Hello, welcome everyone to this week's episode of the Lesbian
Supper Club podcast. You are joined by Scarlet today.
I'm feeling very well planned out this morning and I feel like
I've upgraded a bit because today I'm sat in the Spotify
studios and it's all been set up for me.
So there's not been chaos. I've not had living tears
before. I've hit record today.
So we're on a really good, we're on a good trajectory this
morning. I am joined today by
singer-songwriter and music producer Shura, who I have
briefed and said that I will ask to introduce herself, which I'm
not sure that you're amazing at, but I'm going to let you take a
stab at it anyway. I'm I'm the worst at introducing
myself in social situations, but especially in professional
situations, so I'll just go with.
Have you got a fun fact? Like I, I have too many fun
facts. But yeah, my name is Shura.
I am a singer-songwriter and producer and lesbian.
That's always key. We were talking about my twin
earlier. So I'll, I'll, my fun fact will
be I have a twin who is also gay called Nick.
So hi, Nick. You have a twin that looks
mysteriously like you, which I told you when we were getting
coffee that I have known of Shura since you released Touch
back in 2014. And I moved to London in 2017.
And when I was outside Ladbroke Grove station, I saw your
brother, who I thought was you and got a bit of gay panic and
messaged my girlfriend at the time and was like, I'm next to
Shura at Ladbroke Grove station. And then I thought, no, I don't
think that is Shura. And then realized that actually
you have a twin brother who was in your music video of Touch and
talking of touch. I just want to jump straight
into that because to put it lightly or bluntly, or have we
want to put it, I think that was like for me, an iconic moment in
my life. Like I remember I came out when
I was, I came out in 2013, like back end of 2013.
And I've said on the podcast before, came out, knew I was gay
for five years up to like up to coming out, but finally came
out. When I came out, it was like
black and white. As soon as I'd kind of said the
words, I was. So I went from being in the
closet to being like disgracefully unapologetic.
Like I would argue with anyone about gay rights.
Like I went from being scared to being like so fully convicted.
And I remember, and again I've said this a few times, my
girlfriend at the time was at Bath University and she was on
the football team at Bath University.
So it's a classic. Of course there's a load of
lesbians in the football team. And I just remember once we were
all somewhere probably in like the fucking social club having
like 2 LB pints and someone sent in the group chat being like, so
we call lesbians Jans being like, Oh my God, some musician
Jan has just released this music video and it's fucking like
iconic. And we all like pulled up this
video and we were like, Oh my God, there's actual fucking
lesbians on screens in front of us.
And not just like one lesbian that was like a few less.
There wasn't like a token lesbian thing going on.
It was like, no, this is an existence of just like queer
women and queer people just generally in lots of different
phases of their life from lots of different, you know, clearly
backgrounds and cultures. And I think like I, I distinctly
remember it almost becoming like being that young queer person,
especially at the time of when it was released where there was,
that was quite literally fuck all out there really.
That being like this is like was such like a groundbreaking thing
for us to see. And I'm really interested as to
how you got there and really how you got the fucking balls to do
that because I've released this podcast like 3 years ago.
But that was after gay rights become huge on TikTok, like
thanks to TikTok at the time, because I don't know what that
done for like the queer revolution, but everyone was
like at home with their husbands or their wives being in
heterosexual relationships then being like, fuck, I might be
gay. And I think that kind of
spiralled out a lot of like accessibility throughout the
world. You could see people from in
queer situations or queer people a lot more than you could
before, even by comparison to Instagram.
And so that kind of made me feel a bit more confident to do this
podcast and like release something with gay associated to
it, even though my daily life was so proud.
So I want to kind of ask, what was the driving factor behind
that and how did that come about?
And yeah, how did you get it? Get it fucking approved even, or
was that easy? What would that look like?
It's such a, it's just, it's firstly, it was like a very wild
experience also to, to be on the receiving end of because
obviously when you create anything, I don't think you
necessarily expect the reaction that you sometimes get, you
know, and that was just kind of for a, from a lesbian of a
certain age, a kind of iconic, I think the moment and a really
kind of formative experience and that, you know, so it's weird to
have made something that that feels like it was that for
people. But in terms of sort of arriving
at it, you know, I, I, I wasn't signed to a label.
It was just me and my manager at the time.
I'd, I'd written this song that I, I knew it was kind of
special. I, I wasn't really sure why and
I needed to make a music video and I was working full time at
that point in a post production studio.
So I, I knew I could edit. So I was like, OK, well, we just
need to film it. And I had this sort of, you
know, obviously the song itself is, is about a kind of savage
sort of breakup and sort of having, I guess sort of a
romantic friendship post, which is just feels like very queer as
a, as a kind of experience. It's just like you sort of still
rely on that person that's no longer your partner, but you
sort of, there's still this sort of tension or there's still
something kind of going on. And I, I just really wanted to,
I knew I wanted to film couples kissing and I knew I wanted it
to be in super, super slow motion.
So we got this kind of phantom camera that you could only shoot
for kind of three seconds, but it would be like a minute and a
half a footage or something like that.
And, you know, there was no budget.
I think I borrowed like £250 from my dad to rent the camera.
And I just sort of asked my contacts and where I work to
like, can you be the DOP? My friend Lizzie was a producer
and was like, I'll produce it. And yeah, I just asked all of my
friends, basically everyone that I knew particularly like a lot
of my friends were a queer and but also we did have, you know,
straight people in the video because I I wanted it to be like
that full. Yeah.
Spectrum And it was just the most like amazing day.
We had these smoke grenades that Lizzie the producer burnt her
finger on in the first day. And I just remember being like,
Oh my God, this is slow in France.
And we all had like black snot for for days afterwards because
of all the like all the smoke bombs, like just going.
In and. Doing it inside, there's no
ventilation. It was probably like super
legal. And I remember that night we
took the hard drives with the footage to a friend's house and
it was everyone, the cast of the video, and we just put it on the
on the laptop or whatever and watched it.
And we were just like, Oh my God.
You look amazing. You look, because no one had
ever really seen themselves snogging before, it's not
something you really see yourself do.
And also, you know, it's a really vulnerable thing being
like, here, please snog in front of a camera.
Some people were couples. Some people had never even met,
you know, So it's kind of some people were like besties but
like, weren't romantically involved.
But we all got really emotional and we just said, this is
gorgeous. And I sort of ended up cutting
it together kind of at the weekends or after work and put
it out and just it it sort of blew up in a in a way that
honestly, I thought I was, I thought I'd kind of found a
glitch in the system. Yeah.
Because whenever I refreshed the video on YouTube, it just, it
would have like, yeah, by like 1000 hours.
It was like. So you didn't have any really
social strategy, You just literally posted it on YouTube
and just thought, oh, this will just go into the kind of echo
chamber I suppose. I.
I, I had no plan like beyond I really want to make this.
I think it's gorgeous. Put it up and the, the response
was wild. And that's when suddenly I was
like, oh, now I'm on a treadmill.
Now I'm running at top speed. Now I have like people asking me
to tour and I have 3 songs. Wow.
You know, so it was, it was just, I think actually if I knew
or had a sense of that happening, I might have waited
to put that out a few months later.
But then of course it may not have.
That's the thing, right? Timing, right?
Yeah, it's. It's just like a zeitgeist
thing. I think.
Also, there'd been another video that week with models snogging
and and so like snogging was just particularly in, you know.
It was very serendipitous. Yeah, it was just, it's one of
those things that you just could not plan and I'm so grateful for
it. But it was also like absolutely
bonkers and men that I was sprinting from from then till
now basically. Yeah, yeah.
You've just about caught up or catching up and then you're just
going to do it all over again. Yeah, great.
Yeah. I mean, it was, it was iconic.
And did you get any, was there any negative feedback that come
back or was it generally positive?
Yeah, it was definitely. There were people who were like,
this is. Wrong and I actually went troll.
Yeah, you, you definitely had that.
But it was surprising how because it it because it had
become like, because it had blown up.
And I think so many queer friend groups were like, have you seen
this, sharing it, that the balance, it was just
overwhelmingly positive. So I did.
My lot probably made-up at least 100K, so you can thank us all.
Thank you so much. Because yeah, it just rippled
through and even now, I mean touch for me, it was like it was
so like such a big kind of just. I remember that summer.
It was like the song of the summer for us.
I remember it just went like went on for so long that it 2014
was one of my favorite, my favorite years just because I
think it was such a liberating year.
And even now, like touches on my light song still.
And when I come through, like when I am, what's it going to be
like? I think that whole like
collection of that era is like so poignant to me that when I
listen to it, it takes me back to some of like the best times
of my life. And I think to be able to write
music and also portray music, particularly with that queer
lens on it, because until recently we did, we had nothing,
like barely anything to relate to and feel like outside of our
friendship groups that we kind of probably all just crash into
each other in one way or another and are like, OK, we're friends
now because we've got this thing in common.
Outside of that, there was just, there was nothing.
And I, yeah, that it was so. And I'm just speaking for
myself, but I know I speak for so many people on that, that it
was just such a turning point, I think, in the community and you
must be really proud of. Well, I think also when making
it, it felt, which is why it's sort of interesting 10 years
later being here and putting out another record and actually
making another video, which I, I can't go into too much detail
about yet. But I think when that comes out,
the sort of it'll become clear sort of what I'm what I'm
hinting at. But like, I think making that in
that moment, it was, you know, a group of queer friends who all
kind of really loved each other, who were all really pulling
together to do 1 beautiful thing at a time where it felt very
much like everything was always going to get better and now was
our time. You know, of course there were
queer artists before. And, you know, I think we have
to like, I certainly have to just give a little nod to Tegan
and Sarah, who were the only queer musicians I knew of when I
was a teenager because I googled it in my attic.
You know, they've been around. But certainly 2014 it it did
feel like I was kind of a Lone Ranger to some degree or, you
know, and the fact that I was sort of unapologetically queer
from from the girl. It wasn't like I was releasing
music then I, you know, revealed it or I think it was just like
any, certainly any lesbian watching would have been like,
this is a lesbian. Person.
Yeah, the whole static is a nod, like we're all on the same.
Page yeah, it may, it may not have been in the press release,
but it wasn't like a a secret. Yeah.
And so, yeah, it was just it was a really beautiful moment in
time. And I love that actually, what
what you say about music about and the power of music to sort
of really take you back in time, like to a moment, to A, to a
relationship, to a feeling, to A, to a place.
But yeah, so it's, it's and it's funny now and amazing now that I
am not the only queer. There's so many.
I mean, even just between releasing my last record, which
was 2019, right before the pandemic, and now I'm like,
yeah, it's like you, you cannot go a week without a queer person
releasing an amazing song. And I'm like, this is how it
should be. This is how it always should
have been. And it's fantastic.
But yeah, like at that time it was, yeah, it was just a
different era. But now whilst we have that,
there's also this feeling of, oh, it's not always going to be
better. And we do have to really fight
for, for kind of rights of everyone under the umbrella.
And it's kind of like an It's very weird to know that progress
isn't guaranteed. Well, we have gone back.
I genuinely, I agree what you said there about there was so
much kind of optimism built into that.
Yeah, I completely agree. Like, although it was so new to
me, it was it, it, it just become like such a positive
thing in my life. And I love what you say about
kind of all your friends coming together because I've done an
episode a couple of weeks ago with a friend and I speak about
this all the time, like the importance of queer friendship.
Because I do think it is so, so multifaceted because of all the
different things that we kind of have to club together on as
being queer friends, which is like our right to exist, the
nuances within our community. And if you don't have that and
also the lengths that we will go to for each other, I think as
well. And not not dampening the
existence of heterosexual friendship, but I do just think
it is that slightly different thing.
And yeah, the fact that you, you know, said that it was all of
your friends coming together and doing that and there was so much
because by the other end of the spectrum, whilst listening to
touch, which is a very, you know, ethereal like feeling song
with so much emotion built in. I was also lashed off my tits
and Sante that summer listening to Sigma, feeling just as
optimistic with a bunch of straight men with their tops
off, knowing that I was also this big fat lesbian.
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help.com/LSEbut. That was in a crop top and these
like hot pants shorts, which came in my relatively femme era
today. But it's not it's not the vibe.
But yeah, there was so much like a lot more positivity in the
world. And I think as you said there
about, yeah, there's so, so many amazing career artists out there
now coming up with new music all the time.
That's exactly how it should be, the same as there are straight
artists. It's just, it should just be the
norm. Like, yes, the people are
expressing themselves in the arts through different
experiences, but I do think it's even more poignant now than it
ever has been just because, like, the political landscape is
probably, I can say since I've been alive, one of the most
terrifying. It's definitely pretty bleak.
It's not great, no, it's not great and it takes a lot to keep
pushing for your existence. And we shouldn't have to in the
1st place. And This is why like Lesbian
Supper Club and on small scales and big scales, people coming
forward and like owning who they are.
And as you were saying that you didn't have to say, oh, I'm a
lesbian. Like it's just very much in who
you are. How you express yourself is so
important. And I think we are trying to get
silenced in so many ways. And on that, it's your kind of
journey through the music industry because you've said
that touch. You were literally just doing it
all by yourself. And then I mean, pretty much a
whole decade has passed since then.
Very much so. Which is also wild.
Like time is a weird suit. How has that happened?
Mental like I love the fact that you call yourself a millennia.
Melesbial. Melesbial.
Yeah, I said it once and I was like, that's great.
Think I did it on purpose and I was like this is brilliant and
I'm using it forever from now. On well, talking about
struggling with your TikTok social media, there's a video
for you right there. New #melesbial, creator of the
word melesbial. Maybe I'm born for TikTok and I
just don't realise. Yeah, I think you're going to be
uncovering quite a few things this year.
How's like your journey through music and within the industry
grown, changed How? What does that look like for
you? Well, I think I've had like a
super varied like experience in that I've, you know, I've been
signed to the major risk of major labels.
I've been signed to sort of indie labels.
I, I signed for this record to an indie label that then got
munched by a major label, which was my first label.
So, you know, like it's, it's constantly sort of changing and
evolving the way I sort of. Have experienced it, but I feel
really blessed because I think, you know, firstly releasing
touch the response to that having sort of going from being
a person who had a full time job to a person who has, you know,
567 record labels coming to them being like, please, can I you
know, that is just a kind of not everyone gets that opportunity
to to make a decision. About what they're.
Home even yeah and I certainly think you know, there were
things that I just didn't know about the music industry when I
was having those initial meetings.
And obviously my my manager did explain it to me as as we went.
But you know, I remember being introduced to to people who
called product managers and I was just saying, great, they're
going to be the people who like help design my artwork, who like
helped design all the merch. This is really cool.
And then I'll say, Oh, wait, no, I the, I'm the product, they're
managing me. And I hadn't realized how.
So I was like, why do they keep, Why does every label introduce
me to like the merch person? You know, like, why is that such
a? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because you just think that'd be something kind of be more back
end and you just get the designs come through, say yes or no, and
it's done. I mean, I am obsessed with
actually, you know, product design and, and, and build well,
building for for for the records.
It's actually after, I think maybe making the music sort of
my favorite part of the process. But so I was like pumped to meet
them and then realized that no, I'm the product.
And that's a, that's a funny realization to sort of make
about yourself that you're like, Oh, no, I am, I'm.
The person, yeah. I'm a creative person, I'm
making art, but I'm also have to be in some way packaged up and
marketed. And so that was kind of like an
interesting brain puzzle to sort of solve.
And I, I certainly remember like being called in to my first
label, like it was like the head of marketing and he was sort of
like, why don't you want to be marketed?
And I was like, what I do, please.
Some of my records. Yeah.
I think it's just because I was saying no to some things that
you know, because you're like, well, it doesn't necessarily
align with like what I, you know, what I like, You know, I'm
happy to like work with brands and stuff when it's something
that I would. Feel so authentic.
Yeah, it's just like, yeah, OK, Converse.
Great. Put me in Converse and we'll run
around a high. School.
Yeah, Genuine. Yeah.
So that's kind of interesting. And then but, but yeah, I mean,
it's, it's, it's not been a, a journey without its challenges.
Like every single label I I've been dropped by.
And so actually one of my friends got dropped.
Sorry, that's not funny, but like but but.
It's my only. Experience you've got to have
some fucking resilience because I don't think I'll be able to
get I'm take rejection so badly, which is a big floor of mine and
I know that it's just part of the way it is hard industry
works and the world works but to be able to get up each time like
says a lot about kind of your passion and your resilience and.
I think I'm just really persistent as a person, like I'm
quite like a determined person. And and actually my friend
recently got dropped and it it happens all the time.
It's a it's, it's literally like a maths equation.
It's like, did you make enough money?
No, OK, bye. So I was like, babe, call me,
I've been dropped. I've only ever been dropped and
we. Need to talk?
If you if you ever need to talk to anyone about it, just come
chat to me. I am the expert.
I've gone through every scenario, every conversation.
Yeah, so but I. But it is certainly the second
time being dropped was kind of harder because it happened right
as the pandemic was sort of in full throes.
So, you know, I was touring my U-Haul record about falling in
love with my my partner in New York.
Yeah, a U-Haul album. And I was halfway through
touring it and suddenly it was just like, gigs don't exist
anymore. You've just got to stay inside.
And. And so I felt like I had sort of
unfinished business of like touring this really joyful
record. And then kind of halfway through
the pandemic, they were like, you know what?
We're not going to move on with a with another record.
And I was like, OK, so I don't no longer have a label now.
And I didn't finish touring my really happy breakfast.
I was just. Got taken from you anyway.
Yeah, I don't know if I, I can't make a record right now because
I'm stuck in New York. I don't have any.
I'm not with my studio. So how do I even find a new
label if I can't really record demos?
And I remember like, you know, asking my friends like Torres,
who's an amazing queer musician, like, can I borrow a guitar?
Can I borrow this? Like asking microphone
companies, can I? So you're definitely the type of
person then who finds solutions because I'll have sat infested
in that for about 6 months I reckon.
Oh, there was some festering, like, for sure like.
And by festering, I mean playing The Last of Us like non-stop and
then like deciding to become a Twitch streamer for fun, right?
Yeah. But you had a chance to explore
other avenues and they feel like that's really important.
Just a new hobby for me. That's.
Yeah, add to the many, the many, the end.
That made you multifaceted and that's yeah, you've got to find
your gratefulness and and all of your trials.
And also that game is gay is fucking really like great.
Don't get me started on it 'cause I've been I've I've been
in my Sims era which so bad which I would take to friends
houses. For dinner, but you would take
Sims. I would take my laptop and be
like I'm just going to eat and then sit.
And then be gay in The Sims. Yeah, and everyone was just
like, just let her get on with it.
And then it was GTAI mean, that was a big one last year.
Yeah, really Big hot summer's day in Cornwall sat on GTA.
I support it. I think video games are great.
Yeah, yeah. But I feel like it's just
there's there's that element of, you know, health, health that
comes into it, which I don't really understand.
So yeah, it's amazing that you're able to.
But I think it speaks so much about you must just love it.
Like it must bring you so much. I.
Think there's just like you just you're going to do it anyway.
Do you know what I mean? I think that's with anything
that you love, it's like, yeah, I might do it and it might be in
my bedroom and no one hears it or it's shit or whatever.
But you, you just, if you're, if you make music, you will always
make music. And, you know, I've been really
fortunate and blessed that there have been record labels who go,
we will give you this amount of money to make music how you want
to make it. Because, you know, I'm not, you
know, I'm not from a background where I can pay for a record
myself. I have to have work with a
label. And one of the big things
actually, I say to kind of young artists or any artists who comes
to me, like, what advice would you give in?
I'd be like, look, if you're able to work without a label, if
you can produce music, like the longer you do it yourself, like
the better. Because especially now with
TikTok, with social media being the way it is, you do not need
it. If you don't need it, like, it
can help and it certainly helps me.
But it's just like, hold on to your independence and your
powers like as long as possible, because people will.
Find as soon as you get boxed, it's very, it's very difficult.
Yeah, yeah. Talking of like the journey of
of music and obviously your queerness plays into a lot of
that. What was your journey of
queerness? Kind of what did that look like
for you? I like, I, I feel like my
journey is like I wish for my journey for everyone in some
ways. Like I'm super blessed.
Like I'm not saying that they weren't like difficult moments.
Firstly, I have a twin who I've mentioned he came out very, I
mean it was very, you know, the closet was very much I love.
Gay twins because it really helps with the nature versus
nature argument. Yeah.
And it's like, no, we are quite
literally like, it's in the DNA. Yeah.
You can't make someone gay. Two out of two gay exactly.
So he came out. Well, I say he came out.
It was clear, I think to to all of us that or you know what, it
was clear to my parents that he was gay.
And my dad, when he was about 13, sat down with him and sort
of said to him, Nick, should I just assume you're gay until you
tell me otherwise? You know, it's, it was a version
of that so that he didn't have to come out because coming out
is, you know, saying I'm gay is, is, is scary.
Even if it's an amazing thing, it, it can be very frightening.
And I and Nick just sort of nodded his head.
And I remember my dad coming to me and saying, look, Nick's gay.
And at first I was a little bit upset, which is interesting
because all my friends at school were like, your brother's gay,
your brother's gay. And I'd ask Nick, I said, are
you gay? And he said no.
So I was sort of upset about them being right and me not
knowing, but not, yeah, but not. So I wasn't upset about the fact
that he was gay. It was more that I felt sort of
embarrassed that I had been insisting he wasn't because he
had told me he wasn't. But I mean, it being upset
lasted for like 2 minutes. And then by the time we were
sort of 16, he was going to the gay village in Manchester
because Manchester is just a great place to grow up queer.
And so we're going out underage. And I actually only had my first
experience of gay village like four months ago.
Oh my God. And I went with a 21 year old at
the age of 29, which was not great in its own right.
Very much friends, by the way, everyone not, not dating 21, no
judgment, not for me. And yeah, it's fucking chaos.
So I was like, what the fuck? The fact that we don't have
something similar to that in London is is insanity to me.
But it's incredible for what it is.
And I think for young queer people it is.
It is quite literally like a portal of just like gay.
And everything that goes into that community is kind of
represented just on that strip. And I think that's amazing.
Yeah. And so he would, he would go and
I would accompany him like we'd go together.
So you're very much not. I won't look.
I, I was playing football to like a really high level at that
point. I was playing for Manchester
City. So like I would just say that
sport was my life. And so I hadn't yet had that.
Like I wasn't interested in boys, but I wasn't interested in
girls. I was interested in football,
which should have been a sign to myself, but it wasn't that.
But I think I was going to touch on this though, because I think
even from your parents noticing your brother and not noticing
you, I think it's because it's so much easier for girls to fall
into masculinity and just be called a tomboy.
Whereas when boys fall into femininity, it's not, Oh, you're
a feminine. Well, until recently, but even
still now it's not that. Oh, you're a you're just a
feminine guy. It's or you're gay like, and I
think it's so much easier from the heterosexual world to kind
of see gayness in men than versus in women.
Yeah, which is really interesting and could you could
probably spend at least three episodes.
On yeah, I think it goes into like toxic masculinity and also
severe misogyny where women are concerned.
So it's like women couldn't possibly want to be not with
men. And yeah, men have to be
masculine. If they're anything other than
that, they're just gay. So yeah.
Yeah. And so I wasn't really sure of,
you know, I just wasn't really tuned into kind of that aspect,
you know, tuned into sexuality, Yeah.
And like, being attracted to people.
But then I had a friendship at a all girls school, a best friend.
And it's just a classic. Yeah.
It was a very intense friendship that absolutely became sort of
this very secret romance. And then there were lots and
lots of toxic elements to that, you know, and it was like
amazing, awful, you know. And I think they would, they
would say the same. And I was like, OK, well, maybe
I'm bisexual or maybe, you know, I didn't.
I didn't really label myself, but this friend would stay over
a lot. And I think my dad sort of did
the same thing and just sort of said, look, should I assume that
so and so is your girlfriend? And I was just like, just
silently nodding. Yes, and walk away.
Yeah, and then my dad became president of the Manchester Gay
Parents group and now, amazing, it's like, 'cause.
You grew up in Manchester. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was born in London. I was gonna say, 'cause the
accent does not prevail. Well, it's so I feel like the
accent, the the like lilt is there, like the northern lilt.
There's something. But yeah, I.
I'm so blown away that you were like a big footballer and yeah,
made it into Man City. Like that's, that's insane
'cause it's two very different things.
Being musician hobbies you're true true.
Too many. You're clearly very good at
having hobbies because you've made quite a success out of all
of them. So why don't you get into
trading or something as well And then?
Just I'm bad at maths, right? OK, I'm bad at maths.
Fun thing. OK, fine.
So you were almost like the Jess Park equivalent back in the day.
Oh my God, I'm just sorry. I'm just thinking of the
shortest Man City football. Player yeah.
No, no, no, that's fair. She's right.
I. Am she's amazing so.
Because no one can see. Well, maybe they can, but I'm in
the chair. But yeah, I just.
It's fine. We'll get a photo.
Yeah. Next to each other.
Fucking short. Tiny.
To use that, but yeah, that's that's amazing.
And So what do you think your dad is just like that as a
person? He's just always been a very.
Look, well, it wasn't like suddenly, OK, I've got 2 gay
ones now I'm the president. I think, you know, look, he, he
joined the group because there were elements that he struggled
with. And I think he, any parent kind
of at that area was like, is it me?
Is it, you know what? And so he went to a group where
there were other parents of gay children and they would talk
and, you know, support one another.
And I think he just became so sort of invested in it.
And because he had two out of two, they sort of eventually
nominated him as president. And which is the most dad thing
to happen to my dad. And I remember we had a a
Manchester pride, which is a a great pride.
And absolutely, if you haven't been, you must go.
And there was a gay parents float and my dad decided to
drive it. Wow, in drag I.
Hope you've Oh yes, I hope you've got content of.
This I have somewhere like an image of him in drag.
I mean, he just just sort of looked like Ozzy Osbourne and
it's kind of in the end and but the sad.
This just gets better and better.
The saddest thing is that the flow broke down.
Oh no, So he never. Got so he started driving it and
then it broke down and he never got to like be in the.
Parade. OK, so like.
So ready for it. There's you've got to have it
that he gets to do that again. You know what I mean?
Oh my God, yes. We're gonna have to make it some
sort of like collaboration. We'll get some sponsor somewhere
and allow him to live out his dream.
He actually said to me, said to both my twin and I the other
day. He was like, sometimes I walked
down the street and I think to myself, both my children are
gay, how cool am I? And I start skipping and I'm
just like this is. I hope he sounds like this.
Is that kind of like very quintessential, like British
father? Yeah, yeah, I mean, he also has
a straight child. And I'm like, Dad, what about
you? Like doesn't matter, you forget
about them. I do boring.
Yeah, So, no. So I'm really blessed like that.
Isn't he the one I don't want to, like, paint this picture of?
Like it was perfect. Look, I was absolutely bullied
at school, like my dad did initially struggle, my mum did
initially struggle, but it's it was about as sort of perfect as
it could have been I think. So I have to ask, is your SO, is
your mum the Russian? Mum is Russian, yes.
OK, so did that have any because I know that culturally without
making a sweeping statement, I mean, it's, you know, God, very
obvious that as a country, one of the most probably homophobic
ones that could exist. And it's not easy if you've
grown up in those very structured environments that
promote and depromote certain ways of living.
It's not a personal thing. I can imagine that that that
when that's in you and it's kind of just how did so how did she
take it by comparison? Yeah, I think, well,
interestingly there was sort of a mirror and apparently this is
not uncommon, where my dad struggled with my coming out a
little bit more and my mum struggled with my brother's
coming out a little bit more. Because they say it's sort of
like a rejection of you as the mother figure or, you know, I'm
sure there's, there's lots of really smart reasons for why
that may be. But yeah, I mean, overall, I
mean, she's lived here for longer than I've been alive now.
So I think that that helps. And she's also, you know, was an
actor, is a creative person. It's quite like, so I think that
helped. But yeah, I mean, it's it's,
it's definitely a source of sadness.
I'd, I'd love to tour in like, I'd love to play a show.
Not now, but you know, I would love to play a show in Russia
for queer people, but I wouldn't feel I I myself would feel safe,
but I wouldn't feel safe for the people.
That are turning up and leaving. Very interestingly, though, I
know a few Russians and I was speaking to one of them who
actually moved over a couple of years ago from Russia.
You know, me potentially being ignorant, but also being very
awake to the things that we know that happened.
I was like, she's queer. So I was like, you know, fucking
how, how was that kind of thing? And she was like, fine, there's
certain areas, I think it was Saint Petersburg that she was
from. And she was saying that there
was like a basically like a whole district there where it
was just very gay, loads of gay bars, more than we even have
here, loads of gay clubs. And everyone just got left the
fuck alone. And she was like, yes, of course
you don't go about on the day today parading it in the street,
but generally actually inside. And I know that again, without
getting too political and breaking down all of the reasons
about what we see on TV and what we don't see on TV, and
obviously there's some obvious very deep rooted issues there.
But I do think what you were saying, it's the kind of flip
both sides of the coin of not wanting to do that because, you
know, you're protected, but the people that come may not.
But then if you don't do it, how does the narrative ever change?
And it's such a difficult. One to navigate well and also to
clarify. I've definitely never been asked
to you know, I think if I if I had been asked to I would but I
would certainly be nervous about it.
But I think I mean this is proof, isn't it that kid, you
know what your what your friend is describing.
It's like we we fucking exist. We will find a way like if the
the sort of more we're put down, the bigger.
The. Counterculture like and, and
it's normally always young queer people like who are just finding
this, just finding the pocket and just going and resisting.
And and that's not to like, I have to just as I say that, just
be like, also thank for our queer elders who fought for us.
Absolutely to this point. Yeah, I think in you'll, you'll
be surprised by places where you think this is just like, I
wouldn't feel safe to be queer. Like there'll be a, there's
going to be an underground queer culture that is absolutely.
One of the biggest eye opening experiences for me is when I
went to Warsaw of Levi's for pride and there were some
individuals there who were. More stoic in their presence of
being on the streets with loads of gay people walking around.
I didn't see. I've seen it more in London
Pride. No name calling, no slurs, no
fights when we were going through on the parade, old, like
old people hanging out windows waving flags and waving.
And like that for me was like, again, one of those memories
I'll never forget because I did go in with that huge like
preconceived ideas of very homophobic country.
You know, lots of stories, lots of issues.
Again, though, a very war-torn country over the years.
And you can't oppress people for long periods of time and expect
them to move, move with the times, which I'm a hugely, like
passionate about. And yeah, I think it's the same
thing for all of these places. It's like you hear the stories,
but if you go, sometimes what you see on the ground is not
always what's blown up in the media, particularly by Western
media and things like that. One of my favorite shows ever
was was Poland. Like very queer, like very like,
so tapped into kind of like new music.
I think as well, because they're building up like it's new,
coming out of, like, all of the, like, wars and issues that
they've had, like politically, they're really now only a space
where they're building back up. And I felt exactly the same.
I loved it. Would go back anytime.
Yeah. And the food's incredible.
Oh my God. It's cheap, cheap bit cheap
food, cheap fags, dog food. Yeah, yeah, fantastic.
So your lesbian experiences? My lesbian experiences.
You. Hauling.
Sorry, I love how I just like ripped my cap off my head I
guess. Lesbian experiences let me.
I've had them a lot. I yeah, bloody hell.
So your current girlfriend started as a U-Haul and you're
still together eight years later?
It started as fucking. By yeah, well, it started as on
an app like. Love how else do we fucking meet
each other? Really like.
Literally I I mean I remember this website called Gaydar
Girls. I don't even know if it still
exists, but like. That never heard about that.
Oh my God, It was, it was gaydar and gaydar girls.
And that's how people met. It was before iPhones and it was
like, that's online dating was just has always been.
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, we met.
I was on tour for my first record.
She's in New York. I was really like exhausted from
kind of being on the road for like two, 2 1/2 years.
I was like, oh, if ever you're in New York, you know, like, you
know, like casually probably just wanted to go for a drink or
whatever. And I was like, you know what, I
am going home. Like I, I've been on tour for
like 8 weeks. I think I'm losing my mind.
And anyway, we were sort of texting.
It's just like the classic, it's the classic story of like, we're
texting now. We're texting every day now.
We're having telephone calls. 4 hours long.
Literally that was my next sentence.
I just fucking live to repeat each other, don't we?
Like no one, no one in this community has had no experience
ever. Yeah.
And. It got to the point, it got to
the point where I was just like, I am like not really sleeping
because I'm having these conversations and it's like, I,
I love these conversations, but you know, we've never met in
real life. Like, you know, how, how a
person kind of occupies space is such a big part of physical
attraction. You know, I knew I, I, I was
like attracted to her as a, as a, as a brain, as a voice face
on the other end of the phone. And I was like, look, I think
we, you know, I think we should try and have a date because,
because if it doesn't work, then fine.
Like I've met a person that I clearly like vibe with in some
way. But it's also like this is a
real kind of time and emotional sync that I'm pouring all this
energy into. So I sort of invented a reason
to be in New York. I was just, I was just like,
yeah, yeah, I've got a thing in New York.
Weirdly, my labels just sent me out.
Yeah, I mean, there's always stuff you can do in New York.
So basically I was like, OK, I'm going to use the last bit of my
advance to book like a ridiculous hotel, and I hope
that it goes well. And then after a few days, she's
just like, cancelled the hotel. Like yeah, stay at mine, I
messaged. The hotel actually, you've only
budget for two days and you'll think.
I mean, I had the budget, but I was just like, please, yeah,
please. And I messaged my friends Muna
and I was like, can we, can you get me a guest list for your
show? It's like a first day like
thanks. I need to look as cool as
fucking possible Get. Me on that list they did and
anyway I fly it's really high like this feels like you know I
messaged my friends they're being like if this is a disaster
I'm going to need you to swoop in and do fun stuff with me
because. I know there's going to be so
many people listening to this right now pissing themselves
because they're probably in an airport.
If you're, if they're in America, probably on an 8 hour
fucking car journey. Yeah, literally having the same
thoughts and feelings that you're having right now about
that U-Haul. Yeah, and anyway, we meet and
the lobby of this very fancy hotel and my room is on the 21st
floor and we decided to. Did you have the pigeon coat at
this point? I think, I think the pigeon coat
I'd left at home. Right.
OK. I think I was in like quite a
nice little silk jacket. Oh, you really?
I really didn't like this girl. You I I wore like really nice
shoes that I kept asking her if she liked them because I was so
fucking awkward that I just didn't know what.
Else to say she's. Just like, not really like.
She's been the ugliest. Fucking they weren't even that
night like I thought they were not.
Anyway, so we meet in the lobby and we'd agreed to have drinks
and hadn't really thought. So we got into the the the
elevator and there are these strangers in the elevator and
she's there. And we hardly had said anything.
And I was like, well, I can't really these strange if I go,
oh, well, this is kind of interesting, like meeting for
the first time. Or, you know, if I if I did my
usual thing of like make joke about the situation because it's
a bit awkward, then this family are going to be like, what the
fuck is going on here? So we just sat in silence.
So I stood in silence for 21 floors of this elevator ride.
And we had a, we'd had a drink on the on the balcony and we,
she wasn't really making eye contact with me.
And I was kind of like, oh fuck, this is yeah, she doesn't fancy
me. This is going to be painful.
And of course. I'm literally going to be skint
to a new level because she's not letting me in the house.
I'm going to have to call my friends and be like, can I stay
at yours? And anyway, we went to the MUNA
show and about halfway through the MUNA show, she took my hand
to lead me to a place where I could see because I'm short so I
couldn't see anything. And when she took my hand, I was
like, she does fancy. Yeah, I did.
And obviously we talked about afterwards, but the eye contact,
we were both just really nervous.
And we were both. So, you know, we'd spent six
months talking to each other. And it was incredibly, like an
intense kind of yeah. And anyway, eight years later.
Well, it works. She's U hauled over.
To the. UK now, yeah.
So I did three years there and then.
She's done OK, fine. Yeah.
Wow, yeah. Somehow, and actually I did just
there, I posted this video of her coming in through Heathrow
with every single item of our belongings from New York being
like lesbians on a second date. But it's just so funny.
She's got 2 trolleys which she likes strapped together and it
literally is all our worldly possessions and it but.
It is lesbians on a second date. It kind of.
Is like you guys have actually done it relatively normal on the
grand scheme of things. But we know lesbians that have
had one date and then just moved in.
Yeah, so it happens. Just let us live our lives.
God forbid us. God forbid we have a hobby.
We can learn the hard way that that's not always.
Fun. We're always going to be.
You're fine. The rest of us are probably
always going to be learning the hard way.
But that's just how life goes. Yeah.
So tied into that. What, you've come back over here
then you're releasing a new song.
Yeah. Next week.
You so a new album called I Got Too Sad for My Friends, which is
maybe the most me album title of all time because the last few
years have been difficult. I was going to.
Say, that's interesting because we've spent most of this episode
talking about your optimism and resilience.
No, you're releasing an album about.
Yeah, well, I mean, that was such a foreign experience for me
and such a kind of a really it was feeling myself shrink and
sort of not recognizing myself was a was a really kind of, I'd
never experienced that before. So a lot of the album does deal
with that. I mean, I I have a song coming
out next week. Well, I don't know when it will
be. We whatever you can say like you
can edit, you'll have to edit this but called so I have a song
coming out called World's Worst Girlfriend.
So I need to know, is that about you?
Yes. So you're the world's worst
girlfriend? It's sort of about feeling like
you are or and not and not wanting to be and sort of.
I'm not actually going to repeat that title back to you because I
don't want any of my exes to clip it and then just have it on
replay and have me admitting something that I personally
don't. Think it's true that that might
go really well though, you know, if like.
True, it's great premise for you.
I just look into the camera and keep saying it was was,
girlfriend was girlfriend was. No, but like it's, it's about
sort of me being, I mean, because I went through a period
and you know, I joked about it actually when we were making
coffee. I'm a bit of a hermit and I
don't do very much. But it, you know, I went through
a period where I really didn't, you know, I was playing video
games. I, I, I was sort of hiding from
the world and knowing that that mustn't be very fun to be with.
And I, and I really wanted to be a better girlfriend.
I wanted to be that person that was like, let's go for dinner,
let's go to the theatre, let's do this, let's go to go.
To and you just couldn't find it.
Just it's. Like I want to be in my PJS and,
and feeling like the world's worst girlfriend.
And obviously there's a sense of humor to it.
It's, it's like a very silly pop song, but I, I think if you have
kind of a high baseline anxiety or just an anxious person, you,
you, everyone sort of felt like that at some point.
So. Absolutely.
I mean you basically just described me for a good year of
my life recently exactly the same thing.
Like went through a complete phase of like who the fuck am I?
Why the fuck don't I feel like myself?
How do I get back there? Is it lost forever?
Even the thoughts I have don't feel like me thinking.
I don't want to do any of the things I want to do.
I'm a bad friend, I'm a bad partner, I'm a bad daughter.
And it's fucking hard to get because you almost have to live
it and get so far down something snaps you to come back up.
But as you're falling, you know you're falling, but you can't.
You don't know what to fucking do to pick yourself.
Accidentally made the perfect album for you.
Sorry. Christ.
You might need to wait a little bit.
You know what? I'm back on in three months and
thank me again for the next 100K views, All right?
Because clearly number one biggest fan over here.
Yeah, it's so true. And I think I'm normally
relatively the same as you. Pretty fucking chill.
Pretty. Yeah.
Problem solver, pick up. Get on.
There's always a way, always been very proud that that's,
well, not proud, but always been very aware that that's how I
would describe myself and, and know of myself.
And when you don't see that those things as much about
yourself anymore, it's the most dystopian, destabilizing feeling
ever. And I speak about this a lot to
people, like externally, I've gone through a lot fucking worse
in life, you know, as we all do, loss, heartbreak, grief,
whatever it may be. And those external events didn't
touch me even half as much as the internal unraveling ever
did. And I don't think people speak
about it enough. That's the.
Interesting thing to me, certainly, and certainly why I
spent so much of this record is like, if I look at it sort of
from the outside, I, I wasn't going through anything.
You didn't have that much, you know, like everyone else was
going through the pandemic. I was in a relationship.
I loved my partner, I, they were incredibly supportive.
And yet it was this slow unravelling and this sort of
like I found myself shrinking and myself retreating.
And I think I mean, apart from the obvious, like I watched
like, you know, I watched Romeo and Juliet as a kid and was
like, do I fancy, you know, or do I want to be him?
And you know I. Saw a quote that you'd made that
about that before. Yeah.
And so every lesbian at one point in their life has wanted
to dress. From a lesbian, yeah for sure.
Like. Every my ex-girlfriend, the one
that discovered you and sent in the music video, has dressed up
as Leonardo DiCaprio multiple times on Halloween.
I mean, it was an iconic look and I think but the reason that
sort of that is a part of the process, a part of what was fed
into sort of all the the art direction for this record of me
kind of in armour, yeah. I've seen that is this idea.
Interesting to see how this comes out.
But it but I'm not protecting anything useful.
Do you know what I mean? I'm not I'm not protecting my
torso where all my vital organs are.
I've got like a pauldron on, which is like for people who I
didn't know. This is to the shoulder bit.
OK. So it's it's like a metaphor for
how when we are for in my mind, the idea was that often when we
are in those moments, we do things that we think are to
protect ourselves, but actually or to but but actually make it
sort of worse. So we retreat from the world
when actually we need to be running into the world being
like, give me a hug. Yeah.
And I think that's the hardest thing sometimes if you're a
highly anxious person, like especially for me, highly
anxious, but also highly independent.
I've never had to ask for help really in my life because I've
always just accepted that I would rather do it on my own.
And again, that was the first time where I couldn't and it was
fucking hard to be like, I need help.
That was the hardest thing that I've ever had to do.
And yeah, same thing, like put on all of the armour,
discombobulated all in the wrong way because I had never lived it
before. And I think you may be able to
feel the same though as that. It's almost, I'll never say it
was one of the best things that ever happened, but I'm grateful
for it now because it's taught me so much about myself and it's
made me see the light in a completely different way.
And I think before, light was just almost a part of life.
Whereas now when I know what it's like to not see it, you're
very grateful for when it shines through.
And like that for me has been so like huge.
Yeah. And I think coming out the other
side makes you trust in the idea that these things pass.
They may go on for a really long time.
Like there's no guarantee like that it's going to but they
because when you're in it and it hasn't passed, no, you cannot
every day. You'll think waking up and you
feel the same. You're like, I wish we could go
back to sleep. So maybe tomorrow, maybe
tomorrow. And it's exactly that.
Thing I say out loud now actually quite a lot because
being in, you know, record cycle is, is, is challenging and you,
there's a lot of pressure on you to do stuff and you're wanting
to say yes to everything. But obviously if you do, then
you are really tired and you don't sleep.
And then I also am playing video games, so that doesn't help with
the sleep. But when I'm having sort of what
I call a bad brain day, I say, and my partner, we both say
like, it's perfectly possible that tomorrow will be better.
And I think it normally always is.
And it's a really powerful thing to say out loud.
Absolutely. And for those listening, you've
got that, which is beautifully poetic and beautifully
optimistic. I also had something with a
friend that went that we can always top ourselves tomorrow,
so let's not do it today. We'll give it until tomorrow.
Yeah, 2 two different types of people.
I think it's great. The whole point is we can relate
to as many people as possible on this podcast.
So if you are listening. But no, it really is that
sentiment of no one can ever give you a timeline.
Yeah, but this shit does always pass and it's fucking hard.
But it always comes out the other side and something
beautiful ways will come from it that you wouldn't be writing
this music now had you not have gone through that.
Absolutely. And you know, the same with
touch. Like I had to go through the
worst breakup of my life and then look what happened and as a
result of that and then. Did she get any royalties or
like no she. Didn't I got to design the album
the the single cover? I mean like it couldn't be
anything gay. And then that's like here's.
A he broke my fucking heart but. Here's a song about you.
Do you mind? I love it.
Do you mind, like, designing the artwork?
Yeah, of course. Like.
Oh my God. This is the.
This is the most lesbian thing I've ever.
Yeah, just. Yeah, well, I think that we've
like pretty much come to the end of this.
It's just the most lesbian thing ever.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
I've loved having a chat and I've can't believe how much I've
learned the Man City football play I need, I want.
Was that was that news that. Was because I've obviously done
a bit of I have to I can't just roar dog this I roar dog most
things in life. I can't roar dog this and so
your dad on the float, Ozzy Osbourne vibe that's been quite
game changing for me. Want to see that?
I need to see you in a kit. You can if you just got a few
scrolls. OK.
But yeah. OK, just because I'm trying to
envisage. That I'll just literally send.
I'll send you. Really.
OK, fantastic. It's it's looks as gay as you
would. This is why I want to see it.
I'm might be gay because I can't imagine you being like a mid
thigh short. I'm imagining like a lower thigh
knee. Everything.
I'm drowning in it exactly. This is this is like Adam
Sandler vibes, right? Yeah, yeah, this is exactly what
I want. So it's been groundbreaking in
all all ways. But I can't wait for the new
album to come out and the new song to come out.
And I'm super excited about what does, what does the next year to
18 months, two years look like for sure.
For sure, that is such a great question and you know what?
I would love to have the answer to it.
Obviously, you know, I'm playing on the show in London, in West
London. Amazing.
I literally it's in Shepherds Bush and I live in Shepherds
Bush and this is the best. To be honest with you, I will be
going to that. Anything beyond that or Camden,
that's probably not. And I got to be honest with you.
I'm playing Bush Hall in June, so that is like the two shows
that I know are definitely happening.
Amazing. We are, you know, looking at
planning a tour. Like to be quite honest, I kind
of want to, I want to get a blue belt in jiu jitsu.
I think that's my goal for the next 18 months because that's,
that's just a random goal to tack on to the end of like, but
that is honestly. You've got to keep it versatile.
You've got to. That is, I don't know if you've
ever, but just that is a wild experience because I I've never
it's so you're so physically sort of close to other people
and the first time I did it, it was the start of this year.
Sorry and you can totally cut this out but podcast.
But the first class I did I was the only woman there and the
trainer was like I feel sorry for this tiny tiny lesbian.
So like come and work with me and like 2 seconds later I'm
like in mount position which is straddling this 6 foot ginger ex
army guy with a beard. And it was like record scratch
moment of like, this is not how I expected my very gay life to
to go. Again, I do want visuals for all
of these things. You've just got so much.
It's like in my brain. No, no, no, I, I think, you
know, the the next 18 months is, is like enjoying, you know,
because there were times over the last five years I didn't
know I'd get to. Do coming back, yeah.
I didn't know I'd be able to get to do this again and I think.
The, the whole approach to the aesthetics, the recording,
everything has been like, what do you want to make sure you do
If this is the last time, like, and it probably isn't the last
time, but it's it's been that really joyful, like it's
nurturing that in a child of like, I want to do it this way
and I'm going to do it this way. So just really being present
with that. Oh, it's all of the experience
that you bring. Knowing what's right for you,
knowing what's not right for you.
Yeah, taking that low period, even though really hard and like
coming out hammering it again. I'm super excited to see how
this is going to go. And I think like it undoubtedly
will be amazing. You've got the hardest thing,
which is that your music and you smash that.
Your music is amazing. People do well with very ship
music, so you're going to be fine.
But I'm really excited. And lesbians, if you haven't
listened to Shira, do because you will all love it.
I know you will. And I can't wait.
Thank you for and thank you for having.
Yeah, thank you for coming on today.
It's been super, super great to. Chat and it's honestly been a
tree and I don't often wake up this early for for things you
did get. You were you were at that coffee
station 3 minutes before that you were supposed.
To my alarm was set for seven and wow, that is yeah.
Wait, I mean I'm I'm like in an ideal world, 10 AM is my alarm.
In an ideal. View.
I normally take about an hour and a half to walk around
Portobello Rd. with the dog and a coffee before I can start my
day like nothing before then. So we've both, we've both made a
real effort for each other today and I'd like to say it's been.
Worth it? No, I was super pumped.
I was really excited to do this. And just a quick shout out, if
any Gen. Z lesbians are listening to this
and want to help Shiro with her take talks.
DM me and I'll pass on your details because.
Stunning. It's fucking Hard Out Here.
I'm in the trenches. Ohh so I'm in the I just avoid
it all together to live. Absolute dismay.
But you can't. Have the one of the one of my
partner coming like my girlfriend coming through
Heathrow was like absolutely went mad.
And so what's annoying about TikTok is that you'll spend
fucking ages creating something like 2 lights.
You're like great. And then you'll be like oh this
is shit. And then you log on the app and
it's like 100,000 views, 100,000 lights.
What the fuck? This doesn't make sense.
Oh. Great.
I've posted so much about like my records, like everything.
And it's like, no, my partner's struggling.
That's easy throw. We just need to dominate the app
and they love that stupid shit. That's why.
So please guys come through of your top tips.
You're stupid shit. If you want us to keep existing
and leading the way for. You maybe they don't.
Maybe they just want us to fuck off, yeah?
Maybe our time is up. No, our time is not up.
I will be here with this behind me until I'm 80, still saying
that I led the way and nothing that I led the way in.
I'm going to become one of those insufferable old gay people.
That's going to be evil lovely for you.
Thank you everyone, I will catch you very soon on the next
episode of Lesbian Supper Club. Goodbye, bye.