1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:13,520 Hello and welcome back to Tracks My name is Andy Gott, and this 2 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,920 is my 7th collection of conversations with fascinating 3 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,440 queer people about the soundtracks of their lives. 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,720 All right, this sounds random, but I've always had a bit of a 5 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,800 curiosity for nuns. I don't think I'm alone there. 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,640 The monochrome habits, the soundtracks to masterpieces like 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,920 The Sound of Music and Sister Act, and that very earnest 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,360 devotion and service to others just fascinates me. 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,920 That said, queer people have especially felt the sting of 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,080 organised religion throughout history and suddenly continue to 11 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,000 right now. In Sydney, a long de consecrated 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,640 church was on the verge of being transformed into a haven of 13 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,720 queer performance before just last week, religious pressure 14 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,000 groups saw the landlord buckle and shut the space down. 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,959 And that is a story for another time. 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,000 But ultimately, queerness and religion remain a complicated 17 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,640 mix, which is one of the many reasons I'm fascinated by the 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,560 fabulous transgression of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. 19 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,320 And side note, transgressive is the word of the day in this 20 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:24,760 episode. Founded in San Francisco in the 21 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,520 late 70s, their mission statement to this day is to 22 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,920 promote the expiation of stigmatic guilt through the 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,320 promulgation of universal joy. And if you've spotted a gaggle 24 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,760 of bearded nuns in your local Pride parade, it's highly likely 25 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,520 that they are sisters of this very same order. 26 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,400 Chapters exist and thrive all around the world in service of 27 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,680 local communities, and there is likely no sister more visible 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,840 than Sister Roma In her words. The most photographed men in the 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,960 world, in the internet's words. A globally recognised activist 30 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,720 fundraiser and glamorous clown, Roma took her vows in the early 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,360 80s when the work of the fledgling order was quickly 32 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,400 being refocused to the front lines of HIV AIDS and has since 33 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,600 helped raise millions of dollars for LGBTQ plus causes worldwide. 34 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,960 She's also one of the many stars of Hunky Jesus, the new 35 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,280 documentary taking a look at the annual San Francisco festival of 36 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,720 the same name, which celebrates and raises funds for the work of 37 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,840 the sisters through two major pageants, Hunky Jesus and Foxy 38 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,320 Mary. The documentary premiered at the 39 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,680 BFI Flair in London earlier this year and is making its way 40 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,840 around international queer film festivals. 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,480 Do yourself a favour and catch it when you can. 42 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,200 Tracks of our Queers soldiers on as a totally independent 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,240 production and if I had more time or resources, I would love 44 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,680 nothing more than to interview more queers. 45 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,480 There are so many fascinating conversations to be had out 46 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,560 there. If you would like to support my 47 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,600 fun little gay side hustle, you can donate or subscribe at the 48 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,720 Buy Me a Coffee link in the episode show notes. 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,640 And in a time when we're all tightening our belts, I thank 50 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:03,720 you very much in advance. Over to Sister Roma. 51 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,600 Sister Roma, welcome to Tracks of our Queers. 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,600 Thank you so much. Tell me about your earliest 53 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,800 musical memory. If you can, please tell me what 54 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,960 might have been playing at home when you were growing up. 55 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,600 What are those kind of earliest memories of music you can 56 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:28,360 recall? I am a toddler, like maybe less 57 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,840 than five years old. I'm sitting in the car next to 58 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,640 my mom. She's driving and the radio is 59 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:38,680 on and of course there's no car seat, no seat belt. 60 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,600 This was back in the day and this song downtown by Petula 61 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,640 Clark was like at the top of the shards and it came on the radio. 62 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,640 Next thing I know, I'm singing along. 63 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:13,280 Like I literally was living for this song downtown where all the 64 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,920 lights are bright downtown. I want to go. 65 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:21,440 And I I can remember the look at my mom's face looking over at me 66 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,720 car seat kind of just going, what is you, you want to live 67 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,160 downtown? And like, yes, like I just 68 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,840 always knew. That is really my probably my 69 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:35,840 first musical memory. I really think that song is like 70 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,360 a bat signal for little queer boys when they hear those 71 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,520 keywords. Downtown lights are bright. 72 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Queer boys of any generation, When they hear that song, 73 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,080 they're like, that's, that's me. I want to do that. 74 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,520 And I can imagine there's many mums like yours looking at their 75 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,480 child with a side eye being like, what's going on here? 76 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,880 Right. Who have I created what is 77 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,880 happening and it turned out to be very prophetic and accurate. 78 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,600 And tell me about when, like, as you were growing a bit older 79 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,520 through childhood, how else were you discovering music? 80 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,480 How and where were you absorbing music from? 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:13,400 I remember when 40 fives were a big thing and I started getting 82 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,200 my own money, like in birthday cards or doing little chores 83 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,640 around the house and my mom and I would go shopping and we would 84 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,400 go to the department store and I, we'd always end up in front 85 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,400 of the rack of 45 records. And that was better than being 86 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,080 in a candy store for me, looking at those 40 fives, picking them 87 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,680 up and remembering the songs that I'd heard on the radio and 88 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,080 having the ability to take them home and own them. 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,960 One of the 1st 40 fives that I ever owned was Leaving on a Jet 90 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,400 Plane by Peter, Paul and Mary. I'm leaving on a jet plane. 91 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,040 My friends and I played that record literally until it was 92 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,600 worn through be it was the anthem of my entire childhood. 93 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,800 And then some of the 1st 40 fives that I remember buying 94 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,680 with my own money were Tell Me Something Good by Rufus and 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:14,680 Shahid Khan. Tell good. 96 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:21,120 Tell me that you love me again, wild thing, which which was 97 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,880 another moment to give my mother pause. 98 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,280 She's like, you want this? I'm like, yes, this is I love 99 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:28,560 this song wild thing. I think I love you. 100 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,160 So those are some of the 1st 40 fives that I remember owning. 101 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,280 And then in junior high school, we actually had a radio station. 102 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,240 So I was a DJ during the second period, the second lunch break. 103 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:54,400 And that was also really pivotal and turned out to be a course 104 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,840 that I would go down. I mean, I've been a regular on 105 00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:01,280 radio and shows and things for, you know, most of my adult life. 106 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:03,440 So it was really crazy. So where? 107 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,720 Where was home for you growing up? 108 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,720 So I was born and raised in Grand Rapids, MI was born in 109 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,520 December of 1962. That's where I grew up. 110 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,000 And I think we're going to get to it in one of your selections 111 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,760 later. But the the the trope, if you 112 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,760 will, of a young queer person feeling this magnetic pole to 113 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,880 the city is one of my favourite tropes because it's just such as 114 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,080 I just love everyone's stories about it. 115 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,720 And and what I've already heard here in some of your musical 116 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,720 selections is that was coming through strong downtown. 117 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,040 I'm leaving on a jet plane. Why and how? 118 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,360 Tell me about that pole you started to feel from Grand 119 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,600 Rapids towards San Francisco. Paint that picture for me. 120 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,280 Well, I must have felt like I couldn't wait to get out of 121 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,520 there. I mean, if you really stopped 122 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,880 and thought about it and the songs that I loved in the music 123 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,240 choices. But I do feel like in retrospect 124 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,160 that it was a very nice place to grow up and it's a nice place to 125 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,840 be from. I actually really enjoyed my 126 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,120 childhood. I loved great school, junior 127 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,640 high, high school. I absolutely loved high school. 128 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,720 But I did always sort of feel, like you said, drawn to lights, 129 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,320 concrete, skyscrapers. I wanted to be around people and 130 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,360 action and I wanted to. I was always attracted to the 131 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,080 seamier side of things. I did a lot of reading in 132 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,520 addition to listening to music. So I read some things that most 133 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,200 kids probably aren't supposed to read, but I would sneak and read 134 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,400 them anywhere. So I became pretty promiscuous 135 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,640 in my, in my approach to life very early on. 136 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,919 People used to tell me, especially in college, finally 137 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,039 they'd look at me and be like, you look like you should live in 138 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:42,559 California. And I didn't even think about 139 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,520 California. I always, because I grew up in 140 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,360 Grand Rapids, MI, if you go around the lake for a few hours, 141 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,120 you end up in Chicago. And that as a kid, that's where 142 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:51,920 we went. I had an aunt and uncle and 143 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,960 cousins there. And then we would go there on 144 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,800 school field trips. My family would go there to go 145 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,840 shopping or get culture to see shows, and then when I got old 146 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,960 enough, I would go there for the nightlife. 147 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,640 So I thought, I'm gonna move to Chicago for sure. 148 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,400 But then my junior year in college, I came to San Francisco 149 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,760 to visit a friend of mine who had graduated the year before 150 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,040 me, and it was over. I was like this place, first of 151 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,920 all, in the Midwest, the whole part where I'm from is was so 152 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,800 flat and The Four Seasons were extreme. 153 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,760 And I came to San Francisco and it was beautiful and sunny and 154 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,880 the most incredible place I've ever seen in my life. 155 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,080 You're either looking at this incredible skyline or out at the 156 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,320 beautiful water or up at the mountains or the bridges. 157 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:40,960 And I was surrounded by hundreds of thousands of people just like 158 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,560 me for the first time in my life. 159 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,440 And I just knew that I was going to go back there. 160 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,760 And I told everybody, I said I'm finishing school and I'm moving 161 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,600 to, I said California for a long time. 162 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,240 I didn't say San Francisco at first. 163 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,280 I sort of played it off. Am I going to go to LA or San 164 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:57,880 Francisco? But I knew I was going to go to 165 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,280 San Francisco. Did you know that by saying San 166 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,520 Francisco instead of California that that might signal something 167 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,960 that people would pick up on? Absolutely. 168 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,440 So that was obvious. Because it's in my hometown. 169 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,400 There were two gay bars with no windows, and they published the 170 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,400 names of people who were busted doing illicit homosexual 171 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,480 activity in the paper and put their pictures. 172 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:20,520 Yeah. I mean, it was not. 173 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:23,360 It was very conservative. It was a very Christian Reformed 174 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,440 town. I grew up in a very white 175 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,320 neighbourhood. My high school had two black 176 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,240 people in it. It wasn't until I went to 177 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,040 college and started going to the gay bars downtown Grand Rapids 178 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,280 where I met these. Amazing people of colour, black 179 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,240 people specifically, who actually became some of my 180 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,680 closest friends. And I was like, Oh my God, I 181 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:47,680 love this culture. I love their energy, I love 182 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:49,360 their music, I love their humour. 183 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,160 Like it just so. It was like I was immediately in 184 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,720 love with a whole nother community that I've never known 185 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,840 before. Is is there a track or an album 186 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,880 which reminds you of that particular time you just 187 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,560 described? 1000% So my 2 closest friends 188 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:09,000 were Bobby Washington who was this girl, and Floyd who was my 189 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,240 partner in crime. He, he and I terrorised the gay 190 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,160 scene in Grand Rapids, MI and all up and down the coast of 191 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,120 Michigan. Saugatuck. 192 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,520 We went to Chicago, we went to Toronto on Amtrak together. 193 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,360 We had so much fun and we were rather notorious honestly. 194 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,640 And when Princess Purple Rain came out. 195 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,440 I was in college and I couldn't wait to get my hands on that 196 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,640 soundtrack. I mean, it was literally hot off 197 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,240 the presses. And I bought it and I went to 198 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,800 Bobby's house and Floyd met us there and we listened to that 199 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,080 album together. And it was, it was one of those 200 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,280 experiences that it's sort of I felt like we were bound together 201 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,640 for life, like like a life changing thing that we shared 202 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,800 together. We couldn't believe how good it 203 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,080 was. We couldn't believe how much we 204 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,840 loved it and we just felt really connected and especially close 205 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,000 to each other. I love that selection. 206 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,400 I've been thinking a lot lately about the track, particular off 207 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:25,110 the album I Would Die For You. I think it's just such an 208 00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:32,630 amazing mix of like religion and gender and love and lots of 209 00:12:32,630 --> 00:12:34,710 topics that I'm sure that we might cover in this conversation 210 00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:36,030 today. But I love that you picked 211 00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:37,550 Purple Rain. Well, I have to. 212 00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:42,200 I also would love to share that Prince became someone that I 213 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,400 loved because around that same time I went to a house party in 214 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:56,640 college and the song When You Were Mine came on, which is very 215 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,480 homoerratic and it plays with gender and sexuality and love 216 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,360 and relationships and the beat is so funky and contagious. 217 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,200 I kept going over to the stereo and picking the needle up and 218 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,200 playing it again until finally people started screaming at me 219 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,640 to stop playing that damn song. But it remains one of my 220 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,520 favourite Prince songs. I really love it. 221 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,200 So Prince is definitely yeah. Is this so good? 222 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,200 Right. I actually first discovered it 223 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,440 through Cyndi Lauper's cover. I thought that was her song when 224 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,400 I heard her cover. And then I realised that he 225 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,040 wrote it and she covered it. Yeah. 226 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,560 You're so cute, Yeah. Sorry but I do love about her 227 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:45,160 cover that she because I think that was also early 80s and she 228 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,520 didn't change the gender pronouns so even her version 229 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,680 remained quite queer. Talking about this like bisexual 230 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,080 man. Anyway, love them both. 231 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,080 I ever love Cindy too. I've actually met Cindy many 232 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,200 times that she's fantastic. I've got more questions for you 233 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,320 about this move to San Francisco, but I think we're 234 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,800 going to save them for your track. 235 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,200 I'm going to skip a bit ahead to the Sisters of Perpetual 236 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,360 Indulgence. So please tell me, Sister Roma, 237 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,720 where and how did you first encounter the sisters? 238 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,360 How did you first encounter them? 239 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,400 Well, I was at a video bar in the Castro after work. 240 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,880 It was happy hour. So I had I had a job in the 241 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,680 financial district in downtown San Francisco and I was standing 242 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,320 around the tables with friends. We'd all just gotten out of 243 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:31,800 work. We were like in our little power 244 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,560 ties and button down shirts and drinking 2 for one cocktails. 245 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,400 And they played music videos and they also paid played clips of 246 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,800 like popular clips from designing women in the shows at 247 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,840 the time that were very queer and popular. 248 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,760 And all of a sudden the front door of the bar, it's a it's a 249 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,880 very well known bar. It's still there on Castro and 250 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,480 18th St. It's one of the most famous 251 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:56,320 queer bars in in the city. The front door flew open and in 252 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,200 came this character like I had never seen before. 253 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,960 It was definitely a drag queen, but they also looked like sort 254 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,920 of a showgirl and a clown and a nun. 255 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,440 They walked in smiling. Gregarious walked up to the 256 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,560 bartender. The bartender knew them by name. 257 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,960 They hugged and the bartender bought them a drink. 258 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,720 Refused to take money for it, you know. 259 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,840 And she was just smiling at everyone. 260 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,600 And for the first time, honestly, that entire early 261 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,480 evening, everyone's attention was off the video screens and 262 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,160 everybody stopped cruising and all eyes were on her, including 263 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,880 mine. I was like what, Who is this? 264 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,360 What is going on? And she walked up to me and 265 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,960 addressed me by name and said hello. 266 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:42,560 And I was like, do I know you? And she said, it's me, Norman. 267 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,120 Norman was like my great friend. We had been friends for like 268 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,320 over a year at that point. Like we were carousing buddies. 269 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,840 We were did all sorts of he was a bartender and a Fillmore. 270 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,440 So we did all kinds of crazy things together. 271 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,000 And I, I said, what are you doing? 272 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,560 And he said, I'm sister luscious lashes. 273 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,720 I'm one of the sisters. And I'm like, who are the 274 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,080 sisters? He goes the sisters, the 275 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,600 perpetual indulgence. And that was honestly the moment 276 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,280 that changed my life forever. I mean, Norman introduced me to 277 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,400 the sisters. I learned about the important 278 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,800 work that they've done. I was so impressed immediately 279 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,000 by their bravery, their fearlessness and their 280 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,880 compassion. And some people don't know this, 281 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,120 but the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence were actually the 282 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,120 first group ever to produce what is considered one of the world's 283 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,040 first safer sex pamphlets. It was illustrated and used 284 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,600 humour in plain language to educate the community about how 285 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,160 to avoid sexually transmitted diseases. 286 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,880 And the sisters were also one of the first groups to hold a 287 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,280 fundraiser for people who were sick and dying of HIV and AIDS. 288 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,920 And I, I just fell in love with the group and started to 289 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,200 volunteer with them just as a boy, doing different things like 290 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,520 selling pom poms at A at a charity basketball game and 291 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,960 things. And then one day Luscious said 292 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:03,960 why don't you just try the makeup? 293 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:08,079 And I did and I was hooked. That was it. 294 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,560 I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, but the sisters the order 295 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,079 was founded in 1981, Is that correct? 296 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:19,200 79. So it's 1979 now, that's 297 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,720 obviously pre HIV AIDS, but only just. 298 00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:27,200 And so the order wasn't founded to offer compassion to people 299 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,200 with HIV AIDS. But the timing of that is 300 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,920 remarkable to me because just a few years earlier, the order had 301 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,680 got set up, and that just feels like divine intervention, if you 302 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,600 will, that it wasn't set up for that purpose, but it was there 303 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,480 when all of a sudden people in the queer community desperately 304 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,240 needed this love and compassion and support. 305 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,240 Completely I so the sisters, honestly, just between you and 306 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,960 me started because these gay guys had some old nuns habits 307 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,080 that one of the Co founders, sister vicious power hungry 308 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,800 bitch had borrowed from some nuns in a convent in Iowa and 309 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,880 said that they were doing a production of the Sound of 310 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,800 Music. So she gave him all these nuns 311 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,800 habits. And they were sitting around on 312 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,240 Easter weekend in 1979, completely bored with the the 313 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,720 entire aesthetic of the male gay community. 314 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,160 Everybody was wearing leather coats and flannel shirts, 315 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,560 handlebar moustaches. It was very they called it the 316 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,760 Castro clown actually. So they said, well, he goes, 317 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,000 well I have these nuns habits. So these guys, they had roots in 318 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,400 the radical fairies and the coquettes and the angels of 319 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,680 light. Like they were very crunchy, you 320 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,760 know, fairy guys. Anyway, so they said let's put 321 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,840 on these non habits and go fuck with people. 322 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,120 And they did. They went out all over the 323 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:51,400 Castro and out to the gay beach. And Sister Vish says that 324 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,560 everywhere they went they caused like psychological car crashes. 325 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,680 No one had ever seen men. And at the time, most of them 326 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,520 did not wear makeup, but they had facial hair and dressed as 327 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,160 nuns. And it just caused such a 328 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,000 sensation. And it attracted a few more of 329 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,880 their friends. And they got together and they 330 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,560 came up with the name and actually designed the logo. 331 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,520 And their main focus was on immigration and supporting 332 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,360 people who were, who were immigrants to the country who 333 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,280 were facing challenges. And then it turned to public 334 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,600 safety, which is something that I picked up the torch right 335 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,680 after I joined. But as you mentioned, when HIV 336 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,640 AIDS started to ravage the community in the very early 80s, 337 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,680 in my opinion, that's kind of when the sisters really found 338 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,880 their focus and their drive. I'm telling you that the hand of 339 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,280 God is involved in all of this coming together. 340 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,840 I'm telling you there's divine intervention. 341 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,160 But also what I love is that from look at this from any angle 342 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,680 and there is transgression. So, you know, you talk about the 343 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,240 Castro clone like queer communities all around the world 344 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,080 have this kind of clone figure. But like to to a clone, a drag 345 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,720 queen is transgressive, but to a glamorous drag queen, like, you 346 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,360 know, kind of like a lip sync stunning dress on a stage. 347 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:08,640 Drag queen a. The bearded man in a nun's habit 348 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:14,800 is transgressive, so the Sister is transgressive on every level, 349 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,800 even within the queer community, not even thinking about the 350 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,040 straight mainstream community. But through all of this 351 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,040 transgression is compassion and love and service to others and 352 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,440 and care. And I think that's just why 353 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,080 people feel so that's one of many reasons why people feel so 354 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,120 attracted to them. I remember my first exposure to 355 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:38,720 a none of your order was in Manchester, England. 356 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,120 I remember just my jaw-dropping seeing a sister of the 357 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,360 Manchester Order, and now I live in Australia and I've met them 358 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,720 in Sydney. And yeah, the documentary, I 359 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,120 have got to keep plugging. The documentary Hunky Festival, 360 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,360 which tells the story of the sisters and how they were 361 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:58,920 founded, does a really great job of explaining how it started for 362 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,360 this very specific use case in San Francisco. 363 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,520 But there's a reason that it's all over the world. 364 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,840 There's a reason that it's universal and that people can 365 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,240 all connect with the work that the sisters do. 366 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,960 Well, I'm glad you mentioned the sisters in Manchester because I 367 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,720 adore the Manchester sisters. I went to Manchester Pride 368 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:22,000 probably about 10 years ago and I, I, I met Lavoie, I met Danny 369 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,560 Beard, I met Licorice Black. I met all of the, the famous 370 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,320 famous, I mean, the, the cheddar gorgeous. 371 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,680 The drag scene in Manchester is incredible, but the entire 372 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,720 community is just alive and vibrant and welcoming. 373 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,160 I had the time of my life there. I also did some sightseeing. 374 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,520 I just, I fell in love with it and it has been my goal really 375 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,200 since like in the last probably 15 years since I'm in my 40th 376 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,000 year. Wow, you. 377 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,760 Can believe that I I've made it a goal to try and meet other 378 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,720 sisters and other orders around the world. 379 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,720 And I can tell you that whether I'm sitting somewhere in the in 380 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:05,240 North Carolina or Kansas City or Orlando, Las Vegas, Atlanta, 381 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,480 Manchester and Sydney or I, I've really been privileged to meet 382 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,160 sisters in Paris. And when you get together with 383 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,280 the sisters and you're sitting around a table at a cafe or 384 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,120 everyone is a completely unique individual and they've all 385 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:22,680 brought their own passions and the things that they love and 386 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,160 the things and their opinion idea of what a sister is. 387 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,920 But at the same time, it feels so familiar. 388 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,200 It's definitely, I believe sisters are born, not made. 389 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,920 And when you're with the group, when you're in Chicago sitting 390 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,960 with a group of sisters, like you can look around and you're 391 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,240 like, oh, I know which sister you are. 392 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,680 You know, like there are sisters who are, there's sisters who are 393 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,000 very spiritual and crunchy and they love to do blessings and 394 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,360 they love to lit around and be all in the skies, you know, in 395 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,480 the heavens. And then there are other sisters 396 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,600 who are more pragmatic and practical and very stern. 397 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,920 And then there's sisters who are great at running the order, 398 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,040 which is something that I've never been good at. 399 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,600 But there are sisters who are very, they're very organised and 400 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:12,240 they know about requirements and filing and note taking and all 401 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,880 the things that you have to do. It's just it's really 402 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,160 interesting to see that even though they're all different 403 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,280 unique people, they're also the same. 404 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,160 Like a real order of nuns. Like any order of nuns I'm sure 405 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,360 you'd find anywhere in the world. 406 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,640 I would imagine, yeah, except we don't take vows of poverty or 407 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,000 chastity. OK, noted On that topic, yeah. 408 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,200 What percentage of sisters would you say, generally speaking, 409 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:42,040 have experienced a religious upbringing themselves? 410 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,720 Wow. It's really hard to even 411 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,640 estimate because we don't really believe it or not. 412 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,120 And a lot of people who misunderstand the sisters might 413 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,720 be surprised to know that we don't talk about religion that 414 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,280 much. You know, we really don't. 415 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,680 I mean, we welcome everybody any, any race, gender, 416 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,120 sexuality, age. Like if you've are answering a 417 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,440 calling, we are willing to meet you where you are and, and bring 418 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,160 you in and help you through the process. 419 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,320 And sometimes your religion doesn't even come up. 420 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,480 You know, I happen to have been raised Catholic. 421 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,320 I, I was left in the care of nuns at a Catholic adoption 422 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,320 agency. So I was, my mother and father 423 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,960 walked in looking for a child. And my mom says that her eyes 424 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,440 met when I was in the crib and she just knew, you know, I have 425 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,400 a lot of respect for nuns and I honestly have a lot of respect 426 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,880 and appreciation for the important tenets and lessons in 427 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,960 the Bible, you know, and religion. 428 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,520 I believe that religion is important because it's a guide 429 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,520 designed to help people cohabitate and live peacefully 430 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,520 and support and love each other. And the problem for me and for 431 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,040 most sisters, I would say, starts when people decide how 432 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,000 they're going to interpret the word that they're reading and 433 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,240 then weaponize it as a way to tell other people how to live. 434 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,320 When in reality, if you subscribe to any religion or 435 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,160 belief system, that's that dictates the way that you're 436 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,520 supposed to live, not other people. 437 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,000 So when they start to use their religion as a weapon against me 438 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,840 and my community and my lifestyle, that's that's a 439 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,200 problem. I I feel like I'm on a bit of a 440 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,280 journey myself. The last few months where I 441 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,840 have, I've crossed paths with people who are fairly religious 442 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,280 and and have strong faith themselves, and I've had to 443 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,120 interrogate my own conceptions or assumptions of what these 444 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:41,040 people are because these people revealed themselves to be 445 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,720 incredibly loving and compassionate towards queer 446 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,960 people, trans people, gay people. 447 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,680 And it's not, it's not been unusual for them. 448 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,120 In fact, to them, it fits within the tenets of their religion. 449 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:01,240 Like some of the most remarkable religious figures or everyday 450 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,560 people to me are the ones who were just following the tenets 451 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,640 of their religion, which to me, of course, means love for people 452 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,600 like me and you. And yeah, I don't know. 453 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,360 It's just something that's on my mind a lot lately. 454 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:16,320 And it was probably playing on my mind as I watched the 455 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,240 documentary of these sisters who are not based around a religion. 456 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,480 And you don't talk about religion. 457 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720 But community is there, service is there. 458 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,680 People wanting to be with people like them and to do good for the 459 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,920 community is some is like a consistent thread through all of 460 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:32,680 this. Absolutely. 461 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:38,440 I mean, we minister to our community and we care. 462 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,520 I think there isn't a sister on this planet who doesn't look 463 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,920 around and see some injustice and get pissed off. 464 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,960 There isn't a sister on this planet who can pass someone on 465 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,080 the street and see someone in need or see someone who feels 466 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,400 unseen or unloved and at the very least make eye contact and 467 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,000 say hello. And to take it to the extreme, 468 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,760 we get involved, you know, we reach out to these communities. 469 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,440 I have, and many of my sisters have spent every Thanksgiving 470 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,240 and Christmas for the last 40 years serving meals like that's 471 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:17,640 just that to me is the true meaning of those holidays, and I 472 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,800 feel so privileged that I've been able to do that. 473 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,120 Right, so we better jump into your musical selections. 474 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:30,000 We've got a track, an album and an artist, and let's dive into 475 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,520 your track. What did you pick and why? 476 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:37,440 So we've talked quite a bit about me deciding that I was 477 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,760 going to move to San Francisco. And you know, when you're from a 478 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,240 small town, quite often people will, when you tell them that 479 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,080 you're going to move somewhere, anywhere, especially if it's a 480 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,320 big city on the other side of the country, they might say 481 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,800 something like, well, you'll be back. 482 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,760 You know, because people do that. 483 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,200 Sometimes they leave and they try it and they, you know, they 484 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,680 don't make it. They do come back. 485 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,400 So a lot of people said to me, well, you'll be back. 486 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,360 And then when I finally did tell people, especially gay people, 487 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,480 lesbian, that I was moving to San Francisco, some people even 488 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:11,960 said, well, you're going to get AIDS. 489 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,840 And I, that was a horrible thing to say to someone, but you know, 490 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,480 they, they may have been concerned, but there was so 491 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,160 still so much stigma and mystery and unknowns about the disease. 492 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,920 It wasn't, people didn't understand it. 493 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,640 And it seemed like in Grand Rapids, MI it, we still sort of 494 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,080 felt somehow immune to it. There weren't a lot of cases 495 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,680 that we were aware of. So I was moving to the epicentre 496 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,600 of it. But in reality, where I was 497 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,960 moving was the epicentre of HIV, AIDS education and prevention. 498 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,840 I mean, it was all happening in San Francisco and New York. 499 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,520 There probably could not have been a better place to move 500 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,600 because people were acutely aware of what was going on and 501 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,080 what how it was affecting them and fighting for our lives. 502 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,720 And then to meet the sisters who were pioneers in all of that was 503 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,680 another very, very lucky thing to have happened to me. 504 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,880 But facing those kind of comments and then also literally 505 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,640 knowing one person in San Francisco, I mean, I, I had 506 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,360 never been to California before and I other than that one trip 507 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,080 and I decided that nothing could stop me. 508 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,320 And there was a song by Corey Hart called Never Surrender. 509 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,280 And it's so powerful and it became my anthem. 510 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:40,480 Just a little more time is all resting and I played it all the 511 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:46,000 time because I was determined to make this move against all odds 512 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,160 and make it work. He had a really big hit also 513 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,280 called. I wear my sunglasses at night, 514 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,200 which which other people might know even a little bit better. 515 00:29:54,200 --> 00:30:09,040 I wear then breathe. But Never Surrender, I believe 516 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,600 was one of his first hits. And it became my anthem for the 517 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,760 next part of my my life. Like I had grown up and gone to 518 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,520 school, graduated from college and made a decision to leave my 519 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,800 hometown, my mother and everything that I knew and go 520 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,320 all the way to California. And Corey Hart's Never Surrender 521 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,480 was my anthem for. That it's so cinematic. 522 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,160 I'm picturing it as the soundtrack to the scene of you 523 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,280 moving. I love it. 524 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,200 I just got to go back to that, those comments that you had from 525 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,320 people, so you know, you got them from you even got them from 526 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,680 queer people about, well, you'll get AIDS like, you know, really 527 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,320 scary stuff. But what I'm hearing in, I'm 528 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,320 probably imprinting here, but I had, I remember people saying to 529 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,480 me, you'll be back. I remember that so vividly. 530 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,240 And at the time I that was just fuel to me. 531 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,240 I was like, you don't you dare. I'm never going to come back 532 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,840 now. And the irony is I've moved as 533 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,280 far away from the UK as possible, perhaps living in 534 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,480 Australia. But to say you're going to get 535 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,720 AIDS, I hear fear in that. I hear fear in that voice for 536 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,960 you perhaps, but also maybe still a little bit of envy and 537 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,720 jealousy that you are still getting out and you are still 538 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,080 escaping and moving to the big smoke. 539 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,680 Yeah. I wonder how many people who do 540 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,800 move to the big city have similar comments of you'll be 541 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,440 back. Yeah, I mean, I think there's 542 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,120 some of all of that in there, and it depends on who I was 543 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,400 telling. I mean, there were definitely 544 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,840 people who were jealous, but I mean, look at me, who wouldn't 545 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,600 be jealous of this. But you know, that's also sort 546 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,560 of the part of the small town mentality. 547 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,240 I, I always felt like the whole queer community and going to the 548 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,560 gay bars was a lot like being back in high school. 549 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,400 There was a complete pecking order. 550 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,840 There was clicks. There was, it was very Peyton 551 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,360 Place, which is another reference that you may not know 552 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,560 and some of your younger listeners won't know, but it was 553 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,240 a soap opera about a small town. And they were the people were 554 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,480 vicious and that, you know, there's a lot of that that went 555 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,880 on, but there was also just a lot of of the unknown and fear, 556 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,640 fear, fear, fear. When we go to a new place, we 557 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,720 take whoever we are with us. So it's, I feel like it's so 558 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,080 natural and expected for people from small towns. 559 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,360 They congregate in big cities and they bring that small town 560 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,200 behaviour with them. But I think the big city 561 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,640 eventually shakes it out of most of us as we adjust to a 562 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,680 different ecosystem, a different way of living. 563 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,600 But how does that, how does that song make you feel when you 564 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:45,440 listen to it now? Oh. 565 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,960 It brings back all of those memories and it makes me very 566 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:54,400 proud because I, I did it. I moved and I literally never 567 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,640 looked back. And in just a few short years, 568 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,160 I, I, I, well, within two years, I'd met the sisters and joined 569 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,600 the order. And then I mean, I became the 570 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,960 Grand Marshall of San Francisco Pride Parade. 571 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,440 You know, the city has been the most incredible place for me. 572 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,440 The opportunities that have been provided in the way that the San 573 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,440 Francisco has embraced me and I've loved San Francisco back. 574 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,080 I love it today as much as the day that I moved here. 575 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,680 There is absolutely no place else on earth like it. 576 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,120 I've been to Sydney. I think Sydney is gorgeous. 577 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,240 I think the people in Sydney were exceptionally beautiful. 578 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,240 I thought it was weird, almost. Do you notice that? 579 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,480 I have lived there for many years. 580 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,640 I've actually just moved away. Yes, there is a specific 581 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,560 aesthetic quality to many Sydney siders. 582 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,160 Yes. It was like, what the fuck's in 583 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,120 the water? But, you know, there's a 584 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,320 beautiful city and it's very similar to San Francisco. 585 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,720 It's in the water, you know, and, but San Francisco is just 586 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,440 so special. And the thing that really makes 587 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,480 it special is the people. It's the people who really get 588 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680 it. And there are people who come 589 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,120 from small towns. And somehow San Francisco 590 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,880 manages to make you throw away all of those inhibitions and 591 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,480 preconceived ideas and notions. And hopefully if you really 592 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,159 embrace it, it it just, it's so freeing. 593 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,320 I can't really go past this without referencing. 594 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,639 I know it's such an enormous cliche, but this was my gateway 595 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:19,000 to San Francisco like many others. 596 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,760 The Tales of the City novels or Armistead Maupin who is like a 597 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,679 dream interviewee of mine for this podcast. 598 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,400 Oh well, you have to. I mean, Armistead is the most 599 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,400 charming. Brilliant, humble, sweet man. 600 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,760 And if I can give you a little humble brag, he was at the Hunky 601 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,600 Jesus documentary premiere. At B Flair in London. 602 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,719 Fantastic, yes. He's a he's a sweetheart. 603 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,199 It was great to see him. We missed him in San Francisco. 604 00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,960 Because he is so San Francisco, for sure. 605 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,040 Yeah. But his books were like a, a 606 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,040 gateway to me to not just like life for queer people in the 607 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,880 70s, but life in San Francisco. And I think that Vector, you 608 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,040 know, the Marianne Singleton character is so genius because 609 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,800 she is all of us in those small towns. 610 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,160 She, as she moves to San Francisco, we're kind of 611 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:15,520 distracted by all the fabulous people around her. 612 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,440 And we think she's the boring one, but we are her. 613 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,160 We're looking at the city through her eyes. 614 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,720 And those books are so special, not just to me, but to queer 615 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:26,480 people all over the world. And they've done such a great 616 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,840 job at representing San Francisco, I think. 617 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,720 What do you think about San Francisco today? 618 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,080 I know there's a lot of news and information and opinions about 619 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,440 how the city has evolved, you know, with tech giants and 620 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,120 struggles with homelessness. Like, what do you think about 621 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,880 that San Francisco spirit and how does it show up today in 622 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,400 2026? Well, I've seen a lot of change, 623 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,160 obviously. I mean, it's just insane how 624 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,640 much bigger the city has become. There's a whole area around the 625 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,800 ballpark, the new ballpark and things that that was never 626 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,640 developed when I lived here. There was a club on Townsend St 627 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,680 that was called Townsend. That was literally the Townsend. 628 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,200 Now it's just in the middle of this huge, expansive new part of 629 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,920 San Francisco that's over on the other side, and it's very 630 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,200 expensive. That is true. 631 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,840 So it's not as easy. It seems like it used to feel 632 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,520 like in the 70s, eighties, even into the 90s, like people could 633 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:32,440 do jobs here and survive on very with and not work that much. 634 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,520 I used to be like, does anybody have a job here? 635 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,080 Because I did. I always worked. 636 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,120 There were people. You could be a hairdresser or a 637 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,440 bartender and you still can be and make great, great money. 638 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,840 I mean, bartenders and hairdressers make a great 639 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,760 living, but you could work retail and you could be a 640 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,160 server. I mean, people survived. 641 00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:54,000 It was a lot easier to survive. Here so art could flourish as 642 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,400 well. When people have time, they can 643 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,640 make art and. That's what they were doing. 644 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,360 This was this has always been the type of place that attracted 645 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,560 beatniks and hippies and artists and people came here to to paint 646 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,440 and to create. And it's not as easy as it was 647 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,520 because quite often those people aren't that interested in making 648 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,040 a lot of money, so they really can't afford to live here 649 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,480 anymore, which is a tragedy. We have such amazing artists in 650 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,960 our community and this San Francisco is a place of so many 651 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,520 firsts. So many things started here in 652 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,760 our community. This is the first place where we 653 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,480 had an openly elected gay official, Harvey Milk. 654 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,680 This is the place that we saw the first same sex marriage. 655 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,760 Here's where the Gay Men's Chorus, Dykes on Bikes, the 656 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,920 Sisters Perpetual Indulgence, the Imperial Court, all of these 657 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,280 incredible institutions started right here in San Francisco. 658 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,160 So it's always been a place where people came and somebody 659 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,440 had this idea and it turned into a worldwide movement or 660 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,640 organisation. And that spark is still here as 661 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,320 well. We still do attract those 662 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,680 people. And I think with what's 663 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,520 happening in the United States and, and specifically in the 664 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,320 South and some of the like Florida, Texas, Tennessee, it's 665 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,840 become increasingly unsafe actually to be queer to do, to 666 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,880 be trans in any of those places is becoming illegal. 667 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,160 So I feel like once again, hopefully San Francisco will be 668 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,600 this bright beacon on the hill and we're here. 669 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,560 We're ready to accept our community from places where they 670 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,160 don't feel safe or where they just can't be them true their 671 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,280 true authentic cells because that is still the norm here. 672 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,840 We should jump into your album. What album did you pick Sister 673 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,000 Roma and why? The Rocky Horror Picture Show. 674 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,080 Are you kidding me? I mean, it's astounding. 675 00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:56,440 Time is fleeting. Madness takes its toll. 676 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:03,000 That soundtrack has everything. That movie was in high school. 677 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:08,760 So I, I, my friends and I would go to a basketball game or a 678 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,960 football game and sometimes afterwards they would have a 679 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,040 dance and we might stop by. But by midnight, you better 680 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,400 believe that my closest circle of friends and I had our butts 681 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,720 in the seats at the movie theatre for the midnight showing 682 00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,880 of Rocky Horror Picture Show. I didn't even realise at the 683 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:31,160 time why it spoke to me so much. It has drag, it has transgender 684 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,920 messages, it has homoerotic messages, it has messages about 685 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,240 freedom of expression. It's about being different, 686 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:43,240 being othered, being confused, being lost to be to being. 687 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,320 It's just it's so brilliant, so brilliant and and contagious and 688 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,520 and catchy and it just we I bought the soundtrack, listen to 689 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,400 it. My friends would come over, we 690 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,800 would go down to the basement and we would act it out and each 691 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,960 one of us would take a different character and we would go 692 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,240 through the go through the entire album and act out the 693 00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,120 entire movie and mean. That's how much we saw it. 694 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,920 I'd come home and then and the next day my mom would be down in 695 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,440 the laundry room and she would uncuff the my jeans and rice 696 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,480 would fall out. Did you Do you know about? 697 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,640 Have you ever seen the Rocky Horror Party show in? 698 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,000 The movie theatre. I've heard about these insane 699 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,600 community gatherings and productions, but I haven't been 700 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,880 to it myself. Well, it was a call and response 701 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,200 sort of thing almost because there was parts, it's in the 702 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,840 movie like they, they end up getting caught in the rain and 703 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,280 they so they hide under these newspapers and they make their 704 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,840 way to the Frankenstein place. So if you're in the audience 705 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,160 back then you would bring a newspaper and put it over your 706 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,480 head. And then you'd also bring squirt 707 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,520 guns and you would start squirting people all around the 708 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,280 audience. So it felt like it was raining. 709 00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:58,840 And the the movie opens at a wedding. 710 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,720 Please. Don't tell me to can it, Janet. 711 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,160 I have one thing to say and that's damn it. 712 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,560 Janet I. Love you. 713 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,960 So that turns into a funeral. It's so brilliant. 714 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:15,000 But at the wedding scene, everybody would throw rice in 715 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,360 the theatre. And then there's there's 716 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,040 different, there's all these different moments there. 717 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,200 He like the line. I see you shiver with Antici. 718 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,720 And the audience would scream, say it. 719 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,120 He would say patient. You know, it was it was it was a 720 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,200 sporting event and it's of its own kind. 721 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,720 And we had it down. We were the cheerleaders. 722 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,560 We were the the A-Team. We were the best and sometimes 723 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,480 rival high schools would even go and sit in different sections 724 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,280 and start squirting each other and screaming. 725 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,960 I mean, it was it was a scene. But in the morning, my mother 726 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,480 would open my uncuffed my jeans and rice would fall out. 727 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,960 And she'd be like, you went and saw that goddamn movie again. 728 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,400 Don't get strung out by the way I look. 729 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,920 Don't judge a book by its cover. Realising now, I mean, looking 730 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,960 back at Frankenfurter, the most beautiful, sweet transvestite 731 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:08,720 that ever lived, I mean that sort of became me in a way. 732 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,800 The beauty of Tim Curry's face that I make up the lips. 733 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,160 We were watching clips of the film last night and like, the 734 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,880 deep shade of lipstick gloss that whoever was the makeup 735 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,480 artist applied to those perfect lips in 1975 should be 736 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,520 applauded. The makeup is spectacular. 737 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:33,120 Yeah. Makeup is spectacular, the 738 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,680 costumes were incredible, and the music. 739 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,760 It really. Does it's own today? 740 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,480 I mean, there's, I mean Meatloaf was in it for God's sakes. 741 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,160 He played Eddie and Meatloaf is one of the best voices of an 742 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,640 entire generation. But that song don't dream it, be 743 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,800 it or he said whatever happened to Faye Ray? 744 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:03,760 Whatever happened to Faye Ray, that delicate satin draped 745 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,360 friend and it and he falls into the pool. 746 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,960 Don't dream it, be it. And then they all, they all, all 747 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,160 the cast comes out and they're, they lift their leg and they're 748 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,760 wearing hose. And it's like, I just, I mean, 749 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,760 I'm still getting emotional thinking about it now. 750 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,640 Like it just filled me with, you know, don't dream it, be it like 751 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,000 be yourself, be however you feel inside. 752 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,000 There's nothing wrong with it. You should be proud of it. 753 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,280 Don't dream it, be it. So that's probably also was a 754 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,680 catalyst for me to eventually move and become who I am today. 755 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,080 It's a command to do something. And I mean, I also love touch 756 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,920 and touch and touch me. And there's a light, the 757 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,560 Frankenstein place, because that voice is just so spectacular. 758 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,680 I am amazed by so many aspects of this film. 759 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,600 I'm amazed that it even just came to be. 760 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,880 Like it came out of someone's head into this piece of art that 761 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,920 people responded to immediately and then it blew up. 762 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,600 The film spread all around the world. 763 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,080 The soundtrack, the film. How old is the film? 764 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,440 Is it? It's got to be like 50 years old 765 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,920 or something, right? But it still feels, I feel like 766 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,000 I've said this word a lot in this conversation, but it still 767 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,120 feels transgressive. It still feels shocking. 768 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,480 Or like when when Frankfurter comes down the elevator and and 769 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,200 takes the coat off and reveals the iconic costume underneath, 770 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,800 it still feels shocking, even though I'm not shocked. 771 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,480 I'm I'm still like gasping. And the power of that film 772 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,560 through all of the evolutions we've been through in society 773 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,200 with like gender nonconformity and queer acceptance. 774 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,080 And but this film in the mid 70s was just treating like 775 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,240 bisexuality as the default, celebrating gender, non 776 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:56,480 conformity and weirdness and otherness, all the things that 777 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:57,960 you already listed. It's thrilling. 778 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,480 And then the to back it up with that, the, the, the drums and 779 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,800 the bass and the what do you come? 780 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,880 It is thrilling. Still to this day, it still 781 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,360 thrills me. And then with, like you 782 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,520 mentioned, when they all run around the castle late at night, 783 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,800 start going into each other's bedrooms and messing around and 784 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,600 it's all shot through gauze. And like, men are with men and 785 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,600 women are with women and vice versa. 786 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,760 And it launched the career of Susan Sarandon, for God's sake. 787 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,640 Before I ever saw the film or interact with the music, I knew 788 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,840 that people would go to the cinema and have these 789 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,240 interactive call and response like gatherings all around the 790 00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:33,440 world. And I've since heard, you know, 791 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,280 about like stories of like my friend's parents would go and do 792 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,480 it in their teens and 20s and they do it in, you know, small 793 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,560 towns like you were living in. This whole ties back to this 794 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,920 what we've already talked about this idea of like finding 795 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,360 community in queerness in your suburbia. 796 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,840 And this is all pre Internet, of course. 797 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,520 And and I love that these traditions spread like the water 798 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,480 guns and the rice throwing. This was spreading around the 799 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,320 world pre Internet so that this was like culture was being 800 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,040 disseminated by this film to different pockets of weirdos all 801 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,880 around the world. And I wonder if one part of it, 802 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,120 apart from the amazing music and the visuals and just how funny 803 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,200 and entertaining it is, is that you were going to that midnight 804 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,040 showing. People are going to this 805 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,240 experience to be with other people like you. 806 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,080 It's like a connection to community again. 807 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,600 The first time that we went to see it, it was a group of we 808 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,760 were all super close friends. My best friend, his name was 809 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,800 Mike at the time. He's changed his name to Blue 810 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,640 since then, but he his mother was very religious. 811 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,000 Then had the 700 Club, which is this like televangelist 812 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,440 programme playing at home all the time. 813 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,320 They were born again Christians and they had, it was like very 814 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,240 part of his, his childhood, his whole upbringing and things. 815 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,000 So we sat there in that movie and he got up and left the 816 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,720 theatre because he was so shocked and, and appalled by it 817 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,400 and just, he just felt like it was bad because he felt like he 818 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,160 was sitting, just sitting there watching it. 819 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,520 And he ended up loving it. And he ended up moving to 820 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,880 Chicago and he ended up changing the name to Blue. 821 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,040 And he finally came out. But it was a process. 822 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,720 But the rest of us took to it almost immediately. 823 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:21,480 And it's I still love it. We're all on our own journey and 824 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,640 this one goes up to you. Blue, thank you for showing up. 825 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,320 Tell me about the artist you picked and why. 826 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,080 Well, I mean, it's Boy George. Come on. 827 00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:34,280 There was absolutely no one like Boy George. 828 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,840 Like Boy George broke onto the scene. 829 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:42,880 I remember sitting in my car in my the parking lot at college 830 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,080 and then turn, turn on the radio. 831 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,200 The DJ is saying the song is by, I don't know, like they say it's 832 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,480 a guy, but it sounds like a woman, but he looks like a 833 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:52,680 woman. But I don't know if it's a guy 834 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,800 or a girl. And they go anyway, do you 835 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,720 really want to hurt me from Culture Club? 836 00:48:07,770 --> 00:48:10,210 And I was like, well, is it a who? 837 00:48:10,290 --> 00:48:12,930 Who is it? And that was really my 838 00:48:12,930 --> 00:48:16,400 introduction to them. Then in 1984 at the Grammy 839 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,040 Awards, Culture Club won best new artist. 840 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,160 And I remember sitting there watching it and they came in via 841 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,160 satellite from London. And there was Boy George and all 842 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:30,480 of his makeup and the hair and everything and said directly 843 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,000 into the camera. Well, America, you know, a good 844 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:39,320 drag queen when you see 1. And I just, like, lost my mind. 845 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,880 I was like, yes, this is the kind of sagatry, this is the 846 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,040 kind of queer representation that we need in this world. 847 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,600 It was the most brazen, bold, viewed by millions of people. 848 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,600 And I was it just spoke to me. And it also, again, was to use 849 00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,040 our word for the day, transformative, right? 850 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:07,160 It literally just I, I and that I became a super fan and danced 851 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,800 to Boy George, requested Boy George. 852 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,760 Every gay club that I went to bought all of the music, all of 853 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,480 the albums. Like I still have not met Boy 854 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,080 George and I've met so many people and I have people who are 855 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:19,760 very, very good friends with them. 856 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,760 And every time it just hasn't worked and I'm dying to meet Boy 857 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:36,360 George. You've touched on so many 858 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,720 amazing parts of Boy George there, but I just want to go 859 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:42,520 back to that radio announcer, that DJ saying like, is it a 860 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:47,120 she, He don't know, whatever. Anyway, his do you really want 861 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,960 to hurt me? That anyway is an important bit 862 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,280 for me because the songs were incredible. 863 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,040 Do you want to hurt me? Karma, Chameleon Time, so many 864 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:02,560 Church of the Poison Mind, so many amazing songs which helped, 865 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:07,080 which forced Boy George into people's consciousness. 866 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,760 It's like he couldn't be ignored. 867 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:16,160 He couldn't be cast off as this frilly, weird, girly gay because 868 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,560 the music was so good it couldn't be ignored. 869 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,600 So then once he was in, it was like we were forced to absorb 870 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,320 this. Well, you weren't forced. 871 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,320 Not all of us were absorbed forced, but you know, kind of 872 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,520 like anyone with a streak of homophobia or judgement. 873 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,320 I was like, Oh no, no, you're here, you're not going anywhere. 874 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,160 You're kind of amazing actually at what you do. 875 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,320 And I've I've spoken to people about poor George a fair bit 876 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,680 lately and I really want to read his autobiography because 877 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:43,680 apparently it's great. I think it's called Take It Like 878 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,600 a Man, which is perfect. But I really do think that he's 879 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,240 quite challenging upbringing. I think he was raised in a 880 00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:56,280 really tough working class Irish environment in London, was 881 00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:01,400 formative to the incredibly confident or externally 882 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:02,680 confident. Maybe he had his own 883 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:07,160 insecurities inside but externally so steely and 884 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,240 powerful. When you watch those early 80s 885 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:14,480 clips, I can't help but think, wow, I wish I was that confident 886 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,840 as a young queer person to stand at the Grammys and say, America, 887 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,760 you know a good drag queen when you see one. 888 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,760 Yes, he had like the pop star bravado that pop stars need, but 889 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,800 there's a steely queer confidence there, which is just 890 00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:32,080 incredible. And a true fearlessness. 891 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,520 But it was the 80s and there were groups like Duran Duran and 892 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,400 a lot of Haircut 100 and Flock of Seagulls where they have the 893 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,680 outrageous crazy hair and they wear eye makeup and there was a 894 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,000 lot of gender fluidity and questioning. 895 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,040 And it was a time of a great awakening. 896 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,560 I feel like I was a very fortunate because first of all, 897 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,520 I believe the 80s is the best music decade in the world. 898 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,360 And I also feel like it was a great time to be coming of age 899 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,000 myself because I there was so much, there was like this new 900 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,200 awareness to the fact that this would all of this was possible. 901 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,880 These people were super talented and successful and everybody 902 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,440 loved their music and they just happened to be weird queer drag 903 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,840 Queens or, or however they looked. 904 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,240 I think it again, it all goes back to fear. 905 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,080 Any kind of prejudice, any kind of oppression, It's because 906 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,120 people are afraid they're going to take our jobs, they're going 907 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,160 to use our bathrooms, you know, like it's like everybody needs 908 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,320 to calm down. But for the most part, it really 909 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:36,440 it was just a beautiful time to be of the unusual, if you will. 910 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,480 Could you list the top three Top five? 911 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,760 Boy George Culture Club. Well, I love Church of the 912 00:52:41,760 --> 00:53:08,320 Poison Mind. The victim, that song is so 913 00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:11,680 gorgeous. The victims we know so well, 914 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,520 that song is just, it's one of those lesser known tracks that 915 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,840 you can just listen to and get lost in that Smokey, sexy voice 916 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,920 and and the words are so powerful. 917 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,760 It's just it might be my favourite point, George. 918 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,920 One of my favourites. It came out about 10 years ago 919 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,720 now, but it's still one of his more contemporary recordings is 920 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,480 he did the collaboration with Mark Ronson. 921 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:39,600 Somebody to love me the. Night across the line. 922 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,600 I used to know her when my house was so. 923 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,040 Low. And it's so beautiful because 924 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:50,840 that voice has aged. It's aged so, so fantastically. 925 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,880 Like it's got deeper and smokier. 926 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,280 All those traits that you've always loved about Boy George's 927 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,200 voice have like heightened and and got deeper, and it's so good 928 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,440 to hear his voice on modern music as well. 929 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,320 I hope he continues to record because that voice is so 930 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,320 incredible. Yeah, so why not, Boy George? 931 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,880 There's no end. Because like, that steely 932 00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,200 bravado, that bravery, that fearlessness, it seems feels 933 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,360 like that's also still there. I don't know if you follow 934 00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,560 follow them on social media, but baby, don't come for the boy. 935 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,600 Honey. Boy George will let you. 936 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,040 Know Can you imagine getting into an Internet war of words 937 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,640 with Boy George? I just delete my entire 938 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,840 Internet. Right, just close the laptop and 939 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:35,680 step away. Turn off the phone. 940 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,640 Sister Roma, this has been a delight. 941 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,400 How could listeners find the hunky festival documentary? 942 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:43,760 Like is it available to the public yet? 943 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,680 I know it premiered at the BF5 Flare, but is it available 944 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,880 online? So in 2023, we filmed a 945 00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:55,040 documentary called Hunky Jesus and it, it's about the Hunky 946 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,200 Jesus contest. It's the sister's anniversary. 947 00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,920 It happens at Easter, which is we mentioned is when the sisters 948 00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:03,560 were founded. And every year about between 949 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:08,560 5:00 to 7:00, maybe sometimes 10,000 people come to Dolores 950 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,480 Park in San Francisco for this crazy Easter week celebration. 951 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,600 It's free to the public. And the highlight of the day are 952 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,480 the contest, the bonnet contest, the Foxy Mirror contest. 953 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,800 But the biggest thing is the Hunky Jesus contest. 954 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,760 So Jennifer Cruth, the director, approached me about making a 955 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:27,760 documentary about it and I was like, well that actually would 956 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,320 be really cool. And we've had people come and 957 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,760 approaches about doing documentaries and things before. 958 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:39,720 But she showed up with like 9 cameras of drones, a big all the 959 00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:44,000 model releases the sound like it was legit a full crew. 960 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:48,200 We were like, OK, this is great. And then it's taken. 961 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,000 You know, it takes a long time to make a movie, especially one 962 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,840 this good. I mean, George Takei does the 963 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,040 narration, does the intro narration and the music is so 964 00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,080 good. John Cameron Mitchell lend us a 965 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,280 song. It's it's such a quality, 966 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,920 beautiful production. And it really captures the 967 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,720 excitement and the crazy creativity and the beauty and 968 00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:11,360 the inclusion, the acceptance, the joy of San Francisco. 969 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,600 So the film is making the rounds. 970 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,680 It made us world premiere in London at BFI Flair. 971 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,680 We had three sold out showings. The reviews have been 972 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,960 incredible. I walked red carpets, did Q&A's. 973 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,720 And so I am now making it my goal to follow that film 974 00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:27,440 everywhere that I can if I'm available. 975 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,040 And so it's it's going to be making more Film Festival 976 00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,800 service, but it will be available everywhere eventually. 977 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:38,320 And we'll see which one of the streaming networks has the nerve 978 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,520 to pick it up and show it to the world it. 979 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,600 Would be great to get you down under for the Melbourne Queer 980 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,520 Festival and the Mardi Gras Film Festival as well. 981 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,560 Perhaps next year, who knows, I'm just throwing that out 982 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,800 there. Oh well, if the film's in it, I 983 00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,840 would love to come to that because I had the time of my 984 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,520 life in Sydney at Mardi Gras. Great. 985 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,320 To hear it and how can people best support the work of the 986 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,360 sisters? If someone's listening, how 987 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,800 would you recommend they can support the work that you do? 988 00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,760 Well, you can see if you have a sister order in or near your 989 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,320 community. If not, you're more than welcome 990 00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,480 to visit the San Francisco Mother House online at 991 00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:16,720 thesisters.org. And I personally am on all 992 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,160 social media platforms at Sister Roma. 993 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,200 So let's chat, reach out, let's get something started. 994 00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:23,960 Let's do it. I love. 995 00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,000 It Sister Roma, you are queer and thank you very much for your 996 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,560 tracks. Yes I am. 997 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:30,560 This is lovely. Thank you so much. 998 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:38,600 This is really fun. You can find links to the hunky 999 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,240 Jesus documentary Sister Roma and the Sisters of Perpetual 1000 00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,400 Indulgence all in the episode show notes. 1001 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,320 Maybe you could find out more about your own local chapter? 1002 00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,200 Tracks of Our Queers is produced by me and He Got on Marajorie 1003 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,840 Land in Australia. And you better strap in for 1004 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,920 season 7. There's some gems to come. 1005 00:57:58,280 --> 00:57:59,040 See you next time.