Welcome back to another episode of Run Till You're Done.
Tonight Nick is done as proud and went out and got a superb
guest. Multiple spine finisher,
multiple FKT on the spine, multiple Barclay finisher, the T
Dodger himself. We've got John Kelly.
Welcome, John Kelly. Thanks so much for having me,
glad to be here. Thank you for coming on, John.
So the first question that we would like to ask is why do you
run? Well, I, I ran as a kid.
I ran in in high school tracking and cross country, but I kind of
took a decade off and, and wanted to see what I could do
and some of the longer distances and then discovered this, this
crazy thing called trail running.
And and I also have background and, and hiking and backpacking
and I loved the idea of being able to combine those and see
more in the limited amount of time that I have to get out in
these places. And you're, you're hiking is
taking you to some big adventures, big races, FKTS,
you've done spying multiple times.
You've done Berkeley multiple times.
If people don't know what that is, go and look it up because we
don't have time tonight to explain what it is.
What? What motivates you to do this?
Type 2 adventures, Type 2 fun? Well, a big part of it is
getting out there and just just being able to explore.
I, I kind of have a, you know, the way I think of it myself,
which it takes a minute to, to think about this usually to, to
understand it, but I like to say that I'd rather see some of all
of it than all of some of it. And so, you know, I know that
getting out there and running, I'm, I'm not able to soak in as
a few things as much as possible, but I'm able to see so
much more in my limited amount of time.
But then also there's the aspect of it that I've just discovered
by doing these things, by putting my selves in these, you
know, effectively artificially challenging situations that I'm
able to learn and and grow through that in a way that we
don't encounter in everyday life.
And and that does carry over to more day-to-day things and
especially to if I whenever I do encounter actual real challenges
in in life. And you've just been over
recently as well for, as Mike's mentioned, the Spain race,
you've done that a couple of times, done the Pennine Way FKT.
How did you find that failed for you this year?
It, you know, it, it wasn't the completely successful outcome I,
I was hoping for. It was certainly better than
spraining my ankle and not finishing like I did last year.
You know, mainly I, I had some sweep issues.
I had a bit of a, an issue with a diversion that I missed.
And so there were a few small things that, that didn't go my
way, but I came out of it with, with a finish and, and a good
experience and again, something that I can build upon for the
future. So certainly I'm glad I was
there and and glad I was able to get this one done.
Do you know how like you're having a a bad day, as it were?
What what's how do you get round that?
How do you get back out and just trying out the finish?
Yeah. And it's, it's difficult.
And in particular, because you know, on one hand, the more you
do these things, you, the more you have this kind of reservoir
of experiences in your mind that you can recall and kind of tell
yourself, hey, you've, you've been here before, you've been in
bad spots, you've came out of it, you've pushed through things
have gotten better and, and being able to recall those is,
is incredibly powerful. But on the other hand, the more
that you've done some of these things and, and if you've had
successes in the past, it's very difficult to tell yourself like,
hey, you're going to continue on and the result is going to be
worse than one you've already had before, but, but you're
going to carry on anyway. And so it is a bit of refocusing
of what your goal is of, of what you're out there to get from the
experience. And so I, I do kind of shift my,
my own goal posts a little closer, maybe adjust my,
honestly, my, my effort level to, to compensate for that to
where it's something that I feel, you know, mentally and
physically is, is justified. And also to, to just, you know,
remember that I, I'm not guaranteed to ever be able to,
to get out there again. You know, something might happen
that, that prevents that. And I need to enjoy that
opportunity and and that experience while I can.
You said earlier that you don't always see things because you're
basically going too fast. Horrible thing to have to be too
fast, but you were obviously a bit slower this time, coming at
the end of the spine. Did you see things differently
at the end that you haven't seen in previous years?
Well, the other part of the spine is, you know, you're,
you're dealing with 16 hours of darkness every day.
So probably a bit more than that by the time you get up to
Scotland. So, you know, you can't see as
much. I've seen certainly much more of
the benign way on my summer record attempts.
And but yeah, it was, it was very different experience
finishing this year where I kind of the first time I was being, I
was in the lead and, and being chased and I was all out focused
on, you know, staying in the lead, maintaining that and, and
running. And this year, you know, I'd,
I'd already conceded that. And, and so it was very much
just getting out and enjoying the trip over the Sheviets.
And I, I even kind of told myself and Bernice that 26 miles
from the finish with just that trip over the Sheviets, like I
can't believe I'm needing to convince myself on what was a
beautiful day to get out there and, and do that.
And so I, I did got up there and it was one of the was still
actually daylight then and just getting up to the top of that
first climb and I could see the entire Shiva.
It's laid out before me that the course, just every little peak
like I could mentally draw a line over the terrain of of the
remaining course. And so that was a really great
experience. And then just, yeah, being able
to to take that in and enjoy it a bit more.
I actually at the very last little time before the descent
to the finish is, is the shell. And I, I had a a bottle of iron
brew that Nikki Spinks had left at Burness and, and I picked up
and I've been drinking the whole time over the Sheviets.
And so I, I popped off the the Pennine way over to the actual
summit of the show, climbed the rock formation, finished my iron
brew and, and just kind of enjoyed that last little moment
before heading down. So it, yeah, it did.
Despite not having the outcome I wanted as far as running it, it
did allow me to enjoy a few moments, much more so than I I
would have had I still been racing.
Yeah, really important question here.
Was it full sugar iron brew or was it the new artificial
sweetener? Yeah, no, it's you got to have
the the full stuff when you're doing these things.
Yeah. So someone told me afterwards
that there is apparently like some original recipe iron brew
hidden there in that rock formation on the show.
I probably just urban legend, but I didn't see any while I was
up there. I would say when you're, you
said you had a different experience, but I find that
leading a race, the paranoia of somebody coming up behind you,
catching you, that is the the biggest motivator that I've ever
had. So I'm guessing you didn't have
that motivation this time around.
Right. And, and that's something that
I've kind of joked in the past, I need when I get to these sweep
deprived states where I'm really having trouble staying awake, I
just need someone to like pop out from behind a rock wearing a
bib or some, a bib number. And, and that would kind of give
me that adrenaline shot to, to keep going because it very much
that again, that first year, I thought that I was comfortably
in the lead. And, and then Jason Cavill
really kind of snuck up on me and we crossed paths there in,
in Bellingham at the last checkpoint.
And just seeing him there, you know, having that that physical
meeting really gave me the burst that I needed to push onward
from there. And that's a really nice segue
into the next question about the sleep deprivation between your
FKTS, Spain, Barkley, your big events you've done.
Do you have a set sleep strategy for each event or is it pretty
uniform across everything? Well, it's, you know, the, the
stuff that's quite 60 hours unless I kind of Barkley the
Pennine way records things like that.
I, I push through and until I simply can't and, and get a
power nap when I really need it, which for me seems to be a bit
more often than most other people.
In last year's Barclay with with by finishers, I was the only one
that slept on my Pennine way record.
I tempted to sleep for about 40 minutes in Gargrave.
So that's, that's something I, I tell anyone who's like, oh, how
can you take any more time off that record?
And I said, well, there's 43 minutes in Gargrave, just don't
stop in a van there and that's yours.
That's there for the taking. And so, you know, I certainly
continually trying things and trying to figure out things of
how I might avoid that. But it's, it's this area between
60 and 120 hours like spine and tortillant that I, I just
haven't quite figured out what works best for me as far as naps
or actual sweeps. And then, you know, you go above
that sort of five day mark where you're venturing into like my
Wainwright's record at the Grand Round and, and I'm getting legit
as in like, you know, one to three hours of sleep each night.
And and that seems to to mostly carry me through that length of
time. Is that that that little gap
between 60 hours and 120 that gets you?
Yeah, that's what I'm. I'm still trying to figure out.
And what what happens when you don't get to sleep?
Do you hallucinate and if So, what are the hallucinations?
No, I've, I've never hallucinated.
And so, you know, that's something that I I know a lot of
Jasmine Paris I know gets has had some very vivid
hallucinations, the kind where like, you know that their
hallucinations, but they're still there and and you can't
make them go away. So that's something that some
people experience, others just I can't think coherently when they
get really sleep deprived. Me, my issue is I just flat out
can't stay awake. I cannot stay on my feet.
I will fall asleep while moving almost.
I mean, actually going in just before Hornysted Farm this year,
running through that kind of forest logging area, I, I caught
myself like startled myself with a snore mid stride as as I was
running. And so that's my issue is I just
physically cannot stay awake when I get to that point.
But you've got you've got PhD in electrical engineer, is that
right? Yeah.
And you're a data scientist and do you think that modern AI has
got a place in race planning, coaching?
Could it? Could it help narrow down what
you're doing, analyzing your races?
It could be a good assistant and you know, it could certainly
develop in that area as well. I haven't experimented with it
much specifically for that purpose, but I, I think it's
what I found for most uses. I mean, particularly if you're
talking about things like ChatGPT and, and other large
language models, it's, it's great for kind of gathering
information and, and research and, and distilling things for
you. But then it's still very much up
to you to make a judgement that and make sure that it's, it's
all legitimate and make sense and, and to refine it before
just taking that raw output and, and accepting it as truth.
I kind of liken it to, you know, giving an accountant who had
been doing everything with pen and paper, giving them a
calculator, but one that occasionally gives you the wrong
answer. And, and so you just have to
still have that knowledge to know that, hey, that's not
right. I I need to check that one and
and fix it. Yeah, there.
There are certain things because you're dealing with humans.
You need that human input to judge certain things.
We're just not there yet. Yeah.
And and to know what question to ask to begin with, that's still
a a huge part of of these problems.
Yeah. So you do your events that range
between 6000 and 20 hours, Lots of training I would imagine
behind that. What do you think about when
you're out training or events while you're running?
Well, I mean, one, one thing to, to keep in mind is that I
really, you know, I think people assume that training scales
linearly with the distance of the race.
And, and that's, that's not true.
I, I really don't train any more than, than what I'll say a
serious amateur marathon runner would do.
And in terms of miles and, and time per week, it's, it's
structured a bit differently. It has different focuses
depending on where I am in the cycle and what race I'm going
into. And I definitely don't train as
much as I did when I was doing triathlon.
Seriously, there's only so much running that your body can take
before it hits diminishing returns or it becomes
counterproductive. But circle back to your actual
question. You know, I really, that's,
that's my one time of day that I don't specifically have to think
about anything. And, and so sometimes I'm just
letting my wander, my mind wander or letting it zone out
for a bit. Sometimes that's giving me that
kind of period of unstructured thought to really process some
problems or challenges that that I'm dealing with it at work or a
home repair or something else tricky that I've been trying to
solve. And just, you know, you can't
always come up with the best solution when you're like there
at the problem itself, fixated on it and, and trying to come up
with something right then it's it's been those moments where
your mind is a bit more free and can process things in the
background that often times the the best solution pops into your
head. Yeah, I think what you were
saying first by your answer there was work smarter, not
harder. You're you're probably more
focused on doing the right training, not more training.
More doesn't necessarily mean better.
Right. And, and a huge part of that
also has been, you know, I've, I've been working with David
Roche for I guess six years now. He he also coaches Damien And so
just having a coach, someone to kind of lay out that training
plan for me and not have to think about it myself and not I
have to constantly second guess myself of, oh, am I doing them
up enough? Am I doing the right things?
Am I doing too much? Just, you know, having that kind
of laid out, I do it, I'm done with it and I can move on and
not have to worry about what exactly I'm doing.
Has has been a huge time saver and stress relief for me.
I'd like to ask as well, John, about fueling.
What do you take gels at all? Or do you tend to use real food
on the trails? What the What gets you by?
So that's that's adjusted a bit for me over the years is kind of
my own preferences have adjusted.
I've found different things that have worked.
I've, you know, gotten older and learned about things like acid
reflux and other stuff that a 25 year old doesn't usually have to
think about. And so, you know, about half my
calories now come from liquid nutrition Tailwind, about 1/4 of
them for gels, which lately I've I've been using Martin.
I feel like that it it it works well for me and has a nice kind
of land, non offensive taste. And then another quarter is is
kind of additional food, sometimes real food that that I
need on these going events. Supernatural fuel operating that
they're in the UK has has been great and you know, snack foods
and really whatever I I just give myself that little margin
to eat whatever I'm craving in the moment.
And leading on from that, races like Berkeley where you're doing
a loop, you're coming back in, you're obviously stocking up for
the next 20 mile loop. How long do you stop between
loops at Berkeley, and what do you take with you?
As little as possible. And, and that's something that
that really, I've kind of spurred a change in the race in
the past 10 years where you used to be, people could go back to
their campsite, get some proper food, maybe even get a quick
shower head back out. And, and now the margins are,
are so thin. You've got to have that quick
turn around. And so there's now turn around
at the gate. There's a roped off area.
And like between the first after the 1st and 2nd loops, I'm, I'm
there for minutes. I mean, I, I don't even sit
down. It's swap my pack out, maybe get
a quick bite and and head on back out and and it is just, you
know what? What I've just mentioned is is
my my food options when I'm there in camp.
It's it's a great time to try to quickly throw down some things
that are are maybe less portable, like rice pudding.
Not not great to put in a pack, but it's it's great fuel for an
innate station or stop or pasta. Anything along those lines is
good kind of supplement to get when available between loops.
And do you get to keep the pages from your book when you collect
them? Yeah, yeah, it's I've got a, got
a box, a nice little collection of pages at this point.
You haven't put them up as wallpaper.
My first finish, I made a bit of a collage out of them, which,
you know, hangs up in my office. But yeah, the rest of them are
still in their little Baggies. Some of them have, you know,
given to various people over the years.
But yeah my my 3 finishes at least I still have those
complete sets. And I just have to ask as well,
John, just before we move on. I know she's not ever guessed,
but you mentioned Jasmine Paradis earlier and the world
went crazy or our world went crazy when she finished.
I'd just like to know what was that like to see first hand her
running into the gate and seeing her finish there in person.
What was that like? Yeah, I mean, it was, it was
incredible. I, I don't expect that I will
ever see another moment like that and, and sport in person.
And you know, it was really a complete mirror experience for
me of, of 2017 when I finished and I asked where, where Gary
Robbins was. And I just, in my mind, I fully
expected like, well, he's either finished or he'll be in any
minute now. Like he's definitely finishing.
And then he showed up just late and coming from their own
direction and and didn't get the finish.
Where's this time? We were there.
And like, knowing where I saw Jasmine on that last loop and
talking with people who had seen her at the the tower, just it
seemed pretty certain that she wasn't going to make it.
And so we were kind of resolved. If like, oh, this, this is
rough, you know, really close, but maybe next time.
And then all of a sudden that there she was and actually my,
my son weighed down on the other end of camp, shouted, there's,
there's a runner coming. And so it was, you know, this
just unbelievable, surprising moment And just seeing her, her
give her all and push up that last little torturous hill
through camp to get to the gate was, was amazing.
And and you know, I think it was just 90, 99 seconds or so on a
60 hour race. It's just unbelievable that to
think about that, that, you know, an additional 2 seconds
per hour, she wouldn't have made it.
And that comes down to you could have taken 2 seconds per book to
RIP the page out and that would have been it.
Yes, sure. Last his other race.
Well, he's got various other races, but the one that I know
about his backyard, big backyard.
Have you ever been tempted to do Backyard Ultra?
Yeah, I certainly have. You know, as to when or if I do
that, I don't know. It's it has quite the
qualification process at this point.
I don't know that I'm currently ready to devote an entire year
essentially to to qualifying for and and then doing that race.
I also still have my own little kind of monkey on my back with,
with Tour de Giant, which also happens in September, but it's a
very intriguing race format that I'd like to try.
It's also, though, you know, it's getting to the point it
keeps getting longer and I, I just I, I, I don't know that I
can take an arbitrary amount of time from work and my family and
just kind of say, hey, I'll be back sometime.
Maybe there are other? Maybe two weeks, I don't know,
sometime. You, you can come over and do
the one in Scotland, the the Highlander, what you're more
than welcome to come over and do that one.
No thank you, it sounds like it's probably better scenery.
Yeah, awkward question for you. Is there anybody that you would
like to go for a run with? Either live dead, fictional who?
Who would it be? You know what?
I really, I'd love to see some of the, the kind of older greats
in their prime and be able to, to go for, you know, look at
some of the, the people that finished Barclay 20 years ago,
guys like David Horton and and Brian Robinson and see them out
there in their, their prime doing what they do best.
Get go for a run with, with Josh Naylor.
And, you know, people like my dad as well, who, you know, he,
he took me out in the woods and out on these adventures when,
when I was a kid and would certainly love to, for him to be
able to, to join on some of these longer excursions.
Now hopefully, you know, I'll, I'll be able to stick with it
long enough for, for my kids to, to join and, and do these things
before I get too old to do them. So, you know, I, I think that's,
that's probably the, the biggest thing for me is, is just being
able to kind of revisit past greats and, and past people.
You mentioned talk to John earlier on.
Is that monkey on your back happening this year then?
That's playing. I'm hoping to go over there a a
bit early and make a little summer family holiday out of it,
get a little training on the train and and not have a
overnight travel to deal with a few days before the race.
So we'll see. You know it.
That one was similar to Spine this year, where last year I
started out with like 18 hours of the best that I've ever felt.
Running just felt absolutely amazing and then suddenly could
not stay awake. So hopefully I can resolve that
issue and and have a a good show in there.
There there's so many variables that no matter what you do, it's
it's never guaranteed. And I'm just, you know, would
love to to have the the dice clean to my favour on that one
are. There any other big adventures
that you've got planned, certain races that might be happening
very soon? Do you think?
Well, I mean, I you know, it's pretty well I I given that I'm
I'm returning to to Berkeley most years with it kind of being
my my home course and really double S as a visit to family
now and and is a short trip for me.
So certainly look forward to to being a part of that.
And yeah, I think plenty of of big adventures ahead, but you
know, with as as long as mine typically are, unfortunately I
can't just turn around and and do one every month.
Well, we know you're on a tight schedule tonight, so I think
that wraps it up for now. Hopefully you'll come back on
and we've delighted you with our Scotch banter.
All I can say is thank you very much for coming on, John.
Thank you Nikki for being Nikki and it's goodbye from me.
Goodbye from me. Thank you.
Thanks so much, I enjoyed it.