1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,280 Hi, everybody and welcome back to the Better Business Analysis 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:05,520 podcast with your host Benjamin Walsh. 3 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:09,200 And today we are going to be talking about a topic that's 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,720 unfortunately is a little bit uncomfortable for myself and 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:18,280 maybe for some of you who strongly wear the BA T-shirt or 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,520 wave the BA flag. And that is from requirements to 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,960 product ownership. Why more BAS are making the 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,960 switch. There is a major shift happening 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:34,000 in our industry and it is resulting in a lot of more 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,160 business analysts transitioning to the product owner role. 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,880 So if you're ABA wondering what your next career move might be 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,920 because of the market or you're just curious why this shift is 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,680 happening, this episode is for you. 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,280 The Better Business Analysis Institute presence, the Better 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:01:03,680 Business Analysis podcast with Walsh Not too long ago, the 16 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,400 Business analyst was the go to person for bridging the gap 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,600 between IT and business. We talk about the software, we 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,440 wrote business requirements documents, we ran stakeholder 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,320 workshops, and we made sure developers had clear 20 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:19,840 specifications to build from and testers could know what to test. 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,160 But into agile and Agile changed everything. 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,200 And even though agile is kind of died in some ways or been 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:34,720 absorbed, we are now left with this tricky conversation about 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,000 product owner role. So, you know, this is more than 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,520 just a shift from the traditional waterfall project. 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,320 I don't believe B as were there. So we had, you know, the bank 27 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:48,520 wants to launch a mobile app and the old model BA would spend 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,880 months gathering requirements, writing the documentation, 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,240 handing it off to developers. Six months Fast forward and by 30 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,640 the time the app is ready, the customer might change their 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,080 requirements. And then an agile. 32 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,040 There was no six month wait. The product owner consistently 33 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,759 worked with developers, adjusting priorities, showing 34 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,560 ensuring that each Sprint was delivering real value. 35 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:18,280 Instead of an intermediary, the PO or the product owner is in 36 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,880 the trenches making product decisions on the flight. 37 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:27,080 Now the reality is most BAS are doing the product role on the 38 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,880 role as well as the upfront requirements, right are doing 39 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,720 both of those things. That's what I see on a daily 40 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,880 basis. But the bigger the company or 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,120 the bigger the country, the more specialization that's happening. 42 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,800 There is a shift which means that the business aren't really 43 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,360 interested in the VA value of BA or upfront requirements and the 44 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,520 more about people making product decisions, OK. 45 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,840 And this is an important discussion here and it isn't the 46 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,520 fact that they don't value the skills that ABA brings. 47 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,000 But there is a bit of a shift between BAS being asked to step 48 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,280 into the product delivery focus. And that is kind of where we're 49 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,200 finding more BAS on the scale is tipping towards that. 50 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:22,480 And this is what I would say traditional product BAS, so #1 I 51 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,360 guess is that there is a skills match, right? 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,320 So BAS make great POS. We I know this BAS coming from 53 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,840 ABA background, they make much better product owners than those 54 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,760 who are SMEs or just coming from the business. 55 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,360 So some people think of moving from APBA to APO is a massive 56 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,400 leap. Not at all B as already have 80% 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,200 of those skills succeed as a product owner and I would say 58 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,400 that they are the BA role is a greater role than APO and there 59 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,000 is a Venn diagram. So you don't get all the skills 60 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,080 if you just are ABA. But let's break it down. 61 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,120 ABA and a product owner role needs both understanding 62 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,520 requirements. They need to understand 63 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,760 stakeholder needs. They need to manage a backlog. 64 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,600 They need to understand what the business wants and what business 65 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,880 value is. They need to translate the 66 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,959 business need into technical work like user stories, refining 67 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:18,360 those stories, prioritizing them. 68 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,760 No one just does solution requirements anymore. 69 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,680 They need to manage competing requirements and priorities, 70 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,480 business goals, technical feasibility, logic and user 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,720 need. And OS need to do the same thing 72 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,760 but with more authority over the backlog. 73 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,400 And this is where the O role is shifting or making it clearer 74 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,640 that BAS need to have authority. So it's it's it's it's chilling 75 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,520 out roles and responsibilities a bit more clearer for what BAS 76 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,560 didn't have historically. And now the PO though, is going 77 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,480 to Chig thanks to Agile and Agile Manifesto. 78 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,040 It's chiseled out roles and responsibilities. 79 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,200 And obviously you need to communicate with DAS, developers 80 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,600 and architects and BAS must explain requirements and POS 81 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,240 must be able to do that as well. And there's some really bad POS 82 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,040 who just don't get down to user stories or then outsource to a 83 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,520 junior BA to do these user stories and acceptance criteria. 84 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,880 And when I say PO here, I mean a capital P, capital O, where 85 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,200 being a product owner who does all those things well and isn't 86 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,560 outsourcing anything. So the key difference is that 87 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,920 ABA delivers insights and that's the word I live in. 88 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,080 And APO delivers decisions about a product. 89 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:39,800 So you will be walking away from business insights to product 90 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,400 insights. And that just sadly is just 91 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,000 where BAS are going. And I say sadly, but actually 92 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,600 it's just an evolution. So let's take our an example of 93 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,080 a real world transition here. Let's take Emma. 94 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,680 She's a former BA at an ecommerce company. 95 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,440 This is a great example. It's around the company in 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,040 context. She gets frustrated because 97 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,200 their requirements are often ignored by developers. 98 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,040 So when the company decided to adapt, adopt Agile, she 99 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,960 volunteered to take on back load backlog management, excuse me. 100 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,640 And within six months, she transitioned to a product Owner 101 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,000 role. And now she is the one deciding 102 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,160 what gets built next. So that's quite a, you know, the 103 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,560 decision maker here. For many BAS, becoming APO is 104 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,200 less about learning a new job and more about stepping up as a 105 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,600 decision maker as opposed to ABA, who's not a decision maker. 106 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:39,760 OK, I hope you understand the difference there. 107 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:46,080 And the other thing I'm finding in the market, I'm sure other 108 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,920 people have views here is that it gives you that more 109 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,480 influence. There's actually probably now on 110 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,320 average for those who are not kind of strategic BAS more pay 111 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,960 and maybe more opportunity. So that's the elephant in the 112 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:07,520 room and it might be the money. So moving from BA, and this 113 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,520 isn't always the case of 0 massive financial company pays 114 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,760 their BAS much more than their POS, but that's because their 115 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,680 BAS are doing strategy works and not product BAS and their POS 116 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,640 are doing product work. So there might be just a 117 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,760 financial growth for you. So a mid level BA might earn 118 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,560 between 80,000 and 110,000. This Is Us really. 119 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,160 And a product owner might be more in the upper quarter from 120 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,800 100 to 130, OK. And then of course, there is a 121 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:45,760 transition from senior product owner to product manager and 122 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,040 that's a fun 150 mark, right? And heavy tech industries. 123 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,840 So that is making it clear about where we go. 124 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,240 And that brings me to the career trajectory. 125 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,360 A lot of BAS, you know, you finish at senior or you become 126 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,440 maybe a business architect, but a product owner has a very clear 127 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,040 transition. So head of product, Chief 128 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,040 product Officer, you know what I mean, product manager and if 129 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:13,840 it's an A tech company, maybe even CEO. 130 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,600 So that's more than a traditional BA role can give 131 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,760 you. So companies want leaders who 132 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:25,120 think strategically, right? And if you're a tangible 133 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,400 strategy is what I like to say. So sometimes even though BAS are 134 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,720 more strategic in terms of a business sense, if you're 135 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,360 tangibly strategic and linked to a product, then APO may have a 136 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,919 serious advantage by showing the value through the product 137 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:46,000 they're delivering, right? And I guess we need to talk 138 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,360 about that transition. So if you're ABA and you want to 139 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,120 make the jump to PO, and I don't see it as a jump up, it's a jump 140 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,240 sideways, here's what you need to do. 141 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,360 You need to start thinking about customer value, product 142 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,680 management influences and business impact for the product. 143 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,280 And so it is more wrapping around the product and outcome, 144 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,960 not the project. You need to think about the 145 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:14,960 features in terms of why a good PO will and you need to move 146 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,560 away from any form of kind of the upfront documentation still 147 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:21,520 needs to be done. You can't just leave a gap. 148 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,680 But you might say, I'm going to become the product owner and I'm 149 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,640 more than happy having an enterprise BA going across and 150 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,560 giving me some insights across the top. 151 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,880 So that will allow you to transition. 152 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,760 It's more around understanding technology as well. 153 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,920 You need to get hands on with the backlog management. 154 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,480 So you need to live and breathe JIRA, DevOps, Trello. 155 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,240 And if you're not really using these tools, you need to start 156 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,040 using them. You need to volunteer to manage 157 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,920 the backlog through a project. And you need to explain you 158 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,880 can't necessarily do your OVI job forever because you're APO. 159 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,000 Now, if your company is launching a new feature or very 160 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,680 product related, then that provides a huge opportunity for 161 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:09,400 you to to move into APO role. And you need to really 162 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,840 understand product knowledge. So NVPAB testing, product 163 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,280 analytics, all the product management stuff, Google 164 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,720 Analytics, you know what I mean? And that will make you 10 times 165 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:26,120 more valuable as APO. You can become a certified Scrum 166 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,080 product owner. I am one of those and that's 167 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,160 probably the best transitional certificate you can get. 168 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,880 So my closing thoughts on this topic is there is a shift in the 169 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,160 market from BAS to product ownership and not as a crew, as 170 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,320 a sideways career and mind shift away. 171 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,400 And it's really saying you have the foundations to this role and 172 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,360 you're moving towards the product world. 173 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,840 And those who are left in the BA world may, may be evolved into 174 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,800 strange strategic business analysts. 175 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:04,040 If you were to move all product BAS out of kind of the realm of 176 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,320 business analysis. And this is where me or and the 177 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,880 institution is, is different to the IBA who of course, push for 178 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,040 this all being under the BA umbrella. 179 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:18,800 If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, share 180 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,600 it with your fellow BAS and keep pressing the boundaries and 181 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:26,720 pushing hard of what's possible. I'll see you next week.