Hello and welcome to another episode of Run Till You're Done.
Today we are joined by a man who make and I both have the
privilege of calling a friend. He's taken on some of the
toughest UK ultras and further afield.
And even better, finish them Lakeland 100 W, Highland Way
twice, CCC S, Downs Way, 24 hour races and more recently the full
Spain. Every single one of them has
pushed him to his limits, and every time he's found a way
through grit, heart and a stubborn streak you could see
from space. He's also a coach with
Headspace, offering the kind of steady belief and quiet guidance
that stays with you long after a run is over in the Scottish
running community. And as mentioned, for Mike and
I, he's been more than a runner. He's been a really good friend
to us both, the kind who shows up, he lifts others, makes the
hard nails feel possible and he just keeps pushing you and
encouraging you. And he's one of the best
supporters. Welcome to the show, Dos
Beveridge. Thank.
You very much. I was just cut it in.
It's probably going to be downhill from there after that
introduction, but thank you. Well, you've just done a long
race, so it had to be a long introduction, but we'll get
straight into it. You're fresh off the spine.
I am not so fresh, but yeah. Hours, Days.
Not long ago it took you 163 hours, 15 minutes and 50 seconds
of the 168 hour 7 day cut off. They were chasing you.
Yeah, they were. You were.
You just got there in time. How?
How does it feel that it's now settled?
I'm still, well, yeah, I'm still, I'm still kind of in it,
I think. I mean, I've not, I've had the
last couple of days off work and so I'm not really back into real
life yet. But yeah, it's still a bit, it's
still a bit up in the air. I don't really know how I feel
about it. It's been winter spines kind of
some one of these races I've looked at for years and a full
of dots and you've kind of think and I can never do something
like that. That just looks wild and haven't
actually kind of got on the start line and then been kind of
obsessed about it for the last year.
And then to turn up on the actual start line and and cross
it and get going was all very surreal.
Even even back last Sunday when it when it started 8:00 in the
morning, it was it was just very surreal.
It kind of felt like any other race to start with.
And then it's only after you kind of fully get into it that
you start to realise kind of the magnitude of it and the, how
long it's going to go and just the, the size and the scale of
the epicness and, and all that of it.
And I don't even seven days later, when you cross the line,
you still don't really believe that you've done it.
It's, it's just, it's kind of a whirlwind week, but it went on
for a long time. At the same time, it's really
hard to describe. I I guess the.
Beforehand and feeling like it's just another race as probably
helps with the nerves because you knew it was going to be a
big task so. Yeah, I mean it's, it's, I think
a lot of it because it's quite low key in terms of there's no
like big fanfare at the start. You know that you obviously got
the just a big archway in the middle of a field at the start
and it's kind of half dark and everybody just milling about a
car park. And then you line up with a
minute to go and someone blows a whistle and you're off.
And, you know, there's no big fanfare.
There's no like male voice choir.
There's no fireworks. There's no, none of that big
stuff. You know, just 321 off you go.
And then you're out into the into the hills.
And that's yeah. So it's kind of a low key, low
key start. But obviously it's, it's not a
low key race. It's quite, it's quite an epic
affair. Well, I think we'll we'll get on
to the the spine, the main event in a minute.
But back to formalities over unity.
Yeah. So for those that as mentioned
in the introduction may know you really well and Scottish running
community and I would imagine that you've gained quite a few
more fans and dot watchers and new friends along your spine
course. So for those, how did your
running journey start? Seems like a while ago now, but
started way back when. When I got married, I wasn't a
runner at all, Wasn't a runner in high school or anything like
that. I didn't do athletics, didn't
really do that much sport. I did a bit of swimming, did
about ice hockey, just general general sporty stuff, but
nothing I wasn't totally good at anything.
I started running just after we got married and a previous
podcast, Alice has probably mentioned this story where we
were on honeymoon and we decided to use the gym facilities in the
hotel and I'd never run before. So I went on a treadmill for a
couple of minutes and was absolutely dying.
And I thought that was horrible. I don't understand why people
run. And then when we got back home
after honeymoon, it was just kind of like, I really need to
do something to take off a bit of weight of of put up with the
stress eating in the run up to the wedding.
So I started going out running and because running was cheap
and, and easy and you could just, oh, you need a pair of
trainers, right? You know, So yeah, you put your
pair of trainers on and you go to the end of the road and then
you go a wee bit further and a wee bit further and a bit
further and just kind of went from there.
So ended up doing first race was a 5K in Edinburgh British Heart
Foundation 5K and I don't, I don't think he raised any money
rather than it was just them. It was just because it was a
charity event. And then did a couple of I kind
of 10K in Edinburgh as well, graduated up to half marathon
and then went and did Edmund marathon.
And you kind of think, OK, marathons like a once in a
lifetime thing. You're not going to go any
further than that. And for some reason I decided
that I wanted to do something else.
So I found trail running and did the Glencoe Marathon gathering,
which was my first trail run. I think that was that must have
been 2014 I think. So that was my first trail run
and I absolutely loved it compared to the the road running
of everything I've done before, because every previous race was
road and I just love the trail and getting muddy and just the
views and all that kind of stuff into the vibe was a lot better
and I just enjoyed it a lot more.
So after that I was kind of looking for for more trail
stuff. So I probably ended up doing a
couple of 10 KS and things on trail, but the first big one was
Jedbra in 2015. I signed up for that not really
knowing if I could do the distance and it nearly broke me
at the time I was, I really hurt my knee coming down the third
peak in the Jedbra three peaks. And I had to basically just
hobble back to the back to the finish line start line.
And I was the slowest finisher on the day.
So I've got a special prize for being slowest finisher on the
day. And then I thought I was done
with that. I was, I was in bits and I
didn't want to do anything ever again.
And then we were later I decided I was going to go back and do
that one again because I didn't want it to end on such a low
note. So I went back next year and it
took two hours of my time and felt a lot better and it just
kind of snowed world from there. I've gone a bit wild since.
And you've obviously gotten a lot longer and you've done some
proper races like backyard ultras as well.
Yeah, well, some people would say proper, proper ultras like
that. Yeah.
So I mean, I've just kind of gotten into the whole Scottish
scene and the whole British scene eventually as well.
You know, there's always another race that sounds longer, better,
faster, harder. You know, there's always
something else knocking at your door as soon as you do 1.
So, you know, you end up from Jedbra.
You hear about things like the fling the devil from there, you
hear about the West Highland way from there you hear about the
Western States and and whatever else, you know.
So everything just all of a sudden falls into your falls
into your radar and you start thinking, oh, could I do that
and could I do this? Yeah.
So yeah, I've done backyard as well.
Obviously backyards kind of suit my skill set in the sense that
they don't, you don't need to be particularly fast.
You just need to be able to go for a long time, which is what I
think I'm better at because I'm not, I'm never going to be
podiuming a point to point race. So I do enjoy the the attrition
factor of backyard and just grinding yourself down and
seeing who who you can outlast. So I've been doing that for the
last couple of years. So Spain has been a bit of a
blip in that in the sense that it's back to point to point
racing. So it's been the first point to
point I've done in a while. And when you look back at all
the races that you have done from start to current day, does
it feel like you've went in a straight line or has it just
been a series of chaotic decisions?
I think it's been, it's been kind of organised chaos.
I've got, I've got things, I'm like, oh, I want to do that.
And I press the button before I know what I'm doing.
And then you think, oh, I should really have done something else
before that. And so I'll go back, I'll
retrace my steps and I'll go back and I'll do some truck
something else in there before it just to ease up.
And it's like all of a sudden I'm doing 2 races instead of the
one that was supposed to be doing.
And then you add something else and you add something else.
And then when I wasn't being coached, that was easy to go a
bit overboard with and just sign up for everything that was
going. And you find yourself racing
every weekend, racing every weekend or doing an event every
weekend and it's all very expensive, saying they've all
very tiring and you're not really putting in any kind of
performance. You're just kind of hovering
around mid back to the back of the pack and having a great
time, which is absolutely, I'm absolutely there for.
But I think if you want to kind of be pushing yourself a little
bit and you want to be doing yourself justice performance
wise, I think you need to pick and choose your races a bit
better. So that's kind of where I'm at
just now and that's kind of what I've learned from and being
coached and doing the coaching is that if it's absolutely fine
to meander about and just have a great time with your friends and
have nothing against that. But if you want to push yourself
a little bit, I think you need more structure and control in
what you what you sign up for. And are you still coached?
I am, yes. I'm coached by the the wonderful
John Connolly, who I've been with now for God knows how long.
Four years maybe. So, yeah.
So I think I've got a good, good working relationship with John.
And we've, he's been keeping me on a short leash for for a
while. He kind of knows what float from
a boat and he knows what I don't like to do and what I need to
do. And we've got a really good
working relationship, so. So yeah.
That's been a whistle stop tour in comparison to what we're just
about to talk about, but we'll get on to the main event, which
is the spine. You're probably not slept much
since it didn't sleep much during it, but we'll get on to
that later, right? Starting right at the start,
you're on the start line. What's going through your head?
It was all a bit chaotic actually.
Then because we had, we were staying about 20 minutes drive
outside of Edale because I basically got to put the
accommodation in advance because there's it gets snapped up
quick. Edale is not a big place, so
there's very little available. So we ended up and then this, we
placed 20 minutes outside so I had to drive to the start line
from there and the roads were horrific.
And we kind of got stuck driving to ideal down this really ropey
hill on ice. And there was a big truck that
had kind of come up the hill and then got stuck and at the back
all the way down. And it was one of those really
windy on a Cliff type roads that was going down.
And it took us a while to get there.
So well, we got there eventually and got into the car park and
parked up and did all our bits and pieces.
And then we were kind of hanging about a bit.
And then it was kind of like, oh God, right, It's another time to
go. I better get my stuff on and and
get get going. So put my stuff on And I was
like, I've got too many jackets on.
I'm too hot. I'm going to take this one off
and then put on another one on and pack this away.
I'm just going to check that I've got that and my bottles are
filled. And you start panicking that you
don't have everything, everything because you think I'm
going to be out here for a week now.
I can't leave anything or I'm going to be really screwed.
So I was just starting to, it went from being OK to be like,
right, I need to check I've got everything and make sure
everything I know where everything is in my pack.
And then everyone starts heading over to the start line and I
couldn't get my pack on. I couldn't get it fastened
because I put an extra jacket on which had made me wider around
the belly. So I couldn't get it fastened
and it's in the dark and I couldn't see what I was doing.
And Alice is trying to adjust the adjust it.
And then I was stomping over to the start line and I was trying
to meet up with my my friends who had done Ricky's with.
So Leon's Proctor was there and Craig Stokes, who were both
doing the full. And we did a little WhatsApp
chat going on in the months running up and we're trying to
find them in the dark, which I eventually did and we can hug
each other and said good luck. And then all of a sudden it was
321 go and everyone started running and I was like, oh,
shit, here we go. So it was all very chaotic at
the start, which isn't really like me, but I think that's just
a sign of the kind of nerves that you have with these things.
So yeah, it was, it was just it was just a bit chaotic and but
once it got going, it was fine. You just, you start and you're
just following the people in front and you have to remember
to start your watch, which I eventually did and all that kind
of stuff. And you start making sure the
tracker is working properly and that you're going the right way.
And the roots, the roots, roots loaded properly and everyone's
going the right way. And all of a sudden you're up
into the snow in the hills and you're on your way and everyone
just settles into their their own little rhythm.
You you said that you were double checking, checking your
list and checking it twice. And yeah, you're not in Nice.
Did you have a list? Or more important, did you have
everything? I did have everything, yeah.
I mean, I knew I had everything, but it's just one of these
things that you, you're always panicking about it.
I've been panicking about not having things for nine months.
And you always think I've got this thing, but is it going to
pass kit check, I've got this thing, but is it going to be
good enough? Or is that do I need something
better, small or lighter, whatever.
And I think it was just part of that.
You know, you just until you actually get going, it's just
stress and panic. And I think anyone who's ever
been on like the spine start list will completely understand
that the the kit list itself is essential.
I won't have, I won't have anything kind of bad said about
the kit list, but it is very intimidating and stress inducing
for someone who's not done a race like this before.
I mean, it's like it's like 31 pages long.
It's very specific. So it's it's the the most
stressful part of this kind of race process was getting through
kit check on the Saturday. Is there anything that you
brought extra that you now think that should have been on the kit
list? No, I think the man of study kit
list is, is pretty good. I think Lindley Chambers, who,
who does it, knows his stuff and he he puts it together well.
And the the other guys who put it together.
So all the mandatory stuff is on there.
But they do say to you, this is this is the mandatory minimum.
You should be taking other things with you.
I mean, I had an extra jacket in there and I opted for a larger
bag than some. And I think that was one of the
better decisions that I made just because I had room, I had
rummage room and it meant that I was confident that I could pack
extra stuff at the last minute if I needed to, if the weather
was going to be totally bad or wet or I wanted an extra pair of
eggs in case something broke or tore or or whatever.
And I think I, I don't think I noticed any difference between
having a larger pack than anyone that didn't, it didn't slow me
down in any way possible. So I'd, I'd recommend anyone, if
you're thinking about going, going on the spine and taking a,
a larger pack. I took a 32 litre pack and I'd
go for the larger one. There were some people there who
had a 12 litre pack, which I think is wild.
I've got a Salomon Eslab 12 litre and I couldn't imagine
having a week's worth of kit in that bag.
Yeah, but there's a guy who did it on, did a YouTube before the
start list and you put all this mandatory kit in it.
So I mean, it proves that you can get all your mandatory kit
in it, but that's not going to be enough for you should the
weather go bad. And as we'll probably hear
later, the getting, getting stuff, even though you've got
the stuff with you doesn't mean it's staying dry or intact or
during the week. You know, if you if you lose it
and you can't replace it, then that's a problem.
Do you have things like in your bag?
Were the inside plastic bags dry bags?
Yeah, so I had it's like a big rucksack liner.
It's like it's basically a glorified bin bag and it's more
heavy duty. So I had that inside the full
main main section of my bag. And then inside that it was
individual dry bags. So I had my sleeping system in
one dry bag. I had my changes of base layer
and socks and things in another dry bag.
I had my electricals in another dry bag.
I had a spare and insulated jacket and another dry bag so
when I needed those things I didn't have to unpack
everything. I just took out the bag that had
that in it and it was sorted. And did you know to do that from
advice from the groups prior to the race?
Yeah, I mean, you get advice on all of these things.
I mean, there's, there's sometimes too much advice on
these things. You know, everyone's got their
own way of doing things. It's like asking someone which
trainers they should wear. You'll get 1000 different
suggestions and you know they they 1000 people will be right
for them. But yeah, I think you can take
the advice that's in the group. The group is very helpful for a
lot of things. A lot of the things I learned
was just out doing recce and speaking to people like Craig
and the other guys on the recce and seeing what they were doing.
If I had found something on the record, it wasn't working for
me. I could look at them and say,
oh, what have they done different?
And. It was good to see in action,
you know, so that I got a lot of good tips there.
Was that from people that had done the race before and they
told you or were they? Yeah, not Was you?
They were kind of in the same boat.
I mean, Craig has done the challenger SI think before.
So he had done one of the spine races before.
Not, not the big one, but it's obviously you, you know, the,
the lay of the land by doing one of the one of the smaller races.
So it's people who have done it before, Yeah.
I think the kit list is the same for the.
I don't know about the Sprint races, but definitely the the
challenger ones, yeah. Yeah, they are the same.
And. It's slightly reduced this year
as well. I mean they, they reduced it to
take away you didn't need a camping stove or gas and things
this year. You you could take it if you
wanted, but it wasn't part of the mandatory kit this year.
So it has been slightly reduced on years gone by, which is which
is good. So for USDOT watchers getting
all the dots lined up, a good few of us had noticed that you
had buddied up with Llenos Procter early on from day one.
Was this in your plan between you or did it just happen?
Yeah, absolutely wasn't in the plan.
And me and you know, I've never actually met in person until we
stood on the start line. We've been chatting away for
months in the WhatsApp group, but and obviously we've got like
40 mutual friends on on Facebook and instead of whatever else and
we've probably been at the same races and all this kind of
stuff, but we've never actually had a conversation before.
So we're just going to met each other at start line and same
same with Craig and the three of us just headed off at our own
paces and we didn't see each other.
I literally didn't see Craig again in the race after we
crossed the start line. Clint also, I kind of saw
slightly up ahead in the first mile and I started speaking to
her for a wee bit and then I got too hot and I made the decision
to stop and take off one of the jackets I was wearing.
And obviously she was. She was off by then and I didn't
see her again until later that day when we just caught up with
each other again. But it was completely
unintentional to to hang in with each other even even for the
full day, never mind a full week.
And we just, we were just fell in stride wise with each other.
We were chatting away. We're having a good time.
It kind of passed the miles and you kind of have those awkward
little moments where you come to a natural stop, play at an aid
station or whatever and you're like, or are they going to push
on or are they going to wait? But we pretended just to just to
stick together. And it wasn't, it wasn't really
a spoken thing. We didn't ever really say like,
can can you wait on me or whatever.
It was just like, are you going now?
And like, yeah, I'm ready to go and off we went.
So yeah, but I mean, definitely, definitely helped the the bad
parts pass easier. And yeah, just, I haven't having
someone there to talk to and having someone there to pass the
miles. And you guys are know what it's
like when you're running with someone, you know, sometimes you
can have good, good points and bad points at different times.
So if they're having a bit of a slump, you can drag them along
if they're and if you're having a bad time, you just hang on to
the back of them. So I.
Think there was a point where even like in the first day or
whatever that you thought right, we are sticking together now
where you were waiting for her, she was waiting for you because
she knew you needed it. It wasn't wasn't so much needed
it. I think we were just enjoying
the race more together than we were apart.
And there was a few kind of dodgy bits that were just like,
I'd rather have someone with me going over this river crossing
or whatever. So it was a case of I'm not
going to, we're not going to leave each other now, you know,
And we were perfectly happy for later on in the race on day 234
or whatever to just feel like one of us needs to move on when
the other one needs a rest type thing.
And then we just naturally part ways then.
But it never really happened. But it was, it was just the kind
of kind of the safety and in company, you know, you've got
someone that you get on with and that you, you can trust and, and
you're not, you're not struggling to keep up with and
they're not, you're not dragging them along either.
So it was just quite natural that we, that we hung out
together for as long as we did. And then eventually we've got to
a point on kind of probably day 5 or, or whatever, it's like,
right, we just have to see this out together now.
There's no point in going through all we've gone through
and then go in our separate ways in the last day.
So yeah. And how do you think the team
relationship changed throughout the week from going from never
meeting each other in person to then spending your week's
holiday on the PEN 9 Wed together?
Well, holidays are stretch. That's not what I was just
telling us. I mean, there's, I thought
there's definitely something that comes out of spending that
long together, especially in such a hard environment.
And we've, we've both obviously had their ups and their downs.
I'd say I probably had more downs than she did.
She maybe had deeper downs than I did.
So it's, it's a strange thing because you can just, you can
kind of share things and open up to people and in such a short
period of time that you wouldn't normally be able to do in, in
real life, you know, and the, the kind of boundaries that you
have go away quite quickly when you're in that kind of
environment because you just, you kind of, you don't let any
of the, the bullshit get in the way.
You just need to do what you need to do.
And there's no pretence about anything like when you were to
be flippant about it, you know, we're just peeing beside each
other and stuff, you know, because it's like we're not
going to, we're not going to go half a mile away just to get out
of each other's sight, you know, and we're just just turn our
back and we'll be, we'll be fine.
On we go. And then you're, you're sitting
there sleeping at the side of the road together and things
like that. It's just, it's such a bizarre
thing for someone you met 48 hours ago, you know?
But then. I think there's somebody
psychologically about running when you're like, you lose your
inhibitions because you're not looking at somebody.
They're, they're right next to you, but you, you're looking
ahead and they're, I think you're, you're more likely to
open up to somebody and that's probably has something to do
with it. Yeah, it's that side to side,
side by side thing I think is is quite equalizing and it's quite
yeah, picture on a level playing field with each other.
I think it's Yeah, it's good. It's good, it's good.
It's like a very intense relationship, though, you know,
it's a, I think because you know, it's, it's finite as well.
You know, it's, it's going to, you're not going to be this
intimately close with this person once the race ends.
You know, it's very like the, the relationship has, or the
intensity of relationship anyway, has, has a shelf life.
And then we're going to go back to what we're normally like.
You mentioned about the downs for each other.
You had more downs, but she had deeper downs.
I'm intrigued to know when you don't know each other and then
you spend those first couple of days together.
How do you help each other through that if you don't know?
Let's say, for instance, somebody's not a hugger and you
say, oh, come on, you know how? How do you help each other?
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like any other relationship.
You just have to work out as as you go, you know, you, you if it
was all very organic and natural and stuff.
So having issues like that didn't, didn't really happen.
And I think it wouldn't have been the relationship it was had
we been different. Like let you see if one of us
had had been really diva behaviour and just dropping out
and, and someone else had been really kind of emotional and
crying all the time. And, and if it was annoying to
the other person. You know, I think you get to the
stage, you're like, I'm going to try and ditch this person
because I'm, I'm, I'm having to carry a bit of, a bit too much
of their load. So yeah, I think again, that
just has to happen naturally when you're out there.
You can't really control how, how well you get on out there
and how and how much you're willing to put up with from the
other person. If it's, if it's manageable,
then it's manageable. If it's not, then you probably
have to go your your separate ways.
I just realized that we've been talking about Alice and for any
listener that doesn't know, Alice is the sports psychologist
that we had on in previous episodes and just happens to be
coaching partner with Ross in Headspace Coaching and they
happen to be married. Yes.
So, so very coincidental. And and to add on to that, she's
now there until you're done. Sports Psychologist.
So next question is what surprised?
You. Once you're actually out there,
is there anything well in, in terms of your capabilities, in
terms of what the route was like, you interpret that how you
will? OK, Well, I mean, I reckoned
pretty much the whole second-half of the route.
So the whole first half of the route was brand new to me.
So I didn't really know what to expect in the first half.
It was tough going and there's no getting away from it.
But the biggest issue with with the race isn't, isn't the
mileage necessarily. I mean, you look at it and you
think 268 miles in in January up the pen and weight sounds hard,
you know? And it is.
But that's not the hardest part of it.
The hardest part of it is managing yourself for the
duration and for in between the checkpoints.
And it's such slow going. The terrain is really bad and
the way marking is really bad. The terrain is really bad, the
weather's really bad and getting from one point to the next is
really hard. And you have to manage yourself.
And it's not, it's difficult to go as slow as you are, I think
because you, you look at and you think, OK, the, the next
checkpoint or whatever is 5 miles away, though, I'll be able
to do that in an hour. But you won't.
That's, that's taking you like 2 1/2, three hours.
And being, being accepting that you're going that slow is really
hard because it just feels like it's never ending.
So you, you have to adjust your expectations as to what's what's
available out there to you. And even when you get to the
checkpoint, it's not like you get there and you rest, you
know, you get there and you're immediately on it again.
You're physically stopped, but you're mentally going 100 miles
an hour. You have to get your devices
charged. You have to get your wet kit off
and dry. You have to change your kit.
You have to deal with any blisters and if anything's
broken, you need to replace it from your drop bag.
You need to fuel, you need to sleep, you need to get all your
devices charged. If you're going to go, if you're
going to stay there for a couple of hours and then go out and
it's going to be dark for 16 hours after that, you need to
make sure you've got more than like 1 head torch charged.
You know you need to there's just so much that goes on in in
the checkpoint that takes up all your energy.
It's it's a very kind of frenetic time.
The only, the only time you're actually relaxing is when you're
sleeping and you're not sleeping much.
And you might spend 6 hours in a checkpoint, but you're only
sleeping an hour and a half of that or 90 minutes of that.
You know, there's, there's it just because you see that little
bed icon, you think, oh, they're just having a wee sleep for six
hours, but they're really not. It's, it's so hard going and the
checkpoints are busy. You know, they're, there's a lot
of people coming and going, there's noise, there's
cluttering, there's banging and it's hard to sleep and the
people are coming. It's a lot of the places are
bunks. So there's people who are coming
out and into the bunks. You're having to climb up and
down off the top bunk, which is horrendous.
You know, you've got a toilet you can get, you can get a
shower and stuff as well. But I mean, if you're having a
shower, you're having to peel off every layer of clothing and
do chafing and take all your blister stuff off and and make
sure you're properly dry re dressing it again, Putting all
your creams on all this stuff just takes so much time.
And then you've got to be really honoured as to how long you
think the next session is going to take.
So you have to be really stripped with, OK, this is how
long we've got in this checkpoint.
We have to get out of here by this time and then we're on our
way. So I think the big the most
surprising thing about the whole race was how little the actual
running made-up of the whole headspace of it all.
Where's the wheel displaced? You fell asleep.
A few share them all. Share them all.
Well, there was. I mean, I fell fell asleep.
On the. Trail several times, but it was
like it was a completely planned nap.
So you'd be going along and you're completely falling asleep
on your feet and we're just like, OK, well, we'll have a
nap. OK.
It's like right, 5 minute nap, 5 minute nap.
OK, so you set an alarm on your phone and then it's like the
scene in Toy Story where the kids come into the room and toys
will just go flomp like that down on the ground.
And we just went flomp down into the Heather and that was us for
5 minutes. And then baby beam, your phone
would go off and right up again and just you just start marching
again. And it's really weird.
Slats on the toilet like on an actual toilet pan.
Obviously and. Not.
Having the one night sleep I've had.
And so I think I was there for 45 minutes maybe, maybe not even
that toilet floor and Duffton was horrendously cold.
But we didn't have any choice because you were only allowed to
stay in the checkpoint for 30 minutes and you got kicked out.
So the only other choice was to go into either the bus stop or
the public toilet and the bus stop was taken.
So probably thought it was. And it was so cold.
And every time you moved slightly, it was like automatic
lighting. So it came on.
So it was like daylight as soon as you shuffled about in your
sleep on me, me or my, my running friend Johnny Pepier.
And we were sleeping there together.
And I mean, when you get the chance to sleep with another
man, a strange man in the toilet, you know, I've never met
this man before in my life, but I've slept in two toilets with
him now. And the tent, yeah.
So you just, it's just. Horrendously uncomfortable when
broken sleep and and I slept on a stage in the highest pub in
England. For some reason.
One of the checkpoints is Tan Hill in which is apparently the
highest pub in England, so we had to claim all the way up
there and then we were exhausted and got told we could sleep on
the stage in the pub, so I slept there.
Pub I. Think was the checkpoint for the
original hill. Yeah, I see.
It's a very weird pub. After you've been 20 hours.
Climbing a hill. Yeah, I think that's.
Probably the the weirdest places that we that we slept out of all
of them. I might be wrong, it might be.
Something else but I'm sure they said at the time it was the
highest pub, but that one closed down and reopened so I don't
know whether it's the same one or not I.
Actually love that checkpoint. To be fair, it was it was just a
nice little break from the the heaviest conditions outside.
And how? Did the Spain race compare to
see your other big events that you've done such as Lakeland,
West Highland, W, CCC? Because I would imagine even
those three named ones are all different again to each other.
How does the Spain compare to even the three of those?
I mean, it's definitely the toughest.
There's there's no. There's no question it's the
toughest, obviously the longest, the others.
Are kind of summer races. So the weather is genuinely
better. I mean, not always in the lakes,
it can, it can be changeable in the lakes, but I don't know the
other, the other races are kind of they feel more like, they
feel more like races, whereas the Spain just feels like you
don't you're not looking any further ahead than the next
checkpoint. It's like a series of of events
within a big event. So with Lakeland, you can focus
on the next checkpoint, but you know it's part of a longer race.
Whereas with the spine, you cannot look any further than the
next place you're getting to, whether that's an honesty box or
a cafe or a pub or just whatever little breadcrumb you've put out
for yourself on that next section to get to.
You can't afford to look any further past that because you
just it's such slow going and such hard going that you I don't
think you'll make it if you if you're looking any further
ahead. And I've got no idea how the
likes of Jack Scott and that cover that distance in the times
they do because it's so unrunnable.
It's so horrendous and ice and bog and just hideous, overgrown,
unmarked non trail. And I don't understand how they
move on at any speed whatsoever. Great, the course.
Records what, 70? Two hours?
Yeah, that's wild. I can't understand that.
I just I haven't haven't done it now.
I just, I don't understand how that's possible.
That's why he's the best and. You.
Mentioned you had. Lows between you and Linnaeus,
But thinking about yourself, what was the lowest low that you
had? How did you pull?
Yourself out of it. And last part of the question
was, was there a point that you genuinely thought I can't do
this? Yes.
Night night 2 or day 2 of night 2 was one of the laws really
really bad laws for the lowest of of been.
Yeah. There was just a section on day
2 I found really difficult. I'm not sure why I found it so
difficult. I don't.
Really know why I found it so. Hard, but it was just.
It was awful and it's. It's the worst I've ever felt
and I really didn't think I was going to get to the end of that
it. Was just the worst place.
In the world and I felt it was just complete.
Like desolation, there was. Nothing there.
There was. It's like where I'd honestly
felt like I was in at the end of the world and there was no it
was hopeless. It never came to an end.
The terrain was awful, fog came down, couldn't see anything and.
We just we. Just didn't seem to, to get
anywhere. It was later on and on a
treadmill and the numbers wouldn't take over, you know,
and it was just horrible. It was really, really just got
me really down and I could not drag myself out of it.
I was trying every kind of trick in the book to try and pull
myself out of of kind of the pet I'd put myself in.
And I was really low then and I don't know how I got through it
really. I just had to keep following
like, you know, I was in front and and.
That was aged sometimes. She would go up ahead and leave
me and I'd have to kind of push it to get to bring her back into
sight because the visibility was so bad.
And then there was another guy joined us at one point we found,
we found him on the road and he just hooked in with us at one
point. And I was, I was really
struggling with blisters on the soles on my feet, which was just
making the going slow because it was a really rocky path.
And they two were just, I don't know, a quarter, quarter or half
a step quicker than me. So they were just pulling away
into the distance and I was just felt like I was getting left
behind and isolated. And yeah, it was a really, a
really bad night that night. And I don't the answer to the
did I get out of it? I obviously did get out of it
where we eventually got to where we were going, but that's the
lowest I've felt in in running or in life.
That was really bad. And yeah.
So you get to the next point after feeling.
Like that what got you out of the checkpoint yet it was that
bad a night and it was that horrendous what what clicked in
your brain and thought no, I'm going to keep going here Well,
once you got. To the checkpoint I just felt, I
mean, it's the the relief of getting to the checkpoint
completely clears it. You get into the checkpoint, you
get fed, you get looked after, you get all your wet clothes
off, you get warmed up, you can have a sleep, you know, you can
just had a shower and you just feel so much better.
You're just ready to go again. And it's like you just fully
power yourself up and then spend the next section gradually
breaking yourself down. That's what happened.
I'd broken myself down so low. I just need the building back up
again. So getting into the checkpoint
was, was just like a restart. So that's kind of what got you
out again. And I felt like that session is
done, that's over, I got through that, that's finished and we're
on to something else. So it wasn't like a continuation
of what had come before. It was it was something new.
So that's kind of what I didn't have any issues getting back out
again. Once I got to the checkpoint, I
was fine. But that getting to the
checkpoint was real really tough.
And did you have any? Mantras or anything, just was it
just a focus? Just keep going, keep going,
keep going. I know.
I mean I tried to pull out. Loads of things you've got,
obviously you've got mind tricks and mantras that you can try and
pull on yourself and you're trying to think about the
positives and think about like what you're doing and that
you've, you, you want to be out here doing this and this, this
is what you've paid for and and this is the this is what's going
to make it worthwhile when you look back and try to think about
other things that you could be doing now that are you'd much
rather be doing this and all these things.
But nothing was working. It was just such such hard going
and it was the, the kind of endlessness of it.
It was very, it's very seamy. You know, there was nothing to
to see on the horizon. There was nothing to see all
around us. There was nothing.
You couldn't see anything. Just what was in front of your
feet and and what was in front of your feet was horrible.
So there there was no getting away from it and there was no
focusing on a point up ahead because there was nothing up
ahead. So it was just that that's what
was hard, I think. And.
That's sort of. Isolation that you're feeling.
It probably didn't help that you were so tired.
How did you deal with fatigue? Did you have hallucinations?
Yeah, not. Not then.
That was day. 2 So not not by then, I think I was just tired.
I mean day one we got absolutely battered with the weather.
So I think I was tired. I think I was just physically
beaten up on day one because it was, it was snowy and windy and
we could barely stand up coming over the hills.
So I'd taken a physical beating on day one and then a mental
beating on day 2. And then it was just a case of
eating like whenever you could, it was just getting some food in
and you always felt better after you ate.
So you go in and you have as much food as you can get in
India and stodgy carby stuff. I'd had snacks with me as well.
So that was the snacks were kind of keeping me going in between
checkpoints and things. But getting a full feed in the
checkpoints was absolutely essential and getting sleep,
even even if it's an hour and a half, you know, it's and
obviously you'll know this from backyards, Mike.
It's like in backyards, you have to make do with a couple of
minutes sleep if anything, because so this was like a
luxury for me to be able to stop for an hour and a half and get a
sleep, you know, in it's not 8 hours as you normally as normal
people get, but that's totally enough to, to fill your your cup
and get you going again. So that's kind of what got you
going and got you out of the checkpoint was just the, the
full belly and the, and the bit of sleep.
It's amazing. But what I can do for you and on
some more happier. Thoughts.
At what point did you think that's it?
I'm going to finish? I'm going to touch that wall.
I don't. Think that ever really occurs?
To you until you're in the Cheviots.
Yeah, I. Mean I I don't know.
How it looked from from home. I know you said earlier it was
kind of chasing cut offs and stuff, but we never felt like we
were getting chased by cut offs and it was all quite controlled.
We knew roughly how long it was going to take to do the next
session, even though it was a horrendously long time and we
knew we had we had enough time and if we left the checkpoint by
this time we'd be OK. The way it works is that the
first checkpoint is really tight.
So getting into checkpoint 1 is, is really tough.
And if you get in there and get out again, it's then 62 miles
until the next checkpoint, something like that, which is a
fucking long day, really long day.
And especially when you've had a hard like getting beat up in the
first day. So second is such a long slog
and you just have to get in to the checkpoint under the cut off
then and then it really eases off and you have a lot of time.
So we spent a lot, quite a lot of time in between those
checkpoints and we had, we had the time from that point
onwards. I think so.
So yeah, it was once we got into Cheviots and through that, that
checkpoint and Burness, we did have a bit of a nightmare around
Burness. But once we got out of that and
on our way, it was possible after that.
So yeah, what was the? Nightmare and bun this well.
Like I said, I'd wreck it. All of the northern half, apart
from I think it's like 30. Yeah, I don't think it's even as
much as 30. It's maybe 7/17/18 mile stretch
between Belinger and Burness. And everyone had just kind of
said, Oh, yeah, that's just a wee, a wee bit through the woods
and then a dirt track and you'll be fine.
It was horrific. It was so bad.
It was just this, this bit through the woods that never
ended. And the, the, the terrain was
horrible. It was just rocky and it was
boggy and it was muddy and it was like jungle and there was no
path and the fog was so thick and it was all slightly uphill.
It was really tiring and slow going and we were really
fatigued by then. And we just, we just weren't
having a good time and both of us were having a bad time.
About halfway through, we found another runner that was really
disorientated and wandering about in the woods.
And he had turned his head torch off and he was wandering about
in the woods. And he, he was claiming that he
had been running with other other runners and he was seeing
things in the woods. But these things were invisible
if you had your head torch on. So he turned his head torch off
so that you could see them and he was in quite a bad way.
And so we decided to split the race.
You know, you can't just leave him out in the woods.
So we decided to take him with us and he was, he was in a bit
of a bad way and he was convinced he was seeing.
Little like black animals. Running alongside us and things
while while we're running, which was really freaking us out
because we were pretty depleted ourselves and we just weren't
convinced what was going on. We were at a point where we
didn't even know if he was there and it was it was just a bit
horrible. And eventually we met a safety
team up at the top of the hill. They had driven up to try and
find us because the conditions were quite bad.
And we kind of relayed this all to them and they, we're kind of
like, do you guys want to hold on to him until the next
checkpoint? And we were like, well, I don't
know. And they're like, because
there's very little we can do for him other than like pull him
out the race. And he was like, I don't want to
get pulled out the race. And all right, OK, fine.
So I think they were delighted that we decided we'd continue to
hold on to him and I. Was absolutely falling asleep on
my feet. I could not keep my eyes open.
I mean, every 10 steps my eyes were closing and I was stumbling
and falling. And this went on for hours,
hours and hours and I was just falling asleep and falling
asleep. There's nothing I can do about
it. You know, the only thing that I
can do stop that is go to sleep. But we're kind of running.
If you're stopped and going to sleep, I wouldn't have been
confident of getting into the checkpoints and stuff in time.
So we had to just keep pushing on in the dark.
And then we got close to Burness and we couldn't find the turn
off the main road and there was no signs, there was nothing.
The tracker on our watch was saying that we had to take a
left and there was just no left turn to take.
And we had gone past it and watched that and beeping saying
we've gone past the turn and we went back and there was no turn.
And we did that a few times and then we called race support and
they said that we had to go back the way we had come.
And we did. And then we phoned them again
and they said, Oh no, we've gone past it again.
And so we phoned them again and we just went on and on like
that. And then eventually someone,
they sent out a support team to come and find us and we had gone
massively wrong somehow. We've gone miles along the road
and they brought us back round to the checkpoint.
But by this time we were just really pissed off and tired and
angry that we couldn't find the, the, the turn off.
And I felt like everyone was speaking to us like we were
children. They were just saying, OK, you
need to go along here. It's 200 yards.
Are you going to be able to make it?
And I was like, yes, absolutely. Just show me where to go and OK,
just walk beside me. I'll keep you right.
And I was just feeling really babied and we were just really
tired and grumpy. And but in that checkpoint, you
can only spend 30 minutes once you arrive because they
literally start a stopwatch when you get in the door and and kick
you out after 30 minutes, they just hand you your shoes at the
door and push you at the door. So something that.
I said to Alice. I.
I I kind of disagree with that 30 minutes because it encourages
people to go and sleep out in the trail rather than in a safe
place. Yeah.
What's your viewpoint on? That and what's.
The is there a general consensus on that?
And well there. The one in Burness.
Wasn't so bothered about because we had the ice church along the
road, so that that was OK. So the yeah, the one in Burness,
we got kicked out after 30 minutes.
Selenos had to stay there a bit longer because she had medical
issues that she was getting seen to so she could stay a bit
later. I got kicked out before her and
our friend who's seeing things in the woods had to stay there
for medical assessment as well. So I went along the road and
stayed in the church, which was absolutely parish and cold.
The other one. That we came into was the.
Checkpoint at Duffton which is again is a 30 minute stop over.
So we came off of Hike up Neck, which is one of the big areas up
up there, a big high ravine with a huge drop off.
That was one of the scariest points of the race for me as
well. We had a very, very ropy
experience up there in the fog again, and quite traumatic up
there for both of us. And we came down into the
checkpoint after having been up there and the checkpoint team
kind of looked at us and they were like, are you guys OK?
We're like, no, we're really not.
And we don't think people should be up there on their own because
it's just so it's so dangerous and so scary because if you've
not, we we wrecked the area. I mean, you have the massive
drop, but if people from other countries and stuff had come,
don't know that that's there because the trail takes you
right along the edge of the drop.
It's so scary. And yeah, so we asked them to
send out a safety team from from that checkpoint to make sure
people were coming down. OK.
And but yeah, they kicked us out after 30 minutes from from
there. And as well, they allowed us to
stay a little bit longer because we were traumatized and probably
got their team together. But I think we were just about
an hour. We got kicked out, kicked out of
there. And you're going from a heated
like village hall there. I mean, you're soaking wet and
you're cold and you're exhausted and you're in a heated village
hall and then they kick you out and you have to go and sleep on
a freezing cold toilet floor and you're soaking wet, you know,
and you're it's it's not great. But I mean, it's not that you
have a choice. You know, you can't, you can't
like, say I'm not happy about that.
It's just, it's part of the race, you know, you just have to
get on with it and, and do what you do.
So, yeah, sorry. I've.
Forgotten the question. But the 30 minute, the 30 minute
cut off thing is stated upfront. You know what, what you're
doing, you know, you've only got 30 minutes there.
I mean, if you're getting there in in daylight and it's, it's
nice and sunny, there's no, there's no issue.
The problem we had with that, that one after high Cup Nick was
that we had to go up another one of the big claims, which is
which is cross fell, which is one of the most notorious areas
on on the course. And I think it was about one or
two in the morning. We got in there and we just
after what we had been through, we didn't want to go up.
Cross fell in in the dark and and the weather like that.
So we decided that's why we went to the toilet instead.
And that was one of the better decisions we've made in the
whole race. I think we had a great, great
day up. Cross felt it was beautiful and
other people. Had the most horrendous.
Time the night before up cross fell.
So swings and roundabouts, you know, I think if you just have
to make these decisions on the fly and that's what that's what
makes your race. I I.
I managed to look up. The The Hill Ultra, the original
course and it was on Shining Tor.
So that's on the West side of the Peak District.
So it's not the same pub. So later on in the race you,
you're the Lynn Ross train as we were team Lynn Ross.
It got longer, it got bigger. You, you gather people you found
people lost in. Lost in the woods.
Did you feel? That.
Everybody was that part of the race that everybody stuck
together. Again, it wasn't really
intentional. We, we picked up, I think his
name was Ian in the woods, but we offloaded him at the medical
team at Verness and that was just doing our Good Samaritan.
But that wasn't any kind of teaming up business.
Whereas we had been to and fro in with Johnny and Petra for a
couple of days. You know, we, we've been in at
checkpoints at the same time. So we've been speaking to each
other in the checkpoints and we kind of passed each other out on
the trail. They passed us.
Sometimes we'd passed them. So we'd been hanging about a
couple of days with each other just off and on inadvertently.
And they'd been slightly behind us.
We'd been slightly ahead of them.
And the last day or so, we decided to team up with them
just because we were all together all the time.
And we just, we were, we got on quite well.
And we, we decided that just in numbers, it was good to get the
four of us, get the four of us over the line.
So that's, that's when those guys joined us.
And it was, it makes the, the males pass quicker.
You know, you just, you just have a bit of an injection of
new vibe into the, into the group.
And yeah, it's good. And Ian's name is not Ian.
In the woods, it's Ian Evans. Ian Evans.
OK, I was going so sorry. Ian, did he did he finish or
did? He get medically pulled, I
don't. He finished.
Did he finished? Yeah, finished.
Or there was an Ian Evans. Finished in 164 hours and 5
minutes and 51 seconds, so I'm guessing that that's him.
Hold on. Ian pulled himself together and
we previously as Mike. Mentioned have had your wife
Alice on the podcast talking about positive attitudes and
everything that you need to get through not just the Spain, but
you know, tough races. How has Headspace, your coaching
company, helped you throughout this journey?
It's a tough one. I think you obviously you're
always learning. I think so I, I learn as much
from the people I coach as they do from from us.
You know, they, they have ways of doing things and that rubs
off on me and hopefully I can bring some knowledge then as
well. So you just, you can pick up
things and it's it's also nice to have.
It can be a kind of pressure. And you know, if you guys were
talking about imposter syndrome with Alice from previous
podcast, it's the same with us. You know, you feel like, how can
I coach anyone if I don't have all the answers?
So there's a bit of motivation in that and that I have to, I
have to find a way to do this in order to justify.
Myself as a as. A coach or as an expert or or
something in this field so that that kind of that kind of
pressure as it was kind of gets you through and makes you dig a
bit harder in I think and and look for answers that you might
not look for otherwise. So yeah, it's an interesting,
it's an interesting point I've not really not really thought
about well. You are accountable.
To your. Clients just like they are
accountable to you and that's it, yeah.
Yeah. So yeah, it's not accountability
thing. You know, you want to, you want
to do the best for yourself obviously, but if you have that,
that other, other eyes on you as well, you know, it makes it a
bit, gives you a bit more impetus to push on through.
I think that's why there was. One interaction that you had
with me in the race and I just made sure that you knew we were
watching you. Yeah.
Stalking me and. You're coming down the hill very
early on Sunday morning. You get sight of the finish
line, you're with your 3 pals and you can hear the chairs.
Very quiet chairs. But coming through and you get
to the wall. How does it feel?
If I'm honest, it's it's a bit. Underwhelming.
I don't really want to say that because it's it's not it
shouldn't be, but I think because you know you've got
there miles before that you know there's nothing between kind of
hot to and the end. There's nothing going to stop
you really. So you kind of accept your fee
and we talked about it as a group in the last few miles that
this was. The this was it coming to an
end, you know? We'd, we'd spent a lot of time
with each other and we'd had this adventure and we'd, we'd
gotten through these, these times and it was all about to
finish now. And we were very focused on.
We really want to just enjoy these last couple of hours
because after this, after this couple of hours, yes, this
horrendous pain and everything is going to be an exhaustion and
and trauma is going to be over. But we're going to be back to
our lives and, you know, we're going to be back to just the
daily humdrum of, of existence back at home doing chores and
putting washing on and, and ferrying the kids back and
forward and all that kind of stuff.
So we wanted to make the most of the last couple of hours so we
weren't in a huge rush to get over that line.
And then when we got there, it was obviously a ridiculous time
in the morning. I didn't even see Alice and the
kids as we went down the hill because we were just really
paranoid about falling on the ice as we came down the hill.
And so it was just taking it really easy.
And then we were having discussions about are we all
going to touch the wall together?
Are we going to make a break for it at the top of the hill and
see who gets there first? Are we going to Sprint finish?
Yeah, we're going to trip each other up for what we're going to
do. We're going to go to to a time.
So yeah, it just ended up being a bit of 1/2 of 1 and something
of another, you know, we're just going to go there and did it.
And then we got our our kind of wee mini interview.
And then we all just kind of went our separate ways and went,
went and sat down and got our feet soaked and got a wee bowl
of chili and that kind of thing. So I didn't expect it to be huge
fanfare and stuff. You know, I mean, obviously you
get in the back of the pack yet it's the middle of the night.
There's not going to be all the bells and whistles going for
you. But I don't really know what I
expected. The actual touching of the wall
was quite special, but the the the whole finish line thing was
kind of a just a quiet affair. I think one of the things that.
Made me really happy is the daft thing, but it's not really.
I was gutted to miss you. I did go down and for personal
reasons I had to be back home. But in the morning when I seen
the pictures, you had previous Spain winner Debbie Martin
Gonzani at the finish line as well.
Did you, did you notice Debbie at all or?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave, Debbie, Joe.
Came and there's this car came screeching along the the track
and pulled in the car park as we were pulling our way into get
them and these two lunatics go out, got out and it was Debbie
and Joan came running up and grabbed us and cheered in her
face. And then they got back in the
car and zoomed along the finish line.
So yeah, so we we saw them, which was quite funny.
And again, that was one of these things where we were just like
we knew we were done before we were actually done.
And you know, because you're it's like every checkpoint on
the spine, you get into town, but you've still got an hour and
a half to go before you get to the checkpoint because it seems
they seem to have got a building the opposite end of town.
And so it was the same with the finish line.
We felt like we got into and then we heard like, Jesus, we've
got stuck with the war around here and along this river and
along this path and up this hill and then down this hill and then
we'll get to the finish. So it was just a long time
coming. But yeah, we saw, we saw Deb's
and all that. And they were obviously there
for for the nice more than me. But it was nice to see you and.
You mentioned at. Each checkpoint there was
obviously people there trail angels that might have been out
on course, I don't know. You'll maybe explain this.
How important were these small interactions?
Because some of the checkpoints you only saw them for half an
hour or even less probably. How?
Important were were.
Those interactions and was there anybody that you would want to
shout out that went above and beyond to help you?
I mean there. There's.
There's lots of people, it's, it's such a, it's such a weird
thing. And obviously I don't know any
of their names. They're they're just these
random people who who appear and, and random strangers who do
things for you on the course. There's, there's various trail
angels, as they're called, that open their doors to, to you or
they'll, they'll put out a little honesty box or, or a box
of snacks or whatever for you just on on the trail.
And I can't remember the name of the place, but there's a lovely
lady who opened up her barn for us and she had like 4 mattresses
in there and like tables and stuff set out with snacks.
And she had a microwave and a fridge and a big bowl of soup
that you could just heat up from.
Have as much as you want. There's tea, coffee, hot
chocolate and all these kind of things just sitting out.
And you were just, you just went in and helped yourself and slept
as long as you want. And the cat's name was Mr.
Nibbles. And because Mr. Nibbles was
climbing all over me while I was trying to eat my soup, there was
this amazing just wheel, sweetest wheel couple that were
coming through just shy of land and Beck And they they were just
shuffling along the road and they set, they set up their,
their we like mini aid station just on this kind of log by a
gate. And they just had wee tins,
apple ties and wee biscuits and stuff that they brought along.
And they were just there with their dog.
And, you know, they were just they were just wanting to they
just thought it was kind of amazing what people were doing
and they just wanted to help in a a really small way.
And that kind of that kind of thing is amazing.
You know, it's just a sweet old couple.
You know, they're obviously in their don't know 80s probably,
you know, and they're just they're just getting involved
and and doing this wee thing that doesn't doesn't mean much,
but means a huge thing at the time.
There's also trailing Joe Annie, who is and Gary Girl.
And after after you come off Cross Fell, you come into this
return and she literally opens her front door to Spain runners.
And so you're coming up off these snowy, wintry, bleak
conditions up in Cross Fell and you come down at the town and
all of a sudden you're getting ushered into this wee woman's
kitchenette. And you're just sitting there at
our table and she's feeding you coffee and tea and biscuits and
flapjacks and stuff. And she's got 5 or 6 monitors
around. She's showing you where people
are and how long it's going to take to get there and just
telling you there's 31 styles to the next checkpoint.
And she, she does it every year. So she knows it all inside out.
And, and she's, she's, she's bonkers, but in the best way.
And it's just surreal. You're just sitting there like a
kitchen stool all of a sudden, and then all, and then you're
out and away. Away you go again, and there's
just various. People like that all the way.
Along some of the some of the medics and and stuff that that
can help me deal with blisters and stuff were just just
amazing. You know, they're just so, so
kind and so helpful with you and just told you what to do and
what like how to do this and how to do that and give you good
advice and just kind of went. Above and beyond checkpoint
volunteers. Brilliant.
And couldn't do enough for you. And Hannah Rickman took my
sweaty, stinking socks and hung them with the dry, which is
surreal moment. And it's just, yeah.
And the volunteers, just brilliant, you know, And they're
just, they're just people, you know, some of them are amazing
off runners and some of them are just people who have turned up.
And they're all equally, equally wonderful.
And Hannah recommend definitely. Happened.
That wasn't a hallucinate. No, that was that was that was
definitely happened to you. We we were in that checkpoint
for a long time. So we we got a bit of chat.
Yeah, she, she was quite intrumental in getting, you
know, out the door again. As well when she was having her
waffles. So thanks, Hannah and
throughout. The course like that sounds like
really nice moments that you had.
Was there anything along the course that you ate and you
thought, Oh my God, this is the best thing I've ever had.
Like, was there anything The Yeah, the the there's nothing
that. Nothing like that I mean.
Everyone raves about the awesome lasagna.
I only had a disappointing 4 portions of that.
I had two as soon as I walked in because I was starving.
And then I went for sleep and I came back and I had another one
and I shoveled a vegan version down my throat as I was leaving.
But I just don't. I don't have time.
I have no idea how Katherine Kerry managed to have enough
time to put away 12 portions in that checkpoint, because I
didn't. And then the size portions I.
Mean. That size very they're not,
they're not huge, but they're enough.
But it was it was good. Don't get me wrong, it was, it
was good. But I mean everything,
everything in the checkpoints was good, but it barely touches
the sides. You're just shovelling it down.
The thing that I really enjoyed the most was it was like a
chicken Curry and went into the checkpoint and we saw it was
like chicken Curry on the menu. And I was like, I'm not sure
about that. But I mean that's that's that's
a risky that's a risky option when you're there running about.
And but it really it was kind of a karma, but it was mostly like
a coconut chicken type thing. So it wasn't very Curry ish and
it was it was amazing. It had potatoes in it and check
big chunks of chicken and rice it keep got a big nan with it
and stuff. So that was really good.
I had a good few portions of that and they had a rice pudding
and Swiss roll and all that kind of stuff as well.
Just all this good kind of stodgy, hearty stuff and broth
at various places. The horny Horny side, Horny Side
Farm, Honeystead Farm. Yeah, the broth there was
amazing. And I got to be cuddled with the
dog, which was nice. And yeah, the.
The food was all good, but. Nothing, nothing to complain
about. And was that was that your
fuelling? Strategy just to kind of pick up
stuff as you went along or did you even go with a fuelling
plan? Was a was a jails involved
tailwind, anything like that? Kind of give myself options the.
The main fueling strategy was to just completely load up on carby
stodgy stuff at checkpoints because it was late, limitless
and on offer. And then I had like you had to
carry 1500 calories worth of food on you and in between
checkpoints. So you had to leave the
checkpoint with 1500 calories worth on you every time.
So obviously how they zip lock bags with about two and a half
1000 calories worth of sweets. And I had like real, real meal
bars which have got like 600 calories in them, which are kind
of kind of flapjacky type things, which are they're OK,
they're not the tastiest thing in the world, but they get the
calories in. So I kind of had a mixture of
them and I had Morton gels with me and Precision hydration gels,
but I didn't touch them once and the whole thing, it was mostly
just food. I was just snacking on.
Snacking on that kind of thing. And did you lose any weight?
Surprisingly no. I weighed myself today.
And I think I'm only a couple of kilograms down, so I think I
probably just replaced for anything I lost with the food
that I put on. So I ate quite well, have to
say. But again, it's a timing thing.
I think I would have probably eaten more had I had more time
in the checkpoints, and I think having had I done it again, I
would have taken more savoury stuff for in between checkpoints
rather than mostly sweets. Speaking about your time at the
checkpoints. Although you took 163 hours to
get from A to B with 35. Hours.
Of FAFF admin sleep, what is known as dwell time, dwell
thing, So what? Works out you were doing. 36 1/2
minute miles, less than two mile an hour out.
Out of context, anybody would say that slow, slower.
But is there anything that you think?
You could have done to. Speed up a bit.
I mean, obviously. From this point onward, they're
taking 12 hours off the off the time that you're allowed to do
it now and from this point forward.
So I think had I had 12 hours less, obviously the numbers
would say I wouldn't make it round.
But I think had I got into it knowing I had 12 hours less, I
would have made it round. So I think I could have, I could
have pushed it harder. And I think it's one of these
things that any big race you go into, the first time, it's all
about the learning experience and it's about completing.
The second time you go back you can put in a bit more of a
performance and I've definitely learned places that I would be
able to push on a bit and places that I could pick up time.
I think a lot of time was sacrificed at Langdon Beck,
getting cleaners out the door again, which won't make me
saying that, but we had the time to do it.
I think it was worth spending that time getting it out then
pushing on myself. And I'm I'm glad I sacrificed
that time there in order to continue the the journey with
her. So yeah, there are definitely
places I could have gone faster. But I mean, the terrain is just
so bad. It's it's so bad.
It's really hard to describe how unrunnable it is.
It's just not in any way. I don't understand how the
faster guys do it because it's so it's so treacherous.
It's like, it's like ice under snow underwater on a, in a bog
that's got half a stone to stand on.
I mean, I had a pretty bad fall on the TV and I broke my, my
walking pole. And it's 'cause I was walking
along and you're following the path of a flagstones and a
couple of them disappear under the water and then reappear at
the other side of the water and you're just following it along.
But unfortunately one of the ones that was under the water
had broken in half and there was like a six foot drop underneath
it into nothingness. So I went straight down there,
snapped like fell on the pole, snapped it.
I mean, I could have easily like broken my leg there.
And it's just so treacherous. And there's stuff like that all
over the place and there's there's some really scrambly
bits and there's some really kind of ropey descents that are
just kind of scree and but they've got ice on top of them
and it's it's just such hard going.
And yet obviously all that kind of difficult terrain takes
concentration, which tires you, which makes you go slower and
yeah, all of that. So I mean, a lot of it's
dependent on weather, a lot of it's dependent on just your
general speed. Anyway.
I think if you're a faster runner, you're obviously going
to be faster over any distance. But yeah, I was, I was happy
with what with what we did at the time.
And I don't think we were pushing the cut offs enough to
warn pushing significantly harder at any point.
So. But you talk about as well the
faster. Runners, you don't know how they
do it. Bear in mind, the year Jack
Scott broke the record, those were the conditions.
And even Jack Scott himself this year mentioned how treacherous
the conditions were. I think it was one of the worst
starts the Spain's had in a long, long time, was it not?
Yeah, Well, you know the. The the.
Runners who did the Challenger S started on the Saturday.
They they got such a nicer first day than we did.
We we got absolutely battered on that first day and I think there
was hardly any runners had their numbers still attached after the
first day because they all just got whipped off in the wind.
And you can barely stand up on top of any of the hills.
And there's a few people got swept away in the river and
there's just so much ice about the place.
There's so many people falling over.
And I think in the first day they were speaking to the medic
at the 1st checkpoint and he said there was a broken wrist, a
dislocated shoulder, a couple of broken toes and a concussion.
It was just all people falling. And because it was just so
treacherous and and so windy. And it's really hard to to stay
upright when you're getting battered with the wind and
standing on ice. So yeah, it's that that was that
was a tough day. And it was real baptism of fire
on on day one. And it just, it did really take
the energy out of you. And then obviously you know that
you're going into day 2, which is a 60 odd mile slog and didn't
quite know how bad that was actually going to be.
But yeah, the 60 miles was was bad enough.
The the conditions were made it significantly worse.
So. So did you lose your number in
the? Wind as well.
Oh yeah, my mine was gone within.
Two hours I think, but I've got to got 4 of it because it's the
last assault. And not wanting to put.
Ideas into Coach John's head, but has the spine shifted?
What you think you're now capable of?
I mean, I don't think it cannot I.
Think if you go into something like this, like I said, I've
been like everyone else watching these dots for for years
thinking that that's right. The kind of edge of anything
that I think I'd be capable of. And I think I'm right.
I think that that is right at the edge of what I'm capable of,
but having now done it, it does push.
Your boundaries a little bit. But I don't know what, I don't
know what's out there that that I would consider more difficult
than that at the moment, at this moment in time.
Would you go back? Not just now.
No, I mean. It's, I don't think I could do
that to myself again, I think. I think that was just really
hard and I might go back one day and do one of the shorter ones
just because it's a, it's a brilliant event and I'd like to
be involved and I'd love to, to go back and have a good time.
But I think the fool is probably a step too far to go back.
Again and I. Think I'm probably 1 and done
with that. Well, I got a chance to.
Speak to Doctor Nikki Ligo at Cochietum and she's always on
the hump for volunteers. Yeah, I mean, I'd.
Probably go back and volunteer. I think that would be fun.
And I think having having done the race, you're, you're in a
good position to understand what people will want and need when
they come in and. Yeah.
But yeah, in terms of. Running the race again?
I don't think so. I mean never, never say never
because I've, I've said this before, but I don't think so.
I think this. I think, I think I've picked up
too much trauma to what to go back again.
The next question seems. A bit of a stupid question to
ask. Biggest running achievement is.
This by far. What What comes second?
It depends. If you if you call us the
running. Achievement or not, there wasn't
much running involved, but two mile an hour.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Endurance.
Yeah, I mean, this is the biggest.
If you're calling this a running event, this is definitely by far
the biggest running achievement. Yeah, I don't know what my
second would be, I think. I mean, get inside for Scotland
in the backyard. Is always going to is always
going to be up there, you know yeah, I don't know how much more
I can do with the backyard of injuries and all that.
Hold hold up and I'll get I'll get some good training in and I
fix my sleep deprivation stuff. We'll see, but that's.
Probably something. That I'm going to go back to
rather than anything else like this that was.
You've kind of. Answered my I was going to ask a
question there and still with point to points.
Do you think you would go back now to West Highland way in
Lakeland and places like that? And do you feel that doing
something like this would set you up better for doing a short,
say that flippantly, because there's still nearly 100 miles,
100 miles. Do you feel you could go back to
those places and with a bit not so much confidence, but knowing
really you can properly do it? Yeah, I think so.
I mean, I've. I've never been wanting to not
do things like W Highway and Lakeland again.
I mean, I love those races. The the the point to point races
are great. And I think I think this.
This probably. Gives you some kind of
experience that you can take into those races and improve on
past performances. Absolutely.
So yeah, I'd. Absolutely be up.
For going back to those races again.
But I mean, there's a lot of stuff I want to do out there.
You know, there's other bucket list races and this was
definitely one of them. So now that I've take this one
off, I just have to go go back to the list and see what else is
on there and. And this might be a hard
question for you to answer with this having been so recent, but
why do you run? Why do I run?
It's. It's just a simple sport.
Just oh, he needs a pair. Of trainers cheap.
Cheap doesn't take. Much time, OK, I thought, I
mean, it gives me it just gives me space and freedom and
headspace to, to just process life, I think.
And yeah, yeah, that's just just my time.
You know, you guys have got families and and significant
others and jobs and things. So it's, it's just time for you.
And amongst all that and that's that's still going to be the
case. I'm going to be doing much this
week. But yeah, that's that's why.
And you had a lot of time. To think and you said running
just give you your headspace, but what?
What do you normally think about when you're running?
It depends what's going on in my head at times.
Sometimes it's a good time to work out problems and try and
find the answers to things that you just don't have time to
process. Other times you just want to
quiet the noise and just think about nothing and you just take
some blink 1. 82 On and away you go.
For a couple of hours and think about nothing except lyrics and
other times you just you you just want to be out out in the
quiet and and not think about anything so it.
It varies. It depends.
It depends on what's going on your on your head as you lift
your shoes up. And you say you have.
A bucket list of races is the many left on it.
Yeah, there's loads. It's just all all the all the
usual big hitters. You know, you want to go out and
see these places and do these things.
I'd love to go back to Shamani one day and do the full UTMB
there. I don't have any immediate plans
to do that, but I'd like to do it one day.
I'd like to go do Western States.
I'd like to go and do Tour de genre.
I'd like to go and do all these kind of big, all these kind of
big ones, couple of big American ones.
Alice's Bill lives in the States, so I'd like to maybe go
out there and see them and do do one of them.
But we're out there adventure race, like spine and stuff.
I'm not sure if I do any more of them, but it's, it's possible
I'm going to start looking into something that if, if there's
something similar out there to that, I might go and do that.
But I'll get right enough. So I might as well go and use
it. And so, yeah, there's, there's
lots of things that I can, there's always going to be
something that's that's going to pique your interest.
So I'm not doing one in the Arctic.
Spine or something like that. Yeah, that's that doesn't,
doesn't. Really do Foggy.
I know too many people that have lost their fingers.
Back, yeah, I mean. Dragons.
Back's on there, I mean. It's a funny one because I'm not
sure I'm fast enough for Dragons back, but I think I'd probably
like to have have a go at being 1/4 Welsh and all that.
I should probably set foot in Wales at some point so.
Yeah, I'd like to have a go. At Dragons back, but maybe not
anytime soon. I think I think for the next
little while I'm going to take a wee bit of a step back from from
running, not from running, but I'm training, training for
anything specific. I think they've just been
there's been a lot in the last couple of years and especially
this last year with the spine and everything that's going on
with it. And I think I just need a bit of
time to myself. It's there's been a lot of kind
of recurring injuries. There's been a lot of fatigue
and I think a few just maybe fallen out of love a wee bit
with just running for running's sake.
So I think I'm probably going to step back a wee bit over the
next six months and just take a bit of time and see what's see
what I'll actually want to do next.
Next question it might be. The answer might be your
imaginary friend that you found on the in the woods, on the
spine. It might be Lenos.
Is there anybody fictional, real, alive, not that you would
like to go for a run with? This is a difficult one.
I had a little think about this and I.
Kind of wanted to do something of something profound or
interesting, but I couldn't really come up with anything.
So I think the best I could come up with is I'd like to go out
for a run with my younger self just so that I could tell him
that everything's going to be OK.
And that's. Kind of the best I could come.
Up with because I was a very different person probably 20
years ago and a bit lost and stuff.
So I think if we could take that guy out and on a run and share
some of my gained knowledge with him, whether he'd listen to me
or not, I don't know. But I think that would probably
be the the one I'd go for. That's very profound.
This sounds self indulgent to me.
And you might have. Answered this.
One just the other now as well. We will understand if you never
want to run again ever. Did you have anything booked or
do you plan on doing anything at all that over the next?
Year. Well, I'm.
In for a. Couple of backyards over the
next year, so I've got B Craig's in April, which I'm in for and
I've got Russell Block, Hardwick Hall which is in September.
I think those are only two that are in for the rest of the year.
And backyard wise I would, I kind of had an eye on trying to
get back into the Scotland team for the Four Nations again this
year. But the way logistics are with
it isn't going to work for me. And because Alice and I are we
in Thailand over the summer. So we're going to miss that.
So I think the main priority is just going to be on like family
and just calming life down and stuff for the next week while
then the backyard to be Craig's is fairly local to me.
So and it's obviously run by Kayleigh Webster, who's a friend
of mine. And it's not really, I'm not
taking it that seriously in terms of an event.
And I'm, I'm just going to go in there for, for a jolly and then
for support my friend and, and see a lot of people that I know.
So that will, that will just be a nice, a nice little come down
from the spine, I think, and just getting back to running
without pressure to perform. So because I was kind of
thinking that I could maybe use that as a qualifier for
Scotland. But if, if I'm not going to be
make make the Scotland team and there's that takes all pressure
off of that. So, so yeah.
So that's all I've really got in in the diary and I'm not really
planning to add anything else in Sonya well myself and.
One of your coaching clients, Steph, I hope she doesn't mind
me mentioning this. We were going to invite you out
onto the Pentlands in a couple of weekends time because we
think it's the only time we could probably outrun you.
I wouldn't make it to the car. Park.
Judging by the way I'm walking just now, I've got to go back to
work tomorrow and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to manage
it in my Crocs. The last question that we've got
written down. But you've not seen, so take
your time. What advice would you?
Give to any other. Runners either doing the the
spine or just as runners in general from what you've learned
to runners doing the. Spine definitely I've got a lot
of advice for those that have been in Spain because obviously
I've I've come into the Spain having not done any of those
data events before and having gone straight into just doing
the big one. So there's been quite a steep
learning curve. So for one of them in Spain, I'd
say don't get overwhelmed by the kit list.
Find kit that you know works and don't.
Try and. Have everything for every
eventuality and find a combination of things that are
going to work for you and stick with what you stick with what
you know. Use them.
Use the kit well in advance so that you know it works.
Also, your admin is more important, vastly more important
than your running, your fitness and stuff.
You obviously need to be fit enough to cover the course, but
it is way secondary to the way you manage yourself out on the
course. It's the way you manage yourself
is going to get you through more than the the running.
And I think that's probably true of all running in life really.
You know you have to. It's not about being super fit
and ready to go. I think you need to be able to
handle what's what the the askings of the course are more
than just be able to to run it as as fit as you possibly can.
You need to, you need to have your head in the game to know
what what you what's a reasonable expectation for
yourself. You need to not compare yourself
to others. You need to not compare yourself
to past performances and you need to just do the best that
you can on the day in the given circumstances.
And for those just getting. Out of the door and not doing
the Spain for normal people. Have you got any good?
Like small piece of advice, but to get yourself out the door.
Just running in general. Yeah, for those that are just
training for anything, yeah. I mean, well, you've you've.
Got to, you've got to enjoy it. And that's, that's what I'm
saying when I'm thinking about just having this bit of bit of
time off. I think you, you can't, you have
to enjoy it and you have to be doing it for the right reasons.
If you're going out hating, hating every session and not
enjoying the process of it, then you're not going to get anything
from it. You have to enjoy the process.
You have to not outrun your love of, of running and you have to,
yeah, I'm not saying you're going to love every second of
it. But if, if, if the end goal is,
is the only thing that you're going for, you might find out
that when you get there, it's a bit disappointing.
And so I think loving, loving the process and enjoying the
process of getting there is the bigger part of the journey.
And it's only been. Two 2 1/2 months since she did
backyard up in Gosby. I was your your marvellous crew.
You did a stellar job. You had an.
Injury at the top of your foot and we taped it up and that let
you ignore it and you continue going.
How did that hold up during the spine?
I had a fairly. Similar issue, it seems to be
reducing. It was definitely lesser than it
was at Golfsby, and at Golfs way it was less than it had been
Highlander. So it seems to be reducing
although it's still there. Resting is something that gets
rid of it fairly quickly, but the problem being at backyard,
there's not enough time to rest. So I had strapping on it before
I went and I kept strapping up at each checkpoint and it it
lasted OK. I'm not sure whether that's
because other things were hurting more during the spine
and it felt it faded in the background a bit.
But yeah, the, the chafing and the blisters were definitely the
the higher priorities. So does it really?
Mean that I want to ask. Who occurred you better at
Goldsby, whether it was Alice or Mike?
I couldn't possibly comment on that.
There's only one right answer. In that row I'll I'll quite.
Happily say it was. Ours.
That's the right answer. Well, Mike also had the crew
Ivor, so he was he. Was doing a double job so he can
handle it's cool. I could touch his feet well.
That's what I mean. That's that's.
That's going above and beyond because Alice never touched my
feet. And last question.
Which from me, unless Mike's got anything else, should be a
relatively simple one. Hopefully for you, Ross, our
headspace taking on any clients. Yeah, we have a couple.
Of Spaces just now I've got a couple of inquiries that are
still sitting in my inbox that I've not got to because they
came through the week. But yeah, there's still a couple
of Spaces there for for anyone who's who's interested.
Even if you just want to get in touch and ask for some advice,
we can certainly help you with that.
So yeah, just get in touch on the website and and we'll see
what we can do. Well, Ross, that takes us to.
A close. It has been fantastic Chan, just
for me to say thank you Ross for coming on.
Thank you Nikki for being Nikki and it's goodbye for me.
Thanks Ross. Thanks.
Yeah. Thanks so much.
For having me, I'm. Hope always coherent enough
after lot less sleep than I'm used to.
You stayed awake. Thanks very much guys.