Hello everyone, welcome to today's episode of the Lesbian
Supper Club podcast. You are joined by Scarlett today
and I've got a pretty sensitive topic that I want to discuss
that I think is where a lot of our listeners and followers of
the podcast lie, but never really get as much maybe airtime
or potentially feel a little bit invalidated or unseen sometimes
within the queer community. But before I jump into that, I
just just want to talk briefly about, well, I suppose are we
still calling it Les Topia? Do we call it that anymore?
Is that a thing of the past? Because I feel like it's still
very much happening in the world of lesbians online.
But one topic I do just want to kind of cover off quickly is the
recent, how do we put this, the recent unfolding of JoJo Siwa in
the Big Brother house and her partner or now ex partner Kath
Ebbs and two sides of that experience.
If you aren't familiar with this, just to give you a bit of
background context, JoJo Siwa has been, I think online and in
the media ever since she was basically born.
She was one of the characters of Dance Mums and then since the
end of Dance Mums, she continued to build media career for
herself which has spanned from dancing, singing, performing on
TikTok and basically as far as JoJo Siwa goes, I'm pretty sure
she has done pretty much everything out there.
She recently went into the Big Brother house in the UK and
initially sparked outrage, not because of her, but because
there was a issue between her and another housemate, Mickey
Rourke, who said some really quiet horrendous things to JoJo
and made some pretty horrendous statements about queerness and
also just the dangers of misogyny in society, which I
touched on previously. Post that kind of whole debacle,
JoJo formed a very close friendship with another
housemate called Chris. And it's not really for me or
anyone to depict the displays of that friendship or how that
friendship formed. But it was a very close
friendship, one where many people would feel that a lot of
boundaries were crossed. Considering JoJo very openly
went into the Big Brother house in a relationship, in a
committed relationship with her partner at the time, Kath Ebbs.
And as the Big Brother show developed over the three weeks,
I think that they were in there, there were some pretty
questionable displays of behaviour and affection between
Chris and JoJo, which then stirred a pretty big outrage on
the Internet. And then post JoJo leaving the
Big Brother house, there was a very quick breakdown of
relationship between Kath and JoJo.
And it's a really difficult one because naturally, and I think
the obvious 1 is that there were clear lines of disrespect there
and some really bad ways of handling things.
And I think that whenever you are in the media, no matter how
old or the situation, and just actually outside of the media, I
think we all have a responsibility to behave in the
best interests of ourselves and other people.
And whilst I think that we're all human and we all make
mistakes on the daily, actually there is a line, especially when
cameras are on you and you know someone else could be affected
by your behaviour so publicly, that you should potentially take
that into account. JoJo made some statements on the
show that basically alluded to the fact that she had realized a
few things about herself. And then also subsequent to
that, a few things about the relationship, which then
unfolded into Kath flying over from Australia to meet JoJo
after the show had ended. And JoJo very quickly called off
the relationship. And there's two parts to that
story. There's Cat's side and then
there's Jojo's side. And I don't think it's really
for anyone else to kind of say who's right or wrong.
But I will say this, which is a lot of people, particularly
straight people. The most disturbing thing that I
saw was that a lot of people were excusing and actually
beyond excusing, advocating for this behaviour.
And I don't necessarily think this is because people were
advocating for the overstepping that was happening a lot.
I think people actually just generally in society still don't
really recognise queer relationships.
And that for me was kind of the weirdest thing to to watch
unfold, which was a lot of comments online about how they
had something special and therefore anything else beyond
that was fine. And I think that can ring true.
I think you can be in a relationship and things change
and people change and those things do happen.
Those things happen all day, every day.
Sadly, none of us are are special to those things
happening to us or to the people around us.
But the most disturbing thing for me was that people almost
excused all of that because it felt like she was going from a
queer relationship, which I think so many people in society
or just society generally still don't recognise as quote, UN
quote real. And going into a heteronormative
relationship or what people thought was entering into a
heteronormative relationship. And therefore we're kind of
celebrating that forgetting the facts or actually not even
forgetting, just completely dumb to acknowledging that the
existence of queer relationships in all of their different forms
are just as valid as any heterosexual relationship.
Involve just as many feelings, involve just as much heartbreak,
and involve just as many issues and actually predominantly the
same issues as what heterosexual relationships experience.
And I think the saddest thing was that people just couldn't
really seem to grasp that concept.
So for me, that was where I think as the community, the big
issue should lie, not really lying on who was right or who
was wrong, because I think so many people will form different
opinions of that. And I do think that the way that
Kath was treated was completely disrespectful and should never
have happened and that should never have happened to them.
And I think the public element of that is awful and my heart
really does go out to them. And I don't think anyone should
be excusing that behaviour put down solely to Jojo's age,
although I do think it plays into it hugely.
Being in the media at the age of 21, being on a live well live at
the time, but obviously cut down for viewers.
Digestion should be used to kind of make that behaviour better or
acceptable. She is young, but she's also old
enough to go on the show and old enough to make decisions and has
clearly had many, many of life experiences that probably even I
and most of us listening to this are, still have not experienced
and have not had potentially the guidance.
But then I also acknowledge with that guidance comes a lot of
opinions and involvement of people in your life as a young
person. And I do think she has clearly
been guided and told what to do a lot of her life.
So probably being thrusted into an environment where for the
first time she was alone and had to think for herself was
probably hugely liberating and made her realise a lot of things
about herself. I do just think that that should
have been handled a whole lot better.
And I think Kath handled that situation overall with a lot of
a lot of grace and through a lot of heart still managed to uphold
a lot of grace. I know a lot of people talk
about as well online the age gap, which again for me I do
think does play into this. I think Kath is 27 or 28 and
JoJo is 21. And whilst obviously there is
nothing practically wrong with that, when I think about myself
as a 21 year old, myself as a 28 year old and actually even now
myself as a 30 year old, the changes in growth that you go
through is massive, monumental. And I think that when you are
of, from my personal experience being now 30, I couldn't think
about dating a 21 year old. It wouldn't appeal to me at all
just because the age for me just wouldn't appeal to me.
But also the emotional age. And I think the growth that you
would kind of had to guide someone through just in their
life, their sexuality, emotions, conversations, handling
difficulty is, is a huge, huge responsibility.
And I think that sounds like a bit of a bizarre way to put it
because you're in a relationship with that person.
You're not their mum or their sole caregiver.
But I do think when the age difference in the 20s is kind of
early 20s versus late 20s, it can be bigger than just years.
It can be, as I've said about all of that emotional growth
that is very much needed. And I don't think you can
necessarily always relate on the same level to someone where
there is such a big age gap. But again, I do think that that
unfolding was horrendous. And I think that it should be a
huge learning curve for JoJo. And I think the sad thing about
that is from what I've seen, it doesn't really seem that way.
She doesn't seem to be taking a lot of responsibility.
But beyond that, I think the way that the world has received that
unfolding has actually been the most disappointing element of
it. Not only how the world responded
to the initial homophobic, misogynistic comments from
Mickey, which were horrendous and took so long for anyone to
actually act on and do anything about, they then just
disregarded her queer relationship entirely to push
this narrative of this heteronormative relationship.
And I've even then seen comments which are further disgracing
that basically from men saying ha ha Mickey was right.
Is anyone going to give Mickey apology?
Why would anyone give a man threatening a young woman who
has also abused other women in the media industry and very
likely beyond any form of apology.
Also, are we lacking brain cells so much so as society that we
can't acknowledge that two things can exist at once?
Which is her journey of her sexual identity is very very
different to someone completely ridiculing and over sexualising
her sexual identity. The two things are just not even
anywhere near in the same space. So that was my very boring take.
I don't think that there's a space for gossip on this
podcast. I think we can talk about
situations that happen in the media because they're always
relevant between, you know, Les Topia, TikTok, lesbians,
breakups, makeups, all of these things that go on in the media.
But broadly, I think for me, it always comes down to the
narrative of like, what sits behind that?
That's the problem. And again, definitely what sits
behind that is how our existence is still basically a
laughingstock. And I think it's really sad that
whilst we all sit online and argue between ourselves around
who was right or wrong, between Joe and Kath, which isn't really
for anyone to discuss other than themselves and between
themselves. And if they choose to put their
emotions and opinions of their story online, then absolutely.
But I think it's sad that as a community we often get hung up
on that and actually don't raise our head above water and look at
the wider picture of the the kind of unfolding of that and
the narrative that surrounds it. So that's my hot take on JoJo
Siwa and Cath Ebbs. But today I wanted to talk
about, and I suppose it kind of actually ties into the narrative
of the JoJo Siwa and Cath Ebbs because JoJo herself said that
she has questioned a lot about herself during that time.
And when she says that, I'm assuming she means anything from
her gender identity to her sexuality and likely beyond.
And I think in light of Lesbian Visibility week, I was having a
little think about what I wanted to come on and talk about today
and I was struggling, struggling a little bit for topics.
I've had a pretty stressful week.
I've been down in Cornwall trying to finish off renovating
the property that I have here, which is stressful because going
against every grain of my lesbian being, I've realised
that no matter how hard I try, I'm just not very good at DIY.
And so even measuring a kitchen cabinet has become a highly
stressful task for me to carry out.
I bought a drill the other day with none of the drill bits.
Why can no one just add those in?
Like, why would you have to buy those separate?
Like surely if you're buying a drill, you're buying everything
to operate the drill, right? So that's been a little bit
stressful. And amongst all of that, I've
been trying to think about what I could come on and talk about
today that hasn't been discussed before or if it has been
discussed before, maybe not in the depth that has been needed.
And yeah, in light of Lesbian Visibility Week, and I was
thinking about this during Lesbian Visibility Week, you
know, the very fact that it's called Lesbian Visibility Week,
to me feels very much about it being for visibility of
lesbians, AKA visible lesbians. And of course, to celebrate our
existence and our visibility in US Living truthfully in our
queerness and celebrating ourselves and celebrating each
other and being loud about our existence is incredible and
something we should. I would have Lesbian Visibility
Week once a week for every month of the year because there's
still so much work to be done in this space.
But it did get me thinking about everyone that exists that don't
know if they're gay, question every day if they're gay.
It eats them up inside. They know they're gay, but
they're in the closet and they just live in that closet not
knowing how to come out. Or they've tried to come out and
it's been such a terrible experience.
They've gone back in the closet and I don't really think we
speak about that enough during Lesbian Visibility Week or
actually at all. And it's funny because looking
at the statistics of this podcast, anything to do with the
title lesbian, any of those buzzwords like lesbian gay that
we put in our in in episode titles generally always grow a
lot faster. And I can only imagine that's
because, and I can't only imagine, I can probably speak
for this as fact. That's because there's a lot of
you listening and there's a lot of people in the world that do
have that battle everyday before they come out or if they ever
come out where they question if they're a lesbian.
And in order to find the answers to those questions, we do that
very classic thing now where we put it into Google or we put it
into YouTube, or these days we put it into whatever platform we
listen to our podcasts on. And I know that because I used
to do it, AKA search the hashtag lesbian on Tumblr or when
Instagram first came out and everyone loved the hashtag on
Instagram. Although I know they're very
much making a comeback, I would hashtag search the word lesbian
to try and find other lesbians around the world who had the
hashtag lesbian in their photos to try and understand this
community and see if I related to it.
And that's why I have a spread of lesbians that I follow on
Instagram that quite literally span across the world that over
the years I have spoken to or formed online friendships with
these people that I feel like I really know.
Because back in the day, which makes me sound so old.
And I am still struggling with being 30, which I know
everyone's going to say is so young and I know it is so young,
but I still feel like I haven't achieved enough.
And I get in my head about it. But I definitely have a gaggle
of lesbians across the world that I have followed for the now
14 years that I have been out whom I found because I was
searching the hashtag lesbian on Instagram.
And so I really, yeah, wanted to talk today and break down the
question, how do I know if I'm a lesbian?
So if you are here with that question and whether you're 17
or 37, single, married, going through heartbreak, or even just
curious, firstly, I can promise you that you're definitely not
alone. And this episode is kind of
again, for anyone who thinks themselves, is this just a phase
or is this actually who I am? And I asked a few of my friends
about this topic and this question and asked them, if you
cast your mind back, what was those initial thoughts and kind
of how did they transpire into actions or, or things that
you've done both having conversations in your head and
just physically to, to try and figure it out.
So one of my friends said, which is a classic.
I've already mentioned this. I used to Google can straight
girls like their best friend more than their boyfriend?
And this person said they've done it multiple times a week.
And it's really funny because I don't think any queer person
ever has a unique experience because I done this.
I had boyfriends from, you know, obviously innocent relationship
but quote UN quote boyfriends from the age of 11 to 17 and
during that time was also completely infatuated, obsessed
and in love with my best friend and so would quite literally ask
myself the question or Google the question in multiple ways
multiple times a week. Can straight girls like their
best friends? Why does it feel different for
my best friend than it does my boyfriend, etcetera, etcetera.
If you're listening to this and you've Googled that, maybe you
should create yourself like a little checklist and we'll go
through this podcast episode and we can do like a rating at the
end of you're definitely gay, you're questioning and maybe you
just need some more exploring or you're straight.
And I can probably tell you that the last one doesn't exist for
anyone listening right now, because you probably wouldn't be
here listening to me gaggle on about this if you weren't trying
to find the answer. And hate to break it to you,
maybe that's the answer. Someone else said to me that I
realised I won't be a lesbian when my boyfriend proposed and
my action wasn't joy, it was pure panic.
And this one I haven't personally experienced
Touchwood, thank God, no man has ever proposed to me.
And I can safely say I don't think any man ever will propose
to me. But I can relate in the sense of
having boyfriends when I was younger, who at the time, I
really, you know, that kind of like puppy love vibe like I've
I've got a boyfriend and you want to do all the things that
you see your friends doing, like holding your boyfriend's hand,
first kiss, all of that stuff. But I know for me that when my
friends would talk about those experiences when we were younger
and having crushes and kissing their boyfriend for the first
time, or going to their boyfriend's house, or their
boyfriend coming over to their house or going to a date that
was probably a McDonald's, they would be buzzing about it.
And I would be sat there pretending to be buzzing about
it, thinking that was probably a huge waste of four hours of my
life because I just sat there the whole time thinking about
what to say to keep the conversation going because I was
so hugely awkward and probably not wanting to be there, but not
realising that. So just trying to fill a void
within myself. So again, if you are listening
to this and you are on dating apps or you're meeting guys in
whatever situation and after the initial chit chat dies down and
you feel yourself potentially scrambling to push conversation
and your mind's wandering elsewhere and there's just
something really deep at the pit of your stomach that doesn't
feel quite right. It's probably not because you've
got something wrong with you and it's probably not because the
poor guy's got chit chat, although that can also very much
be the case that the guy can just have chit chat.
It probably is something else that you feel and biology and
Physiology and your body does not lie.
And if you're sat in a situation with anyone actually, but we're
just going to tailor this to if you're thinking you're a lesbian
or not and it just doesn't feel quite right.
You feel like you're putting on a bit of a mask or you don't get
those butterflies that your friends talk about.
That's probably another good sign.
And then the third one was a friend of mine and I just wrote
this down saying honestly, I was 35, I was married to a man and I
was watching the Elwood for the first time.
I paused the episode, looked at the screen and was like, oh
shit, the penny dropped. I can't relate to this one in a
sense of being 35 because one of I always speak about this like
one of my greatest blessings or something that I'm so grateful
for to younger me was having the strength in a small town in
Somerset to own my truth and jump out of the closet.
When I realised like when the penny really dropped for me,
which was basically when I went on a date with my first
girlfriend and it felt so normal to me.
I just owned who I was intrinsically.
And I know that is so rare and I know that was also probably in a
very privileged space to do that.
And it doesn't mean I didn't struggle and had to have hard
conversations because I definitely did have to do both
of those things. But I know comparably to other
people who will be listening to this, they will be thinking
about those conversations and they will be very aware or even
acutely aware that the experience of coming out and
dealing with those thoughts or feelings will be a lot harder.
So I don't want to bypass other people whose background or
family dynamics or friendship dynamics or where they live and
make it seem like, well, you should just come out and then
everything will drop and everything will be fine because
that's for so many people, not going to be the case.
But I am super grateful that I was in a position to be able to
do that and own my sexuality and then go on to live in my
sexuality very solidly now for a very long time.
So I haven't had to go through the further progressions of
life, which is as you grow up, getting a job and hiding your
sexuality, continuing to have to hide it from your friends for
years and years, continuing to have to hide it from your family
for years and years. And then the worst part of it,
ultimately, then probably meeting someone and having to
fall into the cycle of life and society, which is you meet
someone, you date, you move in, you get a dog, you propose or
you propose, and then you get a dog.
And then you get married and then you have the kids and you
fall into all of that. And then there's that just that
silent niggle in the back of your mind or in the pit of your
stomach that something's not right.
And it's not until maybe watching the L Word or seeing
some other queer representation, which is why queer
representation is so, so important and feeling more
related to that than you have ever any of your own experiences
in life. And again, if you are listening
and those things have happened to you, it's good.
It's hard, but it's good because you're exploring yourself and
you're dealing with these emotions and these thoughts and
these feelings that are coming up.
But of course, it's also really hard.
But I know so many of you will be listening to those 3
scenarios that I've just read out.
And no doubt you'll be able to relate to 1 or maybe or three.
And you should take some solace in knowing that you're not
alone. And I want to take the moment as
well to highlight that no matter where you are or no matter who
you are, no matter what your past experiences are, there will
always be a community somewhere for you that will welcome you
with open arms, hold you, and be there to support you in whatever
stage you are in your life or in your queerness journey.
And that's fine. And you may come out to 1 friend
and then decide to stay in the closet for another two years.
That doesn't invalidate your gayness.
It doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you wrong for
feeling that or maybe feeling like you should be questioning
yourself because you're not committing fast enough or just
enough. Generally.
You're still very much part of this community, and you're still
very much part of Lesbian Visibility Week.
Like I said, for some people it really is like a lightning bolt
moment, and for others it is slow, Like realizing, I don't
know that a song that you've always loved is in a completely
different key to what you thought it may be.
And those things are all valid and there's no one way to know
going on from the struggle of recognizing things.
And I've kind of already touched on this a bit, but I truly
believe a lot of it comes down to compact.
And if you don't know the term compact, compact stands for
compulsory heterosexuality. It would help if I could
actually say that correctly. It's basically the idea that
we're all just raised to assume that we're straight and that
straightness is the default. And it's basically what we see
every day, in every story, every film, and just every expectation
of ourself. So if you are a girl and you're
not repulsed by the idea of men, you're told you're probably
straight. But that's not necessarily true.
And compet teaches us that admiring women doesn't equal
attraction, and wanting men to like you equals desire and
kissing the boys that you didn't want to kiss or never felt quite
right. Kissing is just a part of being
a teenager and working out who you like.
And obviously it is working out who you like.
But maybe who you like just isn't men.
And the truth is, I think so many of us performed
straightness and continue to form straightness because it
basically is the only script that we are given.
And This is why I bang on so much.
And I think the podcast bangs on so much about visibility in the
media, visibility in our daily lives, in queer spaces, in
community, because these things are so important as providing
foundations to the unravelling of anyone who has sat there
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That's Better Help. Help.com/LSEand yeah, I think so
many of us just performed it because it was the script we
were given. I was, I remember being given
that script is like being really young and it's actually kind of
gross because you look back and you're like, I was a child and
kind of, it's a weird thing that adults do, which is borderline
sexualisation, where people would comment on my appearance
and then be like, you'll marry a really handsome man one day or
you know, you're going to, I have all the boys running after
you. And I think when people say that
to you enough times, it does just create that pathway in your
brain and you don't really think about any existence outside of
that. And it's I, I didn't for so
long. I definitely didn't.
And even when I did, I didn't know what it was and I didn't
know what to call it. So it just went to the back of
my mind for most of my younger teenage life because an
alternative narrative just wasn't provided to me.
And it doesn't mean that I didn't know lesbians existed.
Of course, I knew lesbians existed, but not in a way where
I ever thought that that would be my life because no one had
ever told me otherwise that that could possibly be my life.
And if you have ever dated men and you've never really felt
anything real, and alongside that, you've always had an
intense admiration for women, but you've just brushed it off
as I just, you know, just love other women.
Like, it's just a admiration, like respect thing.
That can definitely be those things, but it could also be a
queerness screaming within you. I want to do a small like quiz
now about is this gay or and I'm just going to run through 4
scenarios to help with your checklist as well.
They're classic scenarios that I again think is pretty much a
universal lesbian experience, and if you can relate to them,
it may be a pretty good indication.
So the first one is you rewrote the end of every Disney Princess
movie so the Princess runs off with her best friend.
Two, you told everyone you were straight, but your Pinterest
board says otherwise. Three, you've said quite a few
times. I just really admire that girl's
energy while staring at a woman with tattoos and a nose ring for
10 minutes. And I know that these are so
classic and they're so binary. But again, from personal
experience, when I was first realising my queerness, I loved
the things about lesbians and that generally do display
lesbians more so AKA tattoos at the time, piercings, shorter
haircut, all of those things, the way that they dress way more
than what I do now. And that's not because I still
don't admire those things now, but because I'm safer in my
queerness. I don't feel like I need to
chase after those things and other women.
Whereas definitely when I was younger, the quote UN quote
gayer looking the girl almost the better at times.
And look, these aren't diagnostic tools, but they can
clues about working yourself out and working out where you may
lie on the spectrum. And I know again, I've spoken a
lot just about the term lesbian here.
And of course it can range from lesbian to bisexual and anything
in between. Queer, it is a spectrum like
anything. So I don't want you to think,
well, I do still genuinely have these feelings for men and
you're using the term lesbian and making it one or the other.
Obviously, I'm speaking on this podcast from my personal
experience. So I can only give rationale and
kind of guidance on my experience and how I felt and
how those feelings and thoughts came up for me.
It will look different for not just any lesbian, but anyone who
sits on any end of the spectrum. So I'm not trying to push every
push anyone out here or make out that if you haven't ticked all
these boxes, but you're still truly questioning that you
couldn't be queer or gay. It's just usually they do tipple
to kind of one side or the other.
And then I think going on from that as well is almost again,
pushing from society. But I've got a real problem with
society at the moment, don't I? But I actually do have a problem
with society at the moment. Society at the moment is shit.
I spoke about this on a subscribe Series A couple of
weeks ago. That we have basically gone back
in time in society, which is no shock to anyone I would imagine.
But both like politically, culturally, it seems like just a
horrible place to be, which is getting worse.
And I think the impact that that's having on marginalised
groups is astronomical. Trans women not being recognised
as women in the UK. Trump's policies disgrace
Australia. Some of the things that have
been coming out of their election?
Absolute disgrace. I don't pretend to be a
political mastermind, but I don't think it takes a genius to
say that it's a pretty scary time to be.
And within that I think the myths that then can come up and
make us all question ourselves and doubt ourselves.
Whilst it feels like the the wrong side of the world is
getting stronger and stronger and they're kind of building an
army trying to strip us of our existence across the whole
spectrum of queerness is pretty shocking.
And I think it does have an impact, particularly if you are
someone who's not 100% grounded in who you are and your
sexuality will make you again hideaway and question yourself.
And so I kind of wanted to go over some myth busts, which are
things that I think are said in the media, can be said
innocently by friends and family, or maybe not so
innocently but come across as innocently, which make you
question yourself. And I just want to go through
them and then break them down 1 by 1 and give my 2 pennies worth
as to why I think they're bullshit.
So myth 1 is I've dated men so I can't be a lesbian.
Or when you tell other people that you're questioning your
sexuality, they tell you that you've dated men.
So that can't be right. Obviously that's really fucking
stupid because I used to hate cheese, which I know is not
probably the best comparison, but I did.
I hated cheese for a large proportion of my life.
Everyone around me love cheese and I never liked cheese.
I just didn't like the taste. I couldn't understand it and now
I fucking love cheese. So just because one thing
existed for us at one point in our life and we are very
grounded and solidified in that experience that we were having
at the time and where we were in that time of our lives, doesn't
mean that that will transpire through all of our lives.
Because we all grow and change and change our minds everyday
about who we are and what we want and who we want around us.
And I think we're almost punished in society or question
for that and told that there's something wrong with us if we
start questioning the the narrative that we've lived for
so long or just questioning society's expectations.
And again, it puts us into a really vulnerable space of
questioning ourselves. But of course, just because
you've dated men doesn't mean you're not queer.
And it might mean, as I said, you're on the spectrum of
queerness where you're bi so you date both men and women.
Or you're queer and you emotionally are way more
attracted to women in a relationship sense but are still
sexually attracted to men vice versa.
Or you could have been in a relationship with a man for the
last 10 years, had two kids, and still absolutely be as much of a
big fat lesbian as what I am. The second myth is I've never
been with a woman, so how can I know?
Or I've never been with a woman so I can't be gay again, stupid.
I'm just going to call it how it is.
That's a really stupid way of thinking because straight people
aren't told that they need to straight like they need to sleep
with both genders to prove their straight, like their
straightness or their heterosexuality.
They just often sleep with the opposite gender and that's that.
Like, there's no question there because that's quote and quote
the way it's supposed to be. And that's obviously not right.
Your feelings and your patterns matter.
And just because you've slept with one or haven't slept with
the other doesn't mean you're invalidated on either side.
So let's not gaslight ourselves into this either.
You could again, be a huge lesbian and have never slept
with a woman and know that you would be absolutely hopeless at
doing so the first time few times you've done it, although
you probably wouldn't be. And again, it doesn't mean that
you're not gay or that you questioning yourself is not 100%
valid. And then the third one, which I
think keeps people in a space of not speaking up or not
acknowledging themselves and their thoughts and feelings is
what if I changed my mind? And it kind of relates back to
just what I said there about Myth 2.
Changing your mind is absolutely fine.
Sexuality can evolve. Lord knows I hope mine doesn't.
And I've said this multiple times and it may be quote UN
quote heterophobic of me. If I woke up tomorrow on top of
everything else that we all deal with in daily life and
questioned that I might start be liking starting to like men
again, that would probably send me into the biggest fucking
crash out a person could ever experience.
I have no shame in saying that, but obviously my struggle of
that is very different to the generalized societal struggle of
it being on the other end. But of course, sexuality can
evolve. You're allowed to change, you're
allowed to learn, and you're allowed to explore your thoughts
and your feelings without guilt or without having to put
yourself in a box or put yourself in a room with a
massive barricaded door to lock that door up and then Chuck the
key through the letterbox and have to stay there forever.
You may be in a relationship right now with a man that's
unhappy for multiple reasons, your sexuality being one of
them. You may leave that man, go and
date a woman for two years and then you and her break up for
whatever reason, which I will warn you, where lesbians are
concerned, there is quite literally no reason that we
couldn't be able to bring to life.
And then six months after that, meet someone at a bar who
happens to be a man and think to yourself, fuck, actually, I
wasn't a lesbian, I was just bi or I'm queer.
And it wasn't just me being gay, it was the relationship not
being right. And you can completely fall for
that guy and that's absolutely fine.
As I've said, touch wood. You can hear me touching wood
here. That never happens to me.
But if it does, I'd like to think that having practised what
I preach, I'd be able to deal with it with some ounce of
grace. It would be more for me giving
up an identity which I fought so hard to be so comfortable in.
I would struggle with the unpicking of that.
But of course I'm also, I would hope they're opposed enough to
know that it's absolutely fine and we all do grow and change
and I would hope my friends still accept me.
My now would probably fucking love it, but let's not go there.
But yeah, here's the thing with like queerness.
It's not about ticking boxes. It is quite literally about
listening to yourself. Not your fears, not what your
mum wants, not what your friends want or they're doing in their
life with their potential happy marriages or unhappy marriages
that they pretend they're happy and they're four kids or they're
10 dogs. It's about you and how you feel
and not what anyone else or the world expects of you.
I feel like I've rambled a bit as always, but I hope this has
been useful to anyone who is living with this everyday.
I lived with it from I think when I reached more
consciousness about relationships and sexuality and,
and sex and, and all of those things, which probably like at
the age of 13, let's be honest, it, it happens a lot younger.
And I struggled with that for four years and it was a really
long four years. And even though that feels like
a really long time ago, I remember it eating me up every
single day. It would be on my mind, taking
up a huge proportion of my thinking, my feelings and my
doings and the way that I navigated myself in the daily.
And it wasn't a very nice place to be.
And so if you're young and you're listening to this and you
feel like that, I'm sorry and you will be OK.
But I do think there's a bigger element to this as well, which
is the element of those that are in their mid 30s, late 30s,
forties, fifties, 60s, whatever that is.
And you've had to live with that niggle a lot longer.
You are seen and you will be heard and you're not outside of
this community just because you're not jumping up inside
this community. I wanted to Createspace today
and kind of talk through some of those things that I think a lot
of you listening. What are the conversations that
you will just be having with yourself on the daily?
And I know that it can be super exhausting and sad and a really
scary place to be. And this episode isn't about
telling anyone or coaxing anyone to make decisions or to come
out. It is just actually about that
recognition and allowing yourself to go on that journey.
And if you go on that journey and decide to do nothing with
going on that journey, then that's OK.
It is may be a sad thing, I hope no one would listening to this
would go through their whole lives not being able to accept
who they are and live true to who they are.
But it's not here to coax anyone out of the closet or make
anyone's experience of staying in the closet invalid.
I just wanted to create a space where we can talk about it and I
would love to obviously hear more.
So to wrap up today's episode, how do you know if you are a
lesbian? And truly, I think we've got a
cross that there is no one answer.
There's lots of categories and tick boxes if we're going to
have a joke about it that you can go through.
But one thing I will leave this episode on is that if you are
asking the question, and if you're wondering if you're
turning it over in your mind, hoping that there's a space for
that truth, then yeah, you may be.
And you're not weird and you're not broken and you're not faking
it. You are basically just trying to
find your way home to yourself that probably you haven't LED
yourself astray from, that the world has kind of LED yourself
astray from. And I think that's something
worth honouring and worth giving yourself grace for.
And if you think you can, maybe one day giving yourself the
strength to act on. So thank you for listening today
to the Lesbian Supper Club podcast.
And if this has resonated with you, please also send it to
someone else that you think may need it.
Please leave a review, share this on your stories, come talk
to us about it in the DMS. You don't have to be a certain
way to be valid. And until next time, lesbians
and questioning lesbians, questioning buys questioning
queer people. Stay soft, stay curious, and
stay potentially queer. Love you all, goodbye.