Hi and welcome back to Run Till You're Done.
Tonight I am joined by former Scottish Athletics chair,
current British Athletics Chair and the West West Island Way
race director. For quite a long time since I've
been involved anyway, or I think I got involved at the
transition, but we'll talk about that later.
So welcome Ian BE MB E. Thanks very much, Mike.
It's nice to be here. We'll, we'll get we'll jump
straight in and what's is your how did you get started in
running or sport athletics? Well, I'd always done sport
throughout school and football was my main thing and I played
golf in my teens as well. But as I went through uni, I, I
had a, I decided I wanted to do football refereeing and I did my
qualification and things and started, started thinking about
would I, would I referee in leagues?
And I realized I'd lost an awful lot of fitness in the three or
four years I've been working. So I started running really to
get fit to allow me to referee football.
And so, so I referee Ayrshire amateur football for a couple of
seasons while I was running with Troon Tortoise, the local club
at that time. And what I found was I really
enjoyed the running side, enjoyed the racing, enjoyed the
challenge, enjoyed the people. And I found the football
refereeing was just like, it was like working an extra day every
week, not just the game, but then the paperwork of having to
report yellow cards, red cards, all this kind of thing.
So, so I gave that up and just stuck with the running and, and
that was me, I was really into it.
I love, I've always loved racing.
I've loved, I've loved even the challenge.
The sessions on a Thursday night we used to go and six of us were
about the same standard and along the front of train wind
towing, trying to trying to beat each other up along the front.
Great fun. So that was that was my
background too. And that's a until until a few
years ago. I've been running ever since.
So do you still, I guess, if you're not running at the
moment, do you still have an involvement with your club?
Not really I've I've changed club a number of times as I've
moved house. I've tended to to go to the
local clubs. I was a member to Tortoises for
about 13 years and then I and I joined Central for a while when
we were in Falkirk. Good club and still a lot of
friends there. Moved further north.
I was a member of Strathairn Harriers.
I joined Harmony when we moved to Edinburgh.
I had a short spell at Portobello, then back to
Harmony. So I'm still a member of
Harmony. But see, I'm not, I'm not
running now so. So I don't really see them as
much, but I keep my membership going from.
I thought it was funny. You said that you didn't like
the paperwork involved in refereeing, but you're an
accountant by trade and you're a race director, so it's kind of,
it goes part and partial, doesn't it?
Well it does and I do think it will be the paperwork and the
admin and the bureaucracy that makes me decide at some stage in
the future. I've had enough of the the West
Tail and waste stuff. It does.
It certainly increased a lot. But we try and keep it as light
touch as we as we can while still being bit safe and making
sure we've got the right processes and procedures.
But it wasn't great fun if you had a if you had a sort of
Ayrshire local Derby and had about 10 cautions and then the
old days you didn't just tick a box, you to write a report of
each one and what happened and what the person did and could
take you all Saturday night as well.
It wasn't. It wasn't the best.
Well, I guess in the amateur leagues you wouldn't have VAR.
What do you see technology wise, things like that in running,
what have you got? Anything that you would see.
I, I think it's developed hugely since I started.
I mean, people forget now when you talk about it.
We didn't have GPS ES. I spent probably the first,
certainly 10 years, maybe 15 years of my time running with no
GPS ES. You just had to sort of look at
the map and work out how far you were running and you, you judged
your pace. You got to know your pace.
I could come out, come back and say I know I was running 640
fives there that so therefore take for an hour.
That was however much eight mile run or whatever, seven and a
half mile run. And that's the way I've always
filled out my training diary. So that's, that's quite a recent
innovation. And and you did get some
horrendously short courses and nobody was able to really
challenge them because nobody knew people could challenge all
of that. Now that's been a big
breakthrough. The, the whole thing for race
organizations so much easier now where in the old days we used
to, used to send, fill out a paper form, you sent a cheque,
you got you, you left put in a stamped addressed envelope and
you got the results back a few weeks later.
And you know, you compare it to now with the online stuff, it's
just so much easier and actually also easier for the race
directors because you get the money upfront.
The ultra world, there's much more demand.
It's just much, much easier. I think for everybody.
Technology has made a made a huge difference there.
I I guess you would have seen this more than me, but the first
first year for the remember the Hive and Fling I I could have
entered on the day if that was the case and then it just
exploded after that. Yeah, Well, I did the first Tail
and Fling in 2006 and there were seventeen of us.
I think maybe 18 started and 17 finished and then we all had a
beer and hotel and taint drum and then we just went home.
The train, that was it. There was a very simple race
that was the concept and I think it went to about 80 the next
year and just really took off after that.
So there's been a huge explosion, which is is great to
see. And I, I, Sandra and I often
see, you know, we looked down lists of the likes of Glen Ogle
at the weekend and we don't actually recognize a lot of the
names because we're a bit away from it.
But I think that's good. People are coming through and
enjoying it the same way, same way we I've enjoyed all of my
running career. Yeah, I was just looking up,
it's try to look up how many started the fling the first year
that I did it. But it was, I'm sure it was
about 100. And I was just talking to
somebody the other day and they're saying how iconic things
like the the red carpet of the finish are.
I was like, well, that didn't exist.
You you got to the crossroads at Brodie's and that was it.
Yeah, it's all, it's all different.
And the evolved red carpets become a big feature.
And, but it's, it's only in relatively recent years it's
finished inside, by the way, because there was a few years at
finishing the road outside there I remember as well.
And, and these races have to evolve to, to cope with the
demand. We've had to do that in the West
Tail and where they swear the finish has changed And, and my
time has race directed as well. It's it's, it just makes it more
suitable for the numbers and the people that are coming through.
Hey Gordon, when did you start? Well, when did you start
running? It was 1990 I started running
and just towards the the back end of 1990 and I'd I actually,
that's not even strictly true. I ran a couple of marathons when
I was at uni, ran one when I was 18 and ran one when I was 19,
the one when I was 18, both Glasgow.
First one 1984. I trained properly all summer,
really comfortable run 335 or something.
I thought that was great and then decided to do it the next
year with a pal. Did no training at all when I
run on the Monday before it of eight miles and said well if we
could do 8 miles we could probably do 26.2.
And I don't think I've ever been as sore in my life.
I was sore for about a week after that, but then I had a bit
of a gap. So I I look on sort of late
1990s when I started and sort of took it up and I had about 30
years of running all sorts of races and all sorts of events
during that. During that time, what would you
say is your your biggest achievement that.
You've had, I probably remember most my fastest races, my best
ones. I did quite a lot of marathons
and a half marathons, but I never really, I never really
took much prayed to the wrong word.
I never really took much satisfaction from the fact I'd
done a lot because I think you can run a lot, you just slow
down. I always took more satisfaction
from the ones I did well and I think I'd I'd a spell roundabout
1996 to 98 when I set all my PBS.
I set APB of a 11751 for 1/2 marathon, which was I was
pleased with 59 O 7 for a 10 mile 3511 for a 10K.
So I was really pleased with all of them.
I just never felt I quite nailed the marathon.
I should have been made. My best had five marathons below
2 below 3 hours and my best was 256.
But I did feel when I was running this 117 half, there was
a kind of potential for a sub 250.
But it's it's one thing feeling it and it's another thing doing
it and I never, I never did that.
So these were probably the the things I look back on the
greatest satisfaction, my West Island where he finishes, I
always enjoyed. Again, I look at that and I
think when I see the times people are doing now and the way
they're training, I think, I wonder if I'd been training in
this environment where there's much more, many more people
going out and doing it. I might have been a bit faster,
but you always got a great sense of satisfaction finishing that
race as well. Yeah, I I guess there's always
the what if I did this? But it doesn't matter.
What if you did it? That is what you did so.
Exactly. And often think one of the
reasons I stopped running was because of my heart that as as
you know, and heart issues, and I often say sort of jokingly, if
I did the new super shoes and a decent heart, who knows, I might
have been these these Olympic athletes I'm looking at that I
might have been running alongside them.
So you just never know. You've just got it.
You've just got to do what you do.
And yeah, you know, a lot of people say if I hadn't the one
that the one that always makes me laugh is people who run, run
and say if I hadn't done that 30 mile or last week, I would have
been a lot quicker. I think well don't the taper
properly. Too your own fault you you knew
your race is coming up. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Rob who, you know, I've, I've
run with him a lot and there's a lot of things that oh, you
shouldn't be doing that. You should be doing this, but
no, he that's what he does and he's got the record.
So how, how can we criticize what he's doing?
Because nobody else has done it faster so.
Yeah, that's right. There's there's some people
though, I think if you look at the fast, the fast folk, they
know, they know how to train and they know how to train
specifically in peak for races. They're very good at that.
And I've always been really impressed with Debbie Martin
Kasani in that respect. Debbie, and I hope I'm not
jinxing Debbie doesn't really have bad races because she
trains properly. She doesn't sort of go out and
race every week. She, she sets out a races, goes
out and trains. I'm sure Rob's the same and
you've been the same when you've done that.
And, and if, if people just like racing, get out and be part of
the company, that's fine. But you can't really turn around
and say, why am I not getting faster?
So you've got to, you've got to cover properly is one of the
things I've seen from the, the, the real top athletes, the
Olympic athletes, they take three weeks off after the season
and they, they don't do anything.
They're recovering to come back so they can load properly again
and I'm a big believer. I think rest is underrated
amongst the amateur runners. We just keep doing it non-stop,
never have a break at all and wonder why we don't get any
better. Yeah, I I had a race, it's been
13 days now since I was racing and I've run once in that.
So that's I'm forcing myself to not do anything so.
Yeah, supported one of the West Taylor Manish Sandra that I was
helping her with and coaching her towards.
And I said the first thing we're going to do is have a two week
break. And she looked at me at the
beginning of January because you've just not had a break for
a long time. And I want you get into this
training session really, really fresh because it's going to get
quite intense and quite. And she did that.
I think she managed 10 days before she went back out
running. But she feed it made her body
fresh before she started and and she ran our best time that year,
which I think was significant. So on.
You're saying that you're not running anymore because of
health issues. Do you do?
Do you do any other exercise? Well, I do, I do a lot of
walking. I've since I've since I've had
the health issues, I've kind of set myself a target.
I've tried to walk 10,000 steps every day and I've done that now
for about coming up to three years.
So I've not missed a day. It's actually quite useful,
particularly I work quite a lot from home.
So it gets you, I find it, it forces me out the door.
I tend to walk for an hour in the morning, clear the head a
bit, which is good. I've also in the last few years,
particularly last two years, I've got much more into golf
again, which I hadn't really played a lot of since I was my
teens. And I'm really enjoying that
because it gives me the exercise but also gives you the
challenge. It's like it's got to, you've
got to think it through and puzzle it out and some days it
doesn't go well and I really like that.
I kind of The Walking you don't, you don't get that you're just
walking rather than have this, this sporting challenge.
But so say they're the they're the main 2 at the moment playing
a lot of golf actually. And I'm just taking invites of
people say, people say, do you want a game?
Here's it. I could fit it and go there and
go there. So I played, I played something
like over 30 different courses this year, including my own,
just getting out and trying to do that and it's been great.
It's thuddling seen some lovely places and played some really
really nice nice courses not getting.
Much better. Is there any courses that you
think I would love to run here? Well, do you know, funnily
enough, funnily enough, I spent a lot of my time in Troon
running on Royal Tune. So I feel I know Royal Tune,
although I've never played golf on it because it's quiet.
That was one of our roots and also Western Gales, which goes
up to Irvine. There's a sort of what we up the
dunes up there. So I've already spent quite a
lot of time running in these golf courses that and they make
they make cracking sessions because the surface is different
trail up and down as well. So yeah, and often often enjoyed
enjoy doing that. Right.
Again, getting back to formal things, Scottish athletics was
your your former role. I would say job is not a job
because you're, you're an accountant for Lindsay's, but
you, you were chair of Scottish athletics.
What did that involve? Well, the chair rogue's a non
executive 1. So my role is really to lead the
sport but offer support to the chief executive.
That's the kind of key thing. So to work on the strategy for
the sport and I think I, I worked with 3 chief executives
sort of, they're all all very good and very strong.
And what we were totally focused on was a strategy of trying to
focus on club development through the clubs and, and work
with the clubs. And we had some, some brilliant
success, a lot of great work across the Scottish club, some
really good people within the clubs.
And, and we recognize that as a small governing body of about 30
people at the most, most of whom weren't full time, there's a
limit to what you can do. But if you can help provide
support, guidance to the thousands who are in clubs all
across Scotland, you start to achieve great things.
And I think I think we've seen that.
I think the Scottish club structure is the envy of
certainly the envy of the rest of the UK is, is fantastic.
And I was at AI, was at a Scottish athletics event at the
weekend across country at Kirkcaldy.
And just the, the camaraderie that way, everybody works
together, it's fantastic. I really like going to these
events and to see it. So that that was our main focus.
But there's also this of being the leader of the sport, leading
the leading the board, making the decisions that need to be
made. There's the admin side of that.
So there's all the accounts signing off and and so on.
We had to see the sport through COVID, which was challenging
and, but, but I think it was all about setting a culture where
everybody felt part of something that was really important.
And members of Scottish athletics watching Laura Muir
winner our Olympic medal in, in, in Tokyo and thinking she's one
of ours. I'm part of that and I, I love
that. I love that, that everybody's
very much in together. I think that we we managed to
get that culture working really well.
How do you find? How do you think things have
changed from before COVID to now?
Not, not meaning how, how did you cope with COVID because
that's a whole other story, but how?
How's it changed since? I think I think the sport's kind
of getting back to know where it is.
I think there was a bit of a drop off in the early days of
numbers entering races across the whole of the UK and I think
that's because people had got used to doing their own
challenges. So they'll think about, I can
actually go and run marathon distance and I'll just do it in
my garment and I don't need to pay money to enter a race.
But I think that's changing. I, I think the trends and
whether it's COVID related or not, Mike, I don't know.
But I think there's been a almost a flight to quality.
I think the really good events are getting more and more
popular. People want to do the really
good events, but if events maybe not quite at that standard,
different scale folk aren't doing the same.
So the likes of the London Marathon retains its popularity,
the likes of our W Tail and Various retains its popularity.
Loads of others fling you mentioned earlier on hugely
popular, but maybe some of the smaller races have been finding
it a bit more difficult and part runs made a difference.
That too because people can go and do a time 5K every Saturday
morning, whatever they want. So it's kind of taking the
market away for the more traditional club type 5 and 10
KS, I think. I've heard that fact.
If you want to call that about Park Run it, It has increased
the participation, but it's decreased people going to races
because they're getting it for free.
So why wouldn't? You.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
And I, I noticed that in days like the the days of the
Scottish National Cross Country Championship at Falkirk in
February. To me, that's one of the one of
the best days in the athletics calendar.
If if people haven't been there, I would say go along and run and
it's a fantastic experience to be national championship.
It's tough cross country stuff, but that that was one of the
pinnacles of the season. But you do sometimes go on
Facebook and you see people are not doing the cross country.
I'm doing a park run here and I think I, I just, I mean, folk
are free to do what they want and all the rest, but I think
they're missing out on that formal part of particularly
these events like that which are, are really special.
I think it up a great part of what we're all about.
Yeah, your your role in Scottish athletics.
I would say obviously successful because you went on and are
currently with British Athletics.
When I was doing doing my research, what's what's the
difference between British athletics and UK Athletics?
Are they the same thing? They're pretty much the same
thing. We've moved now more to UK
Athletics as as the brand. There's always been a bit of,
you know, what should it be And British Athletics became the,
the sort of brand and UK Athletics was the formal part
which the company was called and it just didn't really make a lot
of sense. So we've really been branding
very much UK Athletics now it's a bit fairer to the Northern
Ireland athletes as well because the the British part doesn't
include them and they are technically within within the
whole. So, so yeah.
So UK Athletics sits alongside Scottish athletics, England
athletics, Welsh athletics and Athletics Northern Ireland.
I think sometimes people think God sits on top and controls
them. But we're all organisations in
their own right and we all work closely together.
And the bit that UK Athletics does is the top end stuff.
So we do Olympics, World Championships, World Paras,
Paralympics and so on, World class program we manage, but
really the vast majority of the sport happens at the England
Athletics, Scottish athletics, Welsh Athletics level and so on
because that's the club piece, that's the development piece and
where where that all happens. But it's really important that
we work together and there's one pathway coming through.
So we try and do that and we now get the chairs of each of the
the home countries on the UK Athletics board to try and make
make sure we are much more joined up than we've possibly
been in the past. And is there, what are you voted
into that? Is it a chosen job interview
type thing? How do you?
Get yeah, yeah, I know it was an it was an application, an
interview process to get that, that role.
So. And it's been quite it's been
quite difficult. UK Athletics wasn't in the
wasn't in the best position and it's been quite, it's been a bit
of a turn around, but I think we're making good progress.
It's encouraging to see. I've I've been working with
brought in a new chief executive, Jack Buckner.
He's been there over two years now.
We've got a chief operating officer, very strong legal
brain, Tom Solsbury, new finance person.
So it's a bit of a slimmed down organization, but really good
people and focusing on what we do.
The events side. We, we do events as well, the
Diamond Leagues, one of our old events, but we've this year put
that into a joint venture with London Marathon and Great Run.
So we're all, we've all got a thought of that now in terms of
the events that we do. And that's been good as well
that the idea being it'll make it more attractive working with
these partners to sponsors, broadcasters and so on.
So, so yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been good.
I mean, I've been lucky enough to go to some great places for
the events in Paris twice this summer for the Olympics and
Paralympics. It was in Budapest the year
before for the World Championships.
And I was, I was a joint chair of the steering group for the
Glasgow World Indoors, which was a real good experience as well.
Quite nice having one in your doorstep to travel to.
But so it's been, it's been a fantastic experience looking
back and all of that that has been quite hard work in terms of
restructuring the organization and sort of trying to make it
more financially secure. Is it a a time frame for your
role or is it like a like a job you're ongoing until you're not?
I, I'm, I'm appointed for four years.
I've, I've done just over three now.
So I've got one year of this term and then the potential to
be appointed for a second four year term.
So everything, everything going well, I'll be in post until 2029
would be when I would finish from that.
I think, and I'm not going to count my chickens because at
that elite level of sport, things can change very quickly.
But I think it's, I think it's good to get stability.
Athletics in the UK hasn't had much stability.
Senior levels have been a lot of change of chairs and chief execs
and so on. So I think it's good to get the
stability And so, and I think the board of that view.
So certainly I would if, if asked, I'd be very happy to stay
on the next four years as well. Good.
And do you have a a goal or multiple goals of what you would
want to achieve either within this in the next year or within
your five years, hopefully? I think I think some of our
direct goals, there's the goals that we can achieve within UK
Athletics and there's the goals that we can achieve working with
the sport as a whole, which is particularly in England given
it's so big. And I think on our side, UK
Athletics, the first goal is to get us back to being profitable
and that's really through attracting more commercial
interest into the organization through the joint venture that
we've now got in place. And we're on, we're making good
progress towards that. We're going to report our
results in the next couple of weeks and we're moving in the
right direction, which is good. I think in terms of this, this
the performance side, we've actually two really, really
successful championships at world level.
We, we, we get 10 medals in the Olympics in Paris, which that's
the best we've done since 1984. And we get 10 medals in Budapest
in the world as well, which I think shows it wasn't just a
flash in the pan. So we want to continue to see
athletes come through, come into our system, be well looked
after, capable of winning medals at the Olympics.
But the key bit for the sport as a whole like this is across the
whole of the UK is to get more and more people coming through.
People come in at the bottom, get a great experience through
the clubs and can develop all the way through.
And, and that's across all disciplines as well.
It's not just the running events, it's the the field to
where we've not been as strong. Traditionally a lot of our
success has been either in sprints or in middle distance
running. It's it's hard to think of many
field athletes who have done well.
We've we've had a very successful hip athlete obviously
medal but we we don't have the same depth there and that that's
a challenge for the sport too. You, you obviously are
athletics, things like the Olympics.
How do you work with the committee for there's lots of
different sports that wouldn't fall under athletics?
How are you involved in that part?
Well, the Olympics, the the team that goes to the Olympics is
actually selected by the British Olympic Association.
It's all, it's a bit like the Commonwealth Games when it, it's
a Team Scotland team and the athletics body proposes the
team. I mean it's normally accepted
but it is a British Olympic Association team.
So our role is really to nominate and put forward and
then provide the staff, the support staff who'll be in the
village and the coaches and the nutritionists and everybody
who's who's around that. So we we work quite closely with
our partners. But The funny thing was when I
was out in Paris, you just become submerged in your own
sport. I think it's because athletics
is so big. I was at something, I think 17
different athletic sessions and I I kind of lost track of the
other sports that were going on at all.
A couple of receptions with my counterparts from other sports,
but you don't really see that much of them within there even
though you are all part of the same Team GB.
The things like the Commonwealth Games that is now coming to
Glasgow, is it this year or next year, How involved in that will
you be? It will be sort of on the edge
of that. That's, that's organized by
Commonwealth Games Scotland are probably the lead body working
with Glasgow Life and Commonwealth Games Federation.
It'll be a Scottish, English, Welsh and Irish team rather than
a British team. So we won't be part.
But, but because of the nature of it and I, I know the, I know
Ian Reed very well. He's the the main guy
Commonwealth Games Scotland and we'll work closely.
The the other thing that's important we work closely is
that immediately after the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow,
we've got a European Athletics Championships in Birmingham in
2026. So they'll be within a sort of
three or four week window. And I think it's really
important for both the Commonwealth Games and the
European Championships that we make sure it's managed well and
athletes get the right chance to.
You're never going to get a marathon runner or run both of
these. There's not a marathon in
Glasgow but some of the longer distance race is more difficult
but we want the athletes to be able to take part in both if at
all possible. So that comes down to the
scheduling of programs and all the rest of it.
So I'm I'm sure we'll be working very closely with the
Commonwealth Games people. What?
What time of year are they both on it?
The the Glasgow Commonwealth Games is the end of July and
then Birmingham Europeans is the beginning of August.
So you'll have a lot of lot of work beforehand because you'll
be prepping for West Island Wave, which is longest day in
June. So talking about prep, when,
when does prep start for a race like that?
It kind of goes on throughout the whole year.
There's, I mean, if you, if you take the cycle, the race has
just finished. Usually by the time I go home,
I've provisionally booked the the leisure centre at the
finish. I've sort of got that in the
diary. You've said, I've said to the
timing people about the date for the next year.
So we've said to the the church we use at the church hall at the
start, we've kind of got that book.
So you've already kicked the thing off.
And then we have, we have two or three months where we have a bit
of a downtime, a bit of rest and then get ready for the whole
thing starting again. And with the entries opening in
November, that's now you mentioned earlier on technology.
That's now quite an easy process because the technology makes
that all so easy. But you still got to do a bit of
testing. And then we'll have this month
where people can enter all of the entries are reviewed by by
Keith Hughes. He goes through them all and
they checks everybody's done what they need to do.
And then we'll have the ballot early December, let people know.
And from then on, it's just different bits and pieces of
getting everything, everything ready ends up taking off all the
different bits and getting the permit and getting their, the
approvals you need to do and, and working our way through
that. So it's not, we've got a great
group of volunteers, all of whom know, know their own bits, know
what they do quite well. So it doesn't fall massively on
me, to be honest. I, I tend to deal with the, the
runners and the money. I look after the money.
But, but we've got look after all the other areas as well and
they're able to get on with that.
We maybe have two or three online meetings a year just to
check in really where we're all at.
And it's worked, it works well. People.
I, I worry every year before the start of it, is this going to be
the year for don't want to do it anymore.
And then this year it was, there was something like 270 entries
and day one. It was remarkable.
Actually, it gets more and more popular every year.
You obviously, you say you've got a team behind you.
It's not just you, it's the this teamwork makes the dream work,
as they say. Yeah.
And, and I think we're, I think you were really good at that.
We've got Sean who does all the medical stuff with Becks and
that works really well. John and Helen, the volunteer
side, they look after that. It's great.
Adrian looks after all the merchandising side, which is his
backdrop. Sandra does the social media,
you know, everybody does their own wee bit.
And it just makes it easier for, for us all that nobody's getting
burdened with the whole thing, which would be quite a big job.
I, I kind of keep an overview of it and there's bits of that with
against this sort of intangible, but really trying to keep the
culture of the race and the family feel is really important.
And that doesn't just happen by itself.
You've got to can sometimes work at that, make sure if there's
any online squabbles are taken down and just just making sure
that it all works and there's a bit of leadership from it as
well, which I think is important.
You said say part of your Scottish athletics role was
making them profitable. How?
How does things like cost rate? Races are not cheap to either to
enter or I'm sure they're not cheap to put on.
How is things divvied up? You're obviously paying for
halls, you're paying for tracking systems.
What other big costs are there? Well, we've, we've got costs the
likes of the goblets for the prizes is quite a big expense.
Although all of these would get helped by the people.
Glen Care and are are fantastic. Ron Hill have been big
supporters to us. So that helps when things like
race garments and so on that we do.
Yeah, it's premises accommodation.
We give a donation to for the upkeep of the trail that we
think is quite important that we, we make a contribution
towards that. And we've got all our ongoing
admin costs of safety costs. We hire 2 boats usually for Loch
Lomond. We've got safety teams out and
about. So we, we always, we always seem
to break even as, as we're not a commercial organization, we want
to break even with that. And the other thing we've been
quite clear of over the years is we don't want to become
dependent and sponsorship income that might disappear and then
give us a problem. So, so it's pretty much self
funding that try and keep the entry fee as low as we can.
I think we're 135 lbs this year, 137 unaffiliated, nothing.
I think compared to other events that rates quite highly for what
people get, but that'll cover the cost and we've got a wee bit
in reserve. If we end up having two course
records, that'll be an extra £3000 will be, I would love to
see it, but we haven't had to pay out one yet since we
introduced it. So, so it's it, it more or less
breaks even. We also we also the
merchandising, but we do helps subsidise a bit the cost as
well. Oh yeah, I was looking at some
previous podcasts that I've seen you on and Sabrina Virgie was
asking for a a place I was back in COVID times.
Any word from her now that the race has opened up again?
I've, I've not heard from her. Yeah, no, I, I just tend to just
have a look from time to time to see if anybody's, if anybody's
come along and entered. And and it it would, it would be
nice to see, it'd be nice to see challenges for both the male and
the female records, that the female record stood for a long,
long time. And it's testament to Lucy going
what a great runner she was at a time when ultra running wasn't
as popular that nobody, nobody's actually even got particularly
close to it. It's not been, it's not been a a
close run thing yet. And I think we do feel that the
scope for someone, one of the top female runners to come along
do that. I think Rob's is maybe more
challenging, you know interest and see if anybody can can get
near that again. Well, I can say that for for
Rob's I, I, I'll take full credit.
It was nothing to do with his running.
He's yeah, that's easy. But I set out his plan and his
his plan was pretty much spot on for where I set it and I know
that he can take time off that. So I'll be nice to see, nice to
see. We'll we'll see some of some of
the other ones when you're away on events.
I heard your name drop in Paula Radcliffe before.
Any update on her whether she's going to enter the race or not?
She never really shown a great deal of interest.
We, we did have one night at the Scottish Athletics dinner where
my, my last memory before I went to bed was Sandra in the bar
with Joe Pavey trying to persuade her to come along and
do the West Island race. And she remembered, actually I
saw Joe in the Diamond League London and she, she remembered
it, but hasn't, hasn't shown any great interest to come in.
I mean, I would love to see what happened if one of our kind of
real top track runners during runners had a had a go and what
they could do. And I mean, there's much to see
how, how good is Rob's time? How good is Lucy's time?
Some comparison because you know, if I, I don't know if a
Callum Hawkins said I'm going to train for the next six months to
do the West Highland areas. What could, what could some an
athlete like that who's clearly a one of our top, one of our
best of our Scottish endurance runners, what could they do?
I don't think we'll see it, but it would be fascinating if we
did. Yeah, I, I guess it's difficult
sometimes when training for the West Island way, that's
basically taking your whole year out to train for it, where say
1/2 marathon, you're probably doing other races during that
time. So you're almost saying you're
not taking the whole year out because you're doing the other
races, but there's only certain races you can do when you're
training for almost 100 miles. Yeah, yeah.
And the real, the top, the guys at the top end up get the same
issues that they're getting paid by sponsors to go to the UT, MB
S and the other big races that they're sponsoring.
So that will always affect our field.
But having said that, we've had some really top quality runners
of from the West Hailey Way over the years and and it's great to
see when they do come along. Yeah, you're saying people get
sponsored. The race is obviously sponsored.
Do you want to shout out who who they are and what sort of
involvement they have within the West family?
Yeah, our, our, our key sponsor has been involved for around 20
years, has been Ron Hill. Ron Hill have been, have been
really supportive to us and and their brand fits quite well.
They're quite understated. They don't insist we put big
adverts up in, in Glencoe and things like that.
They're just quite happy to be part of the community.
So they've been great. Glencare and Crystal have been
very supportive for many years as well with the goblets.
They they subsidized them heavily has been, has been first
class and we got a lot of help from other other smaller peers
that say that the Real Food Cafe in Tandrum is always very
helpful. A we, we just, we just got a lot
of support from local, local businesses and local people that
we do. So that's been that's been the
main sponsors. Ron Hill particularly would I
would single out. You're one of the you're race
director for one of the biggest races in the UKI would say.
But being so high up in British athletics, it's probably what's
more stressful, British athletics or being a race
director. I, I don't, I don't really find
the race director a bit stressful at all.
I, I find it one, I love the West tail and race weekend.
It's one that's my favorite weekend of the year.
It's great out there, you know, getting, getting late at 3:00 in
the morning, being out in Balmaha.
I just love it. Then same it in the same and at
the other end next day. And we've just got such a good
team that the race day itself isn't particular if everything
goes OK, it's not particularly stressful.
This year we had one a bit of thinking to do because of the
there was a fatal accident sadly in Glen Cohen.
So we had to think our way through how we would deal with
that, the communication. But it all worked from our race
point of view really quite well. And, but I mean, ultimately,
Mike, if, if we didn't have something like that, the race
could go ahead if I wasn't there, which is the way it
should be. It's, it's, it's not dependent
on me being around. And that means I can, I can
enjoy it. I can kind of spend some time at
the finish and the team all know what they're doing and I can
spend some time down. It can luckily even and just be
keeping an eye on things that need to be done.
So, so it's very different. I mean the the UK Athletics role
is much more sort of I suppose. Higher profile, you tend to get
more criticism and depressed for things people have got a view.
It's it's I, I do probably look on that as work.
It's a job. It's, it's, it takes up quite a
bit of time and you know, we're, we're trying to work through the
financial side and, and the performance side and all the
rest of it. So, so I'm sure that's a bit
more stressful. They've always taken the view.
There's really I tend not to get overly stressed about these
things because you you can't. If you can't control something,
there's no point. And worrying about it has always
been my view for these. You've obviously got teams
behind you and teams of volunteers for West Haven Way.
How does somebody get involved with the race?
How do they volunteer for it? The we've got an online
volunteer portal, so if you keep an eye on the the website or the
Facebook page that that'll open up once we've got all the
entries sorted out. So it'll probably be in January.
So if people want to volunteer, please, please stick your
details in details of your experience and, and we'll, John
and Helen, I'll get back. We do tend to be, I mean, it's
remarkable actually. We do tend to be oversubscribed
for the volunteers too, which is incredible.
People just want to be part of the event and they want prepared
to give up the weekend to volunteer, which I'm always in
awe of. It's a it's a great crowd and
really adds to the whole the whole atmosphere of the race.
I guess it's it's no bad thing that you get too many people.
You you want that? It's.
Yeah, and we can usually use people.
So we try and we try and offer support to the overseas runners
in particular who find it more difficult to get crew.
So people can do that. That's great.
And I know, I know some of the volunteers have made lifelong
friendships through that from looking after athletes have come
over. It's a really nice bit of the
race and there's lots of other rogues as well.
So yeah, so please, if if you're interested, stick your details
in it. It's and I'd say particularly if
it's a race that you've got ambitions sometime the future to
run, it's a really good way of getting a feel for what it's all
about. And you'll you'll know from your
time up in Jelly Baby Hill, you see an awful lot of it and you
get a real good idea of what you need to do to take partners.
First time I tried to run it, I'd never really seen it.
I just turned up but no idea what I was doing and I think you
would learn a lot from either crewing, supporting, or
volunteering on it. So when was the first time you
were involved in the race? My my first attempt was in 1998
and that was the first year I tried to run it.
I I dropped out at Tain Drum. I just was completely
unprepared. Done most of my trained the road
and I went away. I supported some in 1999 and I
came back in 2000 much better trained, much better prepared
and with a very different mindset of what I was going to
do in 1990. I was just about, oh, can I
finish this? I came back in 2000 with no, I
can do this and I can do it in under 24 hours.
So some respects, I think I'm pleased that I wonder if I'd
finished it in 1990, if I just have thought that was me kind of
30 hours and never get any better than that.
Instead, I had to go back to the drawing board and look at how to
do it differently. How many times have you done it
since? I finished it 8 times and I had
well at 1998, I didn't finish it.
I didn't finish. I dropped out one year in 2008,
which was a disaster. I just don't know what was wrong
that day. And the last year when I was
involved in the organizing, I, I was also running, but to be
honest, my head just wasn't in it.
I got to, I got to Victoria Bridge, that sort of area beyond
Bridge of Orkin. I just, I was, I was more
interested in what was happening, the finishing.
I said I'm just going to pack it and I could have finished that
one, I think. But just so it's three very
different DNFS as well as the finishes.
Do you think if you weren't, if for some reason you weren't the
race director as of you jacked it in the the summer that was
the last one you're doing, would you do the race again?
I, I, I, I, I think I would say absolutely not.
In fact, every year, I, I, I watch the people coming in and I
think, I, I don't stand there and think, I wish I was running
this. I stand there and think how
enough did I manage to do this eight times?
Is, it's, it's so difficult. And we, we walked the West
telomere with friends and one of the COVID years just at one of
the gaps, the windows that we had, we walked in five days.
And our second day from Balmaha to Ben Glass farmer.
It was, it was really tricky. It was quite a hot day.
And we were all saying, how did three of us had run, three of
the four of us who were walking at all run it.
And we were like, can't believe how we managed to run this.
So, So no, I'm quite happy and I don't feel any, any regret at
all. I think I've had my time, happy
to see new people come through and.
Do you think that your job as an accountant, your involvement,
various athletics bodies, has that influenced how you prepared
for the race? Yeah, I think it's I think it's
down to what it helps because the whole everything about the
races, we want to put on a quality experience that that
people think is special and we want to keep evolving the race.
We're not going to grow the numbers, we're not going to
cheat, but we want it to keep evolving so that it become it's
a race that it's on people's bucket lists to do.
And I think my experiences and, and others experiences all help
towards that. We all, we all want to put on
the best organized race that we can.
And I, I've run it and I know the things that you want to know
as a runner, things like, you know, getting clear instructions
before you start. You don't want to buy it.
You want clear race rules. You you want everything to be,
you know, to to be just done properly so that that's probably
helped with the whole organization, but it's quite a
different skill. Maybe they're just the sort of
getting on with people and knowing how to defuse situations
and when you have to deal with them as as hell because you do
get time to time, you get you get situations.
What I've liked is the way we've been able over the years to
bring on board things like the communities.
You know, if we've had any complaints I'll go and see them
and speak to them and I can quite off.
We've got, we've got one person who's now very much part of the
race who at first was watching it from the outside and you
know, if you can bring people in and work with the communities
then we're achieving something really good.
Things like going back to big names.
Do you think the race needs that attention?
No, I don't think it does. I don't think we do.
It's, it's, it's clear. It's still very popular.
We've got we've got a place and, and, and the ultra running
calendar. We always attract about 30
athletes from overseas. So about 10% of the field comes
from overseas. So people want to do it.
So no, I don't, I don't think we do.
And, and but it but it helps the prestige of the race.
I think to have big names and say we do get, we do get some
with how corner a few years ago you may remember come over and
that was quite, quite a great laugh with how he was, he was
brilliant. But people have heard of the
West Highland Way race and we've got we've got a great
relationship with the Western state to treat the West Highland
Way race as a qualifier for it. And yeah, it would be nice.
But if we don't, we don't. And the race is about the people
running it regardless of where they are in the field.
We don't need, we don't need the big names at the front.
Yeah, I guess it's good the race has got the reputation for
itself, not for who's run. Yeah, Yeah.
No, I think that's right. And it's, it's a, it's a
beautiful route. It's it's, it's tough, but
runnable, I think it's probably fair to say.
And yeah, you, you summed that up well.
It's been going a long time now and as a reputation for for what
it delivers. Yeah, question that I got asked
when I was getting interviewed was how many spreadsheets do I
have for a race? So I'm going to twist it.
How many spreadsheets do you have for if you were running the
race and how does that compare to your race directing
spreadsheets? I I probably did a lot more when
I was running it. One of the things, one of the
things I need to do this is this may horrify you, given my
background. I'm probably not the best
paperwork person, you know, I'm not a I'm not a sort of
procedures, manuals and all the rest I probably do need.
Every year I say I'm going to write down everything I do every
stage because an awful lot of this and in my head I do it at
the same time every year. You just work through.
I really should set down a big list.
So I don't have many spreadsheets for the race at
all. I'd much more when I was running
about where I wanted to be and what I wanted to do.
And since you've taken over the race, whether it's technology or
whatever, what's the biggest thing that you've seen change?
I think the equipment that the runners have, I think that's
probably from looking at it. If I say I was running up to
2009 was my last finish and then I, I 2010 was the first year I
was involved in the organizing of it.
The, the kit that people have has changed quite dramatically.
So the race vests are a big step forward.
The, the shoes are much better than they were.
The kind of just the various equipment when you, if you look
at an ultra runner out now in one of these runs, it's probably
not compatible to when, when, when I was doing it.
So that that's been a big, a big, big change.
I think there's unfortunately been a sort of increase in the
bureaucracy around organizing any event and we've tried quite
hard to sort of keep that sensible.
But there's things that you need to do now and you just, you
know, you just need to have and getting the approvals and
permissions and so on. That does make it a bit more
difficult. But I think I think we are quite
fortunate when the race takes place.
So the fact that starts at 1:00 in the morning, we're almost
undercover until the fields well spread out the next day.
And that that's made that aspect of a bit easier.
The parking is a challenge, always a challenge with the cars
and I I think the supports an important aspect of the race and
helps the family feel. But there's no doubt that that
part of it does does meet probably probably the hardest,
but actually for us making sure places for cars to go and don't
cause chaos and all the rest of it.
There's always things throughout the race that are changing, like
this year instead of going passed by the way you went to
the hotel in Tindrum and used the car park there.
Is there anything you can see changing in the years to come?
Stopping it, check. Stopping people going to
checkpoints or what change can you see happening?
I think we'll stick with the Taint Drum one.
I think that was a big success and not not only for the car
parking, but I, I would really like to see, I would like to see
Taint Drum as a village sort of all must have a W tail and way
day, a bit like some of the villages in the Alps do for UT
MB where they make it a big deal.
And the time that people come through Taint Drum works for
that because it's kind of all in daylight hours, the time they
come through. And they say that the Real Food
Cafe, I think is quite interested in that as well,
particularly as we're going right past our place now and all
the rest. So I could see us maybe do a bit
more of that and become more absorbed in the kind of
community. You could see maybe the same in
Kinloch leaving, although you don't want to be too involved
during the nights. There's there's nothing else
dramatically there. I think we'll just continue to
try and evolve and change things.
We had to change the finish a few years back to and that's
been a big success as well. Having more room at the at the
nervous center. It means we've got to finish the
prize giving all in one place. It's much better facility for
us, for people arriving as well. But we'll keep looking at things
like that now. You can see, I mean there there
will be pressure on some of the checkpoints, particularly
getting access to land. We've already had to change over
the last number of years, Ben Glass, where we can't like crew
in. It's just too dangerous trying
to get people on and off that road.
But we'll just keep looking at that and see what we can do.
I I guess things like that you can only change them as the as
the problems occur, you can't predict them.
No, no you can't. And and, you know, you could try
and look and see where, where, where do the issues arise and
what would we do about them? Somewhere like Line Co, car
parks, fantastic, loads of space, a big checkpoint, never
had any issues there. But there are points in the
route where it's a bit more difficult, a bit more
challenging, get folk in and out.
So we keep an eye on that, see what we can, we can do, yeah.
All right, thinking about the race, whether it's when you were
running it or when you've been resurrecting, what have you got?
One standout moment of the race that is your stand out memory
for. I probably get loads, but
there's one I remember one year I was, I was getting near the
end at Fort William and I'd come through.
It's all quite different because there used to be a lot of trees
as you come into Fort William. I mean the bit from London Fry
is now all cleared. But that, that was all forest
and my day. So your last section was got
dark quite early because you'd know natural lights the minute
the light went away start. So I was getting through there.
One year I had my head torch on. I come out to the hill at the
top where you see Fort William and I, I thought there's enough
light, they don't need my head torch.
And my head torch actually failed.
The batteries gave up. And George, who was supporting
me, his torch gave up at the same time, which was quite
bizarre. And I thought, that's fine, I
don't need to change the batteries, there's enough
natural light. The moon was quite bright, so
we're in down. And it was only when again I
realized I checked my batteries. I'd been carrying AAA batteries
and my torch to AA's the whole way through.
Could have been catastrophic if my torch had failed 15 minutes
earlier. I've been stumbling through that
forest, not able to see a thing. And I see you just remember
things like that. Absolutely basic schoolboy
errors. You think I've done this race
hundreds of times. I should know that I batteries
for my my head torch. So.
And there was one year as well, Fiona.
And he tells this story too, where we were running up between
Tyndham and Bridge of Orky and we were passed by all these
people and these these sort of individual scooter things
kicked. There was about 30 people coming
the other way towards time. Drum and I sort of put out my
mind and we all thought we'd been hallucinating, but turned
out it was part of the Caledonian challenge and it was
one of the sort of accessibility things they had to let people
who couldn't run on here. So they were they were all
there. That was a bit bizarre as well,
yeah. One of the memories I have, it's
not actually during the rest, it was in the the pub afterwards,
which is obviously a, a big family feel.
And I was sitting chatting to yourself and you said that you
saw me at Glencoe and I was running like I was going to win
it. And sorry, I haven't won the
race. I haven't done the race since
you said that. But I I've had influences on
people's races and Rob has won it.
So hope hopefully I've lived up to what you said.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's nice when I remember
saying to Rob when he left, he left wonderful saying, Rob,
you're on your way to make history.
And you wonder if there are not at that stage here, anything.
But you did comment afterwards that it gave him a wee bit of a
push, and it's nice when you think comments like that just
make a difference. No, it's been what, at least 10
years since I've done the race and I still remember that.
So it's influential people like that.
It's yes, they do make a difference.
Yeah, right. Going back to we've obviously
just had good things, bad things.
Is there anything that you would wish runners wouldn't do,
whether it's in the rules, whether you've told them not to
do it and they still do it, or do you want people stop it?
Yeah, I think, I think generally just want people to follow the
rules properly and to do it right and not not try and cut
corners that if we see runners who are quicker than 21 hours
haven't of support, don't try and push that by getting your
support to jump in for two miles when you think nobody can see
you. That's it's frustrating for
other runners. It's a bit disrespectful.
It's just a bit annoying. You do get it occasionally.
I mean, that's why I've had to introduce.
You can go 1/4 of a mile out and a quarter of a mile up to give
stuff over, but don't, don't try and don't try and squeeze these
or bend these rules are there for a good reason and part of
the challenge is doing it properly.
I think it's so so, yeah. But by and large that
everybody's great and so gets on well, We have very few problems.
It's a great crowd and everybody comes away enjoying it.
Yeah, you say part of the challenge.
I think first year that I did it, I wanted to do it in 24
hours and it was, I'm going to say 22 1/2.
So success. The second year I wanted to do
it unsupported. I had my crew, they were meeting
me at the checkpoints, but I didn't want anybody to run with
me, even if I was allowed a runner at the time.
And back then it was if you were within 4 hours of the leader and
I can't remember if I was or not, but I didn't want them to
run with me anyway. So I actually MY2 crew, they
were capable of coming and getting me, but they weren't
capable of keeping up with me. So that that was my way of
saying right, you're, you're not running with me.
So it was. It worked.
Yeah, yeah. So let me just go away, right?
You've obviously got your your team, but things don't always go
to plan. Do you get nervous about things
not going to plan? I, I would, I would like to
think that one of the reasons I've been quite effective in
these roles as that I can be quite logical and not panic
when, when something doesn't go to plan and you make sensible
decisions on it. And I think that's now if she
said what, what do I bring to the overall thing is the sub
leadership? But I would hope that's what it
is. You can step back and you can.
So just say, right, OK, we've got to here.
Last year was a good example. We've got to there.
We've got a problem with the with with the accident and it's
going to cause significant impact on the race.
How do we deal with this? What do we need to do right?
We need to communicate. Let's make sure all of our
checkpoints know, let's make sure that the athletes, the
runners are carrying enough kit because they could be out there
a long time without seeing the support crew, right?
We've we've done that tick, right?
What else can we do? We needed at some stage to be
talking to the police about can we are you happy for us to get
people up to Glencoe if they come back down tech, You know,
somebody was dealing with that and it's almost just sort of,
you know, you breathe aside and you just do all the different
bits and don't panic on it. And I think that's that's kind
of important. And because we've got such a
good team now, everybody's thinking the same way.
You've got reliable people who are at the checkpoints who
something arises, they know what to do.
They know the sensible thing. Ultimately, Mike, it's about,
you know, the key priorities, everybody's safety.
So if people are going in with that point of view, then they'll
take sensible decisions and. They know when to phone, they
know when to ask. They know when when to
communicate properly. Let me do.
That I think it's important to say that it was an accident on
the road, nothing to do with the race, nothing to do with the
extra traffic you were putting on the road or anything like
that. It just it's one of those things
that you have 0 control over. So thumbs up, it worked and
something that I would, I would say was I was just probably I
was on Jelly BB Hills on what 2 miles after bridge of Orky.
So it's around about the area of the accident and there was 0
people complaining about it. So thumbs up to the race
organization it was nobody had any.
They knew you could, you were doing the best that you could do
with it so. Yeah, and it was things like we
turned Ken Lock leaving into a supported checkpoint.
They went to the court, they got some food, just kind of suddenly
switch things around. You can't really plan that.
You just have to deal with what's in front of you.
And the team are very, very good at that.
And we managed to be tears in some ways, we fortunate.
I I would get through. I actually passed the accident,
but it was before the road was closed.
So I was in the the north side, which was a better place for me
to be. Our timing guy, Martin was in
the north side. So that was good as well.
He'd been to the checkpoints and we just said to then adjust to
what we what we saw. Yeah.
Think things like that, changing plans.
How do you think being the race director, if you went back to
running it now or if you were telling somebody else, how would
things change based on what you know?
If you were sort of coaching somebody, how how would you tell
them to do it differently compared to what you did?
I don't know I would do that differently.
I think I, I, I, I still do coach quite a number of people.
I do a bit of coaching and I think sometimes people can
probably run faster than they think they can.
And it's having that belief that you can take your body to place
and you won't fall apart. And you kind of get that
experience by training in different sections of the
course. And you know, you can do it.
And I mean, one of the things when, when Sandra was doing it
that she'd real problems going downhills with our, with our
quads. And so we did a session training
in February where we went over the devil.
See, we, she, she went over the devil staircase over to Kenlock,
Cleveland, back to Glencoe, then did it all again.
And it was all about having a big day where you get used to
get up and down that particular section of the course.
And when she got to that race day, it was like, this is easy.
I've done this before, I've done it twice.
And it's just getting yourself into that frame of mind.
So I would encourage them not to be, not to be too, too cautious.
If you, if you want to run a sub 24 and a lot of people are
capable, you've got to push yourself a wee bit.
You know, you've got to, you've got to take it.
Take yourself out. Put yourself into a place where
you think, my goodness, this might hurt.
Right. You told us how people could
volunteer for the race. It is now volunteers.
I don't think you're open until around Christmas or maybe even
after that. But the race itself, for people
wanting to run it is open at the moment.
Entries. It's a ballot, but can you tell
me how? What's the entry criteria and
how do people enter? Yeah, you've got to have run,
you've got a real relevant adequate experience we say,
which means I've done a 65K off road ultra since 2022 onwards.
So so you've got to have that to enter.
And if you have that and what to enter, then the entry form is on
SI entries online. It's open till the 30th of
November. There's no benefit in, in
entering apparently it's not first come, first served.
It's just once we get to the end of November, everybody who's got
the qualifying will go into a ballot and and the 300 people
will be selected. So, so if you, if you fancy it
still, still time to do that. We're already over the 300.
So there will be a ballot. I think we're at 350 already,
but it's popular. But it's a great experience and
and people have done it before. I think I've drawn back and
those who have helped are drawn to as well.
So it'd be be great to see you if you fancy.
Right. I think we're going to wrap it
up there and see you in June, I think.
So thank you, Ian, and thanks everybody for watching.
Thank you very much.