1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,160 Hello everyone, welcome to today's episode of the Lesbian 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,840 Supper Club podcast. You are joined by Scarlett today 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:12,720 and I've got a pretty sensitive topic that I want to discuss 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,320 that I think is where a lot of our listeners and followers of 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,560 the podcast lie, but never really get as much maybe airtime 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:26,560 or potentially feel a little bit invalidated or unseen sometimes 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,800 within the queer community. But before I jump into that, I 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,000 just just want to talk briefly about, well, I suppose are we 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,600 still calling it Les Topia? Do we call it that anymore? 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:38,960 Is that a thing of the past? Because I feel like it's still 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,080 very much happening in the world of lesbians online. 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,160 But one topic I do just want to kind of cover off quickly is the 13 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:53,200 recent, how do we put this, the recent unfolding of JoJo Siwa in 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:58,760 the Big Brother house and her partner or now ex partner Kath 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,360 Ebbs and two sides of that experience. 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,120 If you aren't familiar with this, just to give you a bit of 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,920 background context, JoJo Siwa has been, I think online and in 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,280 the media ever since she was basically born. 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:19,080 She was one of the characters of Dance Mums and then since the 20 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:24,200 end of Dance Mums, she continued to build media career for 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,880 herself which has spanned from dancing, singing, performing on 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,920 TikTok and basically as far as JoJo Siwa goes, I'm pretty sure 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,920 she has done pretty much everything out there. 24 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,760 She recently went into the Big Brother house in the UK and 25 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:44,880 initially sparked outrage, not because of her, but because 26 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,080 there was a issue between her and another housemate, Mickey 27 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:54,200 Rourke, who said some really quiet horrendous things to JoJo 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,640 and made some pretty horrendous statements about queerness and 29 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:05,600 also just the dangers of misogyny in society, which I 30 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,320 touched on previously. Post that kind of whole debacle, 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:16,000 JoJo formed a very close friendship with another 32 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,960 housemate called Chris. And it's not really for me or 33 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,440 anyone to depict the displays of that friendship or how that 34 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,720 friendship formed. But it was a very close 35 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,560 friendship, one where many people would feel that a lot of 36 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,520 boundaries were crossed. Considering JoJo very openly 37 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,840 went into the Big Brother house in a relationship, in a 38 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,880 committed relationship with her partner at the time, Kath Ebbs. 39 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,200 And as the Big Brother show developed over the three weeks, 40 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,680 I think that they were in there, there were some pretty 41 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,880 questionable displays of behaviour and affection between 42 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:06,400 Chris and JoJo, which then stirred a pretty big outrage on 43 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,120 the Internet. And then post JoJo leaving the 44 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,400 Big Brother house, there was a very quick breakdown of 45 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,840 relationship between Kath and JoJo. 46 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:23,240 And it's a really difficult one because naturally, and I think 47 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,840 the obvious 1 is that there were clear lines of disrespect there 48 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:31,200 and some really bad ways of handling things. 49 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,560 And I think that whenever you are in the media, no matter how 50 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,800 old or the situation, and just actually outside of the media, I 51 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:45,200 think we all have a responsibility to behave in the 52 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,160 best interests of ourselves and other people. 53 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,320 And whilst I think that we're all human and we all make 54 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:56,040 mistakes on the daily, actually there is a line, especially when 55 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:01,240 cameras are on you and you know someone else could be affected 56 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,360 by your behaviour so publicly, that you should potentially take 57 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,040 that into account. JoJo made some statements on the 58 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,720 show that basically alluded to the fact that she had realized a 59 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,399 few things about herself. And then also subsequent to 60 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:20,920 that, a few things about the relationship, which then 61 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,920 unfolded into Kath flying over from Australia to meet JoJo 62 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,240 after the show had ended. And JoJo very quickly called off 63 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,960 the relationship. And there's two parts to that 64 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,680 story. There's Cat's side and then 65 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,480 there's Jojo's side. And I don't think it's really 66 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,680 for anyone else to kind of say who's right or wrong. 67 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,400 But I will say this, which is a lot of people, particularly 68 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,480 straight people. The most disturbing thing that I 69 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,280 saw was that a lot of people were excusing and actually 70 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:58,200 beyond excusing, advocating for this behaviour. 71 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,600 And I don't necessarily think this is because people were 72 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:09,240 advocating for the overstepping that was happening a lot. 73 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,760 I think people actually just generally in society still don't 74 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,800 really recognise queer relationships. 75 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:21,360 And that for me was kind of the weirdest thing to to watch 76 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,720 unfold, which was a lot of comments online about how they 77 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,960 had something special and therefore anything else beyond 78 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,200 that was fine. And I think that can ring true. 79 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,480 I think you can be in a relationship and things change 80 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,720 and people change and those things do happen. 81 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,640 Those things happen all day, every day. 82 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,840 Sadly, none of us are are special to those things 83 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,360 happening to us or to the people around us. 84 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,480 But the most disturbing thing for me was that people almost 85 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,480 excused all of that because it felt like she was going from a 86 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,800 queer relationship, which I think so many people in society 87 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,540 or just society generally still don't recognise as quote, UN 88 00:06:00,540 --> 00:06:04,360 quote real. And going into a heteronormative 89 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,800 relationship or what people thought was entering into a 90 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,520 heteronormative relationship. And therefore we're kind of 91 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,680 celebrating that forgetting the facts or actually not even 92 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:21,480 forgetting, just completely dumb to acknowledging that the 93 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,000 existence of queer relationships in all of their different forms 94 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,040 are just as valid as any heterosexual relationship. 95 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,280 Involve just as many feelings, involve just as much heartbreak, 96 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,920 and involve just as many issues and actually predominantly the 97 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,480 same issues as what heterosexual relationships experience. 98 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,280 And I think the saddest thing was that people just couldn't 99 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:49,240 really seem to grasp that concept. 100 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,640 So for me, that was where I think as the community, the big 101 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,400 issue should lie, not really lying on who was right or who 102 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,720 was wrong, because I think so many people will form different 103 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,400 opinions of that. And I do think that the way that 104 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,880 Kath was treated was completely disrespectful and should never 105 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,480 have happened and that should never have happened to them. 106 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,800 And I think the public element of that is awful and my heart 107 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,040 really does go out to them. And I don't think anyone should 108 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,480 be excusing that behaviour put down solely to Jojo's age, 109 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,560 although I do think it plays into it hugely. 110 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,880 Being in the media at the age of 21, being on a live well live at 111 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,720 the time, but obviously cut down for viewers. 112 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:47,320 Digestion should be used to kind of make that behaviour better or 113 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,760 acceptable. She is young, but she's also old 114 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,000 enough to go on the show and old enough to make decisions and has 115 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,680 clearly had many, many of life experiences that probably even I 116 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,840 and most of us listening to this are, still have not experienced 117 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,520 and have not had potentially the guidance. 118 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,480 But then I also acknowledge with that guidance comes a lot of 119 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,480 opinions and involvement of people in your life as a young 120 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,920 person. And I do think she has clearly 121 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,160 been guided and told what to do a lot of her life. 122 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,240 So probably being thrusted into an environment where for the 123 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,560 first time she was alone and had to think for herself was 124 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,480 probably hugely liberating and made her realise a lot of things 125 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,240 about herself. I do just think that that should 126 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,360 have been handled a whole lot better. 127 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:42,600 And I think Kath handled that situation overall with a lot of 128 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:46,600 a lot of grace and through a lot of heart still managed to uphold 129 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,040 a lot of grace. I know a lot of people talk 130 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:56,040 about as well online the age gap, which again for me I do 131 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,840 think does play into this. I think Kath is 27 or 28 and 132 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,280 JoJo is 21. And whilst obviously there is 133 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:09,080 nothing practically wrong with that, when I think about myself 134 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,920 as a 21 year old, myself as a 28 year old and actually even now 135 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,960 myself as a 30 year old, the changes in growth that you go 136 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:23,840 through is massive, monumental. And I think that when you are 137 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,720 of, from my personal experience being now 30, I couldn't think 138 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,160 about dating a 21 year old. It wouldn't appeal to me at all 139 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,320 just because the age for me just wouldn't appeal to me. 140 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,880 But also the emotional age. And I think the growth that you 141 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,240 would kind of had to guide someone through just in their 142 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:50,120 life, their sexuality, emotions, conversations, handling 143 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:55,680 difficulty is, is a huge, huge responsibility. 144 00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:58,120 And I think that sounds like a bit of a bizarre way to put it 145 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,800 because you're in a relationship with that person. 146 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,600 You're not their mum or their sole caregiver. 147 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,720 But I do think when the age difference in the 20s is kind of 148 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:16,280 early 20s versus late 20s, it can be bigger than just years. 149 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,280 It can be, as I've said about all of that emotional growth 150 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,720 that is very much needed. And I don't think you can 151 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:30,040 necessarily always relate on the same level to someone where 152 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,880 there is such a big age gap. But again, I do think that that 153 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:41,440 unfolding was horrendous. And I think that it should be a 154 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,840 huge learning curve for JoJo. And I think the sad thing about 155 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,440 that is from what I've seen, it doesn't really seem that way. 156 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,360 She doesn't seem to be taking a lot of responsibility. 157 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,120 But beyond that, I think the way that the world has received that 158 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,760 unfolding has actually been the most disappointing element of 159 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,680 it. Not only how the world responded 160 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:07,760 to the initial homophobic, misogynistic comments from 161 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,800 Mickey, which were horrendous and took so long for anyone to 162 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,880 actually act on and do anything about, they then just 163 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,720 disregarded her queer relationship entirely to push 164 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,240 this narrative of this heteronormative relationship. 165 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,480 And I've even then seen comments which are further disgracing 166 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,880 that basically from men saying ha ha Mickey was right. 167 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,600 Is anyone going to give Mickey apology? 168 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:37,000 Why would anyone give a man threatening a young woman who 169 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:42,000 has also abused other women in the media industry and very 170 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,880 likely beyond any form of apology. 171 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,640 Also, are we lacking brain cells so much so as society that we 172 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,160 can't acknowledge that two things can exist at once? 173 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:01,240 Which is her journey of her sexual identity is very very 174 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:08,760 different to someone completely ridiculing and over sexualising 175 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,640 her sexual identity. The two things are just not even 176 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:20,040 anywhere near in the same space. So that was my very boring take. 177 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,120 I don't think that there's a space for gossip on this 178 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,120 podcast. I think we can talk about 179 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,280 situations that happen in the media because they're always 180 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,160 relevant between, you know, Les Topia, TikTok, lesbians, 181 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,160 breakups, makeups, all of these things that go on in the media. 182 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,640 But broadly, I think for me, it always comes down to the 183 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,720 narrative of like, what sits behind that? 184 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,440 That's the problem. And again, definitely what sits 185 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,920 behind that is how our existence is still basically a 186 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,920 laughingstock. And I think it's really sad that 187 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,960 whilst we all sit online and argue between ourselves around 188 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,440 who was right or wrong, between Joe and Kath, which isn't really 189 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,400 for anyone to discuss other than themselves and between 190 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,360 themselves. And if they choose to put their 191 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,800 emotions and opinions of their story online, then absolutely. 192 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:13,080 But I think it's sad that as a community we often get hung up 193 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,720 on that and actually don't raise our head above water and look at 194 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,800 the wider picture of the the kind of unfolding of that and 195 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:27,400 the narrative that surrounds it. So that's my hot take on JoJo 196 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,920 Siwa and Cath Ebbs. But today I wanted to talk 197 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,720 about, and I suppose it kind of actually ties into the narrative 198 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,520 of the JoJo Siwa and Cath Ebbs because JoJo herself said that 199 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,600 she has questioned a lot about herself during that time. 200 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,920 And when she says that, I'm assuming she means anything from 201 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,280 her gender identity to her sexuality and likely beyond. 202 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,960 And I think in light of Lesbian Visibility week, I was having a 203 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,400 little think about what I wanted to come on and talk about today 204 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,560 and I was struggling, struggling a little bit for topics. 205 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,480 I've had a pretty stressful week. 206 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,280 I've been down in Cornwall trying to finish off renovating 207 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,240 the property that I have here, which is stressful because going 208 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,320 against every grain of my lesbian being, I've realised 209 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,840 that no matter how hard I try, I'm just not very good at DIY. 210 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:27,160 And so even measuring a kitchen cabinet has become a highly 211 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,400 stressful task for me to carry out. 212 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,680 I bought a drill the other day with none of the drill bits. 213 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,200 Why can no one just add those in? 214 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,360 Like, why would you have to buy those separate? 215 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,320 Like surely if you're buying a drill, you're buying everything 216 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,920 to operate the drill, right? So that's been a little bit 217 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,520 stressful. And amongst all of that, I've 218 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,360 been trying to think about what I could come on and talk about 219 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,240 today that hasn't been discussed before or if it has been 220 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,440 discussed before, maybe not in the depth that has been needed. 221 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,160 And yeah, in light of Lesbian Visibility Week, and I was 222 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,320 thinking about this during Lesbian Visibility Week, you 223 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,040 know, the very fact that it's called Lesbian Visibility Week, 224 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,560 to me feels very much about it being for visibility of 225 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:22,520 lesbians, AKA visible lesbians. And of course, to celebrate our 226 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,760 existence and our visibility in US Living truthfully in our 227 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,760 queerness and celebrating ourselves and celebrating each 228 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,200 other and being loud about our existence is incredible and 229 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,760 something we should. I would have Lesbian Visibility 230 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:41,960 Week once a week for every month of the year because there's 231 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,720 still so much work to be done in this space. 232 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:50,120 But it did get me thinking about everyone that exists that don't 233 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,880 know if they're gay, question every day if they're gay. 234 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,120 It eats them up inside. They know they're gay, but 235 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,920 they're in the closet and they just live in that closet not 236 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,360 knowing how to come out. Or they've tried to come out and 237 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,400 it's been such a terrible experience. 238 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,760 They've gone back in the closet and I don't really think we 239 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,240 speak about that enough during Lesbian Visibility Week or 240 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,600 actually at all. And it's funny because looking 241 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,520 at the statistics of this podcast, anything to do with the 242 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,760 title lesbian, any of those buzzwords like lesbian gay that 243 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:28,280 we put in our in in episode titles generally always grow a 244 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,320 lot faster. And I can only imagine that's 245 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,520 because, and I can't only imagine, I can probably speak 246 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,840 for this as fact. That's because there's a lot of 247 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,160 you listening and there's a lot of people in the world that do 248 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,560 have that battle everyday before they come out or if they ever 249 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,000 come out where they question if they're a lesbian. 250 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:54,360 And in order to find the answers to those questions, we do that 251 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,160 very classic thing now where we put it into Google or we put it 252 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:04,000 into YouTube, or these days we put it into whatever platform we 253 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,480 listen to our podcasts on. And I know that because I used 254 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,480 to do it, AKA search the hashtag lesbian on Tumblr or when 255 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,760 Instagram first came out and everyone loved the hashtag on 256 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,520 Instagram. Although I know they're very 257 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,640 much making a comeback, I would hashtag search the word lesbian 258 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,720 to try and find other lesbians around the world who had the 259 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,160 hashtag lesbian in their photos to try and understand this 260 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,360 community and see if I related to it. 261 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:40,400 And that's why I have a spread of lesbians that I follow on 262 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,040 Instagram that quite literally span across the world that over 263 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:49,360 the years I have spoken to or formed online friendships with 264 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:51,480 these people that I feel like I really know. 265 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,760 Because back in the day, which makes me sound so old. 266 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,560 And I am still struggling with being 30, which I know 267 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,040 everyone's going to say is so young and I know it is so young, 268 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,640 but I still feel like I haven't achieved enough. 269 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,000 And I get in my head about it. But I definitely have a gaggle 270 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:12,680 of lesbians across the world that I have followed for the now 271 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,520 14 years that I have been out whom I found because I was 272 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,320 searching the hashtag lesbian on Instagram. 273 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:26,680 And so I really, yeah, wanted to talk today and break down the 274 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,960 question, how do I know if I'm a lesbian? 275 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,880 So if you are here with that question and whether you're 17 276 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:40,760 or 37, single, married, going through heartbreak, or even just 277 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:47,280 curious, firstly, I can promise you that you're definitely not 278 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,880 alone. And this episode is kind of 279 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,320 again, for anyone who thinks themselves, is this just a phase 280 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:59,600 or is this actually who I am? And I asked a few of my friends 281 00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:04,640 about this topic and this question and asked them, if you 282 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,320 cast your mind back, what was those initial thoughts and kind 283 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,640 of how did they transpire into actions or, or things that 284 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,480 you've done both having conversations in your head and 285 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,000 just physically to, to try and figure it out. 286 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,840 So one of my friends said, which is a classic. 287 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,880 I've already mentioned this. I used to Google can straight 288 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,560 girls like their best friend more than their boyfriend? 289 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:30,840 And this person said they've done it multiple times a week. 290 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,920 And it's really funny because I don't think any queer person 291 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,240 ever has a unique experience because I done this. 292 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,840 I had boyfriends from, you know, obviously innocent relationship 293 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:50,920 but quote UN quote boyfriends from the age of 11 to 17 and 294 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:55,120 during that time was also completely infatuated, obsessed 295 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:59,400 and in love with my best friend and so would quite literally ask 296 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,560 myself the question or Google the question in multiple ways 297 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,040 multiple times a week. Can straight girls like their 298 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,840 best friends? Why does it feel different for 299 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,880 my best friend than it does my boyfriend, etcetera, etcetera. 300 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,080 If you're listening to this and you've Googled that, maybe you 301 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,280 should create yourself like a little checklist and we'll go 302 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,640 through this podcast episode and we can do like a rating at the 303 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,280 end of you're definitely gay, you're questioning and maybe you 304 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,600 just need some more exploring or you're straight. 305 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,080 And I can probably tell you that the last one doesn't exist for 306 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,920 anyone listening right now, because you probably wouldn't be 307 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:43,200 here listening to me gaggle on about this if you weren't trying 308 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,080 to find the answer. And hate to break it to you, 309 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,320 maybe that's the answer. Someone else said to me that I 310 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,280 realised I won't be a lesbian when my boyfriend proposed and 311 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,120 my action wasn't joy, it was pure panic. 312 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,040 And this one I haven't personally experienced 313 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,480 Touchwood, thank God, no man has ever proposed to me. 314 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,720 And I can safely say I don't think any man ever will propose 315 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,160 to me. But I can relate in the sense of 316 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:16,360 having boyfriends when I was younger, who at the time, I 317 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:19,960 really, you know, that kind of like puppy love vibe like I've 318 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,080 I've got a boyfriend and you want to do all the things that 319 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,560 you see your friends doing, like holding your boyfriend's hand, 320 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,800 first kiss, all of that stuff. But I know for me that when my 321 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,560 friends would talk about those experiences when we were younger 322 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,200 and having crushes and kissing their boyfriend for the first 323 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,440 time, or going to their boyfriend's house, or their 324 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,120 boyfriend coming over to their house or going to a date that 325 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:46,680 was probably a McDonald's, they would be buzzing about it. 326 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,280 And I would be sat there pretending to be buzzing about 327 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,800 it, thinking that was probably a huge waste of four hours of my 328 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,400 life because I just sat there the whole time thinking about 329 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,320 what to say to keep the conversation going because I was 330 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:08,040 so hugely awkward and probably not wanting to be there, but not 331 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,480 realising that. So just trying to fill a void 332 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,680 within myself. So again, if you are listening 333 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,200 to this and you are on dating apps or you're meeting guys in 334 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:25,800 whatever situation and after the initial chit chat dies down and 335 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,320 you feel yourself potentially scrambling to push conversation 336 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,640 and your mind's wandering elsewhere and there's just 337 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,600 something really deep at the pit of your stomach that doesn't 338 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,400 feel quite right. It's probably not because you've 339 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,000 got something wrong with you and it's probably not because the 340 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,160 poor guy's got chit chat, although that can also very much 341 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,680 be the case that the guy can just have chit chat. 342 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:53,160 It probably is something else that you feel and biology and 343 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,320 Physiology and your body does not lie. 344 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,520 And if you're sat in a situation with anyone actually, but we're 345 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,200 just going to tailor this to if you're thinking you're a lesbian 346 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,800 or not and it just doesn't feel quite right. 347 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,520 You feel like you're putting on a bit of a mask or you don't get 348 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,640 those butterflies that your friends talk about. 349 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,840 That's probably another good sign. 350 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,120 And then the third one was a friend of mine and I just wrote 351 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:26,160 this down saying honestly, I was 35, I was married to a man and I 352 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,200 was watching the Elwood for the first time. 353 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,440 I paused the episode, looked at the screen and was like, oh 354 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,920 shit, the penny dropped. I can't relate to this one in a 355 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,320 sense of being 35 because one of I always speak about this like 356 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,640 one of my greatest blessings or something that I'm so grateful 357 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,760 for to younger me was having the strength in a small town in 358 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:54,720 Somerset to own my truth and jump out of the closet. 359 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,040 When I realised like when the penny really dropped for me, 360 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,720 which was basically when I went on a date with my first 361 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,000 girlfriend and it felt so normal to me. 362 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,200 I just owned who I was intrinsically. 363 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,400 And I know that is so rare and I know that was also probably in a 364 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,040 very privileged space to do that. 365 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,160 And it doesn't mean I didn't struggle and had to have hard 366 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,200 conversations because I definitely did have to do both 367 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,520 of those things. But I know comparably to other 368 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,120 people who will be listening to this, they will be thinking 369 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,520 about those conversations and they will be very aware or even 370 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,160 acutely aware that the experience of coming out and 371 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:38,760 dealing with those thoughts or feelings will be a lot harder. 372 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:44,240 So I don't want to bypass other people whose background or 373 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,480 family dynamics or friendship dynamics or where they live and 374 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,400 make it seem like, well, you should just come out and then 375 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,600 everything will drop and everything will be fine because 376 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,520 that's for so many people, not going to be the case. 377 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,560 But I am super grateful that I was in a position to be able to 378 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:08,880 do that and own my sexuality and then go on to live in my 379 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,520 sexuality very solidly now for a very long time. 380 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,720 So I haven't had to go through the further progressions of 381 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,480 life, which is as you grow up, getting a job and hiding your 382 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,480 sexuality, continuing to have to hide it from your friends for 383 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,720 years and years, continuing to have to hide it from your family 384 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,200 for years and years. And then the worst part of it, 385 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,680 ultimately, then probably meeting someone and having to 386 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:41,480 fall into the cycle of life and society, which is you meet 387 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,120 someone, you date, you move in, you get a dog, you propose or 388 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:47,560 you propose, and then you get a dog. 389 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,040 And then you get married and then you have the kids and you 390 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,240 fall into all of that. And then there's that just that 391 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,840 silent niggle in the back of your mind or in the pit of your 392 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,520 stomach that something's not right. 393 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,520 And it's not until maybe watching the L Word or seeing 394 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,960 some other queer representation, which is why queer 395 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,520 representation is so, so important and feeling more 396 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,080 related to that than you have ever any of your own experiences 397 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,880 in life. And again, if you are listening 398 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,080 and those things have happened to you, it's good. 399 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,440 It's hard, but it's good because you're exploring yourself and 400 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,320 you're dealing with these emotions and these thoughts and 401 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:28,880 these feelings that are coming up. 402 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,560 But of course, it's also really hard. 403 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,000 But I know so many of you will be listening to those 3 404 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,400 scenarios that I've just read out. 405 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,320 And no doubt you'll be able to relate to 1 or maybe or three. 406 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,720 And you should take some solace in knowing that you're not 407 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,800 alone. And I want to take the moment as 408 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,280 well to highlight that no matter where you are or no matter who 409 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,480 you are, no matter what your past experiences are, there will 410 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,160 always be a community somewhere for you that will welcome you 411 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,880 with open arms, hold you, and be there to support you in whatever 412 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,000 stage you are in your life or in your queerness journey. 413 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,800 And that's fine. And you may come out to 1 friend 414 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,240 and then decide to stay in the closet for another two years. 415 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,880 That doesn't invalidate your gayness. 416 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,960 It doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you wrong for 417 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,000 feeling that or maybe feeling like you should be questioning 418 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,720 yourself because you're not committing fast enough or just 419 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:27,680 enough. Generally. 420 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,240 You're still very much part of this community, and you're still 421 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,400 very much part of Lesbian Visibility Week. 422 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,640 Like I said, for some people it really is like a lightning bolt 423 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,880 moment, and for others it is slow, Like realizing, I don't 424 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,320 know that a song that you've always loved is in a completely 425 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,200 different key to what you thought it may be. 426 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,880 And those things are all valid and there's no one way to know 427 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,320 going on from the struggle of recognizing things. 428 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,440 And I've kind of already touched on this a bit, but I truly 429 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,680 believe a lot of it comes down to compact. 430 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,560 And if you don't know the term compact, compact stands for 431 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,760 compulsory heterosexuality. It would help if I could 432 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,680 actually say that correctly. It's basically the idea that 433 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,320 we're all just raised to assume that we're straight and that 434 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,480 straightness is the default. And it's basically what we see 435 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,800 every day, in every story, every film, and just every expectation 436 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,440 of ourself. So if you are a girl and you're 437 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,280 not repulsed by the idea of men, you're told you're probably 438 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,360 straight. But that's not necessarily true. 439 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:52,600 And compet teaches us that admiring women doesn't equal 440 00:28:52,600 --> 00:29:01,800 attraction, and wanting men to like you equals desire and 441 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,360 kissing the boys that you didn't want to kiss or never felt quite 442 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,400 right. Kissing is just a part of being 443 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,960 a teenager and working out who you like. 444 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,560 And obviously it is working out who you like. 445 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,280 But maybe who you like just isn't men. 446 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,280 And the truth is, I think so many of us performed 447 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,160 straightness and continue to form straightness because it 448 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,960 basically is the only script that we are given. 449 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,520 And This is why I bang on so much. 450 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,440 And I think the podcast bangs on so much about visibility in the 451 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,920 media, visibility in our daily lives, in queer spaces, in 452 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:40,120 community, because these things are so important as providing 453 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,040 foundations to the unravelling of anyone who has sat there 454 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,160 questioning. This is an advertisement from 455 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,920 Better Help. Stress and anxiety can show up 456 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,440 in all kinds of ways, and people don't always realise the 457 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,080 physical symptoms it can bring, like headaches, teeth grinding 458 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,280 and even digestive issues. In a world that's telling you to 459 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,720 do more, telling you how to be, telling you how to behave, I'm 460 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,960 here to remind you that it's so important to take care of 461 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,960 yourself, do less, and even maybe try some therapy. 85% of 462 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,040 Better Help therapists have a strong expertise and anxiety, 463 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,520 and 69% of Better Help members report improved symptoms after 464 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,040 just six weeks of therapy. I've spoken previously that I've 465 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,400 been in therapy for a while now. I don't do it as religiously as 466 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,080 I did at one point, but I use Better Help religiously for most 467 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,200 of last year. And when I felt like I really 468 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880 needed someone to talk to that understood me, that was able to 469 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,360 break down the way that I was dealing with thoughts, feelings, 470 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,960 emotions, and just the way that I was navigating myself through 471 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,040 the world, it was super, super helpful. 472 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,200 As the largest online therapy provider in the world, Better 473 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,560 Help can provide access to mental health professionals with 474 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,720 a diverse variety of expertise. Get the tools to manage your 475 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,160 anxiety with Better Help. Our listeners get 10% off their 476 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,080 first month at betterhelp.com/LSE. 477 00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:03,480 That's Better Help. Help.com/LSEand yeah, I think so 478 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,920 many of us just performed it because it was the script we 479 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,120 were given. I was, I remember being given 480 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,640 that script is like being really young and it's actually kind of 481 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,640 gross because you look back and you're like, I was a child and 482 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,000 kind of, it's a weird thing that adults do, which is borderline 483 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,560 sexualisation, where people would comment on my appearance 484 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,520 and then be like, you'll marry a really handsome man one day or 485 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,640 you know, you're going to, I have all the boys running after 486 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,000 you. And I think when people say that 487 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,920 to you enough times, it does just create that pathway in your 488 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,280 brain and you don't really think about any existence outside of 489 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,040 that. And it's I, I didn't for so 490 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,000 long. I definitely didn't. 491 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,040 And even when I did, I didn't know what it was and I didn't 492 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,680 know what to call it. So it just went to the back of 493 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,320 my mind for most of my younger teenage life because an 494 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,320 alternative narrative just wasn't provided to me. 495 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,400 And it doesn't mean that I didn't know lesbians existed. 496 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,880 Of course, I knew lesbians existed, but not in a way where 497 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,640 I ever thought that that would be my life because no one had 498 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,240 ever told me otherwise that that could possibly be my life. 499 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,720 And if you have ever dated men and you've never really felt 500 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,720 anything real, and alongside that, you've always had an 501 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,000 intense admiration for women, but you've just brushed it off 502 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,280 as I just, you know, just love other women. 503 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,480 Like, it's just a admiration, like respect thing. 504 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,400 That can definitely be those things, but it could also be a 505 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:34,440 queerness screaming within you. I want to do a small like quiz 506 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,560 now about is this gay or and I'm just going to run through 4 507 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,880 scenarios to help with your checklist as well. 508 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,880 They're classic scenarios that I again think is pretty much a 509 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,160 universal lesbian experience, and if you can relate to them, 510 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,440 it may be a pretty good indication. 511 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,360 So the first one is you rewrote the end of every Disney Princess 512 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,960 movie so the Princess runs off with her best friend. 513 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,160 Two, you told everyone you were straight, but your Pinterest 514 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,360 board says otherwise. Three, you've said quite a few 515 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,520 times. I just really admire that girl's 516 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,720 energy while staring at a woman with tattoos and a nose ring for 517 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,960 10 minutes. And I know that these are so 518 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,080 classic and they're so binary. But again, from personal 519 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,720 experience, when I was first realising my queerness, I loved 520 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,040 the things about lesbians and that generally do display 521 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:30,240 lesbians more so AKA tattoos at the time, piercings, shorter 522 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,680 haircut, all of those things, the way that they dress way more 523 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,320 than what I do now. And that's not because I still 524 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,800 don't admire those things now, but because I'm safer in my 525 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,160 queerness. I don't feel like I need to 526 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,720 chase after those things and other women. 527 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,200 Whereas definitely when I was younger, the quote UN quote 528 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,360 gayer looking the girl almost the better at times. 529 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,200 And look, these aren't diagnostic tools, but they can 530 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,760 clues about working yourself out and working out where you may 531 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,320 lie on the spectrum. And I know again, I've spoken a 532 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,520 lot just about the term lesbian here. 533 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:12,120 And of course it can range from lesbian to bisexual and anything 534 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:15,480 in between. Queer, it is a spectrum like 535 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,400 anything. So I don't want you to think, 536 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,760 well, I do still genuinely have these feelings for men and 537 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,320 you're using the term lesbian and making it one or the other. 538 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,239 Obviously, I'm speaking on this podcast from my personal 539 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,280 experience. So I can only give rationale and 540 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,920 kind of guidance on my experience and how I felt and 541 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,560 how those feelings and thoughts came up for me. 542 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,880 It will look different for not just any lesbian, but anyone who 543 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,480 sits on any end of the spectrum. So I'm not trying to push every 544 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,159 push anyone out here or make out that if you haven't ticked all 545 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,360 these boxes, but you're still truly questioning that you 546 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,640 couldn't be queer or gay. It's just usually they do tipple 547 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,560 to kind of one side or the other. 548 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,480 And then I think going on from that as well is almost again, 549 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,800 pushing from society. But I've got a real problem with 550 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,640 society at the moment, don't I? But I actually do have a problem 551 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,760 with society at the moment. Society at the moment is shit. 552 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,120 I spoke about this on a subscribe Series A couple of 553 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,320 weeks ago. That we have basically gone back 554 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,440 in time in society, which is no shock to anyone I would imagine. 555 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:34,000 But both like politically, culturally, it seems like just a 556 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,400 horrible place to be, which is getting worse. 557 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,400 And I think the impact that that's having on marginalised 558 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,040 groups is astronomical. Trans women not being recognised 559 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:49,000 as women in the UK. Trump's policies disgrace 560 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,080 Australia. Some of the things that have 561 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,840 been coming out of their election? 562 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,800 Absolute disgrace. I don't pretend to be a 563 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,760 political mastermind, but I don't think it takes a genius to 564 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,520 say that it's a pretty scary time to be. 565 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,920 And within that I think the myths that then can come up and 566 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,360 make us all question ourselves and doubt ourselves. 567 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,360 Whilst it feels like the the wrong side of the world is 568 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,520 getting stronger and stronger and they're kind of building an 569 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,040 army trying to strip us of our existence across the whole 570 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,800 spectrum of queerness is pretty shocking. 571 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,240 And I think it does have an impact, particularly if you are 572 00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,920 someone who's not 100% grounded in who you are and your 573 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,680 sexuality will make you again hideaway and question yourself. 574 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,760 And so I kind of wanted to go over some myth busts, which are 575 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,640 things that I think are said in the media, can be said 576 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,800 innocently by friends and family, or maybe not so 577 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,440 innocently but come across as innocently, which make you 578 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,960 question yourself. And I just want to go through 579 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,960 them and then break them down 1 by 1 and give my 2 pennies worth 580 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,320 as to why I think they're bullshit. 581 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,120 So myth 1 is I've dated men so I can't be a lesbian. 582 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,560 Or when you tell other people that you're questioning your 583 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,200 sexuality, they tell you that you've dated men. 584 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,840 So that can't be right. Obviously that's really fucking 585 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,120 stupid because I used to hate cheese, which I know is not 586 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,080 probably the best comparison, but I did. 587 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,480 I hated cheese for a large proportion of my life. 588 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,640 Everyone around me love cheese and I never liked cheese. 589 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,480 I just didn't like the taste. I couldn't understand it and now 590 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:36,760 I fucking love cheese. So just because one thing 591 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,200 existed for us at one point in our life and we are very 592 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,400 grounded and solidified in that experience that we were having 593 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,240 at the time and where we were in that time of our lives, doesn't 594 00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:50,640 mean that that will transpire through all of our lives. 595 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,200 Because we all grow and change and change our minds everyday 596 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,280 about who we are and what we want and who we want around us. 597 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,560 And I think we're almost punished in society or question 598 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,080 for that and told that there's something wrong with us if we 599 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,560 start questioning the the narrative that we've lived for 600 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,920 so long or just questioning society's expectations. 601 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,800 And again, it puts us into a really vulnerable space of 602 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,880 questioning ourselves. But of course, just because 603 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,360 you've dated men doesn't mean you're not queer. 604 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,720 And it might mean, as I said, you're on the spectrum of 605 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,720 queerness where you're bi so you date both men and women. 606 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:32,920 Or you're queer and you emotionally are way more 607 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,400 attracted to women in a relationship sense but are still 608 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,520 sexually attracted to men vice versa. 609 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,920 Or you could have been in a relationship with a man for the 610 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,000 last 10 years, had two kids, and still absolutely be as much of a 611 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:52,160 big fat lesbian as what I am. The second myth is I've never 612 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,280 been with a woman, so how can I know? 613 00:38:54,320 --> 00:39:01,000 Or I've never been with a woman so I can't be gay again, stupid. 614 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,680 I'm just going to call it how it is. 615 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,800 That's a really stupid way of thinking because straight people 616 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,520 aren't told that they need to straight like they need to sleep 617 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,880 with both genders to prove their straight, like their 618 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,840 straightness or their heterosexuality. 619 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,640 They just often sleep with the opposite gender and that's that. 620 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,840 Like, there's no question there because that's quote and quote 621 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,160 the way it's supposed to be. And that's obviously not right. 622 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:28,120 Your feelings and your patterns matter. 623 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,920 And just because you've slept with one or haven't slept with 624 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,960 the other doesn't mean you're invalidated on either side. 625 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,000 So let's not gaslight ourselves into this either. 626 00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:42,960 You could again, be a huge lesbian and have never slept 627 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,200 with a woman and know that you would be absolutely hopeless at 628 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,800 doing so the first time few times you've done it, although 629 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,440 you probably wouldn't be. And again, it doesn't mean that 630 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,480 you're not gay or that you questioning yourself is not 100% 631 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,200 valid. And then the third one, which I 632 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,840 think keeps people in a space of not speaking up or not 633 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,680 acknowledging themselves and their thoughts and feelings is 634 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,800 what if I changed my mind? And it kind of relates back to 635 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,480 just what I said there about Myth 2. 636 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,640 Changing your mind is absolutely fine. 637 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,520 Sexuality can evolve. Lord knows I hope mine doesn't. 638 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,240 And I've said this multiple times and it may be quote UN 639 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:24,760 quote heterophobic of me. If I woke up tomorrow on top of 640 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,520 everything else that we all deal with in daily life and 641 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,680 questioned that I might start be liking starting to like men 642 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,480 again, that would probably send me into the biggest fucking 643 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,320 crash out a person could ever experience. 644 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,200 I have no shame in saying that, but obviously my struggle of 645 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,200 that is very different to the generalized societal struggle of 646 00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:48,680 it being on the other end. But of course, sexuality can 647 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,600 evolve. You're allowed to change, you're 648 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,880 allowed to learn, and you're allowed to explore your thoughts 649 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,000 and your feelings without guilt or without having to put 650 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,560 yourself in a box or put yourself in a room with a 651 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,760 massive barricaded door to lock that door up and then Chuck the 652 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,360 key through the letterbox and have to stay there forever. 653 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,560 You may be in a relationship right now with a man that's 654 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,400 unhappy for multiple reasons, your sexuality being one of 655 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,760 them. You may leave that man, go and 656 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,280 date a woman for two years and then you and her break up for 657 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,080 whatever reason, which I will warn you, where lesbians are 658 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,520 concerned, there is quite literally no reason that we 659 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,240 couldn't be able to bring to life. 660 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,600 And then six months after that, meet someone at a bar who 661 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,880 happens to be a man and think to yourself, fuck, actually, I 662 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,880 wasn't a lesbian, I was just bi or I'm queer. 663 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,720 And it wasn't just me being gay, it was the relationship not 664 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,920 being right. And you can completely fall for 665 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,600 that guy and that's absolutely fine. 666 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,800 As I've said, touch wood. You can hear me touching wood 667 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,760 here. That never happens to me. 668 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,160 But if it does, I'd like to think that having practised what 669 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,480 I preach, I'd be able to deal with it with some ounce of 670 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,720 grace. It would be more for me giving 671 00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:15,040 up an identity which I fought so hard to be so comfortable in. 672 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,040 I would struggle with the unpicking of that. 673 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,680 But of course I'm also, I would hope they're opposed enough to 674 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,480 know that it's absolutely fine and we all do grow and change 675 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,840 and I would hope my friends still accept me. 676 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,360 My now would probably fucking love it, but let's not go there. 677 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,400 But yeah, here's the thing with like queerness. 678 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,920 It's not about ticking boxes. It is quite literally about 679 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,560 listening to yourself. Not your fears, not what your 680 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,480 mum wants, not what your friends want or they're doing in their 681 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,400 life with their potential happy marriages or unhappy marriages 682 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,600 that they pretend they're happy and they're four kids or they're 683 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,120 10 dogs. It's about you and how you feel 684 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,640 and not what anyone else or the world expects of you. 685 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,480 I feel like I've rambled a bit as always, but I hope this has 686 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,480 been useful to anyone who is living with this everyday. 687 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,280 I lived with it from I think when I reached more 688 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,200 consciousness about relationships and sexuality and, 689 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,200 and sex and, and all of those things, which probably like at 690 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,520 the age of 13, let's be honest, it, it happens a lot younger. 691 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,840 And I struggled with that for four years and it was a really 692 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,280 long four years. And even though that feels like 693 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,920 a really long time ago, I remember it eating me up every 694 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,040 single day. It would be on my mind, taking 695 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,920 up a huge proportion of my thinking, my feelings and my 696 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,760 doings and the way that I navigated myself in the daily. 697 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,480 And it wasn't a very nice place to be. 698 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,480 And so if you're young and you're listening to this and you 699 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,680 feel like that, I'm sorry and you will be OK. 700 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,520 But I do think there's a bigger element to this as well, which 701 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,760 is the element of those that are in their mid 30s, late 30s, 702 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,160 forties, fifties, 60s, whatever that is. 703 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,120 And you've had to live with that niggle a lot longer. 704 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,560 You are seen and you will be heard and you're not outside of 705 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,720 this community just because you're not jumping up inside 706 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,680 this community. I wanted to Createspace today 707 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,560 and kind of talk through some of those things that I think a lot 708 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,480 of you listening. What are the conversations that 709 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,560 you will just be having with yourself on the daily? 710 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:33,160 And I know that it can be super exhausting and sad and a really 711 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,560 scary place to be. And this episode isn't about 712 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,080 telling anyone or coaxing anyone to make decisions or to come 713 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,720 out. It is just actually about that 714 00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:47,080 recognition and allowing yourself to go on that journey. 715 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,280 And if you go on that journey and decide to do nothing with 716 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,840 going on that journey, then that's OK. 717 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,440 It is may be a sad thing, I hope no one would listening to this 718 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,560 would go through their whole lives not being able to accept 719 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,640 who they are and live true to who they are. 720 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,520 But it's not here to coax anyone out of the closet or make 721 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,280 anyone's experience of staying in the closet invalid. 722 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,320 I just wanted to create a space where we can talk about it and I 723 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,040 would love to obviously hear more. 724 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,840 So to wrap up today's episode, how do you know if you are a 725 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,920 lesbian? And truly, I think we've got a 726 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,760 cross that there is no one answer. 727 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,480 There's lots of categories and tick boxes if we're going to 728 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,960 have a joke about it that you can go through. 729 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,960 But one thing I will leave this episode on is that if you are 730 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,280 asking the question, and if you're wondering if you're 731 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,920 turning it over in your mind, hoping that there's a space for 732 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,840 that truth, then yeah, you may be. 733 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,120 And you're not weird and you're not broken and you're not faking 734 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,720 it. You are basically just trying to 735 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,720 find your way home to yourself that probably you haven't LED 736 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,520 yourself astray from, that the world has kind of LED yourself 737 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,200 astray from. And I think that's something 738 00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:04,120 worth honouring and worth giving yourself grace for. 739 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,440 And if you think you can, maybe one day giving yourself the 740 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,680 strength to act on. So thank you for listening today 741 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,280 to the Lesbian Supper Club podcast. 742 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,880 And if this has resonated with you, please also send it to 743 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,440 someone else that you think may need it. 744 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,680 Please leave a review, share this on your stories, come talk 745 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,040 to us about it in the DMS. You don't have to be a certain 746 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,960 way to be valid. And until next time, lesbians 747 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,200 and questioning lesbians, questioning buys questioning 748 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,440 queer people. Stay soft, stay curious, and 749 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,520 stay potentially queer. Love you all, goodbye.