Good evening and welcome back to another episode of Run Till
You're Done. Tonight's guest shot on to the
running scene back in 2017 when, according to Nikki, it was his
highest, his biggest running achievement yet.
When he beat me in the car and fail.
If I is his highest achievement then I think he's running for
the wrong reasons, but according to DUV he's done 8 or 9 races so
far and every one of them he's finished first place.
So welcome to the show round Boswood.
I I unfortunately the DNF at the West Island Wade does that
doesn't feature on Duvi. Do need to block my record.
Sorry, it's not a it's definitely not a clean sweep.
I have lost races too. Thank you so much for coming on
and joining us. Well, it's a pleasure to be
here. Right, Rowan, we'll start off by
the question that we always ask. It's.
How did you first get into running?
So I as a teenager and young man, maybe between the ages of
15 and 20, I was a cyclist. So I was a Rd. cyclist and took
it to quite a high level. I competed in Spain at amateur
high amateur level and took a gap year and dedicated my life
to that. It's a very different scene and
a very different way of way of life.
But at the age of 19 decided to quit and go to university
instead. So instead of being a semi
professional athlete, just decided that probably a better
future, a university and basically just stopped, went
cold Turkey and didn't do anything of any sort of physical
excursion for 5-10 years maybe. So, yeah, left, went to
university, left university, got a job and well, I started doing
some hill walking. One of my hill walking friends,
Adam Heffel, who's supported me a couple of times on the West
Island way since his brother was also a runner and he was running
the the Larry group. So there were a few races I did,
I think it must have been 2016, possibly did a an Ember 1/2
marathon and the the Larry grew that year.
And there from that got the bug. I think it also coincided with
reading boarding to run. So there was a a bit of a
paradigm shift for me. I guess I'd been without
insurance athletics of any sort for 10 years.
And then running came into my life again.
And it's very different to cycling for me.
Like, I'm not necessarily running to win, running for to
feed myself, just running for fun really.
So yeah, I guess that's how I got into running maybe 10 years
ago now running the Larrigu, running the Edinburgh half.
And yeah, discontinued from there to longer and faster
things, I think. And was Edinburgh half your very
first race that you'd entered? Running race.
I think I did a couple of half marathons at university but on
zero training. Edinburgh Half was probably the
one where I did four weeks training maybe and.
Do you remember how you did on that?
What? You did.
Was for. That it was one hour 14.
I never done 14. Yeah, I mean, I played football
at the time, so it's not like I was going from nothing.
On 4. Weeks training, maybe 4 weeks.
I think maybe 4 weeks might be a stretch.
So I'm, I'm guessing from that stage when you get, you can't
just bang out a time like that for 1/2 marathon and not think
I'm actually quite good at this. Like after that race, did you
think I'm onto something here? You know, I'm quite good at it.
I guess from cycling, like I was, like I said, I cycled to a
much higher level than I've ever run at.
So I knew I had a relatively decent VO2 Max and big car and
the ability to stay at a threshold pace for quite a long
time. I could.
These things you kind of get a feel for.
Like there's no way I could have run more than half a marathon
after running that. Like I didn't have the muscle
endurance to do it, but I knew I had a big car and lungs like
this. Yeah, I guess it it finds you
out pretty quickly in cycling if you don't, so I wasn't that
surprised by it. It hurt, I can tell you that.
It really hurt. And since you retired from the
semi professional, do you still cycle for fun?
No, no, no, no. Can't do it.
Not on the road bike like a mountain bike with friends.
And it's like quite different experience.
Like I, I, I still, I watched the Tour de France for the first
time this year since giving up. I still love cycling.
And I think if I was to get into it, you know, it would be yeah.
I, I, you couldn't do it unless you were training 20-30 hours a
week and racing every weekend. So I don't really cycle anymore.
Hello, cycle my kids to school. We've got the question next with
do you have a coach? But I'm going to assume not, but
I could be wrong. How's the cycling on you go?
No coach. No coach, no coach.
How's the cycling, the training from that LED into how you train
in running? Are you like?
Does that teach you to coach yourself?
Yeah, so I, I used to race for a club called Mid Devon Cycling
Club and they were very supportive.
So then they had a lot of, a lot of very good riders, like an old
an Ex Tour de France rider and guys who had competed at
national champs. And I think in cycling it's,
well, I've never really got into the running club scene so much,
haven't had the time. But in cycling, you know, you,
you ride together, you race together, you race as a team.
And they, there's some cyclists there who kind of took me under
their wing and, you know, said taught you everything you need
to know around different heart rate zones and different
training thresholds and what you need to do to, to get better and
get better and how you need to eat, how you need to sleep.
And then, yeah, taking that into running, it is different.
It's slightly different. It's still an aerobic activity,
but then it's much more muscular endurance to, to running and
cycling. That's where, yeah, that's why I
got as I got my basics from cycling.
But then I also, you know, a bit of a data theme.
So I do love to read everything, listening to every podcast going
on. Anyone who's got any training
tips and trying to spring it all into one.
I, I don't know if you find this, Mike, but you know, I
think with marathon running, there's a very set program you
can go on and it'll make you a good marathon runner.
You could do give that to 10 different people and they would
all react very similarly. Whereas with Ultra running, I
think this is still a bit of a blank page on the best way to
train, the best way to take things forward, and everyone's
on a bit of a voyage discovery for themselves, like.
I think it's very, very individual.
You can put out the textbook. This is a plan, but that'll only
get you so far. Hard work pays off after that.
Yeah, I found personally, I think when I first came in felt
running in particular, I thought it was miles and miles would get
you as far as you'd want to go. But like I've, I've found I
guess through trial and error that I'm actually quite a low
mileage, high intensity runner has been much better for me.
Maybe run faster, maybe run further, but the yeah, I don't
think you'd find many coaches who would advocate that and not
to running. So do you not train to time on
feet then? Because I know that's a popular
training method as well. No, no train to provoke the
response you might get from time on feet.
So I do a lot of downhill, running downhill at speed loops
of the same hill, sprinting downhill.
And do you have a favorite hill? Oh, it's tough.
I live right next to the Pentlands, so probably Alamea.
It's, it's one right on the South of Edinburgh that you can
run up probably in 10-15 minutes.
So it's a it's a great little hill when you get them the.
One right next to the ski center.
Yeah, right next to the one just along the skyline one.
I mean, they're all steep independence.
They're all pretty steep. That's a spicy 1 though, like
that. I think it's because when you go
out, I've done, I've done 2 skylines and I think because
it's the first one and for me, because I'm your regular average
runner, it makes me want to die when I go and I get to the top
and I think I can't do it anymore.
And then you go down and you see if you get a nice stain, you get
nice views, then you're like oh that's fine.
It wasn't that bad. Just.
Got 18 more to go? Yeah, you don't you.
We don't think about that. Before move on, you mentioned
that you got into running. When you read Born to Run, do
you barefoot run and do you eat quinoa?
I, I have a pair of five those, I use them rarely, probably once
a month maybe. Like I like the, I like the
idea, but I mean running any serious distance in the mode and
I think I find quite difficult. I think they're quite good just
to mix up a little bit and get a little bit of foot strength.
And, you know, it's interesting going out with a pair of bare
feet and really concentrating on where you put your feet and can,
you know, every now and then, I mean, vegetarian, borderline
vegan. So there's definitely some
quinoa in there for sure. Oh, it's a cheer, isn't it?
It's cheer that. Oh yeah, Cheer seeds.
Yeah. Cheer.
Yeah, those two are some but cheer seeds as well.
So off of the back of language weekend, which we'll get onto
more questions about that. People looking at the socials
well have spotted that you were wearing a carnethy vest, as is
that your current club. Yeah, I pretty much, I think
it's the only running club I've ever ever run for.
Yeah, good group of guys. Obviously a lot of fast runners
to to look up up to and probably a lot of middle-aged guys with
kids like myself who, yeah, like minded friends to go into the
hills with. And as Mike mentioned that the
introduction as well with the DUV record, which is absolutely
phenomenal. I've known when I've done my
research on previous guests, I don't even know about DUV until
Mike told me about it. And we went into yours and I was
looking to see if there was something you hadn't won, which
I was absolutely blown away by. But after our conversation,
you're saying he'd beat Mike on the Catalan.
How did you manage it? Let's hear that story.
I'd say that one was probably pure pure luck.
That was my first ever Ultra I think.
Was it 2017? Oh, the story gets better.
Sorry. Mate.
And so I mean like like I said, I had a fair amount of speeds.
I was happy enough at marathon distance maybe, but obviously
Mike, I think me might probably like chalk and cheese in terms
of he's got the endurance, I've got the speed.
We run from memory. We run together probably for the
1st 20 K to the first checkpoint, possibly, yeah.
Honestly can't remember. Yeah, probably back, back and
forth. And then I think you took a
little bit longer at one of the feeding stations and I just ran
off and I thought, well, this is a bit spicy, needing an
Ultramarathon. And yeah, in the last, like the
Catherine, I'm not sure if you'd know, like the last 8K or so, it
goes up, I climb to a coal and then back down.
And I was really feeling it in the last climb and probably
looking behind me every year, every 30 seconds or so to see if
Mike was catching me up. And then, yeah, I would.
I wish someone had filmed my running technique on the way
back down with two seed squad quads and, yeah, hobbling down
the hill. I think if the race had been two
or three miles longer, Mike would have caught me and
overtaken me. But yeah, I feel very lucky to
have won that one. And then that first 20K was
there any chat? Because I know how chatty mate
can be. It was a little bit.
I do remember there was a little bit, yeah.
And moving on to other races, Yeah, you've done 1 W Island way
twice, improving times Fling. You were actually slower in the
Fling this year than you have been previously.
How has your training evolved over the years?
It's a good question. I think like the big step change
I guess was going from Flame 22, was it 23?
I did 715 from memory and around that time I think I was focusing
more on mileage. It's a lot of quite high end 72
stuff, probably 100 and 22140 KA week.
So that's to be relatively high mileage.
And then after that, yeah, ran the Flame, ran the West Highland
way and hadn't really seen a very big improvement.
I think. I think maybe COVID had
something to do with that too. I thought putting in the mileage
would have got me quite a lot further, whereas it took maybe 6
minutes off my West Island wait time, which, yeah, given the
amount of effort, 6 minutes is nothing over a distance like
that. And the only reason I probably
was 6 minutes quicker was because I knew that I had to be
quicker than my previous time and absolutely sprinted from
London down into Fort William. And then after that year my
second child was born, so had less time than previously.
And I think it was a bit of a blessing really.
So oh, obviously a blessing having a second child, but a
blessing for my training in terms of what I was doing.
So it really cut down the mileage and was doing two runs a
day quite a lot. So one run at lunchtime and then
one run once the kids had gone to bed.
But much higher intensity, really just focusing on quality
and yeah, getting the muscular endurance in that way, I think
it was a fairly big change. So yeah, when you're kind of
time constrained, making those sessions count.
So a little bit of weighted running, a lot of sprinting
downhills, Yeah, and a lot of very high, high end threshold.
There's been the change, yeah. I guess I just carried that on
from last year into this year. I would guess I was hoping for
my fling time to be faster, but I guess it's not to be a mess.
It was again, 5 minutes different and I think I was
really happy with the time. I maybe could have run a little
bit faster on the day, but the conditions weren't quite as good
and obviously not quite as in quite as good a shape as it was
last year. But it's one of those things
happy with the time. I guess you don't.
You don't need to be faster, you just need to be faster than the
other people. I don't know.
I think if I, if I'm honest, like after running 650 last
year, like the course record definitely was on my mind.
But again, I think it's such a quality time, it's going to be a
difficult one to beat. That was actually going to be my
next question. You took, you know, it's like
with the course record for yourself.
I mean that is, I think the course record I've seen was 641,
which is a phenomenal time. Is there any ways in yourself
that you think or could make time up in this bit or or could
just be a bit faster as the I would imagine you've got a lot
going through your head that way where you can beat try and beat
it. I, I don't think there was
anything, There's nothing Dora in the face.
I think it would have just have to have been consistent.
Like I think if you look, I had looked at my my times and Rob's
times, I think there's the splits are fairly even up to Ben
Glass. And then he just absolutely
motors Ben Glass. Like I think he does say about
10 minutes faster than anyone's done it before.
And yeah, it's absolutely phenomenal.
So I kind of had it in my mind if I was going to do it, I'd
have to take, you know, a minute out of every single checkpoint
and then just be satisfied that I was going to lose 5 minutes to
him between Ben Glass and the finish.
But yeah, wasn't to be, not to be.
It's a. It's a.
Huge distance. Do you think for yourself that's
just fatigue because by the time you get to Ben Glass, that's not
odd miles by that point? Like I, I, I, I don't know Rob
at all, but I think he might be just a bit of a freak, to be
honest, like he is. He is.
I can testify with that. He is can testify with that.
Like I don't think my split times from Ben Glass to the
finishing are slow and I'm not and I'm not slowing up.
So like even relative to the rest of the field, I think I'm
you know, I'm putting in the same amount of time in that
final section. So I think it's more Rob
probably, I think could have gone faster than 641.
I mean, he might have just left a bit, a little bit in his legs
towards the end. And yeah, they've got no idea
how he ran it that quick. I mean, I was looking at your
split times from Saturday and I thought, I wonder what, what the
time actually is because I work in kilometers.
I'm not a mile person. And your split going up Conic
Hill was more or less like it was faster than what my tempo is
on the road on flat and it's ABS.
It's unreal like, and I think I'm in the majority.
Well, it's like this is unreal. Like how fast you guys are at
the front and can maintain that pace?
Practice. You'll go there.
I was chatting to Rob after you had won the race and not, not
that he'd take on his advice, but he says that you should
probably go out and do a couple of years, a year, whatever,
doing other races and then come back and smash this one because
he wants somebody to take the record.
Yeah. And I, I, I get that as well.
I I'll take on Rob's advice. I might not miss the thing next
year. Do I listen to my favorite?
It's my favorite race. But I will take Rob's advice if
if he wants to give me any. And I think he needs someone to
break one of his records, doesn't he?
So he's got a reason to run out, which is in Scotland again.
I. Would also message them.
I sent him a couple of pictures from the finish and this is the
next question. You've done the flying three
times. Did you do all three of them in
alpha flies? Just the last two.
So the first one was in, I can't even remember what.
There's a pair of standard trail shoes, but I, I was thinking
about moving over to the Super shoes for a while.
And then yeah, last year just committed to it over the winter.
I think I said this year at the finish went on vintage and
bought a couple of pairs, but 20 quids and just run in them all
winter, run in the Pentlands a lot up and down the hills and
you get used to running, running in them on really awful terrain.
Like you've got to be careful. I think if you're running kind
of ultra distances and you're not pushing it too hard on the
trails, like it's not, it's not the worst shooter.
It's probably the worst shoot to be in on the lock side, but you
know it's livable. With my track history, I don't
think I'll be pulling on my alpha flies on the Pentalins
anytime soon because that was something they told and a couple
of other people had asked me as well.
They went, how's he still got ankles after that.
I I don't think the well, there's certainly the fling.
It's not as technical like you can run.
You obviously prove that you can run it in super shoes.
I don't, I don't know how much it would benefit.
I've never done it, but I, I, I don't think it's too technical,
but the question I was going to ask you was have you thought
about getting the your alpha flies resold with a better grip?
No, I have. I have heard people do it.
I've never actually struggled with the grip.
It's more the stability and like actually being able to turn on
turn on the penny as you need to at some points.
But the grip I've never had that big of issue with.
Yeah, if if it was a a grassy and muddy, of course.
Possibly. Would you have warned them if it
was wet? Yeah, yeah, Didn't take any
other shoes. I think the first time I ran I
did take a pair of Solomons in the in the bag in case if it in
case it was wet. But I've run lock sides up and
down in the pouring rain in them and they're OK.
OK. I I think like on average
they're the better shoot. They'll give you a minute,
minute, minute and a half to to Balmaha and then up block side.
You just have to run within yourself.
And I don't think it's a bad pacing strategy.
And then the end, the last 15 miles, I don't think it really
matters what shoot you're in, you're hurting.
It's probably it's probably not helping very much.
It's not hindering, So what would you do?
For the West Island way, would you continue, would you do the
whole of that and? I I did this year, Yeah, Yeah,
I'm actually. Just imagining the guy that sold
you them on vintage and then imagine being that seller the oh
that that shoes just won the flank.
I was imagining being the being the shoe and because most of
them are like oh I've worn these for two marathons now.
So their shoes just like run 2 flat pouring marathons and get
sent in the boats and then it finds itself up carnefie or
something like belt get down carnefie.
Have you thought about getting the ultra flies?
I've heard they're not very bouncy.
I've never never invested, but I think it's not going to be like
a Diet Coke, wouldn't it? It wouldn't be.
It wouldn't be the full thing. Well, I'm not going to lie, I'm
tempted. Yeah.
Yeah, when this ankle's better. Although I can now imagine my
physio and my coach going you there.
So you just went over your ankle and now you want to go in a shoe
that Raven's just said you have to be able to turn you.
It's not good for your ankles. Yeah, I mean, I've had a couple
of hairy moments, but my ankles are quite strong now.
And Nikki, yours is not so. It's only had one injury which
quite a lot of mileage and these legs, God willing someone
doesn't do it before then. The next question that we've got
on the list as it's a popular listener question.
It's a lot that I get asked if we get any guests on like
yourself. How do you manage to navigate
lock side so quickly and is there any tips or advice for
people that do want to try and get up faster time?
I think for me, the for me the lock side is, is kind of you're
right on the edge and you're going up and over the edge for
30 seconds a minute and then you're coming back.
So I mean, the only way I've heard it described is kind of
like a lactic shuttle. So you have to be OK in a bit of
pain for 30 seconds, but then recover pretty quickly in
between. So kind of efforts that short
sharp efforts, but not slowing down entirely between them.
So kind of threshold runs with rolling sections in I think will
stand you in good stead. A lot of time doing technical
stuff as well. I'm always in the mountains.
Like the lock side is not that technical if you if you spend a
lot of time. Well, I'm not lucky enough to go
in the Cairngorms much anymore, but you know, the patterns,
there's still some fairly technical sections up there.
So just getting used to descending at speed.
And yeah, I think I said you've falling with style around a lot
of the corners, a lot off a lot of the boulders.
You know, I think this is. Special awareness would have to
be quite good as well because there's a couple of bits that
when I make it, I bang my head a couple of times.
I mean, special awareness is rubbish anyway, but that was us
literally hiking it. So the I take it you I don't
even know if you know you do it, but do you see the trees coming
out of the side that anything and you just manage to dock or?
You see them, you see them. I think it's also like learning
to relax into it, like not be, not worry about the splits, just
just run I guess and just let your subconscious take over
looking a few metres ahead. And yeah, being comfortable and
comfortable on that kind of ground to do it.
So it is practice and a little bit of, I wouldn't say
fearlessness. It's not going to.
I don't think you're going to fall in a lock unless you do
something really, really bad. But, you know, like if you take
a few risks here and there of jumping, copping, cutting
corners, Yeah, for practice. And I'm not about that.
I don't mean you have to. Thanks for answering that, that
was a really good. A mile away, a.
Bit of advice that you gave. Yourself.
On. The VU.
VI did notice that you've not ran the devil that you any
desires to do. That as in possibly I'm not lots
of shorts. I'm not acceleration of with
that section of the West Island away as block siding up to
Tindrum because it doesn't suit my running style quite as well.
And most memories I have are with 50 miles in your legs as a
minimum and struggling up Jelly Babyhill up across Ranak Mall
and yeah down from not leaving enough up back up again like the
When I think about them, I just think of a running pain really.
So maybe running in the devil might be eye opening and running
with fresh legs rather than painful quads.
Possibly. Possibly.
But like, I don't enjoy it as much as the flames so I was glad
to say. That the Fiona Rennie who's done
West Highland Way 19 times, she ran the Devil for the first time
this year and asked her how she found it though the because
she's had. I was going to say not the same
experience as yourself because you have very different races,
but Fiona's been on a lot more times than yourself.
Yeah. And she said that was really
refreshing and lovely to run it with fresh legs because her
experience was totally different.
She says normally in that section, like you've just said
there, you're in a world of pain and it's a trudge, you know, to
get up the Devil's Staircase, whereas you start at Tain Drum
and that's, you know, it's almost as all you've done the
1st 53 miles and you've had a rest.
Yeah, Yeah. And I think that, well, it's not
quite as pretty as well. I think the lockside is that
that tail and it's got a special place in my heart.
So maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe now it's in April and
probably be more likely now it's in April.
Like, I think at the start of the season it's more, yeah, it's
easier to prepare for and you know, you haven't gone through a
whole season tired at the back end, so.
And there's just a a short one as well.
Yeah, just 4045, yeah. 42 I think.
There's also something to aim for to try and win that Triple
Crown. All right, lean on to you said
you were almost vegan. What do you how do you balance
your day-to-day diet? How do you fuel for races?
How is things like the the fling where you've got drop bags
different from West Island way that you've got the support
crew? Lots, lots of questions.
Day, day-to-day, I, I Steve, I can pretty regular guy.
I was vegan for three maybe four years kind of from 20, 2018
until post COVID and then I started going out and eating at
restaurants again and found it very difficult not to be vegan.
But I'm vegan at home so I only cook non dairy for myself at
home. Is that for ethical or health
reasons or? Environmental and ethical
reasons, Yeah, I got probably mostly for environmental when I
first did it. And then the more you read
around veganism and the dairy industry, I guess the more it
was for the ethical reasons. But I'm an ethical hypocrite now
because I, yeah, definitely love eating dairy outside of the
house. So maybe you should remove the
the V sign from my Strava profile.
But the ISA had a fairly regular diet, really, nothing special.
Lots of soup when I'm working from home and lots of pasta when
I'm not, when I'm preparing for a race.
Yeah, carbo loads like a by eating like a small child and to
see breakfast cereal for breakfast, lunch and and snacks.
Have to buy them in because they're obviously like crack to
my small children and I have to hide them when they're not
there. But yeah, to see lots and lots
of breakfast cereal, preparing carbo loading.
And on race day try to eat as many solids as I can.
But usually after three hours, well, if I'm running at the same
place, probably 3 hours, I'd move over to jails and yeah,
West Highland way place, probably I could last 8 hours
mostly on, well, probably about 50% solids, 50% shells.
And in terms of gel, I'll do homemade gels.
I think I make up quite watery fructose glucose mix with some
caffeine in. So try and get 100 grams of
carbs an hour, but have that as my platinum goal.
Yeah. And then yeah, towards the back
end of a race, be happy enough getting 60.
And between the West Highland Way and the Flying, they're both
terrible start times, the West Highland Way being at 1:00 in
the morning and the flying being at 6:00 in the morning.
How soon do you eat before both? Before you start?
Three hours before both. So yeah, three hours.
Yeah. I don't think the thing's too
bad. The West Island way is awful.
It's the worst. It's the worst time to start a
race. I know, I know.
I understand why, but almost any other time I think you could
choose will be better. I don't even know when I think
3:00 in the morning to eat something.
I'll be getting up at 3 and go back to my bed.
I was up at 3. Yeah, I was up at 3:00.
And then you had breakfast and then I drove across to the start
line. So it was, I was up at 3 anyway.
But I think the West Island way, because it's so it's always
like, I don't know anyone who would run it as a, you know, a
secondary race in their calendar.
There's a lot of nerves and energy the whole day and I've
never been able to sleep before it.
But you get to 1:00 in the morning and like your the whole
system is just trying to shut down and go to sleep and you're
knackered and then you start running.
And then just off at the back of sorry Mike with us that like
after the back of the diet and that we're back at talking about
the West Highland way. Something I've often thought is
the speedy runners like yourself, you're finishing on
the Saturday early afternoon. What do you make of the runners
that are finishing Saturday night and even Sunday morning?
I. Mean yeah.
So this year in particular, when I DNFDI was lying in Fort
William at 2:00 in the morning and there was a massive
thunderstorm. I was just thinking, you know,
people who've been out had the same as me, been up all day, run
all night, run all day, run all night, and then this
thunderstorm and I just thought, you know, it's a, it's a
different world, isn't it? It really is a different world.
I it's a different, I guess it's, it's a different energy
system. It's a different mentality.
You can't approach it how I would approach the last silent
way. Like I, I know that I can, I can
eat for 10 hours and then it's jails.
But like if I'm running for, I can't run for 20 hours because I
can't live off jails for 20 hours.
So it's very different. I mean, it's amazing.
It's incredible that I can do it.
The guy, I was crew and he was on the Davra when that happened
and thankfully my crew and duties were done.
So I was comfortable in the Airbnb on the couch.
And but one of the other crew, the support runners sent us a
WhatsApp into the group chat and poor Steve, he was that tired.
The sketch has support runner was he was having a ball.
He was like, oh, it's thundering and lightning and we're all
going to die. And Steve, he held them and
speed up at that point. I was, I, I was sleeping in my
van in for William and I didn't hear a thing so.
Well, I'll I'm not shy, as you both know.
So see, if I ever run the West Highland Way and you want to run
that section at that time of night, then I'm happy for you to
crew me. It's.
A deal if you're wrong. Hey, you said about different
pieces for West Ham Way versus Fling, I've not looked, but how
did your time compare or over the years Fling to Tyndrum
versus West Ham Way, what what kind of time were you there?
I think so. 20/20/20 I reckon if it was 23 or 24 when I hit it
first time the thing first time I think I was West Highland way
to optotyre maybe 74735 ish and then Flynn was 715 so probably
about a bit like 1/2 an hour delta maybe.
Yeah. And that that was conscious,
that was you slowing down so that you could take the load.
Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, like the all
basically all I think about in the West Island way is not
running too fast. Yeah.
It's been a long hours, yeah. It's been a long time since I've
done the Fling, but it's always been as a training run for the
West Highland Way, so I've done it at the pace that I would have
been doing the West Highland Way at.
Yeah, I think there's definitely a a different pace for me that
like I, I finished the thing this year and I thought I could
have run further. Definitely the first year I did
it, even though I went one won and run the West End away before
I was just petrified about the distance that time.
Maybe this year not as scared about the distance I probably
should have been. Right, the next question,
despite what Nikki says, your your biggest running achievement
is just isn't just beating me. What?
What is your biggest running achievement?
Imagine if that is the. I think that you need to hang up
your shoes and do something else.
Go back to cycling. I, I think probably my biggest
running achievement, the one I'm most proud of, is probably my
first W ironing way. I think it was, it was fairly
out of the blue as in like I think I've done a couple of
ultra marathons before, but you know, nothing big as West
Highland way is. You know, it's a very special
race. It's something that I'd wanted
to run for a very long time. And yeah, I think before I'd run
it, I'd never even crossed my mind that I could run it that
fast. So I think that was probably,
that's probably the most proud I've ever been of anything.
And you know, the best runners I've had in terms of like actual
fast times, like the flame last year as well.
I'm very proud of that time. I think I would kind of visit
step change in my running performance, but yeah, probably
West Island Way 2019 was the the proudest.
And you transitioned from cycling to running.
Why? Why running?
Why not anything else? They are quite similar sports as
in it's. I'd say cycling is a, is a
biggest spectrum of energy systems that you use.
You know, it's more sprinting, you have to have a lot of
aerobic fitness, but there's also sprinting there.
Running, I guess because I, I love being in the hills.
I couldn't go back to cycling. I just can't do it.
So very similar. They are quite similar sports.
I can just give you that Peace of Mind being out.
And has your wife changed from when you started running to no?
Probably. I think when I started running I
was just doing it for fun. I'd run it, run a race for some
friends and and see how it goes. And now like I would run to
clear my head to go on a little adventure at lunchtime and get
up in the hills and come back and feel better for it.
Be my reason for running now, whereas then it was probably
just for fun. And you say about the hill walk
and you mentioned that really briefly earlier on.
Have you completed all the Monroes?
No, I think I got to about under 100, but having two kids is
definitely put up. I stopped that.
But I'm sure, I'm not sure. I'm not sure that I can't
convince them to to walk them with me.
But when that that's the dream, that's the dream is to get them
into hill walking too. I think if you start them early
enough then you know you probably could.
That took matter. Just stop Conic Hill before I
even discovered this world. I didn't even know that was part
of the West Highland Way. And I found that snacks help
bring them. Lost and.
That's don't be as mean as me. I told them there was a
McDonald's at the top. I took my daughter up Nevis when
she was 5 and M&M's every half mile.
You can have another one, you can have another one.
Didn't complain once. So she.
She managed. It she did, yeah.
The only time I picked her up was some of the steps are too
high for her at that age. So yeah, bribery is the way to
go. I've got.
A future ultra on her there, Mike, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah, you can't have too. Many.
Snacks when you pay the kids, even for yourself, you can't
have too many snacks when it's a.
Hike. As you say, it's just you're
going out and enjoying that. Yeah, I'll take a bag, take a
bag of M and Ms. So when you're. Out running.
Your kids aren't with you yet, we'll say.
Yet. What is it you're thinking
about? That's a really difficult one.
I do get asked this quite a lot and I think maybe the standard
answer will be everything and nothing.
At the same time. I feel like like if I'm not out
running, OK, going to be a bit of a bag of worries and it can
all be a bit much. You know, your thoughts.
I'm particularly straight and ironed out and I'll go for a run
and you know, I can just take one of my problems at a time and
think about it and break it down into little pieces and move on.
I guess generally, a lot of the time we'd be thinking about what
I'm going to do next, what I'm going to do this afternoon, my
work, the kids, everything. But I think there's definitely a
different thought process that goes on when I'm running.
Much less chaotic and much more relaxed.
But do listen, listen, listen to music as well.
Podcasts from dancing, they've everything got a very, very
broad taste. Just whatever mood.
Yeah, whatever mood takes me. If I'm racing it's mostly like
cheesy dance music, but. Oh, fantastic.
Yeah, Bengal boys. Maybe not quite, actually.
Was he Nah WT WT? That kind of it.
Is as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think it's quite a big part of it for me, just getting in the
zone and kind of setting, setting the tone of how I should
be feeling in the base by the music you're listening to as
well. And do you always have a start
song? No, not always the same, but
like, generally we start with reggae and then move on, yeah.
Amazing. So in the future, do you have a
dream or bucket list dress that you've got this?
I would love to do one day would be the Everest Marathon.
So I've been to that area. So like the Sagamatha National
Park and it's yeah, it's incredible.
I mean, it's like nothing you ever see anywhere else.
And it's, it's just a spectacular.
Place to be in. Incredible hills, mountains, as
you can imagine. So there's a, I think there's an
ultra that that leaves that is around there, but there's also
like a, a marathon that goes from base camp down to one of
the towns 42 kilometers away or thereabouts, which I think it
would be incredible to run. I would imagine as well you'd
have to go and. Acclimatize to that for a fair
bit beforehand, wouldn't you? Yeah, I think so, yeah.
Yeah. I think when?
We were there. Maybe we were there for me and
my wife. We were there for three weeks
and you can, yeah, you can go up like 200 and 5300 meters a day.
And yeah, running. I wasn't as I wasn't very.
Fit when I was there I. Think I went before I was.
A proper runner, but when? You get to about 5000 meters
like running is near impossible. And do you have?
Any projects or events or volunteer incidents coming up at
all? Do you volunteer at many events?
I don't know I should do but. I'm a bit selfish isn't?
Don't really get to help too many races as you can probably
see from my DDUV. So volunteering, I think when I
will start doing it, When, when I get the time in terms of it,
yeah, I'll propel you now. Steve Hollins, Eden.
It's probably just as exhausting as running just.
With the extension it's. It is fun.
It's a lot of fun doing it, especially ultras and all the
drama Queens finishing their. Races and needing, needing their
massages and all their support. Oh, I can imagine.
Yeah. Yeah.
So one of the other questions that we like.
To ask on this podcast is is there someone that you would
like to run with? And that could be anyone.
This is like a bucket list dream.
They could be alive or no or fictional or not.
If you had to choose someone to go out on a run with, who would
it be? But if it was a run, it'd have
to. Be Kip Jogi.
I think the guy is a bit of a legend, even if it's marathon
running and it's there, maybe not quite as cool.
As trail running I wouldn't tell.
Him that obviously when we run our run, but like I think doing
what he's done and you know. Obviously the breaking too, but
all. His marathon achievements like
he is the greatest runner of all time, so if it was a run it
would be him. That's a good.
Answer. I wonder what his chat would be.
Like as well or if it would just be complete focus pure business.
Let's show you this slow ultra runner.
What running's really about, South Mike?
Is there anything else you want to ask?
Before where app is up, yes. He used to be a cyclist and your
favorite part of the West Island Way is along lock side and
you're obviously a runner because that's.
Why you're here we're. Talking to you?
Does triathlons interest you? No.
I I can't, I can swim, obviously
I wouldn't. If I fell out of a boat, I
wouldn't drown. So if you've held the lock side,
so the the way. That somebody's going to beat
you is push you into the lock. That would be it.
But like swimming? Has absolutely no interest to
me. A duathlon.
I would definitely do a duathlon and I think so.
I had the Highland Cross, Yeah, I think would be an interesting.
Race to to. Run to cycle, but that would
mean you'd. Have to do some cycle training
again. So not Kelvin.
Anytime soon? No.
No, I'd. I'd still be, I'd be swimming
still when everyone else would have finished.
I'd be doggy paddling. Do you think that?
Something I've thought about but never actually done, but doing
cycling in recovery days just to get your aerobic fitness going,
do you think it would be beneficial?
Yeah, I think if you have the time.
But in terms of? Aerobic development, I think.
Cyclists. Are quite a long way ahead of
runners in terms of like the hours they put in on the bike.
Because you can, if you have the time and you work careful with
it. I think it would definitely add
something. I don't know how much it would
have with ultras, but definitely with marathons, I think it would
take minutes off your time. I think with ultras, because it
is, you know, I think it's a lot.
More about fueling and. Stretch and strength at the end
of the day like you need a certain amount of speed, but
it's more how robust your your body is about keeping your speed
up. Towards the end it might not be
quite as helpful the marathons. I think anything but a marathon
it would really help. You tempted, Michael.
Sorry. You tempted?
What do you do it? I've thought about it.
I've got a. Turbo trainer but I've not I.
Have cycled in the past. But for fun, I've never raced.
It's yeah, it's it's there. It's not not not something.
That I actively. Partaking.
Yeah, I think just because when I was. 18 I was doing 2-3 hours
a day. It's the kind of hours that you
you couldn't really do running or you can, but I don't think
you could do them at the same heart rate and the same
intensity. So I do think it.
Does develop your? Lungs and heart a bit better
than running. Would that have been on a
static? Bike or were you just cycling
out on the roads just for two or three hours?
Yeah, I'm like AI can't. I can't.
Stand doing anything indoors like I'm I'm an outdoors,
outdoors boy, Ferrell trying out question.
Have you had? Any injuries over the years?
Not since. 20 not since. What year did we?
Race to the Katherine 20/17/2017 I did the Katherine.
And then I did the. Larry Crew a month later and did
my IT band in it on the Larry Crew and that was the last
running injury I've had. Embarrassing knee injuries.
Chasing children around. Bending.
And picking up small children but not running.
What do you think? Sort of.
Changed why? Why you're not getting ITB
problems now, particularly when you're running in carbon shoes.
I think that was probably I think.
So when I. Got there.
I didn't after 2017. I didn't do another ultra until
2019 and so built up the mileage quite gradually after that.
I think that's right. Maybe I did one in 2018.
Maybe I did the I. Don't move to.
Glasgow, I can't remember, but just being a bit more careful
about mileage and being a bit racing in those kind of
distances a little bit less frequently.
I think what did it at the time was, you know, an ultra followed
by a marathon, a heavy marathon just under a month afterwards.
It wasn't really the time between to recover.
I think maybe if I I could maybe do it now if I wanted, but like
I said, I I had to go pretty deep into the plane cave to to
get that Catherine in time. So I think if I pushed it a
little. Bit less might.
Have been OK? Have you done a road marathon?
Yeah, I think I did one in 20. 16 maybe think yes I did did the
to go back. Maybe like I I I'd be interested
to. See what it would be?
But like, a bit boring really, isn't it?
I don't know because I swore. I would never do another
marathon again after Edinburgh. Yeah, and I haven't because I
went on to ultras. But since doing this with Mike,
a few people have mentioned Loch Ness.
Yeah, and it's actually came back on to my radar and I fancy
that one. And Dublin.
Dublin Marathon looks a really good one too.
What's good about Dublin, the course or the city?
Or the I think it's just the vibe from it.
I hear really, really good things.
About that? Well, at the time of recording.
There's Thursday. Loch Ness is this weekend.
Yeah, there we go. There entry still open, but
you're actually. With me.
That would be. Interesting the week after the
bling. Yeah, are the are the.
Alpha flies dry. They're dry, but they they.
I kicked a few stones so I don't think they'd probably be good
for another ultra, but maybe not another Rd. marathon.
But yeah, I mean this, this doogie, doogie.
Salman was going to be running the flame this year.
That's what that would have been interesting to see what I think
he's like a 217 ish marathoner. Would have been interesting to
see what he could have done. There's always.
Talk of like. What?
What would happen if Kenyans or a fast marathoner came over?
But what? What do you think?
Well. There's so used to Rd.
That although I said earlier that the West Hadley Way is not
technical, it's not flat. So it's.
Yeah, it'd be interesting. Yeah, they would be.
They would be fast, but it would slow them down.
Yeah, I think they'd be good up to about. 50 miles.
And then, yeah, my struggle. I don't know, I'd love.
To see the Devil's staircase, go nap.
But then if you were. Going to be doing.
A50 mile race, you would train for it, so they would be used to
it. So yeah, it would be
interesting. But then I think the reason they
don't do it is because there's no money in it.
And as great a runner as they are, they're doing it for the
money because it is one of the most lucrative things that they
can do in their societies. So, yeah, yeah.
Can they do, comrades? Comrades.
The one in South Africa, The double marathon down there?
Yeah, Fast, I think, I think. There's decent money in it,
isn't there? Yeah, there probably is.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I. Think one more off the cuff
question. As well that I have is I've done
Lakeland. No, I was.
I was. I was.
I did. Fancy it And I was going to
enter and then yeah, I think entry is open for about 3 days
so I'm not entering. I think they do a.
Charity Place. Where you've got to raise it
used to be you had to raise £100 plus you pay your entry fee.
So it's an option, yeah. I would like to go raise down at
the lakes at some point, maybe late, late in the day as well,
but I think that's in a couple of weeks.
So I won't be doing that one either.
So the final question that we do.
Have is what? Is next for your running wise.
I haven't. Thought that far ahead, Yeah.
Have a good winter. I think I'll pick something for
training for now the now the devil is in the spring.
Maybe the devil will be the fling again.
Because. I love the lock side.
And then if you've done those two, you would.
Have to do the West. Island way, so.
Definitely. I've definitely got some
unfinished business on the. West Island way the complete
race but I'm not sure I can do next year.
Not sure I have to ask for some advice.
From Rob Sinclair around how to. Beat So I thought, go away for a
few years, he says. And go and do some marathons.
And come back, yeah, but I think.
What he's done is gone. And done more like Sky races.
Yeah, that's that's what he's been doing.
Well, that's I think brings us to a close.
And got to say thank you, Ryan, for coming on.
Thank you, Nikki, for being Nikki.
And it's goodbye from me. Thanks for coming on.
Thank you. Very much for having.
Me.