Hello everyone, welcome to this week's episode of the Lesbian
Supper Club podcast. Today you were joined by
Scarlet. I am holding on by a thread.
I've had a chest infection this week and it's quite pathetic
actually that as soon as the weather changes even a little
bit, I combust. So we're in for a long winter.
I'm not looking forward to it. I've stacked up with vitamin D
already, sunbeds at the ready. Joking.
But yeah, it's not looking great.
I need some holidays booked in. Tell me where I can go over the
winter months so I can survive this awful British weather and
winter. And if you are the type of
person listening to this podcast and you enjoy winter, we can't
be friends. We're just not the same type of
person. And that's fine.
But I don't need that negativity in my life.
Yeah, I don't get it. Why does anyone like winter?
What do you like about it being dark, Cold.
No offense. Why does anyone like Christmas?
It's just not for me. None of none of this season is
for me. But I'm hoping that LSE will
bring travel events elsewhere, which are underway now and in
planning, which is amazing. And yeah, I can escape for
hopefully relatively long intervals so I don't end up with
just constant chest infections. There's a few things I actually
want to discuss on this week's episode of the podcast.
The first thing that I just want to discuss, tackle, have a
little rant about is Betty Who. And I don't know if anyone knows
who Betty Who is. And if you don't keep it that
way. If you do, I'm sorry.
I didn't know until she recently done an interview on the Made It
Out podcast. And look, I haven't listened to
the whole episode. Funnily enough, I actually don't
really listen to podcasts, which I probably shouldn't admit
considering I literally host one, but I don't.
The same as I don't really listen to new music and the same
as I don't really watch TV. It's just I'm just not good.
I feel like my brain is just so busy in my internal dialogue.
It's not often that I find the time or even like have a
conscious thought to follow something called watch something
or do something. So I haven't listened to the
whole episode, but I have listened to a large proportion
of all of the problematic shit that she said.
And I've listened and looked at a lot of people's reactions.
And basically it's just another person in this community.
And I say another. And I don't want to put this
under the umbrella of the Fletcher situation because I
think we've discussed the Fletcher situation at length.
And I'm not here to bypass anyone's experience, their queer
experience, their queer journey. And you know, going back to the
Fletcher situation briefly, that for me was a huge timing issue
and not about the situation itself, but what this person, AK
Betty who said on this podcast, I find highly, highly
problematic because this again is someone who has propositioned
themselves as lesbian focused queer for years now, all the
while having a male partner who I think from looking at
comments. And as I say, I didn't know much
or anything actually about this person before these episodes or
this episode arose. But this person has now got a
boyfriend or has had a boyfriend for a long period of time and,
you know, was making comments about how it was basically the
best love that she's ever had. Great.
But you're literally on a lesbian podcast.
And again, we're getting battered left, right and centre.
Not really useful conversation to be honest.
Like, that's good, that's great for you.
I'm very happy. But we don't really need you to
be saying this like, all good and well, say this to your
friends, but why are you coming on a public platform and a
lesbian podcast? And it is a lesbian podcast to
jump up and down and talk about how straight love is the best
love that you've ever found. Because like, not helpful, never
really helpful. Because generally people are
listening to these podcasts for community, for their voices to
be heard and for understanding. And yet you're going on there
and choosing that of all the podcasts that you could choose
to say that on, you choose to do it on a lesbian podcast.
And you then go on and make really unhelpful comments about
other artists that have come out, For example, Renee Rapp,
and has been like such an amazing advocate for the lesbian
community and has been so forthcoming and grounded in who
she is in her label and how she wants to identify and how, like,
men just don't come into that in any way, shape or form for her.
And she had to go on her own journey to do that.
And you make unhelpful comments saying, oh, well, if in 10 years
Renee Rapp decides that she meets a man, then we hold space
for her. What are you talking about?
Like if she does come out in 10 years and meets a man, then
fine, but then she wasn't a lesbian, was she?
Like she has come to an arrival that she is queer or pan or
bisexual and isn't a lesbian. But right now and she's very
much like honed in and very much positioned.
And I think from her perspective, we'll continue to
position herself is like a lesbian.
The same as I genuinely, genuinely can say to an absolute
near Infinity, if you ever catch me with a man that's not me.
Like if I ever come out publicly with a boyfriend that that ain't
me. Like I've been abducted and
replaced. Because I can say with absolute
certainty I am not attracted to men in any way, shape or form.
And I know so many people can argue, well, it's about the
person and it's about the emotional connection.
Great, good. But fundamentally, I am not in
any way shape or form attracted to men.
The male anatomy, the way that they smell, the way they feel
like, literally everything about them.
No offense guys, because I like men as people.
But I am not interested and never will be.
And that is absolutely fine. And I don't need anyone that
doesn't identify as a lesbian, which is absolutely fine in
their prerogative, telling me that that could change in a
society where we get told that and have been told that
basically as lesbians throughout our whole journey.
It's just unhelpful. And like, of all the things we
could be talking about for this community right now, your fear
of rejection in this current climate of how bad it is, it's
just just shut up. Like, I'm probably not saying
this in a very politically correct way because I'm really
quite pissed off about it actually, but it's just not
helpful. Like, yes, it's everyone can sit
here and talk about their experiences and yes, the queer
community and the gay community and the LGBTQ plus community is
for everyone. And it's but right now your
effect of feeling, I can't even use the word fear potentially
like minutely outcasted by this community for dating a man or
having a boyfriend or whatever. It's not the same as like people
literally being killed, not being able to get married to
that other half anymore, their rights to have children being
taken away from them. Like can we just take a step
back and accept that sometimes things just aren't always about
us as in Betty who, like you talk about how much you love
this community and yet used also really harmful terms like the
alphabet society in this climate.
That's when you choose to do it in this climate.
And I don't want to come out publicly either and speak I'll
of or diss anyone in the media because like putting yourself
out there in in whatever form publicly is super hard.
And I've spoken about this before and I've had my own
struggles with it and issues with it.
But to the host, you run a lesbian podcast and I can say in
very good faith that if that person was sat in front of me
saying the things that she was saying and talking about this
community in the way that she was talking about it, just not
on my books. I'm sorry.
Like that was very poorly handled.
And again, it's just doing so much harm to this community in
a, in a time where we are literally getting kicked from
every angle whilst being someone that you put yourself out there
in the media is super difficult and you don't ever want to
offend people, of course. And you're, you're hosting this
podcast and you don't want to upset anyone and she's in front
of you. But like, if you're going to put
yourself out there as a lesbian podcast, then fight for your
this lesbian group and like fight for the lesbian community
primate. Like if you're a lesbian, I love
this that I love this community. I speak all the time about how
much I love this community wholly and fully.
But this is a lesbian podcast because I'm a lesbian.
This is my experience and and I want to give a voice to
primarily lesbians. And I couldn't sit opposite
someone who was able to shit on this community and basically
invalidate us again, like tell us that our sexuality just isn't
real and just kind of nod long. I first would have challenged
the shit out of it A&B if she doubled down, told her that she
wasn't welcome on the podcast anymore.
And that's not the LGBT community or the lesbian
community outcasting you for having a boyfriend.
No one gives that much of A shit.
We care when you can't just have a boyfriend and shut the fuck up
about us. You have to have a boyfriend and
then make it about you and make it about how it's an issue that
this community may not look at you in the same way if they feel
that they've been taken advantage of because again, they
have been. And yeah, I probably, again,
didn't make a great point there about what I was trying to say
about any of this. But it is just fucking
disappointing in the current climate that we're living in.
And I can promise you all that the guests that we get on, I
always trying to make sure I do due diligence and check and make
sure that they are people that reflect lesbian supper club
values under any time of the LGBTQ plus flag.
And you know, even there's been people now that I'm talking with
that are quote UN quote, you know, straight or or
heterosexual that I want to get on this podcast because I think
that they could bring a lot in other lenses.
Like Freya, for example, last week had one of our best friends
either on massive ally for the community.
Love her like it doesn't. You don't even really need to
queer, but you still have to have, you still have to sit on
the right fucking side of things, right?
And sometimes people can left field you during interviews.
But if you're going to host a podcast, it's on your shoulders
to make sure that you put this community first.
And if you can't do that, then don't speak up on behalf of this
community. Because I may not always say it
right, but I'm always grounded in fighting for this community.
And that goes for everyone as well, but lesbians first,
because this is what this podcast is.
And if you can't do that, put down the mic or if you make a
mistake, as far as I've seen, there's been no apology.
And I think sometimes that could go a really fucking long way.
So I'm sorry to have one that, again, listened to that felt
disheartened, felt let down by. But King Princess done a really
great job of breaking it down and basically laughing in the
face of this person, as did Renee Rapp, as did other amazing
people in the media. You're not alone and you're
upset about it and you're anger about it.
It doesn't make you an angry lesbian.
It makes you solid in who you are and it makes you want to
defend the person that you are and the label that you are and
the person that you've had to fight to become as well.
And don't let anyone shame you for that and make you feel like
you're not an accepting individual for simply calling
out. Well, it's homophobic rhetoric
basically, whilst you're sat there in a in a heterosexual
relationship and just shut the fuck up and stay away and don't
get involved in queer or lesbian focused predominantly podcasts
if you can't come on and even at the very least go on your own
journey but still be an ally. So that was my little mini rant.
I love to I've just complained of and I've picked up the mic
and I've complained about the weather and I've complained
about someone. But both important things to me
on today's episode I wanted to talk about.
Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for
everyone's responses and comments to my last episode
about living in the closet. It was.
It's so nice to hear your responses and to understand how
things land because you kind of sometimes are always walking
through the dark when you decide to.
Well, when I decide to do an episode on something, can I
choose a topic? I don't really think much about
it before I turn on the mic. I try and make it as kind of
authentic to me and how I think about things and how I approach
things, but it is always a bit terrifying because obviously the
topics are generally quite sensitive.
So I'm really grateful that it landed well and that it has an
impact. And I've said it before and I
say it again, that is why this podcast means so much to me is
that hearing from you guys and getting your responses about how
it's had a positive impact is like really, really rewarding
for me. And despite all of the struggles
sometimes I have in this world, and when I say this world, I
mean in the media world, that kind of stuff is what keeps me
going and keeps me focused and keeps me wanting to push on.
So I am super grateful and please don't stop D Ming me.
I tried to get back as much as possible.
Don't stop commenting on the podcast and giving feedback and
commenting on the episodes because it really does mean a
lot and it really does make a difference.
So off the back of my kind of living in the closet podcast
episode, I wanted to talk about the flip side of that, which is
the the kind of lesbian side of that and which again, is a
universal experience. So I think we could say that a
universal experience of being in the closet has happened to a lot
of us for some period of our journey, some for a lot longer
than others. But it's something that we can
all likely understand of realizing that we're gay and
having to go through the absolute emotional turmoil that
generally it causes most of us to be able to step outside of
that closet and become who we are and then become confident in
who we are. But on the other side of that,
you've then got the lesbians who are having to deal or not having
to deal, although I suppose yes, having to deal, who find
themselves madly in love with a quote UN quote straight woman.
And I want to start this conversation off by saying if
you have ever found yourself in love with a quote UN quote
straight woman who has kissed you multiple times passionately,
done more than kiss you multiple times passionately, has said
things to you that you wouldn't say to a friend and you know
sure as shit they wouldn't say to one of their friends, AKA
straight friends, then you haven't fallen in love with a
straight woman because that doesn't happen.
You have fallen in love with someone who can't accept or
doesn't want to accept or isn't able to accept who they are.
And I really want to dig into this and what that does to a
person because it is excruciating.
And actually it happened to me and I think shock, I'm a lesbian
and it happened to me. Of course it did.
Again, universal experience. I challenge most people
listening to this to tell me that it hasn't happened to them.
And if it hasn't happened to them, you don't understand the
level of lucky that you are. It happened to me.
But even my circumstance in which it happened to me, looking
back now, was probably a relatively easier circumstance
because at the time that I was in love with a quote, UN quote,
straight person, I also was kind of toeing the line of pretending
that I was straight. And yes, I got to myself.
Like, yeah, I got to myself faster than this other person.
And I think that I at the time was more open and able to
explore who I really was. And therefore it was painful to
love someone who wasn't in the same space as me.
But I was also really young and it was also an experience and it
was a learning curve. And looking back now, it shaped
me. And it, you know, it was a great
experience overall and I don't regret anything.
But it was like a really fucking excruciating 4 years of being in
love with someone who just wasn't able to love you back in
the way that you needed them to. Or rather was able to love you
back and did love you back in all the ways that you wanted
them to, but couldn't be the person.
It couldn't be that person for you was never going to become or
or come out in the way that you wanted them to.
And you would never be able to live and experience a
relationship with them in the way that you so desperately
wanted them to because they just weren't on the same trajectory
as you. And I remember that like
absolute obsessive pain that that would cause me of
desperately and deeply loving someone.
And I was young, but like I loved this person hugely.
I've spoken about it before, like we're friends now and I
still love this person massively.
Obviously the love is very different, but at the time it
was like first love, groundbreaking.
Also realizing that like This is why I didn't feel the same as
all my friends because I was gay so hugely like emotional time.
But I was super young and obviously I still had a life to
lead and it was just the, the, it couldn't have happened at a
better time. I think as a lesson for me,
because I was so young that everything was a lesson for me.
And I was going through so much change, you know, like
university or moving to London, discovering who I was as a
person, a young adult. So it was kind of wrapped up
into all of that. So it wasn't like just a
singular hyper focus. But even outside of all of those
other things I had going on, it absolutely still consumed me
from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to sleep.
Like I was obsessed with her. And I genuinely thought one day
it will be us and everything will be good and the sun will
rise and we'll be together on a beach and it will be
spectacular. And obviously this never
happened because I am a raging lesbian and she actually isn't
and wasn't, but was, you know, obviously on the spectrum in in
a slightly different way. And it was so painful to watch
someone that you love so desperately and you just want
them to like just give you everything that you want from
them and they can't because they have this massive blocker in
their life. And then on top of that, usually
it then comes with the absolute fucking distress of having to
watch them with guys. Or get boyfriends or have
partners. And it's a really fucking shitty
place to be. And I don't think we speak about
it enough because I think in the community, we kind of like
nuance it and turn it into a bit of a joke because like it is
funny in a way that we all kind of find ourselves absolutely at
some point in our journey, utterly obsessed with someone
who is in the closet, identifies or or labels themselves as
straight because that's as far as they can go.
And can't, you know, obviously be what we want them to be.
And then we know that going into it, obviously it never really
ends well. I'd like to hear some stories
actually where it has ended about ended well.
And we put ourselves through complete emotional turmoil for
as long as it needs really. I think we're lesbians are
concerned years, centuries wouldn't be long enough.
Actually, if we wanted it enough, we would kill ourselves
that the happy ending is there 9 times out of 10.
It's not these people find us for a reason, but it is.
And we all joke about it, I think because it is actually a
really quite like upsetting and for some a little bit traumatic.
But we kind of have to turn it into a joke because it's like if
you don't really laugh about it, you will just cry.
And it may just be the final thing that sends you over the
edge because it is so utterly consuming.
And I think the problem with it is or the reason why this
happens is because usually these people, as in straight people
and from a lot of you have written in today and again, like
I'll read them out at the end, Some of them, the experience is
the same for everyone, which is generally you meet these people
in all these these other women in relatively basic
circumstances, you know, work colleague, friend of a friend,
random meet somewhere. And you get this for some
reason, instant connection with them.
And the instant connection, let me tell you is because these
women obviously aren't straight. Like, let's just cut to the
chase of obviously what I'm going to say at the end of this
episode. Like, clearly they're not
straight because respectfully, no straight person is doing the
business. You know what?
Like, it takes, like, it takes a lot.
That's like me saying I'm a lesbian, but I could still do
the business with a guy, right? I ain't doing that because I'm
gay. And the thought of it literally
makes me feel violently unwell. So First things first, whatever
they've told you or whatever they've told themselves clearly
isn't the fucking case, Is it? Because no straight person wants
to sleep with a woman, full stop, end of Whether you're the
first, the last, the first of the 50th, that they may go on
and still hide and tell themselves they're straight.
Clearly that's not the case, but we almost go along with that
narrative because that gives them reason and gives us reason,
right? But generally, yes, we meet them
in relatively organic circumstances and we think we've
built such a great connection with this person.
And look, you may well do actually not may well do.
Of course, of course, you've built such a great connection
with them. And of course everything that
you've experienced generally will be very true unless they're
a narcissist. But a lot of the time, why these
connections come about and the fire comes about with them so
much so is because when these people live so in the darkness,
in their own understanding of themselves, and they meet gay
people who are happy to be outward about their sexuality,
be confident about it and own it.
They almost like latch on to us. And I know that's quite a
negative way of speaking about this other party.
And I don't mean it in that way. I mean it in a way of it's like
almost kind of it's like inspiring to them, I think.
And that I don't think they even consciously realise this.
But I even see it all the time now, like sometimes when I meet
people, those straight girls, and these are girls who could
also absolutely be straight, by the way.
And I can see that they don't really have any gay friends or
don't really know any gay people.
That when I say I'm a lesbian, you kind of see the like the
eyes widen a bit and not in a negative way, in a way of being
like, oh, fuck. Like this is a like gay woman
stood in front of me. And I think when you're in the
gay community and we kind of surround ourselves with each
other as much as we can, if we are able to find that community,
we forget that like, that is not most people's experience.
And actually a lot of people can go through a large proportion of
their life not having really any queerness close to them.
And so I think the first kind of step in the connection is them
meeting us and being like, fuck, you're cool because you are gay
and you're outwardly saying you're gay and that's
attractive. Like someone who is able to
stand up in who they are, whatever that may be, like gay,
straight, queer in the job, religion, like whatever is
confidence is cool. And so I think that is always
the initial spark. And then what comes off of that
is intrigue because they won't know it, but obviously they're
probably gay or queer or bi or pan.
And they come at you with the questions and the intrigue and
you watch them watch because they are obviously like have
that innate thing inside of them which they don't understand.
But there is like this kind of emotional happening where they
want to then know everything. And this is again like a classic
experience, right? We all get it.
And some of them are just like fucking nosy straight women.
I'm not even going to talk about how men approach it.
I don't the least airtime I can give them at the moment, the
better. And some women just ask out of
genuine curiosity because again, as I've just said to a lot of
people, they don't they they're not around gay people.
So I understand, like I personally couldn't think
anything worse of asking a straight person how that
marriage is. But you know, each their own.
And so they come at you with the questions and then the questions
lead into more questions. And then it's like they're
relating, not ever relating to the gayness, but being like, Oh
yeah, like I I had this great friend or that's so cool.
And so you start to kind of build that unique experience
with this person. And generally when lesbians fall
in love with quote UN quote straight women, we are 9 times
out of 10, probably the first lesbian that they have been in
close dynamics to. I wouldn't say close proximity
because I'm sure you're not the first lesbian they've ever met,
but definitely within a circumstance of which they've
been able to converse and open and ask those questions.
So they are then coming in quite strong.
And again, this is what I don't think it's a conscious thing
from their side at all. This is like an innate like
something's rumbling inside of them.
They don't even know what the fuck it is they will be telling
themselves. It's just because you're a
really cool person. End of you're sat there telling
yourself, fuck, OK, I'll be their friend.
And deep down, you know, from the start, you've sat down
because you are attracted to them.
Like let's not all kid ourselves.
And so you end up initially in this friendship dynamic and the
friendship can be incredible. And you know, you can kind of
span the real depths of of good friendships quite quickly
because you will be attracted to them and you will therefore lust
after them as lesbians like to do even with other lesbians, let
alone. And look, let's all be real.
Let's all be real, something a little bit unhealed in US wants
to prove a point. And the chase is obviously fun
and it's like all of that serotonin and it's hot and
whatever. So like you're going to be
coming in it from that angle. They're going to be coming at it
from an angle of like they feel seen whether they realise any of
this or not. They feel seen.
They've met someone who they can relate to more than their other
friends, which they've probably told a lot of you as well.
Like, oh, like I've had girlfriends my whole life, but
like, it's different with you. Yeah, babe, because I'm gay and
that you're, you're more attracted to me because of that.
And then so you build this like really lovely for a long time,
I'm sure. Or for some of you, it will go
zero to 100 quickly. Some of you will be slower
burners, but you build a really lovely friendship and then at
some point the tide changes on a night out at a restaurant,
toilets, what I don't know. Wherever it is, at some point a
move will be made. And from what all of you kind of
have messaged me, the move usually comes from them as well,
which I like because obviously we are all respectful in this
community. And then it kind of starts from
there, like there'll be a kiss and you walk away being like
fucking great, but also fuck. And they obviously walk away
with, I don't know because I've never been there, but I'm sure a
whole host of really fucking troubling emotions and scary
emotions. And all they are saying to
themselves at this point is like, what is it about this
person? They're not sat there thinking
shit. The person that I thought I was,
even though deep down I knew the person that I thought I was,
that I convinced myself as is maybe not that.
And so that's too much to digest.
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to put all of these
emotions and how I feel just onto this one singular
individual because that is more digestible.
And then you probably go through like a bit of a lull face of
back to friendship and then it happens again.
And then you usually get into the I want this but or I love
you, but La La, la, la, la, la, la.
And this is where like we all have to laugh at ourselves
because, oh, you said in that one month, 26, a year, two
years, I'm sure some of you listening to this probably done
it for a minimum of five because I don't know why because of
that. Actually, maybe that's a
question for our therapists, but again, like you've met someone
who you love and who has like come in at you, like Pollard,
like they've they've hyper focused on you because you are
kind of everything that they think is incredible that they
don't have within themselves. And so they are being that like
absolute force and you to them are that insane comfort and
giving them like understanding that they've never even had.
So the connection is obviously like super amazing and
impactful, but it's also torturous because then you know,
if you're you have to see them with a boyfriend or you become
really good friends and you go out clubbing together and they
look at you and then they're kissing a guy at the bar, which
happened to me. And it was that was hell.
That was actual hell. And you want you get so angry at
the time as well. You get so it's like it's like a
fire in your belly of like, what the fuck injustice.
And it doesn't feel like cheating.
It feels like not rejection. It feels like just complete.
It feels like a stab and I think it feels like a stab because if
it's like a stab to the heart for you because this is someone
that by this point you're deeply in love with.
Come on, we're lesbians that you probably deeply in love after
like the first two times of meeting them that you've had to
hide. And that's awful.
I think it feels like a betrayal, but not a betrayal on
you, almost a betrayal on themselves.
Because if they are different, if you truly believe this
person's bi or pan, but if you think that they are gay, it
feels like a betrayal because you're almost looking at them
being like you, motherfucker, because you're taking advantage
of me because you know that I can't say anything.
I'm not going to do that and that shitty because you're
trying to perform to society and I've had to do so much inner
work to not perform to society to be able to sit strong in the
person that I am. So it's almost a bit of like
fuck you to them at that point. But then there's also that like
layer of sadness and also fury about the self betrayal that you
watch someone do because it's like you're doing this as a
performance and this is hurting me and you're meant to care
about me. But at the same time, you're
hurting yourself and to watch someone that you really care
about hurt themselves and feel like they have to put themselves
into situations that make them feel really uncomfortable
because of what the world has taught them.
It's like a really sad place to be.
And it's a really hard place to be as a form of like self
protection as well. Because obviously every part of
you and your your friends or who any anyone that you may have
spoken to at the time will be saying to you cut the fucking
cloth and run a mile. Because like this is going to go
one way and likely they are correct.
But at the same time, this is someone that you love and that
you can see because you see them behind closed doors in a way
that no one else sees them. And you see them behave in a way
and become a person around other people that is just not them.
And it is fucking difficult and it is torturous.
And again, going back to like 1415 sixteen 17 year old
Scarlett who used to be that person.
Like even if I remember the feeling and I remember the like,
and as I say, like this person now, like it, it isn't gay.
But at the time I wasn't thinking about it that much in
depth. It just, I'm just going back to
the kind of betrayal of the situation at the time, which was
like, I know there was a deep shared love with this person and
they weren't able to explore that.
So they betrayed themselves in that moment.
Whereas a lot of you will be listening to this being like the
people that you have been in love with have just betrayed
themselves wholly because of the way the world is and because of
the internal homophobia that is like we've basically all been
nurtured into that. We have to then actively unpick.
And then on top of that, they're obviously really hurting you.
And then there's a lot of feelings thrown into that around
like if you love someone, why would you do that to them and
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. One thing I will say is that
people who love you and end up hurting you and when one way or
another they don't often hurt you because they don't love you
or they don't often hurt you out of selfish reasons, people often
hurt other people, whether it be right or wrong out of fear.
So it can be fear of being honest, it can be fear of not
wanting to let you down. It can be fear of wanting to
maintain whatever they have built for themselves, being
scared of themselves, being scared of what the reality of
their truth and your truth would mean.
And therefore people act in bad ways and it ends up hurting
someone else. But I do believe that most
people, particularly in these circumstances, even though they
can act like shit bags, which we'll get to with some of your
stories, aren't waking up in the morning and thinking about you,
someone that they probably do really love, and thinking I'm
going to fuck this person over today.
They're not thinking that. They're waking up thinking about
you and like you're giving them a load of emotions that they
literally would never have felt before.
And they will probably resent you for that a bit.
And it's not about you, it's about the situation.
And then they will also go above and beyond to do anything to run
from that. And you get caught in the
crossfire of that, which is really shit and really hurtful.
And I'm not trying to make excuses, but we also have to
hold space for like where other people are at in their lives.
And there also has to sometimes be a bit of self onus here of
like, yes, OK, it started off and friends and you fell into
it. But like deep down, guys, we've,
we know, we know, we 9 times out of 10 know what we're getting
ourselves into. And we have to take some form of
accountability. Even though it's fucking
painful. We have to take some form of
accountability and understand that even though it's hard and
even though it can be heartbreaking and it's like
super almost traumatizing and it's up and down, it's back and
forth and it's like really difficult.
There's two things here, which is 1, we're all adults and at
any point, even though it could be really fucking difficult, we
all have a choice to walk away. And two, you have to be able to
meet people where they're at if you want them in your life.
And you can't force people into a situation or to becoming
someone that you can see for them.
And it is painful. It is, it is hard to watch
someone that you love and you can see a lot of potential for
and in that will come from them accepting their sexuality.
Because once people accept who they are and love who they are,
their life becomes abundant in other ways as well.
And I truly believe that. And it's so it is hard and it is
frustrating to have to sit and watch someone in that.
But at the same time, you have to be able to take the higher
ground as almost kind of like the more experienced person in
this world, sorry, in this situation and be able to just
let them be where they're at. Because everyone has to just be
on their own journey. And it is difficult when you've
been caught up in the crossfire of it and of course, you've been
hurt. But like, again, we are all
adults and we can make a choice, even if it's difficult, we can
walk away or we can stay and cut the romance.
If if you're able to do that and just become friends or you walk
away or you know, however that looks for you, whatever is the
most suitable thing for you, you do.
But I don't think it's necessarily ever fair to punish
these people, even if they've not reacted in the best way or
acted in the best way sometimes, because we all kind of have a
part to play in this situation at hand.
And that's why, like, for me, the situation that occurred for
me when I was a lot younger, Oh my God.
There was times that like, yeah, like, I was furious, but I never
hated this person. And then I went on to get a
girlfriend. They went on to get a boyfriend.
And, you know, whatever I went on to to be everything called
like in myself, like my sexuality become everything that
I always wanted to be. And I never held like umbrage
towards that situation at all because like I said, it taught
me a lot and I wouldn't change it.
Like it was an amazing connection and it was an amazing
person in my life and it set me onto the journey of where I am.
And I do believe that like everything does happen for a
reason, as cliche as that sounds.
And you're allowed to be angry. But I don't think that we should
be necessarily ridiculing people in this space because we often
do go into it with our eyes open.
Yes, glossed with a fuck load of hope, which we need to.
To learn from each other on but like we have to be responsible
for ourselves and understand that everyone's just trying and
it's not always about us as much as it can be hurtful.
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second part about that as well, which is let's talk now about,
OK, so you've gone through this whole situation with this
person. It's lasted for however long
it's lasted, it's been amazing. You're in love, you think
they're in love. And and then one day the kind of
the fire erupts and it ends in whether you've called it because
you can't do it anymore or they've told you that they're
straight and they've walked away.
And you, it's just like, it's just fucked.
Like everyone's hurt, everyone's upset.
And I'm going to be speaking now to my lesbians and advocating
for you because I feel like I've given you a bit of a shit show
that being like, oh, you're in love and you're heartbroken.
Well, it's your fault. There is a lot to be said if
you're currently still heartbroken or in this situation
or going through heartbreak around this kind of person that
has come into your life and been an absolute whirlwind and
promised you the world and not been able to deliver or
backtracked or whatever it may be.
And you're kind of SAT there now being like, fuck, this is shit.
Like they've just going to go on and pretend that I never existed
because they do do that. Like they'll just pretend you
never existed or they'll get another boyfriend or they'll
just go back to their old lives. And you hear by conversations
through friends of friends or on social media or wherever it may
be. Oh great, they're fine and I'm
left here heartbroken. They aren't.
No one. Again, this goes back to like
the very first part of this conversation, which was like, no
straight person, no straight woman is having sex with another
woman, full stop. Literally nothing else to be
said, right? So there is no question about
that. Whenever you question yourself
about that, there is no question about that.
Let them. Let them go back to the version
of themselves they were before you.
Let them go back to the life that they had before you.
Let them go on to meet other people that aren't you and have
generally of going to be of the opposite sex.
Let them. Because I can absolutely promise
you that every day, multiple times a day, there will be a
quiet whisper in that deep in their gut and in their brain
about you and not only about you.
About what that experience meant for them and what reality that
holds up to them. And whether they choose to
accept it, acknowledge it, eventually come into their
truth, or never come into their truth.
This is kind of sadistic, but you can sit safe in your current
suffering, which is, I'm heartbroken, but your life will
go on like you're living in your truth, which is the most
empowering thing a person can ever do.
And therefore you will go on to have more amazing, authentic,
incredible experiences both with yourself and with other people.
And they will go on to have nice experiences, I'm sure, and good
experiences and good times. But there will always be a bit
of jaded narrative in anything they do around who they are and
who they're failing to show up to themselves as.
And therefore you will be layered on top of that because
you will be the association to that.
And it is kind of deep and dark to be like, well, I'm suffering
now, but you're going to be suffering for quite a long time
unless you step into your truth. But that is the reality.
And so there's no point in getting angry at yourself or
getting angry at them and questioning the why or this shit
happens. All that.
Like the amount of you that have come into my DMS and on the DMS
of the lesbian supper club podcast page as well, literally
all saying the same thing because again, like this is a
universal experience. They like they have to live in
that. And that is like, I'd rather be
me. Like I'd rather sit in the
heart. I'd rather be us.
I'd rather be on that side and sit in the heartbreak of like,
oh fuck, you know, this is someone that I could have seen
this with and it's been taken from me and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, shit, whatever. It's awful.
It's hard to want someone as well and never get them in the
way that you want them. Argue worse than a breakup,
blah, blah, blah, blah. But they have to go on and
pretend to be people that they're not and hide that from
themselves in the world. And like, I can't imagine.
And again, this kind of like why it goes on to the living in the
closet, like the weight that that must be because I even get
it now sometimes where I feel like I need to say something to
say to someone and it could even be menial, but I don't feel
comfortable saying it or I don't feel confident saying it or I
feel like I'm going to get attacked if I say it and it will
like it will eat me up. It will, it will literally eat
me up. I'll wake up at 3:00 AM in the
morning thinking about it, catastrophizing it, having
anxiety. It will play on my mind all
during the day until eventually I, you know, and this is menial
things, bury it enough eventually disappears because
I'm talking about minor conversations or I say it.
And when I say it, even if the outcome is not always want what
I want, I generally feel better. But that feeling of having to
carry that around is like a really heavy, horrible feeling.
And I can only imagine how it feels to have a feeling like
that times 1000 and have to just live with that.
And it is, again, like living in the closet, like knowing
intrinsically who you are and feeling like you can't live.
That is a form of fucking torture in itself.
And so as much as I think in the community, we kind of like give
a bad name to these experiences and to the people involved in
turn it into a bit of a joke and a bit of a facade.
It is actually just like a really fucking sad and shitty
situation for all involved. And there are no winners, but
certainly the straight person or the living straight person or
the hiding straight person, should we say?
Like they're the real losers here.
And I don't mean they are losers.
I mean, like, they lose more than anyone else.
Like we lose because we lose love and we lose a potential
that we saw in someone, which is really difficult.
They lose who they are every day and that's really fucking shit.
And if you're listening to this as the lesbian and you've been
caught up in this, it is shit. And I'm sorry.
And there aren't really any words.
It is just a really difficult situation.
And it's one that plays on your mind and it's one that you
replay and go over and it there you're trying to find the
answers. And a lot of the time there
aren't always the answers. And you just have to make peace
and understand and maybe even take a bit of solace.
And like, even if it didn't end the way that you wanted it to,
you have had an important part in someone's life, even if it
ends in tears. And there's a lot to be said
about that. And there's also just a lot to
be said about experiences that we have with people that end.
Even if you had a relationship with this person, it could end.
Things generally do end. I don't want to sound
pessimistic, but that is just actually life.
And so take it for what it was and take it for the amazing
experience it was and take it for the love that you found in
that person. And then you pick yourself up,
you walk forward and you move the fuck on.
And that's my advice to the lesbians.
Leave people where they are. Let them be where they are.
You can have the conversation once and give them the keys.
You could have maybe the conversation a second time or a
third time. Give them the keys, show them
the doors. It's up to them to walk through
it. If they don't want to, they
aren't able to, they don't feel confident or they want to stay
where they are, let them. Hate to sound like Mel Robbins,
actually I do love Mel Robbins, but just let them.
Let them be where they are and you go on and live your life and
become an even better version of yourself having lived this
experience. And to the quote UN quote
straight person listening who maybe is in this or is listening
because you have done this to someone and it does haunt you.
I'd love to hear from you. Or if you're in this and you
don't know what the fuck to do because you're terrified and you
don't feel ready to show up for this person, but you love them
and you don't want to leave wherever you're at or you're
scared or whatever it may be. I don't think honesty can be
underserved here. And you just have to be honest
always about where you're at. And if you're with or the person
that the gay woman that you're in love with, if you're all you
can be is honest because it is a really difficult situation.
And if they're not able to meet you with love, and when I say
meet you with love, they can even say, look, I love you, but
this isn't going to work for me, but I respect you and I
understand and I'm going to let you be.
That's still meeting someone with love, even if they can't
sit on the sidelines or if they decide to sit on the sidelines
or whatever. That's a good response.
If you're scared of telling this person because they are
ridiculing you. And this goes out to the
community as well. If you've ever done this to
someone, don't because it makes you a Dick.
If they're ridiculing you or pressuring you or pushing you
towards something, irrespective of their sexuality of them
being, that's not, that's not a good person and that's not
something you should want to be with irrespective of the
situation of your sexuality. And yes, there's always layers
to it in emotions and people react sometimes in bad ways.
But if they can't roll back on sometimes ignorant comments that
they may say, oh, you may feel pressured or you may feel
responsible, don't because everyone is responsible for
themselves and it is not your job.
Yes, they can be hurt. Yes, it can be sad, Yes, people
can get frustrated, of course, but there is a way of handling
it. And sometimes, even if we handle
it wrong, there's a way of apologizing.
And if this person in your life that you love and it's your
first woman experience and you absolutely adore, but they
aren't showing up for you in those ways, irrespective of the
sexuality side of it, that's just probably not someone that
you should be with, full stop. If they are showing up well and
they're holding space for you, but you're still terrified,
you're allowed to sit in a space for as long as you need to sit
in a space, and you're also allowed to set someone free with
love. And that was all.
That's all I'll say on that is like, yes, with a lot of these
situations, you can't have it all.
So you do often have to make a choice, even if it's the hardest
choice you'll ever make. One way or another, you can set
someone free with love and maybe they come back around in years
to come and you just become incredible friends and you
become who you are and actually go on and meet someone else or
you end up together or whatever that may be.
That's fine. You can hold love for that
person, but be honest and honour yourself.
Take the time that you need, but also it won't go away.
And that's all I will say is you.
You can't pray it away, you can't distract yourself away
from it. You can't convince yourself, you
can't tell yourself stories. You can't it just, it will sit
there. And maybe there are external
circumstances that prevent you and permit you.
And if that's the case, then I'm really sorry and I hope one day
those circumstances will change. If it's yourself or just a bit
of fear, take the time that you need, but you eventually will
one day have to come to yourself.
And if you don't, then that will be a pretty sad way to live.
And as the good old Chapel Rome did say, good luck, babe.
Is that a really awful way to end this conversation?
But what else can be said? Because that song is so true
for, like, all parties involved. It is so true.
And again, there is a bit of a narrative there of, like, poking
funnel, like sticking it to the man of being like, yeah, fuck
you. Because like go back to that
life and like you've got to sit in that and suffer.
And there is that kind of thing that we all get if we're
heartbroken where we're like, well, we do want that person to
suffer for a bit because we are heartbroken.
And I can completely understand that.
I don't think it's a nice feeling to carry towards someone
who's literally suffering long term.
But we can sit in that for a bit.
But it quite literally is like, if that's what you're going to
do and that's how you're going to go on and convince yourself,
just good luck because it won't go away.
And that is all I have to say on that.
And I'm going to read some of your stories on this now instead
of doing horror stories, just so you know, we all feel a little
bit more in it together. So story number one, I love the
opening of this. Being victimized by a straight
woman is my speciality. Neither of us are out.
So we had a secret relationship, but she'd publicly hook up with
guys we knew. And I couldn't react to anyone,
which is literally what I was saying earlier when she'd tell
me she had sex with them after she'd already done it and I'd
cry. She'd call me dramatic and say
she knew I'd react that way. This was my first relationship
and it went on for four years. This is what I mean.
Like we we are dedicated For four years until she left me to
start dating one of the guys and would ask me to have threesomes
with them. I'm gay and obviously I said no.
The perks of growing up in a conservative town.
I didn't actually touch on this during my my conversation.
What? Don't, don't do that.
Don't ask lesbians to have sex with men to make it easier that
you have to have sex with men. Like, we've made a choice and
we've come out and we've had to deal with that.
And it might not be easy for you to do that and that's fine, but
let us be like that. That's fucking shitty.
That's shitty. Like don't ask gay women to have
sex with men to make it easier for you to have sex with men and
live out your fantasies and toe the line because that is really
fucking shitty behaviour. Love this one.
And this is again like when I say good luck babe.
One time I made out with a girl in a club and then two days
later she changed her Instagram bio to include her new
boyfriend's initials. It's been 7 years and she still
likes my Instagram stories to this day.
And this is exactly what I'm saying.
Like good luck babe, you can do literally anything you can try
to do to make it OK for yourself, but like it will
fucking haunt you. We will haunt you.
This is this is the kind of karma and I don't want to say
that, but for some of you who need to hear it, that's what
they have to go on to do whilst we go on and live our fucking
lives. Like this is exactly what I'm
saying. So just let them.
Good one. Had a massive crush on a friend
who basically used me as her ego boost.
She dropped lines like you'd be the perfect boyfriend so cut the
attention. Even had me agreeing to a
threesome with her and her guy just to be close.
Sorry you had to do that or felt like you had to do that.
After years of her playing games, one night she couldn't
pick up anyone at the bar and so I finally got my one-on-one.
She told me it was her first real orgasm and from then on I
just felt pity. Years with dudes and she'd never
even known what pleasure was. Far as I know, she's still
straight. And again, it's just like, it's
fucking sad. It's sad for us because like
this poor person who's written in again, like clearly like this
person enough, they've fucking put themselves in an awfully
uncomfortable, traumatizing situation and had a fucking
threesome with a guy for someone that they loved, which no one
should ever have to be doing. And then the girl goes on to
tell them that she's literally never come from a man before.
Again, universal experience of what these girls say and go
through. We've heard it all.
And then they go on to continue to date guys.
Like I'm literally I wish you could.
I should have been videoing this because I'm just frantically
rubbing my fucking forehead. Make it make an ounce of fucking
sense. Please someone someone, because
if you're like this person, for example, like is clearly out
enough to be able to have at least threesomes and include a
woman. I don't know.
I know it's so much more socially acceptable and they can
hide behind the fact they do it for their man gag.
Disgusting. Grow the fuck up.
But like still, like you know, you're you're you're entering
into that space and yet you to have sex with a woman, it's
undoubtedly going to be the best sex you've ever had in your
life. Let's not get into the
technicalities over if women or men are better in bed, although
I've got a lot to say about that.
But like that will piss a lot of people off.
Let's just keep it down to like if you're probably gay or women
leaning that you're obviously going to enjoy sex more with a
woman despite if she's better in bed or not because she will be.
And then you think, no, I'm just going to go back and just spend
the rest of my years having to lay there and punish myself
probably three to four times a week.
Why? Like why one of you just said
war flashbacks and honestly fair what else to be said?
This one's great. Sorry I shouldn't laugh but it
just you guys literally I didn't read a lot of these until now.
So I've done this whole episode talking all of this stuff and
then you're literally all reiterating and validating me.
Thank you. This person said got a boyfriend
introduced us and then pulled me aside to say she's stood in love
with me. Guys, I was advocating for you
girls, as in just the quote UN quote straight girls, but these
this these submissions are making it a little bit
difficult. They are, but it does go back to
the fact you're in a situation with your boyfriend who you're
probably fucking parading around being like, oh, he's so good to
me, blah, blah. And you've got to pull this girl
aside and tell her you're in love with that because that's
where you are. That's where your heart is and
that's where your head is. And that shit on that girl
because you're playing with her fucking head, but not to
anywhere near enough the degree of like the internal playing
that you have to deal with every day.
Oh this one, this is a good one and this one pisses me off.
And I've spoken about this I think before but I'm going to do
it again. 2 drunk straight girls fighting over me at a friend's
wedding. Then messaged my friend the next
day saying how funny is pretending to be gay yesterday
with like a like laughing face. I think she means that.
How funny was it pretending to be gay yesterday?
And this girl then said, bearing in mind I have a girlfriend and
literally wasn't reciprocated at all.
Odd behaviour. Why do they fucking do this?
Why? Like for me, again, contrary to
this whole episode, 1 of the hottest things to me when I'm
attracted to someone is like, if you're gay, like I fancy you.
If you fucking love girls, like that's a huge thing for me.
And if you are out there looking, sorry, there's no other
way to put it, but if you're out there behaving cock hungry, I
don't fancy you. Like if you're one of those
girls that performs for men and this this isn't like the
straight women who have like got themselves into relationship
with guys because of like external circumstances and you
can see the pain in their eyes. Like that's different, right,
But the girls that like love to like do it because they'll just
do it probably again, like severe, severe homophobe, like
internalized homophobia, but then they like perform for men.
We don't want you like literally, it's so unattractive
to me that you fancy men that much.
I'm sorry, I'm probably offending a lot of people here,
but it is it's true. It's like my preference.
I don't just I don't want you. We don't A lot of us just don't
want you. We you could literally be the
most attractive person in the world.
And but if that's kind of like the way that you are, trust me,
we don't want you. You don't need to perform for us
or like come to us or pretend that or tell yourself that we
want you because we're gay. And therefore some of you think
we're desperate, which is weird because, like, you're still
ugly. I'm joking.
That was bad. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Why did just don't just don't do
that stop again, a wasted Karen called my wife and I such hot
lesbians and tried to kiss us both on the lips.
What? What the fuck?
Like who are giving like who's giving these people the rights?
But again, like, that's because she's got to go home to her
husband who probably stinks and his beard is like just and yeah,
he probably doesn't brush his teeth and farts all night long.
And just. And so I'm not excusing this
behaviour, but like sometimes when straight women do act like
animals in this way, you can kind of understand because like
they are basically caged with a man and they don't fancy them.
Just hot take love this person. I was a straight woman with a
husband and now I'm getting divorced with a girlfriend.
I probably shouldn't read this without because I don't think a
lot of you need that hope because I don't think that's
great advice actually, because I think we will just need to like
as I said, leave people where they are.
But this does tie into the feeling we'll never go away.
So they'll either stay and just be unhappy.
That's shitty to say, but it's the truth.
Or girls, some of them, they do have an awakening and they do
come out the other side. So there is a teeny bit of hope,
but you still have to go on and live your fucking life and don't
wait for them. OK, Literally so many of these
that I'm going to screenshot all of them and I think probably do
another episode on this and maybe try and find a guest who
was the straight girl and screenshot all of your responses
and read them out on the next episode because I am running out
of time. But this just read like, like I
said, I've read some of them this morning when I put this out
there and then I'm literally reading through them all now
properly whilst I'm literally recording this.
And there are so many and a lot of them like I can't do justice
to now just in this kind of part of the podcast.
And so let me know if you have found this at all helpful.
And if you would like to have me have someone on who maybe can
come at it from the other lens and speak about their journey
actually going through this. And then we can go through some
of your stories in more detail, more as like a back and forth
conversation because I'm actually not depressed, but it
is actually quite sad now reading how many of you are
replying to this. And I want to be able to keep
kind of coming back to these conversations.
And I'm not repeating topics of the Lesbian Supper Club podcast,
but I will always revisit these key conversations because things
evolve in society. I think every time we visit them
and all of our experiences evolve as listeners and as me
and like as me kind of talking about it as well.
And I think it's just super important to always shed light
on these types of things because they are just, they are really
shitty situations for both parties.
And I think sometimes just even hearing someone talk about it is
just nice and a little bit refreshing.
So yeah, I am sorry that I actually can't go through all of
your submissions today because there are really a lot and I
don't just want to skim past them.
I've kind of the ones that I've touched on have been ones that
we can kind of just canter through and, you know, give a
quick back. But there are some of you that
have gone into more detail and spoke more specifically, and I
really want to be able to actually break those down.
So please do let me know if you'd like me to kind of revisit
this topic. And if you have anyone that you
know that you see online that has kind of told this story from
their perspective of being in the closet and then coming out.
Wouldn't it be fucking great if I could get Chrishell on, for
example? That would be really cool, I
think, and it would make for a really good episode.
But anyway, I've chatted your ears off today and it's a Friday
evening and I'm ill, but maybe I would like a beer.
I love you all so much. I'm sorry for both sides if
you're going through this because there are there's not
really any winners here to be honest.
It's just shitty. But it is always an experience.
And I think no matter how things turn out, if you're able to find
an honest love with someone And when I say honest, like I love
that behind closed doors is honest and real and raw, then
that's never a bad place to be, even if the outcome isn't always
great and what you wanted. But I do love you all so much
and I hope that you have an amazing week and I will see you
very soon. Do not forget to follow us on
the Lesbian Supper Club podcast page which is at Lesbian Supper
Club Pod on Instagram. Please follow us on Spotify or
Apple or wherever you listen to us.
Please always comment on episodes and let us know what
you think. Give us a rating like it does
already help. It really helps with the
direction of this podcast and helping us understand you better
and where better we can kind of the voices for this community.
So it's always super useful and I'm really grateful for that.
And if you haven't yet, check out our events.
The link is in our bio and Instagram.
And for those of you who aren't in London and who aren't able to
get to London, I promise you in the next few months, we are
spreading our wings and we'll be going further and wider and I
can't wait to see you all very soon.
Love you guys, goodbye.