Hi and welcome back to Run through Done podcast.
Today's guest was a competitor at the recent Biggs backyard
ultra. For those that don't know, Biggs
is like the world championship for backyard running.
He qualified by winning Singapore team championship in
2024. He soon became a fan favorite,
not only for being a really nice guy, but we found out he grew up
in Scotland, so how could we not like him now living in Bali?
He tells us. Just a minute ago we thought he
was somewhere else. We'll we'll find out that he is
a bit of a globetrotter, but if you follow him on social media,
you'll see that he had a A poetry race report which was
great to listen to. So here, here's my little
tribute to Ned. I call it on the hour in
Backyard Ultra. There is no roaring crowd, no
maps, no finish line, just a loop, a yard, a lap, the same
one over and over. How long do you take?
One hour is what you get. The blows of the whistle 3 21
The ring of the bell. How long before it becomes your
personal hell? Most runners fear that place,
but in backyard, it's inevitable.
Sometimes welcomed for all except one.
This is run till you're done. And tonight we welcome Ned
Phillips. Welcome to the show.
Mike at well, first up, Mike and Nikki.
Great to see you Mike. What an intro Wow, let first of
all the poetry. You know, I do write it and I
read it to hear someone else do it.
That was lovely man, that was really cool.
Thank you for doing that. You said I'm a nice guy, but you
only just met me. Who knows, like let's say we'll,
we'll we'll, we'll we'll find out together.
But I you know, at in backyard, it's last calls it a family.
You know, almost everybody you meet at backyard of great
people. I think it is inevitable when
people are doing this type of thing that they are good people.
But yeah, thank you, Mike. Thank you, Nikki, for having me
on. I appreciate it.
Thanks for coming on, Ned. No worries.
Or anyone who hasn't heard of you yet outside the starting
corral at Biggs, which is probably most of us.
How did you end up in Bali now? I was going to say Singapore,
but you, you decide where you are and tell us what happened.
Well, you know, physics decides where I am because I am where I
am. But yes, I did represent
Singapore, but you know, just because, you know, you're both
in Scotland and, and I'm not saying this is a Scottish show,
but it's where it kind of comes from.
I grew up in Scotland, so a bit of globe fighting.
Born in Australia, grew up in Scotland, so in central
Scotland. You guys know central Scotland
well. Near Sterling, a small town
called Mucket. I grew up there.
Like a pretty idyllic childhood honestly.
In a cottage outside a small town called Dollar.
Went to school when, funnily enough, someone asked me when I
started endurance training and we lived about two miles from
school and from the age of four, I walked two miles there and two
miles back every day. Not a long way, but that's six
KA day from the age of four. So, you know, a wee bit of base
training and you know, went to university in Scotland left and
I found myself in Hong Kong in the in 19.
I'm 58, so 1990. And so my career just ended up
being out in Asia. So, you know, happenstance ended
up here and my running started in Hong Kong.
I don't know if you know, but Hong Kong's one of the great
running cities of the world with the most amazing hills.
So I spent time in Hong Kong, moved to Singapore 20 something
years ago, had a life there, two kids, kid moved to America and
with the, you know, invention of video calls like we are, and I
work online a lot. I live in Bali, moved just about
a year ago, just after I won the Singapore satellite Champs.
I'm a Singapore resident, so I I represented Singapore because I
was living there. I go backwards and forth between
Bali and Singapore, so I hope to represent Singapore again.
But yes, that's why you find me in Bali today, which I feel
super grateful for. And you say you had the
endurance training since you were four years old.
What was it? How, first of all, how did
backyards come to your attention?
And then did the want to go to bags come soon after that?
So actually you made me think what I thought Is there
something in Scotland called the Oak Hills Challenge Hike?
Does that still exist? The Oak Hills Ultra 50 and the
hundreds exist might do you know anything else I'm.
Not sure about the the other one that you mentioned but.
So in the, let me get this right, in the, in the 70s and
80s, there was a 24 hour hiking competition, teams of three
starting from either Sterling or Tilakutri on the foot of the Oak
Hills. And at the age of 16, we, we a
team of three of us, we won it, but it was walking just like the
long distance walking. So I suppose I started ultra
then how did I get to how about bigs?
If you're familiar with something called trail Walker,
it's quite a well known Mackelhouse Trail or trail
Walker. It's 100 kilometre run teams of
four that started in Hong Kong. And when I lived in Hong Kong,
Hong Kong's known as this big city, but it's got the most
amazing hills coming right out of the city.
And trail running's been there since the 90s.
So I started running back then. And the reason I knew Biggs
early, I mean, I've been ultra geek for 30 years now, 35 years.
I started when I was 26 in Hong Kong.
And I used to get Ultra Running magazine posted to me like
before the Internet and back then when Barclay was a thing,
you know, before the Netflix and before people.
I knew lads when he was Gary didn't know him, but I had the
magazine because he is Gary Cantrell.
And so I followed Barclay before, you know, kind of before
Internet. Then it got more well known.
Then the Netflix documentary came and you know Biggs has been
going for I think since 2014 or 15 or maybe 13.
Just to let you know guys, if you went to Biggs the first
year, 18 Luke's won it better one.
Biggs didn't get there in time. Add an extra 100 no.
Exactly. I mean, even 5, four years ago,
it was 60. But to answer your question,
Nikki, it was locked down in Singapore.
You know, everyone had their own version of lockdown.
We weren't allowed to run more than one kilometer from our
houses. I may or may not have broken
that rule, but let's not get into that.
And I saw on Facebook quarantine Backyard Ultra, which was
basically on the treadmills in your bedroom, 2000 people rocked
up to it. So we're all going to zoom.
You've got to point it towards your treadmill.
And I'm like, Oh my God, we get to run.
And I ran 21 loops on my treadmill.
So 140 ish KA13040K in my bedroom.
I came I think 38th out of 2000. And I they had 20 people on each
screen. And I got to the last two
screens. I'm like, Oh my God, look at
this. So I I found it then and was and
I knew it was Las so that's how I found it.
Nikki did I think I could get. I didn't think I could get to
bigs honestly. But then the satellite champs
came and Singapore's not a deep nation.
We don't have we have a couple of superstars, one guy who's
done 72, but I've been in the team. 3 * 2020 I came 6th. 2022
I came third and then 2024 even though we had a guy who had done
70 I, I heard he was a bit injured.
I had an inkling, so I would say Biggs percolated my mind from 24
onwards. And what's your winning that
team championships? How many yards did you win it
on? Skin of my teeth.
Not because it was skin of my teeth, it was skin of Laz's
teeth. If I can explain.
I won it on 26. I my best before that was 28.
I know 26 is very low On the 26th lap.
Joshua who was our king of backyard in Singapore, he's done
72 at Biggs in the 23 champs. He did 72 loops at big
incredibly good. But he said, look, Ned, I'm I
don't want to go back to Biggs in 25.
I am injured. There was only me and him left.
And he said on you go on 26. And honestly, I think I probably
on that day I had 303540. Remember it's 30° and hot there.
So I ran 26, finished one. I thought I'm going to bigs.
This is amazing because I'm the champ.
Las only let's 50 countries come.
There were 67 countries, so it's only the top 50 countries.
We were 49th. Oh, doesn't matter if it's by an
insurer Mile, you're in. We'd add to that if you'd only
done 24, well 23, you wouldn't have been allowed either because
you have to done 24. 25 I think was just about the the cut off
and there was a few people in 25 and it came down to, I don't
know, time or whatever. But if Joshua hadn't done that
one more loop sent me on my way. I could have thought I was going
to Biggs only to find out I was the 51st nation.
I don't even want to think how much I would have cried in my
bedroom if that would be true. Would that have hurt more than
doing bigs? And yes.
Yes, yes. I mean, look, I'm a just by
nature, I'm a fanboy. I, you know, again because I'm
old. Back when Scott Durek won seven
Western states, when Andreessen won, you know, Scott Durek came
to Hong Kong to race a race. And I'm I'm so I really, I could
be naive. I was a fanboy of Lance until
turned out it wasn't quite Lance.
So, but I've been a Laz, you know, the idea that I would,
that I won Singapore and then didn't get to go and see lads,
yeah, that would have broken my little heart for a while for
sure. And going in like you've just
won you, you've, you know that you're going.
Were you curious? What was the mindset?
Were you curious, fearful, confident?
How did you feel about going to it?
I I've, I've, I've made a lifestyle of being delusional.
So I go there believing I can win.
Of course I don't win, you know, bar toss and fail and, you know,
but, but, but I also have a goal.
It's weird. I know I can't do 100.
Like, let's be clear, you know, I'm, I wasn't the oldest person
there. I was the oldest man there.
The oldest person is Jennifer Russo, who is 59 and at 59 years
old, she did 74 loops at Dead Cal Gully.
So Jennifer Russo did 74. So but what was my mindset when
I won the race? Just Christmas.
I'm going to go and meet Santa Claus.
I've even written a poem about Laz being Santa Claus.
Like it was this is Christmas and it's Christmas everyday for
the next year. So I would say Mike, when I won,
it was utter joy. Like like, Oh my God, like this
is amazing. I'm not part of my story is I
then you know, I don't drink, but I eat crap.
So I one of my Scottish DNA is I like cake, sugar, tablet, fudge,
all the stuff I shouldn't eat. And so I let myself up till
Christmas glow in the fact I'm going to see last And then I got
injured January, February, March, April, May didn't barely
ran. I got, I have sciatica, so I had
a numb leg and I'm like Mike, I was really disappointed.
I thought I wasn't going because up until May I hadn't really
run. I'm barely running 2030 KA
month. I was running in a pool really
quite despondent. So I had exhilaration,
despondence. And then I got four months of
maybe 500 KA month, 120 KA week, 100 and 10120 KA week.
And then I was believing. So excitement.
Despondent belief. I, I did you go over things like
sciatica or just the, the thinking that you're not going
to make it. How do you get over that?
I, I, I'm, I in the moment. I didn't get over it.
I was just sad, you know, I, I'm quite good at living in the
moment, but I'm also either happy in the moment or sad in
the moment. So I was quite sad in the
moment. I have a little LinkedIn
following that I've built being a start up sales guy, but I
built around ultra running. So every week I gave my running
thoughts and I was doing a video.
I do these videos of me and I'm running in a pool.
I'm literally running up and down a pool.
I'm like, I I don't want to tell you guys, I'm running up and
down a pool. This sucks.
I suck, Everything sucks. And I was going, I had a back
operation 15 years ago to cure sciatica and it worked, but it
comes back. So how did I cure it?
I swam a lot. I did some exercises.
I had belief I was about to get an steroid injection to stop.
But it, it just, I don't know if the magic Pixies at the bottom
of the garden allowed it to get a bit better cuz sciatica's
quite delicate, the nerves either touching or it's not.
But as I ran in the pool and as I was patient, come June, July,
I started doing 50 KA week and the leg wasn't numb.
So then I did 60 KA week and the leg wasn't numb.
And I'm like, oh, and then I'm like, you know what?
I'm not going to swear on your shirt, but I'm like, F it.
I'm just going for this now. I've got July, August,
September. Let's just go straight to 120 KA
week. I got up at 4:00 AM every
morning. I swam first.
I ran 20K, average 25 a day, weekends 50 or 100K.
I'm lucky in Bali because there's a lot of digital nomad
and Jim Bros here. There's sauna ice bath
everywhere. So I have a sauna ice bath right
next to me. I think I pay £70 a month for as
much as I like. It's like total killer.
And so I saw the ice and then I also dropped 10% body weight.
So I did not eat cake or biscuits.
I went from 80K to 72 in four months.
I went all in for a 58 year old dude.
I went all in on what I could do while still working.
And yeah, that's how I got ready.
And with the physical side of you getting ready and getting
rid of your sciatica for the psychological side of it, how
did you train for that? Nikki, I'm so this being my 30,
whatever year in ultra 30, I think my brain's pretty good.
I really do this. Nothing's going to stop me at
bigs. I mean, I when I run, I mean, I
truly, truly, truly tell myself I'm going to win bigs.
Like I, I don't, I don't if you follow Courtney, you know,
Courtney Dawater, she talks about this privilege of being in
the pen cave. There's no, there's no herd in
the pen cave. But for Courtney, it takes so
far to get in there. And I, and I subscribe to that.
So I always believe it's such a deep privilege to be in there.
So my psychological hurt is when I can't run.
Nikita, the hardest thing was January, the May.
Yeah. You know what?
You know when you're injured guys and you drive down the
street and you see another runner and you look out the car
window at them despondently because they're running and
you're not? That's what kills me.
You know, watching backyard videos.
That's what kills me, the mental preparation.
I of course, at some point your brain will let you down, and
we'll talk about it at Biggs. I'm still replaying whether I
had some mental let down there. But no, as soon as I'm running
again and I feel strong, I don't need to trade my I need, you
know what, I need to prepare, Nick.
I need to calm myself down. I'm so excited.
I I I get overworked up and that's the issue.
I think that wastes a lot of energy.
You know, Mike, maybe, maybe. But I tell you a funny thing.
I was at a doctor a while ago because about 6, I don't know,
10 years ago I had some other issues and she she looked at me
and said, and I talk like this, she says, which ADHD medicine do
you take? I said, oh, I don't and she
talked to me for a bit and then she said would you like some?
And I said no, I like who I am. I understand it can be a lot for
other people. And Mike, to your point, does
that energy, and again at Biggs, and I'll tell you, I actually
think about it at Biggs, you know, you can't change who you
are. Do I think I lose some of that?
Yeah, Mike, I think I do. I think there is a more focused
version of Ned that probably could be a little bit better.
But you know, it's I'll take it for what it is.
Yeah, Yeah. I think you might, you might
lose the energy going into it, but the excitement that you're
bringing to yourself, I, I think that adds to getting over the,
the pain, the suffering because you are being smiling, being
happy gets you through it. I, I think so.
I think so. And you know, we all approach it
with different points of view. And actually at Biggs I, I have
to seems weird. I, I'd love, I spoke to Harvey
and Phil and Mishi Bagman and Evo and love it.
But I also, when I race, I try not to speak to people as much
as I want to because I realize they do have to be focused.
And focus is a weakness. You know, maybe the lady with
the medicine and the doctor was right.
But anyway, focus is a weakness for me.
You know what though, Ned, I like the excitement and it
sounds like you're channeling it and the best way that you can.
So I'm just going to need to find a bit of that off you
because my excitement gets to the point as detrimental so.
I think it, you know, it's my dad is very he's 90s very
excitable. Dude was a professor at Sterling
University of the brain, so a neuro neural network scientist.
So he studied the brain and in his words, because he he's even
more excitable than me, which is hard to and he still runs.
He's actually the park run champion in Sterling info until
let's not get into it until Parkron took away, took away age
graded record. So let's not, let's not stumble
down that path, which is lunacy. But anyway, different point.
He was the champion. But my dad has this word that he
believes he is over adrenalized. So the part of his brain that
puts adrenaline is works overtime, which genetically
maybe come to me different phrases of what that is.
And it's just part of who I am. So yeah, I don't need to work up
the mental excitement and think about not stopping.
I have to try to figure out how to how to allocate it in the
right places maybe. So then when you got to bags and
you ran, did you have a low loop?
And if you did have a low loop, how did you get out of it?
Good question. Loop 17 or 18?
I couldn't get calories in for a while and I'm good at getting
calories in so I don't know if you've.
I, I assume you know David Roche, you follow his high high
carb, high calorie stuff. I've, I've always been a good
eater. Like I can eat quite a lot.
And I also I often think about ultra running as a eating
competition with running thrown in.
As we know, backyard, particularly Luke 16/17/18.
I was trying to get calories in and my brain started to not
spiral, but get a bit of despondent.
You know, you go imagine you go the way the bigs and I don't
want to say only do 18 because I don't want to be respectful,
disrespectful to that. And look, my 28, I was the
second lowest ranked guy there. So you know, I'm not putting up
big numbers. But I knew in my head that like
if something had happened on loop 18, first world problems
being sad or big, you know, in the big world, you know, Boo
Hoo, but I would have been sad. And you know, Nikki, I was like,
oh, I was out on the road loop and it was night.
I don't care about the night. It's raining, but I was feeling
pretty weak and I was like, crap, man, if I don't get some
calories in soon, I'm good at being in the moment.
I've slightly different story. I had a start up that blew up
massively lost everything was a, it was a, it was a storm.
And I learned to disassociate from your effort and in the
moment, just do your best in the moment.
So I managed to refocus and when I got back, a magical tin of
rice pudding appeared and that rice pudding, you know,
sometimes when you run backyard, some food appears to you and
you're like, you hadn't thought of it before.
I, I gobbled down an entire tin of rice pudding in like I only
had 4 minutes. That loop all down felt like
gold. So and then apart from and maybe
we can talk when we come to the end, talk about how big's ended.
For me, obviously the low moments came towards the end,
but that was from a different point of view.
I totally get that because when I had the biggest race I've done
so far, I had a magic banana and it helped.
I was going to say I, I relate to you for the you're not saying
that somebody else's achievement of 18 yards is not good.
It's you expected more from yourself for the team
championships? I was in the UK team and I
stopped at 33 yards because I was injured.
But I I'd went into that expecting to do 3 times that.
So it was just the, I think part of the preparation for it.
You've got to convince yourself that you are capable of more so
you're disappointed in yourself. You're not worried about what
anybody else thinks that you're capable of or what you're
disappointed. You're disappointed in yourself.
And Mike, I don't know if I mentioned this, but I'm and now
you say it. I watched the documentary.
You were in a documentary right about that.
And I remember seeing you talking about it and you know, I
can even though we didn't know each other then obviously you're
capable of more. I can see that, you can see that
and I can feel it. I, you know, but, and this is,
we talked about football just before this, you know, Ultra, if
it was easy, they'd call it football, right?
You don't know what you're going to get on the day.
And that's the beauty, you know, if you turned up and knew what
you were going to get. But yeah, now you mention it,
Mike, I recollect watching that and I felt that little bit of
heartbreak for you as well, because we've all had races
where we know there's more and for whatever.
Hey, look at Biggs. I saw Bartos get disqualified.
I saw, I saw Sam Harvey drop out.
I saw Lucas. And I, I mean, I literally
passed Lucas, you know, as he was having the issues.
And, you know, Lucas has done 116 and he's dropping out at 18.
So we know one race doesn't define you.
But does that it still means in the moment?
Yeah. Yeah.
You you feel sad in the moment. Yeah.
And at begs, most people don't get to experience bigs because
you have to qualify, you have to be the best to get there.
What is there a a defining thing that you would say about bigs
that people just don't get, don't understand?
How can I can I make it two things, Mike?
Because I you. Can make it as much as you want.
How absolutely compact Biggs is, You know, it's obviously we know
it's not Western States or UTMB where the parking lot is at
Biggs where his, where the tents are.
It's tiny. It's tiny.
I thought it would like it would be a lot of stadium.
You come around the corner and it genuinely is the driveway of
Lazer's house, but genuinely straight up, it's the driveway
of Laz's house. His house is a bit further up
and it's, you know, slightly bigger than the driveway.
You can't park there, nothing by the road.
So I think what you don't get about, I mean a lot of people
don't get about bigs, is that of course it's the heartbeat of our
sport and where it all came from.
But it really is so grassroots. Like it really is just a little
road off a Tennessee Rd. I'm not religious, but it felt
spiritual. And I think if you're in
backyard, the feeling and the and the reason I say that is
once you get there, you know, Laz talks about backyard family.
I mean, there's no prima donnas here.
Like the kindness is outrageous. The the reality that for most of
us, we can't believe we're there.
Of course Phil believes he's there and Sam and Lucas and
Batos and Harvey. But I was in the tent next to
Harvey right there. You know, I don't get to play
football with Messi or or tennis with Federer.
Like and I get it. Our sport is tiny and that's the
other thing about Biggs is there's no prima Donna, there's
no somebody's over there. You, if you can get to Biggs,
which I know and I say I got lucky, you know, 26 was lucky.
It's a really moving experience beyond just the physical effort
being on that hallowed turf. And we can talk about the
course. I have some thoughts about the
course, but separately, well, just these people are just
outrageously nice. That was so cool.
I think in most sports the closest people will get is being
in the crowd. They they don't get to be part
of the same sport as what the professionals, the the elite are
doing. And and also because it's
backyard, you know, if this was UTMB, you know, I could go to
Chamonix, but then, you know, Killian and Francois and Jim
would run off into the distance obviously because they're
faster. But here so far, like nobody
runs off into the distance because we all go in loop.
I get back to the tent with Harvey on the 1st loop.
Phil, you know, or go, he runs a slow loop.
And on the day loop, I was doing 56.
I came in with Phil on the 1st loop and I said to my crew, holy
crap, I came in with Phil. Maybe we're going to win this
clearly not true. So.
When I'm not too familiar with the backyard scene, this is more
Mike's thing, but it's something I've I've done 5 loops of my own
so far, which was it was a gathering of friends where wild
heart runners and it's quite tough I found.
But I know that when I've been to watch my carton event at
Highlander, does the whistle Does begs not have that?
Is it a bell? No, no, we have.
So we have the whistle. So it is 3 and three minute
whistle. Yeah, 3 whistles with three to
go, 2 whistles with two minutes to go, one minute and then the
bell rings and Laz 2 Things about Laz, rules are the rules.
That's another thing with begs and you maybe saw some of the
DQ, but last tells us at the beginning, I do not want to
disqualify you, but I will. There's no Gray line here.
You're not either in the corral or you're not.
And not means 1 foot out. Once the bell goes, you start
moving, you don't move, you're out.
And as you saw with Bartos, he came and Bartos Fudali, who was
the Polish runner who on Loop 61, came back, went to his tent,
sat down before he crossed the line, came back out, crossed the
line, got no aid. Laz disqualified him because the
rule is once you start a loop, you must finish the loop before
you do anything else. So yeah, Nikki, the the three
whistles, 21, then the bell and the other thing, 114 hours.
Laz rings the bell every hour. He doesn't go anywhere else.
He might have a sleep in between.
He rings the bell, dude, it's 71.
He rings the bell every hour while smoking a cigarette.
I mean, he's a legend. I mean, that's a lot of packets
of cigarettes, I would imagine. You know, last today, and I
don't know if you know he walked across America when he was 70.
He's about to walk from Utah, Colorado, San Fran.
He was a 119 half marathoner in back in his 20s, so he was a
genuine quality runner back in the day.
He's got endurance. But yes, I don't know how many
cigarette packets he gets through Nikki, but he rings the
bell every hour. I put on a backyard for my
running club where I, I'm the race director people.
Oh you, you can't be running it because you'll just win it as
I'm not running it. I'm race directing it.
Don't worry about it. I put it on to encourage them to
get involved and somebody went on and became part of the
Scotland team this year. So it it works.
But two things that I noticed you said about Laz's the the
race was small. It was almost like home grown.
That's exactly what it feels like here.
The the race starts in my back garden.
So it's that sort of feel about it.
And the the other thing was I this year, I think it was one in
17 or 18 hours and I run bail every hour.
And that was hard enough just getting up for the ever.
So I would rather be running it. Las does say that because
there's a lot of pressure, you know, he oh, the other thing to
say what you don't expect, even though it's small, Las has this
incredibly committed team behind him doing tech, doing media.
I'm sure you guys watch some of it.
I mean, how good was the YouTube streaming quality of bigs, the
race results? So here's a guy called Naresh on
tech. He has Stephanie, who actually
we just interviewed on our own podcast doing media, had a guy
called Tracy Outlaw who does it. He has a good and bad Mike who
do the timing and interestingly, bad Mike.
I don't know why they're called good and bad Mike, but bad Mike,
he tells Laz, Laz 30 seconds until the three minute whistle.
So people make sure and Sandra, Laz's wife.
So while obviously Laz is that figurehead and he rings the
bell. Yeah, Mike, you, you know the
other thing people don't expect. I don't know if it's 10/15/20
people behind to make bigs because even though it's small,
you know it is the world champs and we've got to put on a great
show and there's a lot of people making that happen.
Yeah, one of the people that was doing the commentary was Eric
from Russellbach. I'm wearing a Russellbach
T-shirt right now, so. He he, he was indeed.
He was in the media tent with Stephanie making all of that
happen. So with the whistles and the
bell, when I visited Mike, I've seen two or three loops and the
whistle done my head in after the second look.
So how did you cope with the whistles and the bell?
Was they get any trauma after that?
You know, PTSD, Yeah, I love backyard.
I actually. So the answer is no.
And the answer is I miss it. So I don't get PTSDI, get the
opposite. I miss it.
Why? I love reality.
I love my life, love my family, my wife, my everything.
But when I'm in that, let's call it alternate reality, I don't
want it to end. So when the whistles stop, it's
the end of that adventure, that journey.
And I think it was, I can't remember, the camera came to see
me. I actually didn't know that the
camera was like live streaming. I thought they were recording
things for later, but it was going out on YouTube and they,
and you know, I said to them, I don't want this to end ever.
Like I I'll just keep doing this forever.
Like you can ring though, you can blow those whistles and ring
that bell and I'll get up and run.
It's not that I didn't want to go back to reality, even though
I said I didn't want to go back to reality.
It's not that I dislike reality. I just like this alternate
reality. So no, I I'm looking forward to
hear those whistles and bell again.
And thinking about your race strategy, did you have a, a loop
by loop? You know Phil Gore, he, he has
everything written down and I try to do the same thing.
Did you have a I'm going to do this on this loop.
I'm going to be fast loops, slow loops.
How did it? How did it work out?
I am not AI am. So the answer is I'm going to
say not really, no to a degree. I had certain times and you
know, I'm certain what I'm going to eat.
But you're right, when you look at Phil Gorsten or Harvey
Lewis's, it looks like a permanent dwelling.
They've got beds and cupboards and not fridges, but larders,
staff and there's spreadsheets and I've got like a table and a
chair and a bit of chaos. So but day loops, 56, the day
loop, I don't think it's hilly. I'm going to get crapped on for
this because it's hilly. It is a hilly course, but it's
very trippy and technical. 56 for the sorry yeah, the day, the
trail course and then 5253 for the road night, which became the
day course. As people know it rained and we
didn't go back to the trail. I'm trying to eat 400 calories
an hour. I drink Tailwind lack of gels,
which is my cruise gel company, lack of gels.
I eat a range of stuff rice puddings and fruits and stuff on
there some protein powders. I have a shirt strategy.
You may have seen a bigs. I wear running shirts.
I don't run it like a button down shirt.
I had a Hawaiian shirt for the 1st 12 hours to tell me to chill
like don't rush. I had a donut shirt for the 2nd
12 hours to remind to get calories in.
I had my Plaid my work shirt like my checked shirt for the
next 12 hours to focus to get to work.
And my crew has been to Western States as as a brand, brand guy,
and he brought me a Western States champion shirt with NP
written on it, Ned Phillips. And I was going to put that for
the next 12 hours to be a champion.
And if I got through Luke 48, I would start again.
He would have washed them, rotated them.
I got to hour 40. So I used all four shirts.
But it does affect my strategy. I know it's not as clinical as
Phil's. Maybe that's why he's a champion
and I'm not, but still. So when you rotated your shirts
you should have put back on the doughnut 1, so do not drop out.
Oh, I'm going to. Oh my God, I'm going to have to
use that. That is a good one.
Yeah.
It's but, but I think it speaks to them, to the mental reality
of this. You know, for a lot of people
there, they really are the best in the world.
Look, I'm not trying to be humble or whatever.
You know, I'm now I have 40 loops.
I'm actually ranked 500 in the world, which I'm super grateful
for and I feel good. But when I went, I was ranked
two and a half thousandth in the world.
But I got in there and I was running with the best in the
world. You know, Bartos, Fidali, Harvey
Lewis, Phil Gore, all of these guys.
And I think when you see them, they do have these dialed in
absolute. Phil would run 3 fast, one slow.
Harvey, his rhythm, I mean, Evo who came was unbelievably
consistent. So you do start to see the
really top people of this sport doing it.
I mean, I have aspirations to go further and maybe not as far as
them, but yeah. But having a mental strategy
that knows up until this time you're doing X, up until that
time you're doing Yi could see the greats with that what what I
perceived as their mental strategy.
And what's your preparation on the lead up when you got to the
actual event? Did you have something that you
absolutely nailed and got right? And did you have something that
went completely wrong? What a cool question.
What did I get right? I, I, I mean I enjoyed, I think
I got right that I didn't take this for granted.
I want to go back. If I go back, I will be the
first 60 year old to ever qualify.
And when I go back at 60, I want to No 60 year old's ever done 60
loops. So I have a dream to be the
first 60 year old ever to do 60 loops.
But let's be realistic, I qualified in Singapore.
When the best guy in Singapore has done 72, he was inch.
I did 26. So I've either got to win
Singapore or as you know, get on the at large list for people who
are not sure what that is be one of the top 25.
It rolls down a bit 3040 most yards in the world probably and
Mike have been interested in your view.
It's probably around 80. I think it's going to be for
next couple of years and I don't think I can get to 80.
It rolled to 60. So one thing I think I did
really well. I mean, I I save it every second
of this. I gave my all.
I went to the racecourse on Thursday before you're meant to
go to set up on the Friday. I asked it Laz and Sandra if I
could go. They said yes, and I just sat at
the event. No one else was there.
I just sat in Laz's car park and hoped he might drive past.
You know, I was just I'm like, what else am I going to do?
Go to my hotel room and watch backyard videos?
I mean, there's, you know, might as well.
What did I do wrong? You know, you know, I stopped.
You know that's what I did wrong.
I'm proud of 40 loops. I really am.
But you know, and and you know, again, Nikki, I know you're more
new to backyard. I know Mike.
And to ask you this, I mean, or to say this, Mike, you know,
every backyard you finish, you know, you, after a while it
dribbles those thoughts into your head.
Could there be a wee bit more? Did I give up?
I don't think I gave up easy. I mean, I really, I think I went
to the wall. As I said in my little poem, I
am the wall. I went to the wall.
But I think I got a few things wrong at the end with just
mental clarity, with sheer desire.
I mean, I have deep desire, but maybe what you know, Harvey
Lewis broke his ribs and ran 12 more loops.
Harvey Lewis went to ER with fluid on his lungs while running
for another day. You know, I watch people pass
out unconscious. I'm not advocating we all do
that, but I have some pretty high standards for myself and
I'm super proud I got to 40. I could have dropped out of
3435. Forty was a magnet in that.
It pulled me, but then it repelled me.
It pulled me because I feel quite proud to get to 40.
I think 40 is a decent number, particularly at Biggs, but when
you get to 40, it repels you from going further because
you're like, yeah, you got 40. I didn't give up.
I tried really, really, really, really, really hard, but yeah, I
got it wrong. I stopped Nikki and I shouldn't
have. Yeah, I've done I think 13 or 14
backyards now and four of them have won.
So eliminate them. Nine of them I stopped too
early. One of them, which was the team
championship I. I stopped because I was injured
and 14 months later I can still feel the injury, so it was the
right choice to stop that. Was the right choice.
That was the right choice. So that there was 9 yes, I
moment of weakness I stopped and hopefully I've gotten over that
and. But but, but, but, Mike, that's
it. That's the beauty of backyard.
Because you strongly believe you, learn you, you know, Mike,
you. Each time you stop, there's
something in there, right? Yeah, you can stop for good
reasons. You can be done.
Like done. Like totally done.
When I did 28 loops in Singapore, I was done.
Now I was done because I'd fuelled incorrectly.
And when I stopped in Singapore on 20 or Luke 29, it took me 17
minutes to go. OK, now I'm done, right?
Like now down to my head could have done that faster.
You know, I actually watched Stephen King's The Long Walk,
the movie. I actually don't think it's a
great movie, but that's actually backyard 3 miles an hour if you
stop, it's a horror movie. You actually got shot like in
the movie The Lady. You know, I wonder what I wonder
what they thought. But you know, that's the only
thing I would say now is that I'm interested, Mike, in your
view on this. When I got to 28, you know, I
did 28 and when I went to Biggs, I said to myself, if I stop in
the 20s, I'll be sad If I stop in the 30s, if I'm in the 40s,
I'm proudish of that. In the 50s wild dreams.
Now I've got to 40. I can see 50 like I can, I can
see 50 and I'm dreaming of 60. Mike, what do you I'm I'm
interested in that view because I think for all you know, the
when I met 100 yard people there, Sam Harvey, Harvey Lewis,
they can see 100 and 3040 now. But when you look back only five
years ago, 61 bigs people couldn't see it.
You know, like the four minute mile.
As soon as it's broken, everybody's let's let's go.
That's what you learn, I think from the ones you stop.
It lets you visualize a little bit further.
Yeah, what what I say to people is stopping earlier than you
thought you had to moment weakness, whatever it is, as
long as you learn from that, then it's OK.
You can get over it if you, if you've learned your mistake and
fix it next time. But yes, a lot, a lot of people
say don't set a target. I say do set a target, but your
target should be hard to achieve, but just achievable and
no more. So I, I think I'm capable of say
100 yards that that scares me that I probably not be able to
sleep the night before because it scares you that much.
But if you don't set it, then you're not going to achieve it.
There's a there's a great running philosopher called
George Sheehan who wrote running philosophy back before we had
running influencers. He was a running influencer back
before it was a thing. And he one of his favorite
essays. He wrote short one page essays,
kind of where I learned to write running poetry from.
Don't reach for what you can, reach for what you cannot.
And I love that phrase, you know, let's reach for what we
cannot. It can't be crazy.
Cannot. It can't be like, oh, I'm going
to fly. Oh, you can't.
So that's not happening. But you know, Mike is, it's not
impossible 100, I get it. 100 is wild and scary and now they're
in. But backyard particularly, I
think you've got, you see, might, you know, there's a long
debate. Have a goal, don't have a goal,
you'll stop at your goal. But if your goal is wild, then
it's OK. Don't, don't think you can do 10
and have a goal of 10. Yeah, that's, that's to me
that's a No 10 and put out 24 because that's like 100.
So. And I've noticed a trend, most
people who really improved their PPE improved by about 50%.
So mine was 2850% would have been 42.
So I went from 28 to 40. So you see I'm delusional.
I convince myself I can go from 40 to 60 now.
Yeah, easy done. My maths works.
But I think whatever you've done before, you can at least do 50%
more at least and then dream bigger.
Do you think having people like Phil and Harvey and Batos and
Lars and every, the whole bubble so to speak, do you think that
had a massive contribution to carrying on and just the buzz
from it all? 1,000,000% absolutely.
I couldn't have been more excited to do it there.
I couldn't have been more focused to do it there.
I think it does. I think, you know, only 72
people get to step there and no spectators, only one crew member
per person. No one else can be there.
I mean, it's hallowed turf to be in that corral when last stood
at the beginning. And 72 of us hover.
And it's a crazy thing. The tents are all set up.
We start at 7:00 AM at 640. Blaz gets out his spray can and
marks the corral. Like, he literally marks it 20
minutes before we go. And he just does it with a spray
can. Like, you know, the tents are
there, the media's there. And he sprays it.
And he says stand inside the line.
And when you get in the line, you're tight.
And when I stayed inside the line, I was standing because
Phil does a slow loop. I was standing with Phil and
Harvey, you know, how can you not want to give your best?
And when I beat my best at Biggs, you ring a bell and I
beat my best 29. And I think, I don't know, maybe
because I am excitable about it. Maybe because I'm a sales guy.
I talk to cameras and like, I do a bit of speaking for life.
Maybe because I had stupid shirts on, like donut shirts, I
don't know. But the camera came up to me and
asked me how I felt about doing my best here.
And I burst into tears because it meant that much in that
moment, you know, and happy tears, of course.
But it really did. I'm like, and I said to do that
here in front of last and these people and my crew, Marcus, who
had made it, you know, I think, you know, I always want to give
so much love to my crew because I think I'm not doing what I did
without that. Yeah.
I don't think I was doing 40 anywhere else.
Do I now think I can do more of because of course I do.
But I, I think going to bigs and being in that environment,
nobody gets to bigs being half hearted about backyard.
No one's there like, oh, you know, I, I got a ticket for the
London Marathon. I just did it.
No, no disrespect to the London Marathon or anything else.
Everyone inside that little corral.
I mean, it's Christmas Day. It's straight up it's Christmas
Day. Well, Christmas Day, Boxing Day,
the next day, 27th for Phil, it goes to almost to New Year's,
right? He has a whole week of fun.
And when he was spraying the corral, that was he smoking.
Was he smoking less smokes to start with?
Less smokes? Yeah, yeah, he doesn't smoke.
He's not a chain smoker. I don't want to make that out.
But he'll smoke a few, a few an hour.
You might not know the answer to this because you were busy
running, but given how much it rained, how many times did he
have to remark the corral? So it's a very good point.
I don't know because I was running, but it seemed to be
from what I could tell because it didn't it didn't splodge out.
I think he has some indelible spray marking so it seemed to
stay solid the whole time from what I can tell.
And you mentioned 80 yards for the at large list.
I'd probably agree with that. I think this time round we
thought it was going to be 82 and because of visa problems and
stuff it dropped down to in the 60s.
So I would imagine two years time you're you're looking 80 at
least to get there. I, I think so.
And if we look at at Backyard, as we mentioned before we
started recording the first time at Biggs, 18 loops won it and
there was only 20 people there. It's been going for maybe 12
years. Then only five years ago, 60
loops won it. This year I think 40 people got
to 60 loops or 30 people, I'm not sure if you saw the numbers,
but over 1,000,000 people watched the live stream,
1,000,000, right. So obviously on and off, on the
hour, on and off, they watched the live stream.
There are 600 backyards around the world.
And Mike, you have a backyard from your garden in Sydney.
They have 500 people in it. It sells out immediately.
So more and more people are going to come.
Yeah, I think, I think it's 80 this year and I think it maybe
rolls into the 70s, but Laz isn't going to change the number
of people at Biggs. It is 50 + 25.
That's it. So yeah, I think it's only
getting hotter. Yeah, there there was talk of
moving it somewhere else or I don't know what.
We'll just have to wait and see. Oh my, oh, I would break my
little heart. Oh no lads, lads, lads, don't do
it. Lads, if you're listening, don't
do it. So I was an Iron Man.
I wasn't an Iron Man. I did Iron Man before this went
to Kona and when they moved Iron Man, I think you might know the
history, they took Iron Man away from Kona.
I mean guys, I, I have spewed on Facebook to Iron Man
Corporation. I even wrote to the CEO.
I'm like, dude, and I don't know if you ever saw, but about six
years ago, lads and April Fool's joke sold Barkley and Backyard
to Iron Man for a dollar. He said it was a good deal to,
to sell to these wonderful business people.
He sold it for a dollar. It was an April Fool's joke.
I, I just, you know, that lads was passionately understood that
the visa situation sucks and it's not fair that certain
people and I don't know if you know, the Pakistani champion
Jamal Saeed has twice won Pakistan and twice not been able
to go. And that's not fair, you know.
But hey, look, just my view. I, I cannot imagine why the day
course is iconic at bigs. It is rolling.
I don't think it's, it's, it is 144 meters per loop.
So it's hillyish, but it's rolling.
You can trip and fall in this rocks and everything.
And the night loop, the road loop is long and it's beautiful.
It's amazing. I just, I just don't see why we
would move it. I, I know there are people who
would like and again, including Phil Gore, who has said on a
podcast he would be in support of it moving.
I hope they never do. And you say that as well, sorry.
Make it Las if you're listening, Las if you are listening, please
come on the podcast. I think the advantage for your
point of view, and I probably agree with it, certain companies
that you may or may not have mentioned are in it for the
money. They're corporations.
Las is not. He's doing it for the love of
the sport, so I think. I look and and I had this
incredibly lucky. So I finished on 40 hours, went
back, tried to sleep, didn't because I'm all messed up blah,
blah, blah. But you know, there's another
60-70 hours of racing. So I stayed around and for most
of that time I was at the campsite.
Las is not a guy you just take time from.
You don't just take his time. He wanders around with his own
aura, but he's an incredible guy in between 1 loop, I think it
was loop 80. He rang the bell and he just
wandered away from the start line and he happened to stand
next to me. We had a one.
We had a one hour conversation, me and Las, I mean as a fanboy
of it, I, I, I was in heaven. It was amazing.
And I asked him, well, as you must know that this backyard is
is a thing now. This fire is not dying like this
is the thing like it's growing and and it need and this
commercial. And he said, look, I have a
team. I understand, I know it's
commercial. We're figuring it out because
hey, look, somebody else could just start AI was going to call
it run till you drop. You know, somebody could start
their own 6.7 K race format, right.
Phil Gore was talking about a professional league.
Does everybody have to come under Biggs, You know, and we
had Stephanie Gillis Pollard on the show who runs the media for
Biggs. She did not say this.
She did not say the names. She said our show just last last
week was called, is this a UT MB moment for Backyard?
She said sponsors are knocking her door down now.
She said there was a million views.
Sarah Perry, Like Sarah's. Sarah's.
Sarah, if you're listening, I don't think you're going to be a
teacher much longer, right? Sarah's innovate the amount of
sponsorship. Sam Harvey's a full time runner
now. Brands are knocking.
The there is money coming. I don't.
You know, we all like money. Does money help soulful sports?
I don't think so. Is money coming to bigs and
backyard? Yes.
Will it ruffle some feathers? Yes.
But it's Analyzer's pragmatic. He's a bright, intelligent,
pragmatic dude. It's complex, I don't know where
this goes, but you're right, money will take this sport
somewhere and I hope as much as possible in a good way.
I think as you say though, like with the money and lies being
the way he is, I think that's the appeal with Barclay as well,
because it seems so top secret and it's what, a dollar
something for the entry. That's the appeal of it.
You know, it's so hard to get into the I think people do like
that. So I think it would be a shame
if they did commercialize it too much.
Yeah, but, and, and I agree it's $1.60 and so the entry for
Barclay is $1.60, a number plate taken from a car in your country
and whatever item of clothes Las wants that year.
So he might ask for a shirt or some socks or something.
So Las gets clothes and you know, and you know, at backyard
he's wearing the white shirts that he gets from Barclays.
Oh, it's too funny. Like it's all too hyper
connected. Of course.
Do sponsors want paid in, you know, socks?
No. But you know, when Iron Man
started, it started because a runner, a swimmer and a cyclist
in Hawaii or in California, I think in Hawaii said, who's the
fittest? And they were getting drunk in a
bar And they said, well, why don't we put it together?
And then 12 people turned up on a beach and they got drinks from
711 and they did a marathon swim, which was the Waikiki open
water swim. They did their round Honolulu
bike ride, 112 miles. And then they ran the course of
the, of the, of the marathon. And the reason it's called Iron
Man is that John Collins, the guy that invented it, created a
trophy. He found a nut like a like a nut
from a car. He got a coat hanger and bent
the coat hanger into the shape of a man.
And he said whoever wins gets the Iron Man trophy.
Every sport started from a soulful beginning.
And you know, John sold that to somebody for a million or
whatever. He sold it to somebody who sold
it to private equity. Now I work in finance.
I'm not going to crap on private equity, but for the money, not
for the soul. We then sold it to a huge
conglomerate. And you know who owns UTMB?
Iron Man, right? So would Iron Man buy Backyard
one day? There's money coming for
backyard. I mean, this sport appeals to
non runners, 1,000,000 viewers. There's more viewers watching
this in UTMB. I think.
I don't know that for sure, but I think and if you're a, if
you're a normal human and you don't run, what are you watching
UTMB or Backyard? You're watching backyard.
It's way more entertaining because every hour and in this,
in this world of social media storytelling, I mean, I think
Backyard's going to be huge. Yeah, I I would quite.
Confidently say it's probably one of the fastest growing
sports. If you don't, if you say it's a
different sport than normal, normal running, then it's one of
the fastest growing sports in the world.
Yeah, and that will attract money and but it's still a
great, you know, it, it is. It's the appeal, it's the
greatness. And you know, there's everything
from bigs to somebody who just runs one loop.
Unbelievable. And getting back on our
questions, no, actually the question before that, what was
your most the moment at Biggs that made you the most happy?
Was it running bigs? Was it your our conversation
with Laz? What?
What would it have been? Wow.
I mean like I read questions. There was this singular moment,
a big slap. 6 or 7, so super early on the day course.
People describe the day courses. Beautiful.
It's in the forest. So it's, I'm not going to say
it's just a forest, but it's just a forest.
Just to let you know, that's a, it's kind of like a lollipop
course. You go 2K out, 2K in a loop, 2K
back. Laz owns all that land.
Like it's not just in his back. He owns that forest.
That's Laz's forest. It's Laz's backyard loop 6 or 7.
So I was on most of the day loop.
I was lost because I'm the slowest and quite often it's
twisty, turny. And I distinctly remember Mike,
it was about two KN. I couldn't see anybody.
There was nobody there. I'm stone cold lost and I never
panicked. I have enough confidence in
myself. I knew.
And I remember thinking a earlier version of Ned would be
panicked and run up and, you know, younger ego as a young
man. Oh, I got a show and and I was
just cruising through the forest on Lazar's property with no one
else insight. And I'm like this duality.
I'm literally just by myself in the forest.
No one can see me. And I'm also at the world champs
at the same time. Like I'm running, I'm doing both
like I'm doing both and I'm lost, but I'm not panicked.
But I remember Lazar's voice. You know what I'm you know what
I am. I'm lost and 1st because
everyone's lost and 1st until you drop out, right?
So I'm both lost and 1st and I remember, you know, as you can
tell I'm excitable, an emotional guy.
I remember thinking Oh my God, this is beautiful.
And it was on this. It's funny you say this because
I haven't really thought about it was on this downhill bit that
was actually quite smooth. A lot of it has got lots of
trippy bits. But this I've described Biggs
course as a mountain bike type of trail.
It's up, down, flowy, turny. This was on a beautiful down
towards a Meadow. I was just having a beautiful
run in the forest and I was like, this, this is beautiful.
Yeah, I felt super special. And still at Biggs, because
we're all, we're always at Biggs in the mind.
Is there anything that you've learned about yourself that you
you didn't expect from Biggs? That, yeah, that, that, that
I've used this word and I, I actually hadn't used this word
much before so, and, and I now use it repeatedly.
So if you ask the question, what have I learned about myself from
Biggs that I didn't learn before was that I'm grateful.
It wasn't that I wasn't grateful before, but when the guy, the
the amazing camera crew asked me when they put the camera on
face, how do they feel? I said I feel grateful and I
really did. I felt that at 58 that I'm
healthy enough that that are 58. I still have an ego and I want
to compete and I want to do great, that I have family that
supports me. It really struck me how lucky I
was to be there. And in my other life.
I had a start up. I mean, it went really big.
It was like start up of the year in Singapore, big huge tech.
And then it liquidated. It shot, lost everything, right.
And you know, I went to a pretty dark place from that.
And to have come back from that. I now have a fry thing Little
business by running works. I had five months out when I
thought I wasn't going. I, I don't think, damn, I should
have got it. Depends if you want to.
I've got my coin now and it sits by my bed and I don't rub it for
motivation or inspiration. I rub it each morning for
gratefulness that holy crap, like I did that, like I did that
and I'm capable of doing that. And yeah, I think I realized
that I I am more grateful for everything than I thought I was,
and Laz and Big showed me that. And if you could hear the inner
monologue of the net on the start in corral, at the very
beginning of Biggs and at the start of Yard 40, how different
would they be? Incredibly different night and
day. Totally different.
The the the beginning, Ned, is this, you know, in a child?
It's Santa Claus, it's Christmas.
Oh my God, this is amazing. And honestly, like, I'm, you
know, I tell myself I'm going to win this stuff.
Like I'm winning, like I'm winning.
You know, I know I'm not, but why not?
Who does it? Like tell yourself you're
winning, right? I think I even told Phil that
was ever coming in. He was like, yeah, nice.
You you crack on young lad on loop.
So actually loop 41, if I may Nikki, because so up until loop
35, I'm not going to say it was steady state, but it was really
hard and I had my ups and downs, but there was no but I but I was
OK on loop 35. So I run walk.
So I do like not exactly. I pick roughly 10 minutes and
when I start a course, I don't know, it's like OK, roughly 10
minutes. Is that lamppost every 9 or 10
minutes or little up hills? So I I run walk on the road
course. I'm going to call it the road
because the day and the night gets a bit confused with Biggs
This year because we stayed out on the day course.
It was 56 minutes with run walk. OK.
I then up until hour 11, from hour 11 till hour 41, we're on
the road course and I ran walk and was doing on average 53
minutes. On loop 34 it was 54.
On loop 35, it was 55 S by loop 36.
I'm like, OK, I have to run now otherwise this run walk is going
to time. Yeah, I can see it.
Like I can feel it, you know, and I'm also getting into a bit
of unknown territory. And my mindset was I felt I saw
it. I am running to the end here,
whereas before the belief was I could Oh my God, I've done 30.
Hey, I've done 31. Oh my God, I've done 32 and I
didn't see an end. Maybe 36.
It's hard to remember 3536 and you, you know this.
I'm not AI, am not a fighter, I'm a lover, I'm not a boxer.
But you know this impression in boxing bite down.
You know that that that expression.
You know when it gets hard when someone punches in your face,
just bite down in your mouth guard.
Don't feel it like from 36. My mindset was just bite down on
this like this. So I was putting a caffeine pill
every loop. I had this kind of hardcore
music in my ears. Oh, Mike, one thing to let you
know, particularly if you think you're elegant to mix.
No music on the day course, no headphones on the day course.
Not allowed on on on on the forest course, only on the road.
So Nikki 3637 I'm now I stopped talking, head down night port
shining on that bitter Rd. And you know The funny thing is
Nikki, I was charging, sprinting and I'm going at 820 per K, 830
per K, but that felt like sprinting and I could feel it.
5555 and a half, 5656 and a half, 57 and on loop 40 as I'm
coming back up the hill, it's quite steep to finish loop 40.
I knew I'll finish it. I found myself in the grass,
running along in the grass of the road.
And then my legs started to not buckle, but like I was
struggling to get up the hill and I and my brain was like,
this is it. And when I got it on Luke 40,
you can bring your chair to the start line rather than go back
to your tent. Marcus, for the last few loops
had my chair by the start line and I sat down and I was just
staring at my esky and I just, you know, my brain was
disintegrating and, you know, that childlike wonder had gone.
I was biting down the music this kind of in my ears.
And when 41 started, within a few steps I knew like I just
knew, like I could barely move it.
And as I came out, you come out onto the road, I stumbled into
the bushes and somebody, I don't know if you're listening, thank
you, kind of pulled me out of the bushes and pushed me back on
the road. But of course, they have to take
on you can't wait for anybody. You know it's not.
You know, it's not, it's, it is every man for themselves.
Everyone helps and very quickly. I was 500 meters into loop 41
and it taken 8 minutes to go 400 meters and I stopped and it was
4°. By now, you know, coming from
Bali, 4° is cold and it's 4°. Some people said with the wind
chill it was zero. I just had my running shirt on
to a wet running shirt. It's four and I stopped and you
can see the lights go off in the distance and I knew I was like
8-8 minutes for 400-8400 meters 8 and the lights have gone.
So I stop and as soon as you stop, but you know what I did?
I looked back up the hill to the start line, which was around the
corner. Nobody could see me and I didn't
want to go back because if I go back, it's over.
But I couldn't go forward because I wasn't going to make
it. So I just stood there for a
couple of minutes feeling sad, proud, exhilarated, not not
disappointed, but wishing I could carry on, turn the clock
back. And I trudged back up the hill.
And as soon as I saw everybody, everybody cheered and Marcus
hugged and Laz grabbed my hand and gave me a coin that all of
the good flooded back. But that mindset, and that's why
I'm quite proud. Like I definitely drilled.
I smashed my head against the wall a lot.
Do I now think I could have smashed it some more?
You know, I did not have 45 in me.
Did I have 42 in me? 41, maybe 43.
But have I learned enough to go to 50 or 60 years?
I have. But yeah, your mindset, I'm
proud that I smashed my brain pretty hard.
And listen to a question I've got from Clayton Tabot all the
way from Australia. He said he he fell in love with
him on the live stream. The reason why was because you
said treat each yard like yard one and he's asking are there
some favorite sayings or mantras that you had during the
backyard? Well, Clayton?
Thank you man for the question. I truly appreciate it.
Me and Marcus and my crew. Marcus, to shout out Marcus,
I've known Marcus for 10 years. He's German organized.
Not all Scottish people aren't organized.
I just don't organize Scottish, Singaporean and Australian,
whatever I am. But me and Marcus agreed, he's
quite thoughtful. I'm not religious, but I'm
vaguely Buddhist. Stay in the now mindfulness.
So I'm favorite saying is it? It's only now Luke 1.
When I came back in, Marcus would say Luke 1.
I would say Luke 1. When I headed out, he would say
Luke 1. I would say Luke 1.
So that in my head, the other one that I have and there's one
that nobody would think of because it was quite particular.
So I'll tell you that on the day course, tootsies and footsies,
everybody stumbles and falls. Harvey broke his ribs 3 Two
years ago, the Indian backyard champion who have done 50,
tripped on loop 11 and was out. So I spent my entire time saying
feet and toes. I said tootsies and footsies.
I'm color blind. I can't see the rocks and the
roots. So for me, it's even harder.
And even though I concentrated on it, I still every loop
tripped, grabbed a tree, nearly fell.
So I would say, you know, it was that, but this other mantra I
had was no reality this, that I'm not going back.
No reality, don't go back. Like this is it?
This doesn't end. There is no reality.
There's no world out there. The world.
I always feel bad saying that because I have a wife and a
family and I love my world. I don't want to get away from
that world. But my saying is because
remember, if reality doesn't exist, you can't stop.
You can't go back. Like there's nothing.
You can't go back. And this is going to, you know,
my wife is here halfway through Marcus, my crew who was updating
social media has said, oh, your wife sent you some messages.
Do you want to hear them? And I said, no, not because I
don't love my wife and I've been together for 35 years.
I don't want reality to see into my brain.
There's nothing out there. There's only backyard.
There's only 6.7 K an hour. I actually sounds super strange.
You know Lady Gaga's famous meat suit dress she wore.
I often say like I'm I when I do backyard, I am just a meat suit
that runs 6.7 K an hour. I'm nothing else.
That's all I am. And I, I tell myself that no
reality, you're just a meat suit.
No reality. Because if you stop, that's the
end of you. And it works to me.
It works because of course the minute you stop, reality comes
boring back into your brain. And reality is beautiful.
But don't think about reality when you're in there, because it
gets in your brain. No reality, all right.
Bit of a fun question for you. Imagine that the bigs loop you
choose whether it's night or day loop, forest or Rd.
Imagine it was like a Super Mario track.
If you could pick up one power up during your yard, what would
it be? So it doesn't matter what OK,
just to ask a question. Is this a personal superpad just
for me? Yes.
OK. Oh, I know exactly what they
need. I'm I would pick the the the day
course, the forest course and I would pick the ability to run
downhill like a Wildman like super.
I would pick downhill turbochargers.
I am so cautious, so I don't know if I used to vaguely ski
for Scotland. So I was when I was young, I was
on the fringes of the Scottish mogul team, so I actually
trained with the Scottish mogul team.
So I used to rampage downhills on my skis.
I've done mountain bike races across Mongolia.
I've done some mountain bike racing, but I'm very cautious.
So downhill I was like tiptoe, tiptoe, tiptoe.
I'm a super good hiker. I used to hike in the Oak Hills,
so to the backpack at at Biggs, there was like a front pack and
middle and back. I would catch them on the
uphills. I'm a really good hiker.
So on the Alps I would catch them.
Oh, down there, they're all gone.
I think they're laughing. They're like, what happened to
him? Did he stop like Jesus Christ
like So I would pick downhill supercharger blasters and hey,
I'd be finishing the day loops real quick.
And another fun question for you, Ned Banks, which runner
would when in a talent show and what would their act be?
There's only one. There is the infamous, the one,
the only bagman, Mishi, Richie Ricciaro, his act to, you know,
you meet some humans who just have this unbelievably beautiful
character. I do not know if he sings or
dances or things. I think he is a storyteller.
I think Mishi is one of the great storytellers of our sport.
His English is really good. Not perfect, but when he conveys
something to you, I think Mishi isn't.
He's an actor. He's an entity.
You know what Mishi is. So do you know who I mean by
bagman? Mishi?
Do you know who I mean? Mishi Macharo.
Yeah. He carries a bag, right?
And I'm going to tell you his bag story, which I've told
before, but it's beautiful. He went out with an umbrella
when it was raining. When I asked him why, he said
because I thought it would entertain the others.
Why is he entertaining us? I don't know if you saw he has
different fashion for different loops.
He has trousers and cut offs. And like he has, he quit his job
to be a professional backyard influencer and backyarder.
He's done 94, he's 30. His wife works at Deloitte.
She was there on the back of the computer.
I'm talking to you on I have my bagman sticker at the end of the
race. He gives everybody bagman
stickers, right. So Mishi would be a court
jester. He's there for our
entertainment. Are you ready for this?
So I'm, I've, I've chatted with Mishi a couple of loops.
He ran slow, fast. He's done 94 so he can go a long
way. He didn't have his best day at
bigs. We're in the middle of the
second night. First night, I don't remember.
It's not raining anymore, so it must have been towards the
second night getting dark and he's running with me and he come
and we've chatted a bit and he knows my name.
He calls me Ned San in Japan. You say San after you, you know,
respectful Ned San. I said, hey, Mishy and maybe
looks 30. I don't, I can't remember.
Anyway, he says Ned San, you are sweating.
I said yeah, yeah, Misha. I was running along on the road
and he looks at me and says may I, I'm like may you, may you
want Mishi. He said, May I missed you.
He reaches into his bag of tricks.
You know those little water misters that cool you down the
little if you're hot? He brings out a water spray and
mists my face to cool me down Exactly.
I gave him I gave him a hug. I really cried again.
I'm like not for the mist spray. And I asked him, is he is, is
the mist spray for you? He said, well, for me and
everyone else, he says, do you need a gel in his bag?
He carries gels for other runners.
He's he's, he's such, he's a 30 year old guy.
He's you know, there's some beautiful souls in backyard.
That young man, he would be the court jester, not in a
disrespectful way like doing he's just he's, he's, he's a
sensational young man and I really hope he makes it.
He, he told me he's winning bigs one day like that, that young
man will, he's got a long time to go.
He's giving up his other stuff. He wants to be a professional
backyarder. I would love many people to win
bigs, but if Mishi won, yeah, I'd have a tear for that great
young man. An entertainer.
He truly is. Right.
I've seen a comment, I think it was on Facebook or something
like that, that Laz said that that they the whistle and the
bell. It doesn't need to be a whistle
and the bell as long as it's a significant noise on 321 and
then go. If you could replace the noise
so it didn't have to be a whistle or a bell, what would
you replace it with? That is, that is cool.
I think it's very OK. So I have to replace them.
I think it's very hard to replace the bell because I think
it is such an iconic and iconic thing.
This sounds weird, but I would like fireworks for three, two
and one. I would like fireworks.
So a firework on three because it's just my imagination on two
and a 1. And I know what I want to start
it. I want Laz to like a light, a
cigarette like he does at Barkley.
I want Laz to light a cigarette on the hour, every hour like he
does at Barkley. And I know it's not a noise, but
the sound of his lighter. Just the tiniest little and off
we fly. But fireworks 321 tell everybody
what's going on. You can't miss that, right?
Yeah, at the start of my home grown backyard that I put on, I
don't have a bell, so I've got a it's one of those clown bicycle
horns that so. As long as, you know,
interestingly, Mike, that sounds great.
When I did Singapore Backyard the the team won the first year
we were still in lockdown. We'd be given permission to do
it, but we weren't allowed any noise.
People were in, blah, blah, blah.
Our race director just said go because that's all she was
allowed to do. So sometimes you just have to do
with what you can. But I think the whistles and the
bell are the iconic ones. Hopefully, long may they remain.
Mike, I thought you were going to say you had a conch.
That would be cool. That would be cool.
The iconic. It sounds like Nikki, you have
Barkley in your dreams. One day, maybe.
Absolutely not I would I would die in the woods within the 1st
20 minutes just through. My NAF skills are shocking so
absolutely not. I will leave that to the experts
I'm. With you, I'm with you, Nikki.
My NAF skills are terrible. And just a little bit of facts.
Phil Gore wins an entry to Barkley by winning Biggs.
The winner of Biggs gets an entry to Barkley.
He is not taking it. He said he he has he was on
Paddo's podcast. He said I have 0 interest.
I have no NAV skills. Not going to buck.
I wonder what happened. Do you know what happens with
that entry then? Can he pass on to it like
someone you would think or is it just?
So Nikki, to answer your question, I do not know.
But knowing Las, it won't roll. It won't.
I know knowing Las, Las is not a guy who's like, oh, let's make
it fair. He's like, hey, life said this,
he doesn't want it, it's gone, right?
And let's face it, he's going to get 1000 letters right from
anybody who knows how to do it. I do not.
However, you, whatever you have to do, enough people will work
it out because there's only 35 spaces of Barkley, right?
So I think he guards it pretty well given that there must be
thousands of people and maybe hundreds figure out how to
enter, how to do it. Mike, do you have Barkley in
your dreams at all? No, it just doesn't appeal.
I think it's the navigation. It's when I go over a run, I
want to go and run. No, if I was to navigate I would
do orienteering or something like that.
But I want to run. Honestly, I'm not a NAV, and
that's why Barclay, excuse me? That's why backyard is so
amazing. Yeah.
I mean, if you get lost on backyard, that's on you, right?
I mean, with Barclay, I would love to go to Tennessee and see
the big yellow gate and go to the park just to visit it and
see the prison and things like that.
Just from a being interested point of view.
But from a race, no, it's not for me.
So on a scale from normal human to Phil Gore has a spreadsheet
for every yard and cab that he does.
How nailed did you get with your planning?
Yeah, I mean, we could debate between one or two, but maybe,
you know, I went to Walmart, I got a trolley and they threw as
much stuff in it as I could. So that was it.
You know, to be fair, my nutrition, I used Lekker Gels,
which is Marx's company. So I brought 72 of those.
I brought 2 bags of Tailwind. I knew I was having 2-2 scoops
of Tailwind. I knew I was having two gels.
I knew I was having 25 grams of protein every four hours and
you'll have 400 calories. But they were sold in a big bag.
I brought a table, we poured it on the table.
I said to Marcus, two of those, two of those, that was it.
No sleep strategy. Figure it out.
I had three, 3 minutes sleeps in my chair.
I don't change shoes or socks. So same shoes and socks the
entire time. It just suck it up.
I have a Vaseline strategy, which isn't as much as I can
humanly put on myself because I don't like rashes.
I really don't. Holy cow.
And you know, that'll stop a race like bad rash will stop a
race like it will. And you guys know, you run like
so I have, but I'm not nerdy. I and I you may not have seen on
social media. I got all my I over buy food.
I'm like, you know, this is Christmas.
You can never enough quality streets and stuff at Christmas.
So, so I brought so much coke and stuff and rice puddings and
I took a photo of it all in a car park on the floor.
I stood up and I took a photo down and I'm like, I'm going to
eat all of this. That was my strategy.
I didn't quite, but yeah, no, I'm not.
I'm not a nerd. I'm a grab it all, let's go.
And now of all the the stuff that you bought, what did you
have anything that was a loyal you mentioned rice pudding
earlier on. This is my my food and anything
that you thought was going to be good and ended up not.
So I know I can't eat savory, but I had certain tins of like
Stew that I thought would work. 11 spoonful in the mouth did not
work. Marcus then troubleshoot and
went and got beef soup. For some reason I couldn't eat
Stew, but I could eat soup. So that was a surprising thing
for me. The one thing that works
incredibly, my trusty thing is sparkling water, fizzy water to
clean out the sugar and the crap in my in my brain.
So I rely a lot on because I can, I'm good at eating calories
so I can get a lot of calories in.
But it's the I would recommend this and I don't know if you
listen to free trial by Dylan Bowman, he talks a lot about
sparkling water. I think sparkling water is a
even though there's no calories in obviously for cleaning the
pallet and getting you ready again.
So my trusty is sparkling water above my calories and my savoury
always a let down my champion rice pudding.
And while you're running, what were you thinking about?
Only backyard, I'm really good. I'm I've really learnt.
I've really learnt to stay in the moment.
I haven't really done mindfulness, I've just run a
lot. It was my 34th year ultra
running and, and I've really learnt to, to only think about
backyard. I can, I can get rid of
everything else I can. I'm, I don't want to say I'm
good at this, but I'm, I'm good at it.
On the day course. I just thought about not
tripping footsies and tootsies, feet, feet, feet.
There we go on the night course. Ron, don't think of anything
else. Are you doing OK?
Have you had calories? Are you OK?
Are you fine? Let's go, you know.
Then I ran one loop with Meg Eckhart who is the six day
champion and you know, we had a beautiful chat.
Matt Blackburn. I'm sure Mike, you must know
Matt because he was in the British team.
What a dude. Hilarious.
So the beginning of the loop, Matt would ask about my shirts
and we would chat a little bit about stuff.
But for most of it, if I wasn't talking to people, which I'd
love to do, but I wanted to focus, I just thought about
back. I mean, I'm like again, no
reality. Nothing else exists.
No one exists. Nothing exists.
Only some really good at that. Staying in the moment.
I only think about backyard because I know once that's over,
it's another what, 6 months, a year till I think about it
again. So I yeah, I relish the moment
to only think about backyard. And one of our signature
questions on this podcast, as if there's anyone in the world,
either fat fiction, alive with us or not, who would you like to
run with? Who would you choose to run
with? So before I qualified, it was
always Las. You know, it really was before I
qualify. I've been asked this question
before. Before that it was, you know, it
was always Las. But do you guys know who Lassie
Veron is? So Lassie Veron, so you know,
it's because I'm old. He was the Finnish runner.
So it's two maybe Lassie Veron, a guy called Emil Zatopek.
You may know who Emil Zatopek is.
They're both just crazy front runners.
Like they just, you know these. So I would like to be in a race
with Lassie Veron, who was a 510K marathon, Emil Zatopek and
of course, pretty right, Steve Prefontaine.
I would love to run with these guys who know as soon as they
start they're torching themselves like they're all out
from the gun. Let's go.
Don't give a hell about it. If it blows up, it blows up.
Imagine running with those people.
I I have quite a strong view. I actually I post about it
today. I don't like staying safe.
I was running today and this dude passed me on the trail.
He said, oh slow down, it's dangerous.
Nothing against that dude. Super nice.
I'm not advocating fast and reckless, but give it your shot.
Like roll the dice. Let's have a go try it all.
And I'd love to run with people who who epitomize that.
So if I can only pick one of those, I say lessee in meal and
pre. I suppose Pre's the coolest
there. Let's have a let's have a 5K
showdown with pre. That'll be my choice.
That sounds like a good grip run.
I mean, these boys would be hammering this, that that would
not be a gentle group run these, these those boys would be at it,
at it. And please tell us what is next
for Ned. Is it Biggs so as?
I told you I'm delusional, so I have to believe.
I have to. OK, I will.
I will get back to Biggs. Yes, I have a phrase.
If you believe you can or believe you can't, you're right.
So I have to believe I can. The reality is if I go to
Singapore to race or if I go, I mean, I'm still a resident,
there's Joshua. He's done 72 at Biggs.
He's did 50 at at Singapore, but he won that.
So how much more could he have done?
Now I've done 40. I think I can do 50.
And Joshua, if you're listening, we've talked about it already.
Joshua wants to go back to Biggs in 2027, So do I.
The money's on him, but every dog has his day.
Non disclosed yet, but I'll say it.
And that's still to get home approval for this, but I am
tentatively approved for Legends in Belgium in the end of April.
I delusionally you know what? If I can improve by 50% and get
into the 60s, Delusional, I know.
Do I think the at large list is coming down to 60?
I do not. But crazier things can happen.
So what's next? Probably legends, then satellite
and then we'll see. You know, I'm dreaming of bigs.
I've done a bit of research. I don't think a 60 year old's
been a bigs and I'm pretty sure that no 60 year old has ever.
So I'm 60 in April 2027, I'm 58 now.
So what's next is getting back to bigs in some way.
Also what's next is being the 1st 60 year old to run 60 loops
and to do that I'm going to do legends, then satellite champs
and then we'll see. Well, your bigs total qualify
you for the Singapore team. Yes it will.
And the last question we have on our question set, unless Mike
has any more after this, as your race report, as Mike pointed out
at the start of the podcast can be found on social media and
poetry form, which is fantastic. Would you be able to give us a
few lines as how you feel about Biggs now?
I can and well, look, thank you. I appreciate it.
I for you guys seeing that perm, Mike, thank you for your perm at
the beginning. I appreciate it.
I don't think I'm a a poet. I just always found after doing
endurance efforts. So I've been doing everything.
It's my 30 year. I've written a little story.
So just to let you know, I'm releasing a tiny little book.
I have about 50 poems and put them in a book form.
I'm going to release them. It's called one more K Partly
it's about motivation, about getting about going further,
about not stopping about. I have, I don't know if you see
it, but I have a T-shirt, Long live the adventure.
It's always my shirt. So it says Long live the
adventure. So I'm always a fan of that.
But if I just to read a few and I'm going to read, I'm just
going to put on my glasses to show that I am in fact old.
I'm not going to read the whole poem because they can find it on
social media, but I want to read just a few lines from it.
What we have here, which is, hold on, let me just go to my
nose here. People say at Backyard it's
family. And the poem I wrote was called
We Could Be Heroes, you know, just for five days, taken from
David Barry's We Could Be Heroes just for one day.
Obviously five days was a reference to Phil.
And if I, if it's OK, I'm just going to read the last bit of
the poem, which is not about me, but it's about the humans that
were there because I think it's only about humans.
So I'll just read the last little bit if that's OK.
So this is part of the poem that after I had finished and this is
what happened and then I stay for the next three days as these
outstanding humans tell the world what life is about.
Evo Belgium hero. He ran 750K.
He's 55 years old. So much respect.
Sarah huge resolve comes in small humans.
She is a giant Harvey, the heartbeat of backyard bagman
Mishi. He carries a bag of kindness
with him every loop. And Phil from Planet Gore, a
true alien. He ran for five days.
And all of them, the whole family, every racer and crew and
staff who made this happen, we are family.
Thank you for all the love that filled my heart.
And Laz, of course. Thank you.
They say don't meet your heroes. They are wrong.
You were way better in person. Thank you for letting me find
myself in your yard. One of the true honors of my
life, Ned. Thank you, Ned.
Thank you, that was lovely. Thank you, I appreciate it.
And I think we're going to end it there for tonight or today
afternoon for us. It's a multicultural show
tonight because you're in one of the many locations that you
decide. Just got to say thank you, Ned,
for coming on. Thank you Nikki for being Nikki
and it's goodbye from me. Thank you for coming on, Ned.
Thank you guys for having me true honour and privilege and
thank you for what you do for the for the kind of backyard
community as well. Thank you.