Hello and welcome back to another episode of Run Till
You're Done. Tonight's guest.
I had the the pleasure of racing against them I think 3 years ago
in Northern Ireland when I took part as part of the Scotland
team and our guest was there and he blew everybody away with what
he did. I hold my hands up.
I had not a clue at the time what I was doing.
So it was a learning progress, process progress.
But nowadays it's a case of I always say that never think that
you're the best at something because there's always somebody
better. And Keith is one person that I
look at that I'm good at backyards.
I know that I am. Keith's done more than me.
So tonight we're going to drill, drill him down to see what's his
secrets. Welcome to the show, Keith.
Thank you for joining us. Thanks for.
Having me on. Thanks for asking me to come on
and delight. The chat is without all things
running. So the first question that we
ask every single guest is how did you first get into running?
So I got into running, running with my daughter, putting her in
a running chair in 2016. So Alana had cerebral palsy so
she was wheelchair bound, she couldn't talk, she was paid,
fed, she was, she'd seen spastic quadrafedic cerebral palsy.
So we started running to aim for Dublin City Market in 2017 and
we are raising money for a wheelchair accessible boss for a
respite care home that Alan attended.
So we ran Dublin City Margin 2017 raising over €70,000 and
getting enough money for the boss.
But then about six weeks after that, Alana passed away suddenly
at home. Oh, that's how I got into doing
ultra Run. And then it was sort of started
to move on to deal with the death of my daughter basically.
And it helped me to a point. So it just got me out.
It got me thinking of me, feeling my thoughts and
basically going through every emotion.
When you're out running, I open the roads on your own.
And then it just got me into doing ultra running, ultra
marathon's, backyard ultra. So when you start to realize
that what saved your life you're actually good at, and then you
can progress within that, which is, you know, it sort of sort of
helps to like. So you obviously use that as a
tool to, I would say get over grief.
I'm not sure that you could never say you get over it, but
deal with it. Do you think it's helped you
deal with other parts of other? I don't know what but.
Yeah, I think doing doing ultra marathons, you know, I always
felt that the emotional pain I was feeling, I was never going
to feel that physically, you know, and that's probably how I
was able to push myself so hard. And so far, I think it has
helped because when you're spending that amount of time out
training and running on your own, no headphones out in a
field and the pitch black all hours in the morning, you know,
it builds up that mental resilience that you need to try
and try and navigate life through being a free parent.
And was Dublin Madison the 1st event that year in Children and
Wise? Yes, but so that was supposed to
be my first marathon, but what I had to do was, you know, to
build the confidence to do a marathon.
I ran a low key marathon down the country in Ireland and just
to make sure I could run it on my own first before I talk on to
push the chair. And I ended up winning that.
I end up coming forced in that as well just by sheer chance.
And so I suppose doing that sort of gave me a lot of confidence
going in to do Dozen City Marathon like, you know.
There's something that I've when my daughter was small, used to
push her in the the chair when running.
And something that I noticed was I had it in my mind that you
were almost leaning on the chair and that would take some of the
weight and it would be easier. Is not you're, you're pushing
it. Yeah, I, I got that too as well.
You know, people would say, oh, sure, easier for you because you
can lean on the chair. If you lean on the chair, the
chair will just go, yeah, you know, it's very back heavy.
So if you push it down, it will just drop to the floor.
And going in on the flat, you could run beside the chair with
one armed. I there's a picture of me just
running beside a wave and everybody with one arm and going
downhill. You just have to make sure you
didn't let go of the chair. And.
But going uphill is where all the pressure was, you know, like
anybody not pushing the chair, you can use your hands to propel
yourself forward. Pushing the chair you can't.
You literally have your glutes, your hamstrings, your calves,
they're taking all the pressure. I remember the race three weeks
before Dublin City Marathon. I went out too fast.
Obviously loads full of confidence, but they were too
fast and it was the last 6K. It's like every hill in that
race was in the last 6K and I struggled to the end.
I just delighted to see the finish line within that one.
But it's sort of, you know, it takes you back then to go right.
You need to be, you need to pace yourself properly when it comes
to do in Dublin, but not get carried away with yourself.
So it is a it was a good learning curve as well.
And but yeah, you're pushing. I think it was worked out around
40 kilos is what what? What you were pushing with the
chair, with Alana in it. And like, Alana was eight years
of age and when we done it. So yeah, she's both, both 40
kilos and all. That's what you're pushing.
And that was an incredible amount of money that you raised
for that to get that boss. Did you find that extra pressure
on top of the training to do well because you you were
running for the charity? Yeah.
So I wanted to get all the money raised before we done Dublin and
coming up to it, we were so there.
I think we're about 2025 thousand away from it and we
actually got anonymous donation of 20,000 and just came in the
post. It was, it was unreal, like, but
that feeling actually that feeling there, that emotion of
getting that hitting that target, you know, going into run
the race, going into Dublin, it was that extra like, you know,
this is what we've done, this is what we've created.
And the support we used to get at races, the support we got in
Dublin was absolutely amazing. Like it was something I've never
felt before. And the thing about it was that
everyone knew who Alana was, you know, And that was the whole
thing about this was that we got Alana's name out there and
everyone knew her, you know, and she had a smile and everyone
used to call her name. And it was, it was absolutely
amazing, like. These still get recognized for
that if you do. Like if you did Dublin Marathon
now, would you think they get recognized for what you've done
back there? Or nobody?
It's just you. You don't.
Nobody knows who you are anymore.
So in 2018 we were awarded the Lord Mayor's Mad for going back
to run Dublin in Alana's memory. So it's given to somebody that's
running the marathon for a, for a special reason or special
cause. And they also retired Alana's
number from Dublin City Marathon.
And what happens is then everyone remembers her at My
late. So we'd always put a picture of
it when we're heading in to do the marathon.
Like we pull up at My late, so it's on the way in and we would
put a we'd put a picture of Alana at that at that mile
marker. And so when people are coming
in, they come in the gates of the Phoenix Park and the mile
markers on the right hand side and people salute or wave or or
blast themselves or they were like, so yeah, an awful lot of
people remember that in in Dublin every year, which is
again, it's very heartwarming. That's an.
Incredible memory to have then for.
The, the, the next question that we've got down was to ask you
what your, your favorite race is.
But I'm guessing you've got a favorite right there for for.
Yeah. Different reasons.
Yeah, absolutely. And this year, well last year
was the first time I caught and run it because I was injured.
So it was it was hard to pull out of it, but at the same time
I, I went to my late and I stood there for a few hours to see
people coming through and the amount of people that would
shout, Call My Name and you know, and just say they were
thinking of a land and thinking to me and all that.
And you know, that alone itself was just, you know, was so much
felt so much more than actually going in to run at myself.
And I had a couple of coaching, a couple of people, couple lads
that were running the two, one fella, you know, he was running
for the very first time and I've seen him coming in to the finish
line. And that was just, it was
incredible to see and feel that like, you know, so not just
running it and still being a part of it was yeah, it's
absolutely amazing. So yeah, it would be my yeah, I
always say that it's a race that I'll always do, obviously until
I got injured, but yeah, the race that I'll always be there
for regardless. That's amazing when you had done
when Alana had passed and you carried on running.
Before we get onto the backyard ultra chat, did you go straight
into backyard ultras or did you do any other events distances
even like 10 KS halves ultra? Where did you go from there to
the backyards? So yeah, where the line would
have done 510 halves and a marathon, one marathon and the
plan was to do a bit more weather, but unfortunately we
didn't get that time. So I Justine there was a race
Dublin to Belfast and it was just like, you know, I don't
know what it was running South or north or sit in the city.
And that just really appealed for me.
And I think it just it just took my attention and it's something
that I just said right, That's what I want to do.
And I, I just done my whole, my own training plan for it and
just to build up the, the distance within a training block
to get there. And, you know, to do that I was
in 2019, March 2019. And to do that was, was
incredible. You know, again, we raised a bit
of money for that or we raised it for other kids with special
needs to help out their families and things like that, because
the services within Ireland aren't great and people have to
fight for everything. So to be able to donate, donate
money to a family that they can buy stuff for, for their child
with special needs is, you know, it's, it's very heartwarming
that we're in a position to do something like that.
So that's really, that was my, I suppose, my driving factor
behind doing Dublin to Belfast. And it probably helped that I
ran well as well. It's 172 kilometers.
And so going from marriage and death to 172 kilometers probably
wasn't ideal. What I had done a few months of
training for it like, so I was well, I was well built up for a
board. I finished third.
I think about 18 hours and 20 minutes for it, like so you sort
of go, right. I probably trained well for this
one. That's incredible.
And like, what is that in miles for the miles people?
A. 100. And seven yeah, 169 is 100
miles. Yeah.
And then you've done that. So how did you get into backyard
ultras? Again, it was just sheer sphere
tank because I had trained for Martinus Abbott and it was, I
was a month away from the race. I had a full train and block
done for it and the race was pulled because of COVID.
And so there was there was other stuff I was looking at and the
backyard ultra just came up. I was, I was actually booked in
to do at the time of Martin disabled, but I didn't do it
because it was too close to the race.
So once that race didn't go ahead, you couldn't really get
outside of Ireland. So I just said, right, I go back
to I go back and there's Florida Manor is when the first one I
did and 20s, I think it's 2021. And so that was the first one I
did. I just said I'd go up to that,
see how I get on. And just, you know, again, it
was just complete fish out of water.
Like I didn't have any clue what I was getting into.
And again, surprisingly enough, I done I done fairly well in
that as well. How?
How well did you do? I done 63 hours, a new Irish
record. On your first score.
Yeah. Did you have enough fuel for
that time or did I think you don't expect to run for that
length of time? I hadn't a clue what it was like
and my brother and one of my friends was with me.
And then I had a couple of friends that came up as well
through the time and my brother had to ring ahead to bring more
food and stuff up for me. Like because we were completely
like hadn't a clue. Like we didn't even have
anywhere to lie down. I had a if there was a chair
like I was sitting on and what I thought like even at 50 hours I
was like, I'm done enough for this.
And just walking up there, walking up one of the roads and
I was just going right. I'll just get around to the
finish line and I just call it a day.
Like I mean brother was like just lay down for a few minutes.
So I think I slept for about 8 minutes and got up and went
again and even them again the next lap was like, oh, I'm sick.
And it's like, you know. And he said right, I get around
to the finish line again and again just left for another 8
minutes. And after that it felt great,
just like I got to kept going 63 hours and I was still feeling
good like. And after your two couple of
micro 8 minute naps, that was it.
You were absolutely fine. That's absolutely insane.
Yeah, I can't believe how well I felt after it.
Like, and even the next day, you know, like you didn't really
when I went home that morning. Like I finished early out of the
morning and when you go home, you think you're going to sleep,
but you don't. Like you're buzzing then you
just, you know, you just your sleep patterns is all over the
place anyway. But yeah, you're just just
buzzing like, and you start to understand what you have
achieved. Like, you know what I mean?
Like I broke the, the national record by, you know, the
previous one was 49 hours and we went to 63.
So, you know, and then if you start to think right, where is
my, where is my stopping point? How far do I have to go before I
will call it a day? And I was finding it hard to see
that, you know, and like, as Mike was saying, like we, we've
done Castle war down into February and, and it was like
the weather was woeful. Like it was the portal started
off really small. You can avoid them.
And then they just, you just have to go straight through
them. It just, it was so badly.
And I'm standing on the start line at 36 hours trying to
convince Carl to keep going like he was, he was saying, I'm going
after this one. And I was like, you're only 150
miles. You stay for another 12 hours,
you get 200 mile claim. And I said, I stay with you.
And he was like, and that's the problem right there.
You'll still be here. So there was there was no
convincing. Then he just he pulled out then
after that like. A slight correction on my
numbers earlier, 175 is, as you said, 109 miles and it's 160 for
the 100 miles. Yeah.
So where were we? I've taken us off track.
But after that first one, you realise you're really, really
good at it. How many have you done backyard
ultras from then until now? Yeah, I think I've done 5 and.
What's your current record now? 89.
Wow, did you win that one? No second.
Oh. No, we had set, we had set a new
world record at that stage. So this was in Germany in 2022
in retiring Germany. Small little village in Germany.
It was absolutely amazing place. Like there's not a shop in the
place. There was one hotel and there
was one street with a few houses and that was it.
Like, you know, it was real. It was brilliant.
So same to middle of nowhere. But yeah, in 2022, I think it
was May 2022, I went there and it was to find my breaking
point. It was to find how far I can go.
And I knew there was there was people going to it that were up
to putting in big, big hours. And I was like, right, can I,
can I mix up with the the best in the world as such at the
time? And yeah.
And there was, you know, the hours sort of fly by like, you
know, like they just sort of the first day sort of takes on and
then the day start to run into each other like night and just
day just becomes all a blur like.
But then it ended up there was only five of us left and you're
sort of going 0, Jesus, like, how far can I actually go here?
And I'm starting to come up to my own record at that stage.
And I'm still feeling fair, fairly good.
And I started to run with Mori Mori, who's a Japanese runner.
He is. He's phenomenal.
Like he does the mad ultra margins.
And we started to run with him and he had done, I think he had
done 7475 hours in bigs previous to that.
And like obviously there was, there was no conversation
because he can't speak a word of English and my Japanese wouldn't
be the best. So we just, we just sort of run
together and we get to a certain point and we just sort of touch
hands and I'd go walking off up the up the hill and he'd just be
a bit slower. And that that happened a lot.
And on about 73 or 74 hours, he just came up to me at the start
line. He says I'm finished.
And it was only three of us left at this stage.
And so I was shocked, to be honest.
And I didn't know it was hard to go, you know, just how I felt
about it. Because when you spend so much
time with somebody, they're nearly like you're, you know,
that person that was there all the time is now not there
anymore to nearly get you through a part of the race.
But then also it's taken in that right, you're second the one or
two people now in this race at the same time.
The world record of time was 85 hours was.
Yeah, I was 85. So we were coming up.
We were 10 hours away from the world record at that stage.
I'd already broken my own Irish record.
And then it was how far I could push it out to from then on.
But it was, it got really, yeah. It got really fucking dark at
times. Really, really dark when the
hallucinations start kicking in and things like that.
And you know, like people saying like how you didn't bring my
phone, I wasn't listening to music or anything.
Like I only left them probably by two or three hours.
But thoughts that coming into your head, you know, if I get
lost up here, start saying to me prove and all, like if I get
lost up there, don't come looking for me.
And I don't remember this, but they said it to me after that.
Like, you know, I started to say things like this and I must have
been something that was playing on my mind that I'm going to go
up here and I'm going to hit nothing, not come back.
Like, you know what I mean? It's mad the things that go
through your head like. Since you got to your 49, has
there anybody in Ireland that has gone anywhere near your like
breaking 49? 89.
Well, no. When you passed the 49, now
you've got to 89. Is there anybody done anything
in between 49 and 89? So well, there was, there was
three other people at the time when we done 63, but in
Tennessee two years ago. So GV is a Filipino, but he now
has, he's an Irish reddest resident now for that.
He's done, I think he's done 81 in Tennessee, but at that time
he was running for the Philippines.
But he's now, I think he's now running prior.
So he's potentially would be the one to challenge it.
Other than that, the next to that would be probably the first
race I done, which was 6061. I think was the closest to that
since then and. You mentioned Tennessee there,
I'm taking it going to bags. What was that like?
It's amazing, you know, when you're like you're watching all
the YouTube stuff, you're watching it on things on Netflix
and things like that. And when you're actually there
meeting lies, looking at the race, it's it's mad.
It's crazy. You really have to pinch
yourself and go like, you know, you're at the World
Championships, you're racing for your country, You're among these
incredible ultra runners who have done the same, if not more
than I have done, you know what I mean?
And now you have to go to compete against these as such.
You know, backyard like it's you're not really competing up
until you get to the last few, but you know, you're just you're
in the corral with these amazing runners and it's like, right,
what can I do here? And do you think having laws and
all the other runners, do you think that puts more pressure on
you to stay in the race? I don't think there's anything
in in the on the planet that put more pressure on me that I put
on myself. No one whatsoever.
So I went there on probably not to train a block.
I sure I I would love like to do.
I had a few injuries coming up to that.
I was trying to train and then I I'd have to just ease back a bit
and then start again and ease back.
And so Tennessee probably didn't go as well as I wanted to, but I
was still happy with how far I got.
And it was the first time I've ever, I ever stopped in the race
and went, you know, I'm actually happy with how I done there.
And I did have it still have a lot of questions as to what
happened. My energy levels went, I just
couldn't move. I was sort of falling into
hedges. Not I was just completely out of
it, like, so I had timed out on the 7470 fifth lap and I didn't
make it back on 75. But you know, I rang the
coaches, said it to him and he says, kid, I was surprised even
got that far, He said. With the amount of training that
you had done, the preparation we've done, he says, you know,
it was to get that far was a feat in itself.
Like, so I had to take a lot from that.
But at the same time was still, you know, it's still lingering
there that I want to go back and I want to do better.
Like I want to hit the 100. That's that's my main aim is to
hit the 100 hours. I won't get back to bigs now
for, for this year. And because I'm only, I don't
need getting back from surgery, like surgery on my knees.
So I'm just trying to get recovered for that.
It's a slow process. So I just won't have time.
I was hoping to go to Dad Cow Gully and I think it's May or
April or May. So it's hoping to go to that
qualify and then get into Vegas brought over.
But unfortunately that's that's not the way it's lined out for
me. So as someone that's never done
a backyard ultra, where would you advise if someone like
myself is to get into it, which I'm pretty certain I will after
speaking to yourself and make us choking to get me into one.
I would have no idea where to start.
So like, you know, pace and fueling, there's so many factors
to think about the I think the first thing I would think about
would even be pace. So would you recommend like
running to 475052? What would be an ideal?
Because it's very strategical, isn't it?
It is. And the other, the other thing
about it is that there's no set elevation for a backyard ultra.
So some of the Australian ones and some of the Belgian ones are
flat, completely flat. Now they obviously 'cause their
own issues as well. And in Ireland there's majority
of them are probably 120 a 130 meters, there's some of them
down at 250 meters. So it's such an array of that.
So you need to sort of pick the race that is going to suit you
first, whether you want to go flat, whether you want to go a
bit of elevation, or whether you want to go all in and go 250
meters per loop. And obviously the more
elevation, the less time that people are going to be out
there, you know, the shorter the race is going to be.
And so, yeah, it's just getting time on your feet and getting
used to power, power walking uphill.
You know, if you build build a lot of leg strength, that's half
the battle. And again, at the same time,
it's when you're out for that length of time that you're
eating, you're getting fuel and you're starting to figure out
what what food works for you. And you know, within the
backyard you're going to eat more solid food because you know
you're going to be you won't have a lot of time to do that.
It's not like when you're in a Mart and you're not a faster
pace where gals are going to are going to do a few because within
backyard you're not you're not born enough glycogen to be taken
gels. So you need to be sort of mixed
up between sweet and savoury foods and high, high carb.
High carb food is what you want to be eaten rather than, you
know, sugar. And one tip that I did get from
you was your secret sauce. Almond fingers.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, 30 grams of carbs and one
small finger and that with a cup of tea at 2:00 in the morning is
the nicest thing ever. I'll just have it with a cup of
tea, just sitting watching Netflix because you're told me
to try it. That that's exactly what they
say about it. It's up to individual.
You have to try it beforehand. Because I'm allergic to almonds
and I don't like tea. Don't.
Get down at all well, do you do you do the simulations as well?
If you were, if you had an athlete that said I'm going to
do a backhell, do you get them actually practicing it for
certain length of time? Yeah, yeah.
And I do it myself. Like I remember when I was
training for what before I went to Germany.
And so there's a place near me, it's called the Hill of Tar.
It's an iconic place, but within Ireland, where the high kings of
Ireland live. But there's a 3.4km route around
and it's 60 meters of elevation per lap.
Why do 2 laps at that? So it's basically on the field
and it's black dark. So I do 2 laps of that every
hour. So I could do it in like 45
minutes and I'd sit in my car down for 10 minutes eating food,
drinking, contemplating life. And you just go back out again,
head torch on and go again. Now there's sheep, there's sheep
on the field. So the sheep start moving.
Like the fourth time went up, all the team was all these eyes
moving all over the place. I was like, what the fuck is
that? And when you got closer, it's
like just sheep. So it was like, oh, grand.
But every time I ran around, they sort of start running
everywhere. And then after a few hours, they
just stopped moving. So it was grand, like telling me
I wasn't where you're getting hit by your sheep.
But a brother came up to me and he had a sandwich and he had a
cup of tea. And he just stood there looking
at me going, he's what you doing?
I was like, Sean training for a race like I'm doing backyard
also like I'm training for this big race.
And he was like, yeah, you understand that.
But like 3:00 in the morning, like what you doing?
So he, I think he thought he was losing my mind, you know what I
mean? But I was trying to explain him,
like when you have these big goals and these you have to you
have to do outside of the norm of what other people do, you
know what I mean? So yeah, I tried to train
unconventionally with putting myself through a lot of, I
suppose completely out of my comfort zone and like running
around the field in the black dark with a head torch used to
freak the life out of me, you know what I mean?
So all you can see is literally what the hedge taught show you
and nothing else. And you're sort of thinking
going, jeez, there could be people in that hedge there that
are going to come out and what have, I don't know, your head
just takes over. But then someone said to me
going, you know, if there was someone in that head or in them
trees there and they're looking at you at this time in the
morning out running, do not think they're going to be more
freaked out about you rather than you are.
Damn. And it's like, that's probably a
good point. And that's a couple of things
that you've mentioned your brother, does he crew you on all
of your events? He would have crewed me on a
few. Yeah.
My older brother, yeah. He's, you know, he obviously
thinks I'm not, but at the same time he wants me to do well, you
know, he's very protective, but he's good at it as well.
Do you know what I mean? He knows me.
He sounds like a vote to him during it, but I don't, I know,
I don't know. I'm not cranky at all.
Do. You have any other crew that you
want to shout out? Not really just me, just my
brother and my friends really come up to crew me.
Yeah, but it like, look, it's hard to get people to crew you
because you don't know how long you're going to be there for.
You don't like asking people to take time off work.
It's you know, it's people taken away from their lives.
And I suppose you you probably need to have two or three people
to come up. And and if you're away from
home, it's harder again. If you're going abroad, it's
even harder again. So when I was going to, I was
when I was actually going to take how goalie this year,
there's actually a guy over there, he's Irish as well and he
matches me and he says like I can stay in his house.
He had crew for me. Like he was all in on this like
that we were going to going to get the world record, you know
what I mean? So something like that is
incredible. Like you know what I mean?
To have to have that, that the other side of the world, someone
is there going come on over. You can stay in my house for
three weeks, 4 weeks, whatever you want.
We have proof. Yeah.
Anything you want is there. You know, it was, it was just
incredible to chat to him, to Castle and just, you know, have
that conversation about, you know, the goal that we both had.
So I think it's when you have somebody that has the same view
on your goals as you have, it's, you know, it's, it's special
personally. And you said that you are doing
your simulation runs where you get out of the car at whatever
time in the morning after sitting down, but you've also
you've done eight in nine hours. How do you convince yourself
that you're going to do another yard?
We're in training. In both.
So we're in training. It's a case of right, if I can
do it here, I can do it in race where there's loads of people,
you know, there's No Fear of me sitting down and going on.
I'm just going to sit in the car and just do you know what I
mean? So if I can do it here, I can do
it there when I'm in the race. It's a case of I didn't train
for that many hours just to sit here and let it go by.
So there's the different contrast of of training and
racing. It's just a different mindset
but with the same thing of getting getting to that start
line at the top of every hour to go again.
And do you have your own sleep strategy?
Like, you know, you're going to go for quite a while?
Let's say, for instance, your first 24 hours, do you say
you're like have a 18, say I'm going to go for a quick nap?
Or do you just play by feel? I think if you're if you're
looking to go far, you need to start trying to get your sleep
in early. So what I normally try to do is
coming in today, coming into the night part.
So just before that when it's starting to get dark, you try to
put your head down, but it's very, very hard because there's
so many, so much going on. There's so many people still
there. You only will be maximum like 12
hours into the race. So there's still a lot of people
there and there's a lot of balls around the place.
But once you lie down, you try to just tried to just rest and
got going again. But as you go into night two,
night 3, there's no way she's sleeping, no one whatsoever.
You just go ahead and take your shoes off, whatever bottles you
carry and you give them to whoever's crew and you just lay
down and just gone. 5 minutes sleep.
And what I do as well. So I just tell them, look 5
minutes and they wake me up. Once they wake me up, I get up
straight away. I don't just lie down and just
give me a minute. It's like I get up straight
away. I sit on the chair and I'll,
I'll chat to them and we'll have a laugh, you know what I mean?
We'll try to get a better, a better crack going.
Because you know, being out on the course, especially when it
gets down to a few people, it stretches out.
So a lot of that hour, that loop, you're on your own.
So to have people, your crew there for 5 minutes or three
minutes just chatting here, just trying to lift your spirit,
especially at all hours of the morning.
Like, you know, that's what you need to to get back around.
And your career sounds really important to choose who's coming
with you. As you say, it's because you're
relying on them. Absolutely.
Like when I was in Tennessee, so sorry, Annabelle crew to me and
when it when we're in Tennessee. So I hadn't met Annabelle before
that and I was meant to go in 2022, but because of COVID,
obviously it didn't go ahead. And so she had contacted me to
say if I want to crew, she was able to crew for me if she was
in Michigan. So she had an 8 hour drive down
to Tennessee. So when it was going ahead down
in 23, I messaged her and I just said look, there's no stress.
I'll give you a forced refusal. If you want to do it, I'd love
to have you. If you can't do it, I
understand. And she said she wanted to do
it. So she came down, she had
everything like, I mean, everything I didn't, I had to
bring back all like. So we've just done a bit of a
shop and you know, we were talking on the phone and things
like that. But we were a couple of days
before that, you know, we started to bond as, you know,
friends and it was just amazing then to have her.
They are crewing for me and we're still friends this day.
She's come over here, I've gone over to meet her in England when
she comes over about all our family and that, you know, and I
think you create that bond together that you know, you've
experienced something that, you know, you're the only two people
that have experienced what we've experienced in our own camp.
You know, everyone has their own separate experiences.
But within hours and the laugh and the joking that we had
through the night, through the days was just, it was
incredible. Like, so I was so grateful to
have her there and, you know, for her to be the person that
she is to get me as far as 74 hours, which is a sad like even
even Marcus, my coach wasn't expecting me to go to.
Do you want to shout out who? Who coaches the coach?
Who is Mark? Marcus Marcus Smith So Marcus is
in our fight in Dubai. So I I first came across Marcus
when I was looking to do Martin the Sabbath, one of the guys
here said to me like he trains people for all the time.
So no better person to go to than somebody who does it all
the time. Like so contact them and he says
to me, you know, he has a if you, I was saying to him, I want
to run assault in three hour marathon just in 2019 as well.
And I, I hadn't run it so three hours at all.
So they want to run a sub three hour and he says, I tell you,
I'll come back to you when you're on a sub three hour.
I was like fucking correctly. So that that again, just right
goes, it's a challenge. It's that's a challenge to me,
like joining me. And so I end up, I ran, I went
down to Cork and they ran 258. And when I finished, I just, I
can text him. I go there, Yeah, there's your
fucking 3 hour bargain. So.
Hey, let's get started coaching for Bargain.
So going back to the backyards, few things about tactics that I
would say it's personal, but you, you said it's OK to ask
you. So we'll ask.
You can refuse to answer if you if you don't want to.
Sleep Strategies. Do you plan when you're going to
sleep or do you just sleep every lap?
Only coming into the evening I'll start trying to sleep and
then through the night I'll try to I'll try to go to bed asleep,
but generally during the day I won't.
But as bad as it goes on, you don't really have a choice in
it. If you're feeling like you know
you're going to sleep, you just lay down and you sleep.
What I tried to do 5 minute sleeps and then get up before I
before the 3rd the three whistles and I want to be on the
start line on the one whistle for one minute ago.
And the opposite asleep. How do you stay awake for the
lap? Do you use caffeine or anything
else? Yeah, so I take caffeine
tablets, only 50 milligrams, but like, you know, you'd be
swallowing them. But, you know, it's a case of
like, you're falling asleep when you're running as well.
You know, you're at one stage I was walking up a hill and this
was all hours in the morning and his walk up the hell.
And I remember his falling asleep.
And it's sort of you're bearing off to the side, but he was
talking away. And I turned to talk to the
person. I was talking and there was
nobody there. And it's like, jeez.
And so you just have to acknowledge things like that.
And you just go, right, I'm falling asleep, I'm
hallucinating. So you just sort of walk on up
the hill. But even in bigs, so the night,
the night loop is like the night went back and there's like 1-2,
there's like three turns and you can see head torches for for as
long as far as the races, But you start to see people veering
off to the side and you're just going, oh, they're falling
asleep. The the.
The recommended daily caffeine intake is I think it's 400
milligrams, but recommended not to run for 89 hours without
sleep. How much caffeine do you take in
a a day when you're doing a backyard?
I have no idea. I don't even keep track of that.
It's just like I could have a cup of tea, I could have a cup
of coffee, I could just when I'm feeling tired I just take
caffeine tablets, but I don't really.
I have Tailwind as well, which would have caffeine in it.
So through the night I'd normally drink that because it's
easier to take liquid carbs in through the night because your
body doesn't want to take like big, big foods at night.
So you try to do little food but more liquid carbs.
And then through today, you're trying to get your carbs in, but
you're never going to get as many carbohydrate in as you're
burning like when I done in Germany when I done 8-9 hours.
I lost 5 kilos in weight. I don't have 5 kilos to lose.
But I was like, it was the rash horrific, Like I'd gone really,
really skinny. But it's mad when you look at
the start of the race or the and of the race, how how much you
lose in nearly four days of running.
And when you have your sleeps in your wrist and you kick those
shoes off, do you have a shoe rotation?
How do you look after your feet for that length of time?
Yeah, so I, I'd have, I had two pairs of runners and I swapped
them every eight hours and my socks, they do the same thing.
Now joining is sometimes when, you know, you feel a blister
when you're on the loop, you get back, you completely forget all
about it. It's only when you put your
shoes back on your back out in the course again, it's like get
that blister. So you know, and if that could
happen 3 or 4 times in a row until it gets really, really
bad. Like at one stage my, like my,
my heel had three blisters on it and it was like my heel was
coming off. And so they forced all the
blisters and then we patched it up.
But one of the one of the lads was a foreign lad, He came over
and he had some cream. I hadn't a clue what it was that
he had it in his hand. He just started rubbing onto my
feet and I was like on, I wasn't going here, walk away.
It's amazing what people do within that setting of a
backyard. It's like all hygiene goes out
the window. Like you know what I mean?
They just and they'll help you out.
All the crews help each other. So it's that that unity of all
the crews and everything within within the race like, and I
think that's what sets ultra runners and cruise and all that
apart from any other sport. It's the whole camaraderie and
the people that are there wanted to do well for you, like you
know what I mean, and nothing else.
I think maybe famous within this running scene is you're not
allowed to double dip. I think certain creams you dip
it there and then you put it on and then as you say, hygiene
goes out the window. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another question we had was
pacing. Do you have a, do you want to
come in at a certain time and how do you make sure that you do
that? If you do like do you go a pace?
Do you have markers where you have to be?
How do you? Yeah, I've, I struggled with the
mindset of going over 50 minutes.
And I think that was through my detriment within Germany, that
if I come in over 50 minutes, I'd nearly start to panic.
So I'd like to come in around 4647.
And I think it gives me enough time to do whatever I need to do
and get a rest, get food on, have a chat with people.
Yeah. So I think when I was in
Germany, I think my average time was 46 minutes.
And that's about it was about 100 meters of elevation.
And afterwards, when, when you've gone home and you've won
the race, if you hear a whistle, do you get PTSD?
No, I don't get PTSD. No, not at all.
I see like some people, some people would like I've heard of
people like blowing whistles or putting a whistle on their on
their phone to wake them up. But like, Oh my God, no, like
like even training, I won't even go with sleep in the training.
I sit in the car and just look out the window like and eat food
and just get back out and go again.
Like if it's lashing rain, it's obviously that that harder to to
get that mindset to get back out again.
But you know, as they say, Danny lies.
It's like if you can do it in shit weather, you can do it
anytime. Do you know what I mean?
And instead, when there's other people around, just cruise
around, there's other runners around.
That makes it so much easier again to get out there to do it
again. And when, when you have
unfortunately said right, I've had enough and somebody else has
won the race, do you regret it? Germany, yeah, that was the
biggest one for me, like because it was the first time I stopped.
We had broke the world record. I was second in the world and I
was devastated. And it's a terrible way to to be
like, because you know, how many people in the world would love
to be in that position? And I feel, and even to this
day, I still feel I had a moment of weakness and I turned back
because I don't think I was in that bad a state.
Now, Look, that's OK Saying it now.
And in that race, I could barely breathe.
I was barely eating food because I blisters on my tongue, my
throat. Yeah.
And that at that point in time I was fucking dying.
I was at that. But yeah, I still regret that
turning back at that time. I still think I had 100 hours in
that race. And if I had of expressed how I
was feeling to my crew at the time, and I think I would have
got to the 100 hours. The whole thing about I'm going
to get lost up the mountains was playing on my mind.
And yeah, there was a lot of things that was in my head that
I wasn't expressing. And I think communication with
whoever's crew in which at them times is the is vital.
Because within within the backyard, you're going to have
points in the race where you have depths that could last
35810 hours or you have to be confident that it's going to
come back again. And it does and normally does
full circle, you know you're going to feel shit for 5 or 10
hours, but when it comes back around, you'd feel great again
for another 5 or 6 or 8 hours. So you just have to be confident
that is going to happen. And like in Germany, I didn't
even think of that at the time. And I think I just had a moment
of weakness and I just, I just turned back.
And even when I turned back, when I came back through the
through the finish line, I was, I knew I'd made wrong, wrong
choice. And you say that that was when
you made it wrong choice. Has it been any other times that
you've made the same choice and stopped?
How, how soon afterwards? Is it, as you say, on the finish
line I should have kept on going or is it the next day?
And so the only other one I stopped in was Tennessee, and I
timed out on the 75th lap and I was struggling for a couple of
hours and I wanted to get to daylight, which I did.
And then two hours after that, like the humidity was insane,
the heat, it was all just the fact that I was losing so much
salt. I was getting a lot of chafing.
And as we were saying there, like, you know, all hygiene goes
out the window like a time, like when you start off and you're
chafing, you're covering yourself with a towel, you're
washing yourself. From that point it was like I
came in trousers off, just washed it down, putting on stuff
just to stop the chafe and like, and I was in agony.
So I was losing an awful lot of salt and if you feel on your
face and everything and I just wasn't be able to get it back.
And that's, I think my energy levels just are gone.
And when I finished that I like, I was devastated because I came
in when I didn't come in and I cut across the the loop and I
just went straight into the tank.
I didn't even come back around to the finish line.
But it was cameras there And when the camera fellas got seen
me and he starts out and I was like, oh, so I went in to our
tent and I was lying on the bed and they came in with the camera
and I was like, I was just like, I just got up there and went
out, out to the start line, went out and I spoke to lies.
He pat me on the shoulder and I tell you, it's like it's one of
the worst part from the shoulder you'll ever get, but one of the
most humbling. Do you know what I mean?
Like, you know, well done. But you didn't, you know, you
had a bad laugh and that was it. But it was an absolutely amazing
experience to be there. And I think it was only when I
sort of took myself away from that, went back to the house,
got something deep, got a bit of a rest, was still watching it on
TV. Like, you know, it was mad
because we were there only a few hours earlier.
But I think it just said in that I was happy with how much I'd
gone. I don't think I could have done
a whole pile more than what I did.
So to have that feeling alone was was really going to be
considering the last the time I stopped before that in Germany,
it was horrific like so to have that feeling of being content
and being happy with how far he'd gone was, was what?
So round up this section of the interview of the backyard unless
Mike has any more. I've got more questions I was
going to ask. Have you got three quick fire
tips for anybody you? No, no, you're, I'm going to
butt in here. This is a homage to David Pato
Patterson on the Backyard Podcast.
Have you got 3 ultra running Backyard ultra running tips?
Have I Oh God, I think like you need to train unconventionally
to be to go far in the backyard ultra.
You know, training is a massive part of it.
Being out for hours on your own is a massive part of it.
Not even listening to music, listening to getting in tune
with your own body of how far you can actually go.
Don't quit in the chair and always get out.
Get out to the start line and go as far as I can.
I made myself and Annabelle made a pact that it was her job to
get me to start line, my job to get to the start line, back to
the finish line again. So that, like I said, that
worked. That worked really well.
So get someone in your crew that has the same aspirations of your
goals as you have. And my last it's good enough.
My last question before I let Nikki move us on is you might
not know the answer. Back in October we had the World
Team Championships and the All Irish team had to stop their
race because of the weather. I think it was a wind had made
the National Trust. Yeah.
Yeah, so they had. They had to stop the race,
abandon it. I was under the impression that
they were going to do a race later on to decide who won the
ticket to Biggs. Do you know what happened with
that? I have no idea.
I know there's a lot of controversy around it because
they knew this was going to happen before the race even
started. They would not move the race
from where it was and a couple of lads had actually stopped an
hour or two before that because they knew the race was going to
be stopped. So the race was supposed to go
ahead, supposed to start again from that point, but we're only
the lads that were left. So the people that actually
pulled out because it was going to be stopped was like, so why
do they go another loop? But I know it's going to be
stopped. They wanted to be allowed back
into it again. So I know there was a lot of
controversy around it, but I don't know where it's at or
what's happening. It's quite possibly not not
going to go ahead. Like I don't know if there will
be an Irish participant there in October.
Unfortunate for for the people that had trained to get that
far, but absolutely what happens I guess.
Yeah, like I was, I was coaching a fellow that was on it and he
said like he was out there to go his furthest and got to that
point and he was really, really pissed off.
Like, so I think he's just said I've been off for that.
Like, you know, but like this is backyard running because doesn't
matter what race you go to, you still don't know how long it's
going to go for. Like it could still go for 10
hours. You could win at a 10 hours.
You could still be there 48 hours later.
You could be there 60s. Like that is the beauty of
backyard. We just have no idea how long
you're going to be there for, so you have to be prepared to go
home after 10 or go home after 50.
I think you have to be prepared to prepare for the unexpected.
Yeah. And that's just unexpected.
Exactly, I think that's that's why it comes down to the whole
mindset of backyard, you know, because you know, if you go in
with the mindset that right grand, I get this done in 48
hours, you know, you could be setting yourself up for failure.
So it is building that mindset of I'm just going taking it one,
one hour at a time, 1 loop at a time and that's it.
And just be prepared to to be there as long as as experts,
however long that takes. But Nikki, now you might move
on. So next question that we've got
is really excitingly, recently you joined forces with Wild
Heart Runners coaching. How did that all come about?
So I would have met Kaz at the same race we were at.
Mike was in Castle Ward and now at that time I didn't really
know Kaz, but she contacted back as my coach because she wanted
to do the that the the women's UK record, which he did And and
she was messaging me at the time.
And then since then we've just been got on really well.
She come over here then to do that race over here.
And when I went up to give her a hand and help her help Scott and
that crew for her. And, you know, I was doing a bit
of coaching. I knew her and Debbie had
started the Wild Heart Runners coaching and just, you know,
just as conversations go on and she just said, look, would you
be interested then I was like, we have a waiting list.
I was looking to take on more people.
And, you know, she said, look, would you be interested in
coming in? I said, yeah, like having the
expertise of herself and, and Debbie, it's fantastic.
And even to have people to bounce ideas off and, and chat
about things, you know, because I, I believe that, you know,
just because you've done it doesn't mean it's going to make
you a good coach. And I think, you know, trying to
pass on what I've done on to someone else.
You know, it doesn't work like that.
You know, it doesn't give you the thing to, to, you know, I
know everything about it because I, I absolutely don't.
And I still do courses, I still, I, I'd have a lot of imposter
syndrome around as well. Like who am I to be telling
people what to be doing or how to train to do things like their
sports. I think it's about building
confidence and, and instead having Debbie and cars there as
well to, to run things by, have a chat about, you know, it's all
it's, it's all very positive. So yeah, really, really happy
with with the decision I made and hopefully going forward.
I'm actually over in Scotland and go on Friday.
So we're going up to Glencoe on Friday, so on Saturday morning
for a few hours and then I'm back over then on the 17th of
May because we're doing a simulation backyard and then
I'll be doing a presentation as well after that.
So that's 17th of May. I think we all, all three of us
will be there on the 17th of May.
So if any, any big podcast fans want to meet us, then we'll all
be there, right? The next question was about
running achievements. What?
What would you say that your biggest running achievement is?
Like, I suppose the expectation would be, you know, being second
in the world at one stage, but it's not, you know, to run a
marathon pushing my daughter. You know, you're part of a very,
very, very low percentage of people that ever get the chance
to do that. And I think to be able to do
that, and you know, that was something that started me on
this journey of where I am now. I would never have started
running if Alana was never in my life.
It was a thing that came up because we are fundraising and
to be able to do that was absolutely incredible.
Like, and I'd give nothing more than to be able to do that again
is to push her in the marathon again.
And that leads on nicely to the next question as to why do you
run? Is that still your?
Why? 100% yeah, like Ronan saved my
life from was the the start of Alana passing away.
You know there's visions in your mind that you never you'll never
get out. But Ronan has helped me to be
able to process a lot of what has happened in my life, the
process, a lot of feelings and thoughts that I have, you know,
like when you feel when you're a father of a child that passed
away, you feel like it failed. And it took me a long time to to
get over that, that you let her down.
So, yeah, Ronan has, has been, I suppose, the catalyst to get me
to that point. And when you're, when you're,
you know, you're starting to achieve a lot as well, it it,
you know, it helps with all that that you've got, you're on the
right path and you're doing something you love.
And, you know, I was injured there.
I haven't run, I haven't raced in a year and a half.
And I'm only getting back running now.
And, you know, I sort of stand to understand why I love running
so much, you know, because when you're not running, you know,
things can get on top of you a lot more than than they normally
would grant you'd be in the gym and things like that was just, I
don't feel it the same when you're out running.
Like it's, you know, you're out in the air.
You're you're, you know, you're sort of you're just enjoying it.
You're just enjoying it. And it just makes things a hell
of a lot easier in life, I think.
And a question that I get asked quite a lot is what do you think
about when you're running? And I don't just mean racing
training. You interpret how you will.
Yeah, so I try not to get caught up in, say, work stuff.
And I spoke to people on this before.
Like people go out, so say the great running and you know what?
They start thinking about family life, work life, and you're
going, that's not what you're out there for.
You're out there to try and move all that aside and it's time for
yourself. It's time to process your own
thoughts. It's time time to process your
own feelings and your head. Your head can take can take over
a hell of a lot of times and make things a hell of a lot
worse than what they actually are.
So if you can take that time and run like I start, I've run
without headphones now as well so that you can actually
experience that feeling within your body.
And I think once you can start experience the feelings and
start a name, what feelings are coming up for you that is going
to help you heal anything that's going on inside you and and
things that are coming up for you.
And I think if we were able able to look inward a lot more, we'd
probably stop reacting a hell of a lot more to things that come
up in life. And as we discussed earlier,
you've already been to Tennessee, which sounds like the
Backyard Ultra Runners dream. Is there any more dream races on
your bucket list? I would love to do the Barkley.
Yeah, I would love to do it. Now, there's only a few ways
that you can get into it. And winning in in the backyard
in Tennessee would have been one way to get in, you know, But
unfortunately I wasn't there long enough to do that.
So yeah, the dream race won't be to do the Barkley, but to do do
it justice as well. And not just go to make up
numbers either. Do you know what I mean?
But it'd be, it'd have to be prepared.
I, you know, I'd have to do a hell of a lot of training and
navigational stuff and things like that.
And one of the guys here in Ireland, he has done it and
he's, he's an extremely good Mountaineer.
And we spoke when we were in Verona, we are over for the 24
hour European Championships. And we were talking and he was
saying, he was just saying to me like, you know, if you ever
think of doing it, he'll he'll help me to prepare for it.
So I probably will take him up on that on that offer at some
stage. In case anybody missed, our
previous guest was John Kelly who has just done the the fun
run on the person to get that far.
So you got big or he he's quite small shoes to step into.
He's just, it's just getting tougher now every year, isn't
it? After 5 finishes last year, it's
I'd say it was, I'd say it was a tough one this year, especially
when you when you see what John only got the phone run and that
was knowing what everyone else got to round, round to.
Yeah. Next question is, it can be a
difficult question, but I I think we possibly already know
the answer if if there's anybody alive or not, fictional or not,
that you would like to run with, who would it be?
Oh, sure, yeah. It'd have to be with my daughter
Alana. You know, there's so many great
memories, whether I run around the Phoenix Park, training out
in Dublin city, Martin route. And even now, like when I'm
working Dublin and you sort of drive onto part of the route,
you know, it brings back some kind of memories of that day.
She was so happy when we were out running and she'd normally
just fall asleep anyway. But, you know, it was just that
startling feeling and that sort of bond that we had had together
that sort of would have, would have brought us a hell of a lot
closer. So yeah, it would be be just to
be able to get out and and push my daughter again and running to
it would be amazing, yeah. And to round things up for the
interview, what is next for you running wise?
So I'm trying to get just get back running now.
So I had a tear in my meniscus. So I had surgery in January and
it's still niggling a little bit.
Now I'm trying to get back from doing bits and pieces.
So what am I doing? I'm doing Dingle Marathon in
September during Dublin March. In October I'm hoping to do a 24
hour on New Year's Eve into New Year's Day and so they do it
here in Ireland as well. And then next year I hope to do
the the Irish National Championships in the 24 hour.
I want to get back, I want to try and qualify to run for
Ireland again the 24 hour. So I need to sort of get my
distance up on that and and go over the distance that I have in
24 hour will be the aim. But I think, as Nikki said, that
rings us to a close. And I'm just going to say thank
you, Keith, for joining us. Thank you Nikki for being Nikki
and it's goodbye from me. Goodbye from me.
Thanks, Keith. Thanks very much.
Thanks for asking me on and it's a real pleasure to to Jackie.