Hello and welcome to another episode of Run Till You're Done,
this week's guest. It's an incredible 1 and I'm
really excited to have them on. She's a runner, hence why she's
coming on to have a chat with us.
She's an author of a book that I honestly couldn't put down.
I'm trying to get more into reading and this one took me
like a day and a bit to read that was that addictive.
She's the host of the podcast Resilience Rising, a mountain
leader, a yoga teacher and a keynote speaker make whether she
getting the time to speak to us tonight.
We are very privileged to introduce Jen Scotney.
Oh, thank you, Nikki. So Jen, how did your running
come into your leaf and actually.
Well, I think I was very lucky in that I grew up in the Pete
district and I had two parents who were into running.
So I guess as a child running was part of my life because I
used to see my dad doing foul races and Rd. marathons.
My mum and my mum and I think my sister at the time who's older
than me, did like the Great North Run.
And so it was thing like I, you know, there'd be a note on the
kitchen table that one of my parents that have gone for a run
and I used to do cross country and we used to run in some
events as when they had family races.
But I would say that I then got out of sport and running when I
left university and went to work as a lawyer in London.
So I guess that running then came back into my life a bit
later, which was in my 30s when I was moved back to the Peat
district and I wanted to just get away from my desk and
started walking and then started jogging little bits and just
felt great. And it built up from there.
So yes, I kind of left it for a quite a while when I was in my
20s, but came back to it. And when you did come back, when
what, what was the first race that you went back to?
So I joined Dark Peak Fell Runners.
So I was living in the Peak District at the time and this,
it was a group that I knew about because my dad used to run with
them or run with people that were in Dark Peak.
And I remember going to Leggett Round Lathkill, which is, I
mean, it's classed as a fell race.
It's probably more of a trail race, but it's probably about 7
miles I think. Really nice part of the Peak
District. And I was so nervous and almost
kind of registered and then drove home because I was just
worried and I, you know, looking back it seems comical that I was
so like nervous about one race. So that's really good to kind of
show how far I've come on that that would just wouldn't bother
me anymore. But yeah, it was a local fire
race. It was like 5 lbs to enter.
And I remember at the end, because I was wearing a Dark
Pete vest, I had people from the club coming and chatting to me
and people that I'm still in contact with now.
So definitely join the local club.
If you even if it's hard and you're nervous about that, I'd
say do it because the benefits just last for you could be for
your whole life. And I I I did a marathon this
morning and 10 LB entry. I can't recommend it enough.
Previous guest Chris Cowley, Fat versus marathon.
And I agree, these are local, small key events are what makes
the running community. Yeah, and no egos and you know,
everybody turning up in whatever kit they want.
And, and I still, I perhaps didn't do loads.
Well, I definitely didn't do loads of foul racing when I was
in the Peak District. But I would do like my local
foul race. And it used to raise money for
like a sports ground and we had a little pavilion.
And it's just really great to see those community kind of
buildings and and life be enriched by running.
And sort of the the opposite end of the spectrum from these low
key events the the Pennine way, you've got a bit of a fondness
for that. I have.
What, What is the fondness? Why?
Why are you so attracted to it? And what, what, what is it that
you've been doing on there? I know that you went for the
fastest known time at one point. Yeah, yeah.
So Nikki mentioned my book Running Through the Dark and
that. Really to me is a bit of a love
letter to the Pennine Way. And going back to my childhood,
like I said, I grew up in the Pete District and was pretty
active as a child and lucky to have parents that would Take Me
Out. So I guess my first first kind
of getting on to the Pennine Way would have been as a child
getting taken to Kinder and Edale and places like that.
But what also attracted me was that my mum and dad had walked
the Pennine Way. They met at Manchester
University and there's some great photos of them before
they're Pennine Way. Like they were out in these kind
of classic 1960s cars and in anoraks and jeans and going out
onto the Pennine Way. They decided to walk it.
So this was in the 1970s and I've got my dad's diary of it.
We've got photo albums of them on it, like my mum going up
kinder and flares. So I I used to love those
stories of them, their adventure on it.
And I think that's the massive thing that drew me to it.
And I wasn't running, like I said, in my kind of 20s, I came
back to it in my 30s. And one of the things that drew
me back to running was it, it was a way that I was coping with
the grief of my dad died and then a few months after my
brother died. So it became even more poignant,
I think just that connection with my dad.
And I was living near the start of it then so often, you know, I
didn't have to travel far. And even actually, when I was as
walking rather than running and living in Manchester, I'd come
out for walks on the Pennine Way.
And then when I started running, I'd kind of be drawn back to it.
And I just love, I love the variety of the Penang Way.
It takes you from the peat district all the way up to
Scotland, which I mean, I live in Scotland now, but it seems
like really adventurous that you could get all the way up, up the
country on foot on this path. And I love I just the variety.
Like one minute you've got the peat bogs and the wide Moors of
the peat district and then you've got the limestone
pavements in the Yorkshire Dales.
You've got hike up Nick, you've got just Hadrian's Wall, like
going past Roman camps and walls just, and then the Cheviots, I
just find them like really empty.
And I, I love the space up there.
So it's, it's got everything. That's one of the reasons I
liked it. And I'd done some of the races
on it. I've done like the spying
challenger three times and but I really just wanted to go and and
run it away from a race and and that was what the the book was
kind of about me trying to do that.
And the you you said that you had your dad's diary with photos
in it. Have you been and react re
enacted any of the photos? I so I, I remember when I was
reckoning it and I was at the end and there's a photo of like
my mum and dad with this sign, but they've moved it and I could
only really work out where they were because of some roof that
was sort of similar. No, I haven't got flares on and
I haven't got like, you know, there's sort of bright probably
show my age here. But when we were kids, we had
like these bright orange, ridiculously huge anoraks,
Cagools, like the, the things being breathable have not been,
was not a thing back then. And they're the sort of things
that my mum and dad wore when they were doing it.
But yeah, I definitely found those photo spots just not
recreated it. And, and often I'm on the pen,
I'm on my own. So it would have been quite a
challenge to be the photographer and an actor.
I I think that you and Marcus will be going up there with a
tripod the next time you're there.
It's down there now, now that we're in solid.
And you mentioned your book. I don't know if we've actually
mentioned the title of the book so far.
It's called Running Through the Dark.
And as mentioned in the introduction, I thoroughly
recommend, when you were writing it, what part of the story for
you personally felt the most important for you to put into
words? Well, the book changed.
So initially I turned to the the actual running of the Pennine
Way because I I ran the coast to coast and I did that as a race,
Northern Traverse and I kind of had a really good time.
But there were definitely times in the race where I was sort of
tired, hungry, and I was just because it you weren't crude.
So it was sort of 40 miles to the next checkpoint and you drop
bag and the troops that I'd got there.
So my mind had been wondering, oh, I wonder how fast I could do
this if I had a crew. And then when you just wreck it
and run the coast to coast, kind of when I finished, the last
thing that I really wanted to do was, oh, let's go back and run
it again. So I kind of knew that I wanted
to go to the Penang way. It was also just that little bit
longer. So it it was just that extra
challenge and something different.
So I started to think about other women that had run it.
I wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go and get a record.
I just kind of curiosity. I just wondered what what the
women's record was. And at the time I think Carol
Morgan had the spine race record.
So the spine is a race that runs along the Pennine Way, but it
doesn't quite go the same way that my parents went and it
misses out the summit of the Chevy and I don't really want to
do it that way. So I started just looking.
I was kind of, I knew the men that had run it.
Some of them were in my running club and I knew that they'd been
crewed by women or paced for certain ones.
And I just, I just got curious about women running the Pennine
Way and I couldn't really find out.
I couldn't find that there were any that had done it outside of
the race. And this was going back a few
years. So you don't, I know there are
women that have done it since I know I don't need to just leave
it. And I but in talking to the, the
men that had done it. So I spoke to to some of the old
record holders and they, they had some really good stories.
And I just felt like we were going to lose those soon,
particularly some of the earlier men there was, you know, they
weren't particularly well, some of them or some had already
died. So I wanted to collect those
stories. And that's initially what I was
going to write about. I was going to write a
collection of stories about other people that had run the
Pennine Way. And then perhaps the last
chapter, I was going to pop up and do my story.
And, you know, there'd be some drama in that.
I lost a shoe or my shoelace broke or something.
It's something, you know, that that was the sort of drama I was
thinking about. And then I spoke to Vertebra.
I was told them this idea when I was doing something else with
them. And as a publisher, they were
like interested and gave me a book deal to do that.
But then what happened was I became quite I'll things that
had been bubbling away in the background suddenly, but came to
the forefront. And there were many months and
months where I wasn't even thinking about the book the
pillow might just just couldn't. I was just surviving.
I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, which is a bit
of a sort of non diagnosis for those that have got it in that
it's like, well, we don't know what else it is, so we'll give
you this diagnosis and there's no treatment and just go away
really. And like one of the doctors said
to me, just you stay positive, you might get better.
And so I was just some for kind of years then was just
surviving. And what I started doing was
assuming that the book would never happen because I'd never
run the pen. I'm waiting at the times where I
just thought I'm never going to be able to leave this bed again
and have a life. And when I did feel well enough,
I wrote. And it was at the time, I never
thought that that would be published or that anybody would
see that. I just thought, I don't really
have another way of discussing or processing or telling anybody
about how I'm feeling. It was very much a diary of just
getting my thoughts out, a stream of consciousness at some
points. And I think going back to you,
the question about kind of the parts that needed to be written,
I honestly don't think I would have remembered how bad it was
if I hadn't had those records of how bad it was.
And I also at the time, this is like before COVID.
So there's been a huge amount of research post long COVID.
Well, I mean, I know we're still with long COVID, but I mean,
post COVID, when people were had long COVID, suddenly a lot of
research, but back then there just wasn't.
And I felt it was really important to to sort of show
people what it's like for people with ME or chronic fatigue
syndrome in that just how your world shrinks.
So I think, yeah, that's probably the part that's really
important to me. And it I did, I was quite
surprised when the publishers wanted to go ahead with the book
because I just thought, well, it's not that classic story of
I'm going to do something and look at me how great I've done
it because it isn't that sort of story.
And also, I just thought who's interested in, in kind of me
wallowing around, crying a lot. But I'm glad that it, yeah, I am
really glad that it's, it's gone out.
And I when I, when they said it was going to get published and,
and we were going through that, I just thought, well, if it
helps one person, then it will be worth it.
But actually I've had hundreds of messages from people.
So I'm glad I went ahead with it.
And do you think you mentioned about COVID sort of progressing
the research into MA and chronic fatigue.
Do you think that would have happened anyway?
Do you think when when you first have symptoms?
Has there been a lot of progression out with this COVID
research into? It no, no, that was it.
There was just nothing and it was very much a seen as a
psychological problem, like there was just nothing.
And I'd go to the doctors. For me it was symptoms came on
quite gradually. So I'd start just getting more
tired and I'd go to the doctors and they'd just be like, well,
your tests are normal. That's great.
Like there's nothing wrong with you and you just think my body
is shutting down. There's clearly something wrong
with me and, and having doctors that had that sort of attitude
to me, just, I mean, there were times when I'm like, is this all
in my head? Am I going mad?
Like what is, is there anything wrong?
And the only time that I was offered something was I was
offered some antidepressants and they were just kept telling me
you're depressed. And I thought I was, I wasn't
depressed. It's at the start of this
illness. It's just the fact that I'm now
like months I'm having to look at giving up work and I can't
just have the life that I wanted.
So no, I don't think it would have happened.
I don't think we'd be in any better place.
And it's not even that there's the treatment there now.
But I do hope that people that have those symptoms are believed
a bit more and perhaps treated a little bit more kinder by the
medical profession. I mean, one of the things when I
was like reading back through the book, so I'd written it over
years and years. So it's quite a thing to have to
read it all in one go suddenly when it's it's coming out.
And I just, I was like, why wasn't I like knocking on the
door of the surgery every day, like trying to get something,
some help. I just think, well, when I was
back there, I was just so used to not being believed by the
doctors of them just taking me away.
At one point they said that I had to stop ringing because I
was taking up too much of their time.
And when I did find something that helped me and told them
about it, they just said, oh, it's just a placebo effect.
And it's just, so it was, yeah, it was really hard to deal with.
And I think, you know, I'm, I'm privileged in that I'm a sis
white female who's been, you know, had education and I still
found it impossible to advocate for myself.
So I can just imagine without those privileges how much worse
it could be. Do you think?
Did there come a point, Jen, where there was anyone in the
medical profession that did eventually believe you and start
to take you seriously? Because I would imagine that
there could be listeners of this episode right now possibly going
through something similar and thinking that I'm going off my
head here and no one believes me.
Have you got any advice that way for other people that have this?
Yeah, I really hope that there is that there has been an
attitude change, but I'm I didn't find anybody.
And in the end what I did was just do my own research.
And again, that's really hard when you're ill, but I I had
pretty bad insomnia. So we like 3:00 AM I'm just
trying to Google symptoms medical.
I was reading medical papers. I was trying to connect these
dots of, of things. I was on forums and I found that
help like meeting, well, no, I wasn't meeting them face to
face, but coming across people that were in similar situations,
it, it sometimes was really helpful in that that point of
like, am I going mad? Like is it linked that every
time I try and stand up, I sort of pass out.
Is it linked that I'm hyper mobile?
All these things that kept coming up.
But then I also found that it wasn't always helpful.
Like sometimes I'd be, you'd be reading people account and they
had been sick for sort of 20 plus years.
And it didn't always make me hopeful that I could see, you
know, a way that I'd get better. And I, I swung between that
quite a lot of would I have a happier life if I just accepted
this was my life that I can't run, I can't get outside, I just
have to spend most of my life in bed?
Or would I be happier if I kept fighting and trying to find a
way? And have hope that I could get
better. And I think I just sometimes it
was one, sometimes it was the other.
So I definitely say it's not helpful when people go, you'll
get better. You'll find something
necessarily like, I do want to hold that hope for people, for
everybody. And I want people to see that I
did get better. And I hope that everybody else
can find their way of getting better.
But also, I know that that sort of toxic positivity isn't always
helpful. Do you think like before you
were diagnosed, before you even had any symptoms, you were a
vulner so you were fitter than the general public?
Did you think that hindered your diagnosis?
No, I mean, I remember the first thing that brought on my
symptoms were I was, I donated blood, which I used to do.
And the first time like 3, I think it's every three months
and three months before I, I'd not be able to because they
said, Oh, you've got low iron. And I kind of thought, oh, I've
been climbing and I'd probably not eaten great.
And maybe it's just a one off. And then the next time I could
donate, but I felt really dizzy like for a few days after.
And because I always used to do the same run in the morning up
Kerber gap on a long Kerber edge.
And I just, it just felt different.
And I went to the doctor and said, I don't, I think I'm
anemic. And they just said you don't
look anemic and you're like, so we had the test and I was
severely anemic. But what happened with me and
everybody's different. So it's not always that helpful
to kind of get into what, what made me better.
But yeah, I was given 9 tablets and my eye levels improved, but
my symptoms didn't really. And so over the rest of the year
until August, I was just getting worse and worse and worse in
terms of fatigue. And then later on, a few years
later, I had other things like joint pain and things.
I think yeah, maybe, maybe it was what I wanted.
I knew I wasn't right running, but then you feel bad
complaining that I can get up and go out for a run.
It's just not. It's just a bit harder than it
should be, like, so maybe I wonder if it was actually kind
of me that put that on myself in that.
But I can still do a lot, so should I be complaining?
There's always people worse. But yeah, that was the way that
it started for me and that I was able to notice that something
wasn't right. Yeah, I totally sympathize with
you. I at a doctor's appointment, our
nearest GP is 7 miles away and I, I didn't have transport, so I
said I was willing to walk there.
And the response was if you're willing to walk there, then
there's nothing wrong with you. Turns out I needed heart
surgery. But that's so it's.
Yeah, I sympathize. Right back to your book, when
you were writing it, is there anything that surprised you that
things that might have not been as you thought that they were,
and then when you wrote it down, it sort of changed the way you
thought about it? I think I'm surprised I wrote a
book. I never really, I mean, I've
always liked reading and writing and I have picture books that
kind of writing and want to get out.
But it was always, yeah, I think that surprised me probably the
most. And like when I got it back from
the editor that with the publisher and they just kind of
corrected the typos and I was like texting the owner of the
publishers going, they're not editing it, why aren't they
taking things out? Why am I?
Why I was thinking I would have to write the whole thing.
So I think that surprised me. I mean, I've already said like I
never set out to to write about myself in this way.
I'm quite a private person. So it's quite scary suddenly
thinking this was going to go out.
And I mean, there's obviously I have still kind of can sense a
bit of what goes in. So it's while everything's in
their truthful, it's like there's obviously I tried to put
what was relevant in rather than everything in my life.
And I think, yeah, I just wasn't expecting to put that in.
Like I think if I'd known that this was going to get published,
I would have been such. I would be more critical and
more editing myself and worrying about it.
Whereas it was just like I felt like I needed to get this out of
me. And that's how how it came
about. Yeah.
So that's probably more the general, general side of it.
You said there that you're a private person, I'm guessing
introverted. I am as well.
Nikki will claim that she is, but she's not.
She'll go and talk to anybody. Do you think that this
publishing of the book has changed that?
Are you more open with people because they're able to read
what's happened to you? I think yeah, it I am very
introverted, just go and lie down.
But I I think at the time before it came out, if you'd have asked
me, well, what you worried about and I would be worried about
people knowing things, how maybe how people might react or you
know, I didn't even tell my family I was writing this book
and and discuss it with them at all.
So now it's come out and I've had some lovely comments and
messages. I also, I'm quite surprised that
I just don't care about reviews. Like I would probably have put
that as though something I'm worried about and I just haven't
looked. I mean, I've seen some of them
and it's fine. Even me, I find it quite funny
when actually the worst one that I saw on Amazon was somebody
that I knew. Thanks for that.
And I am and I think that's probably what's changed me.
It's not that I'm less introverted, but it's that you
face your fears and they don't happen.
And I think that is something about resilience and just make
yourself a bit stronger and being a bit more brave the next
time. And so I would say that that's
really helped and I would encourage people if I sort of
meet quite a lot of people that have books in them and want to
do things and just go for it and.
Something that I found like doing the podcast, you're a
podcast host yourself doing races.
You've done many of the races, a lot of things that I would in
the past find difficult. You go, well, I, I did UT MB
I've why can't I do this? Why, why can't I stand up in a
room for 10 people when I can go and run 106 miles around the
Alps? Is that resilience?
Yeah, I mean. So this is supposed to be the
last question that you haven't seen yet, but I.
Didn't read the ones that I'm the most I've seen.
I yeah, I definitely like there's a point when I was told
I'd never run again and I'm like, whatever, it's just
running around the path. It's all pointless.
You're just running in circles. And why does it matter?
It doesn't matter. But I think looking back, like
running really did change me. But it wasn't necessarily the
100 mile races that changed me. It was all the bits and the
training and the meeting people and the getting out of my
comfort zone and like saying before what my first race was
like I was feeling physically sick going to do that seven mile
race. And I I did it.
And again, my worst fears didn't happen.
I don't, I can't even remember what they were that I'd fall
over or that, you know, be like an hour behind everybody or
whatever it was I was worried about.
And I think it's just those little steps help us be more
resilient. I think running can be really
good sort of things go wrong, things hurt and you get get on
with it. I think that's that's been good.
I find that I get a lot of resilience from being
self-sufficient, being out, making those decisions, looking
after me and I don't have to run for that.
Like I I do quite a lot of camping and just sort of fast
packing, I guess you'd call it. We're going really light with my
kit, but covering, covering a few days.
And yeah, I think when I I just wasn't feeling resilient at the
end of the book, I was sobbing a lot, feeling really sorry for
myself that life hadn't worked out in this wonderful way that I
planned it and I had these plans and how, how couldn't those
happen? And I wasn't feeling resilient.
So I thought, I kind of annoyed myself and thought I need to, I
want to be more resilient. How do I do that?
So I thought, I'm just going to speak to people that know more
about resilience than me and the best way to chat to people that
you want to, especially if you're an introvert like me, is
get them on a podcast. So I had to set up a podcast.
And again, if you would have asked me what I was scared
about, I was scared about listening back and hearing my
voice. Well, after the first edit, I
wasn't bothered about that. I was scared of people saying
no. Well, some people didn't have
time to chat to me or didn't haven't want to.
So that's fine. You know, anything that I was
worried about, none of it happened.
And so I started this podcast about resilience and I think I,
I did get, I did let some runners come on, but I did have
people contacting me saying, Oh, I ran 100 miles and I was really
slow and it was really painful. And I want to tell you about
resilience. And I'm like, well, I still find
running quite a privileged space.
And if you've got the time and money and want the choice to put
yourself through 100 miles, then I'm sure you can learn lots from
it. But it's not really the podcast
resilience that I was talking about.
I like to speak to people who hadn't chosen what had happened
or what they've been through and could then reflect on how they
got over it. Because like running those races
with some of my really fun memories, like, and if it had
gone wrong, well, like my pride might have been a bit damaged,
but nothing was really. There was no consequences
really. It was just a bit of fun.
And so, yeah, I mean, I don't want to take away, like, running
did give me a lot of confidence. One of the things that I
remember was when I was doing the first Spine Challenger, a
montane that I was sponsored by at the time had given me a place
on it and they said, Oh yeah, can you just do some training
vlogs? And I was so shy.
I mean, I went through a whole university degree without
speaking to anybody on my course.
I'm so shy that I was, I took my GoPro out and I didn't, I was
doing runs and I didn't dare speak to the camera, which I
mean, now just seems ridiculous. Like I wouldn't even think about
that. And so it's those sorts of
things that I had to get over. And I think running was just a
good way of doing that at the time.
But it doesn't have to be running.
You can do other things then just get you out of your comfort
zone and push you and get you to do things that you thought you
couldn't do. And then and then that comfort
zone stretches and stretches a little bit.
So it's kind of a safe, fun way of doing that really, isn't it?
And I have one last question about your book, Jim.
And you said there that you were quite emotional when you
finished writing it. It holds so much honesty about
endurance beyond the running. What do you hope that your
readers will carry with them once they've read it?
That's. A good question.
I mean, I think there's part of a book where you can't control
what happens to it when you put it out there.
So I like the way that you faced it.
What do you hope? Because I've got absolutely no
control about what people think or how they take it.
I've, I think, you know, one of the, the things that at that
time of the book was a sort of my, my world narrowed and it
became all about running. I think like things weren't
great in my relationship at home.
My family members that I mentioned had just died.
And my job, I was working as a human rights lawyer was really
stressful and it was quite bleak in terms of legal aid was always
getting cut and we're always having to try and do more.
And I was dealing with some really difficult kind of
children in prison cases. And suddenly running became, it
was great. Like it got me new friends, got
me to new places, it gave me time outside.
It was really positive. But at some point it narrowed
and became like such a big thing in my life.
And the danger of that is that if it's taken away, you what you
left with. And that's really what the
book's about. They're really shaky foundation.
So I think I'd like people to think about that kind of how
seriously they're taking their running and if the what else is
in your life, because my story would have been so much easier,
I think if I'd had other aspects.
My personality of my life. I like, is it Frank Stokeberg
who like describes it like having a house and like running
can be a room, but you need other hobbies and other other
aspects, other enjoyment, other ways that you're getting those
kind of self worth or what you're interested in.
And then if there's a fire in one room, you can cut a
container and you've got other things going on.
But if, if your whole house is running, then it all goes, which
is what what I happened to me those years ago.
So I think that might be a reflection.
I think also just I suppose one thing, like people were quite
surprised about my story, like people that knew me at the time.
Well, I, I didn't know it was that bad.
So maybe that we just don't know what people are going through.
So that's all. Just be a little bit kinder to
each other. And yeah, I think probably those
are the main things. But I did have, I did have a lot
of fun running. So hopefully there's there's
enough silly stories about running your feet and teeth and
things in it sounds a bit heavy otherwise.
And I, I, I work in IT and I, I think that there is a
unproportional amount of IT workers and teachers in ultra
running. It's probably because you're
stuck behind a desk all day. Do you find that there's a lot
of lawyers, particularly human rights lawyers?
Do you do you know any other lawyers that run?
Yes, yeah, I do. Yeah, I think, I think.
And I'm, oh, we're so generalizing, aren't we?
Like I, I, I recognize traits that I had in terms of sort of
proving things, perfectionism and I think kind of lawyers,
quite a lot of doctors, dare I say as well.
And that's some things in running.
And I'm not saying that everybody's like this and I'm
not, but also I think I was a coach for 3 1/2 years.
So I had that perspective of the people.
But then again, there's probably a bias in that people that are
similar to me are drawn to me for coaching.
So it's not, it's not a detailed research thing that I used to
see, particularly in women that, yeah, there was a real link with
like performance and how well I had to do to prove something.
And it was all going to be a disaster if I didn't set these
ridiculously high standards. And I think looking back, I just
wish I'd enjoyed some of it a bit more and just relaxed
because now I don't have any of that.
I just, I can't because I can't perform and I can't, I'm not
going to go and win anything. I can't run.
And it's it's really enjoyable. And so, yeah, I think, I think
maybe that ultra running and I think ultra running is pretty
extreme. And there's people out there,
particularly on social media doing really extreme things to
their bodies. And like when I was a coach used
to like an ultra race. It's the sort of trauma so that
we've on our body takes recovery, a lot of recovery and
really respect for your body of what it's done.
But let's look after it. And I think ultra running is
often glamorises the extreme exercise.
It can mask a lot of problematic behaviours around exercise and
eating and like openly and people are celebrating that so
often. I, I mean, a part of the way
that I got through being told that I never run again is I'm
following a lot of ultra running accounts and people and that
cold just continues to this day. Like I want to see the pretty
views and I want to know what the best bit was and how happy
it made you. And that's what I'll follow and
celebrate, but I don't want to know what stupid things you've
been doing back-to-back runs or, you know, miles and how many
this and that. Nah, I'm out.
You, you said that you you wish now that you found it fun back
then when you were running. Was it fun back then?
It's just you've got a different perspective on it now.
Oh yeah, no, I had a total totally fun time.
I think I what I mean is I wish I there were points where I wish
I'd taken it less seriously. So I'm thinking like the
training was always fun. I never.
The only time that it wasn't fun was when I was ill, recovering,
trying to combine or not realizing that I was about to
get ill and just thinking I was like just.
Why is it so hard? I think the bits that I would
have changed, just putting pressure on myself in races,
like I didn't have that when I started.
And I think some comments from people about my results.
I think just I put a lot of pressure on myself to perform
and not even like outcome goals that were just nothing to do
with me about what position I'd be and things like that.
And I just wish I'd taken that hassle away just gone.
But I, I had a such a good time and still have a lovely time
going out into muddy hills and mountains.
And And so, yeah. And I think as a coach as well,
that would always be sometimes that was the question that
needed to be asked. Like, well, why did you start
running them and why are you doing this?
What's the fun bit and just getting back to that and getting
away from all the stats and the data and graphs and things like
that? And you, you mentioned about
glamorizing food and what people how do you fuel for your running
now, your adventures, your mountain leading what?
What do you eat on a normal diet and during your run?
Yeah, so I've been vegan for 10 years now, which really suits
me. I really like, like I and I
think I, I follow a cycle of like, I'll really love something
and then probably just overdo it a bit and then have to find
something else. So I go in cycles around I also
it depends on the weather. I've had some really bad
incidents with frozen bars in the book of like my endless
teeth falling out because I lost my teeth when I was like
mountain biking as a child and have false teeth.
And yeah, that doesn't always work well with really chewy
stuff that were like Cliff blocks and Cliff bars.
They're no no for me in winter. But flapjacks, tea palsy
flapjacks, that's not going to get me a sponsorship deal, is
there? But they they'd like too soft in
really hot weather, but great in winter.
I really like boom bars and so far haven't overdone those and
got sick of those, so I rotate those flavours.
But if you go a bit slower, you can stop, get your stove out,
cook real meals. Yeah, it was always party things
that were my, like, little secret weapon in ultra races
because I always found them like sweet enough that they gave you
a bit of a sugar hit. But they weren't like too sweet
and they weren't too like, like flavour and strong flavour when
you're 90 miles into a race or something like that.
Yeah, variety. But but try not to get bored of
like having too much of one thing.
Yeah, I I've done a race, I think it was the C2C140 miles
across England. And you've done the mountainous
version, I think the northern traverse.
This was the road version, and I remember almost every checkpoint
I had what we were calling Aldibar, Aldibar, Aldibar.
And yeah, I can never eat one of them again.
I had, I'd been training for Coast to Coast in Northern
Traverse and at the time I think it was a trek.
You know those flapjacks and they used to do this Banana 1
and I just loved it. Absolutely great.
And I had, I'd gone heavy on them in the race and in my drop
bags. And then I think I was like
within the 1st 10 miles, I got it out.
I just was like, I can't, I can't face this.
And I just had to, that was it. I've never had one again.
I don't think they do them anymore.
So yeah, I always whenever I was coaching and we were going
through food and if somebody had like sent me a photo of what
they were taking, it was all the same brand.
I'm like, yeah, maybe that's can we get a bit of variety in
training. So the last guest that we had on
Jen, as you'll know, was your lovely husband, Marcus.
And we've got you on this week. But we want to know the V about
how the real staff of the Scott, the household does.
Sherlock the Beagle, how has he shaped the way you get outside
and connect with the world now? Oh.
He's not here, unfortunately in this room.
He's obviously sneezing on the sofa and he's 14 years old.
And I got, I originally, I've always wanted a dog, love
beagles, love Sherlock Holmes. So it kind of came together and
at the time Sherlock was to get me away from my desk.
I was like working 80 hour weeks as a lawyer and just had didn't
have that reason to take the breaks and get out.
So I thought, oh, dog's going to force me to do that.
And this is before I started running and going back to
running. And so that's why I got him.
And it worked like it. It meant that I got out twice a
day. But I think what Sherlock's
actually taught me is just being happy doing nothing and just
sitting down and sitting on the sofa and not being so active.
Like, yeah, when he was a puppy, he was really active.
But now, I mean, like, if it's raining, he doesn't want to go
out for a walk. He's quite happy to skip walks
all the time. And I think going back to kind
of that time when I was that just that stress lawyer and just
trying to hold everything together and people please and
be this perfect lawyer, girlfriend, daughter, whatever.
I think Sherlock just gave me a little bit of a perspective and
just that step back to just kind of don't take it so seriously
and relax a lot more and sit and do nothing.
And if the sun is streaming in the window onto the sofa, just
go and sit there, not rush around.
So yeah, he's my spiritual guru. And for guests that don't know,
beagles are hounds. They like to smell things, so if
they smell something on the trail they will go that way.
How was he for a or is he for a running dog?
I got him. Well, obviously I wasn't running
at the time and then I started running and we did run together.
And beagles are not great. I'd say like he's they don't
have the gene where they want to please a human because they're
bred to go off impacts and working away from humans.
So they're not going to, they don't want to please you.
It's not unless you've got food, it's not in their interest.
Also like you say, they just follow sense.
So unless you've got something running in a nice straight line
down a path, they're just zigzagging, stopping.
And I, I did run with him for a few years and then I was due to
do the spine challenge of the year before I did do it.
And I in the, I tore my meniscus and I went to a physio like,
well, why is this happened? And he watched me run and he's
like, why are you dipping your shoulder on that side?
I was like, oh, because that's normally the side with the lead.
And I'm kind of, so that's when we stopped running together.
And I think to be honest, he, he preferred that as well.
So I am jealous of people with the lovely collies to heal
running all over the place, loving it at Beagles.
My Beagle wasn't really like that the best run that I had.
So I was in the Lake District with him and we would Marcus, we
both decided that we were going to do the Fairfield Horseshoe,
but not together. So Marcus was like, well, I'm
going to go off, do it and then I'll, you know, have time for a
shower. And also it was by the time I
got back. So he sat off and did it, and
then I sat off with my friend Mark and I'm Sherlock.
But Sherlock was following Marcus's scent and that site
super fast. We were super focused.
That's like Sherlock just saw this as like a game.
I'm chasing Marcus down. So yeah, that was a really good
run, but it was one of many that went.
I just hope Marcus went the right way then.
I could like literally see every line that he won because
Sherlock was nose to the ground. You know that he got in the bus
and missed out 10 mile section. Can confirm he did actually do
it. It wasn't a race, by the way.
It was just a. Run.
And you said that that was one of the best runs that you've
done. What about achievements?
Not not necessarily a run, just what?
What are you most proud of? I'm still here, still smiling.
You read the book? Yeah.
I mean, that was the best one with Sherlock.
I'm just, you know, putting in some parameters there.
I think it's probably that getting out of my comfort zone
so many times. I think that's what I'm most
proud of. And now looking back, I am not a
different person to that person that turned up not wanting to
speak to anybody and not wanting to be seen and so really proud
of of putting myself in uncomfortable situations so many
times and having a good, good time.
It's good to say you've run across the country, isn't it
quite like that one? That was a good straw of a map.
But yeah, I mean, I think the longer I move away from those
races, like no matter how good the result, it fades.
Like your brain just gets used to that and it's on to the next
thing. And I think if you live by those
achievements and you're never going to be satisfied because it
will always just, your brain is like, OK, that fades on to the
next, on to the next. And so my happiest memories are
not really those finish lines. It's just all the laughs that
I've had with friends as we've been going around the
countryside, just all the amazing views and yeah, some
really good memories. And I don't know if this is
going to be a similar answer for the next question, which is why
do you run? I mean, I don't, I can't run at
that level or how I used to. So at the moment, I mean, I
still, I still got all my running gear and I still wear
it, but most of the time it's it's much more of a walk post
knee surgeries. So I think the book's been out
long enough. It's probably not a spoiler to
say that I had two knee replacements, but I I just still
get out. I'm in like a trainee in the
mountain rescue team and live out in the Scottish mountains
now by a log. And for me, just that whether
it's walking or running, it's just amazing seeing new
perspectives, new views, exploring.
And now I've got all Scotland to explore.
I I like the headspace as well. So one of the things that more
recently, like I work in politics now and I've juggled to
pretty busy jobs in politics and quite often getting out for a
walk, just particularly if I can do it before I start the day,
just getting my head in order. It's really valuable time for
me. And I find that it'll come back
much more creative, much more able to solve problems.
Things that I was worried about, I suddenly see a way through and
I, I still have the social side of getting out as friends,
whether that's a walk or we're pretending to run because not
really very much get out with Marcus as well.
It's still, no matter the speed, I've still got those benefits.
I mean, I do like the freedom that comes in getting my tent on
my back. Like I did the African tailway,
like a 44 mile route in Scotland last year when the weather was
good and just that, yeah, being out, having that freedom miles
away from emails and team chats and notifications, just really
good. I like, I don't, I don't mind
being sensible at my desk, but I can't do it all the time.
So I just have to have that release.
And you, you mentioned earlier about getting sort of getting
out to run to get away from things.
What is it that you think about while you're running?
I mean, I still listen to music. I've got a running playlist and
sometimes I go out and deliberately just put on all
this kind of dance music and stuff that I used to dance to in
clubs. That was a long time ago, and I
listen to that and that sort of clears my head if I need to, if
I don't want to be thinking about things.
But as I said often then I'm not listening to music.
I'm tuning in to what's going on, whether it's work stuff,
other stuff. I can come back.
And I've been out for an hour and I couldn't tell you what I
thought about. I should probably, probably
quite common, isn't it? So yeah, just I find it
sometimes I think the best way to describe it is like a comb,
like just combing through my head and I come back feeling a
bit clearer and a bit less messy in there.
And sometimes I just get out for 10 minutes at lunchtime, even
just particularly in Scotland and winter when I'm not seeing
much daylight. And that's enough to just get
those benefits for me. And as we mentioned in the
introduction, you're a very busy lady.
Do you have any projects, events, new books, or anything
coming up in the near future that you'd like people to know
about? Oh, I wish so I got too busy
really when I started the politics jobs and I've just had
to pause my podcast. I mean, well done to you guys.
You're juggling so much. I just felt like I wasn't giving
the guests the attention that I wanted so quite often.
Well, like uniquely, I don't read books and, and do the
research and then after I really want to share the bits that
meant something. And I just found that I just
couldn't juggle that. So podcast has been paused for a
bit. And like, I used to run, teach
yoga, I cover classes and also run my own retreats.
And everything's been put on pause while we, you know, fight
the far right. So yeah, I and also I did have
more writing projects, but that's that's slowing down
because when I'm doing on days at the moment, I don't want to
put my computer on a right. So no, I I'm really happy that I
still have some talks lined up. So I'm going to be at like the
Keswick Mountain Festival. And I think that'd be really
nice because when I first started doing well after the
book either if I was going to book talks that were more sort
of running based things, I'd actually find it quite sad that
I don't really feel part of the running community anymore.
And it's just quite bitter and jealous about everybody else
that could run. And even going to races when
Marcus was doing it, it just it never felt quite fun.
But I feel like because time has has helped and getting new
focuses away from running has helped, I feel like I'm actually
looking forward to to seeing old friends and acquaintances at
those sorts of events. So hopefully I can squeeze a few
more in. I did.
I have been doing some book events.
And that's one of the great things that you don't really.
Well, I hadn't thought about. You know, you kind of get
focused to this book coming out and then you've got a whole like
it's just the beginning and some lovely.
Well, I like talking to you and doing events in person.
Yeah, it's been good, but at the moment there's nothing on the
horizon because I have been too busy.
You just mentioned there that the podcast is on hold.
Give a shout out to the podcast Resilience Rising.
Yeah, resilience rising. So I, I bill it as the podcast
that gets curious about resilience.
And that's really what I wanted to do.
Like I was saying earlier, I kind of wanted to, I mean,
spoiler is I was out there going like, how do I be resilient?
And actually what the podcast has really shown me is that
we're all resilient. I was resilient and part of the
messy bit that I didn't like, which was the sobbing, that's
part of resilience. You can't, you know, that's it.
But I do feel like speaking to all these people has really
helped me perhaps move through that a bit quicker.
Get out of that for me, what was the wallowing pity, pity party?
And it's been amazing just getting to speak to people.
So yeah, resilience rising and and all the episodes are out
there. And I do hope it is a pause
because I'm still getting some guests that really I really love
to speak to. So perhaps I can resurrect it
when I get a bit more balanced back in my life.
And I speak to there are runners and sports people on there.
I had quite, it's quite emotional talking to Beth Pascal
when she was out injured and, and learning how she kind of was
dealing with that. I think John Kelly's probably
the only person that I've let on and just like allowed to talk
about running, but he's got a really good perspective of like
just just the dude running around of forest.
So, but also I speak to like people who somebody's got a PhD
in resilience and a lot of other people that have studied
resilience, written books about resilience.
And then there's also like as a woman whose husband was murdered
and somebody whose child died. And it's like, how do you, how
do we start to pull together how we've got through these really
dark, tough moments, life changing moments?
And there's so many great conversations and you talk about
projects. I mean, I did start trying to
pull that together to be a book about resilience.
I didn't get super far like, but but at one point I just for me,
I just thought, you know, I need, I want to move past that
really dark period in my time of of not being able to run of my
life sort of collapsing. And I didn't find it was that
helpful to be talking about resilience, writing about
resilience. Like I just wanted some lighter
things in my life, which is when I stepped away from that
particular project. And I do like, it's still there.
Like I do feel like I will go back to at some point.
But I've also really enjoyed doing some fun other things in
with my writing, but then also just getting out and meeting
people and joining Mountain Rescue and doing some, yeah,
some other projects. So there's still a lot going on.
Actually isn't the one I talk. About and you you said it was on
pause. From a personal perspective, I
hope it is a pause because I've started listening to it and I
think I'm 8 episodes in the last two days, so you're giving me a
chance to catch up but. Oh well.
Done these the episodes that I have listened to, the question
that you keep asking people, and I'm going to ask you, what do
you think resilience is? Oh my God, my.
And it always felt really bad asking that.
So that was sometimes it was the opening, like in the early days,
I kind of imagined it like I would ask everybody that as the
opener and see where we went. But I did feel bad because I
just thought I wouldn't know if anybody asked me.
But I think, like, I think when I sat off talking about
resilience and I thought it was this kind of magic key that if I
just followed all these steps, I would never feel sad and I would
never feel like I'm just that snotty mess on the sofa and bad
things wouldn't happen to me. Like I'd just have this armour
where I could just glide along. And then I soon realized that
that isn't resilience. And I think also a type of
resilience that I thought was like quite stoic.
That's not resiliency. That like, you've got to be
vulnerable and messy. I honestly like the more I got
into it, the more I was like, Oh my God, there's so much to it.
And then but what I kept coming back to is resilience is just
going forward. And sometimes going forward is
sitting on the sofa resting or sitting on the sofa crying.
You're still, it's still going forward.
It's still got a purpose. And so, yeah, I think in the
end, that's just, I think one of the guests, I don't know,
possibly was it? I don't know.
I don't want to say like, This is why I need to go back because
there's so much in that just said about like taking the next
step. And I like that as well.
I think. I think at one point I was
looking for this very complicated way, resilience and
everything in it. And there was some like guests
would just talk and talk and talk for like an hour and a half
and I didn't even feel like we'd scratched the surface.
And I'd be like, Oh my God, this is so difficult, but it's just
doing the next thing. It's just taking the next step.
And that can look like so much, so many big things.
Or it can look like, like little things like like I say, just
sitting there or picking up the phone or just getting up or just
going to bed, whatever it is, it's just, and I think in my own
life, like I, I really do see how even those really dark days
that I write about in the book, they're temporary.
It nothing lasts forever. And I think that's also given me
much more appreciation of the good times as well.
Like I remember a few months ago or like last year, I wasn't
working as many hours as I was now and I was just walking
across the Loch at sunrise, having a swim, sat with my
coffee and everything seemed just really, really peaceful,
really easy. Nothing was challenging me and I
was just like, well, enjoy it because this isn't going to last
either. Sure enough.
So yeah, that's a really tough one.
And as I say, like I would love to, I do want to still pull
everything together. And really I kind of, I haven't
gone back to that piece of writing, but I started doing
these sort of 10 pillars of resilience.
And that's the way that I was looking at it.
And, and, and how trying to pull together from all those
different things that had happened to people or that
people had studied, what were the key themes that kept coming
up. But yeah, for me, resilience.
So like I like to keep it simple and just just going forward.
And you, you might need resilience for this next
question before you. Ask that, mate, before you ask a
real second nature question. Could I just say, Jane, I
thought that was a really, really brilliant answer because
unlike Mike, I've not run a marathon at all this weekend.
But this weekend I've not ran. So it's actually quite nice to
hear from someone like yourself and fellow runners and people in
the community. You know what?
It is OK to sit on the couch. And I'm not saying it's OK to
miss runs all the time. I've not run this all this
weekend, I'll admit. Sorry.
But sometimes you just need it just a security on and binge
watch house or stranger things. So thank you for that answer.
I know. And the problem with social
media is that nobody posts about that because it looks really
dull, doesn't it? So you just get Mike in his
marathon and we'll all know what, how how long it took him
or how long it didn't take him and post all that and he'll get
all the likes and, and I think you can just feel like we're I'm
being left behind. That's how I felt a lot when I
was sat down out and actually when when COVID came.
So I was, I had chronic fatigue and was ill going into COVID.
And I know that for so many people, COVID with such
difficult, stressful time. And, but actually from my
personal perspective, COVID was an easier time for me.
I mean, I was really lucky in that I could work from home and
was and wasn't ill, but I it, it felt like the world was kind of
catching up with people that were chronically I'll because I
hadn't been able to race for a long time.
I hadn't been able to plan social things because I just
didn't. I couldn't go out.
I just spent a lot of time in bed and I was just scraping what
energy I could to get to work and back and then collapsing in
bed. And that would be my life.
So actually COVID came and everybody was forced to do that.
And suddenly things that I couldn't do online, I could do
online. And so, yeah, I think just don't
get caught up in social media and everybody off running and
telling you how about the wonderful runs, like it's not
always healthy anyway. And have those other aspects of
your life so that if running's taken away, like at the time I
was, I'd stop being a lawyer. I was a running coach, so
running was my job. I had like sponsorship with
brands and some of them have stayed with me.
I mean, they've been amazing. But I had to let a lot of those
go. And that was, you know, and then
I had just my, I planned, like my holidays were running, my
friends were all runners. I everything was so narrow that
it felt a disaster to like not being able to run and saying,
what else did I do? And and if you'd have asked me
when you do have like a really balanced life, Oh yeah, of
course I did, but I didn't like so much.
And then that's not even going into kind of myself worth.
And who am I if I can't run? Well, I'm still me.
Like it's only a little a little thing.
So yeah, go off miss runs, go do other stuff.
Go and have fun. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And if it starts getting too
serious, like just think back, I don't think I don't meet people
when I was coaching that started running because they wanted to
win a trophy or get third place. People started for the same
reasons that I did that when it helped me with my mental health,
when I was struggling with grief, when it got me away from
work and got me outside. Oh, getting outside makes me
feel better. Oh wow, I met all these really
nice people. Oh, I saw some amazing views and
sunrises and that's why I enjoyed running.
And somewhere along the line it got a bit lost in oh God, I've
got to go and do this time and race and I've got to win or else
or let people down. And it's like I remember just
thinking when I was I was like stressing at the start of a race
because one of the spine challenges because the weather
with awful and running into a storm.
And I was like, I'm not going to be last year's time.
Why am I doing this? Like, and then you just thought,
I can't pull out. I mean, I didn't pull out, but
it's like, well, actually, anybody who loved me would have
still been absolutely fine with that.
Like, it doesn't matter if you want to walk away from a race.
Do it. Like, have fun.
Yeah. Enjoy your time on the sofa,
Nikki. As Nikki said, our signature
question, you might need resilience.
It might help with your mental health.
If you were in perfect health, who would you like to go for a
run with? Alive or not, Fictional or real.
Oh gosh, I should have thought about this one, shouldn't I?
I'm sure. Will you send me this one and
warn me about this one? And I was like.
And Mafia won't get offended if you don't see him.
He he does not chat on runs. We're not there.
I'm not going with him. Might as well be on my own.
What do people normally go for? Like is this one where you can
just pick runners that we want to meet or is it the.
One you want. We have to look like, honestly,
the first thing that came into my head was when I was in the
Peak District, I just had a group of mates.
We called ourselves photography club because we just took more
photos than miles that we ran. Like it was all about the photos
and I set up, We've met each other probably on like Twitter
years and years ago before Twitter went to the way that it
has now. And it was just a bunch of mates
where we would go out for miles, talk about nothing but talk
about everything, kind of just laugh at each other when we're
pulling each other out of box. And yeah, they'll probably give
me a bit of for saying, but Zaff Simon Martin Photography Club,
like I had, there's some really happy memories of going out.
And I think like I'm I grew up playing football and there
wasn't like girls football at the time.
So I'm used to just going out with blokes.
And they did tend to be blokes that I was running with.
And I think I feel fine, like I've got brothers.
And I always felt I really like those groups where you could
just laugh at each other and nobody was taking it seriously.
Nobody cared what time we did or what the average pace was.
And I really, I missed that more than anything else is just
having them around and just being like, it was a bit like
kids that don't know to do that, like get on your bike and go
around at each other's house. And that's what running felt
like with them or with going out with friends.
It's just a really nice way to pass the time.
So if I could, yeah, run with anyone, dead or alive, I'd just
say my old running mates. That's a cool answer.
Is that all right? Should I put on like Internet?
To me. No.
Many people answer the question whatever way they want.
It does not have to be a runner, it could be somebody who you
would want to go for a run with. I think it's like, it's like
when you say, oh, who's your dinner party?
Like dream dinner party guests and everybody goes quite like,
oh, it's a bit like stroking the ego and how, how amazing and
interesting do I look by picking these selection of people?
I'd be like, I don't want to go for a meal with all those
strangers, get my mates round. I can pick some human rights
lawyers. Unless Mike has any other
questions, we've got one last question, and this can be quite
a deep one. So for anyone listening who's in
a season of chronic fatigue, uncertainty, or feeling like
they've lost the version of themselves that they used to
rely on, what mindset has helped you keep moving through the
dark? And what would you want them to
know as they navigate their own path?
Oh yeah, I think we've kind of covered some of it, haven't we?
Talking about when I was in that place, I think there's so much
noise when I was in that place. So there was people with that
toxic positivity of you'll get better just or go to the doctor,
you'll get better. Like that didn't help.
And the people that didn't know what to say just kind of left me
alone. And again, that didn't really
help, but I can see why. And I think what really helped
for me was feeling the feelings. It's OK to be sad.
And if people people can feel really uncomfortable with that.
So that might be something that you have to do on your own or
find find people that understand.
Like like sometimes I wanted to invite friends around, but all I
wanted them to do was just sit there on the bed, which felt
really weird. So I never did.
But perhaps I could have done that and reached out.
But I think in terms of mindset, what my book is about and that
story and what it comes down to is for me was taking, giving up
some of the control about what I thought my life was going to be
like. And I had it very much planned
out and my body, my health, it just didn't let me do that.
And that's where the a lot of the grief was, that gap between
what I thought I should have and what actually was happening.
And now I don't have that need to control the future.
And it's been amazing because things have happened beyond kind
of my wildest dreams. Like even when I moved to
Scotland, which wasn't that long ago, like less than two years,
I'm sort of OK, well, what do I do?
I don't want to do running coaching anymore because I don't
want to talk about running all the time because that's really
not making me better. So I sort of what can I do?
When I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that.
But actually once I just left myself open to thinking, I'll
just see what happens. I'll just kind of follow what I
like. I've ended up with a career I
could never have imagined of in politics, even though, like,
little me, that was what I said I was going to go into when I
was at school. So I think and then also just
the way that I can enjoy being outside, being in the mountains.
It doesn't look like what I imagined, but if once I gave
that up, I'd just enjoy it. It just is what it is.
And so I think long term, that's the mindset that's helped me
that I don't need to control, that I can just be open to
what's happening and being a bit more fluid rather than being
rigid. But I think if it's somebody
that's feeling really lost and feeling really dark, whether
it's through illness or other things, it's not going to be
helpful for me going well, just give up your plans or surrender
to the universe. Like that's not helpful.
I think you've really got to acknowledge what you're feeling
and not trying to push that away because it is it is hard and
it's tough and it's some of the toughest things that I've gone
through, but it's also led to some of the most interesting
rich things as well. So wouldn't take it away.
Like maybe I could have, maybe I could have got there a bit
quicker maybe. But you know, you just have to
accept that that's that's my story and that's what happened.
So I guess, yeah, that would probably be my answer.
But it's hard. Like everybody's so different.
And like I'm always really careful when people say, well,
what I've got my health back and I don't have fatigue now I am in
great health and people are like, well, how did what worked
for you? And it's like, well, what works
for me doesn't necessarily work for everybody at all.
So I'm very careful not to not to say this is what you need to
do. This is what's going to help you
because we're all so different. But I can just say this is
what's helped me. And I hope that somebody either
finds some comfort that there's somebody that's got through it,
or that it gives them some hope that at some point their path
will go that way too. And you said there about getting
getting to your destination quicker, getting through
everything a bit quicker. But it's about the journey.
It's not about the time that you do it in.
And yeah. There was, I can't stress
enough, Mike. There was a lot of crime,
obviously. I know and like, what is the
destination? There's only one destination
that we're all guaranteed of, isn't it?
Yeah, well, it's you want that to be as far away as possible.
It's all the journey and I think like, yeah, I can say that I'm
not in the dark place that I was at the end of the book, but also
I'm not at the final destination.
I'm just kind of enjoying it and seeing what happens.
And I'm sure if, you know, we had this conversation in five
years time, there'd be completely different answers
that have found something else, sort of got on with those
projects or done something else, you know, like it's life just
keeps moving and that's what makes it so interesting.
We should do that, Mike, in five years.
Go through all your guests. We'll book.
We'll book you in five years, and that's the same question.
I'm still too busy. No, I haven't done that one.
And the podcast is still on pause.
Yeah. Everything's still on pause.
I'm still working. Well, I, I, I think that the key
that we've taken away from tonight is enjoy it.
Yeah, whatever. Whatever it is, just enjoy it.
And I've enjoyed this episode. So all I can say is thank you,
Jen, for coming on. Thank you, Nikki, for being
Nikki. And it's goodbye for me.
Thanks for coming on, Jen. Oh.
You're welcome. Thank you so much, lovely to
chat.