1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,400 The Better Business Analysis Institute Presence the Better 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,760 Business Analysis Podcast with Kinsman Walsh. 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Today I'm honored to have two special guests with me, Marcella 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,880 Copman and Bartwin Van de Pols from the organizational change 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,960 consultancy Defiant. Marcella is the co-owner of 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,200 Defiant, a company dedicated to fostering ownership within 7 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:29,960 individuals and organization, ensuring conventional corporate 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,240 jargon and ineffective frameworks. 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,160 Her impressive background encompasses agile and 10 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:38,080 organizational development, having collaborated with 11 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,720 renowned companies such as Naviko Group and Assurity 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,640 Consulting. Moreover, Masala is an Encompass 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,160 author and public speaker advocating for a human centered 14 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:54,040 approach in business strategies and change management. 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,720 Welcome to the show. Thanks Ben. 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,120 Well done on the pronunciation of my difficult Dutch name. 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,880 It was also real good. Thank you for having me. 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,560 Not a problem. And joining Marcella today we 19 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,640 have heard Chief of Change at Defiant, which is Bartwyn. 20 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:14,000 Bartwyn has a mountain of expertise in agile 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,360 methodologies, having held various roles related to agile 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,360 consulting and delivery. And Bartwind's professional 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:25,320 journey is is is a wide journey with a whole lot of different 24 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:28,240 companies like Go, See and Assurity Consulting, where he 25 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,560 has excelled in program and portfolio management, developing 26 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,240 product management capabilities and even leading delivery and 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,920 project coordination roles to facilitate effective agile 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,720 delivery. Now, in the spirit of Full 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,800 disclosure, I've had the privilege of working alongside 30 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,000 Bartwin for a brief period at Surety. 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,320 Consulting after Marcella's time, and it's great to see you 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,640 again. Welcome to the show. 33 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,040 Thanks. Thanks. 34 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,280 That's that was an amazing introduction. 35 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,000 Happy. It's been recorded so I can play 36 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,400 it a couple times over for myself. 37 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,040 That was good. Not a problem. 38 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,160 And apparently a character in a book Bartwin. 39 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,440 Yes, yes, yes. Let's not steer into that one. 40 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,400 Why not? I think it's great to stare 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,240 into. So, yeah. 42 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,120 So we we have a, we have two very famous people here today 43 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,840 and one of the reasons we have Team Defiant joining us today is 44 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,200 that you've just released the book. 45 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:21,800 Congratulations. Amazing. 46 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,160 Yeah. We're so happy about it. 47 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,760 Thank you. And that's no small feat at all. 48 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,960 No, we thought it was at first, but we've quickly found out that 49 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,960 writing a book takes a lot of time, so we're happy to have it 50 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,360 released and and out there. And I mean, we'll get to this in 51 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,080 a minute, but I was lucky enough to get an advance copy of the 52 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,560 book well structured. It's it's really well put 53 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,160 together. It was, it was an easy read. 54 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,240 Awesome. Good to hear. 55 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,560 Good to hear. Now my take away, MY1 take away, 56 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,440 and I'm going to, and I'm going to throw it over to you to to 57 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,840 talk about the book, why you wrote it, what's it about? 58 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,240 But I mean my my one take away was the book aims to change 59 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,920 people's perspective on organizational change. 60 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,680 Exactly. Yeah, that that's correct. 61 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,960 And I think the book has started for us out of frustration and 62 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,680 intrigue. Frustration because we saw so 63 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,800 many organizational change initiatives failing and not 64 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,120 reaching the potential. Maybe changing one or two teams 65 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,120 but not the organization for which it was intended to change 66 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,480 and improve. And also intrigue because if you 67 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,440 just Google organizational change frameworks, books, 68 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:39,480 guides, coaches, consultants, there is just a mountain of 69 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,440 knowledge and intelligence out there. 70 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,120 So those are some smart people that put the time and effort 71 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,280 into this. So how come with all that 72 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,480 knowledge and all the expertise that we have, we still see so 73 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,600 many change initiatives fill? Yeah. 74 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,320 And you actually talk about some very shocking statistics when it 75 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,200 comes to change. Maybe that's important to 76 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,280 highlight in terms of we're spending all this money on 77 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,680 change, as you said. And I know from being in the 78 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,560 kind of in the trenches, you you're involved in change 79 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,880 programs and you're like, well, OK, the whole program's not 80 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,600 doing well, but at least my piece is doing well. 81 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,440 So what are some of those statistics that you said with 82 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,079 all these books? What are some of these 83 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:20,320 statistics? So I think one of the main 84 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,600 statistic that is for lots of people a shocking number is, is 85 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,480 the amount of change initiatives that that tend to fail. 86 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,600 So with failure it is, it is important to understand that 87 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,600 it's not like a complete burn down of the organization from 88 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,480 what it was, but failure is not achieving the goals or or the 89 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,160 ideas that that a company had before they started their 90 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,440 transformation. But that number is 74% and 74%. 91 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,280 It's it's like 3/4 of organizations that try something 92 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:56,880 end up with not liking the results. 93 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,840 And that was for us a point in time. 94 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,400 So we started writing this book and brainstorming about it when 95 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,600 when the pandemic happened and we we were in lockdown. 96 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,400 Umm, And what you saw in in New Zealand was suddenly a shift 97 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,360 from organizations that used to say we cannot be digital, we 98 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,560 cannot be remote, It's all too hard. 99 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,480 Within 24 hours they were freaking digital. 100 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,480 Yeah, it's like digital transformations were were 101 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,080 suddenly happening and we were we were at that point going like 102 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,880 wait, well how? How come? 103 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,880 How come this has been mentioned by consultants, mentioned by 104 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,080 coaches is what you need to do and frameworks telling you what 105 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,760 to do and how to do it and books about digital transformations 106 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:48,800 and normal transformations and still 74% ends up of agile is 107 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:54,520 not for us kind of conclusion. Did you think that the COVID 108 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,760 kind of situation forcing people interchange and did you find 109 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,560 that the frameworks were thrown out the window. 110 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,720 So for all the talk of you know very expensive consultants of 111 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,440 which we we back up some of those and going into 112 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,080 organizations helping out doing bits and pieces that for all the 113 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,200 investment in that when it came to COVID that the robot went out 114 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,760 the window and people were just suddenly doing things. 115 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,600 I I reckon that that definitely play part right. 116 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:27,040 So daily stand ups suddenly couldn't happen anymore because 117 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:32,760 there was no office to stand in. It's turned into let's use 118 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,680 digital tools like mirror and mural and Jira and whatever. 119 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,560 It's suddenly because yeah, what else you're not in the office. 120 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,120 We cannot talk. Lots of like middle management 121 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,000 that got stuck in this twilight zone of how do I now manage the 122 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,080 things getting done. Well I cannot manage my people 123 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,080 so that was that was a huge difference. 124 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,920 So yeah, I I do. Do you think the pandemic 125 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,760 definitely helps to show at least at that beginning point 126 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,640 that a framework is is just it doesn't do anything for you? 127 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,640 It doesn't maybe in a short term, but definitely not in the 128 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,120 long term. It's still depends on people 129 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,440 doing the work and two week springs or working from home for 130 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,120 24/7. All of that I guess motivated 131 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,400 you to start putting this book together. 132 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,040 It's got a very interesting name and and Bob would maybe you 133 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,960 could tell me about the book and and where you got the name from. 134 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,520 Yeah, essentially where we got the name from is, is for us 135 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,680 looking at the core reason identity, why changes were 136 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,800 failing. So what is the thing that would 137 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,960 make change stick? And we came to the idea of 138 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,040 leadership. Often you would hear, listen, 139 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,280 leaders need to be more advocates of change, be involved 140 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,400 in the change. But we felt that was like a 141 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:55,120 shortcut or or not, it sort of dismisses the idea that change 142 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,720 is for everyone. So the concept of leadership 143 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,480 that we came to is essentially labeling relabeling leadership 144 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,920 as ownership. So taking ownership of what is 145 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,040 happening or or taking ownership of a change at some level is 146 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,080 taking the lead into what's happening in your world and that 147 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,120 sort of brings back ownership or leadership to everyone. 148 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,360 So not just saying it's AC suite that needs to change, it's my 149 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,800 manager that needs to change and if only this would happen then 150 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,280 the change would be successful. So that concept of ownership 151 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,160 became critical in the book and therefore the title is own it, 152 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,159 our own shit because that's where we came about to go. 153 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:40,919 We need to be more, well almost aggressive to say we are dealing 154 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:47,320 with a very serious issue here. 3/4 of a change in organizations 155 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,440 is failing. I think to come back to that 156 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,760 earlier point of failure. When we think of failure, we 157 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,400 often think of complete and utter failure. 158 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,040 An organization ends. Failure in our book means 159 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,240 essentially we've started off something. 160 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,920 We try to framework roles and practices. 161 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,400 We sort of had a had a go at it, didn't work and now we're on to 162 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,520 the next thing. So to make it more practical, 163 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,040 maybe we started with sprints and Scrum Masters and product 164 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,720 Owners, but somewhere, especially the COVID time, we 165 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,280 went like actually we need to focus on being profitable here. 166 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,600 Yes, yes, yes. So we just do away with all of 167 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,920 that and now the next thing comes along and a new silver 168 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,080 bullet that will bring about real change. 169 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,560 So then nobody has talks about in our opinion about the success 170 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:40,440 level of that first change and then also talks about the change 171 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,280 fatigue it brings in the employees of the company to go 172 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,400 and like another change. Sure, I've been in many 173 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,160 companies as a consultant and coach in which a more senior 174 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,880 employee would come up to me and say listen Bart, great stuff and 175 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,680 and I understand it. But we tried something similar 176 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:00,960 like this ten years ago and it didn't work and also five years 177 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,560 ago by the way and that also didn't work. 178 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,320 So why don't we just sit tight and let this whole thing blow 179 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,080 over and then probably in three years we'll see you again 180 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,080 because you have some other great initiative to push. 181 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,720 So I'm painting a bit black and white picks here, but that's 182 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,240 that's what I think we are neglecting the the damage that 183 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,880 it does for employees, the impact on motivation of 184 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,160 employees, the financial damage as well. 185 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,320 So many of these consulting firm taking a lot of money of your 186 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,280 books, helping you with the change and then a lot of damage 187 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:39,720 ending up for your company. So that's why we wanted to make 188 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,000 a definitive statement to say this is the line either you 189 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,680 start owning this change or you're owning something horrible 190 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:49,680 instead. Exactly right. 191 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:53,720 So you've got this prerogative kind of statement about, yes, 192 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,320 ownership. So you either. 193 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,280 So it's kind of to wake up, wake up. 194 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,680 Yes. We, like you just said, you're 195 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:04,480 you're in this cloud of spending a lot of money of never really 196 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,800 seeing if the benefits were met of what you did. 197 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,800 And I, I, I personally hate the concept of benefits realization, 198 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,200 not because it's not a good thing. 199 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,600 I love we want benefits. But the frame itself turns into 200 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,360 a framework and a bureaucracy in itself, which is also the reason 201 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:22,640 why it's not done particularly well. 202 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,840 No one ever goes back and actually sees whether or not the 203 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,960 true benefits of the business case, if you like, or what money 204 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,200 you're spending, whatever way your business casing actually 205 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,000 met the requirements. You're right because we're we're 206 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,360 busy on the next thing. It's like, you know, do we spend 207 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,000 the money? Did the did the did the money 208 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,240 get spent? Do we account for it properly? 209 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,200 OK, cool. Did something go in? 210 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,360 OK, great. We'll we'll move on to the next, 211 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,000 the next bit. And so you're right, the failure 212 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,000 is missed and around the own, if we just come to the own around 213 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,960 the ownership is key at those different levels. 214 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,320 So you've got the, like you said, this is a traditional kind 215 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,640 of who's the business owner, right? 216 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,360 I mean, even we've had that well before Agile turned up on the 217 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,960 sink and we still talk about it now the sponsor, the person 218 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,120 paying for it and ultimately they're responsible, but they're 219 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,000 not on the ground level. They have no idea what's going 220 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,040 on, especially in in an organization where you might 221 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,400 have three or four tiers so that they don't know they're just 222 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,000 getting a member of Red Amber Green. 223 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,560 So how much do you think ownership is important even at 224 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:28,280 the individual level? So you've got the individual 225 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,720 taking leadership, ownership. Maybe in COVID times you just 226 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,400 discussed that individuals had to like not be slack. 227 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,200 They had to work from home. There's a bit of a trust element 228 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,320 there of them actually turning up and doing the job and then 229 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,440 you've got the kind of the kind of team leadership or the one 230 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,040 taking responsibility at the actual coalface of change. 231 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,480 Do you think it it means for everyone? 232 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,000 I do, I do and I think if we that's the part of the book that 233 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,000 we we try to unpack ownership. So if you try to unpack 234 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,840 ownership, we look at those three ingredients that we 235 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,480 identified there. You have driver, so having a 236 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,880 plan for the change and you have actions on the other end, so 237 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,640 activities that you do to make that plan executable. 238 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,200 So those two things typically in any change program are there 239 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,400 people have sort of a plan, this is where we're going to do it, 240 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,280 whether it be training courses or role changes or whatever you 241 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,640 like. And then we have the actual 242 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,120 executional actions. But the big part that we, we 243 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,840 focus on the book is that third defining determining ingredient 244 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,320 of belief. And I think that's that that's 245 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,960 for us the the, the key take away in the book if you want to 246 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,560 get real ownership we need to talk about the elephant in the 247 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:44,360 room if you will. The the, the one thing that we 248 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,240 don't like to talk about. Do we actually have conviction 249 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,320 believe that this change will be significant, important to us and 250 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,560 everybody. This is for me one of the most 251 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:58,000 interesting things of the concept. 252 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:03,160 Everybody believes in a stood up to a certain level even if to 253 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,560 you or you been listening in to us or listener to this podcast, 254 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,000 you start to believe some of what we're saying. 255 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,200 Maybe not all of what we're saying or you're believing all 256 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,120 of it but you already have sort of a gut check kind of 257 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,640 conviction. Do I agree with this And that's 258 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,200 in the book, a large part where we connect things or believe to 259 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,600 our brain how our brain works to protect us or advocate for 260 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,920 change. Either you are for change 261 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,600 because your brain says, yes, I'm all in. 262 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,680 I like this stuff and it's it's you're safe here or your brain 263 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,920 goes. This is a change to my earlier 264 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,080 example of that senior employee going well. 265 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,400 Your brain maybe of that person goes, I want to protect you from 266 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,640 harm because we've been through a couple of these change 267 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,040 initiatives that end up burning you. 268 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,480 So we're not going to invest into this belief or we going to 269 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:56,000 believe that it's going to fail. It's also belief that's aimed at 270 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:56,840 the wrong thing. Yeah. 271 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,280 And then you won't be involved in it and you don't believe in 272 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,600 it. And then it will fail. 273 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,600 And then your brain goes, CI told you. 274 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,400 And is the point there about and we'll come to belief and I I 275 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,000 really want to keep in perspective on on belief because 276 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,720 it's actually this is a fascinating topic in 2024 anyway 277 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:21,520 around news and and and and what but but but you've got the 278 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,680 ownership so we talked about before so you've got the say the 279 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,520 senior manager who's responsible for a change that they're only 280 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,400 change and it's been enforced on them by their manager maybe 281 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,840 they've been told that they are now capable. 282 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,640 And so one of the points that you make in the in the book and 283 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,000 we'll talk about the personas that you use, which is really 284 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:47,000 helpful to to to kind of explain some of these dynamics, but is 285 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,080 it the overlap between you have to own, you have to, you can't 286 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,800 actually have true ownership if you don't believe? 287 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,800 In the concept how we how we painted it in the book explains 288 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,840 and and we pointed out actually quite quite black and white. 289 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,800 Everyone has always a level of ownership. 290 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:12,160 It is the question what level of ownership is needed to achieve 291 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,280 your goal. Your driver first is what is the 292 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,600 level of ownership that you show and and you act upon. 293 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,760 So what is what is really important? 294 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,440 When we took this out of, for example, the the business 295 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,920 environment, but took it more into a personal view of 296 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,360 ownership. The reason why why some people 297 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,760 are great in having New Year's resolutions and suddenly achieve 298 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,240 what they thought they were going to achieve in on the 1st 299 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,640 of January versus people who in February are already done with 300 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,600 it and and back to old habits, right? 301 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,800 If we take those both examples, both have a level of ownership, 302 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,640 but the first person have a very strong level of ownership that 303 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,080 they believe they can do it, they want to, they need to and 304 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,920 these are the actions and they follow through. 305 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,440 Whereas the other person could say I really want this. 306 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,800 If my family gives me the time to go to the gym, if I don't 307 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,000 have to pick up my kids, if I don't have a rough day in the 308 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,720 office, I will go to the gym. And that is neither wrong or 309 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,000 right. It's just the awareness of still 310 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,599 a level of ownership, but it's not the ownership that we need 311 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:30,480 in order to, in that example, go to the gym for five times. 312 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,200 And yeah, exactly. And and that's exactly how it 313 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,080 works with organizations as well. 314 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,120 Yes, yeah. And I think the, I think we were 315 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,280 talking about at the start of the podcast how there's a lot of 316 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,840 books on organizational change, which is generally frameworks. 317 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,000 But equally I think your book's kind of unique for me anyway and 318 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,800 definitely coming from like an IT realm perspective of change. 319 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,000 And I know that your book talks about all organizational change. 320 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,440 So I don't want to minimize that this applies. 321 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,120 It doesn't matter what kind of change it is. 322 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,400 But with basically human behavior, right? 323 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,960 You're you're you're you're you're talking about human 324 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,920 behavior. And the fact is like for 325 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,640 example, you know people talk about how to stick your diet or 326 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,880 you know how to stick to a habit. 327 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,040 I mean the word habit is is used a lot now. 328 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,400 And I I've, I've, I've read Atomic Habits which I really 329 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,160 enjoyed and it talks about the same concept you have to and 330 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,720 that's more about an individual keeping to their goals. 331 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,000 But it's the same premise that if you don't believe if you 332 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,520 don't insert it into your. If you're not structured 333 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,400 correctly, if you don't own the habit you want to change, you're 334 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,600 not going to achieve it. I think in that book even it's 335 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,920 it's very much relatable to our concept for saying maybe you 336 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,600 don't have belief for the entire end result. 337 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,920 We do have belief to make take a small step now. 338 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:54,280 So if you tune your actions and your plan to your level of 339 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,200 belief, having it small, I want to be a gym rat. 340 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,120 Let's first take a walk for 5 minutes. 341 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:01,080 I have believed that I can finish that. 342 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,000 Then sort of build on that. You get to the actual great 343 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,200 result in the end. Like I said, I think the book is 344 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,080 extremely well structured and you tell a story and you use 345 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,160 personas which which I love to highlight different 346 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:19,320 stakeholders, personalities and and provide insights effectively 347 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,320 along along the journey. So how did you come up with 348 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,680 these personas and are they based on real people and 349 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,960 experiences? Well, of course my lawyer has 350 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,880 told me not to point to the fact that it's nice. 351 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,640 I'm kidding. It's a it's it's a summary of of 352 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,320 all sorts of people. I guess we encounter in in 353 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,400 organizational change and then amp amplified, right. 354 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,280 So we we same with the title we amplify it. 355 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,760 This is the same with those characters because this is what 356 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,280 what what has creates, what will create some feature for people 357 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,720 to link into or link onto to go like, all right, so I've met a 358 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,560 person like that or I've seen a person like that, I. 359 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:01,840 Know Nick. I know, Nick. 360 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:07,200 Yeah, I think it's only fair to say it's a disclaimer as well to 361 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,720 turn the mirror towards yourself to go like we are actually in 362 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,000 some parts all three of those types as well on on any given 363 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,960 day. So it's not about picking a 364 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,240 person. So in advance we are we are 365 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,320 apologizing all the Knicks and Andy's and Nancy's in the world. 366 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:29,120 This is a generic name but we we we do we we did want to make it 367 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:32,800 as tangible as possible because we are talking about a concept, 368 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:33,800 right. So we want to make it as 369 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,240 tangible as possible. That's why I put future Acts as 370 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,640 a as a case study company into it and we put a fourth character 371 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,240 in there as well. Rowan, which I think is is, is 372 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,480 also very important, but we we do like to focus on those 3. 373 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,600 The fact, like I said in terms of when you do get a chance to 374 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,080 grab a copy of this book which is which I highly recommend, you 375 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,400 have structured the book. So you're doing the case study, 376 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,920 you've got the persona and then you make your points and it and 377 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,680 it kind of starts from ownership and then you've got kind of 378 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,600 linking to belief and and kind of linking the two together. 379 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,440 And I guess one of the what I'm amazed about is why do you think 380 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,120 there isn't ownership and belief and just project management and 381 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,920 product management and organizational change today? 382 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,400 Do you think it's there, it's just not identified as such? 383 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,160 Is that the, the hidden secret of you were to then go back and 384 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,840 look at successful projects? Do you think you'd find that 385 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,960 these were the two magical ingredients that were needed? 386 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,480 Belief as a talking point is B is neglected in any boardroom. 387 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,560 Why? Because it's it's what we call 388 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,160 like with soft skills which in fact and turns out to be be rock 389 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,240 solid hard soft. You know these soft skills tend 390 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,760 to be really hard tangible stuff in the end, but very important. 391 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,800 So believe is very important as well. 392 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,600 So if we don't, before we start an organizational change 393 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,280 initiative, we don't talk about the level of belief or we don't 394 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,080 fine tune our plans and actions to our level of belief. 395 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:08,960 That's where things go off the track. 396 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,400 So when I've seen successful change initiatives play out 397 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,520 because they are still there, there's also 1/4 of initiatives 398 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,640 that do see, do succeed. They've always started small. 399 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,520 They've always started with acknowledging the fact that they 400 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,320 are experimenting, trying something new, having a small 401 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,640 portion of belief for that, identifying what success would 402 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,400 look like. So how might we tell that this 403 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,600 thing is working for us? And then also being able to 404 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,960 change and pivot when, when, when is, when that is needed and 405 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,720 and and and stepping away, being agnostic to frameworks and roles 406 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,480 and and all that sort. It's quite interesting you sit 407 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,000 there because I mean I've been involved in start up companies, 408 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,000 you know I've got got my own. It's an interesting side 409 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,360 question around belief and whether or not it's easier. 410 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,000 Is it easy to have the belief when there's, you know, 345 of 411 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,120 you in a room working on a small, like you said, 412 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:09,000 experimenting on a new idea, which of course is fresh, And 413 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,560 usually those ideas you have to have belief to kind of spend 414 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,040 money on them or spend some time on them. 415 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,960 Do you think it's easier there? And it gets harder if you scale? 416 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:17,960 I think so, if you're being honest, right? 417 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,080 Because you have all these tiers of people having some level of 418 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:27,480 belief into it, especially once that scales up, especially when 419 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,000 you don't see the results immediately. 420 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,320 Yes. Maybe then it will be a test of 421 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,240 belief to go like, do we actually still believe this 422 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,280 stuff because now something else is happening to what we thought 423 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,200 or believed would happen? Yeah, I think that that that is 424 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,400 the case. And and why do you think, I 425 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,560 think you touched on it before a little bit like soft skills 426 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:52,480 might be too soft to talk about at the boardroom level right. 427 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,040 And now now everyone talks about it. 428 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,720 I mean it's the same as mental health or anything else. 429 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,240 But in sport for example, belief is everything in terms you know 430 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,560 and so why do you think it hasn't the the word belief? 431 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,800 Maybe you know the eastern philosophies of belief haven't 432 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,480 just not landing on the shores and New Zealand talk been talked 433 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,840 about at the boardrooms at at our big companies in New 434 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,480 Zealand. I think because the the 435 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,000 perceptional belief is that it's about religion which is the the 436 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,480 like the number one topic that people just don't like and feel 437 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,160 comfortable to talk about with people that they don't know. 438 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,640 I think in in boardrooms especially so boardrooms, 439 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,920 executive teams in the line of of like making it a little bit 440 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,880 black and white if you understand what's going on. 441 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,280 Our view of executive and boardrooms is that there is 442 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,200 often this group of very smart and intelligent people that work 443 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,720 individually to get where they are. 444 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,360 And there is a level of ego getting in there. 445 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:04,680 And that ego is often focused on I need to know all the answers, 446 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,280 I need to have a solution for all the problems, and I need to 447 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,560 have the right people to make it all happen. 448 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:18,200 Talking then about belief is for some people the same or has the 449 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:24,360 same connotation to say how do you feel today why the great 450 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,240 coaching question like how does that make you feel It's it's 451 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,080 that annoying thing because you don't want to go there and I 452 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:34,760 think that's you you mentioned it as well been with with mental 453 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,520 health. It is that paradigm switch that 454 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,280 we have to make that it is OK to talk about that. 455 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:48,200 And I think it is important to understand that belief is purely 456 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,960 the combination of your thoughts, your perceptions, your 457 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,480 your attentions, everything that makes you, you and the hard 458 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,760 thing which we touch on in the book as well. 459 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,920 Knowing now that these three elements believe driver and 460 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,760 action form your level of ownership is great. 461 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,080 Why is it still so hard? Because this is not rocket 462 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,520 science. This is definitely not us doing 463 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,720 and Harvard University degree or something like that. 464 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,200 The the part that makes it so extremely hard is that it is 465 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,040 often a complete automated process in your brain. 466 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:30,280 So your brain protects yourself from all courses and a check on 467 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,040 what is going on in your surroundings is being made in in 468 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,280 not even accountable heart of a second for for human beings. 469 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,440 So to actually change your behaviour and change your level 470 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,920 of ownership, it's not something like, oh I now need to know that 471 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,360 I need to talk about my belief and then off we go it is oh, 472 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,120 it's sometimes so hard to actually understand what you 473 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:57,520 believe because your belief is already formed before you act. 474 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:02,080 Your belief is already there before you read researches, 475 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:07,040 before you find your proof. It is it is that that I found 476 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,600 mind blowing on my on my own to to read about the fact that we 477 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,000 as human beings often think I I have no clue. 478 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,560 I'm I'm not judging anything. So I'm just going to do research 479 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,600 and base my opinion on that. And we do research based on an 480 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,800 opinion that is already there and then we find articles and 481 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,800 say oh see drinking wine every day is good for me. 482 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,560 So I can't. Exactly right. 483 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,320 Which, which is by the way. Yeah, I was going to say this is 484 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:37,600 solid. It's research on this. 485 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,240 It is, yeah. I mean it's that what what we're 486 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,440 just experiencing, you know worldwide with kind of news at 487 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,520 the moment with the fact that you know you believe something, 488 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,040 you will always find an article or or whatever or two or even 489 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,360 research and scientific facts that you've picked and choose to 490 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,520 support your own belief that's already predefined. 491 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,800 So it's difficult. Do you think it requires and I'm 492 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,360 going to jump to so solutions which is a terrible thing for 493 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:07,920 ABA to do. So forgive me, but do you think 494 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,440 we need to start accounting having an accounting method? 495 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,000 I don't mean that in terms of dollars, but I am talking about 496 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,440 the boardroom and a lot of that is just numbers on on on 497 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,120 spreadsheets for belief. Do we need to start actually 498 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:25,280 having some measurables there to know what's happening in our 499 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,360 organization? That we know that if you're not, 500 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,520 if you're not on the ship, you're not on the train? 501 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,200 Tell us why. Let us know what what your true 502 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,000 feelings are. Is it because of the individuals 503 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,800 involved? Is it because of the structure? 504 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,120 Do you think it's a bad idea? No one ever asks that. 505 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,120 Do they? They never ask. 506 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,080 Do you think this is a bad idea before we start? 507 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,600 Well, there's a whole thing to unpack there essentially, 508 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,880 especially when Nick saw the CEO in the book, right, starts 509 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,520 talking and raving on about the next silver bullet. 510 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,960 It's difficult to step up to Nick to say, listen, this is 511 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,320 very vague and a word, sell it. And I don't think this is going 512 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,880 to take us any further. So there is a bit of that 513 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,320 tension going on and potentially they believe that if I speak up 514 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,320 that my hat will get chopped off, right. 515 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,160 So I need to be smart about my career or I need to prevent 516 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,760 things from happening and then you have all sorts of biases 517 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,960 playing along. But I do think that just the 518 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,600 level saying a, do we have belief in the that this will be 519 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,040 worthwhile visiting? And two, if not, what would make 520 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,600 you believe what will be the first shoots that we can point 521 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,640 to that would be believed builders of sorts to go. 522 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,000 I think this is helping us further in the right direction 523 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,960 than where we are now. Fella you were talking about 524 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,080 almost evidence to support your own belief. 525 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,160 But I like Bartwin's point there, which is if you can take 526 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,960 an external source, say Customer insights, you're launching the 527 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,080 app and you were like, well, we don't, we, I don't believe that 528 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,040 this is going to be a success or anyone's going to want this 529 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,560 product. But one of the things about 530 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,760 using, for example, just taking it out and actually asking 531 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,040 independent people that aren't, you can start driving those data 532 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,120 points that you might need to start actually getting on the 533 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,760 train. Now, if I'm on a project, you're 534 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,920 giving advice to that one person. 535 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,840 Maybe they're a consultant, so they've got some level of clout 536 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,720 in in the project team. What would what would your 537 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,280 advice be? I would advise that person that 538 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,440 full ownership and full belief is not necessary to start moving 539 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,600 that that is 1 so you don't have to go to the 100% and then start 540 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,160 doing something. If you if you think of for 541 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,880 yourself about a situation where you can say that that is pretty 542 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,040 much a a situation in my life that I had complete ownership 543 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,480 because I was like getting through it, grinding it and and 544 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,120 the rewards came. That is often a feeling that 545 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,880 people really love. It's a feeling that they feel 546 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,960 autonomous and in control and energetic and all things that 547 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,960 happened, that having that feeling of ownership means that 548 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,720 you also feel better about yourself and what you're doing. 549 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,600 So if we then would take it into an advice, I would say start to 550 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,400 write down belief statements, which is also something we 551 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,320 mentioned in the book that are very clear sentences that start 552 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,760 with I believe and I believe that I'm capable of doing it. 553 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,080 I believe I have somebody I can ask for support. 554 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,440 Write it down. Start small, like what Bartwin 555 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,320 said. Start small. 556 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,160 Even if you don't believe everything and you cannot take 557 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,080 full ownership, there's always a certain part of belief and 558 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,720 therefore a certain level of ownership and start doing it. 559 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,520 Prove yourself that you were wrong or you were correct. 560 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,760 It doesn't really matter what it what it needs to be, but start 561 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,400 small and and focus on tuning into what you actually believe 562 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,520 and writing it down with the word. 563 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,480 I believe the believe word in the sentence is doing a magical 564 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,440 trick. Nice one and part one. 565 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,720 Yeah, I think I can only agree of course with with a statement 566 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,240 I and we have, we have tried out the belief statements with with 567 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,520 groups of people and found it to be really effective because 568 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,200 something fundamentally happens in your communication when you 569 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,240 start adding the word believe. You can say we value people some 570 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,960 of the value statements that many companies have. 571 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,120 But if you say we believe we put people at the core of our 572 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,600 business, it's a different kind of statement, it lands 573 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,400 differently for you. So I think to make it as 574 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,400 practical as possible, I would definitely start to unpack there 575 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,560 And similar to what our reference to Atomic Habits 576 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,560 before don't, you don't need to be 100% sold on the product and 577 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,160 sold on to say, listen, I need to be fully believing this thing 578 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,280 in order for it to work because that will never happen because 579 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,160 you have bad days or something will happen that you didn't 580 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,480 expect and then that whole thing starts to to crash in on itself. 581 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,840 So I think it's important to say listen, start with don't focus 582 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,400 on the plan, don't focus on the driver and the actions really 583 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,960 hone in on that belief bit. And even if you say I, I really 584 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,640 don't have belief for it. That's a valuable thing in 585 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,800 itself. Yes, just acknowledging 586 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,840 acknowledgement of your own beliefs, be them positive or 587 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,040 negative. So because yeah, I know that 588 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,280 people might, I can imagine people saying I believe this, I 589 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,480 believe this, I really just don't believe this. 590 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,320 But if you do get to that point, that first step it would be 591 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,520 sharing those non beliefs and and and talking about them. 592 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,440 Well, the the interesting thing here is essentially it is also 593 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,000 belief. There's belief for the wrong 594 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,520 outcome, yeah. Exactly right. 595 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,720 So you know, your brain is saying, listen, we are super 596 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,640 scared about this stuff. We think you might be in 597 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,280 trouble. So we're going to believe for a 598 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,920 bad outcome to keep you safe. So don't invest into this. 599 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,960 You won't get hurt. So that's an acknowledgement of 600 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,920 that baseline. And then to go, what is the what 601 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,320 would make you believe for a positive outcome? 602 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,600 Exactly right. In small increments. 603 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,280 I really like that. I mean I've been in a number of 604 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,120 maybe stand up situations or equivalence of when you're 605 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,840 sitting around and everyone's talking and you know you're 606 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,080 doing your what you do today, what are you doing tomorrow? 607 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,960 You might have someone there and they're going, oh, I just know 608 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,280 this is going to be a disaster or we're over architecting it or 609 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,400 I don't think that's a good idea or that's not going to get past 610 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,080 the minister. I mean this is literally some of 611 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,400 the conversations I'm having last week and and everyone 612 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,199 thinks it, but no one will. It will all be smoking daggers 613 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,679 exactly like conversations over the watercolor. 614 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:48,040 Like, I don't think that's a good idea. 615 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,920 Like why we, why we, why are we doing that? 616 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,120 And then maybe, depending on your relationships, that might 617 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,560 get to the program manager who should be ideally wanting to 618 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,440 hear this stuff. Well this this is. 619 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:00,880 Can I intersect that for a second because that those are 620 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,240 essentially also believe statements? 621 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,720 Yes. I don't believe this is going to 622 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:06,960 work. I'm fearful of whatever we're 623 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,240 doing here is not going to reach the mark and somehow going to 624 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:12,840 fall back on us. And it's not about sure in the 625 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,120 in the hierarchy of sorts you would like to have a leadership, 626 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,960 personal, program director, whoever, trying to get things 627 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,720 aligned, but ownership start with you. 628 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,560 So if you yourself think hang on, I'm not believing any word 629 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,640 of this actually, frankly, I'm kind of scared about what's 630 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,200 happening. I don't know what I'm supposed 631 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:29,840 to do. Then having that belief 632 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,360 statement out there is a good step to set you on your pace to 633 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,920 actual ownership and not only shit because that's the the, the 634 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,080 the two lanes that you're you're stepping into essentially. 635 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,440 Disagreements and different beliefs are are not a, are not a 636 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,320 are not a bad thing. People can't believe different 637 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,040 things. So how do you go about 638 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,040 approaching that? Say for example, bartwin, you're 639 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,200 saying, I really don't believe that this is the right course of 640 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,840 action and Marcella is the one leading us there? 641 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,800 Or has the one proposed that? How do you bartwin approach 642 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,920 Marcella and let her know your belief without, you know, 643 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,680 effectively triggering conflict? Just keep in mind I'm always 644 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,000 right, bartwin. Yeah, yeah, saying. 645 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,840 There's a lot of. Always right people. 646 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,240 Out there. So how do you manage that? 647 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,960 Yeah, that's a good question. I think this comes back to the 648 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,840 human to human interaction, right. 649 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,680 So we're talking about a situation in which a person, 650 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,600 their brain goes, I'm super scared. 651 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,160 Maybe you've seen that movie Inside out, right? 652 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,720 Where people in the brain and. And and and smashing buttons. 653 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,760 Panic, panic mode. Yes, different emotions. 654 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,200 So in that brain that person might be going like, this is so 655 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,120 scary because I'm saying the thing out loud that potentially 656 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,680 everybody is he's also thinking so A1 on one conversation would 657 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,160 work best there. So in in Agile we have these 658 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,000 retrospectives. Maybe that's a bridge too far 659 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,680 because you're in a group situation, team situation and 660 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,760 whoever has the loudest voice maybe then will be the 661 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,440 prevailing voice. So maybe it's a one-on-one 662 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,640 thing. I think if if any manager would 663 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,680 be worth their, their, their while, they would be very much 664 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,480 interested into the dynamics of their team spotting things, 665 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,720 because you will see it, right? It's not a hidden thing. 666 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,920 If people don't believe it, they will. 667 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,800 You will see it. Yeah, even their body body 668 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,800 language shows it right. So we need to step away from all 669 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,040 the frameworks and practices and stuff and tense stances of 670 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,800 leadership and la de. Let's go like human to human 671 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,360 interaction, normal communication. 672 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,320 Have a cup of coffee with somebody. 673 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,440 Approach the subject yourself if you suspect that person and not 674 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,680 believing in things like am I right to say, listen that you 675 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,520 having a hard time believing this at all. 676 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,560 Do you think there's anything in the air worthwhile now 677 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,400 especially just briefly touch upon the senior employee. 678 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,320 We are overlooking the fact that we have a gold mine, all 679 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,920 knowledge and and culture and and and smartness in these 680 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,320 senior people. So I would definitely involve 681 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,840 them to say I'm just starting up here, I need your help and 682 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,720 support to tell me where the team is actually at and what we 683 00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:17,360 are doing. Yeah, no, that's really good 684 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,320 advice. And and and Marcella, just on 685 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,440 that, that example we gave, how do you think you, you as the 686 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,440 recipient of this information of this belief, how what advice do 687 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,240 you have for those people who you know? 688 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:34,680 Bartwin is like believing something and he is trying to 689 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,720 share his inner most thoughts at a human to human level, 690 00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:40,400 one-on-one. How do you approach that as a 691 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,440 recipient? Is there something that you need 692 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,760 to switch on in your mind so you're not actively being 693 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,440 defensive? Yeah, I I think that this sounds 694 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,360 so cliche, right? Because we all know it. 695 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,960 I think it really comes down to listening. 696 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:58,520 If you do have a conversation where somebody is is expressing 697 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:05,360 their I believes and this is it, it's often comes from a negative 698 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,560 point so I believe we we won't get this done with the team. 699 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,800 I don't believe the deadline will will will work what is if 700 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,240 you're receiving that information. 701 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:22,640 What is actually quite helpful is to re rewrite the sentence of 702 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,320 I believe this won't work to AI believe it will do something. 703 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,960 So if somebody says I don't believe this will work is also 704 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,760 more related to a belief, I believe we're lacking an 705 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,600 essential skill in our team which is way more practical, way 706 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,320 more helpful, and looking from it from a positive perspective. 707 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,240 From an actionable perspective of actually to do something 708 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:49,400 about it, No, I like that. Like like the old alleged senior 709 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,520 management best senior management devices. 710 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,560 Don't bring me a problem, bring me a solution. 711 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,520 At the end of the day, I usually find from my perspective anyway, 712 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,960 talking to both of you two that when you are in those 713 00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:02,280 situations. It's passionate people. 714 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,000 Generally, people that are in our professions, they do it 715 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,160 because they're it's not. It's not the easiest of of jobs 716 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,440 or the environments we work. Absolutely not. 717 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,120 So you've always got to assume the best intentions and like you 718 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,600 said, what you're actually saying to these people is that, 719 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,240 look, we need to own this or? We'll own shit, yeah, correct. 720 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,080 That's exactly it. So it's great to have You 2 here 721 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,680 today. I've really enjoyed the chat. 722 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,080 I'm sure we can speak again about other topics that we've 723 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,360 touched on. So where can our listeners get a 724 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,280 copy of your book? Yeah, I think that's the best 725 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,680 part even of this. The book is for free, so you can 726 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,960 get it for free on our website. So our website isgetdefiant.org 727 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,040 and forward slash book. We will really enjoy your 728 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:53,440 feedback of course for you Ben but also of the dear listener on 729 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,360 on this topic because we are we're obviously very 730 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,480 enthusiastic about it but we think it's also critical to 731 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,080 avoid some of the mess or a lot of the mess essentially we see 732 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,640 in organizations and that's the the serious note on this that 733 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,960 it's it's it's affecting people essentially in their work doing 734 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,520 the stuff that they like to do when applying the talents and 735 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,040 being bogged down with endless silver bullet frameworks and and 736 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,200 mishmash of sorts that that that would just end up fatiguing them 737 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,240 and causing burnout and very very serious stuff. 738 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,080 So we we would love for this to be a a topic that would be 739 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,560 addressed by by companies. Of course they can reach out to 740 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,520 Defiant to to get some help getting started on that. 741 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,240 But if if the topic itself would just be addressed that would be 742 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:44,680 great. And if I may add a little 743 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,000 challenge to the listener. Yeah we're talking about believe 744 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,640 and maybe a bit abstract concept but the challenge is little game 745 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,000 I would like to put forward is have a listen if you're 746 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,280 communicating with people at work how many times they use the 747 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,920 word believe in their actual communication and what they're 748 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,640 saying. I'll believe it when I see it. 749 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,400 Or can you give me a few examples of what you are 750 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,440 proposing is essentially saying I'm having trouble believing 751 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,240 what you're saying something tangible in order for me to make 752 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:16,760 it to make me believe essentially. 753 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,600 So it will be an interesting just have a listen in and and 754 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,560 see if you can spot the the amount of times the word believe 755 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,200 is actually used. So do you hear the challenge? 756 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,120 There, listener, we've got Believe Bingo Challenge for this 757 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,520 week, yeah. Yeah, yeah, Which is. 758 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:32,240 Why not? It's a. 759 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:33,520 Really, really really great idea. 760 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,640 And I think it's like you said, acknowledging that the word may 761 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,400 not be used, but that's what people are actually talking 762 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,480 about. Exactly lovely to. 763 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,960 Speak to both you too. And hope to see you again really 764 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,400 soon. Awesome. 765 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,640 Thank you so much Ben. It was. 766 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:47,240 Really cool. Thank you. 767 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:48,280 See you. Bye. 768 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:49,160 Bye.