Hello and welcome to another episode of Run Till You're Done.
Today we are joined by someone who proves loudly and
unapologetically that it is never too late to completely
rewrite your life. Our guest didn't start running
until his 40s, and since then he's gone on to race some of the
toughest and most epic ultra events on the planet.
From the UTNB series to the wild landscapes of Chile and Spain
where he now splits his time, he's built a global following by
being honest, raw, and refreshingly unfiltered about
the highs, lows, and the absolute madness of ultra
running. He's a coach, storyteller and
adventurer and a fantastic example of what can happen when
you stop making excuses and you start moving forward.
Welcome to the show, Ian Morgan. Wow.
Thanks, Nikki, and hi, Mike, and thanks for the introduction.
I always feel like when whenever I do a podcast, I feel like
you're introducing someone else that's done a whole lot of
things in their life. And you know, for me, it's this
is just, it's just what I do. So it's not, it's my normal
everyday life. So yeah, I appreciate all the
kudos though. Well, not a problem.
Welcome to the show, Ian. Since it is your everyday life,
tell us how how did you first get into this being your
everyday? Well, I had quite a different
life. I didn't do any sport.
I did when I was in school, high school, and I did do some cross
country and hiking and those kinds of things.
But well, Fast forward to my mid 40s and I was in an ongoing
court case with the government of New Zealand fighting to
change the law on a certain topic around insurance.
And, and we had some big earthquakes and I was under a
lot of stress, a lot of pressure trying to run a business.
My marriage at the time was falling apart and in divorce.
So I was under a lot of stress, a lot of pressure.
And I thought, man, this is hard.
Like I thought I'd made it. I'd I'd bought the house, I had
the cars, I had an amazing business and I was really happy,
or what I thought was happy that that was meant to be the sorry,
the definition of success and happiness.
But I just felt quite empty inside.
And not to say that it was the circumstances around me that
were causing that, but it was more, I wasn't being true to
myself. And I just thought, when was I
last happy? And I thought when I was a kid
and I was running in the hills behind the house, just playing
and mucking around and I just thought, yeah, maybe that's it.
Maybe if I just get up and run I can catch that feeling again.
Let's just say the first few runs I didn't catch that feeling
just about killed me. However, that was the turning
point. It was just this, I don't know,
desire to seek something out that was pure, simple and
something I could immerse myself in that that wasn't all the
noise that was going on at the time.
And do you think looking back at the pre running life that is
what you were looking for? Just what was it that you were
searching for when you decided you wanted to start the running?
Yeah, I mean, honestly, at that point in time, it was escape.
You know, I'll be entirely honest.
And, you know, that sounds pretty mature.
It's like, oh, well, you're going to literally run away from
your problems. Yeah, 100%.
That's how I felt at the time. Obviously that's grown and
developed. Now it's it's it's more form of,
you know, meditation. It's it's part of me and what I
do. It doesn't define me and it
allows me to do wow, just these incredible things that I never
imagined. So yeah, I mean, I would say
honestly, it was initially an escape.
Do you think there was a a point, either a race or an event
that you just went? This is what I do now.
Yeah. You know, it's an interesting
one. There were probably two or three
points like that and probably the defining one that that made
me 100% commit to this is what I do now was when I collapsed in a
race down in Queenstown, which is a mountain town on the South
Island of New Zealand. And I was taken to hospital.
And that's when they found out about my heart issues.
And then I remember the one of the doctors in the cardiac ward
said, well, that's the end of your running days.
You know, now you're going to have to take it easy and slow
down. And I thought, no, I want to do
the opposite now. I want to embrace life and
really live it, So yeah, I think that would have been the
catalyst to really commit to this lifestyle.
Did you think that it's it's all over, but I'm going to live what
I've got left or where you're thinking I'm going to change my
life. I'm going to get fit.
I'm going to be the best I can be.
Yeah. I mean, it's a combination of
both. Because you know, I looked at
the research, I mean, I did actually go to two or three
different cardiologists and then found one that was also an ultra
runner and they said, Oh no, that's absolute rubbish.
You can live a completely healthy life.
You can do amazing things. You do have to make some
fundamental changes. And probably a lot of it was
related to how I dealt with stress.
I mean, there was obviously diet and lifestyle, et cetera, but
yeah, I had to look at a lot of different aspects of my life
and, and say, OK, the things I can change, I have to the things
I can't change, you know, I have to accept.
But there's other things I need to to try to do better with.
And and yeah, that was a turning point in a lot of different
ways. I'd like to ask, sorry mate,
just to jump in. We're talking about your old
life and this life. We say, you know, you know that
it's almost like those two IANS. Did you completely leave your
job and everything as well to do this full time?
And if so, how were you brave enough to leave like that?
Financial security as such. Well, the amazing thing about
lying on an operating table and people poking around inside your
heart is, yeah, you start giving a crap.
Can I say that you. Can say whatever you want.
You start giving a crap about what everyone thinks and and
what's going to happen because the chances are you're not there
the next moment. So it's kind of gives you a new
perspective on how to live life and you realize the things that
you used to think were risky really aren't.
The biggest risk is, is not taking a chance, is not trying
to live a life that's more authentic to what I don't know
you, you believe is the way you should live it.
What's the worst that can happen?
I mean, I've already been on the operating table.
OK, Yeah. The worst that can happen is you
don't get up from it. And, you know, if you get a
chance, you get up from it, you move forward.
Now, don't take this the wrong way.
I'm not suggesting that everyone just go and live their fantasy,
you know, leave their families and do whatever, you know, OK,
I'm not paying bills anymore because that's not part of my
plan. Yeah.
You know, OK, I'm a realist, too.
I realize it takes time and planning.
And it's taken many years to get to the point where this became a
relatively sustainable lifestyle.
It wasn't just I woke up one day, transitioned into this and,
you know, two or three months later.
Wow, It's fantastic. It's been a a lot of hard work
in it and, and I wouldn't say, you know, there's obviously
there's, I'm still the same guy. You know, my perspective of chat
has changed on some things, but it's not like, well, there's one
life here and that's gone and now there's this life.
It's just a transition. I think we all change through
our lives. I mean, we're not the same as we
were when we were in our 20s. Are we like right now?
So, you know, we move forward, we change things something stay
the same. And I think you just as you get
older, you start to embrace the new and the things that you
really enjoy and you start to leave a lot of the baggage that
you've been carrying behind when you realize really most of it
isn't very important at all. Listeners will know that I've,
I've had heart surgery as well and there's been times that I've
looked back at what, what you call your previous life and sort
of pre, pre surgery, pre heart condition.
It's been any points that you've thought, Oh, that makes sense
that that I, I had a condition. It's like I've or things like
I've been up in the hills on my own in stupid temperatures that
you, it's things you really shouldn't be doing even if
you're 100% fit and you just think, yeah, I shouldn't have
done that. Is there any moments like that?
Yeah. Yeah, I still do it, yeah.
But yeah, having, having that surgery gives you a more an
awareness around not just, you know, not just for your own
life, but you start to think, OK, if something goes wrong
here, then there's going to be people worried about me.
Someone's going to have to organize someone to find me.
And there's, there's going to be consequences outside of what I'm
just living my life and doing my thing, you know, So you do have
to take that into account and, and, you know, plan accordingly
for that. Like a, if I'm going to do
anything really long, I'm going to let people know where I'm
going. I do take emergency heart
medication with me if it's a the old Nitro pill under the tongue,
that kind of thing. So I, you know, I'm more
practical in the sense of I realize I do have a heart
condition and I can't just like, push it and the hell with
everything. So, yeah, you know, there is an
awareness around that and well, I still like to take risks in
certain areas. You know, they're they're
calculated and managed. Do you think that because you
know about your condition like I, I've been told that I've got
a fully functioning heart now. And what I said to myself is,
well, I know that I can push it now because everybody else in
the race doesn't know what they've got wrong with them.
100% Actually, this is a really good point because when I was
doing one of the stress tests, my, my heart actually stopped
when I was on the treadmill. And, and the, the cardiologist
too is doing the test. He, he got me on the, on the
scanner and that they did an echo of my heart and you could
see it beating and then stopping and then beating again.
And it's a really weird sensation, you know, part of
your heart shutting down while you're breathing and then you
feel the pain and the tightness. Yeah, it back to the point that
I was doing the test, he said, well, that's kind of your limit
where things start to go wrong with your heart.
So now when I get to that point and I go past it, I think it's
fine. It's all the pipes are cleared,
everything's working, the muscles strong.
Yeah. Whereas someone else that
doesn't know, they don't know when it's going to happen or how
it's going to happen. But it's kind of like, you know,
you know, it's your Formula One engines been taken apart and
stripped down. It's been all been checked clean
bill of health back together. Now you're on the racetrack
where you go and and yeah, you can push it a lot more.
I I didn't realize what fatigue was until I didn't have it after
the heart surgery. You know, like the level of
fatigue I was dealing with in training and I thought that was
normal. And then all of a sudden your
new normal is is quite. Different.
So did you feel that you or do you feel now that you were being
held back previously? Yeah, 100%.
Yeah. Yeah, I think over the last, I
think the last year I felt relatively OK was about
2020-2021. And I, I came off an ultra race
in, in Spain, 100K mountain ultra race off to put an O.
Then a few weeks later I did the Barcelona Marathon because at
the time it was COVID. So that changed the date to the
end of the year instead of in spring.
And I think I ran a 250 at that marathon off the back of 100
kilometer ultra. And I thought wow, I'm just like
on fire. I'm just like keep going.
I'm feeling really good. And then I all of a sudden I, my
blood pressure shot up to something like crazy, 200 and
10220 / 160, something like ridiculous.
And I felt like my heart was beating out my chest.
And from that point it sort of went away and they gave me some
pills. From that point.
From about 2021 it started to my performance started to
deteriorate. And I'm sure we'll get back to
talking about the important things like heart conditions,
but for now you split your time between Chile and Spain.
What's the sort of cultural differences between the two?
Particularly coming towards running, Yeah, I mean, I think
Spain is just quite an established ultra trail and
running community that I've been doing it for a long time.
There's a lot of incredible events there.
Whereas Chile now, it's re established.
The first time I came to Chile in 2017, it was still a growing
sport, but not huge. It was still sort of like, I
don't know, we're still like in its early stages in Chile.
So it was a developing but still very small community, a little
bit Wild West in some ways, which was quite cool actually.
But now I'd say Chile has certainly done a lot of catching
up with the European type events in Spain.
There's a difference in the sense that Spanish culture and
Latino culture, while they're very similar, there are some
quite big differences. There's there's a lot more music
at Latin, Latin American events, a lot more music and dancing at
the end. I don't know how they do it
actually. They just run a race.
But yeah, it's it's in the culture, probably still a lot of
a lot more community within the Chilean trail trail running
space. A lot of people know each other
for a connected, whereas Spain is is like that as well.
But it's just so much bigger that you you just don't know
everybody. So it's a huge country, a lot of
people, but both incredible trail running cultures and I
love them. How do you?
Sorry, Mike. Why?
Why are you split between the two?
I was going to ask the same. Well, you want the truth, OK.
We love the summer, me and my wife Fran, who's also an
orchestra runner, We love the sun.
And you know, I, we, I lived in the South of New Zealand, which
is quite cold and wet in the winter, gets down to the, you
know -5 -, 8 frosts, sometimes a bit of snow.
And that's fine. No problems with that.
But I've done that for 40 something odd years.
And I just thought, you know, if I get the opportunity to do
this, I'd love to go from summer to summer.
And Fran and I both like the heat.
We both like the sun. So we thought, well, you know,
Fran's a Spanish citizen. I've got a residency there.
I can live in Chile six months of the year on my tourist visa
or three months, and then renew it every three months after
that. So it just made sense.
Friend has a beach house here in Chile.
So it's kind of like, why not? Why not go from summer to
summer? We tried a few years ago and we
loved it. We just loved it.
No more winter. We can choose winter, I think
would be the term. If we want to go to the
mountains when it's colder, we can do it.
But we choose to live somewhere that's sunny most of the time
and thought, well, we haven't got that many summers left, so
let's let's double them each year and then, you know, we can
go from there. Well, the forecast here just
north of Aberdeen in Scotland tonight is -5 so.
I can, I can, I can relate to that.
I used to live in those temperatures.
Nothing wrong with it, like I said, but if you're a summer
person and a sun person, it just makes sense to to be in these
places. Also like who would not want,
you know, Spain, incredible food culture.
We live by the Mediterranean when we're there in a town,
about 30,000 people when we're here, we live between the beach
and in Santiago and the Andes mountains, like they're about
that way about four kilometers away.
And I'm at the foot of the Andes and a while ago and I can run up
to, you know, 345000 meter peaks.
So yeah, it's, I'm pretty lucky actually.
I must admit, I really do appreciate living between two
countries. Or the ability to, yeah.
If I had. The but sorry, I was going to
say, you say luck, but it's a life you've made for yourself
so. Yeah, I I still believe like,
you know what I mean, part of it is, but part of it is just being
in the right place at the like right time, saying yes to
opportunity, taking a chance. I mean, it's not all been smooth
sailing sailing. I haven't just transitioned into
this doing visas, paperwork, tax issues, all the related things.
It's, it's a bit of a nightmare at times trying to, you know,
you're not really living anywhere but but you're, you're
always somewhere. So it can, it's, it's a bit like
juggling at times. However, I love the lifestyle so
much that that that's part of the price you pay.
Yeah. So you, you've done a fair
amount of UT MB series races. I don't know if this is going to
be a hard question for you to answer.
Do you have a favorite? Wow.
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I think, and I know it sounds
cliche, but UTMB Mont Blanc is, it's just such a big event.
Yeah, it's super commercial. Yes, all the brands are there,
but so are so many people from around the world that that, you
know, you might be chatting with on social media and, and you
actually get to meet them in person.
You get to experience that whole, like, vibe and buzz of
the community trial community, international trial community.
Yeah. There are some aspects of it
that go away pretty exhausted, to be honest, from that week.
And that's before the race, you know, just just turning up.
But I think that will be my favorite UTMB event.
I mean, there's so many out there.
We'd like to do some in China and Asia this year, which we're
working on at the moment. So, yeah, I can't say, you know,
that might change in the future, but for now, yeah.
Mount Block. And looking at your Instagram,
you've obviously as as part of your transitioning, you've
gotten a bit jacked. How does things like cardio, You
don't want your to ruin your gains to doing too much cardio.
You your your your macros. You don't want to be eating too
much carbs depending on which body of thought you go down.
How does running fuel and running itself interfere with
physique? Once again, I don't really care
that much about tracking anything.
I think I'm genetically very lucky.
For some reason, I just, yeah, when it comes to race season,
I'm just running so much that I just cut back.
Obviously I lose weight just because I'm just training so
much. I just can't eat enough to to
maintain, I don't know, a larger body weight in the offseason,
I'll gain 3 or 4 kilos. That's cool.
I don't really focus so much on like macros or, you know,
whether I'm losing or gaining muscle.
If I want to gain muscle, I do like six weeks of like more
intense gym and strength type workouts.
And I seem to be able to like within six weeks it it's there
and yeah, maybe run a bit less. And then when I'm training for a
mountain event, I'll lose a bit of the muscle and, and a bit of
body weight just because of the sheer volume of what I do.
And yeah, then I'm roundabout race weight.
So I, I wish I could say it was cleverly planned and carefully
measured. And, and my, my wife says I hate
you. She said it's, it's, that's not
fair. She said a friend is like, she's
measuring everything. And she said, how do you do it?
It's not fair. She says you're eating like
chocolate and you know, the whatever croissants.
And then all of a sudden, six weeks later, you're like, your
abs are there and away you go. I think, yeah, there's a certain
element of, once again, I'd say luck in it.
And also, I think once you know your body, you realize that, OK,
this is going to take about 8 weeks to do and I need to cut
back on this and I need to do that.
So you kind of get it used to the routines.
But outside of the season, when I'm not really, like, racing,
I'm quite happy, you know, the ABS will go and, you know, get a
little bit tighter around the waist.
And I just accept that, you know, that's cool because I know
I don't have to be disciplined all year.
I'm human. And.
And what difference does it make?
Like, who really cares? Like, yeah, for social media.
OK, do the posts and. And it's like, you know, I did
them as a kind of a joke at first because someone dared me
to do it, and then it took off. Social media is kind of a funny
game. But yeah, so I've kept doing it.
And they, you know, let's be honest.
Like, I laugh at myself a bit about it.
I don't stand on top of mountains without a shirt
standing like this. No one does.
I just go on a run. But, you know, it creates
traction, which creates followers and attention, which
then allows me to do what I really want to do in this this
life. So it's kind of like a job that
I do. But yeah, most of the time I
walk around with a shirt on and just a normal guy.
So can I? Just see and see.
If I had ABS like yours I would walk around showing them all.
So during race season, during hard training efforts, whatever,
how do you feel? How do I feel?
Yeah, I do watch things more carefully.
Probably switch to higher carbohydrate during training.
I tend to take on, yeah, a fair bit of fuel and racing even more
so. It's kind of cyclical.
It's like when I mentioned it, the last question, you know,
I'll cut back on certain things and increase other things.
So I do actually look at that side of it.
I don't just wing it anymore because, you know, as we get
older, we do need every advantage we can to help us in
our performance. So yeah, in that in that sense,
I would increase carbohydrate intake, especially during and
just after training or probably pre, during and post training.
Not so much the rest of the time.
But I do tend to have more in race season just for the mere
fact. If I didn't, I would probably
get quite sick. My bloods would show that, you
know, I'm. I'm not fueling and eating
enough. And, you know, I don't want to
get into a situation where, you know, it's another stress on the
body. You.
Something I can't reiterate enough in the sport is I don't
think a lot of people eat enough.
And I think it's really important that you do.
Yeah. OK.
It's easy to say. People say you're a skinny guy.
It's easy for you. Yeah.
OK. Genetically, there might be
something there that that does make it easier.
However, I'd rather be a bit bigger and well fueled then, you
know, skinny race weight and like just a mess inside
metabolically. So I think that's really
important. Just eat enough and drink enough
people. As Mike was saying as well,
you've went from your previous lifestyle to jacked out with
this season and like you know where you're at now because we
know that you are a runner now at the very, very start of
you're done there from that amazing picture that's on the
social media, how did you get from the very beginning to where
you are now? Did you just cut things were bad
for you back initially? Good question, Nikki.
Yeah, I mean, I did initially. I knew myself well enough to
know that if I had things in the house that I like to snack on, I
was going to eat them even no matter how much Willpower or
David Goggins videos or whatever you want, you know, I can't
remember who it was at the time, but you know, no matter how much
motivation you have, you're just going to do it.
Like that's that's me. I'm speaking from personal
experience. So I just removed those from my
diet for six months and I said, if I can remove it for six
months and then I will reintroduce certain things and
if it's still a problem, then I won't have it anymore.
If it's not, then, you know, and what I learned is it wasn't so
much the foods or alcohol or whatever that was the issue.
It was actually, you know, me and how I, my relationship with
those things. So I think that changed removing
them initially and then bringing them back in.
I realized, you know, a lot of things about myself, what I
could manage, what I could. I don't like to use the word
control because then you've got an issue if you have to control
it. But what I could have in my life
and it was OK and then what I couldn't.
And yeah, so I think now I can eat, you know, most things that
I used to have around because I just don't really feel like
eating them all the time anymore.
But there's still, there was a period of a say six months where
I said, cut everything, eat really healthy, really lean,
plan and measure everything and then get to know yourself and
what you could at what you need to work on and, and go from
there. And, and to be, to be fair, I
did that for six months, then then reintroduced some things
and then spent another six months to a year working on
things like strength training and, and like building a more
resilient body. I think would be not, not to
look a certain way on Instagram, but the one that could put a
pack on and hike up a mountain and do all these kinds of
things. Very practical in the sense that
I want to be able to do the sport for as long as I can.
And I realized for me that because I'm 6 foot 1 or 187 ish
centimeters, that if I'm carrying too much weight that,
you know, I just don't feel good.
I don't have the energy to do it.
So I stay in sort of this white range to be able to do that.
But yeah, back to your question, yeah, initial restriction and
then reintroducing things that that is what worked for me.
No, everything in moderation. Yeah, yeah, in moderation.
I I've got chocolate in the other room.
I had some just before. Don't tell anyone but but, but
you know, and that's fine because I don't have to eat the
whole block at once. You know it.
Your life changes in that sense that, that you, you just change
when you change the habit. Restrict, maybe restrict
something in my case, and you don't have to restrict things.
Some people can do it and, and just minimize things and that's
fine. If if you know yourself and know
that you're good at that, do it. There's no right or wrong way.
It's what works best for you and and what you want to achieve.
I really, you know, think that everyone has got to find their
way of doing it. It's a bit like training.
There's a lot of different ways to get to the same point.
Yeah, there's some obviously standard paths we can use and
that are proven. But I think everyone has to do
it their own way to get to that point.
And and the way that works best for you is is the one that's
going to be the most successful. So thank you for that.
That was a great breakdown on the Dire and how you've got to
where you are. You've had a lot of races out
with even UT MB. What is the hardest moment that
you've ever had in a race and what got you through it?
Yeah, that's a good one. You know, I think the most of
them have been probably, this is a good question because there's
two, but I'll say one, probably one of the hardest moments was a
DNF when I ran into a tree in the middle of the night.
Now, random thing, I've just been sent some new headlights.
I won't name the, the brand, some new model headlights from
a, from a potential sponsor to use.
And I, I, you know, nothing new on race day except the new
headlights. So I had two new headlights, put
one on. I was running through the night,
was raining, got up to the top of the the biggest climb and was
running down through a forest, still raining and just in one
instant headlight was bright, just turned off.
So shut off and I ran. There was a branch like with
about head height across the path.
And the moment the lights shut off, I ran into the branch and I
smacked my head like, like you imagine running down a hill into
a branch that you didn't realize was there.
Knocked myself out, woke up, I think about four minutes, 5
minutes. I don't know.
So I remember someone like shaking me and I sort of came to
and then, yeah, I said, no, I'm OK, I'm OK.
The guy person I can't remember is a guy or a girl actually said
to you, OK. I said, yeah, I think I just ran
into that tree. Must have thought I was loopy
you know And so yeah, I got up ran down the rest of the
mountain and then realized I had no balance.
I I couldn't put 1 foot in front of the other.
I was stumbling got into the next aid station where actually
Fran had come in the car to meet me to crew me and she said you
look terrible. It was like white.
I think I've still got a picture somewhere of it.
I was like white as a sheep. I couldn't like really even
speak properly. So they, the the doctor, I got
into the age station, Fran said you're not finishing, you're not
continuing. Saw the doctor and he did the
test with the the light in the eyes and he said hospital
please. And yeah, they found I had
pretty nasty concussion. Pulled all the muscles in the
neck as well from the snap back on the neck actually.
So yeah, that, that was probably hardest physical moment.
I did break my shoulder in a race too.
Oh, and I had the heart attack. Yeah, there's actually quite a
few. Let's just stick with the first
one. But that was that was a DNF that
was hard because it was like, it's just such a random thing to
happen. And as a footnote to that story,
I sent the the that exact light back to the manufacturer because
actually my head, it was sort of like just above the light, like
on this top bit of the head, my head took the brunt of the the,
the branch. I sent the headlight back and
they actually found a fault with it or a wire had broken
internally. And they did apologize
profusely. So you know what happens.
But yeah, that that was probably one of the most challenging
moments in a race. And obviously that's outside
interference, but do you have a a point where you've actually
felt that you've been pushed to your limits?
Running in running in the deserts in where was it in in
the Sahara in Tunisia, they that there was meant to be an aid
station at a certain point in the middle of the Sahara desert,
middle of the day running. So you're carrying a certain
amount of water, but you know where the next aid station is?
Well, that aid station was just a meant to be a truck with like
a small tent, sort of, you know, portable marquee kind of thing
over it. Well, that truck had broken down
and hadn't got there. So they sent a truck, another
truck to pick up the water and the tent to take to this place.
And that truck broke down. So I got to the aid station just
out of water and there's no truck.
And I look at the GPX and I said, hey, I'm on the right
course. I've changed the course.
There's nothing here. And another guy came through and
he said, yeah, where is it? So just carried on.
And that extra, I think 15 kilometers, you know, 10
kilometers plus another 15. So 25 kilometers in the middle
of the day in the Sahara Desert without water just about killed
me. Like, I got to the next aid
station. I, I hopped in one of the cruise
Land Cruisers and turned, they turned on the air con and I just
sat there for 10 minutes drinking water.
And yeah, that was, I didn't realize then until that point
how much a lack of, you know, severe, more severe hydration
can affect you. And that was pretty dangerous.
I actually started to pee blood, which is, you know, obviously
can be a sign of kidney damage and issues more due to lack of
hydration than anything. So yeah, that that was a pretty
challenging moment. But I, I didn't ever think of
giving up. I just thought of just keep
pushing through to the finish, which I did and.
Have you ever thought of doing the the races that I do now?
Backyard Altos, do you? Even know what they are yes yes,
they're entering I actually trained a few clients in the US
that that do those I think they're incredible yeah.
I think that the mental aspect of it is something that that I'm
definitely going to have a crack at because I just, you know, I
can only imagine, like in your experience, what it's like to to
just, you know, there's obviously the physical
exhaustion and the lack of sleep, but mentally, where does
that take you? And what happens at those points
where you know, what is your limit?
Can you keep going is what stops you?
Is it the physical? Was it the mental?
Is it a combination? Fascinates me.
Yeah, the same with me. I don't think that I've reached
my limit yet and I I crave to find it so.
Yeah, you know, I think that's a common theme among all amongst
almost all runners. I spent mostly ultra runners.
Would you agree with that, Nikki?
Do you find that you want to you, you almost want to break
yourself to see, OK, you know, is there a point?
Is there a point where I just can't go on or or can I just
keep going until literally something stops me?
Like, you know, whether that's physical or, or, you know, I
literally can't crawl anymore. I think it's a fascinating
thing. I think we're all a little bit
broken inside somewhere. Maybe children and This is why
we're like this. I really don't know.
I definitely think the mental gets to you before the physical
100% if you've pushed yourself in any event.
And this is for anyone even from like you know smaller distances
to the bigger ones. Whatever is your challenge, it's
your mind will push you as far as it will take you.
For sure, for sure. And I think that's that's the
fascinating thing. I think that's that's such a
common thing. We're all searching for that
point of where do I give up? You know, where, where is where
is where is it too much? Where do I say no because I
don't know. I think we've probably all been
and, and this is all relative to your experience, to your,
everyone's different. They don't try to say just
because someone's done this, that, that I'm a lesser or more
person because of it, because everyone's experience is
different, what someone's limit is.
So I, I think that's really interesting, but I think the
thing what I've seen is people that are hell of a lot stronger
than they believe they are. Definitely.
I think I've seen some incredible things where I
thought, man, why doesn't that person just give up?
And, and it's things like I'm not talking about the guys that
run a marathon in two hours or come first in an ultra.
I'm talking about the guy that comes in last at something like
UTMB that's that's leaning over like this and everything looks
broken and two knees bloodied. Or the mother that runs into the
finish line and three of the kids greet her, knowing that
she's raising a family and doing this incredible thing.
You know, those are the people that inspire me.
And I just think, you know, they're trying to do the same
thing. They're trying to find their
limits. What are they capable of?
And, and it gives me a lot of hope for, for humans actually,
when I see that, because I think, man, we can do some
incredible things if we put our minds and bodies to it.
Yeah, and relate to what you've just said.
I I've said to people in the past, you, you are better than
you think you are. Yeah, you are more capable of
doing it. You just need to convince
yourself that you can do it. 100% I mean, how many times do
we say that to other people? Yeah, you're going to smash it.
You are so capable. But then we go to ourselves and
we go, you're so stupid. Why did you do that?
Why that? You know, man, stop putting
yourself down. Start.
I know it's not, you know, in our culture to lift ourselves up
publicly. But we've got to pat ourselves
on the back internally. It's such a big, big thing
because would you speak to your kids or your partner that way or
would you the way you speak to yourself?
And I think it's really important change that narrative.
Start saying, yeah, man, I'm going to absolutely nail this.
I'm going to push as hard as I can.
I'm going to do it. I always visualize myself
crossing the finish line. And it doesn't matter if I get
there or not. The point is I'm, that's, that's
the goal. And you know, it's going to take
quite a lot to stop me getting there.
I think of the DNS I've had, they've all been, yeah, of all
the DNA, all the DNS I've had about 3-3 or four now have all
been medically advised or medically I've been removed from
the race. I've never had one where I've
actually just stopped because I didn't want to.
So I've had relatively good reasons.
Well, they're not reasons I I just got pulled from the race.
And something that they've just thought of might be medically
told to stop the race, but hallucinations?
Have you had any and what were they?
Were. They caused by walking in a
tree. Yeah, actually, yeah, that that
one. No hallucinations there, but the
the ones were run through the night or some of the multi stage
races where you've had like 100 kilometer stage and and you're
already tired from a couple of stages before that.
Yeah, hallucinations, yeah, all the time, pretty much enjoy them
now. First time was was a bit unsure,
but now it's it's part of the course.
You realize it's coming. You start to see people tree as
a person and animals and things moving, and they're fascinating
because it's so real when you see it.
And then you realize the logical part of your brain says, you
know it's not real, but it's still there, and that's what you
see. Any highlights?
There's people dancing, talking, people talking to me and at me,
starting to have a conversation with them.
You know, I can't think of men, animals, like just different
types of animals, dogs, cats, rabbits, those kinds of things.
But yeah, nothing. One that I wish was a
hallucination, but it wasn't, was I was running in Mexico and
the Copper Canyons and some drug cartel guys from the wasn't
there in the area. Sinaloa Cartel were there.
I came around the corner on motorbikes with machine guns and
things and they said you're not coming this way.
I was, you know, running gear, running in this race, and they
said, you're not coming this way, Gringo.
They said, this is like, this is our area, you got to go back
that way. And I thought, oh, OK.
So I had to take a shortcut to to I wish that was a
hallucination. That was a little bit scary.
I was going to ask, was that a hallucination or did that
happen? No, it actually happened.
Yeah. Oh my God.
It's part, of course, ultra running.
But I think they realized they knew a race was happening, so
they knew. I think it was just I'd gone
probably a little bit too close to where they were doing what
they were doing, but that's OK. Not that they were doing
anything wrong at all. Nothing wrong at all.
So from the scary and the laws
of races, have you ever had a moment that you can remember now
that jumps out, that still gives you gifts bumps?
Scary's and Low's? No, Probably sudden moments,
things like falling. Sometimes it's like, OK, I'm by
this Cliff, I'm actually going over and sort of not quite those
moments can be pretty scary. Generally moments that they're
not like scary, but in the sense of shocking is like, you know,
standing on a snake, something like that.
Those kinds of things, especially like like when I was
running around LA lot of rattlesnakes, those kind of
things like disturbing those and they coil up and you think, oh
shit, that's could could bite me.
You know, it's more just a oh moment.
But you know, I've been bitten by dogs, I've been chased by
various animals, snakes, whatever.
You kind of get used. Sorry, what about happy moments?
Like happy moments? Ghost bumps in that way.
Yeah, OK, happy moments, probably so many, but probably
ones that stand out. Running in Dubai in the deserts
towards the border with Oman and running in this area.
It was like a sea of sand dunes and watching the sun come now,
the sunset and just seeing like the shadows and the, the, you
know, a million different colors of 1000 different colors of pink
and orange in the shadows over the sand dunes and sort of
running in that. And I was running with two or
three other people and we all just went quiet.
And you're all just looking at this and I'm just thinking it
just gives you goosebumps in the sense that, wow, it's like I'm
here doing this and and just incredible.
Yeah. I think just so many moments
like that when you're in these races and events and you you
came around a corner when you see this mountain vessel in the
Dolomites running there, seeing the sun come up over the
mountains, you know, seeing the sunset and the desert just just
just gives me goosebumps thinking about them.
And I just think, you know, this is what ultra running is.
You get to see these places that that and experience the ACT,
being in the place at at that moment that we just don't get so
much in our normal everyday life.
So yeah, I'm really grateful for those those kinds of moments.
And we're going to move on to quick fire round.
We'll ask the questions quickly or probably not.
You can take as long as you want to answer it.
You've you weren't just pre recording that you waffle on.
That's fine with us. OK, OK.
So favorite. Race snack, Favorite race snack.
There's two or three. You know, I really like Mars
bars when I'm, when I'm running. I don't know why I don't eat
them the rest of the time, but Mars bars that that's, I should
say, the gels my sponsors gives me.
But I've got to be honest. It'll be Mars bars, yeah.
I think we're on. Do they not melt?
If it's a mountain race, not so much.
If it's a hot race, yeah. Who are your sponsors?
Sponsors for nutrition sport hunger, which is like, it's kind
of like the feed but in German and Europe.
So like they do all all sorts of different nutrition products and
Bix Fix Hydration, which is run by an ultra runner called Vlad
and they do some great products to gels and powders, etcetera.
So yeah, thanks guys. I really appreciate the support.
Not sure that you get either of those in the UK.
I've not heard of them, so we'll have to look them up.
Yeah. Anyway, back to the quick fire
question. Back to the questions.
What's next? Motivation or discipline?
Discipline. Easy favorite trail?
Chile or Spain or anywhere else? I don't want to get divorced, so
I should again. So I should say Chile, my friend
to be to be fair, my my wife friend is is Chilena and
Espanola. So she's Spanish and Chilean.
So yeah, let's let's say Chile with Spain, a very, very close
second. What one race you'll never do
again. Should I say?
Yes. That's a tough one because I I
really like the race. Owners pass it.
Doesn't even have to be for a bad reason, it's just it could
be something even that you have peaked on that race and you
that's the best time you'll ever get.
Yeah, I mean, I will probably say, I don't know, I can't say
that either. I was going to say the Boston
Marathon because I've done it three times, but Fran wants to
run it and I want to run it with her.
So yeah, that's a really tough one because I just love every
race is so different and I love them all, even the ones that
don't go according to plan. So yeah, I'm going to have to
pass on that one. Guys, I'm sorry.
I just can't answer it. That's OK.
When you've mentioned the marathon major there, I'm going
to throw in another quick fire extra.
How many Star major styles do you have?
One, I've only ever run Boston. I'm.
Saying just one as if I've got. I, I never progressed.
I love ultra running like so much.
I never sort of have gone back to do the road stuff.
I enjoy the road stuff. I'll do a marathon now and
again, jump in and then half marathon.
But it it just would take a lot of time and financial commitment
to do the rest of the majors. I mean, if Abbott's is listening
and you want to invite me, guys, I'm there.
But yeah, apart from that, maybe I'll do it when I'm 60.
Let's see. I always find ultras.
The question is did you complete it?
You mentioned you've done marathons, so what's your PB?
Two, I think 250, two 48250, something around that.
So I'm not, I'm not a fast Rd. guy.
It's, it's, it's something I haven't really focused on.
You know, I run about A248250 marathon, about a 1118 to 120
half, but it's not my thing. I I, I enjoy it.
And I think, you know, I had a coach a few years ago that said,
you know, if you focused on this for six months, you could
probably really do a lot better in that area.
But it's, I just love trails so much that, yeah, I couldn't give
six months up just to pound the pavements.
Yeah, it's just not my thing. And the last question that we
have on the quick fire round is you have built a big following
by being unfiltered and open. Has that ever felt risky?
No. Not at all.
I mean, let's be honest, it's it's not real.
Like, I'm not being like disrespectful to followers or
social media, but it's, it's all unknown for posts with me being
fat and then shirtless with ABS. Like, come on.
It's not don't take yourself so seriously.
Like, I think you've got to accept that I'm grateful for
what I have. It's allowed me to do so much.
But if I'm not being myself, then what am I doing it for?
Like really. Like, yeah, there's a bit of
promotion and advertising and, and yeah, I do like do some
stuff that that's going to like, you know, trigger the algorithm
to, to help with follower growth and exposure.
But it's like work. It's like anything else for me.
It's how I make my living. So yeah, I don't take myself too
seriously. Like I'm a 55 year old guy, you
know, posting shirtless pics on on Instagram and come on.
Like, like you got to laugh. That, that, that, you know, it's
allowed me to do what I do. I'm also very grateful to the
people that follow me. And, and it's no, like I said,
no disrespect to them at all, but I think when you start
taking yourself too seriously and think that you're important
or someone, you know, that look at me, then you just, you should
walk away and do something else because, because you know, like
it's just luck, isn't it? Let's be honest, there's a
million people in the world that can do it and that do do it.
And there's people that have millions of followers that do
this. So I really just like, you know,
yeah, wake up each day super grateful I get to do it.
But yeah, I'm still going to be me.
Do it my way. If people like it, great.
If they want to follow, great. If not, that's cool too.
And moving or staying on that topic, the social media sort of
things. We already said that you'd had
heart surgery. And.
I I can relate to that because being there myself, How do you
think that that has shaped you as a person, as an athlete, as
your social media presence? Yeah, Now that's an interesting
one because that's actually how I got on social media, my
daughter, my my doctor and then said you should carry a phone
when you run because I didn't used to carry a phone when I ran
before that. So I started to carry a phone
and I started to take pictures and things.
Well, I mean, I didn't carry a phone much.
I didn't really take social media seriously.
And my daughter said, hey, look, you should post some of this
stuff on social media. Now you're carrying a phone.
The places you run, they look super cool.
That's how it started. So kind of got, I have to thank
like having the heart problems to that led me to really expose,
you know, what I do and the running side of things and
social media and that's how it all grew.
So, yeah, you know, the Hard thing is been an interesting
story because it's it's something I wasn't comfortable
talking about at first, but as it's happened and it's evolved,
I've seen it. It's a really good thing to
share because so many people do have issues or they're worried
about those things. So it creates an awareness
around it as well. You know, go and get it checked
if there's an issue. Take better care of yourself.
There's a whole lot of messages I think that you can unpack from
that, that that's come from the hard issue.
But yeah, it's, it's certainly something that I've embraced on
social media and, and it's helped me in some ways.
I thought it would cause issues, but it's, it's done the
opposite. It's actually created like a new
opportunities to do things and, and, and get the message out
there about heart health and health in general.
So social media gets a lot of bad press because it is evil,
it's horrible and all, but if you use it correctly, it has got
a good side to it. 100% yeah. I think that's the key.
You hit the nail on the head. It's it's a, it's like a tool.
It's something you, if you can pick it up and put it down and
use it for good, it's great. You can also use it for bad.
OK. You just get to decide which
which one of those you're you know you're going to use it for.
Yeah, and they get many messages from people that have had
similar heart health issues or like even thanking you for
raising awareness and something that they didn't know about and
went and got checked. Yeah, definitely lots, all the
time, every week, messages from people with with all sorts of
issues. Although I must say, all the
people that that ask and, and ask what, what that they asked
me, what should I do? I would say please go speak to
your cardiologist. I'm not a doctor.
I'm not an expert in heart health.
Just because I don't take a certain medication, I've talked
to someone about that and we've discussed it, you know, with my
doctor, cardiologist and various medical advisors, doesn't mean
that you shouldn't take yours or do what you're meant to be
doing. So please, you know, seek the
proper advice. There's a lot of medical advice
on social media, and there's a lot of people that will tell you
to not do this and take this instead and do that.
Everyone's different, I think, you know, Yeah, so I do get a
lot of people reach out. But yeah, that would be the one
thing I've learned from it all different.
Seek find your own path, get the best advice possible.
Yeah, and a doctor, if he's worth being a doctor, he's never
going to complain that you've wasted his time and there is
nothing wrong. Yeah, 100% better to find out
that there's nothing wrong. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.
So moving on from that bitty somber topic there, running
achievements or athletic achievements or life
achievements? What's your your biggest
achievement? Wow, that's a big one.
Wow. I mean, we've got full grown up
kids. They're also functioning in the
life. I think that's that's pretty
good. Well, I think that that that
might be due to, you know, not just to obviously to me, but to
to their their mother as well. So, and then running
achievements, well, I think I still don't know, everyone is
just great in its own way. I mean, you know, I've had a few
podiums in my time, but you know that sometimes the best races
are the ones where you feel that you gave it everything and it
doesn't matter where the placing was.
But you know that on the day you gave it everything.
You have other times I've placed quite well in the event, but I
know that I I could have tried harder and pushed harder and
I've, you know, maybe not cruised in and just, you know,
knowing that I was in pretty good shape and that the
competition maybe didn't have such good days.
So yeah, that's a hard one. I mean, finishing UTMB Mont
Blanc was was a biggie. That's the only 100 Mila that I
just cannot figure out the formula too.
I I've run so much faster 100 miles.
So that that's an interesting one.
That's why I keep going back because I need to crack that
code. It's my I don't know.
It's my what's the one? It's that one race that's that's
elusive anyway, life achievements getting to 55 and
I'm still here after numerous health issues finding a, a, a
wife Fran, my what current wife Fran who just gets me being with
a partner. I don't think that's an
achievement. That's just like a a bonus to
everything makes everything so much easier and better in my
life. Couldn't do what I do without
her. She was the one come visit me in
hospital every day when I was having the heart surgery, when I
was in there, remember 4 * / 2 months for because they had a
couple of problems with a couple of the surgeries.
And she would just become an, you know, give up her own life
for that time until I was better and ready to come back here.
Backs me up 100% supports me. Big kudos to her.
Yeah. Well, yeah, I think that's,
that's, that's really all I can think about.
I don't like what achievements is and you know what business I
had or What Car I drove or how many houses I had when I was in
doing that kind of thing. Because they're really not
important to me anymore. Just waking up each day, being
happy. That's pretty much it.
And do you run for performance, adventure or something deeper?
What is your? Why?
My why? Big, big one.
I'm alive. Simply when I wake up each day.
I'm alive. When you've had your heart stop
a few times, you really appreciate everything.
Everything. I've got coffee that a machine
makes. Wow, it's amazing.
It's incredible. The smell of it each morning.
Like, you know, you start to appreciate everything that's
simple in your life and the good things.
Yeah, there's a lot of noise and there's always going to be
issues and problems to solve and things to fix, but none of it
really matters. Biggest thing for me is my why
is I'm alive and I get to enjoy this life.
That's it. And next question, It could be a
really deep, a long answer. You waffle on all you want, or
it might just be one word. What do you think about when
you're running? Yes, it's not so deep.
Generally I just switch off and I'm quite meditative.
I'm just, that's why I think I like, try running.
When I was on the road, I was listening to music and podcasts
and that's great, you know, nothing wrong with that.
But obviously safety first, not running across stoplights and
things, you know, being aware of what's around you.
But when I'm on the trails, I just love nature.
I love the lack of noise. And I don't just mean physical,
but mental as well. I don't know, I kind of find
immersed myself in the experience and just switch off.
Sometimes I'm running with Fran and she says you're quite quiet.
What are you thinking about? Saying nothing like maybe that's
a guy thing. You know, we do get a called out
sometimes if we really are actually not thinking of
anything in particular. So yeah, other times I solve
things that have been, maybe I have to solve some problem or
issue that that's kind of been on my mind.
And with everything else going on when I'm in front of a
computer and working and on social media, when I'm out on
the trails, kind of can put everything into perspective and
then make a plan of action. Kind of not in the sense that
I'm thinking about it, but it just starts to fall into its
right place. So maybe it's a seems like a big
problem, but it shrinks back down to what it actually is.
And then it's like, OK, take the next steps to do it.
But a lot of the time it's just about switching off and just
being in the moment, being in nature.
There's a mountain behind us about two 2702 thousand, 800
meters high. That is a beautiful climb, quite
technical at the top. You've got to do a little bit of
climbing. And you know, I just go up to
the top of that and I can see the border of Argentina over
there in the Andes Mountains and and the biggest mountain in
South America on the distance. It's about 6 1/2 thousand
meters, I think high and I just think.
Yeah. Pretty happy, just sit there
quietly for 5 minutes looking at that and really just let it wash
over me. I'm a pretty simple guy, I don't
need a lot of distraction. And do you have any projects or
events or anything, any races coming up that you want people
to know about? Yes.
So we'll be doing some work with UTMB again this year and some of
their races. So and yeah, one of those will
be UTMB Mont Blanc. Again, we're like I mentioned
earlier in the podcast, we're going to hopefully we're working
on some stuff in China. We're going to go and race over
there. So that should be exciting.
And also not just in Chile for the sunny weather and because my
wife lives here. I'm working on a project here
with one of our sponsors that we're still putting together.
I can't say too much about it right now.
However, it's a multi day endurance project and it's going
to be a lot of fun. And do you have any races that
are left on the bucket list that you would still like to do?
Yeah, I'm. I'm going to run out of life
before I get to do everything. I'd love to come over, actually.
This is another thing I might scout out this year.
I'd love to come over to, to the UK and look at some of the, the
races, Like, I mean, there's the big ones, the spine race, the
Dragons back through Wales, these these kind of things.
I, I, I see. And I think, yeah, they're quite
cool. Like running.
Look at that, look at that. You know, I like those kinds of
challenges, those multi day or or challenging condition kind of
events where you have to push yourself.
So yeah, there's I haven't raced enough in in the UK to be fair
because I'm usually tied up in Europe.
So I'd love to come over there and do that.
Obviously, China is 1 on my bucket list as well.
And Asia, I think there's some incredible races there and I
know it's exploding over there and we haven't even seen the tip
of the iceberg and that yet. And yeah, there's just so many.
There's some that are quite out of the way in places like
Georgia and and sort of countries that aren't on the
ultra running map as such. But there's just some incredible
places that I've heard from other people and seen them run
that I'd like to explore further.
But like I said, I think I'm just going to run out of life.
So I'll do my best to get around them all.
But I think yeah, definitely attract to the UK is on the
cards. Come and check out what you guys
are doing over there. I see some amazing stuff and
certainly up north there, man, you've got some some beautiful
countryside up that way. Just incredible.
And while Ian was answering that question and was pointing at my
T-shirt so that the Tunnel Ultra so.
There's not much scenery in that, Ian.
You're running through a tunnel for 200 miles backwards and
forwards. That, that is, that sounds
pretty cool actually, right? I think the mental challenge of
that is just incredible. Yeah.
We'll, we'll talk about it off here.
Next question, another possibly deep and meaningful one.
Do you have anybody that you would like to go for a run with?
Either alive, not fictional, real.
Up to you. You know, I got to be honest,
once again, I love running with my wife like, and I'm not just
saying that because she she'll listen to this.
We actually get on so well. Like this is how we started our
relationship when we were just friends and, and then obviously
it grew into something else, but we just both love to be outdoors
and run and, and we can spend hours a day out on the
mountains. We've run 100K ultra together in
the, in the South of Chile, in the, in Patagonia, around the
volcano, active volcano. You know, we just click and we
can just like, we just enjoy each other's company so much
that, I mean, I'm just drawn back to, to that again and
again. We, we just really love spending
time together out in these wild places.
You know, there's all the fast people and people.
I mean, I, I've been in races with Killian, but The thing is,
you know, I, I can't keep up with the guy.
It's just impossible. So yeah, I mean, yeah, I'd say
my wife, she'd be #1 on the list.
And I follow Fran on Instagram as well and she looks so
awesome. She is freaking awesome.
I, I got to say, I mean, I'm biased obviously, but yeah, we
just have a really good relationship because we're just
both so passionate about running.
When she's going to be 60 this year and she's still running
races, you know, she's still, she just loves it, absolutely
loves it, loves what she does. She loves to be in the outdoors.
She loves running. So I know I think that rubs off
on me while I'm out there with her.
So yeah, it's kind of like feeds the feeds the fire a bit.
And she also looks incredible. She doesn't look even though she
is even near 60. I don't know how she does it.
I'm sure it's genetic. She says it's it's exercise and
diet, but I'm sure it's genetics because I don't know how she
does it. She she looks way younger than
me. Like I don't know how she does
it. I'm sorry, Ian, but I'm agreeing
with you. Yeah, it's true.
She does. Everyone thinks she's she we
were at a function actually the other week or she was, I should
say, and that she just the new president that just got voted in
here in Chile. He said he thought she was 40.
He said, are you, you know, they were talking about something and
and and she said I am celebrating my his birthday.
He said, yeah, I'm going to be, I don't know, 60 something this
year. She said, yeah, I'm going to be
60. He said, no, I honestly don't
believe it. You're like, you look like
you're in your 40s. And that's what most people say
when they meet her. She actually does look like her
Instagram, like her social media.
They're not, no, they're not filters.
I don't know how she does it anyway.
Maybe she's. I said to her just go and like
sign a contract with like one of the face screen people in Paris.
Just just say you use it. Just lie and say I said because
people will believe it and you'll make a fortune.
I said, OK, you know, yeah, it's not the truth, but man, you,
you'll be able to sell it because look at you anyway.
Yeah. See so so she says that you're
so lucky and whatever you can eat whatever you like and you
still look the way you are. She is so lucky because because
she has the beautiful skin, as you say, and she looks
incredible as well. I don't know how she does it.
Yeah, but I mean, yeah, like I said, I am incredibly lucky
she's with me. I don't know why, but she is.
So yeah, I must be. I must be must have a lot of
luck on my side. And unless Mike has anything
else that he wants to ask, the final question we have is it's
quite philosophical, less it could be.
If someone that is listening to this episode is stuck in life
right now and running or in their own head, what is the
first step that you would tell them to take?
You know, I know it sounds cliche, but where you are now is
not where you're going to be. Never give up like it's, it's
true. I every time I've been in a
hospital bed, I've just come out of surgery.
I've just had a broken bone. I, I was in, I, I caught COVID
in 2020 and was in isolation ward and had my lungs 70 cent
block with COVID pneumonia, one of the nice early versions.
And you know, all these things. I just thought, what can I do
today to to make a difference? What can I do that's going to
move me forward in some way, whether that's mental or
physical or spiritual or whatever you know works for you.
So just don't give up. Where you are now is not where
you're going to be in the future.
Things do change. I'm not going to say it's all
going to work out and it's going to be better, but while you're
alive, there's always a chance that things can change.
So yeah, just don't give up. Like seriously, I'm living proof
that if you just keep taking the next step, you can get to the
place where you want to be. Doesn't mean it's going to be
easy, doesn't mean you're not going to have setbacks, but man,
just keep going. Don't give up.
And that brings us to the the end of our questions.
It's just from me, from a Chile, not Chile, Scotland to say thank
you Ian for coming on the show. Thank you Nikki for being Nikki
and it's goodbye for me. Thanks for coming.
On Ian. Thanks, Mike.
Thanks, Nikki. It's been a lot of fun and I'd
love to hear more about your story sometimes.