1 00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:24,220 Hello and welcome to Run Till You're Done. 2 00:00:24,620 --> 00:00:28,020 Today we have the owner of Physio Effects in Glasgow. 3 00:00:28,140 --> 00:00:31,420 As well as having an incredible running resume of his own. 4 00:00:31,900 --> 00:00:34,820 We will be chatting tonight about his running achievements, 5 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:37,620 looking after the running community with their injuries 6 00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:41,560 and prevention, as well as being possibly one of the most active 7 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,360 dads in the East End of Glasgow. Welcome to the show, Johnny 8 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,720 Kilpatrick. Thanks guys. 9 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,160 What an intro. I'm excited to talk to you here. 10 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,800 So the first question that we ask every guest is how did you 11 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:04,519 first get into running? I'm an unlikely runner if you 12 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:07,000 look at the sports that they growing up never enjoyed 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,000 running. When I moved to New Zealand and 14 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,280 Australia back in 2008, you used the good weather to best effect 15 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,200 and got out at lunchtime and just did a bit of a jog most 16 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,080 days. So quite liked it then. 17 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,560 But then when I moved back to Scotland, moved away from it and 18 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,200 gravitated into CrossFit. Where I really enjoyed the 19 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,320 weights and and that side of things and ended up blooming up 20 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:36,320 to like 97 kilos and shifting fair bit of weight about. 21 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,680 But the honest answer where I'm getting to is actually I got 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,520 into running off the back of a drunken bet with another 23 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Crossfitter on New Year's Eve of 2015. 24 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,280 So my words not his. Andy suggested I could never get 25 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:59,800 my muscular glutes around an Ultra course and yeah, a few too 26 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,080 many whiskeys in the hand went out and he nominated the Devil. 27 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:08,440 So 2016, the Devil of the Highlands was my first Ultra. 28 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,960 And of course I'd have, I don't know, sheer belligerence and 29 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,240 arrogance. I don't think I actually trained 30 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,600 for that any more than what I was doing anyway, of the 31 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,800 CrossFit. So there was a few 5 KS etcetera 32 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,360 going in over the course of the week. 33 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:27,400 But yeah, never really knew much about running training or 34 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,880 anything and somehow growing my way around that. 35 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:37,520 So do you go straight into like normally the progression is 5K, 36 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,600 half marathon, marathon and then ultra? 37 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,520 Do you go straight into the devil? 38 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,880 Was that the first race that you've done? 39 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:48,080 It was, yeah. For for listeners, if you don't 40 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,000 know, the devil being the Devil of the Highlands, the 41 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,920 second-half of the West Highland Way. 42 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,160 And for for what it's worth, grossly under prepared but 43 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,760 actually really enjoyed it and it got under my skin for a few 44 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,280 reasons. And how did you get on with that 45 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,320 race? What was the weather like that 46 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,080 day? I am thinking back, it's fairly 47 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,600 unremarkable. I do look at the pictures and 48 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,120 think I was quite overdressed for the occasion, you know, 49 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,920 multiple buffs and long layers and, you know, never wear that 50 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:24,760 now. But, you know, that was all the 51 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,200 rage back then. I guess I did OK. 52 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,520 Actually, I finished it, which was the main goal. 53 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,000 And yeah, and Andy that had made the bet with he was also doing 54 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,360 the race. And ironically, as times went 55 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,320 by, he's only doing CrossFit and weightlifting and I'm only doing 56 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,360 ultra running. So we've kind of changed lanes, 57 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,200 but on the event itself, you know, I can't tell you how happy 58 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,040 I was to come up over the top of the Devil's Staircase like a 59 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:52,840 burst couch myself. But the sea. 60 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,800 Andy sat on the grass with cramp and I was able to ask him if he 61 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,960 needed the hand with that. And most importantly, did you 62 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,120 get to the finish before? I didn't. 63 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,960 He had a yeah, he had a good last section, but we came down 64 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,480 and became lock leaving together. 65 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,120 And this is funny, thinking back to it now, in all my wisdom, 66 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:16,920 being the Crossfitter, it was back then. 67 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,320 One of the things I don't know if you've came across it was 68 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,600 Voodoo floss. You ever heard of that? 69 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,520 It's essentially essentially a rubber band that we'd all used 70 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,680 to kind of release sort of my fascial adhesions in the leg. 71 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,840 And you'd put it on you really tight, like a tourniquet and do 72 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,360 a whole pile of squats and lunges and stuff. 73 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,680 And it did actually really make it feel like a free job a lot, 74 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,080 you know, pre workout. So my my game plan was to hit 75 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,600 Kinloch leaving and do a whole pile of voodoo flossing. 76 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,760 So got to the back of a car stuck on this really tight 77 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,440 tourniquet and my quads and started doing loads of squats 78 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,400 and lunges. And 10 minutes later tried to 79 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,320 get onto the last section and realized that now I pretty much 80 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:04,000 couldn't run at all. But yeah, so Andy, yeah, he sort 81 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,720 of left me on the last section, but on the last section of that 82 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,440 race, and this is where I think it all got under my skin a bit 83 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,320 and coming through the lark more, I remember thinking, 84 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,800 right, physio, brain, get your form sorted out here. 85 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,440 You know, shoulders back, you chip away at this, you're on the 86 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,720 last section. And then, sorry mum if she 87 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,440 listens to this, three ladies that looked about the age of my 88 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:34,160 mum came past me and told me I was doing really well, which 89 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,720 which was nice. But then I thought, right, 90 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,240 Johnny, this is your moment. You know, you can't, you need to 91 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,080 take them over, get past them again. 92 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,480 So I tried with everything I had and they just kept getting 93 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,640 further away from me until they're out of site. 94 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,480 And then about another like half an hour later, I rounded a 95 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,680 corner and they were sat. I think one of their husbands 96 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,000 had came up and delivered them tea at Lundavra. 97 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,240 And as I was going past, there was a lot of whooping and you're 98 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,240 going to do this. And so I thought in that moment, 99 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,560 right, I'm going back to this and training properly. 100 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,200 And so that's where I started. How did you go back? 101 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:21,200 So, so I gave it a break in 2017 because our daughter Aria was 102 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,520 born. But they'd actually start a wee 103 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,760 bit of running then and just recognized that, you know, 90 104 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,880 odd kilos is far too heavy for this sort of distance, 105 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,320 especially, you know, if you're not regularly running. 106 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,600 So got the weight down and hired a running coach. 107 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,080 So Neil Mcnichol of Run Recover, who's a really good mate now. 108 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,720 And Neil got me into shape for 2018 where I did the Fling, the 109 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,520 West Highland Way race and the Devil that year. 110 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,480 So there was some good improvements. 111 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:01,440 And you're since the devil. You went through plenty of other 112 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,120 races recently. It's been the lakes traverse. 113 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,840 Tell us how you got on in that. So the Lakes Traverse was, yeah, 114 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,280 just about 10 days ago. It was a sort of curiosity race 115 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:16,880 for me. I'd never heard much about it. 116 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,120 And I love the Lake District. We've as a family gravitated 117 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,320 down to there in the last few years. 118 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,520 We're there every other weekend really, with the camper fan and 119 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,000 yeah, I just thought it looked a cool route going from the West 120 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,200 Coast right across it to the East Coast. 121 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:36,280 And yeah, she and only runs it and he's got plenty of other 122 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,480 events that are popular. So it was, yeah, it appealed. 123 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:47,520 Starts in some B's, goes to shop and I guess my race went well. 124 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:52,320 I got my best ever finish but I was forced to work hard for that 125 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:59,520 which was my own fault. How did you your training 126 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,560 leading up to that? How how was that? 127 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,720 How? How do you think being a physio 128 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,360 changes the way you train? So my training was different 129 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,960 this time going into Lake's Traverse. 130 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,000 So up until the start of this year, I've been consistently 131 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,280 trained by Neil and I decided to, as I'm coaching myself these 132 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,560 days, to coach myself from the start of January. 133 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,120 Nothing to do with his training, like there's no other coach. 134 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,440 I recommend more. It was just I wanted to try a 135 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,400 slightly different Norwegian style of training that I think 136 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,000 would be more applicable to ultra running than the sort of 137 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,320 more conventional stuff that we've all been doing. 138 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,360 And it was too hard to have somebody else trained double 139 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,800 threshold days for you and they don't know your schedule. 140 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,680 So training was very different this year. 141 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:53,280 It was very intense, but it worked a treat. 142 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,520 I've never felt better on her race and had a really strong 143 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,040 finish so. Norwegian style. 144 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,360 I think you were going to ask what I was going to ask as well 145 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,640 there mate. What is Norwegian style training 146 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,680 as opposed to conventional? OK, so Norwegian style, everyone 147 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:13,400 will have heard of, you know, the Yaka Binga Brixon and the 148 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,560 Inga Brixon's. They didn't develop it, but 149 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:20,920 they're probably the most famous, I guess like athletes do 150 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,720 doing it at the minute as well as a few of the top iron men. 151 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,960 But the take home headline is it's actually double threshold 152 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,840 days twice a week, but they do their thresholds sessions a 153 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,520 little different than most say marathon runners. 154 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,800 So I looked at like how they were calibrating that. 155 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,480 Now they normally use lactate threshold testing, so like blood 156 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,800 samples between intervals to keep it like below a level that 157 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,240 you can't really come back from where the horse bolts. 158 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,120 That's not practical for me or most people. 159 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,000 So like I sort of gauged what pieces they were going at and 160 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:01,160 for their intervals, which would be more like half marathon, 10K 161 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,480 and marathon piece. But what it allowed me to do was 162 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,480 accumulate like probably with hindsight, triple, maybe 163 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,920 quadruple the amount of faster running that it was managing 164 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,120 without actually feeling any tireder. 165 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,120 And yeah, that compounded up over the 12 week block. 166 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,240 And so I would do a double threshold day on a Tuesday, and 167 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,520 then on a Thursday I'd doom a double threshold session in a 2 168 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,960 hour plus trail session, which might look like, you know, 10 * 169 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,440 1 minute uphill. And then later on in the session 170 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,360 you might be doing like 8 minutes on, 4 minutes off times 171 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,960 4, but all on trail in your long run at the weekend and your easy 172 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,720 runs between. Nikki was doing me an injustice 173 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,040 so tell her off. I knew exactly what the 174 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,640 Norwegian style is or method. What I was actually going to say 175 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,800 was the normally base it on long distance track events, which is 176 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,840 what 1500 meters. So that's obviously different 177 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,160 than the ultra distance which you're talking thirty, 100 miles 178 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,080 something. Do you think it applies as much? 179 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,880 Well, you're obviously you just said how you've changed it. 180 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,640 Can you think of other things you change? 181 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:31,920 Going into the next block for Lakeland 50, which is sort of my 182 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,360 big race of the year, I'm going to do much the same training, 183 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,280 but I'm going to make my first of the two threshold sessions 184 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,080 much longer. So rather than doing something 185 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,800 along the lines of like, you know, 6 * 6 minutes with one 186 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,920 minute between, it's going to be more like 3 * 18 minutes at 187 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,880 maybe like marathon pace on a hill with two minutes between. 188 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,880 And just try to like make the duration longer of these 189 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,760 intervals, but maybe the intensity slightly less and just 190 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,840 get more tolerance to that. And a lot of people they say run 191 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:15,440 your slow runs slow. Do you think that you with doing 192 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,320 double thresholds you need to run the even slower or take more 193 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,880 rest days? I felt the tolerated running my 194 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,200 slow runs at my normal pace better than I normally do. 195 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,000 Then if if I did a normal like conventional threshold session 196 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,680 where I'd be like sub 5K pace, I'd often feel a bit burst for 197 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:41,440 days or like just just on the edge of a like an eagle. 198 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,960 So like it felt like my load management needed to be 199 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,680 addressed there otherwise I spun myself into a problem. 200 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:52,920 But with this style in this block, I just didn't get any 201 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,640 niggles at all and I got a much higher volume and intensity of 202 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:02,400 training over the 12 weeks. But when you set out at the 203 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,600 start of this block, was the main goal to win or to podium? 204 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,960 No, no, I'd never. I'd never have that goal and I 205 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,520 still don't really consider myself a competitive runner and 206 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,600 don't think I ever will. I don't know why, but yeah, it's 207 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,000 more it's more of a like a hobby that I just love the structure 208 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,360 and the discipline of. So yeah, I just get out there 209 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,880 and try and sort of do the blocker. 210 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,600 Like all the sacrifices have made with the training and I 211 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,640 need to do that justice because it comes at the consequence of, 212 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:36,080 you know, dragging the family around and things like that. 213 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,360 So. During the event, when you're 214 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,040 going from checkpoint to checkpoint, were you aware of 215 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,240 where you are, where you were in the field, and if you were 216 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,040 higher up in the fields early on, and I'm guessing, I'm hoping 217 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,600 you'll talk us through the race, did that change your psychology 218 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:00,920 as to push, push yourself? No, I wouldn't say so. 219 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,320 I the only time I sort of knew where I was in the field was I 220 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,680 ran through Harnister, which thinks about 28 miles or so in 221 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:15,040 and Neil Mcnichol, him and Matt were at Harnister. 222 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,840 So Neil said I was like 10 minutes behind the leaders at 223 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,640 that point, which I knew then must be rightly up the field so. 224 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,520 But yeah, not not so long after. That was where it all actually 225 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,920 went wrong for me on the race, briefly. 226 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,320 So I charged down the hill from Harnister and it's quite 227 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,000 organized for the next checkpoint or so of thought. 228 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,560 Had my powder in my water and our powder in my bottles. 229 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,040 My next sections food in my belt and was following a GPX. 230 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,680 Unbeknown to me that was last year's GPX so I guess I've 231 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,760 missed something in the previous emails and so on. 232 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,840 Turns out it did actually download the right GPX, but I 233 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,640 had two of them in my watch that were both labeled the same thing 234 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,480 and had no idea that course had changed. 235 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,960 So I was charging down into like we sort of village knowing the 236 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,480 checkpoint would be there. And in the GPX I could see a wee 237 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,880 teal that came off it, which turns out was to the school in 238 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,720 that village. But as I got down to the school, 239 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,920 there's it was shut up then went on to like where the buildings 240 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,760 were and there was no checkpoint there either. 241 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,800 So just continued following my GPX and realized it was on the 242 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:29,120 next section over to Grassmere that, and I thought I don't 243 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,160 really need water here, I'll get it on the course. 244 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,640 But it just occurred to me I'll get disqualified if I don't hit 245 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,960 the checkpoint. So I had the backtrack and Long 246 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:41,160 story short, I listened to a few locals who had some suggestions 247 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,560 that yeah, they, they, if there's a, if there's any race 248 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,760 or any checkpoint, it'll have to be over here. 249 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,840 So half a mile over that way, no checkpoint back to my GPX line 250 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,480 for I looked at my Strava. I added about four miles and 40 251 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,360 minutes on looking for it because it turns out the 252 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,920 checkpoint was in a different village and I'd asked. 253 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,520 Turns out Kim Collision and one of his friends were running 254 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,120 past, so I recognized who Kim was and thought he might know. 255 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,280 So he's pointed me kindly back in the right direction and I 256 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,040 bumped into the first lady at that point. 257 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,520 So just kind of latched on to her until I could get to that 258 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,920 checkpoint. And they told me I was on the 259 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,840 wrong GPX. And it did turn out there was no 260 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,920 phone signal in the Langdale Valley either. 261 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,600 I did. I did have a look there. 262 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,040 So Race control was trying to give me a call as well. 263 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,760 But yeah. How did that affect you 264 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,920 psychologically? Thinking there is no checkpoint, 265 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,000 I'm losing 40 minutes. Yeah. 266 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,640 In the moment, it was more just, yeah, you felt that sort of 267 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,000 stress of getting back on course and like you're losing places, 268 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,000 possession time. But ultimately, once I got to 269 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,320 the checkpoint, I just felt like, well, I've done a lot of 270 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,440 these things. I've went longer than this. 271 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,000 There's 30 miles left. I'm really well prepared for 272 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,000 this race. I actually feel good. 273 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,280 And, and they told me, I think at that point it was maybe 10th. 274 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,720 And I thought, well, I'll get back into the top five. 275 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,319 I'm pretty confident to that. And and heat adapted and it's a 276 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,160 really hot day. So yeah, just go through the 277 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,040 process of what you would have done anyway and just, yeah, make 278 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,040 it count. Now own it. 279 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:34,440 What an absolute comeback. And you said that you had 280 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,520 powders and food in your belt. What were you eating during the 281 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,520 race? So. 282 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,600 I had a plan. I was going to be between about 283 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,920 95 grams of carbs an hour and that was a mix of a few 284 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,560 different sources. So the powder I was using was 285 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,840 Voom and I've got a like half a mix, half their natural flavour, 286 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,840 like 30 grams of that and 30 grams of their apple and 287 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,800 blackcurrant because I don't like each flavour enough to do 288 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,520 60 grams in a 500 mil bottle and add a wee bit of extra sodium to 289 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,600 that. So that gives me a good 60 grams 290 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,640 of carbs in the bottles. And then it's just a mixture of 291 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,040 gels. So you know, I'm quite partial 292 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,720 of the Torque Energy gels and I like to sort of alternate 293 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,760 between they've got rhubarb and custard, which is quite tart. 294 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,640 And then the next Torque gel I'll have will be like a 295 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,840 strawberry yogurt, which is really sweet. 296 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,720 So I just like the contrast of that. 297 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,960 And then just one of the secret weapons always have for 298 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:37,480 training. But it doesn't seem to work out 299 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,800 for me on the race because it's got a wee bit of chocolate in it 300 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,840 is a Turkish Delights, just they're cheap and cheerful, 38 301 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,320 grams of carbs and through a winter training block, you're 302 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,960 hoofing them India. But yeah, you don't seem to feel 303 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,040 like them the same way on a race because of the wee bit of 304 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,920 chocolate. But yeah, that went really well 305 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,520 actually. Like, I felt no stomach issues 306 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,800 at all. I was probably more like, yeah, 307 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,800 closer to 100 grams of carbs by the time went down to that 308 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,640 checkpoint. And then the problem was I 309 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,080 didn't eat or drink a single thing for about an hour until I 310 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,160 got myself sorted. So then when I was coming up out 311 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:20,280 of Grassmere, I threw a 50 gram carb gel into me on the climb, 312 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,920 which is what I had planned to do, but it was quite a thick gel 313 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,480 and it would have needed a lot of water. 314 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,440 And then from that point on I just had five hours of gut bombs 315 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,400 the whole way over were just this stomach was nearly doubling 316 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,600 you over. But every time that settled 317 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,760 after about 20 minutes I had to get more carbs into me and it 318 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,520 just started over again. So it was just a real battle of 319 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:48,160 attrition to the end, but. And then when you came to the 320 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,840 end of the race and you'd realized that was where you'd 321 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,000 come third, How how did that feel? 322 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,960 When did you realize you were third? 323 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,880 I suspected I was. I only knew I was third. 324 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:05,120 About 500 meters from the end, some guy shouted it at me. 325 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,000 But I did pass him a young guy who he was flying in the race, 326 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,520 the guy Lewis bonus, I think his name was early 20s. 327 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,680 And I think just unfortunately for Lewis is his race was a wee 328 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,800 bit too long for him. He'd had got issues and just 329 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,200 passed him about maybe 5K from the end where he was walking in 330 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,520 the woods. So just checked he was all 331 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,360 right. And to be honest, yeah, it's a 332 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:33,400 shame for him. And I didn't take a lot of joy 333 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,960 out of passing someone in that in that condition. 334 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,120 But he ended up finishing fifth. And yeah, I see he's on the the 335 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:47,480 start line of the Lakeland 50s. So I'm sure he'll, yeah, he'll, 336 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,480 he'll, he'll show me how fast he is because I think he's got a 337 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,800 big future. And is that your? 338 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,680 You say that. The the race that you've just 339 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,720 done, is that your favorite race or was it your first race? 340 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,000 The the the lakes reverse my favorite race. 341 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,560 Mike is like without a doubt, it's either of the Lakeland. 342 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,960 So the 50 or the 100. I've done each event twice, but 343 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,800 just the the event. It's hard to describe if you 344 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,200 haven't done it. It's like it's like a festival. 345 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,040 It's just, yeah, I think you've nearly 3000 people on the course 346 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,880 and they're all camping at the school in Coniston and it's just 347 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,160 brilliant, the roots, great. It's the hundreds of different 348 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,200 beasts all together from the 50. It's very challenging, but yeah, 349 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,760 I just love it. And my daughter Arya, she's 350 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,840 she's now got friends that she sees every year at Lakeland and 351 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,440 she's done the Lakeland 1/5 times. 352 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,640 Mariam's done the 100. That's my wife, done the hundred 353 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,240 once and the 50 once. So yeah, it's brilliant. 354 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,200 I've done both the 50 and the 100 and I've volunteered twice 355 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:00,200 so I technically haven't paid for the place because if you 356 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,400 volunteer you get a free place next year. 357 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,320 Oh that, that's my plan from here out. 358 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,800 Mike emulate Neil, my my mate and old running coach, for he 359 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,560 seems to have went a good few years without paying for a place 360 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,960 because he keeps podiuming or winning the age categories. 361 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,680 Rubber Scotsman. Absolutely, Absolutely. 362 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,880 And you mentioned the family there, Johnny, you've, you're 363 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,800 all very, very active. How do you manage to keep each 364 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,960 other's plans in check and arrange childcare around the 365 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,480 family? Life that that seems to flow OK 366 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,160 for us. I'm sort of co-owner in the 367 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,680 business that we both work in and there's a lot of flexibility 368 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,120 then with how we, you know, organise our Diaries that way. 369 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,200 And then because Mariam's into it and like we're both 370 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,120 passionate about it and love the outdoors. 371 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,280 We just we just make make it work for each other. 372 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,160 Try usually not to have races at the same time. 373 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,080 But now Ari is a bit older, it doesn't matter as much. 374 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,160 You know Miriam doesn't work Friday so she can get her long 375 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:13,880 run and then. And you say you're a physio. 376 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,240 How do you find that? Does that help with injuries? 377 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,680 And you're saying your wife, do you help each other with 378 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,960 injuries? We can do, yeah. 379 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,320 I guess prevention is better than cure. 380 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,080 So I think we're both quite good at just navigating that as we go 381 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,160 along. And my specialism within the 382 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,600 professions actually sports physiotherapy and then like a 383 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,520 clinical interest in running. So if I can't get it right, I 384 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,120 think, yeah, there's something wrong with me advising other 385 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,600 people on it. So it's just it's making the 386 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,400 right decisions at the right time and just looking at load 387 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,080 management and that that's progressive overload in terms of 388 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,000 peaking for an event, but also like decreasing the load and 389 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,840 having the restraint when needed. 390 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,480 You know, we're all addicted to running. 391 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,120 And just personally, I think the mental toughness that's required 392 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,160 for these ultras is actually in the training and having that 393 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,640 restraint and not going out for a hard session when you've had a 394 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,920 niggle a few days in a row. It's just that stitch and times. 395 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,600 He has nine, you know. And one thing that I saw on your 396 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,720 website was something that I've never had before. 397 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,160 I'm going to ask about it. Dry needling? 398 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,400 Is that as horrific as it sounds? 399 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,040 Yeah, it's trigger point acupuncture. 400 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:42,080 So it's a probably a Western take on Eastern acupuncture, but 401 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,160 yeah, trigger points in the muscles. 402 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,440 So you're eliciting a local twitch response with the 403 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,320 acupuncture needle. It's really effective just when 404 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,560 there's a bit of overload in the muscles and they're just, you 405 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,880 know, a bit tight in the icky. I find it definitely works 406 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:02,280 better than just massage alone. I've had acupuncture twice, many 407 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,760 many years ago, but I found that it was a great painkiller. 408 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,080 Pain went instantly but as soon as I started doing the thing 409 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,840 that was causing the injury in the 1st place, it came back. 410 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,040 That might have been because it was a like it treated the 411 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,320 symptoms, which is what it's definitely useful for that. 412 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,000 But let's take a runner for example. 413 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,560 It's always more useful to address the the root problem. 414 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,200 So like I'm very big on like part of the business I run as 415 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,400 the Glasgow running Clinic and we do running technique 416 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,440 analysis, take that into account with people's injury history and 417 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,040 look at the running style. I firmly believe like if they 418 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,280 keep getting similar injuries and they're planning and sort of 419 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:53,800 like the plan they're following for an events, reasonably 420 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,280 sensible and they're reasonably fit, there's maybe something in 421 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,560 their technique that's overloading certain structures. 422 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,240 So we try to fix that and get them kind of like patterning 423 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,000 that and working on it in their training to fix the problem. 424 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,160 And there's someone where to about to start a new training 425 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,960 block as the run in clinic, Something you would advise 426 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,000 attending before getting stuck into that? 427 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,480 Yeah, I'm biased. I definitely would. 428 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,840 But I think it's there's loads of other sports out there that 429 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,000 like you go and get coaching before doing and you're running, 430 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,560 you're accumulating 10s of thousands of steps on every 431 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,320 single run with multiple times your body weight impact. 432 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,240 Now, if that's applied in the wrong sort of lines of force 433 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,680 structures getting overloaded and it's not a one-size-fits-all 434 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,880 either. So it's just, yeah, it's a very 435 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,200 bespoke thing. So I, I, I would suggest it's 436 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,440 good for everyone to be honest. And it's, you can go away from 437 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,320 the session. Your worst case scenario is I 438 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,920 tell you you're running great. Otherwise you're getting 439 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,360 softened to work on that's going to better you better you're 440 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:07,400 running in terms of injury prevalence and I guess like 441 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,720 efficiency and performance in the long run because you'll 442 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:15,640 accumulate more volume. That's definitely good to know. 443 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:18,800 And the clinic, Aside from the running clinic and the 444 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,080 physiotherapy, do you offer any other services? 445 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,040 We do, yeah. So Danny, my business partner 446 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,920 and I, we're both like specialists in sports 447 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,280 physiotherapy. We've done sort of university 448 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,800 masters level stuff there. And then the 2 girls that work 449 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,320 for us as physios, they're both specialists in Women's Health. 450 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:45,320 So that's a very, yeah, it's a, it's a very niche kind of 451 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,560 service that we offer that you, you don't see too many places. 452 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,560 And yeah, there's a there's a big need for it. 453 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,720 And going back to Lakes Traverse again possibly. 454 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,120 What is your biggest running achievement? 455 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,760 The lake, the lakes traverse probably wouldn't say is my 456 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,000 biggest, it's my best finish, but I just feel in a lot better 457 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,560 shape than it was a few years ago. 458 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,440 And like experience rode me through that and I had the 459 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,400 confidence to fall back on a really good training block. 460 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,720 And as I said, there was a few extra 1%. 461 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,200 They're like I did like 9 days of heat adoption before the 462 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,560 event and by luck it also turned out to be hot so I knew I'd 463 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,080 finished well on the back end of it. 464 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,200 My biggest achievements probably either the West Highland Way 465 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:43,280 race in 2018 or the Lakeland 120 nineteen, both. 466 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,920 I ended up with just like major issues on which were below the 467 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,280 knee at West Highland Way. I pulled my calf on the lock 468 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,000 side which just tightened it up. I could sort of limp run through 469 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,400 it, but yeah, that was a long way out to finish from. 470 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:04,000 But Lakeland 120 nineteen was a really wet year and I would say 471 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,840 it's a significantly harder race, as you'll know Mike. 472 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,960 And yeah, I rolled an ankle coming off the well, actually 473 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,560 the first bit of flat trailer got onto after the Mountain 474 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,560 Passover and from Black Seal Hut to Buttermere. 475 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,000 And then that was a bit limp, running for about 10 miles, 476 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,560 followed by me then snapping a running pole, which meant it was 477 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,280 down to no poles. And then at about 40 miles into 478 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,120 that, I'd never heard a trench foot in my life. 479 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,840 The trench foot kicked in and I wondered why I had a blister on 480 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,640 both feet. I've never had that before. 481 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,040 And that eventually developed into like the whole foot feeling 482 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,760 like a blister. Where for maybe the next 16 483 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,320 hours, every, every single step on both feet felt like the skin 484 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,720 was fully parted. So yeah, that that was a real 485 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,680 battle of attrition to finish that one out. 486 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,240 So I was proud of that. Finish and during West highland 487 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,520 way during the West highland way do you remember what color of 488 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,200 Jelly baby you got on Jelly baby hill I. 489 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,880 Can't say I do. I don't even know if I did have 490 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,080 one. I was, I was the person handing 491 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,280 them out. So that's why good stuff. 492 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,640 Yeah. So we actually have a listener 493 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,520 question for you as well, Johnny that followed you on the Lakes 494 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,920 traverse and they are actually interested to know off of the 495 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,880 back of coming third from that, would you consider doing a road 496 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:42,000 marathon or a flatter ultra? I would one of one of my goal 497 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,600 races in the next few years if I can move out with like races in 498 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,800 the UK would actually be the Comrades in South Africa, which 499 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,200 is 100K on road. I'd love to do that. 500 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,480 I'd love to go to a city marathon as well and just like, 501 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,520 you know, put in a good performance. 502 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,040 But at the minute I'm just, I'm just too interested in getting 503 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,920 into the outdoors and spent my weekends on trails and mountain 504 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,680 walking with the girls and so on. 505 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,240 So I can't see it in the next year or two. 506 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,520 Comrades is obviously going to need heat adaption, which you 507 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,240 said you have done before. What do you do for that? 508 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,640 So when I start my taper, I've done this on the last three 509 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,760 races, which like each race has felt like I had a better result 510 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,480 through training consistency. But I do think it's helped in 511 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,680 all of them actually. So Lakeland 100, Lakeland 50 and 512 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,840 now leaks traverse. So when I go on the taper about 513 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,640 two weeks out, I'll do 9 days in a row of basically one way or 514 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,800 the other profuse sweating for over an hour. 515 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:51,320 So the three, the three things I'll use are tend to be might go 516 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,280 to a gym and that's got a sauna and do maybe 30 minutes of fast 517 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,320 uphill walking. Just get a good sweat on 518 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,000 straight down to 30 minutes in the sauna, keeping the heart 519 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,160 rate high. May use the spin bike in the 520 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,000 house where I'm dressed for like, you know, a winter 6000 521 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,760 meter peak and do like 30 minutes easy on that. 522 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,360 Just say getting a good sweat on and a really hot bath for 30 523 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,240 minutes or just get out and do maybe an hour's running but with 524 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,360 like hot gloves, 4 layers in the top, two of which are non 525 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,600 breathable. Such as like, you know, cheap 526 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,720 waterproofs and then winter tracksuit bottoms and just yeah, 527 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,200 grind that out. Good on you, because that is not 528 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,720 for me. Do you know the beauty of it, 529 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,480 Nikki is I've had on all three races I've done a moment where 530 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,880 I've thought none of this is even close to any one of those 531 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,680 sessions I did on my taper because they're all absolutely 532 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,200 awful. It feels like the equivalent PN 533 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,440 of doing like a 5K for APB effort every single day for the 534 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,520 1st 9 days of your taper. So you can't. 535 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,520 You know I could be bad for left immune devices on a taper with 536 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,080 decreased volume. I'd be needle and quads one 537 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,080 night, needle and glutes the next, foam rolling. 538 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,960 You know you're looking for problems, so you don't have time 539 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,200 to think about that. And then you find yourself at 540 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,440 the race. Do you think that the the heat 541 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,040 adoption is actually like your taper, You're supposed to be 542 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,400 recovering so that you can put in a hard effort and race? 543 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:32,000 Do you think the heat adoption, do you would you possibly do too 544 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,680 much of it or is it is it more beneficial that you've done it 545 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,680 rather than how much it takes out of you? 546 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,000 I think you need to do it well. Like I've read around the topic 547 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,880 a lot so I am hydrating furiously between sessions, all 548 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,080 with electrolytes and so on. But yeah, you could, you could 549 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,920 make it quite detrimental. Like on one of my blocks, I 550 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,280 think I gave myself heat stroke twice in the 9 days, but mild 551 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,280 heat stroke and that was just a bit much. 552 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,520 But it felt fairly non consequential in the end. 553 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,680 And because I had good races and bounced back from it, because I 554 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,560 leave a clear three to four days before the race, you know, with 555 00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:15,440 none of it going on. But the physiological benefits 556 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,880 of it, even if the race wasn't hot or massive, you get a 557 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:24,159 increase in plasma volume. I think six to seven days is 558 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:28,080 enough to increase it by about 20%, which is huge because 559 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,880 that's going to be an increased stroke volume on every 560 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,600 heartbeat. It's going to cool you quicker. 561 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,760 At the periphery, your sweat rate increases markedly and 562 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,080 you'll notice that about halfway through it you are absolutely 563 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,159 dripping sweat. It's, it's just ridiculous, but 564 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,520 it's a really watery sweat. And within that the sodium, 565 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,120 well, the electrolyte concentration decreases 566 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,320 massively as well. So you're actually sweating more 567 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,880 and losing less electrolytes per volume of sweat. 568 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,480 So, you know, one of the biggest reasons an athlete will 569 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,680 underperform is that they actually overheat, and that will 570 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,280 dictate skyrocketing heart rate and so on and so forth. 571 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,960 Part of the so a sauna theory that the Swedish and Russians do 572 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,600 is you have your sauna, but then you have a jungle shower or a 573 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,160 ice bath afterwards. You do that. 574 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:24,640 I don't yeah, it's don't have the facility there where I do 575 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,680 it. But also I'm a wee bit 576 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,520 apprehensive with the the the hot cold contrast. 577 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,040 Just I'm not sure it's true, but I've read somewhere about like 578 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,360 athletes being a wee bit more prone to atrial fibrillation 579 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,360 with it. So I don't know if that's true 580 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,520 or not, but I don't really want to do it either so. 581 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,040 But since your first ultra of the devil on a bet with a 582 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,600 friend, you've clearly came so far. 583 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,000 And the last nine years, why do you run still? 584 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,880 I just love being outdoors and it's like, it's a good structure 585 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,160 of getting that. And you know, the type of races 586 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,000 that I'm doing just, yeah, takes us in the campervan as a family 587 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,200 down to the lakes or up into Scotland. 588 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,200 And yeah, it's, it's pretty much just that. 589 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,240 It's the, it's the structure in the discipline of it. 590 00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:23,160 I thrive. I think when I do have that and 591 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,640 I'm quite ambitious with stuff. I sort of, I like to have a plan 592 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,440 from a long way out and I don't know, it hurts. 593 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,600 Some guy did 100 Iron Man in 100 days and he, he used a phrase 594 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,760 that I really liked. It was like macro patience, 595 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,760 micro speed. We're just, you've got a big 596 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,800 overarching goal that you can't achieve now, but like every 597 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,840 single session is a small building block towards that. 598 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,560 So you have to do that to the best of your ability. 599 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,080 But that might also involve sometimes just making sensible 600 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,520 decisions and exercising that mental toughness I talked about 601 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,640 within the training and showing some restraint and not giving in 602 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,440 to that addiction of running or, you know, the Strava 603 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,720 performances or anything like that, you know. 604 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:15,520 And coming from your your bet in the pub now, now that the the 605 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,840 bets out of the way with and you're obviously enjoying 606 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:27,840 running, why do you run? I do. 607 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,120 I do like the sort of flow state that you get with running. 608 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,240 I just find that, yeah, it's a bit of time, my job and I do 609 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:40,680 like talking, but it is talking all day long and quite often 610 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,680 talking to other people about, you know, you're trying to solve 611 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,680 their problems. There's a lot of pressure and 612 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,080 time pressures associated with it, you know, keeping the 613 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,120 schedule going. And it's just guaranteed time 614 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,760 for me out in my own head. And yeah, I'd just like that 615 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,800 flow state you get with. And I like that it's building 616 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,600 towards something. To answer our next question is 617 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,560 what do you think about when you're running? 618 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,080 Oh, yeah. I think like most runners, if 619 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,520 you ever like, voiced it out loud, what you think about, 620 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,000 you'd be quite embarrassed about it. 621 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,480 You know, you've got all these great plans that are hatched on 622 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,360 a run on flow states, you know, but in, you know, in reality, 623 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,280 you're not going to write a book about being a dad after it. 624 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,760 It was a good idea at the time, you know. 625 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,560 I don't know, I had the idea to start this podcast when I was 626 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,080 out running and every, every time I went out for about 2-3 627 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,520 weeks, I'd come back and tell my wife, I'm going to do this, I'm 628 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,240 going to do this and here we are now. 629 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,480 So it's these silly things that you think about when you're out 630 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,720 running. Yeah, no, it is great for that. 631 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,440 And OK, if you do have it, if you do have something that's in 632 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,000 your mind, like, yeah, some, sometimes the answer appears, 633 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,640 doesn't it? You've mentioned that you would 634 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,560 like to possibly do a Comrades in the future. 635 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:06,360 Is there any dream races or bucket list races in the nearer 636 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,680 future that you would like to do before then? 637 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,080 I don't know where I sit on the sort of European races because I 638 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,800 love like there's loads of them that like immediately appeal to 639 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,800 me. The Laboretto for one, because 640 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,520 we, we've had some, we had a brilliant family holiday in the 641 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,200 campervan in the Dolomites. It's just stunning. 642 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,160 So running around that would be great. 643 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,360 But the flip side of that would be, you know, there is a bit of 644 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,840 altitude to consider that's hard to account for in the training 645 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,120 over here. So calibrate expectations and 646 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,280 then it's hijacking a family holiday and like I'm more 647 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,160 passionate about the holidays and travel than I am about my 648 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,040 own running and individual achievements. 649 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,680 And I love doing these things with the girls. 650 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,240 So heading over there and either having a race hanging over me 651 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:56,840 for the whole week or a few weeks that you're there, I don't 652 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,480 know if I'd fully enjoy that or commit to the holiday or if I 653 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,640 did it at the start of it. You just might not show the 654 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,120 enthusiasm that you should after it so. 655 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,400 But yeah, the Laboretto really appeals in terms of European 656 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,960 races. You ever thought about going and 657 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,560 doing your own adventure, like going on holiday and saying I'm 658 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,880 just going to run from this side of the island to that side of 659 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:24,520 the island? 100% like like UTMB for example. 660 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,720 I would rather run that with a few mates over like 3 to 4 days 661 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:32,080 at like, you know, it's not, it's not going to be easy 662 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,360 either. You know, you'll still be doing, 663 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,520 I don't know, 30 miles a day in the hills, but it'd be a lot 664 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,480 more casual and you can enjoy the huts and you know, the whole 665 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,240 experience. And in my experience, like, as 666 00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:46,160 much as I've enjoyed the events I've done, I've actually enjoyed 667 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,360 more a few personal projects that I've done over the years 668 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:55,360 where I did a Bob Graham round in 2023. 669 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,640 Let me get that right, just to tune the legs up so that don't 670 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,080 fall apart in the Lakeland 100. But I absolutely loved getting 671 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,160 into the whole Bob Graham round and the history of it and the, 672 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:10,120 you know, they like, yeah, just getting down to the lakes and 673 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,720 all through winter getting on it and then on the day, best thing 674 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,520 ever, just going out and like having your mates coming and 675 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,960 supporting you. And later on the same year, Neil 676 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,360 Mcnichol, he, he did one himself. 677 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,320 And I enjoyed that just as much as my own or any, any event. 678 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,760 So, you know, similar with the West Highland way, when I did it 679 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,440 in winter, it just, yeah, it was just nice having friends turn up 680 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,560 and have a much more casual sort of day out with pals on a tree 681 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,920 on a trail, you know, and no one cares. 682 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,680 Like I heard Gavin Deal say it on your podcast and I couldn't 683 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,640 agree more. It's like no one will care what 684 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,080 time you get on something like a Bob Graham once it's done, you 685 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,440 know? So it's yeah, it's just about 686 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,200 enjoying the experience. So did you do that? 687 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,680 Sorry, Mike. No, on you go. 688 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,840 So did you do that, Bob Graham, just for fun with your friends? 689 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,760 You didn't set out to do a time with that. 690 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,880 I obviously wanted to get it under the 24 hours, which I did, 691 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,520 but it like I felt that was always going to be comfortable. 692 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,040 I what I didn't want to do was like make it a bit of a season 693 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,960 ender because my main goal was the Lakeland 100. 694 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:28,520 So I went out on like a 22 hour schedule. 695 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:34,000 I think I got 21 1/2, but it felt very casual. 696 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,760 And I don't, I don't want that to sound wrong, but it was 697 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,480 lovely to do something where I didn't feel like I was just 698 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,640 like, in a state of despair in the trenches, like having to 699 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,560 grind out these hills. So you know that. 700 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:50,240 Yeah, I'm just chatting away to each of my support runners on 701 00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:52,760 the legs and getting to know them a bit more and then just 702 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,760 getting passed over to somebody else. 703 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,560 And yeah, seeing that, everybody felt like they contributed to 704 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:02,640 it. And you obviously love running 705 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:06,080 with friends, supporting people, them supporting you. 706 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,480 Is there anybody that you would love to run with? 707 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,400 Either fictional, non fictional, alive not? 708 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:21,600 Who would it be? Who it would be, It would be my 709 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,440 uncle Raymond that I grew up with. 710 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,680 He's my mum's brother. My whole childhood, like I lived 711 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,480 with him and he was disabled and so running with him is not 712 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,280 really viable. I don't think he would have 713 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,440 enjoyed me running them around in a wheelchair either. 714 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:41,240 But I haven't watched him my whole childhood and just seeing 715 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:45,000 the like, see the resilience of someone that didn't have all the 716 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,720 abilities that we do. And they can go and, like, it 717 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:52,840 takes them 45 minutes to get to and from a toilet, but they 718 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,800 still do it. And they still do it with a 719 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,600 smile on their face. And, you know, just, it just has 720 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,880 such a profound effect on your outlook in life. 721 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,880 You know, you just, we go to these events and, like, choose 722 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,400 to do them and, you know, you should enjoy them. 723 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,160 And, you know, you're going to get thrown up some challenges. 724 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,800 It's not the end of the world. Just get about it, you know? 725 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,240 Yeah, it was, it was brilliant. And yeah, he's. 726 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,120 Yeah. It's 10 years since he passed 727 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,440 away, so it would probably be him. 728 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,400 And yeah, there's a wee bit of a legacy within the family of him 729 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,640 where I've left some of his remains in the top of the buccal 730 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,480 and with my daughter, I'm not going to. 731 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,600 You might be able to see in the background that's Aria at 7 732 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,800 years old going up Curved Ridge. So I'm not going to harp under 733 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,320 about someone she never met. But that was her first ever 734 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,560 mountain and she was up at when she was four months old and 735 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,280 she's been up at the conventional route by herself 736 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,080 when she's 5. She's done Broad Buttress up at 737 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,320 which has agreed to scramble when she's 6. 738 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,560 She's done Curved Ridge when she's 7. 739 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,640 And yeah, we'll keep moving on from there. 740 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,120 And it's a special mountain for her to. 741 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,440 Well, she's done more than me. I try to go up Curved Ridge once 742 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,040 and the fog came in and we couldn't see a thing, so we had 743 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,320 to turn back. Yeah. 744 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,800 Yeah, sometimes the frogs your friend with these things, at 745 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,000 least if you're on the right bit of the route. 746 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:21,000 That was the problem. We were in the wrong place 747 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,800 anyway, so it didn't didn't matter. 748 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,400 Yeah, but no, it would be him. And just to sort of show him 749 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,760 some of the places that he could never have went because it's 750 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,440 inspired me to do the travel and the, yeah, the adventuring. 751 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,160 That's not tricky answer. Thank you. 752 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,880 Appreciating that I. Hope it wasn't too deep. 753 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,600 No, that's exactly what we're after. 754 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,240 Not at all. So I think we're almost coming 755 00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:52,160 to the end unless Mike has any more questions. 756 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:57,480 I've got one more question and that was your your bet in the 757 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,520 pub right back at the start was fuelled by whiskey. 758 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,800 Is that still part of your training plan? 759 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,040 It's not, no. I had AI had a stage where my 760 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,200 wife, who's much more active in social media than me, stuck up a 761 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,440 whiskey cabinet that I didn't really have at the time. 762 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,360 I had one bottle and then almost everyone that owed me anything 763 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,560 ended up buying me a bottle. So that that New Year's Eve was 764 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,800 actually our house foreman and I tried to get rid of all the 765 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,080 bottles in one going through a whiskey party. 766 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:36,760 And look where that landed us. So you mentioned the Lakeland 767 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:41,280 50, is your next event. Anything else coming up post 768 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,120 Lakeland 50, whether it be running, climbing, adventures, 769 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,200 what's lined up for the Kilpatrick's for the rest of the 770 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,080 year? So. 771 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,160 In August we'll head out to Italy and with the the van and 772 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,160 we'll try to get Aria up our first 4000 meter peak on Grand 773 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,080 Paradiso. So that's the first immediate 774 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,160 plan after it. But then the whole of late 775 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,200 summer and autumn will be kind of scrambling and climbing as a 776 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,320 family and just dial the running back like midweek will be get 777 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,200 the speed up again and, you know, keep that ticking over at 778 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,880 weekends or set aside for that. No events the tail end of the 779 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,760 year. But yeah, next year I'd maybe 780 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,680 like to take a step back from races. 781 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,160 But you know, I'm sure you'll see me on the start line of one 782 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,760 but and look at more of a personal project again. 783 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,920 I'm not sure what that is. Maybe the Scottish 4 thousands 784 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,760 route. I'll look at that. 785 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,680 But don't know open the suggestions if anyone wants to 786 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,880 send them in. I'm just not. 787 00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:48,800 I just thought one more question before we sign off without 788 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,640 naming any names, what's the worst injury you've seen in the 789 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:53,040 clinic? I've. 790 00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,400 Seen a lot of bad ones to be honest. 791 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,800 Sometimes the ones you can, like I've seen a few guys really 792 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,560 smashed up with motorbikes and so on. 793 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,080 But yeah, sometimes the ones that you can really relate to, 794 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,440 you could just visualize it, are bad. 795 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,680 And I remember a few years ago, some guy telling me he's in one 796 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,400 of these sharp baths and he just slept. 797 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,120 And the first point part of them that hit anything was the middle 798 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,080 of his back on the taps. And he did, he did fracture a 799 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,360 few of the transverse processes in the back. 800 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,160 But do you know when you could just imagine that happening? 801 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,200 It just sent shivers straight up the spine. 802 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:39,520 Right, on that note, we're going to leave it there and I'm going 803 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,520 to say thank you Nikki for being Nikki. 804 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,200 Thank you Johnny for sharing with us. 805 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,720 Thank you for being here and it's goodbye from me. 806 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,760 Thanks, John. Thanks very much guys.