1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,200 The Better Business Analysis Institute. 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,120 Presents the Better Business Analysis podcast with. 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,760 Kingsman Walsh Hi everybody and welcome to the show. 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,480 Today I have a very special guest and that guest is Ashwin 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,760 Shikar, also known as Ash to his friends. 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,520 Ash loves his craft beer and he's a great BA. 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,120 Ash also has an amazing back story. 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,450 He was originally born in India. He completed his studies there 9 00:00:31,650 --> 00:00:35,930 and actually has a Bachelor of Communication and Media Studies 10 00:00:35,930 --> 00:00:40,090 from Chennai University. He then traveled to Dubai where 11 00:00:40,090 --> 00:00:44,130 he worked in media and advertising and other related 12 00:00:44,130 --> 00:00:46,890 industries. Before making a determination 13 00:00:46,890 --> 00:00:49,490 that he wanted to be a business analyst. 14 00:00:50,610 --> 00:00:54,450 He looked around the world and he applied for the Bachelor of 15 00:00:54,450 --> 00:00:58,450 Professional Business Analysis at Victoria University here in 16 00:00:58,450 --> 00:01:01,480 New Zealand. He was accepted, he completed 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,320 his degree and later he finished his master's in business 18 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:10,000 analysis. Ash currently works for Surety 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,440 Consulting as a Business Analyst consultant, and his latest gig 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,040 or his project that he's on at the moment is where he is 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,440 required to be both a business analyst and a data analyst. 22 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,360 So we're going to get into that today and it's lovely to have 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,960 you here, Ash. Welcome to the show. 24 00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:29,130 Thanks, Ben. Thank you for the opportunity. 25 00:01:29,450 --> 00:01:33,090 Yeah, feels good. So, Ash, you've got an 26 00:01:33,090 --> 00:01:36,530 interesting career, obviously born in India and you've made 27 00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:39,890 your way to New Zealand. Maybe you could tell us a bit 28 00:01:39,890 --> 00:01:43,730 about your background? Yeah, sure. 29 00:01:44,090 --> 00:01:49,690 Where do I start? I mean, I think I've been in 30 00:01:49,690 --> 00:01:52,610 quite a few industries as you mentioned. 31 00:01:52,730 --> 00:01:54,970 It took me some time before I got to. 32 00:01:55,700 --> 00:02:00,180 Where I am and what I'm doing right now, I started off as you 33 00:02:00,180 --> 00:02:04,380 mentioned, doing a Bachelors in Visual Communication. 34 00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:11,260 So that's more of into the IT was, yeah, it was an interesting 35 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:15,660 degree As such. It touched on the surface of a 36 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:21,860 lot of topics, more around media itself, but the things which 37 00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:25,020 really. Appealed to me from that was 38 00:02:25,140 --> 00:02:28,340 graphic designing and content writing. 39 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:33,300 That's where I quickly found out where my passion lies. 40 00:02:33,980 --> 00:02:38,740 And also that is where I found that I was pretty keen on the 41 00:02:38,740 --> 00:02:41,180 aspect of paying attention to detail as well. 42 00:02:41,620 --> 00:02:44,860 Not only from a design perspective but also from a 43 00:02:44,860 --> 00:02:50,820 content perspective as well. So finished up the degree, I 44 00:02:50,980 --> 00:02:54,240 moved to Dubai. I got my first role as 45 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,640 advertisement controller for a publication called Gulf News, 46 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,800 and I spent about five years in that company. 47 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:13,840 It was more around building ads, proofreading ads, making sure 48 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,880 that they are compliant with different industry standards and 49 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,440 government standards. But for some reason all my peers 50 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:28,200 and all my managers saw that spark in me in terms of client 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,040 relationships and client engagement. 52 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,000 So that's where I thought, OK, it's probably a good turn to 53 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,600 move to a role which was more customer facing. 54 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:45,200 So that's when I got into client servicing as a role and I had, I 55 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,640 had a really good opportunity to work for a company called EMAR. 56 00:03:49,990 --> 00:03:55,070 They are the property constructors, so they 57 00:03:57,070 --> 00:04:00,310 essentially own the Dubai Mall and the Burj. 58 00:04:00,310 --> 00:04:03,830 Khalifa, yeah. So I was basically working as a 59 00:04:03,830 --> 00:04:11,350 client servicing executive for some time for a particular 60 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:15,870 entertainment attraction of this. 61 00:04:16,420 --> 00:04:21,339 It was a company called Kidzania where they kind of it was a 62 00:04:21,339 --> 00:04:26,860 role-playing activity which we provided for kids, where they 63 00:04:26,940 --> 00:04:32,660 kind of learn what it is to go out into the real world. 64 00:04:32,860 --> 00:04:37,340 And we tried to mimic kind of activities that they would 65 00:04:37,340 --> 00:04:40,700 really need to do in the future and instill those values in them 66 00:04:40,700 --> 00:04:45,820 as well, giving them knowledge about what does it mean to have. 67 00:04:46,540 --> 00:04:51,660 Kind of a career or a job or a skill set and the importance of 68 00:04:51,660 --> 00:04:54,820 education as well and how you can actually achieve those 69 00:04:54,820 --> 00:04:58,020 things. So from client servicing, I 70 00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:02,820 moved into the sponsorship space wherein I was in charge of 71 00:05:02,820 --> 00:05:07,140 bringing in clients who could provide that facility to the 72 00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:09,860 kids. So that was an interesting space 73 00:05:09,860 --> 00:05:15,140 as well and combining that experience with publication. 74 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,040 Experience. I kind of moved into an account 75 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:24,920 management role where I started looking at selling ads for a 76 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,040 magazine that was print and digital. 77 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:33,000 So it kind of gave me a good understanding in terms of how to 78 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,320 manage people. A lot of things, a lot of 79 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,400 things. Did you from that, Yeah. 80 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,640 So you were kind of on this journey, if you like. 81 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,600 Working out what you what you wanted to achieve which is very 82 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,720 very common for a lot of Bas. They don't a lot of them don't 83 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,320 necessarily start in the business analysis space. 84 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,560 Even myself who may have had a bit more of a structured career 85 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,000 from working out it you know I went to did sound engineering or 86 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,640 you know I traveled the world OK. 87 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,080 So you're finding yourself in Dubai. 88 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,280 You've done quite a lot of, quite a lot of stuff. 89 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:10,760 I. Did a lot of stuff. 90 00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:13,780 And then I thought, okay, yes, go ahead it was. 91 00:06:14,060 --> 00:06:15,900 Time. And then I decided, yes, it's 92 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:18,580 time to actually take a completely change. 93 00:06:18,580 --> 00:06:24,060 I wanted to move places as well and it so happened that 94 00:06:24,140 --> 00:06:28,740 Wellington in New Zealand came up as an option and that's when 95 00:06:28,740 --> 00:06:35,060 I heard about. Career in business analysis is 96 00:06:35,060 --> 00:06:38,340 an opportunity and that kind of was a perfect fit for me because 97 00:06:38,340 --> 00:06:43,260 it encapsulated all the skill sets that I had learnt or where 98 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:46,020 I had experience in. And that's when I decided to 99 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:49,980 move to New Zealand. A friend of mine, his wife, had 100 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:56,740 completed the course from Victoria University some time 101 00:06:56,740 --> 00:07:00,920 before. And she recommended the place 102 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,520 and I moved here, completed the Masters and the rest was 103 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,200 history, I would guess. But New Zealand has been really 104 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,040 kind to me. A lot of opportunities. 105 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,720 It was hard, it was difficult finding your feet within the 106 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:21,240 industry because Master A Masters does give you that foot 107 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,400 in the door. But it is a bit difficult. 108 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,960 It definitely is. Difficult to get into it. 109 00:07:26,790 --> 00:07:29,830 So yeah, let me, let me let me ask you that question. 110 00:07:29,830 --> 00:07:32,030 So you've got yourself to New Zealand. 111 00:07:32,030 --> 00:07:35,710 You've had you've had a lot of experience actually quite in a 112 00:07:35,710 --> 00:07:38,270 corporate environment quite you know high level roles would be 113 00:07:38,270 --> 00:07:40,790 like or at least middle management roles quite a lot of 114 00:07:40,790 --> 00:07:43,070 exposure. So confidence when dealing with 115 00:07:43,070 --> 00:07:47,150 clients and after a lot of people who are who aren't, who 116 00:07:47,150 --> 00:07:49,630 weren't born in New Zealand or even want to, you know I guess 117 00:07:49,630 --> 00:07:54,480 more of the Western countries if you like, who will, will, will 118 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,160 listen to this podcast and have interest about how you firstly 119 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,880 were able to even get into New Zealand or or Australia. 120 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,160 Not that we're special, but that there is you know a visa process 121 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:06,720 there. So I think a lot of people will 122 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,680 be encouraged to hear what they've heard. 123 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,880 And I guess your your, your story wasn't just you know work 124 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,200 in a contact center you know staying there you went to do 125 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,160 what you've done a few things which would have helped. 126 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,080 So tell me, I guess I've got two questions there. 127 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,980 One is, why do you think that you were easily accepted into 128 00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:29,780 New Zealand in the 1st place? And then secondly, with the 129 00:08:29,780 --> 00:08:33,140 Masters program, how did you get into that? 130 00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:36,980 And then we'll talk about how that might have helped you next 131 00:08:36,980 --> 00:08:40,980 to. Address the first question. 132 00:08:41,419 --> 00:08:43,860 It wasn't an easy journey getting to New Zealand. 133 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,140 To be honest. I had to do a lot of research as 134 00:08:47,140 --> 00:08:50,140 well. It was trying to gauge which is 135 00:08:50,140 --> 00:08:56,660 the best location. 1st, to move to because I wanted to move to a 136 00:08:56,660 --> 00:09:00,060 place where and I could call it my home in the future. 137 00:09:00,340 --> 00:09:06,500 That was a long term goal for me, and not only that, the only 138 00:09:06,740 --> 00:09:11,780 institute where I would say that specializes in business 139 00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:14,700 analysis. Was only offered through 140 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:18,180 Victoria University, so that became an easy choice for me in 141 00:09:18,180 --> 00:09:21,460 terms of narrowing down the country and the region that I 142 00:09:21,460 --> 00:09:29,740 wanted to stay in and considering the experience that 143 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:33,020 I had, which came from a design background and from a 144 00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:37,220 communication background and client management as well, that 145 00:09:37,260 --> 00:09:39,870 helped it. Helped me really easily 146 00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:43,350 transition into the role of a business analysis, business 147 00:09:43,350 --> 00:09:47,350 analyst I would say. So that was that was the main 148 00:09:47,430 --> 00:09:50,870 driver and what facilitated me as well. 149 00:09:52,070 --> 00:09:55,390 So just to clarify, you came in on a student visa? 150 00:09:56,190 --> 00:09:57,550 Yes, yes. OK, cool. 151 00:09:57,910 --> 00:10:01,550 So. I came in on a student visa 152 00:10:01,630 --> 00:10:04,870 which offered me also a three-year work. 153 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,720 Visa post completion. So that was one of the perks of 154 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,480 also choosing New Zealand as a country because any other part 155 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,760 of the world like Australia or Canada, they don't have that 156 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,560 three-year facility for a work visa. 157 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,760 And and also when I mentioned in terms of specialization in 158 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,960 business analysis, I don't think that any any other university 159 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,040 provides that it is, it's probably a supplementary. 160 00:10:31,530 --> 00:10:34,810 Course or kind of a major as part of our information 161 00:10:34,810 --> 00:10:38,090 technology degree or something? Like that, so that was. 162 00:10:38,090 --> 00:10:40,410 One of the biggest, yeah, that's interesting. 163 00:10:40,410 --> 00:10:43,890 I mean, obviously I went to university a long time before 164 00:10:43,890 --> 00:10:44,970 you. I'm a little bit older than you, 165 00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:49,050 Ash, but I just slightly. But when I went to Waikato, you 166 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:51,450 know, which is known as a computer science hub in New 167 00:10:51,450 --> 00:10:54,690 Zealand and internationally, very much focused more on the 168 00:10:54,690 --> 00:10:57,770 programming side. There was not a specialization 169 00:10:57,930 --> 00:11:00,610 in terms of business analysis at all. 170 00:11:01,710 --> 00:11:05,510 In some ways the management of school had more of a focus on 171 00:11:05,510 --> 00:11:08,510 business, you know analyzing business if you like. 172 00:11:09,070 --> 00:11:10,990 So that was interesting. So yeah, there's. 173 00:11:12,190 --> 00:11:15,350 So I think we've asked the time 1:00 you got through, you chose 174 00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:16,390 New Zealand for the right reasons. 175 00:11:16,390 --> 00:11:20,390 You've also got your work. You've now got your into your 176 00:11:20,390 --> 00:11:25,150 place in terms of, in terms of the University of Wellington and 177 00:11:25,150 --> 00:11:28,690 back. And then you've also got the 178 00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:31,090 idea that you know that when if you finished a degree, you've 179 00:11:31,090 --> 00:11:33,650 got three years of work, which was what was one of the 180 00:11:33,650 --> 00:11:35,890 attracting factor, which is great because then you can prove 181 00:11:35,890 --> 00:11:39,210 yourself right And then and then you know that you can apply for 182 00:11:39,210 --> 00:11:41,930 a permanent residency after that, which would have been 183 00:11:41,930 --> 00:11:46,050 attractive. And you've now, yeah, you've 184 00:11:46,050 --> 00:11:48,850 actually found that there's not many even in the world. 185 00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:51,610 There's not many places where you can specialize. 186 00:11:52,130 --> 00:11:56,080 In business analysis. So that's quite surprising, 187 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,200 right? And that's quite amazing for 188 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,240 our, for me and our field that that doesn't exist. 189 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:05,120 OK, cool. So you've you land, you're going 190 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,720 straight into your master's degree. 191 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,640 And did you Were you originally a bachelor's moving to master's, 192 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,080 or did you sign up for the master's program straight away? 193 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,960 No, I finished my bachelor's, which was a three-year course, 194 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,200 and then it was actually a gap of 10 years before I decided I 195 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:22,970 should study. Further. 196 00:12:23,130 --> 00:12:28,410 So I finished up my bachelor's back in 2008, and I did my 197 00:12:28,410 --> 00:12:32,010 master's in 2019, so it was exactly 10 years later. 198 00:12:32,890 --> 00:12:34,810 So. It was a big step for me, but I 199 00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:36,410 thought that was something necessary. 200 00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:39,890 Yeah, cool. And did you, how do you, in 201 00:12:39,890 --> 00:12:44,050 terms of your master's or your degree, that was, you know, from 202 00:12:44,050 --> 00:12:46,570 a university, which is, like we said, is quite unusual. 203 00:12:47,130 --> 00:12:51,450 How do you think that helped you in your career or even getting, 204 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,320 you know, your first BA job here in New Zealand? 205 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,040 I think there are pros and cons to that. 206 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,200 The best thing which came out of the Masters, I would say is 207 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:12,880 giving you that strong foundation in the skill and that 208 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,720 is the beauty of Victoria University as well and how they 209 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,360 actually designed the curriculum. 210 00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:25,290 It touches on every single aspect what a business analyst 211 00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:28,170 needs to know from a technical perspective and from a business 212 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:32,290 perspective as well. Though see either way, it all 213 00:13:32,290 --> 00:13:36,450 depends upon you in terms of finding that space or that area 214 00:13:36,450 --> 00:13:40,610 which you would really like to specialize in and then gaining 215 00:13:40,610 --> 00:13:42,610 that experience. That's something which a Masters 216 00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:44,850 doesn't give you. It gives you all the tools. 217 00:13:45,130 --> 00:13:48,410 It gives you all the skill sets that you need to get your feet 218 00:13:48,410 --> 00:13:51,190 running. Yes, just like any other course. 219 00:13:51,670 --> 00:13:54,950 And the beauty about Victoria is, well, it gives you that 220 00:13:54,950 --> 00:13:57,750 opportunity to work hands on. With. 221 00:13:59,070 --> 00:14:02,750 Some of the industry players as well and I had got that fabulous 222 00:14:03,150 --> 00:14:07,390 chance to actually work with certain organizations in New 223 00:14:07,390 --> 00:14:08,990 Zealand as part of the course itself. 224 00:14:09,470 --> 00:14:16,470 So I did my internship with New Zealand Stock Exchange which was 225 00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:18,990 a really good learning experience and. 226 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,160 There were other organizations also which we touched upon like 227 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,680 TEC. There was one which I really 228 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,120 liked to Transparent Dog, the beer company. 229 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,560 So it was interesting, but that's the beauty of the course 230 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,040 as well. The management go out of the way 231 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,520 in terms of finding you something which can actually 232 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,610 give you that hands on training. And that is something which is 233 00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:47,370 really good with Victoria University, Yeah. 234 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:49,930 No, Yeah. So I would have to say that 235 00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:53,890 that's fantastic to hear. And I think as we've, as we talk 236 00:14:53,890 --> 00:14:57,890 about often, you know it's the devil is in the detail once 237 00:14:57,890 --> 00:15:00,010 you're working, you start to apply these skills. 238 00:15:00,010 --> 00:15:03,570 So it's really hard to apply some of the things. 239 00:15:03,890 --> 00:15:07,730 To the health. And that's the other side of 240 00:15:08,330 --> 00:15:12,290 doing a masters as well, because once your foundation is strong. 241 00:15:13,060 --> 00:15:16,900 See, what I've realized is as a business analyst, once you have 242 00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:18,980 a masters, it gives you that foot on the door. 243 00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:22,180 It gives you a strong foundation, but it doesn't count 244 00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:24,860 for the experience as well. The experience is something that 245 00:15:24,860 --> 00:15:32,940 you need to gain on the job, and at times, once you fill your 246 00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:36,460 basket with so many things that you can do or how you can 247 00:15:36,460 --> 00:15:41,020 approach things, it's up to the individual to know which. 248 00:15:42,130 --> 00:15:45,210 Tool to actually take out of his box, to apply for the situation 249 00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:48,770 and that's where it goes back to that individual and how you can 250 00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:53,490 gauge a situation and how you know what is best for the 251 00:15:53,490 --> 00:15:56,730 problem at hand. So that is something which I 252 00:15:56,730 --> 00:15:59,370 don't think any any degree can teach you. 253 00:15:59,450 --> 00:16:03,890 That's that's something which comes with experience and as 254 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:06,970 much as experience that I've come from different backgrounds. 255 00:16:06,970 --> 00:16:10,210 And yes, it helps me with my current job, but. 256 00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:17,930 As a business analyst, I'm not new, but at the same time I'm 257 00:16:18,130 --> 00:16:21,450 there, I'm somewhere intermediate as I would say 258 00:16:21,450 --> 00:16:24,170 intermediate to senior. The only reason which is 259 00:16:24,170 --> 00:16:28,050 stopping me from becoming a senior or anything is having 260 00:16:28,050 --> 00:16:36,490 that what you would say, that presence of mine. 261 00:16:36,890 --> 00:16:40,530 And knowing exactly how to react to different situations. 262 00:16:40,930 --> 00:16:44,930 And it goes back to what I was saying in terms of sometimes if 263 00:16:44,930 --> 00:16:49,570 you have too many options, then you might get stuck in terms of 264 00:16:49,890 --> 00:16:52,650 which option do you go with. And that can become a 265 00:16:52,650 --> 00:16:55,490 contradiction. Yeah, no, I completely agree. 266 00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:58,770 I think that that's well said. I mean I'm going to clarify 267 00:16:58,770 --> 00:17:01,290 something with you from my perspective and I'm going to 268 00:17:01,290 --> 00:17:04,579 talk about I guess a little bit about the bit of business 269 00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:09,099 Analysis Institute and how we've tried to address what you've 270 00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:11,339 just talked about there. I think it's really good. 271 00:17:11,339 --> 00:17:13,579 I mean I've heard great things from yourself. 272 00:17:14,339 --> 00:17:16,579 You know, I've seen it advertised in terms of the 273 00:17:16,579 --> 00:17:17,780 degree. It definitely sounds like there 274 00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:21,339 was value at the Vic degree and how they've approached the 275 00:17:21,339 --> 00:17:24,260 curriculum which is modern day. So I think that's fantastic. 276 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:26,339 One thing I want to clarify is you call yourself an 277 00:17:26,339 --> 00:17:28,540 intermediate BA. What I would say, knowing that 278 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:32,120 you know we worked together in the past is you are actually a 279 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:36,560 senior business analyst if you were out in the market. 280 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,240 So for listeners, you're looking for a beer at some point. 281 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,440 ASH is definitely a senior business analyst and we'll talk 282 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,400 about this in a minute. However, Ash works in a 283 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,680 consultancy company and I would say that consultancy business 284 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,760 analysis is more difficult than permanent business analysis. 285 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,720 That's that well might get a whole lot of messages from us. 286 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:00,600 You're working for a consultancy. 287 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:01,840 You have to understand each client. 288 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,760 You have to rapidly understand what's going on. 289 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,840 It's a little bit like contract business analysis. 290 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,960 So Ash, just so you know, I do consider yourself a senior 291 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,280 business analyst in market terms, yes, 100%. 292 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,800 And the other aspect, I think just coming through here and 293 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,240 I'll ask you how you think this relates. 294 00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:27,170 So you've got your degree, you've done some work experience 295 00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:29,290 through internship, which is fantastic. 296 00:18:29,290 --> 00:18:31,650 And like we talked about, you talked about the New Zealand 297 00:18:31,650 --> 00:18:36,050 Stock Exchange, NZX Para Dog, which happens to be a brewery, 298 00:18:36,050 --> 00:18:38,250 which I can understand you love your craft beer. 299 00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:41,090 And then the other option was TC, which is actually our 300 00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:43,970 Tertiary Education Commission here in New Zealand which funds 301 00:18:44,050 --> 00:18:49,090 our universities and polytechnics In terms of what 302 00:18:49,090 --> 00:18:52,450 we've tried to do in the Better Business Analysis Institute is 1 303 00:18:52,450 --> 00:18:57,410 can dense that knowledge in terms of its backbone in terms 304 00:18:57,410 --> 00:19:01,170 of a six weeks, you know well level one, level 2, Level 3, but 305 00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:03,330 level one course in terms of six weeks. 306 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:07,890 But also I think what's important is what tool do you 307 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:12,170 take out of your toolbox. You've just mentioned that and 308 00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:16,130 and and and and I think there's a lot of Bas who are probably 309 00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:20,930 listening going of maybe the I IBA certified, maybe they've got 310 00:19:20,930 --> 00:19:26,310 a degree, they what do I use, what phase am I in in the 311 00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:31,310 project and what tool do I use? Is that kind of, am I, am I kind 312 00:19:31,310 --> 00:19:33,150 of picking up what you're putting down here? 313 00:19:33,150 --> 00:19:34,430 Is that? What you're talking about, 314 00:19:34,430 --> 00:19:37,150 absolutely. Because at different stages of a 315 00:19:37,150 --> 00:19:40,430 project life cycle, there are different tools that you're 316 00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:45,430 being taught as as an analyst in order to best address the 317 00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:48,150 situation at hand. And there are multiple ways. 318 00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:49,790 There's no right way. There's no wrong way. 319 00:19:50,580 --> 00:19:53,580 And you can also use a hybrid of different approaches as well, 320 00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:58,860 but knowing when to use it, how to use it, and especially 321 00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:03,540 knowing when to do pull back if you know that something you've 322 00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:06,060 tried and it's not working. I think, yeah. 323 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:11,140 That that that is what stands you apart from the rest, and 324 00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:15,580 that comes with experience, but that also comes with having a 325 00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:17,700 good presence of mind as well. You need to. 326 00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:20,140 You need to as they say you need to read your. 327 00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:24,620 Audience, Yes, it goes to the same way as well. 328 00:20:24,620 --> 00:20:27,940 In terms of when you're trying to implement something, try to 329 00:20:27,940 --> 00:20:31,380 see how it's going. If it's not working, don't feel 330 00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:33,260 safe. Scared to say that. 331 00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,540 No it's not. Let's let's try something. 332 00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:39,940 The sooner you do that, the better it is in terms of what 333 00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:42,260 you're trying to deliver. Yeah, I think that's really good 334 00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:43,780 advice. I mean, one of the things that I 335 00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:48,180 think we've talked about maybe through some coaching sessions 336 00:20:48,260 --> 00:20:52,810 is step back. So you you talk about presence 337 00:20:52,810 --> 00:20:55,490 of mind, so you're in the environment, use presence of 338 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:58,090 mind, you know, focus on what you're doing, which I think is 339 00:20:58,090 --> 00:21:00,410 great advice. And then I think I'm an 340 00:21:00,410 --> 00:21:03,730 extension of that for me and I'm not very good at Peace of Mind 341 00:21:03,730 --> 00:21:05,490 by the way. But one of the things I am good 342 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:08,930 at is stepping back. And I think when people say step 343 00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:12,850 back, not not necessarily step back for breath, which is also 344 00:21:12,850 --> 00:21:16,770 good mental health wise, but step up from whatever you're 345 00:21:16,770 --> 00:21:20,280 doing as a BA, you never have. You never. 346 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,480 You'll never fail if you step. Up. 347 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,280 In terms of the organizational structure closer to your actual 348 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,040 ultimate end client, either being the customer, external 349 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,720 customer or your ultimate business, you know, business 350 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,440 organization, so OK, cool, so, so, so right now in terms of 351 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,600 your world, you're you're a consultant moving into a senior 352 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,140 consultant. And the piece of work that 353 00:21:48,140 --> 00:21:54,580 you're working on now is for a large New Zealand client and you 354 00:21:54,580 --> 00:21:58,460 happen to be working in the data analysis space. 355 00:21:58,460 --> 00:22:03,340 Would that be fair? To say okay, So what? 356 00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:04,420 How do you? Define it. 357 00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:07,180 How do you define what you're working on right now? 358 00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:12,380 It's a tricky one, yeah. And I mean. 359 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:19,500 The thing that I would say is tricky about the project that 360 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:26,380 I'm working on is I'm basically shuffling between the business 361 00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:30,260 architect and the solution architect within the data space. 362 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:35,540 So as a business analyst, from a business perspective, you're 363 00:22:35,540 --> 00:22:38,900 looking at requirements, you're looking at different aspects of 364 00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:41,640 data. Yes, you go into the of the 365 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,000 data, but from a technical perspective and you're working 366 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,960 with solution architect, that's more of going into the technical 367 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,120 side of how do you actually build your database or how do 368 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:54,480 you actually so. You're in a hybrid situation of 369 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,320 kind of BA hat as well as DA, yeah. 370 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,760 So data analytics or data analytics? 371 00:23:03,230 --> 00:23:05,830 Role can be split up, right? And we've talked about this, 372 00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:07,430 I've talked about this for some team members. 373 00:23:07,790 --> 00:23:11,710 So one, you've got the consumption of data, so how you 374 00:23:11,710 --> 00:23:14,950 would consume the data in order to meet business requirements, 375 00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:16,910 is that right? And then the other one is 376 00:23:16,910 --> 00:23:19,750 actually processing the data and how we're going to actually 377 00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:23,270 engineer the data in a technical way to get out what we want. 378 00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:25,510 Is that fair? Yeah, absolutely. 379 00:23:25,630 --> 00:23:28,070 How, how? How are you actually gonna? 380 00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:31,030 What is the data that you need? How are you going to get it? 381 00:23:31,030 --> 00:23:35,150 How is it going to be ingested into a database? 382 00:23:35,150 --> 00:23:38,670 What type of a database that you think is suitable for the 383 00:23:38,670 --> 00:23:42,670 organization? So all those decisions also you 384 00:23:42,670 --> 00:23:49,710 need to keep in mind and that's where actually it goes back to 385 00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:51,950 what I was saying in terms of a business analyst and the 386 00:23:51,950 --> 00:23:55,910 education that you get, you get the foundations, you know you 387 00:23:55,910 --> 00:23:57,630 have a strong footing in terms of. 388 00:23:57,990 --> 00:24:00,230 Having that overall picture, having that overall 389 00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:04,990 understanding, it just boils down to you as an individual and 390 00:24:04,990 --> 00:24:09,310 how far do you want to actually step forward and go right? 391 00:24:09,950 --> 00:24:12,430 Cuz you're not bound to know everything. 392 00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:13,870 Nobody's bound to know everything. 393 00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:16,670 And. But you never do, right? 394 00:24:16,670 --> 00:24:19,790 That's part of our as most projects no matter what. 395 00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:23,590 Even I get nervous now I've done the maybe the I know what the 396 00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:27,280 gig's gonna involve. And you just don't know. 397 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,560 It's if the people are different, even if the processes 398 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,600 are fundamentally the same that biggerly called something 399 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,000 different, you know you don't and usually the context is 400 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,240 slightly different or at least the data is different. 401 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,120 So therefore, yeah, so, so I think the unknown, the known 402 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:49,600 unknowns or the puzzle because it is puzzle piece is, is just 403 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,240 what BA is about and that's OK. Absolutely. 404 00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:56,860 And being a BA, I think you need to be open to that. 405 00:24:57,260 --> 00:24:59,820 You have to have that mindset wherein you're going into 406 00:24:59,820 --> 00:25:03,060 something which is gonna be completely ambiguous, and how do 407 00:25:03,060 --> 00:25:05,700 you actually manage through that? 408 00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:09,100 And you need to be confident as an individual, and you need to 409 00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:12,940 believe in yourself as well, because if not, then this is the 410 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:16,100 wrong kind of career path for you. 411 00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:19,140 If you don't think of it in that way, yeah. 412 00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:23,060 No, I think a good analogy that I use often is. 413 00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:26,770 You're driving down the street, so imagine a street, right? 414 00:25:27,610 --> 00:25:31,450 Maybe it's a barren street at night, and there's mist. 415 00:25:33,170 --> 00:25:36,170 You you can you can take two approaches. 416 00:25:36,810 --> 00:25:40,010 You you don't know what's ahead, so you can slow right down 417 00:25:40,450 --> 00:25:44,130 toward crawling pace, and the world will become clearer to you 418 00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:47,210 as you move forward. Or you can drive at a safe pace, 419 00:25:47,210 --> 00:25:51,070 so a little bit faster. Just expect that you're ready 420 00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:52,870 for the unknown. And I think a BA needs to 421 00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:56,190 operate in that the speed needs to still be there or not 422 00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:59,230 necessarily at the full degree. And you just need to accept that 423 00:25:59,230 --> 00:26:03,070 you just don't know what's next. And then as you move closer, the 424 00:26:03,070 --> 00:26:06,990 mist clears as you move forward. And I think that is probably a 425 00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:11,150 good analogy for what we deal with and that never goes away. 426 00:26:11,790 --> 00:26:16,910 Absolutely, as part of your your education or learning as well 427 00:26:17,310 --> 00:26:18,990 you. There's something called the 428 00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:22,230 VUCA framework which you go through which kind of helps you 429 00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:26,470 assess different situations and how to react to different types 430 00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:29,110 of environments, but that is something that you can apply to 431 00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:31,350 your personal self as well to see. 432 00:26:31,390 --> 00:26:32,870 How exactly? You are saying that? 433 00:26:33,470 --> 00:26:38,550 Yeah, explain that to me. So the VUCA it's something which 434 00:26:38,550 --> 00:26:46,830 is your vulnerability, different, accountable it's. 435 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,080 You put me on the spot right now. 436 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,080 And that's OK. I'm not gonna give you a quiz, 437 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,720 but it's something for people to work at. 438 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,400 How do you say the framework? And I'll get. 439 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,920 So it's called the VUCA framework. 440 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:04,080 It's basically, yeah, VUCA. So it's different ways of 441 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,680 actually assessing a different type of an environment. 442 00:27:09,580 --> 00:27:11,780 So that's something that you're being. 443 00:27:12,020 --> 00:27:14,180 Volatility. And volatility. 444 00:27:14,180 --> 00:27:16,380 There you go. Not vulnerability. 445 00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:19,460 Yeah, ambiguity. That's the one. 446 00:27:19,620 --> 00:27:22,660 That's the one, yeah. So that's something that you can 447 00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:26,420 apply to your individual self at any given time as well, because 448 00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:30,700 you're put into situations wherein from a project 449 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:34,460 perspective or from a role perspective, you're trying to 450 00:27:34,620 --> 00:27:37,500 gauge things from different levels. 451 00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:41,130 But sometimes, as you were saying, you also need to step 452 00:27:41,130 --> 00:27:42,650 back and actually assess yourself. 453 00:27:42,650 --> 00:27:46,770 Also in terms of how are you planning to address certain 454 00:27:46,770 --> 00:27:49,490 things which are part of your project, How are you evaluating 455 00:27:49,490 --> 00:27:52,730 yourself also? That is very critical, I think, 456 00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:58,610 as an individual and as a professional also. 457 00:28:00,130 --> 00:28:01,370 Yeah. No, I completely agree. 458 00:28:02,290 --> 00:28:04,450 I think you're right. And I think those factors there 459 00:28:04,450 --> 00:28:06,370 are very, very important to review. 460 00:28:07,770 --> 00:28:12,650 So let's flip back into the fact that you've got these two roles. 461 00:28:12,850 --> 00:28:16,930 What do you think is the difference between the data 462 00:28:16,930 --> 00:28:19,330 analysis space that you're having to do at the moment and 463 00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:20,770 the business analysis? What do you think the 464 00:28:20,770 --> 00:28:25,050 differences? I think there's not much of a 465 00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:27,970 difference. It's when you get completely 466 00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:32,970 technical. So that's where it stands out 467 00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:39,920 from a business. Business focused data analyst, 468 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,560 you're basically doing more of the background, the design work 469 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:49,440 you're looking at doing a lot of you're not delivering a product. 470 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,600 So the delivery happens by the technical PA, whereas all the 471 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,280 kind of discovery that happens from a business side of a data 472 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,880 analyst and that is where most of my time is going under the 473 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,380 discovery side of things. Whereas having working close or 474 00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:12,500 rather working closely with the solution architect is giving me 475 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:21,220 that level of kind of experience from the solutionizing aspect of 476 00:29:21,580 --> 00:29:23,820 a data analyst as well. Because that's where it kind of 477 00:29:23,820 --> 00:29:28,580 gets a little bit technical because depending on the way 478 00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:31,500 that the reports or the way that data is going to be delivered 479 00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:34,210 and consumed by the business. There's a little bit of 480 00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:37,210 experience or expertise that you need from a technical side of 481 00:29:37,210 --> 00:29:38,330 things. And. 482 00:29:38,690 --> 00:29:44,490 That is where though I have that knowledge, though I come with 483 00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:48,770 the background around that it's. Always a new It's always new. 484 00:29:48,770 --> 00:29:52,090 Something ambiguous is already always coming up and you're 485 00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:54,290 always volatile, right? It goes back to that framework 486 00:29:54,290 --> 00:29:55,970 as well, so you need to assess yourself. 487 00:29:55,970 --> 00:29:57,610 Also step back and assess things. 488 00:29:57,970 --> 00:30:00,610 If you don't know what is happening in a situation, always 489 00:30:00,610 --> 00:30:02,770 ask. That's the first place to go or 490 00:30:02,770 --> 00:30:05,890 also just take a just step back and see how exactly things are 491 00:30:05,890 --> 00:30:09,890 happening. But the key difference is, as a 492 00:30:09,890 --> 00:30:12,650 business analyst in the data space, you can either be in the 493 00:30:12,650 --> 00:30:15,090 discovery part of things or you can be in the delivery part of 494 00:30:15,090 --> 00:30:16,210 things. And. 495 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:20,090 Both are completely different skill sets that would come into 496 00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:21,330 play. Cool. 497 00:30:21,450 --> 00:30:23,210 So when we talk about the delivery side. 498 00:30:23,630 --> 00:30:25,870 Which I would consider not business analysis. 499 00:30:25,870 --> 00:30:29,270 So for me that's where the where you drop off not the Cliff but 500 00:30:29,270 --> 00:30:32,350 you drop into a new role you you you that's for. 501 00:30:32,510 --> 00:30:34,110 So I think you're right. I think there is a whole of 502 00:30:34,110 --> 00:30:39,190 business data analysis slash BA work business data analysis 503 00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:42,630 which is the how datas could be consumed and used and that's 504 00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:45,550 where I draw the line and then the rest production. 505 00:30:45,550 --> 00:30:47,990 For me that is that's that's a technical role. 506 00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:50,500 That's a different. Mindset and actually you'd be 507 00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:52,460 stronger if you knew more about the tools. 508 00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:57,220 The latest technology, data science for example, would be 509 00:30:57,220 --> 00:31:00,380 where you should start. And do you agree with that in 510 00:31:00,380 --> 00:31:03,300 terms of the viewers starting A? Game, Yeah, absolutely. 511 00:31:03,660 --> 00:31:06,460 And yeah, good. Yeah, cool. 512 00:31:06,780 --> 00:31:10,100 Now just a question about that, the delivery side, even though 513 00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:12,700 that's another job role if you like. 514 00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:15,830 This you said you're working closely with the solution 515 00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:17,830 architect and I've got a lot of architect friends. 516 00:31:18,310 --> 00:31:21,710 You know some that some it's quite interesting working with 517 00:31:21,710 --> 00:31:23,510 architect. Sometimes you can battle with 518 00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:25,030 them. There should always be tension 519 00:31:25,030 --> 00:31:27,950 with an architect because they want to design the perfect 520 00:31:27,950 --> 00:31:30,830 solution. And you as a BA defining the 521 00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:33,070 requirements and not necessarily looking for perfection. 522 00:31:33,070 --> 00:31:35,150 You're looking for the outcome, right? 523 00:31:35,150 --> 00:31:38,310 Not necessarily a shiny piece of term now. 524 00:31:40,420 --> 00:31:43,780 I've done a lot of work back in the day, Systems analysis which 525 00:31:43,780 --> 00:31:48,980 is where BA first came about and Systems Analysis is now split 526 00:31:48,980 --> 00:31:52,100 between business analysis and also solution architecture. 527 00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:59,460 Do you think that the delivery side of data analysis is a sub 528 00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:01,780 function of solution architecture? 529 00:32:01,940 --> 00:32:03,780 It's just the grunt work behind it. 530 00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:08,780 I think the solution architectures. 531 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,920 Ends at very high level, right? So you're. 532 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,640 Saying it's the low level version. 533 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,040 Of I would say the low level is where actually the BA would get 534 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,720 involved in, but in order for a solution architect to have that 535 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,360 high level view, he has to be completely informed from the 536 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,280 discovery side of things. So that's where a business 537 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,600 analyst branches between everything. 538 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:33,400 OK. Cool. 539 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,160 I'm gonna hold you there. So we've got our Discovery BA, 540 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,240 which you're doing BA work. Feeding into a solution 541 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,600 architect Completely agree. And a project manager is the 542 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,120 three amigo model. But the grunt work under the 543 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,000 solution, which is do you that role we're talking about? 544 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,520 Sometimes people call it a technical BA role, yeah, 545 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,640 sometimes they call it a systems analyst, sometimes they call it 546 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:04,560 maybe a specialist data science. Do you consider that just the 547 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,240 the grunt work that the architect doesn't want to do? 548 00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:11,140 Or it's not their role because they are high paid professional 549 00:33:11,140 --> 00:33:13,620 at the high level? I mean. 550 00:33:13,820 --> 00:33:18,340 See, it depends upon what you've been contracted to do or what 551 00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:20,340 what you're you're being given to do. 552 00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:24,180 But I think the more that the solution architect gets into 553 00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:28,580 that level of detail, the better informed he is or he or she is 554 00:33:28,580 --> 00:33:32,940 in terms of solutionizing something he needs, he or she 555 00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:35,700 needs to have that level of detail to make an informed 556 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:37,780 decision. And that's where I think. 557 00:33:38,180 --> 00:33:42,220 The BA plays a really big role because thats the BAS 558 00:33:42,220 --> 00:33:46,260 responsibility to communicate that across correctly to those 559 00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:50,100 concerned. Its getting the right level of 560 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:53,220 information from the business and communicating that to the 561 00:33:53,220 --> 00:33:58,740 solution architects so that he can make decisions based off 562 00:33:58,740 --> 00:34:06,100 what is required, needed and not what is wanted or what he or she 563 00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:08,460 thinks is ideal for. For the business. 564 00:34:09,139 --> 00:34:11,380 Yeah, I'm pushing you there because it's an interesting 565 00:34:11,380 --> 00:34:15,219 space is that for me, I feel like it's it's the unknown 566 00:34:15,219 --> 00:34:18,420 factor about who who plays that role, who does the lower level. 567 00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:21,260 It's actually solutionizing for me, it's solution. 568 00:34:21,260 --> 00:34:25,179 Because for example, let's take a really, really, really common 569 00:34:25,179 --> 00:34:28,179 example. You've got two systems and you 570 00:34:28,179 --> 00:34:32,780 want to take, let's just say someone's name, maybe it's in a 571 00:34:32,780 --> 00:34:35,780 full name field. So let's. 572 00:34:36,350 --> 00:34:40,030 Right. So Ben Walsh, and you're moving 573 00:34:40,030 --> 00:34:42,630 that to a new system, let's not worry about how it's moved, 574 00:34:42,630 --> 00:34:45,909 maybe through APIs And the other, the system you're moving 575 00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:50,150 it to has a first name and a last name field, Okay. 576 00:34:50,590 --> 00:34:54,830 So you know there needs to be data transformation done and you 577 00:34:54,830 --> 00:34:59,950 have to map those fields, correct. 578 00:35:00,030 --> 00:35:04,790 And you can challenge me here, The business doesn't care how 579 00:35:04,830 --> 00:35:06,620 that's done. Yep. 580 00:35:06,860 --> 00:35:10,620 The business just wants first name here and they actually 581 00:35:10,620 --> 00:35:14,220 want, sorry, full name here. They may even want full name 582 00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:16,620 here. But you know that the database 583 00:35:16,620 --> 00:35:18,980 only accepts first name, last name, so you have to get it in 584 00:35:18,980 --> 00:35:20,900 there. For me, that's part of the 585 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:24,180 solution Solutionizer. That's the solution that you're 586 00:35:24,180 --> 00:35:25,740 putting in place. Yep. 587 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:30,860 Is it the Ba's responsibility? I'll put you on the spot to 588 00:35:31,020 --> 00:35:34,140 provide that mapping and the pseudo code for transformation. 589 00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:36,980 Or is it the solution architect and the delivery teams? 590 00:35:39,340 --> 00:35:42,100 I would say it's definitely the business analyst's 591 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:44,340 responsibility to actually provide that level of 592 00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:47,820 information. Wow, OK, that's what we might 593 00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:50,060 disagree. So for me that requires 594 00:35:50,060 --> 00:35:53,340 technical expertise and that's not value for the business. 595 00:35:53,340 --> 00:35:55,980 That is, well, it is valuable because it's working. 596 00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:59,420 But for me that means you require a specialist skill in 597 00:35:59,420 --> 00:36:03,620 order to do that, and how you do that depends on the solution. 598 00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:09,020 And therefore the BA is not is not is too focused of the 599 00:36:09,020 --> 00:36:10,940 solution. It's quite interesting, that's, 600 00:36:11,220 --> 00:36:14,540 yeah. So probably it's worth 601 00:36:14,540 --> 00:36:17,860 clarifying when I said it's a responsibility of the BA, it's a 602 00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:21,020 responsibility of the BA to define how that happens. 603 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,640 It's only the business who knows what level of transformation or 604 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,040 what business logic is required. But they don't. 605 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,320 The business doesn't know. So the business has no idea that 606 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,880 the solution is going to split into the database first name and 607 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,600 last name. They don't care because they are 608 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,640 at the user interface level, They just see a full name field. 609 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,640 So why does that? The business doesn't understand 610 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,760 how that performs. And this is this ambiguity 611 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,200 phase, which for me is where Ba's need to step back and say, 612 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,910 actually we don't do that. What we do is we are focused on 613 00:36:52,910 --> 00:36:56,750 what the business wants and on their wants and their needs to 614 00:36:56,750 --> 00:36:59,870 deliver a solution. And for me personally and what 615 00:36:59,990 --> 00:37:03,230 would I, you know, push for in the Better Business Analysis 616 00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:05,910 Institute as we draw a line there and we said we don't do 617 00:37:05,950 --> 00:37:09,150 that. So what are your feelings? 618 00:37:09,150 --> 00:37:12,590 If I was drawing that line firstly, how would you feel if I 619 00:37:12,590 --> 00:37:14,310 draw that line? Would that make you frustrated? 620 00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:17,230 I know you can do it. That's whether or not you should 621 00:37:17,230 --> 00:37:19,470 I. Would say. 622 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,000 In an environment where you have adequate amount of resources, 623 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,080 who can take that level of responsibility or have that 624 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:37,000 clear delineation and most and most projects come with that 625 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,160 resource capacity, so it is good to define that well in the 626 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,400 beginning. In terms of where you draw that 627 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,520 line, it shouldn't be a case that you get get into it 628 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,900 full-fledged. And then at some point down the 629 00:37:51,940 --> 00:37:55,060 delivery stream, you realize that this is something that 630 00:37:55,060 --> 00:38:00,260 needs to be delivered by a different resource and not by 631 00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:02,620 you. So having those, that is where 632 00:38:02,620 --> 00:38:04,020 project management comes into play. 633 00:38:04,420 --> 00:38:08,100 This has to be well clearly defined at the start of a 634 00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:10,260 project before you move into the delivery phase. 635 00:38:10,860 --> 00:38:12,980 Yeah, Yeah. So I think you're getting to a 636 00:38:12,980 --> 00:38:15,020 good point there. The reality is as with. 637 00:38:15,450 --> 00:38:18,170 A gig on one which is not dissimilar to what you will 638 00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:22,090 focus on at the moment. It usually falls to the BA 639 00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:28,570 because there isn't anyone else. And you may have those skills, 640 00:38:28,570 --> 00:38:30,770 but you may not, right? That's the thing. 641 00:38:30,810 --> 00:38:34,090 It depends on the BA. Because if you're a business 642 00:38:34,090 --> 00:38:37,330 focused BA, you may not understand database structures. 643 00:38:37,330 --> 00:38:41,370 Or sorry, you might understand it at a conceptual level, but 644 00:38:41,370 --> 00:38:44,890 you might not understand data mapping, yeah? 645 00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:48,450 You know, really good. It's a really good debate. 646 00:38:49,810 --> 00:38:53,490 Yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, as an individual, you 647 00:38:53,490 --> 00:38:56,890 also need to know exactly what your strengths and weaknesses 648 00:38:56,890 --> 00:39:00,450 are and you need to communicate that across very clearly as well 649 00:39:00,450 --> 00:39:04,170 so that it doesn't fall on you as an where you become 650 00:39:04,170 --> 00:39:07,650 accountable for something. If you think that this is 651 00:39:07,650 --> 00:39:11,610 something that you do not have the level of expertise, or if 652 00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:13,770 you think that this is way ahead of you. 653 00:39:14,210 --> 00:39:17,850 Terms of what you can deliver, you need to be plain and simple 654 00:39:17,850 --> 00:39:21,850 about it right from the start. So you said that you ended up in 655 00:39:21,850 --> 00:39:24,490 the situation you're having to do this lower level data 656 00:39:24,490 --> 00:39:28,570 mapping, which is what I which many Bas will find themselves 657 00:39:28,610 --> 00:39:31,290 because it will just be like have you done it or actually 658 00:39:31,290 --> 00:39:34,450 it's expected even if you don't have those skills because it's 659 00:39:34,450 --> 00:39:39,290 associated, what advice do you have for Bas in that situation? 660 00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:41,750 So the Bas first. They're playing in the data 661 00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:43,390 analysis space. They're having to do some of 662 00:39:43,390 --> 00:39:46,990 this delivery work. What resources or skills, 663 00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:53,430 websites or skills or tools do you think BI should get familiar 664 00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:55,510 with, just in case they're in this situation? 665 00:39:58,310 --> 00:40:01,230 See, I would say it's completely depend. 666 00:40:01,350 --> 00:40:04,430 Having the general understanding in terms of how data mapping 667 00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:07,510 works itself, that gives you a really good head start. 668 00:40:08,070 --> 00:40:09,350 There are a lot of resources out. 669 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,200 Out there, that can help you do that. 670 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,840 But depending on the solution that you're going with, if it's 671 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,160 a specific solution, say if you're going with Power BI, 672 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,720 there are a lot of learning resources there and everything 673 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:22,880 can see. That's the thing. 674 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,920 That's the beauty about a skill. It can be taught, right. 675 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,880 It's different from a soft skill that is something managing 676 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,000 people, for example. That's something that cannot be 677 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,240 taught. You need to learn it. 678 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:39,050 You have to go through that. Whereas a skill is something 679 00:40:39,050 --> 00:40:40,930 that can be learned. You just need to put in that 680 00:40:40,930 --> 00:40:46,450 time and effort and have that kind of the mindset that you 681 00:40:46,450 --> 00:40:48,970 want to learn. Because if you don't have that, 682 00:40:50,050 --> 00:40:53,730 then it's not gonna be possible. In terms of resources, what are 683 00:40:53,730 --> 00:40:56,650 the places that you can go? There are different places if 684 00:40:56,650 --> 00:40:59,130 you're a visual person, I'm, I'm more of a visual person. 685 00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:03,930 I like watching videos in terms of how things are done. 686 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,400 That helps me better keep myself better informed. 687 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,360 If there are some really critical things which I need 688 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:18,080 some more knowledge around of I don't find any visual kind of a 689 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,960 resource that can help me keep that informed. 690 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,120 Then I would look to read additional about things. 691 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,200 But I feel personally YouTube is a really good place to start as 692 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,890 well the heaps of resources out there which can help you keep 693 00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:37,610 informed. So it just depends on find that 694 00:41:38,090 --> 00:41:41,970 resource which helps you the way that you are able to grasp 695 00:41:41,970 --> 00:41:43,210 things. Yeah. 696 00:41:43,890 --> 00:41:47,050 I think one of the skills that we teach at the Better Business 697 00:41:47,050 --> 00:41:50,650 Analysis Institute, which we say is actually part of our 698 00:41:50,650 --> 00:41:53,730 framework, is a conceptual data model. 699 00:41:54,570 --> 00:41:59,410 So understanding the concept, so you have a conceptual data model 700 00:41:59,890 --> 00:42:02,410 and then under that you have the Physical model. 701 00:42:02,410 --> 00:42:04,770 So you kind of have a logic, the logic behind it. 702 00:42:04,810 --> 00:42:06,890 Logic I do think is the BA space. 703 00:42:07,050 --> 00:42:10,770 So I think understanding what is a database table, even if the 704 00:42:10,770 --> 00:42:14,090 solution isn't a database table, understanding that there's 705 00:42:14,090 --> 00:42:16,450 something called a table with fields. 706 00:42:17,310 --> 00:42:21,070 Which have values and that are displayed to the user that we 707 00:42:21,070 --> 00:42:23,990 just talked about before the fact that fields can be joined 708 00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:27,950 together concatenated. I would suggest that 709 00:42:28,030 --> 00:42:32,550 understanding having advanced skills in Excel is always 710 00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:39,670 helpful and exactly so I think. If you can use Excel with anger 711 00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:43,710 and you understand the concepts of a data model or database, 712 00:42:43,790 --> 00:42:45,750 relational database, don't worry about anything else. 713 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,000 Then you should be in a good space to be able to tackle the 714 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,120 basics of data analysis. Would be my two cents there. 715 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,200 Yeah, absolutely. I'll completely agree with you. 716 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,440 A fairly good knowledge about Excel is a really good starting 717 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:09,600 point for anything related to data, and that's something which 718 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,320 is easily accessible to every single person as well. 719 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,910 And then playing around, there's a lot of places where you can a 720 00:43:16,910 --> 00:43:22,550 lot of websites which allow you to model databases, query 721 00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:27,590 databases, relational databases, and I would recommend doing 722 00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:33,750 that. SQL, basically SQL or different 723 00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:35,990 languages, depending. If you have an inkling of 724 00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:38,630 knowing where this project is going, what the solution is 725 00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:41,190 going to look like, playing around with that. 726 00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:45,190 There are so many places in on the Internet that you can go 727 00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:48,990 where and you have models or mockups of those type of 728 00:43:48,990 --> 00:43:51,950 solutions where you can just go play around with because that 729 00:43:51,950 --> 00:43:56,110 gives you an understanding and you need to have that base 730 00:43:56,110 --> 00:43:57,510 understanding of how things work. 731 00:43:58,190 --> 00:44:03,430 Yes, conceptually, database, a relational database, What is the 732 00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:07,190 table, what is the dimension, What is the fact table. 733 00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:12,710 All that is good to know, but you also need to have that 734 00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:15,870 understanding in terms of what makes a fact table, what are the 735 00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:19,390 elements or what are the attributes, what is a 736 00:44:19,390 --> 00:44:23,990 dimensional table. So all that when you from a 737 00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:30,790 theoretical perspective that is one kind of a mindset or giving 738 00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:33,630 you that base knowledge, but when you're actually applying 739 00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:36,150 it, it can be completely different because you're 740 00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:38,510 applying it to something which is very specific to an 741 00:44:38,510 --> 00:44:42,440 organization or to a project. So you need to have that that 742 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,480 foundation very clear in terms of what what makes up those 743 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,800 those building, building blocks. Building blocks, Yeah yeah yeah. 744 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,760 I think that's a good way of describing it if you understand 745 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,000 the building blocks. And for me if you got to a 746 00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,480 position where the complexity was beyond, I've got this this 747 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,720 tab in excel, this sheet which is a table and this is another 748 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,520 tab sheet in excel and this is a table and this is the data I 749 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,750 want in it. For me, that would be natural 750 00:45:12,750 --> 00:45:16,430 progression to go. Hey, we may need to bring in an 751 00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:18,830 actual data analyst to help us from this point. 752 00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:23,350 Yep. And so they would understand how 753 00:45:23,350 --> 00:45:25,950 it's used, how it's structured, how it's going to be reported 754 00:45:25,950 --> 00:45:30,270 on, if you're getting down to DAX queries and Power BI. 755 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,480 You are. That is not something that you 756 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:34,920 can acquire in a couple of weeks. 757 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,240 It's something that requires a few. 758 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,120 You need to, you need to have a specialization in that area, and 759 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,640 it's always best for a BA to make that delineation, as you 760 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,840 said, once it moves into that highly technical space. 761 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:58,000 If you're not skilled enough to be accountable for that, make 762 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,680 sure you make it clear and let someone else do that. 763 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:08,200 Because if not, then yeah, it's not the right approach to go, 764 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:09,120 yeah. No. 765 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,200 But also as you're doing that, like you said, it's about time 766 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,400 and meanwhile your users don't know what's going on and you 767 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,320 should be spending time with them as a BA as opposed to down 768 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,840 in the database. Yeah, no, that's really 769 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,240 interesting. So Ash is I'm gonna just ask you 770 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:28,320 a couple of rapid fire questions before we wrap up today. 771 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,120 It's been a really good conversation. 772 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,560 What would you say is your least favorite thing about business 773 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:43,320 analysis? The least favorite aspect is. 774 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,200 He thinks. I know it's a very difficult 775 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,560 question, right? Because the only reason I got 776 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,720 into it because I like everything but the most gruesome 777 00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:06,840 thing is I think trying to cope with ambiguity, if that is 778 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,440 something which is always gonna happen and you need to get 779 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,240 accustomed to it. Yeah. 780 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,040 And what would you think your most favorite part of BA is? 781 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,040 I think engaging with users? I do quite enjoy that. 782 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,760 Yeah. Yeah. 783 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,200 I think that's pretty common now. 784 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,120 Two other questions not related to BA. 785 00:47:29,140 --> 00:47:31,060 What is your favorite song of all time? 786 00:47:32,380 --> 00:47:39,180 Ooh, there are so many. The one song, the one song which 787 00:47:39,220 --> 00:47:43,460 will always be my top favorite, is it's called An American Dream 788 00:47:43,460 --> 00:47:47,060 by the Nitty Gritty Dirt brand. Nice. 789 00:47:48,180 --> 00:47:48,580 Nice. Yeah. 790 00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:51,500 So I grew up. I grew up listening to that 791 00:47:51,500 --> 00:47:53,500 song, and that'll always be one of my favorites, yeah. 792 00:47:54,260 --> 00:47:56,980 And finally, your favorite movie. 793 00:47:59,330 --> 00:48:05,450 Ooh, my favorite movie. I would go with Pat Adams. 794 00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:09,170 Nice. Thank you very much, Ash. 795 00:48:09,210 --> 00:48:10,770 That's been a really great conversation. 796 00:48:10,770 --> 00:48:13,290 Hopefully those listening, you know there's different 797 00:48:13,290 --> 00:48:15,610 perspectives. We've talked about the idea of a 798 00:48:15,610 --> 00:48:19,610 degree, you know, what they gave to you, the idea of your journey 799 00:48:19,610 --> 00:48:21,610 to get to New Zealand from, you know. 800 00:48:23,310 --> 00:48:25,870 Immigrating here. And then also finally just 801 00:48:25,870 --> 00:48:29,150 talking about BA and outer space and they'll debate around how 802 00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:34,790 far do you go as BA and when is it appropriate for you to, you 803 00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:38,270 know, call in for some some specialized help. 804 00:48:39,790 --> 00:48:42,870 Thank you, Ash. Thank you so much, Ben, as well 805 00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:44,070 for the opportunity. Yeah. 806 00:48:44,550 --> 00:48:47,510 Thank you. I'll speak to you soon. 807 00:48:47,790 --> 00:48:48,390 Bye. Bye.