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Hello and welcome to another 
episode of Run Till You're Done,

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this week's guest. 
It's an incredible 1 and I'm 

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really excited to have them on. 
She's a runner, hence why she's 

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coming on to have a chat with 
us. 

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She's an author of a book that I
honestly couldn't put down. 

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I'm trying to get more into 
reading and this one took me 

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like a day and a bit to read 
that was that addictive. 

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She's the host of the podcast 
Resilience Rising, a mountain 

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leader, a yoga teacher and a 
keynote speaker make whether she

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getting the time to speak to us 
tonight. 

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We are very privileged to 
introduce Jen Scotney. 

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Oh, thank you, Nikki. 
So Jen, how did your running 

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come into your leaf and 
actually. 

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Well, I think I was very lucky 
in that I grew up in the Pete 

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district and I had two parents 
who were into running. 

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So I guess as a child running 
was part of my life because I 

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used to see my dad doing foul 
races and Rd. marathons. 

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My mum and my mum and I think my
sister at the time who's older 

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than me, did like the Great 
North Run. 

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And so it was thing like I, you 
know, there'd be a note on the 

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kitchen table that one of my 
parents that have gone for a run

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and I used to do cross country 
and we used to run in some 

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events as when they had family 
races. 

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But I would say that I then got 
out of sport and running when I 

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left university and went to work
as a lawyer in London. 

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So I guess that running then 
came back into my life a bit 

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later, which was in my 30s when 
I was moved back to the Peat 

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district and I wanted to just 
get away from my desk and 

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started walking and then started
jogging little bits and just 

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felt great. 
And it built up from there. 

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So yes, I kind of left it for a 
quite a while when I was in my 

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20s, but came back to it. 
And when you did come back, when

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what, what was the first race 
that you went back to? 

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So I joined Dark Peak Fell 
Runners. 

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So I was living in the Peak 
District at the time and this, 

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it was a group that I knew about
because my dad used to run with 

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them or run with people that 
were in Dark Peak. 

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And I remember going to Leggett 
Round Lathkill, which is, I 

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mean, it's classed as a fell 
race. 

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It's probably more of a trail 
race, but it's probably about 7 

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miles I think. 
Really nice part of the Peak 

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District. 
And I was so nervous and almost 

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kind of registered and then 
drove home because I was just 

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worried and I, you know, looking
back it seems comical that I was

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so like nervous about one race. 
So that's really good to kind of

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show how far I've come on that 
that would just wouldn't bother 

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me anymore. 
But yeah, it was a local fire 

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race. 
It was like 5 lbs to enter. 

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And I remember at the end, 
because I was wearing a Dark 

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Pete vest, I had people from the
club coming and chatting to me 

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and people that I'm still in 
contact with now. 

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So definitely join the local 
club. 

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If you even if it's hard and 
you're nervous about that, I'd 

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say do it because the benefits 
just last for you could be for 

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your whole life. 
And I I I did a marathon this 

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morning and 10 LB entry. 
I can't recommend it enough. 

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Previous guest Chris Cowley, Fat
versus marathon. 

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And I agree, these are local, 
small key events are what makes 

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the running community. 
Yeah, and no egos and you know, 

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everybody turning up in whatever
kit they want. 

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And, and I still, I perhaps 
didn't do loads. 

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Well, I definitely didn't do 
loads of foul racing when I was 

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in the Peak District. 
But I would do like my local 

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foul race. 
And it used to raise money for 

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like a sports ground and we had 
a little pavilion. 

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And it's just really great to 
see those community kind of 

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buildings and and life be 
enriched by running. 

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And sort of the the opposite end
of the spectrum from these low 

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key events the the Pennine way, 
you've got a bit of a fondness 

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for that. 
I have. 

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What, What is the fondness? 
Why? 

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Why are you so attracted to it? 
And what, what, what is it that 

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you've been doing on there? 
I know that you went for the 

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fastest known time at one point.
Yeah, yeah. 

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So Nikki mentioned my book 
Running Through the Dark and 

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that. 
Really to me is a bit of a love 

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letter to the Pennine Way. 
And going back to my childhood, 

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like I said, I grew up in the 
Pete District and was pretty 

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active as a child and lucky to 
have parents that would Take Me 

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Out. 
So I guess my first first kind 

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of getting on to the Pennine Way
would have been as a child 

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getting taken to Kinder and 
Edale and places like that. 

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But what also attracted me was 
that my mum and dad had walked 

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the Pennine Way. 
They met at Manchester 

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University and there's some 
great photos of them before 

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they're Pennine Way. 
Like they were out in these kind

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of classic 1960s cars and in 
anoraks and jeans and going out 

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onto the Pennine Way. 
They decided to walk it. 

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So this was in the 1970s and 
I've got my dad's diary of it. 

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We've got photo albums of them 
on it, like my mum going up 

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kinder and flares. 
So I I used to love those 

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stories of them, their adventure
on it. 

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And I think that's the massive 
thing that drew me to it. 

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And I wasn't running, like I 
said, in my kind of 20s, I came 

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back to it in my 30s. 
And one of the things that drew 

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me back to running was it, it 
was a way that I was coping with

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the grief of my dad died and 
then a few months after my 

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brother died. 
So it became even more poignant,

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I think just that connection 
with my dad. 

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And I was living near the start 
of it then so often, you know, I

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didn't have to travel far. 
And even actually, when I was as

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walking rather than running and 
living in Manchester, I'd come 

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out for walks on the Pennine 
Way. 

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And then when I started running,
I'd kind of be drawn back to it.

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And I just love, I love the 
variety of the Penang Way. 

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It takes you from the peat 
district all the way up to 

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Scotland, which I mean, I live 
in Scotland now, but it seems 

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like really adventurous that you
could get all the way up, up the

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country on foot on this path. 
And I love I just the variety. 

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Like one minute you've got the 
peat bogs and the wide Moors of 

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the peat district and then 
you've got the limestone 

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pavements in the Yorkshire 
Dales. 

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You've got hike up Nick, you've 
got just Hadrian's Wall, like 

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going past Roman camps and walls
just, and then the Cheviots, I 

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just find them like really 
empty. 

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And I, I love the space up 
there. 

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So it's, it's got everything. 
That's one of the reasons I 

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liked it. 
And I'd done some of the races 

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on it. 
I've done like the spying 

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challenger three times and but I
really just wanted to go and and

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run it away from a race and and 
that was what the the book was 

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kind of about me trying to do 
that. 

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And the you you said that you 
had your dad's diary with photos

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in it. 
Have you been and react re 

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enacted any of the photos? 
I so I, I remember when I was 

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reckoning it and I was at the 
end and there's a photo of like 

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my mum and dad with this sign, 
but they've moved it and I could

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only really work out where they 
were because of some roof that 

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was sort of similar. 
No, I haven't got flares on and 

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I haven't got like, you know, 
there's sort of bright probably 

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show my age here. 
But when we were kids, we had 

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like these bright orange, 
ridiculously huge anoraks, 

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Cagools, like the, the things 
being breathable have not been, 

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was not a thing back then. 
And they're the sort of things 

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that my mum and dad wore when 
they were doing it. 

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But yeah, I definitely found 
those photo spots just not 

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recreated it. 
And, and often I'm on the pen, 

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I'm on my own. 
So it would have been quite a 

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challenge to be the photographer
and an actor. 

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I I think that you and Marcus 
will be going up there with a 

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tripod the next time you're 
there. 

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It's down there now, now that 
we're in solid. 

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And you mentioned your book. 
I don't know if we've actually 

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mentioned the title of the book 
so far. 

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It's called Running Through the 
Dark. 

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And as mentioned in the 
introduction, I thoroughly 

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recommend, when you were writing
it, what part of the story for 

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you personally felt the most 
important for you to put into 

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words? 
Well, the book changed. 

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So initially I turned to the the
actual running of the Pennine 

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Way because I I ran the coast to
coast and I did that as a race, 

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Northern Traverse and I kind of 
had a really good time. 

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But there were definitely times 
in the race where I was sort of 

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tired, hungry, and I was just 
because it you weren't crude. 

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So it was sort of 40 miles to 
the next checkpoint and you drop

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bag and the troops that I'd got 
there. 

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So my mind had been wondering, 
oh, I wonder how fast I could do

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this if I had a crew. 
And then when you just wreck it 

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and run the coast to coast, kind
of when I finished, the last 

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thing that I really wanted to do
was, oh, let's go back and run 

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it again. 
So I kind of knew that I wanted 

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to go to the Penang way. 
It was also just that little bit

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longer. 
So it it was just that extra 

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challenge and something 
different. 

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So I started to think about 
other women that had run it. 

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I wasn't like, oh, I'm going to 
go and get a record. 

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I just kind of curiosity. 
I just wondered what what the 

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women's record was. 
And at the time I think Carol 

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Morgan had the spine race 
record. 

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So the spine is a race that runs
along the Pennine Way, but it 

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doesn't quite go the same way 
that my parents went and it 

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misses out the summit of the 
Chevy and I don't really want to

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do it that way. 
So I started just looking. 

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I was kind of, I knew the men 
that had run it. 

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Some of them were in my running 
club and I knew that they'd been

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crewed by women or paced for 
certain ones. 

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And I just, I just got curious 
about women running the Pennine 

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Way and I couldn't really find 
out. 

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I couldn't find that there were 
any that had done it outside of 

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the race. 
And this was going back a few 

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years. 
So you don't, I know there are 

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women that have done it since I 
know I don't need to just leave 

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it. 
And I but in talking to the, the

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men that had done it. 
So I spoke to to some of the old

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record holders and they, they 
had some really good stories. 

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And I just felt like we were 
going to lose those soon, 

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particularly some of the earlier
men there was, you know, they 

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weren't particularly well, some 
of them or some had already 

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died. 
So I wanted to collect those 

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stories. 
And that's initially what I was 

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going to write about. 
I was going to write a 

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collection of stories about 
other people that had run the 

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Pennine Way. 
And then perhaps the last 

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chapter, I was going to pop up 
and do my story. 

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And, you know, there'd be some 
drama in that. 

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I lost a shoe or my shoelace 
broke or something. 

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It's something, you know, that 
that was the sort of drama I was

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thinking about. 
And then I spoke to Vertebra. 

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I was told them this idea when I
was doing something else with 

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them. 
And as a publisher, they were 

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like interested and gave me a 
book deal to do that. 

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But then what happened was I 
became quite I'll things that 

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had been bubbling away in the 
background suddenly, but came to

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the forefront. 
And there were many months and 

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months where I wasn't even 
thinking about the book the 

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pillow might just just couldn't.
I was just surviving. 

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I was diagnosed with chronic 
fatigue syndrome, which is a bit

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of a sort of non diagnosis for 
those that have got it in that 

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it's like, well, we don't know 
what else it is, so we'll give 

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you this diagnosis and there's 
no treatment and just go away 

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really. 
And like one of the doctors said

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to me, just you stay positive, 
you might get better. 

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And so I was just some for kind 
of years then was just 

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surviving. 
And what I started doing was 

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assuming that the book would 
never happen because I'd never 

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run the pen. 
I'm waiting at the times where I

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just thought I'm never going to 
be able to leave this bed again 

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and have a life. 
And when I did feel well enough,

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I wrote. 
And it was at the time, I never 

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thought that that would be 
published or that anybody would 

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see that. 
I just thought, I don't really 

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have another way of discussing 
or processing or telling anybody

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about how I'm feeling. 
It was very much a diary of just

224
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,040
getting my thoughts out, a 
stream of consciousness at some 

225
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,120
points. 
And I think going back to you, 

226
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,600
the question about kind of the 
parts that needed to be written,

227
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,360
I honestly don't think I would 
have remembered how bad it was 

228
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,440
if I hadn't had those records of
how bad it was. 

229
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,560
And I also at the time, this is 
like before COVID. 

230
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,720
So there's been a huge amount of
research post long COVID. 

231
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,240
Well, I mean, I know we're still
with long COVID, but I mean, 

232
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,080
post COVID, when people were had
long COVID, suddenly a lot of 

233
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,200
research, but back then there 
just wasn't. 

234
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,400
And I felt it was really 
important to to sort of show 

235
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,000
people what it's like for people
with ME or chronic fatigue 

236
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,680
syndrome in that just how your 
world shrinks. 

237
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,320
So I think, yeah, that's 
probably the part that's really 

238
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,240
important to me. 
And it I did, I was quite 

239
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,440
surprised when the publishers 
wanted to go ahead with the book

240
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,280
because I just thought, well, 
it's not that classic story of 

241
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,520
I'm going to do something and 
look at me how great I've done 

242
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,680
it because it isn't that sort of
story. 

243
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,480
And also, I just thought who's 
interested in, in kind of me 

244
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:25,440
wallowing around, crying a lot. 
But I'm glad that it, yeah, I am

245
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,160
really glad that it's, it's gone
out. 

246
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,960
And I when I, when they said it 
was going to get published and, 

247
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,560
and we were going through that, 
I just thought, well, if it 

248
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,360
helps one person, then it will 
be worth it. 

249
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,160
But actually I've had hundreds 
of messages from people. 

250
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,880
So I'm glad I went ahead with 
it. 

251
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:47,560
And do you think you mentioned 
about COVID sort of progressing 

252
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,280
the research into MA and chronic
fatigue. 

253
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,160
Do you think that would have 
happened anyway? 

254
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,400
Do you think when when you first
have symptoms? 

255
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,280
Has there been a lot of 
progression out with this COVID 

256
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,280
research into? 
It no, no, that was it. 

257
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:10,400
There was just nothing and it 
was very much a seen as a 

258
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,480
psychological problem, like 
there was just nothing. 

259
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,680
And I'd go to the doctors. 
For me it was symptoms came on 

260
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,480
quite gradually. 
So I'd start just getting more 

261
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,720
tired and I'd go to the doctors 
and they'd just be like, well, 

262
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,320
your tests are normal. 
That's great. 

263
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,480
Like there's nothing wrong with 
you and you just think my body 

264
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,360
is shutting down. 
There's clearly something wrong 

265
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:37,560
with me and, and having doctors 
that had that sort of attitude 

266
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,680
to me, just, I mean, there were 
times when I'm like, is this all

267
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,080
in my head? 
Am I going mad? 

268
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,160
Like what is, is there anything 
wrong? 

269
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,320
And the only time that I was 
offered something was I was 

270
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,520
offered some antidepressants and
they were just kept telling me 

271
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,520
you're depressed. 
And I thought I was, I wasn't 

272
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,440
depressed. 
It's at the start of this 

273
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,680
illness. 
It's just the fact that I'm now 

274
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,880
like months I'm having to look 
at giving up work and I can't 

275
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,880
just have the life that I 
wanted. 

276
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,280
So no, I don't think it would 
have happened. 

277
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,160
I don't think we'd be in any 
better place. 

278
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,560
And it's not even that there's 
the treatment there now. 

279
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:22,359
But I do hope that people that 
have those symptoms are believed

280
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,119
a bit more and perhaps treated a
little bit more kinder by the 

281
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,680
medical profession. 
I mean, one of the things when I

282
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,880
was like reading back through 
the book, so I'd written it over

283
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,160
years and years. 
So it's quite a thing to have to

284
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,960
read it all in one go suddenly 
when it's it's coming out. 

285
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,720
And I just, I was like, why 
wasn't I like knocking on the 

286
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,520
door of the surgery every day, 
like trying to get something, 

287
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,840
some help. 
I just think, well, when I was 

288
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,560
back there, I was just so used 
to not being believed by the 

289
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,560
doctors of them just taking me 
away. 

290
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,000
At one point they said that I 
had to stop ringing because I 

291
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,600
was taking up too much of their 
time. 

292
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:06,640
And when I did find something 
that helped me and told them 

293
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,000
about it, they just said, oh, 
it's just a placebo effect. 

294
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,800
And it's just, so it was, yeah, 
it was really hard to deal with.

295
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,360
And I think, you know, I'm, I'm 
privileged in that I'm a sis 

296
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,920
white female who's been, you 
know, had education and I still 

297
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,520
found it impossible to advocate 
for myself. 

298
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,840
So I can just imagine without 
those privileges how much worse 

299
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,560
it could be. 
Do you think? 

300
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,240
Did there come a point, Jen, 
where there was anyone in the 

301
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,800
medical profession that did 
eventually believe you and start

302
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,880
to take you seriously? 
Because I would imagine that 

303
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,480
there could be listeners of this
episode right now possibly going

304
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,320
through something similar and 
thinking that I'm going off my 

305
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,560
head here and no one believes 
me. 

306
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,680
Have you got any advice that way
for other people that have this?

307
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,120
Yeah, I really hope that there 
is that there has been an 

308
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,480
attitude change, but I'm I 
didn't find anybody. 

309
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,680
And in the end what I did was 
just do my own research. 

310
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,280
And again, that's really hard 
when you're ill, but I I had 

311
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,200
pretty bad insomnia. 
So we like 3:00 AM I'm just 

312
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,240
trying to Google symptoms 
medical. 

313
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,360
I was reading medical papers. 
I was trying to connect these 

314
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:29,560
dots of, of things. 
I was on forums and I found that

315
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,960
help like meeting, well, no, I 
wasn't meeting them face to 

316
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,080
face, but coming across people 
that were in similar situations,

317
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,760
it, it sometimes was really 
helpful in that that point of 

318
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,280
like, am I going mad? 
Like is it linked that every 

319
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,800
time I try and stand up, I sort 
of pass out. 

320
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,400
Is it linked that I'm hyper 
mobile? 

321
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,000
All these things that kept 
coming up. 

322
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,840
But then I also found that it 
wasn't always helpful. 

323
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,600
Like sometimes I'd be, you'd be 
reading people account and they 

324
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,640
had been sick for sort of 20 
plus years. 

325
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:08,720
And it didn't always make me 
hopeful that I could see, you 

326
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,640
know, a way that I'd get better.
And I, I swung between that 

327
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,040
quite a lot of would I have a 
happier life if I just accepted 

328
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,120
this was my life that I can't 
run, I can't get outside, I just

329
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,280
have to spend most of my life in
bed? 

330
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,960
Or would I be happier if I kept 
fighting and trying to find a 

331
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,080
way? 
And have hope that I could get 

332
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,680
better. 
And I think I just sometimes it 

333
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,400
was one, sometimes it was the 
other. 

334
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,160
So I definitely say it's not 
helpful when people go, you'll 

335
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,880
get better. 
You'll find something 

336
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,320
necessarily like, I do want to 
hold that hope for people, for 

337
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,120
everybody. 
And I want people to see that I 

338
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:52,520
did get better. 
And I hope that everybody else 

339
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,760
can find their way of getting 
better. 

340
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,360
But also, I know that that sort 
of toxic positivity isn't always

341
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,440
helpful. 
Do you think like before you 

342
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,760
were diagnosed, before you even 
had any symptoms, you were a 

343
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,560
vulner so you were fitter than 
the general public? 

344
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,400
Did you think that hindered your
diagnosis? 

345
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:25,160
No, I mean, I remember the first
thing that brought on my 

346
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:30,000
symptoms were I was, I donated 
blood, which I used to do. 

347
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,920
And the first time like 3, I 
think it's every three months 

348
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,160
and three months before I, I'd 
not be able to because they 

349
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,000
said, Oh, you've got low iron. 
And I kind of thought, oh, I've 

350
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,920
been climbing and I'd probably 
not eaten great. 

351
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,000
And maybe it's just a one off. 
And then the next time I could 

352
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,040
donate, but I felt really dizzy 
like for a few days after. 

353
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,920
And because I always used to do 
the same run in the morning up 

354
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,600
Kerber gap on a long Kerber 
edge. 

355
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,400
And I just, it just felt 
different. 

356
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,440
And I went to the doctor and 
said, I don't, I think I'm 

357
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:02,880
anemic. 
And they just said you don't 

358
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,720
look anemic and you're like, so 
we had the test and I was 

359
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,000
severely anemic. 
But what happened with me and 

360
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,240
everybody's different. 
So it's not always that helpful 

361
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,960
to kind of get into what, what 
made me better. 

362
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:20,400
But yeah, I was given 9 tablets 
and my eye levels improved, but 

363
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,760
my symptoms didn't really. 
And so over the rest of the year

364
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,280
until August, I was just getting
worse and worse and worse in 

365
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,200
terms of fatigue. 
And then later on, a few years 

366
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,560
later, I had other things like 
joint pain and things. 

367
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:39,880
I think yeah, maybe, maybe it 
was what I wanted. 

368
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,120
I knew I wasn't right running, 
but then you feel bad 

369
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:46,560
complaining that I can get up 
and go out for a run. 

370
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,320
It's just not. 
It's just a bit harder than it 

371
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,800
should be, like, so maybe I 
wonder if it was actually kind 

372
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,520
of me that put that on myself in
that. 

373
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,640
But I can still do a lot, so 
should I be complaining? 

374
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,480
There's always people worse. 
But yeah, that was the way that 

375
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,840
it started for me and that I was
able to notice that something 

376
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,960
wasn't right. 
Yeah, I totally sympathize with 

377
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,840
you. 
I at a doctor's appointment, our

378
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:18,200
nearest GP is 7 miles away and 
I, I didn't have transport, so I

379
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:19,640
said I was willing to walk 
there. 

380
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,600
And the response was if you're 
willing to walk there, then 

381
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,800
there's nothing wrong with you. 
Turns out I needed heart 

382
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,320
surgery. 
But that's so it's. 

383
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:38,920
Yeah, I sympathize. 
Right back to your book, when 

384
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,520
you were writing it, is there 
anything that surprised you that

385
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,520
things that might have not been 
as you thought that they were, 

386
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,800
and then when you wrote it down,
it sort of changed the way you 

387
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,400
thought about it? 
I think I'm surprised I wrote a 

388
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:05,880
book. 
I never really, I mean, I've 

389
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,120
always liked reading and writing
and I have picture books that 

390
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:10,880
kind of writing and want to get 
out. 

391
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,240
But it was always, yeah, I think
that surprised me probably the 

392
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,080
most. 
And like when I got it back from

393
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,320
the editor that with the 
publisher and they just kind of 

394
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,440
corrected the typos and I was 
like texting the owner of the 

395
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,040
publishers going, they're not 
editing it, why aren't they 

396
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,800
taking things out? 
Why am I? 

397
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,360
Why I was thinking I would have 
to write the whole thing. 

398
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,640
So I think that surprised me. 
I mean, I've already said like I

399
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,600
never set out to to write about 
myself in this way. 

400
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,080
I'm quite a private person. 
So it's quite scary suddenly 

401
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,400
thinking this was going to go 
out. 

402
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,360
And I mean, there's obviously I 
have still kind of can sense a 

403
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,240
bit of what goes in. 
So it's while everything's in 

404
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,560
their truthful, it's like 
there's obviously I tried to put

405
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,440
what was relevant in rather than
everything in my life. 

406
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:06,200
And I think, yeah, I just wasn't
expecting to put that in. 

407
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,560
Like I think if I'd known that 
this was going to get published,

408
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,160
I would have been such. 
I would be more critical and 

409
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,080
more editing myself and worrying
about it. 

410
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,240
Whereas it was just like I felt 
like I needed to get this out of

411
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,720
me. 
And that's how how it came 

412
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,720
about. 
Yeah. 

413
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,760
So that's probably more the 
general, general side of it. 

414
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:35,760
You said there that you're a 
private person, I'm guessing 

415
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,600
introverted. 
I am as well. 

416
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,800
Nikki will claim that she is, 
but she's not. 

417
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,760
She'll go and talk to anybody. 
Do you think that this 

418
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,560
publishing of the book has 
changed that? 

419
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,160
Are you more open with people 
because they're able to read 

420
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:58,200
what's happened to you? 
I think yeah, it I am very 

421
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,320
introverted, just go and lie 
down. 

422
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:09,480
But I I think at the time before
it came out, if you'd have asked

423
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,440
me, well, what you worried about
and I would be worried about 

424
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,120
people knowing things, how maybe
how people might react or you 

425
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:21,640
know, I didn't even tell my 
family I was writing this book 

426
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,080
and and discuss it with them at 
all. 

427
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:30,960
So now it's come out and I've 
had some lovely comments and 

428
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,120
messages. 
I also, I'm quite surprised that

429
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,120
I just don't care about reviews.
Like I would probably have put 

430
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,800
that as though something I'm 
worried about and I just haven't

431
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,440
looked. 
I mean, I've seen some of them 

432
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,840
and it's fine. 
Even me, I find it quite funny 

433
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,720
when actually the worst one that
I saw on Amazon was somebody 

434
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:56,840
that I knew. 
Thanks for that. 

435
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:03,240
And I am and I think that's 
probably what's changed me. 

436
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,000
It's not that I'm less 
introverted, but it's that you 

437
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,760
face your fears and they don't 
happen. 

438
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:15,360
And I think that is something 
about resilience and just make 

439
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:19,480
yourself a bit stronger and 
being a bit more brave the next 

440
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,760
time. 
And so I would say that that's 

441
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,320
really helped and I would 
encourage people if I sort of 

442
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,960
meet quite a lot of people that 
have books in them and want to 

443
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,160
do things and just go for it 
and. 

444
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,920
Something that I found like 
doing the podcast, you're a 

445
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,200
podcast host yourself doing 
races. 

446
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:48,280
You've done many of the races, a
lot of things that I would in 

447
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,760
the past find difficult. 
You go, well, I, I did UT MB 

448
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,920
I've why can't I do this? 
Why, why can't I stand up in a 

449
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,760
room for 10 people when I can go
and run 106 miles around the 

450
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,720
Alps? 
Is that resilience? 

451
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,760
Yeah, I mean. 
So this is supposed to be the 

452
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,720
last question that you haven't 
seen yet, but I. 

453
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,320
Didn't read the ones that I'm 
the most I've seen. 

454
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:23,280
I yeah, I definitely like 
there's a point when I was told 

455
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,600
I'd never run again and I'm 
like, whatever, it's just 

456
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,640
running around the path. 
It's all pointless. 

457
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,400
You're just running in circles. 
And why does it matter? 

458
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,360
It doesn't matter. 
But I think looking back, like 

459
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,040
running really did change me. 
But it wasn't necessarily the 

460
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,320
100 mile races that changed me. 
It was all the bits and the 

461
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,200
training and the meeting people 
and the getting out of my 

462
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,880
comfort zone and like saying 
before what my first race was 

463
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,400
like I was feeling physically 
sick going to do that seven mile

464
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,000
race. 
And I I did it. 

465
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,960
And again, my worst fears didn't
happen. 

466
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,080
I don't, I can't even remember 
what they were that I'd fall 

467
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,520
over or that, you know, be like 
an hour behind everybody or 

468
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,280
whatever it was I was worried 
about. 

469
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,360
And I think it's just those 
little steps help us be more 

470
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,120
resilient. 
I think running can be really 

471
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,440
good sort of things go wrong, 
things hurt and you get get on 

472
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,800
with it. 
I think that's that's been good.

473
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,960
I find that I get a lot of 
resilience from being 

474
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,240
self-sufficient, being out, 
making those decisions, looking 

475
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,240
after me and I don't have to run
for that. 

476
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,720
Like I I do quite a lot of 
camping and just sort of fast 

477
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,080
packing, I guess you'd call it. 
We're going really light with my

478
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,600
kit, but covering, covering a 
few days. 

479
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:44,000
And yeah, I think when I I just 
wasn't feeling resilient at the 

480
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,200
end of the book, I was sobbing a
lot, feeling really sorry for 

481
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,880
myself that life hadn't worked 
out in this wonderful way that I

482
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,360
planned it and I had these plans
and how, how couldn't those 

483
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,520
happen? 
And I wasn't feeling resilient. 

484
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:04,360
So I thought, I kind of annoyed 
myself and thought I need to, I 

485
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,840
want to be more resilient. 
How do I do that? 

486
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,600
So I thought, I'm just going to 
speak to people that know more 

487
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,440
about resilience than me and the
best way to chat to people that 

488
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,280
you want to, especially if 
you're an introvert like me, is 

489
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,880
get them on a podcast. 
So I had to set up a podcast. 

490
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,640
And again, if you would have 
asked me what I was scared 

491
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,040
about, I was scared about 
listening back and hearing my 

492
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:27,640
voice. 
Well, after the first edit, I 

493
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,240
wasn't bothered about that. 
I was scared of people saying 

494
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,880
no. 
Well, some people didn't have 

495
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,080
time to chat to me or didn't 
haven't want to. 

496
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,640
So that's fine. 
You know, anything that I was 

497
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,800
worried about, none of it 
happened. 

498
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:45,000
And so I started this podcast 
about resilience and I think I, 

499
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,080
I did get, I did let some 
runners come on, but I did have 

500
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,880
people contacting me saying, Oh,
I ran 100 miles and I was really

501
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,840
slow and it was really painful. 
And I want to tell you about 

502
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,200
resilience. 
And I'm like, well, I still find

503
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,640
running quite a privileged 
space. 

504
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,960
And if you've got the time and 
money and want the choice to put

505
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,880
yourself through 100 miles, then
I'm sure you can learn lots from

506
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,400
it. 
But it's not really the podcast 

507
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,080
resilience that I was talking 
about. 

508
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:20,280
I like to speak to people who 
hadn't chosen what had happened 

509
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,520
or what they've been through and
could then reflect on how they 

510
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,960
got over it. 
Because like running those races

511
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:34,200
with some of my really fun 
memories, like, and if it had 

512
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,800
gone wrong, well, like my pride 
might have been a bit damaged, 

513
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,440
but nothing was really. 
There was no consequences 

514
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,720
really. 
It was just a bit of fun. 

515
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,520
And so, yeah, I mean, I don't 
want to take away, like, running

516
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,880
did give me a lot of confidence.
One of the things that I 

517
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,960
remember was when I was doing 
the first Spine Challenger, a 

518
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,400
montane that I was sponsored by 
at the time had given me a place

519
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,200
on it and they said, Oh yeah, 
can you just do some training 

520
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,120
vlogs? 
And I was so shy. 

521
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,400
I mean, I went through a whole 
university degree without 

522
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:09,640
speaking to anybody on my 
course. 

523
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,560
I'm so shy that I was, I took my
GoPro out and I didn't, I was 

524
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,920
doing runs and I didn't dare 
speak to the camera, which I 

525
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,800
mean, now just seems ridiculous.
Like I wouldn't even think about

526
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,000
that. 
And so it's those sorts of 

527
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,720
things that I had to get over. 
And I think running was just a 

528
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,520
good way of doing that at the 
time. 

529
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,840
But it doesn't have to be 
running. 

530
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,480
You can do other things then 
just get you out of your comfort

531
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,800
zone and push you and get you to
do things that you thought you 

532
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,880
couldn't do. 
And then and then that comfort 

533
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,760
zone stretches and stretches a 
little bit. 

534
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,400
So it's kind of a safe, fun way 
of doing that really, isn't it? 

535
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,320
And I have one last question 
about your book, Jim. 

536
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,400
And you said there that you were
quite emotional when you 

537
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,280
finished writing it. 
It holds so much honesty about 

538
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,720
endurance beyond the running. 
What do you hope that your 

539
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,320
readers will carry with them 
once they've read it? 

540
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,360
That's. 
A good question. 

541
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,120
I mean, I think there's part of 
a book where you can't control 

542
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,800
what happens to it when you put 
it out there. 

543
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,120
So I like the way that you faced
it. 

544
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,080
What do you hope? 
Because I've got absolutely no 

545
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,760
control about what people think 
or how they take it. 

546
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:30,280
I've, I think, you know, one of 
the, the things that at that 

547
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:36,040
time of the book was a sort of 
my, my world narrowed and it 

548
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,160
became all about running. 
I think like things weren't 

549
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,480
great in my relationship at 
home. 

550
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,480
My family members that I 
mentioned had just died. 

551
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,160
And my job, I was working as a 
human rights lawyer was really 

552
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,720
stressful and it was quite bleak
in terms of legal aid was always

553
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,080
getting cut and we're always 
having to try and do more. 

554
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,040
And I was dealing with some 
really difficult kind of 

555
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:07,360
children in prison cases. 
And suddenly running became, it 

556
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,159
was great. 
Like it got me new friends, got 

557
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:13,639
me to new places, it gave me 
time outside. 

558
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:16,679
It was really positive. 
But at some point it narrowed 

559
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:18,880
and became like such a big thing
in my life. 

560
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:25,840
And the danger of that is that 
if it's taken away, you what you

561
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,520
left with. 
And that's really what the 

562
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,600
book's about. 
They're really shaky foundation.

563
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:36,120
So I think I'd like people to 
think about that kind of how 

564
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,239
seriously they're taking their 
running and if the what else is 

565
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:46,480
in your life, because my story 
would have been so much easier, 

566
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,280
I think if I'd had other 
aspects. 

567
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:57,640
My personality of my life. 
I like, is it Frank Stokeberg 

568
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,360
who like describes it like 
having a house and like running 

569
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,560
can be a room, but you need 
other hobbies and other other 

570
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:08,840
aspects, other enjoyment, other 
ways that you're getting those 

571
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,040
kind of self worth or what 
you're interested in. 

572
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,360
And then if there's a fire in 
one room, you can cut a 

573
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,760
container and you've got other 
things going on. 

574
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:24,080
But if, if your whole house is 
running, then it all goes, which

575
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,760
is what what I happened to me 
those years ago. 

576
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,160
So I think that might be a 
reflection. 

577
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,920
I think also just I suppose one 
thing, like people were quite 

578
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,120
surprised about my story, like 
people that knew me at the time.

579
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:39,800
Well, I, I didn't know it was 
that bad. 

580
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,480
So maybe that we just don't know
what people are going through. 

581
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,440
So that's all. 
Just be a little bit kinder to 

582
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:52,360
each other. 
And yeah, I think probably those

583
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,160
are the main things. 
But I did have, I did have a lot

584
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,560
of fun running. 
So hopefully there's there's 

585
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,080
enough silly stories about 
running your feet and teeth and 

586
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,560
things in it sounds a bit heavy 
otherwise. 

587
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:16,880
And I, I, I work in IT and I, I 
think that there is a 

588
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,440
unproportional amount of IT 
workers and teachers in ultra 

589
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,200
running. 
It's probably because you're 

590
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,840
stuck behind a desk all day. 
Do you find that there's a lot 

591
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,040
of lawyers, particularly human 
rights lawyers? 

592
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,560
Do you do you know any other 
lawyers that run? 

593
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:40,240
Yes, yeah, I do. 
Yeah, I think, I think. 

594
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,120
And I'm, oh, we're so 
generalizing, aren't we? 

595
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:53,880
Like I, I, I recognize traits 
that I had in terms of sort of 

596
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:59,800
proving things, perfectionism 
and I think kind of lawyers, 

597
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,760
quite a lot of doctors, dare I 
say as well. 

598
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,840
And that's some things in 
running. 

599
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,240
And I'm not saying that 
everybody's like this and I'm 

600
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:11,840
not, but also I think I was a 
coach for 3 1/2 years. 

601
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,520
So I had that perspective of the
people. 

602
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,240
But then again, there's probably
a bias in that people that are 

603
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:19,400
similar to me are drawn to me 
for coaching. 

604
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,000
So it's not, it's not a detailed
research thing that I used to 

605
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,800
see, particularly in women that,
yeah, there was a real link with

606
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:34,920
like performance and how well I 
had to do to prove something. 

607
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,760
And it was all going to be a 
disaster if I didn't set these 

608
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,240
ridiculously high standards. 
And I think looking back, I just

609
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:44,440
wish I'd enjoyed some of it a 
bit more and just relaxed 

610
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,760
because now I don't have any of 
that. 

611
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,760
I just, I can't because I can't 
perform and I can't, I'm not 

612
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,120
going to go and win anything. 
I can't run. 

613
00:37:54,200 --> 00:38:03,240
And it's it's really enjoyable. 
And so, yeah, I think, I think 

614
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,240
maybe that ultra running and I 
think ultra running is pretty 

615
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:10,000
extreme. 
And there's people out there, 

616
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,720
particularly on social media 
doing really extreme things to 

617
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,040
their bodies. 
And like when I was a coach used

618
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,120
to like an ultra race. 
It's the sort of trauma so that 

619
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:25,320
we've on our body takes 
recovery, a lot of recovery and 

620
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:30,600
really respect for your body of 
what it's done. 

621
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:36,320
But let's look after it. 
And I think ultra running is 

622
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,600
often glamorises the extreme 
exercise. 

623
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,880
It can mask a lot of problematic
behaviours around exercise and 

624
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,760
eating and like openly and 
people are celebrating that so 

625
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,040
often. 
I, I mean, a part of the way 

626
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,680
that I got through being told 
that I never run again is I'm 

627
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:01,800
following a lot of ultra running
accounts and people and that 

628
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,880
cold just continues to this day.
Like I want to see the pretty 

629
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,480
views and I want to know what 
the best bit was and how happy 

630
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,800
it made you. 
And that's what I'll follow and 

631
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,040
celebrate, but I don't want to 
know what stupid things you've 

632
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,800
been doing back-to-back runs or,
you know, miles and how many 

633
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,560
this and that. 
Nah, I'm out. 

634
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:32,280
You, you said that you you wish 
now that you found it fun back 

635
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,640
then when you were running. 
Was it fun back then? 

636
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,320
It's just you've got a different
perspective on it now. 

637
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,680
Oh yeah, no, I had a total 
totally fun time. 

638
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,880
I think I what I mean is I wish 
I there were points where I wish

639
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,360
I'd taken it less seriously. 
So I'm thinking like the 

640
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,240
training was always fun. 
I never. 

641
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:56,720
The only time that it wasn't fun
was when I was ill, recovering, 

642
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,320
trying to combine or not 
realizing that I was about to 

643
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,560
get ill and just thinking I was 
like just. 

644
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,600
Why is it so hard? 
I think the bits that I would 

645
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,320
have changed, just putting 
pressure on myself in races, 

646
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,480
like I didn't have that when I 
started. 

647
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:17,280
And I think some comments from 
people about my results. 

648
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,720
I think just I put a lot of 
pressure on myself to perform 

649
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,560
and not even like outcome goals 
that were just nothing to do 

650
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,880
with me about what position I'd 
be and things like that. 

651
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,680
And I just wish I'd taken that 
hassle away just gone. 

652
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,600
But I, I had a such a good time 
and still have a lovely time 

653
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,920
going out into muddy hills and 
mountains. 

654
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,520
And And so, yeah. 
And I think as a coach as well, 

655
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,800
that would always be sometimes 
that was the question that 

656
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,440
needed to be asked. 
Like, well, why did you start 

657
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,160
running them and why are you 
doing this? 

658
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,680
What's the fun bit and just 
getting back to that and getting

659
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,080
away from all the stats and the 
data and graphs and things like 

660
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,960
that? 
And you, you mentioned about 

661
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:11,080
glamorizing food and what people
how do you fuel for your running

662
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,400
now, your adventures, your 
mountain leading what? 

663
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,320
What do you eat on a normal diet
and during your run? 

664
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,280
Yeah, so I've been vegan for 10 
years now, which really suits 

665
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,280
me. 
I really like, like I and I 

666
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,400
think I, I follow a cycle of 
like, I'll really love something

667
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,080
and then probably just overdo it
a bit and then have to find 

668
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:41,000
something else. 
So I go in cycles around I also 

669
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,080
it depends on the weather. 
I've had some really bad 

670
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:50,880
incidents with frozen bars in 
the book of like my endless 

671
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,640
teeth falling out because I lost
my teeth when I was like 

672
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,720
mountain biking as a child and 
have false teeth. 

673
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:02,360
And yeah, that doesn't always 
work well with really chewy 

674
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,960
stuff that were like Cliff 
blocks and Cliff bars. 

675
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,880
They're no no for me in winter. 
But flapjacks, tea palsy 

676
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,240
flapjacks, that's not going to 
get me a sponsorship deal, is 

677
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:16,600
there? 
But they they'd like too soft in

678
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,480
really hot weather, but great in
winter. 

679
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,520
I really like boom bars and so 
far haven't overdone those and 

680
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,800
got sick of those, so I rotate 
those flavours. 

681
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,600
But if you go a bit slower, you 
can stop, get your stove out, 

682
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:35,960
cook real meals. 
Yeah, it was always party things

683
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,480
that were my, like, little 
secret weapon in ultra races 

684
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,160
because I always found them like
sweet enough that they gave you 

685
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,720
a bit of a sugar hit. 
But they weren't like too sweet 

686
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:53,600
and they weren't too like, like 
flavour and strong flavour when 

687
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,040
you're 90 miles into a race or 
something like that. 

688
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,160
Yeah, variety. 
But but try not to get bored of 

689
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:04,040
like having too much of one 
thing. 

690
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:10,720
Yeah, I I've done a race, I 
think it was the C2C140 miles 

691
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:15,720
across England. 
And you've done the mountainous 

692
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:17,560
version, I think the northern 
traverse. 

693
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:23,960
This was the road version, and I
remember almost every checkpoint

694
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,160
I had what we were calling 
Aldibar, Aldibar, Aldibar. 

695
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,640
And yeah, I can never eat one of
them again. 

696
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,240
I had, I'd been training for 
Coast to Coast in Northern 

697
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,200
Traverse and at the time I think
it was a trek. 

698
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,120
You know those flapjacks and 
they used to do this Banana 1 

699
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,760
and I just loved it. 
Absolutely great. 

700
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:46,880
And I had, I'd gone heavy on 
them in the race and in my drop 

701
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,080
bags. 
And then I think I was like 

702
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,760
within the 1st 10 miles, I got 
it out. 

703
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,200
I just was like, I can't, I 
can't face this. 

704
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,800
And I just had to, that was it. 
I've never had one again. 

705
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,000
I don't think they do them 
anymore. 

706
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,880
So yeah, I always whenever I was
coaching and we were going 

707
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,080
through food and if somebody had
like sent me a photo of what 

708
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,320
they were taking, it was all the
same brand. 

709
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,000
I'm like, yeah, maybe that's can
we get a bit of variety in 

710
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:18,800
training. 
So the last guest that we had on

711
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,560
Jen, as you'll know, was your 
lovely husband, Marcus. 

712
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,800
And we've got you on this week. 
But we want to know the V about 

713
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,560
how the real staff of the Scott,
the household does. 

714
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,280
Sherlock the Beagle, how has he 
shaped the way you get outside 

715
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,800
and connect with the world now? 
Oh. 

716
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,920
He's not here, unfortunately in 
this room. 

717
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,400
He's obviously sneezing on the 
sofa and he's 14 years old. 

718
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,960
And I got, I originally, I've 
always wanted a dog, love 

719
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,560
beagles, love Sherlock Holmes. 
So it kind of came together and 

720
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,520
at the time Sherlock was to get 
me away from my desk. 

721
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,480
I was like working 80 hour weeks
as a lawyer and just had didn't 

722
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,640
have that reason to take the 
breaks and get out. 

723
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,600
So I thought, oh, dog's going to
force me to do that. 

724
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,320
And this is before I started 
running and going back to 

725
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,720
running. 
And so that's why I got him. 

726
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,680
And it worked like it. 
It meant that I got out twice a 

727
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,760
day. 
But I think what Sherlock's 

728
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,160
actually taught me is just being
happy doing nothing and just 

729
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,480
sitting down and sitting on the 
sofa and not being so active. 

730
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,880
Like, yeah, when he was a puppy,
he was really active. 

731
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,360
But now, I mean, like, if it's 
raining, he doesn't want to go 

732
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,160
out for a walk. 
He's quite happy to skip walks 

733
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,160
all the time. 
And I think going back to kind 

734
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,520
of that time when I was that 
just that stress lawyer and just

735
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,320
trying to hold everything 
together and people please and 

736
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,240
be this perfect lawyer, 
girlfriend, daughter, whatever. 

737
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,680
I think Sherlock just gave me a 
little bit of a perspective and 

738
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,960
just that step back to just kind
of don't take it so seriously 

739
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,680
and relax a lot more and sit and
do nothing. 

740
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:11,520
And if the sun is streaming in 
the window onto the sofa, just 

741
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,760
go and sit there, not rush 
around. 

742
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:23,280
So yeah, he's my spiritual guru.
And for guests that don't know, 

743
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:28,800
beagles are hounds. 
They like to smell things, so if

744
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,480
they smell something on the 
trail they will go that way. 

745
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,760
How was he for a or is he for a 
running dog? 

746
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,040
I got him. 
Well, obviously I wasn't running

747
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,000
at the time and then I started 
running and we did run together.

748
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:47,880
And beagles are not great. 
I'd say like he's they don't 

749
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,240
have the gene where they want to
please a human because they're 

750
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:53,960
bred to go off impacts and 
working away from humans. 

751
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,320
So they're not going to, they 
don't want to please you. 

752
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,640
It's not unless you've got food,
it's not in their interest. 

753
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,960
Also like you say, they just 
follow sense. 

754
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,640
So unless you've got something 
running in a nice straight line 

755
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,280
down a path, they're just 
zigzagging, stopping. 

756
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:12,080
And I, I did run with him for a 
few years and then I was due to 

757
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,000
do the spine challenge of the 
year before I did do it. 

758
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:19,240
And I in the, I tore my meniscus
and I went to a physio like, 

759
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:22,080
well, why is this happened? 
And he watched me run and he's 

760
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,760
like, why are you dipping your 
shoulder on that side? 

761
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,160
I was like, oh, because that's 
normally the side with the lead.

762
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,240
And I'm kind of, so that's when 
we stopped running together. 

763
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:33,320
And I think to be honest, he, he
preferred that as well. 

764
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,600
So I am jealous of people with 
the lovely collies to heal 

765
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,560
running all over the place, 
loving it at Beagles. 

766
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:45,920
My Beagle wasn't really like 
that the best run that I had. 

767
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:50,640
So I was in the Lake District 
with him and we would Marcus, we

768
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,880
both decided that we were going 
to do the Fairfield Horseshoe, 

769
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,880
but not together. 
So Marcus was like, well, I'm 

770
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,760
going to go off, do it and then 
I'll, you know, have time for a 

771
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,080
shower. 
And also it was by the time I 

772
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,320
got back. 
So he sat off and did it, and 

773
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:08,320
then I sat off with my friend 
Mark and I'm Sherlock. 

774
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,160
But Sherlock was following 
Marcus's scent and that site 

775
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,400
super fast. 
We were super focused. 

776
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,800
That's like Sherlock just saw 
this as like a game. 

777
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,400
I'm chasing Marcus down. 
So yeah, that was a really good 

778
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,920
run, but it was one of many that
went. 

779
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,880
I just hope Marcus went the 
right way then. 

780
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,720
I could like literally see every
line that he won because 

781
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:33,360
Sherlock was nose to the ground.
You know that he got in the bus 

782
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,880
and missed out 10 mile section. 
Can confirm he did actually do 

783
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,160
it. 
It wasn't a race, by the way. 

784
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,800
It was just a. 
Run. 

785
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,120
And you said that that was one 
of the best runs that you've 

786
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,720
done. 
What about achievements? 

787
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:51,720
Not not necessarily a run, just 
what? 

788
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:58,360
What are you most proud of? 
I'm still here, still smiling. 

789
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,800
You read the book? 
Yeah. 

790
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,440
I mean, that was the best one 
with Sherlock. 

791
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,960
I'm just, you know, putting in 
some parameters there. 

792
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:14,120
I think it's probably that 
getting out of my comfort zone 

793
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,320
so many times. 
I think that's what I'm most 

794
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,600
proud of. 
And now looking back, I am not a

795
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,280
different person to that person 
that turned up not wanting to 

796
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:29,600
speak to anybody and not wanting
to be seen and so really proud 

797
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:33,200
of of putting myself in 
uncomfortable situations so many

798
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,400
times and having a good, good 
time. 

799
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,360
It's good to say you've run 
across the country, isn't it 

800
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,880
quite like that one? 
That was a good straw of a map. 

801
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:51,880
But yeah, I mean, I think the 
longer I move away from those 

802
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:58,560
races, like no matter how good 
the result, it fades. 

803
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,600
Like your brain just gets used 
to that and it's on to the next 

804
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,360
thing. 
And I think if you live by those

805
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,680
achievements and you're never 
going to be satisfied because it

806
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,520
will always just, your brain is 
like, OK, that fades on to the 

807
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,840
next, on to the next. 
And so my happiest memories are 

808
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,960
not really those finish lines. 
It's just all the laughs that 

809
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,360
I've had with friends as we've 
been going around the 

810
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,240
countryside, just all the 
amazing views and yeah, some 

811
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:29,160
really good memories. 
And I don't know if this is 

812
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,440
going to be a similar answer for
the next question, which is why 

813
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:39,920
do you run? 
I mean, I don't, I can't run at 

814
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,200
that level or how I used to. 
So at the moment, I mean, I 

815
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,200
still, I still got all my 
running gear and I still wear 

816
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,280
it, but most of the time it's 
it's much more of a walk post 

817
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,880
knee surgeries. 
So I think the book's been out 

818
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:55,400
long enough. 
It's probably not a spoiler to 

819
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:01,560
say that I had two knee 
replacements, but I I just still

820
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,200
get out. 
I'm in like a trainee in the 

821
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,680
mountain rescue team and live 
out in the Scottish mountains 

822
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,600
now by a log. 
And for me, just that whether 

823
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:18,080
it's walking or running, it's 
just amazing seeing new 

824
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,960
perspectives, new views, 
exploring. 

825
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,200
And now I've got all Scotland to
explore. 

826
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:31,800
I I like the headspace as well. 
So one of the things that more 

827
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,280
recently, like I work in 
politics now and I've juggled to

828
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:41,600
pretty busy jobs in politics and
quite often getting out for a 

829
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,840
walk, just particularly if I can
do it before I start the day, 

830
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,480
just getting my head in order. 
It's really valuable time for 

831
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,120
me. 
And I find that it'll come back 

832
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,960
much more creative, much more 
able to solve problems. 

833
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,080
Things that I was worried about,
I suddenly see a way through and

834
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:04,200
I, I still have the social side 
of getting out as friends, 

835
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,360
whether that's a walk or we're 
pretending to run because not 

836
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,400
really very much get out with 
Marcus as well. 

837
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,560
It's still, no matter the speed,
I've still got those benefits. 

838
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:20,600
I mean, I do like the freedom 
that comes in getting my tent on

839
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,840
my back. 
Like I did the African tailway, 

840
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,440
like a 44 mile route in Scotland
last year when the weather was 

841
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:33,080
good and just that, yeah, being 
out, having that freedom miles 

842
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:38,440
away from emails and team chats 
and notifications, just really 

843
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,240
good. 
I like, I don't, I don't mind 

844
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:43,600
being sensible at my desk, but I
can't do it all the time. 

845
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,000
So I just have to have that 
release. 

846
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:54,160
And you, you mentioned earlier 
about getting sort of getting 

847
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,320
out to run to get away from 
things. 

848
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,280
What is it that you think about 
while you're running? 

849
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:09,720
I mean, I still listen to music.
I've got a running playlist and 

850
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,640
sometimes I go out and 
deliberately just put on all 

851
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,680
this kind of dance music and 
stuff that I used to dance to in

852
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,520
clubs. 
That was a long time ago, and I 

853
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,720
listen to that and that sort of 
clears my head if I need to, if 

854
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:27,040
I don't want to be thinking 
about things. 

855
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,000
But as I said often then I'm not
listening to music. 

856
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,720
I'm tuning in to what's going 
on, whether it's work stuff, 

857
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,640
other stuff. 
I can come back. 

858
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,040
And I've been out for an hour 
and I couldn't tell you what I 

859
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,200
thought about. 
I should probably, probably 

860
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:47,160
quite common, isn't it? 
So yeah, just I find it 

861
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,960
sometimes I think the best way 
to describe it is like a comb, 

862
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:56,080
like just combing through my 
head and I come back feeling a 

863
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,320
bit clearer and a bit less messy
in there. 

864
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,560
And sometimes I just get out for
10 minutes at lunchtime, even 

865
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,280
just particularly in Scotland 
and winter when I'm not seeing 

866
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,960
much daylight. 
And that's enough to just get 

867
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:17,000
those benefits for me. 
And as we mentioned in the 

868
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,160
introduction, you're a very busy
lady. 

869
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:24,080
Do you have any projects, 
events, new books, or anything 

870
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,920
coming up in the near future 
that you'd like people to know 

871
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,280
about? 
Oh, I wish so I got too busy 

872
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,840
really when I started the 
politics jobs and I've just had 

873
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,520
to pause my podcast. 
I mean, well done to you guys. 

874
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:43,320
You're juggling so much. 
I just felt like I wasn't giving

875
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,640
the guests the attention that I 
wanted so quite often. 

876
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,960
Well, like uniquely, I don't 
read books and, and do the 

877
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,640
research and then after I really
want to share the bits that 

878
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,120
meant something. 
And I just found that I just 

879
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,120
couldn't juggle that. 
So podcast has been paused for a

880
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,560
bit. 
And like, I used to run, teach 

881
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,680
yoga, I cover classes and also 
run my own retreats. 

882
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,040
And everything's been put on 
pause while we, you know, fight 

883
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:14,720
the far right. 
So yeah, I and also I did have 

884
00:55:14,720 --> 00:55:18,360
more writing projects, but 
that's that's slowing down 

885
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,160
because when I'm doing on days 
at the moment, I don't want to 

886
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,200
put my computer on a right. 
So no, I I'm really happy that I

887
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:31,840
still have some talks lined up. 
So I'm going to be at like the 

888
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,640
Keswick Mountain Festival. 
And I think that'd be really 

889
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,960
nice because when I first 
started doing well after the 

890
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,800
book either if I was going to 
book talks that were more sort 

891
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:47,000
of running based things, I'd 
actually find it quite sad that 

892
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:50,880
I don't really feel part of the 
running community anymore. 

893
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,440
And it's just quite bitter and 
jealous about everybody else 

894
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,080
that could run. 
And even going to races when 

895
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:02,120
Marcus was doing it, it just it 
never felt quite fun. 

896
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:08,480
But I feel like because time has
has helped and getting new 

897
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:12,960
focuses away from running has 
helped, I feel like I'm actually

898
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,240
looking forward to to seeing old
friends and acquaintances at 

899
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:21,040
those sorts of events. 
So hopefully I can squeeze a few

900
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:22,440
more in. 
I did. 

901
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,040
I have been doing some book 
events. 

902
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,880
And that's one of the great 
things that you don't really. 

903
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,400
Well, I hadn't thought about. 
You know, you kind of get 

904
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,040
focused to this book coming out 
and then you've got a whole like

905
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,360
it's just the beginning and some
lovely. 

906
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,680
Well, I like talking to you and 
doing events in person. 

907
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:44,320
Yeah, it's been good, but at the
moment there's nothing on the 

908
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,040
horizon because I have been too 
busy. 

909
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,560
You just mentioned there that 
the podcast is on hold. 

910
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,960
Give a shout out to the podcast 
Resilience Rising. 

911
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,680
Yeah, resilience rising. 
So I, I bill it as the podcast 

912
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,480
that gets curious about 
resilience. 

913
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,880
And that's really what I wanted 
to do. 

914
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,360
Like I was saying earlier, I 
kind of wanted to, I mean, 

915
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,040
spoiler is I was out there going
like, how do I be resilient? 

916
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:19,320
And actually what the podcast 
has really shown me is that 

917
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,040
we're all resilient. 
I was resilient and part of the 

918
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:27,120
messy bit that I didn't like, 
which was the sobbing, that's 

919
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,320
part of resilience. 
You can't, you know, that's it. 

920
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:35,040
But I do feel like speaking to 
all these people has really 

921
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,560
helped me perhaps move through 
that a bit quicker. 

922
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:43,360
Get out of that for me, what was
the wallowing pity, pity party? 

923
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,400
And it's been amazing just 
getting to speak to people. 

924
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,560
So yeah, resilience rising and 
and all the episodes are out 

925
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,560
there. 
And I do hope it is a pause 

926
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,720
because I'm still getting some 
guests that really I really love

927
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:02,360
to speak to. 
So perhaps I can resurrect it 

928
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,320
when I get a bit more balanced 
back in my life. 

929
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,800
And I speak to there are runners
and sports people on there. 

930
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,960
I had quite, it's quite 
emotional talking to Beth Pascal

931
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:17,600
when she was out injured and, 
and learning how she kind of was

932
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,920
dealing with that. 
I think John Kelly's probably 

933
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,760
the only person that I've let on
and just like allowed to talk 

934
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,480
about running, but he's got a 
really good perspective of like 

935
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,080
just just the dude running 
around of forest. 

936
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,160
So, but also I speak to like 
people who somebody's got a PhD 

937
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:39,480
in resilience and a lot of other
people that have studied 

938
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,200
resilience, written books about 
resilience. 

939
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,920
And then there's also like as a 
woman whose husband was murdered

940
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,400
and somebody whose child died. 
And it's like, how do you, how 

941
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:53,160
do we start to pull together how
we've got through these really 

942
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,880
dark, tough moments, life 
changing moments? 

943
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:02,000
And there's so many great 
conversations and you talk about

944
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,200
projects. 
I mean, I did start trying to 

945
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,800
pull that together to be a book 
about resilience. 

946
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:13,960
I didn't get super far like, but
but at one point I just for me, 

947
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:20,600
I just thought, you know, I 
need, I want to move past that 

948
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,680
really dark period in my time of
of not being able to run of my 

949
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,960
life sort of collapsing. 
And I didn't find it was that 

950
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,960
helpful to be talking about 
resilience, writing about 

951
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,040
resilience. 
Like I just wanted some lighter 

952
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:39,240
things in my life, which is when
I stepped away from that 

953
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,440
particular project. 
And I do like, it's still there.

954
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,400
Like I do feel like I will go 
back to at some point. 

955
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,920
But I've also really enjoyed 
doing some fun other things in 

956
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,440
with my writing, but then also 
just getting out and meeting 

957
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:57,200
people and joining Mountain 
Rescue and doing some, yeah, 

958
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,360
some other projects. 
So there's still a lot going on.

959
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:05,880
Actually isn't the one I talk. 
About and you you said it was on

960
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,120
pause. 
From a personal perspective, I 

961
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,280
hope it is a pause because I've 
started listening to it and I 

962
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:15,560
think I'm 8 episodes in the last
two days, so you're giving me a 

963
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:17,560
chance to catch up but. 
Oh well. 

964
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,000
Done these the episodes that I 
have listened to, the question 

965
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:26,000
that you keep asking people, and
I'm going to ask you, what do 

966
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,040
you think resilience is? 
Oh my God, my. 

967
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,520
And it always felt really bad 
asking that. 

968
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,560
So that was sometimes it was the
opening, like in the early days,

969
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,040
I kind of imagined it like I 
would ask everybody that as the 

970
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,720
opener and see where we went. 
But I did feel bad because I 

971
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,200
just thought I wouldn't know if 
anybody asked me. 

972
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:54,000
But I think, like, I think when 
I sat off talking about 

973
01:00:54,000 --> 01:01:00,200
resilience and I thought it was 
this kind of magic key that if I

974
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,760
just followed all these steps, I
would never feel sad and I would

975
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:09,000
never feel like I'm just that 
snotty mess on the sofa and bad 

976
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,280
things wouldn't happen to me. 
Like I'd just have this armour 

977
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:16,040
where I could just glide along. 
And then I soon realized that 

978
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,160
that isn't resilience. 
And I think also a type of 

979
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,400
resilience that I thought was 
like quite stoic. 

980
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:24,400
That's not resiliency. 
That like, you've got to be 

981
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:29,280
vulnerable and messy. 
I honestly like the more I got 

982
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,360
into it, the more I was like, Oh
my God, there's so much to it. 

983
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:36,880
And then but what I kept coming 
back to is resilience is just 

984
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,960
going forward. 
And sometimes going forward is 

985
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:44,080
sitting on the sofa resting or 
sitting on the sofa crying. 

986
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,040
You're still, it's still going 
forward. 

987
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:52,320
It's still got a purpose. 
And so, yeah, I think in the 

988
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:56,040
end, that's just, I think one of
the guests, I don't know, 

989
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,480
possibly was it? 
I don't know. 

990
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,840
I don't want to say like, This 
is why I need to go back because

991
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,520
there's so much in that just 
said about like taking the next 

992
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,320
step. 
And I like that as well. 

993
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,240
I think. 
I think at one point I was 

994
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:13,800
looking for this very 
complicated way, resilience and 

995
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:15,760
everything in it. 
And there was some like guests 

996
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,520
would just talk and talk and 
talk for like an hour and a half

997
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,040
and I didn't even feel like we'd
scratched the surface. 

998
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,360
And I'd be like, Oh my God, this
is so difficult, but it's just 

999
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,640
doing the next thing. 
It's just taking the next step. 

1000
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:31,280
And that can look like so much, 
so many big things. 

1001
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,640
Or it can look like, like little
things like like I say, just 

1002
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:40,000
sitting there or picking up the 
phone or just getting up or just

1003
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:45,720
going to bed, whatever it is, 
it's just, and I think in my own

1004
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:51,200
life, like I, I really do see 
how even those really dark days 

1005
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,560
that I write about in the book, 
they're temporary. 

1006
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,160
It nothing lasts forever. 
And I think that's also given me

1007
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,560
much more appreciation of the 
good times as well. 

1008
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:04,960
Like I remember a few months ago
or like last year, I wasn't 

1009
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,600
working as many hours as I was 
now and I was just walking 

1010
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,920
across the Loch at sunrise, 
having a swim, sat with my 

1011
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,880
coffee and everything seemed 
just really, really peaceful, 

1012
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:18,760
really easy. 
Nothing was challenging me and I

1013
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,560
was just like, well, enjoy it 
because this isn't going to last

1014
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,080
either. 
Sure enough. 

1015
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,800
So yeah, that's a really tough 
one. 

1016
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,440
And as I say, like I would love 
to, I do want to still pull 

1017
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,680
everything together. 
And really I kind of, I haven't 

1018
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,800
gone back to that piece of 
writing, but I started doing 

1019
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:39,520
these sort of 10 pillars of 
resilience. 

1020
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:41,480
And that's the way that I was 
looking at it. 

1021
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:46,600
And, and, and how trying to pull
together from all those 

1022
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,760
different things that had 
happened to people or that 

1023
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,120
people had studied, what were 
the key themes that kept coming 

1024
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,400
up. 
But yeah, for me, resilience. 

1025
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,720
So like I like to keep it simple
and just just going forward. 

1026
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,240
And you, you might need 
resilience for this next 

1027
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,640
question before you. 
Ask that, mate, before you ask a

1028
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,240
real second nature question. 
Could I just say, Jane, I 

1029
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:12,960
thought that was a really, 
really brilliant answer because 

1030
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,480
unlike Mike, I've not run a 
marathon at all this weekend. 

1031
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:21,240
But this weekend I've not ran. 
So it's actually quite nice to 

1032
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:25,800
hear from someone like yourself 
and fellow runners and people in

1033
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:27,120
the community. 
You know what? 

1034
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,800
It is OK to sit on the couch. 
And I'm not saying it's OK to 

1035
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:33,960
miss runs all the time. 
I've not run this all this 

1036
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:35,600
weekend, I'll admit. 
Sorry. 

1037
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:41,360
But sometimes you just need it 
just a security on and binge 

1038
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:45,560
watch house or stranger things. 
So thank you for that answer. 

1039
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:48,600
I know. 
And the problem with social 

1040
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,480
media is that nobody posts about
that because it looks really 

1041
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:53,320
dull, doesn't it? 
So you just get Mike in his 

1042
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,920
marathon and we'll all know 
what, how how long it took him 

1043
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,320
or how long it didn't take him 
and post all that and he'll get 

1044
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,600
all the likes and, and I think 
you can just feel like we're I'm

1045
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:07,280
being left behind. 
That's how I felt a lot when I 

1046
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,840
was sat down out and actually 
when when COVID came. 

1047
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,760
So I was, I had chronic fatigue 
and was ill going into COVID. 

1048
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:18,600
And I know that for so many 
people, COVID with such 

1049
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:23,400
difficult, stressful time. 
And, but actually from my 

1050
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,960
personal perspective, COVID was 
an easier time for me. 

1051
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:29,800
I mean, I was really lucky in 
that I could work from home and 

1052
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:35,240
was and wasn't ill, but I it, it
felt like the world was kind of 

1053
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,160
catching up with people that 
were chronically I'll because I 

1054
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,480
hadn't been able to race for a 
long time. 

1055
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,160
I hadn't been able to plan 
social things because I just 

1056
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:44,400
didn't. 
I couldn't go out. 

1057
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:50,680
I just spent a lot of time in 
bed and I was just scraping what

1058
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,840
energy I could to get to work 
and back and then collapsing in 

1059
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:55,480
bed. 
And that would be my life. 

1060
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,800
So actually COVID came and 
everybody was forced to do that.

1061
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,040
And suddenly things that I 
couldn't do online, I could do 

1062
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:09,440
online. 
And so, yeah, I think just don't

1063
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,400
get caught up in social media 
and everybody off running and 

1064
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,800
telling you how about the 
wonderful runs, like it's not 

1065
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:19,800
always healthy anyway. 
And have those other aspects of 

1066
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,680
your life so that if running's 
taken away, like at the time I 

1067
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,640
was, I'd stop being a lawyer. 
I was a running coach, so 

1068
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:32,000
running was my job. 
I had like sponsorship with 

1069
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:33,960
brands and some of them have 
stayed with me. 

1070
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,560
I mean, they've been amazing. 
But I had to let a lot of those 

1071
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,920
go. 
And that was, you know, and then

1072
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:44,360
I had just my, I planned, like 
my holidays were running, my 

1073
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:48,560
friends were all runners. 
I everything was so narrow that 

1074
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,520
it felt a disaster to like not 
being able to run and saying, 

1075
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,840
what else did I do? 
And and if you'd have asked me 

1076
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,120
when you do have like a really 
balanced life, Oh yeah, of 

1077
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,880
course I did, but I didn't like 
so much. 

1078
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,440
And then that's not even going 
into kind of myself worth. 

1079
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,160
And who am I if I can't run? 
Well, I'm still me. 

1080
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,520
Like it's only a little a little
thing. 

1081
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,120
So yeah, go off miss runs, go do
other stuff. 

1082
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:16,440
Go and have fun. 
Yeah. 

1083
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:19,160
Yeah, yeah. 
And if it starts getting too 

1084
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:23,240
serious, like just think back, I
don't think I don't meet people 

1085
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,040
when I was coaching that started
running because they wanted to 

1086
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:30,520
win a trophy or get third place.
People started for the same 

1087
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,680
reasons that I did that when it 
helped me with my mental health,

1088
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,360
when I was struggling with 
grief, when it got me away from 

1089
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:39,000
work and got me outside. 
Oh, getting outside makes me 

1090
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,040
feel better. 
Oh wow, I met all these really 

1091
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,480
nice people. 
Oh, I saw some amazing views and

1092
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,800
sunrises and that's why I 
enjoyed running. 

1093
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:51,520
And somewhere along the line it 
got a bit lost in oh God, I've 

1094
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:56,280
got to go and do this time and 
race and I've got to win or else

1095
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,280
or let people down. 
And it's like I remember just 

1096
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:04,800
thinking when I was I was like 
stressing at the start of a race

1097
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,800
because one of the spine 
challenges because the weather 

1098
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:08,160
with awful and running into a 
storm. 

1099
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,040
And I was like, I'm not going to
be last year's time. 

1100
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:12,960
Why am I doing this? 
Like, and then you just thought,

1101
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,080
I can't pull out. 
I mean, I didn't pull out, but 

1102
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:19,279
it's like, well, actually, 
anybody who loved me would have 

1103
01:08:19,279 --> 01:08:20,920
still been absolutely fine with 
that. 

1104
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,200
Like, it doesn't matter if you 
want to walk away from a race. 

1105
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:25,600
Do it. 
Like, have fun. 

1106
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:28,080
Yeah. 
Enjoy your time on the sofa, 

1107
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:33,160
Nikki. 
As Nikki said, our signature 

1108
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:37,760
question, you might need 
resilience. 

1109
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:39,680
It might help with your mental 
health. 

1110
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:47,080
If you were in perfect health, 
who would you like to go for a 

1111
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,920
run with? 
Alive or not, Fictional or real.

1112
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,359
Oh gosh, I should have thought 
about this one, shouldn't I? 

1113
01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:56,800
I'm sure. 
Will you send me this one and 

1114
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:58,319
warn me about this one? 
And I was like. 

1115
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,520
And Mafia won't get offended if 
you don't see him. 

1116
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:06,240
He he does not chat on runs. 
We're not there. 

1117
01:09:06,319 --> 01:09:08,560
I'm not going with him. 
Might as well be on my own. 

1118
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,880
What do people normally go for? 
Like is this one where you can 

1119
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,200
just pick runners that we want 
to meet or is it the. 

1120
01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:18,880
One you want. 
We have to look like, honestly, 

1121
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,399
the first thing that came into 
my head was when I was in the 

1122
01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:24,880
Peak District, I just had a 
group of mates. 

1123
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:30,200
We called ourselves photography 
club because we just took more 

1124
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,800
photos than miles that we ran. 
Like it was all about the photos

1125
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:38,520
and I set up, We've met each 
other probably on like Twitter 

1126
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,120
years and years ago before 
Twitter went to the way that it 

1127
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:45,960
has now. 
And it was just a bunch of mates

1128
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,520
where we would go out for miles,
talk about nothing but talk 

1129
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:53,760
about everything, kind of just 
laugh at each other when we're 

1130
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:57,960
pulling each other out of box. 
And yeah, they'll probably give 

1131
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:04,440
me a bit of for saying, but Zaff
Simon Martin Photography Club, 

1132
01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:07,920
like I had, there's some really 
happy memories of going out. 

1133
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:11,720
And I think like I'm I grew up 
playing football and there 

1134
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:13,280
wasn't like girls football at 
the time. 

1135
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:14,760
So I'm used to just going out 
with blokes. 

1136
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:16,840
And they did tend to be blokes 
that I was running with. 

1137
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,400
And I think I feel fine, like 
I've got brothers. 

1138
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,240
And I always felt I really like 
those groups where you could 

1139
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,960
just laugh at each other and 
nobody was taking it seriously. 

1140
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,360
Nobody cared what time we did or
what the average pace was. 

1141
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:35,480
And I really, I missed that more
than anything else is just 

1142
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:39,120
having them around and just 
being like, it was a bit like 

1143
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,480
kids that don't know to do that,
like get on your bike and go 

1144
01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:43,920
around at each other's house. 
And that's what running felt 

1145
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,960
like with them or with going out
with friends. 

1146
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:50,080
It's just a really nice way to 
pass the time. 

1147
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,640
So if I could, yeah, run with 
anyone, dead or alive, I'd just 

1148
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:57,400
say my old running mates. 
That's a cool answer. 

1149
01:10:57,480 --> 01:10:59,960
Is that all right? 
Should I put on like Internet? 

1150
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:01,200
To me. 
No. 

1151
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,440
Many people answer the question 
whatever way they want. 

1152
01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:10,120
It does not have to be a runner,
it could be somebody who you 

1153
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:14,360
would want to go for a run with.
I think it's like, it's like 

1154
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,600
when you say, oh, who's your 
dinner party? 

1155
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,880
Like dream dinner party guests 
and everybody goes quite like, 

1156
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:23,240
oh, it's a bit like stroking the
ego and how, how amazing and 

1157
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,840
interesting do I look by picking
these selection of people? 

1158
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:28,720
I'd be like, I don't want to go 
for a meal with all those 

1159
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:35,560
strangers, get my mates round. 
I can pick some human rights 

1160
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,200
lawyers. 
Unless Mike has any other 

1161
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:43,040
questions, we've got one last 
question, and this can be quite 

1162
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:46,880
a deep one. 
So for anyone listening who's in

1163
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,480
a season of chronic fatigue, 
uncertainty, or feeling like 

1164
01:11:51,480 --> 01:11:53,760
they've lost the version of 
themselves that they used to 

1165
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,760
rely on, what mindset has helped
you keep moving through the 

1166
01:11:57,760 --> 01:11:59,880
dark? 
And what would you want them to 

1167
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:02,360
know as they navigate their own 
path? 

1168
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:11,160
Oh yeah, I think we've kind of 
covered some of it, haven't we? 

1169
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:17,240
Talking about when I was in that
place, I think there's so much 

1170
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:23,720
noise when I was in that place. 
So there was people with that 

1171
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:28,320
toxic positivity of you'll get 
better just or go to the doctor,

1172
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:30,760
you'll get better. 
Like that didn't help. 

1173
01:12:31,440 --> 01:12:33,880
And the people that didn't know 
what to say just kind of left me

1174
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,200
alone. 
And again, that didn't really 

1175
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:41,720
help, but I can see why. 
And I think what really helped 

1176
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:49,120
for me was feeling the feelings.
It's OK to be sad. 

1177
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:53,120
And if people people can feel 
really uncomfortable with that. 

1178
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:56,760
So that might be something that 
you have to do on your own or 

1179
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:58,760
find find people that 
understand. 

1180
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,160
Like like sometimes I wanted to 
invite friends around, but all I

1181
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,960
wanted them to do was just sit 
there on the bed, which felt 

1182
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:07,720
really weird. 
So I never did. 

1183
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:10,840
But perhaps I could have done 
that and reached out. 

1184
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:16,760
But I think in terms of mindset,
what my book is about and that 

1185
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:26,000
story and what it comes down to 
is for me was taking, giving up 

1186
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:30,080
some of the control about what I
thought my life was going to be 

1187
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:33,440
like. 
And I had it very much planned 

1188
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:38,200
out and my body, my health, it 
just didn't let me do that. 

1189
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:42,800
And that's where the a lot of 
the grief was, that gap between 

1190
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,080
what I thought I should have and
what actually was happening. 

1191
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:52,720
And now I don't have that need 
to control the future. 

1192
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:58,320
And it's been amazing because 
things have happened beyond kind

1193
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:00,680
of my wildest dreams. 
Like even when I moved to 

1194
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:03,120
Scotland, which wasn't that long
ago, like less than two years, 

1195
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:05,760
I'm sort of OK, well, what do I 
do? 

1196
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:08,000
I don't want to do running 
coaching anymore because I don't

1197
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,120
want to talk about running all 
the time because that's really 

1198
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:15,360
not making me better. 
So I sort of what can I do? 

1199
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:16,840
When I'm going to do this, I'm 
going to do that. 

1200
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:22,320
But actually once I just left 
myself open to thinking, I'll 

1201
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:25,000
just see what happens. 
I'll just kind of follow what I 

1202
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:27,120
like. 
I've ended up with a career I 

1203
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:31,960
could never have imagined of in 
politics, even though, like, 

1204
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:34,680
little me, that was what I said 
I was going to go into when I 

1205
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:38,200
was at school. 
So I think and then also just 

1206
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,880
the way that I can enjoy being 
outside, being in the mountains.

1207
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:46,840
It doesn't look like what I 
imagined, but if once I gave 

1208
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,120
that up, I'd just enjoy it. 
It just is what it is. 

1209
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:55,960
And so I think long term, that's
the mindset that's helped me 

1210
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,160
that I don't need to control, 
that I can just be open to 

1211
01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:03,440
what's happening and being a bit
more fluid rather than being 

1212
01:15:03,440 --> 01:15:07,240
rigid. 
But I think if it's somebody 

1213
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:10,720
that's feeling really lost and 
feeling really dark, whether 

1214
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:13,920
it's through illness or other 
things, it's not going to be 

1215
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:17,160
helpful for me going well, just 
give up your plans or surrender 

1216
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:18,720
to the universe. 
Like that's not helpful. 

1217
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:21,320
I think you've really got to 
acknowledge what you're feeling 

1218
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:27,000
and not trying to push that away
because it is it is hard and 

1219
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,160
it's tough and it's some of the 
toughest things that I've gone 

1220
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:35,640
through, but it's also led to 
some of the most interesting 

1221
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:40,080
rich things as well. 
So wouldn't take it away. 

1222
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,720
Like maybe I could have, maybe I
could have got there a bit 

1223
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:47,960
quicker maybe. 
But you know, you just have to 

1224
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:50,680
accept that that's that's my 
story and that's what happened. 

1225
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,680
So I guess, yeah, that would 
probably be my answer. 

1226
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,640
But it's hard. 
Like everybody's so different. 

1227
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,280
And like I'm always really 
careful when people say, well, 

1228
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:06,120
what I've got my health back and
I don't have fatigue now I am in

1229
01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:10,000
great health and people are 
like, well, how did what worked 

1230
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:11,480
for you? 
And it's like, well, what works 

1231
01:16:11,480 --> 01:16:14,400
for me doesn't necessarily work 
for everybody at all. 

1232
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:18,520
So I'm very careful not to not 
to say this is what you need to 

1233
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:20,320
do. 
This is what's going to help you

1234
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:23,480
because we're all so different. 
But I can just say this is 

1235
01:16:23,480 --> 01:16:28,000
what's helped me. 
And I hope that somebody either 

1236
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,800
finds some comfort that there's 
somebody that's got through it, 

1237
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:36,280
or that it gives them some hope 
that at some point their path 

1238
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:43,240
will go that way too. 
And you said there about getting

1239
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:46,720
getting to your destination 
quicker, getting through 

1240
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,960
everything a bit quicker. 
But it's about the journey. 

1241
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:51,800
It's not about the time that you
do it in. 

1242
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:55,600
And yeah. 
There was, I can't stress 

1243
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:56,880
enough, Mike. 
There was a lot of crime, 

1244
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:02,240
obviously. 
I know and like, what is the 

1245
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:03,920
destination? 
There's only one destination 

1246
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:05,480
that we're all guaranteed of, 
isn't it? 

1247
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:09,440
Yeah, well, it's you want that 
to be as far away as possible. 

1248
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:14,320
It's all the journey and I think
like, yeah, I can say that I'm 

1249
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:20,200
not in the dark place that I was
at the end of the book, but also

1250
01:17:20,440 --> 01:17:22,480
I'm not at the final 
destination. 

1251
01:17:22,480 --> 01:17:25,520
I'm just kind of enjoying it and
seeing what happens. 

1252
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:30,680
And I'm sure if, you know, we 
had this conversation in five 

1253
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:32,840
years time, there'd be 
completely different answers 

1254
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:35,080
that have found something else, 
sort of got on with those 

1255
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:38,280
projects or done something else,
you know, like it's life just 

1256
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:41,440
keeps moving and that's what 
makes it so interesting. 

1257
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:43,680
We should do that, Mike, in five
years. 

1258
01:17:44,480 --> 01:17:46,600
Go through all your guests. 
We'll book. 

1259
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:49,560
We'll book you in five years, 
and that's the same question. 

1260
01:17:50,480 --> 01:17:52,680
I'm still too busy. 
No, I haven't done that one. 

1261
01:17:56,640 --> 01:17:58,320
And the podcast is still on 
pause. 

1262
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,200
Yeah. 
Everything's still on pause. 

1263
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:07,760
I'm still working. 
Well, I, I, I think that the key

1264
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,760
that we've taken away from 
tonight is enjoy it. 

1265
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:14,240
Yeah, whatever. 
Whatever it is, just enjoy it. 

1266
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:19,200
And I've enjoyed this episode. 
So all I can say is thank you, 

1267
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,880
Jen, for coming on. 
Thank you, Nikki, for being 

1268
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,000
Nikki. 
And it's goodbye for me. 

1269
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:25,680
Thanks for coming on, Jen. 
Oh. 

1270
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:28,960
You're welcome. 
Thank you so much, lovely to 

1271
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:29,240
chat.