Hello and welcome back to another episode of Run Till
You're Done. Tonight's guest.
I've deliberately not told Nikki who we're interviewing, so she
worked out his name, but that's about it.
She did a bit of Google stocking and found that they had a a
mutual connection on LinkedIn, but I don't think that's given
anything away. Is known for being a public
speaker and that's about all she's found out.
But what she doesn't know is he's got a book out and I'm sure
we'll get on to talk about that and there's something else that
we're going to get on. I think people will find it much
more interesting. Inspiring is my word.
The reason why I wanted to come on was because I think people
will be inspired by a story. So welcome to the podcast at
Yakimo Squintini. Thank you, Mike.
Glad to be here. Welcome to the podcast, Jacimo.
Nice to meet you. And you must have had it really
easy, Nikki, looking up Jacamo Squintini on Google, because
Google once told me I was the only one.
So. It wasn't too difficult.
It was it was I was very impressed by your DUV, but I'm
sure we will get on to that. And that leads us on to the
first question, which is how did you get into running?
Quite simply, I got into running because I was obese and so it
was 2011 when I had epilepsy surgery, as a result of which I
got stuck on a bed for a few weeks convalescing.
But I'd really not realized how even leading up to that.
I just got completely out of shape.
Young kids, family, travelled for work so ate out a lot when I
did, and I wasn't playing tennis four times a week like I used
to. And I went in for surgery
November 2011, got on the scales for the anaesthetic and I had to
look away because I could see the needle going towards treble
figures in kilograms. And I've not weighed myself in
ages. That terrified me or shamed me.
And because of epilepsy, I can't, I don't drive.
So I was trying to think what can I do to regain some shape,
lose some kilos where I'm not having to get to a gym, a club,
a pool and which I can work around my family, which are my
number one priority so I can go out when it suits me for however
long it suits me. And I used to hate running with
a passion, but I couldn't see beyond that.
Cycling. I've been banned from cycling by
my wife because I had two seizures in the space of 12
months while cycling on the A 38.
And and so I maintained to this day that when they took out a
bit of my brain, they took out the bit that hated running.
So I went out April 2012, ran, walked, ran a minute, walked a
minute, did that 10 times and that's how it started.
And it's somewhat snowballed from there.
And tell us a little bit about epilepsy.
I I know bits and pieces but was there triggers?
So firstly, it doesn't stop me going to concerts.
That's the main thing. It's not strobe lightning
related. So let's get that out of the
because that's one of the common misconceptions.
And if you've spoken to 1 epileptic person, you've spoken
to 1 epileptic person. It affects people differently.
So I don't get auras, I don't get warnings and I can't point
to any specific triggers. What I have noticed with running
is the one, the one distance I retired from quite early on was
10 KS because they were intense. They were long enough to push my
heart rate up beyond what maybe it should have been.
And I think, you know, you should stop attempting something
when you overhear the local St. John's Ambulance guys say, oh,
it's you again. Right.
So, so I had a couple in consecutive weeks and in a way
that's one of the reasons that ultras appeal to me because for
a large part of some of the ultras I've done, my heart
rate's been in double digits. So and I've got no scientific
proof that that's the case. My consultant thought it could
be the case but wasn't 100% sure because with epilepsy, nobody
ever is. So I don't have any specific
triggers. It is something I'm aware of and
it was happening occasionally races and I don't race a lot.
It only ever happened to me once in a non race situation and
that's when I was away with work and probably a bit stressed
about that. So it does make the logistics of
getting around races interesting though relying on public
transport. So you don't.
Sorry, Mike. What's the furthest you've gone
on public transport to get to a race?
Well, a race that I've actually been able to do, I'd say, well,
public transport, Mugai and if we're counting airlines, then
Seville. But certainly I've now been
seizure free for over six years. So I take my meds, I'm a good
boy. I allow for the possibility of
having a seizure. I always warn people, but I wake
up every morning expecting to not have one, allowing for it
but not expecting it. But it has always meant that
when people talk about, you know, Western states travelling
that sort of distance by race, that has never appealed to me
because it's a long way to go to concow and before we even get
into conversations around medical systems in in the US.
So most of the rates that I do I can are on this island and
occasionally it's been on the continent in Europe.
So you've done your run walking, and as you say, doctors removed
a bit of the brain that decided you didn't like running.
Yeah. What point?
Like, what was your first race? When did you feel confident
enough you were going to enter something?
I so I started run walking in the April.
I probably signed up in May for a 10K that September and it was
a 10K up in Sheffield called the 10/10/10 because the first time
they hosted it was on the 10th of October.
Calendars aren't always that kind but, and I did it on the
22nd of September 2012 and it was, I chose that one because I
was born in Sheffield, I have family there and this race began
and finished in a park where I'd play as a kid or even as a
teenager, go along and kick a ball.
And so it seemed an appropriate place to to prove to myself that
I could run 10 kilometres. It was under 50.
I want to say it was about 48 because me being me, once I'd
committed, I made sure that I was going to be able to do
myself justice. And it's actually it's, it cuts
through 2 parks. It's mainly trails and so there
is a clip of the race with seconds of me on YouTube where I
look like the most miserable person in the world.
But now when I when I crossed the line, I think it was 48
something, maybe 49. I was, I was pretty pleased.
You said that you're the the weight was over triple figures.
How long before you got to a weight you're happy with?
By the time I don't, by the time that 10K came along, I'd already
signed up for the Bristol Half Marathon the following week.
And when you're in as bad a state as I was, the biggest
games, games come, come early doors because, and it wasn't
just through exercise, it was I used to finish all my kids food
because I hate food waste and I had two young kids and I wasn't
moving much. But all of a sudden when you're
making a conscious effort to lose weight, then you
instinctively make a conscious effort to not put it back on by
being stupid about it. And so I, I found it easier to
regulate my calorie intake because of, of running.
So I would say I was fitting more comfortably into into my
old clothes by by the summer, by the time I did the race, I was
probably I would have been happy with that.
But I'm happier that I I shed more weight after that.
So you you've done your 10K race, how did that go from 10K
to ultra? So I think I need to blame some
specific individuals for this, right?
So back at the time when I frequented Twitter when it was a
good place to hang out, I bumped into people through through
connections as as Twitter allowed and and some of these
were marathon runners, ultra runners and run streakers.
And so in the back of my mind, much as I liked it and I think I
always wanted to run a marathon once I got into running, then my
dad has run 3 marathons. And so I wanted to tick that
box. And I did that at the end of
April 2013. But in the meantime, I'd I'd
found that the the main guilty party is somebody who I now
refer to as one of my best friends, Mike Wells.
And he talked me into doing the High Peak 40 in in September of
2013. So that was 40 miles up and
around the Peak District technical terrain, not my strong
point, but again, close to Sheffield.
So he pulled at a heartstring there.
And one of the shortest ultras I've done and one of the
toughest, both because it was the first and because it was the
Peak District. So but the just the joyful
nature of the event and the and the way it challenges body but
also mind with having to work things out, having to make
adjustments that that appeals to me.
So I pretty much always knew that was never going to be my
last ultra. And just a year later you were
up in Scotland and running the Highland Fling, where we both
raced at the same time. I think that was one of one of
the many times that we've raced against each other.
Well, you're very kind to word it like that, Mike.
But first thing that Nikki didn't know about.
There you go. Yeah.
So how many races have you competed in together?
I don't know. I I looked up the first one that
we were in together and I know that there's been several, but I
I don't know what the number is. I suspect all north of the
border, right? There have been, yeah, I'm not
sure. We might come on and talk about
something else there, but I don't know whether we've we've
both done the same races, not necessarily at the same time.
Yeah, the, as we say, you've done lots.
You look on DUV, there are quite a number.
I've got it on front of me right now and it says 31 and DVDVI
know that it misses a few out. So it could well be more than
that. And I know that you've started
more than that because Fast forward to a couple of years
ago, 2023, and I was doing the Bridge 200 refs and I, I won
that. But on the same day we were on
the same course because you were doing the Bridge 100 race and
you won that. I did, and all the more grateful
that about a month before the start I downgraded my entry
because I'd initially signed up for the 200.
But then because of how my 2022 went, I figured I wasn't ready
for 200 at that point, and so I kindly asked Mr. Cobain if I
could downgrade, and at the time, it was the right thing to
do. Absolutely.
I can get my head down sometimes when you say I downgraded to 100
mile. Race, yeah, I know it's it's a
mindset that I have to keep in check.
But yes, the the level of the level of insanity has has
progressed over the years. I think.
Just in a Cobain event is insane.
Which thing? Cobain is insane so.
Exactly so. He certainly has a lot to answer
for. Yeah.
But yeah, following year you didn't downgrade.
You upgraded to the Bridge 200, which was the original
incarnation. Well, I think they all started
at the same time. There was the 200, the 100, and
he now puts on a 40 as well. Yeah, but you started the 200.
You want to tell us what happened in that?
I started the 200. It was certainly more favourable
conditions in the year you did it.
And so it started I think 4:00 PM on the Friday afternoon and
was was going well. I was.
So this for context, the the bridge is the old Severn Bridge
from Chepstow in Wales over to Aust in in Gloucestershire.
And it's 50 laps of a approximately 4 mile loop which
miraculously multiplies to 206. And I was chatting with some of
the other runners whom I I only knew one of them.
And Friday turns into Saturday, Saturday turns into Sunday.
I feel things are going as well as I can expect them to.
It's my the longest race I'd done up until that point was
145. So I'd done both the Kennett and
Avon Canal and the Grand Union Canal race, which are both 145 S
and I had never slept. I'd never stopped for sleep
during a race and so I figured I would do the same on on this
occasion and towards, well, I say towards the end with 40
miles to go, which is still a long way to go, I am, I am in a
position where I, I know even though I'm not a fast ultra
Walker, I can probably walk it and see it through.
And so I'm doing some walking, some very light jogging and just
hoping to get these 10 laps done.
And I got 8 of them done. And so I've officially clocked
192 miles and I go out for lap 49.
And as I go out I know I need 20 minute miling which is walking.
And about a mile down the road I convince myself I need 10 minute
miling. And so I try to run 10 minute
miles, realise I can't, and I was never able to reverse the
mass to realise I had plenty of time to beat the 55 hours.
And so halfway across the bridge, I just stopped the
watch, turned round, walked back.
So some people think I turned around short because I didn't
quite get to the end. No, I knew what I knew.
I was halfway across the bridge. I just didn't realise how much
time I had in hand. And I walked back.
And the walk back took a long time.
I saw luxury yachts, hotels. I saw my son waving at me from a
window on the bridge. I was hallucinating badly or
spectacularly and and so by the time I did get back to the the
start, not having completed a lap, there was just no way of
going out and doing 8 miles. By that point my my wife had
turned up to surprise me and I think I probably surprised her
more than she did me. The state I was in.
So it was ADNF at mile 192. Because you had convinced
yourself that you couldn't when no, you think about it, there's
no reason why you thought that. The the legs could have done the
8 miles that was not a problem. And had I taken a, a nap, even
20 minutes, I might have kept the hallucinations at Bay or
might have allowed my brain to to do the right math.
And in fact, at that time, there weren't many others left on the
bridge. But you know, I, I asked
somebody where, where the start was, where's this, this is a
bridge, right? And so I'd just, I'd really just
lost my bearings and lost touch with reality.
And what I, one thing that didn't help was I'd been taking
on fluids fine during the day. It was actually a hot weekend,
but about three months later you could see where my socks
finished and where the tan line began.
But what it also probably cost me was once the sun had started
to go down and it had got cooler, I didn't take on as many
fluids as maybe I needed. That in itself is probably not
the explanation, but it was one of the factors I suspect that
contributed to to the premature end of the race.
So how long had you been awake from start to DNF?
And bearing in mind you'll obviously have been awake for a
while before the start as well. So what was your total time?
So let's think I would have got up on the Friday at about 7:00
AM and this Sunday the cut off was, I want to say the cut off
was 11:00 and it was about 9:30 I think when I made it 9:30 PM
when it came to an end for me. So yeah, 4860, about 64 hours I
guess. In fact, when I say that I think
I worked this hours at the time, it was about 62.
So in that ballpark, 60 plus. I can't actually imagine being
awake for I can't imagine being awake for longer than 24 hours.
Yeah, you. The lesson there was you've got
time. Take a nap.
Yeah. So when the what was the point
of realisation then? That the game was up or.
No, the yeah, you had enough time that you could have
finished. After.
It was too late when I got back to the the start end point and I
saw other people and that kicked me into well, actually, no, it
wasn't even then because I was, I was asking the question.
Mark very calmly explained what happened and my first reaction
was well, but if I can show with GPS that I did get to the finish
because Mark thought I'd turned around too early, which I had,
but for different reason. And so it wasn't until the
following morning that I remembered the hallucinations
and the 1020 minute minute miling mistake I made there and
then. I just thought I'd turned around
too, too soon. But close to the closer turning
point, we had different timing mats than they'd used before.
So I'm defensively making up excuses and not accepting it's
my fault when it was entirely my fault.
And there there is nobody else that you could have blamed.
I'm sure that Karen was there at the start with Mark and you
could have blamed them all you liked but they're going to turn
around and say Nope, sorry mate, your own fault.
Yeah. And and that's pretty much what
was happening on the Sunday evening.
And then I duly apologize once I'd regained my, my senses the
following morning, the morning after, whenever it was.
Yeah. And if there's one thing I've
learnt with with races, because some have gone really well, some
have gone really badly, is when it's my fault, I own my
failures. And when things go well, I own
my successes. And that's one of the lessons I
tried to take from running into, into the real world.
I I try to keep the blame all for myself.
And that's the second thing tonight that Nikki didn't know
about. So, but what she doesn't know is
you didn't let that get you down.
You went back the next year, not to the bridge, but to the tunnel
instead. And how did you get on with
that? And for those that are watching,
my background is the Tunnel and I've got finisher's T-shirt on.
I haven't got a finisher's T-shirt so you'd think I'd have
learnt from bridge. And so I turned up at the tunnel
which again starts at a similar time of day.
I think it was maybe 3:30 this year and and it was a very
similar story. I went through the 1st 100 miles
in about 21 hours as I had done on on the bridge.
So I was allowing myself time to for my pace to to go down and to
even walk the second-half and I again decided that I didn't need
to sleep, but I could get the job done in in one hit.
And the tunnel is 102 mile laps, one mile up, one mile down.
And I set off on my 99th lap and all of a sudden the tunnel by by
this point, most runners have either finished or, or DNF D.
So it's, it's a lonely place. It's a Sunday evening.
There aren't many civilians in the in the tunnel, even though
it's open to the public. And so it's me, my shattered
brain, and I had a few exchanges with some of the other runners,
one whom had won Bridge 200 the year I did it, and so he was
keen to see me actually finish this.
You're on that 99. That's about 198 cabain miles,
but it's actually more like 205. I've completed 98 so I'm out on
that. Yes, it's yeah.
It's interesting because the tunnel's actually got markers
every 100 meters telling you how far each end of the bridges the
tunnel is. So, you know, it's longer than a
mile, but that's OK. It's a different units of
measurements as long as you know.
And. And yes, I was probably
sleepwalking leaning against the side of of the tunnel at some
point just. And by this point, it's on the
one hand, I think I had something like 3 hours again in
hand to do 4 miles. But even had I tried to get some
sleep there and I think my brain had gone, I was hallucinating.
I was not hallucinating when I saw my wife, who again surprised
me. She came halfway up the Ridge to
find me the tunnel to find me. And and yeah, she, she took me
back down. So again, that's At the age of
48, I completed 192 miles. At the age of 49, I completed
196 miles. I turned 50 in December.
So you DNF the second one. IDNF the 2nd and pretty much for
the same reason. I I I should have simply got
some sleep at some point? Have you entered any this year?
So this calendar year I'd also I'd already signed up for
Cardiff to London, which is a different game.
So it starts at starts in the morning, not halfway during the
day. It was point to point and it had
a 62 hour cut off time instead of 55.
Now this was in May, so it's about two months and maybe a
week after after tunnel. There were some wise people
suggesting I don't attempt it, but I just wanted to give it a
go. And the one promise I made to
myself and to those around me, I will get some sleep somewhere, I
don't know where, but I will get some sleep.
And I got some sleep somewhere on the outskirts of Maidenhead.
I was getting some more sleeps than when he stains, but it was
a Sunday morning and somebody understandably checked that I
was OK so he could show up. My power nap but.
And who are you? I mean, have you been?
I'd lie, I'd intentionally lie down on a bench to get 15
minutes late. I got 10.
That was fine and, and I got to London.
I, I ended up managing to finish last because I was caught up
with a with a mile to go. It didn't help that I once I'd
got on the right bridge because initially I got on the wrong
bridge. I then was on the wrong side of
the road, But so somebody overtook me right at the finish,
which isn't common practice in, in ultras, as you know.
But now I finished that. So I on the one hand, I
scratched the 200 mile rich that I'd accumulated.
The flip side is it makes you realise that, yeah, if things go
to plan, it's, it's a distance I can, I can cover.
But yeah, 7 hours fewer, 7 fewer hours to do it on a bridge or in
a tunnel. I, I, I was at home watching on
the tracker and I don't think anybody cared who was finishing
before you. We were all just please, please
let it happen. And I we, we saw that you'd went
the wrong way at one point, which was near the end.
And it was like, please, somebody phone him up and turn
him around. And I did get a phone call.
I've been getting messages. I volunteer at Park Run.
I'm one of the run directors at Severn Bridge, Park Run and
somebody from my team there message me, my wife called me.
So yes, that I do make for some interesting dot watching, I'm
told on the bridge. Rose Glover, who's an
accomplished ultra runner, told me afterwards she'd she was
trying to log on to the M48 traffic cameras webcams to to
see where I was and where they're always moving.
So that's, that was interesting to watch, I'm sure.
And. You got to the end, you finished
it. Do you think that the repetitive
nature of the tunnel and the bridge had anything to do with
you? Not.
And then you did the point to point and you finished it.
You think it made a difference? If I look at it logically and
objectively, yes. Where where I struggle with this
is the repetitive events like that were not new to me.
So in 2018 and 19 I did a 36 hour event on the Humber Bridge
which is remarkably 7 similar to the Severn Bridge and on both
occasions I did 132 miles. One year I was I went outright.
Second year I was first male. I've done 100 mile in lockdown.
I did 100 mile run around our estate, which is less than half
a mile long. And and so I thought repetitive
would would suit. But what may have been my
undoing, I just might have considered the job done when it
wasn't. And 9098 laps of 100 lap racing,
you set off, you've got time and and maybe maybe I relaxed and I
let my guard down and demons made their way in.
So that's one of the things I need to need to be aware of.
The 100 Miller they did in lockdown, Was that by any chance
a Cobain virtual event? No, I can't blame Cobain for
this one. What it was, it was 2020.
I was doing the Centurion Grand Slam, so I had done the North
Downs Way on the original date in August.
I then did autumn. Sorry.
I then did the Thames Pass 100 in September and I did the
autumn 100. And so the last one left was the
South Downs Way 100, which is normally in June, and that had
been rescheduled for I think November.
And they've been great at putting on events in lockdown,
all the aid stations, food individually wrapped,
sanitizing, perfect staggered starts.
But what they couldn't control was the second lockdown and the
travel ban. So we simply couldn't get to the
start. And so I'd done the three out of
four. I, they counted the 2021 version
towards it. So I completed it, but it went
from being the slam condensed in the fewer number of weeks to the
one over the longest period. And I'd done the training I
wanted to get that fourth race. And so I just did it.
They they did a a virtual thing and it just suited for it to to
be for that. Because Mark Cobain had he, he
did one as well, which was you. You had to do it in your garden
and have us urine locked down. So I thought you might have done
that, but different same. Idea No, I did the IT was early
on in lockdown. I think it was still 2020 when
he did Cobain 19, which was 19 days of 19 mile runs.
I'd done 220 mile runs before realising the event was on.
And then I figured I might as well join it and I did twenty
20s instead of 19 nineteens. And then I did his frozen
accumulator in 21 back and even in reverse.
That was not a good idea that that took the best out of me.
You want to explain to Nikki what the accumulator is.
Yeah. So a normal accumulator would be
is typically in January would be a mile on the 1st, 2 miles on
the second, all the way to 31 miles on the last day of the
month. And on that occasion he felt
particularly generous, he offered a reverse accumulator
option. So I did 31 miles on the 1st of
the month, 30. I got stuck on 26.2 for a while,
I don't know why. So by the 10th of January I've
got 10 marathons in. And then I progressed downwards.
But that was January and yeah, in.
I didn't really allow myself time to recover from that.
I seldom do. But on that time, I paid for it.
So was the reverse not easier then?
Because you start off back and then it gets smaller and.
Smaller, I'm absolutely convinced it was yes, but it I I
didn't help myself with not taking February more likely than
I did. So run streaking in itself fine,
but there probably should have been more easy days in in
February and then in March I was there were a couple of days when
I was hobbling on my runs. And are you still on a run
streak? No.
I am indeed, yes. And one of the reasons I am is I
do not trust myself to run four or five times a week.
I have the utmost respect for the people who can do that, just
like I have the utmost respect for people who can go for a run
after work. I go every day, first thing
before breakfast so that my brain does not have the chance
to say, actually, you know what I don't really like this running
malarkey after all, Or at the end of the day, it's kids, it's
work, it's general tiredness. So now I'll go.
The time might start with A4 or A5, but that's what works for
me. So how many days are you on now?
So I am on and it just so I I can I can always remember what
day I started. But it's convenient that I've
got something on my Garmin. It's 4711.
Wow and I have got what's your rule?
Is there a I've read about run streaking and people tend to
have rules. It's got to be a male as that
what you have or do you have your own rules of your set
distance? No.
So I go by what I believe is the generally accepted minimum of 1
continuous mile. Right?
Continuous is what can make it interesting.
Say in the Sunday hours of a 200 mile Cobain event and all of a
sudden I've got I've been run walking and all of a sudden I
need to find one continuous mile that's that can be interesting.
I generally do more than that, but if it's the day after a long
one then sometimes it's it's just a one mile.
And what put you on to 4000 odd date?
I'm not even going to do the maths for that because that's
like hundreds of years it. Will be It will be thirteen
years on October. Well, October 12th will be the
start of the 14th year. I'll have completed 13 years a
day before. Insane.
So at what point did you realise I'm on a run streak and I'm just
going to keep going and see how far I can take it?
So this is one of the other things for which I'll I'll blame
my friend Mike. He was, he started run streaking
about a year before me and he kept praising it.
And he'd actually started run streaking.
It was Markathon, which no doubt you're familiar with.
So he'd taken that up around December.
It started a preview week or so before, but that he gave that a
go and he kept going. And I think I, I knew early on I
was on a streak, but I thought 100 days would be good.
And then the longer you're on it, the harder it becomes to
stop. It is there is an addiction
element to it. You know, there are addictions
out there. But if people say to you, oh,
you're obsessed, I'm not in denial.
There are worse things to be obsessed.
About yeah, yeah. Or addicted to Yeah.
Yeah. And those people that would
argue that you would need rest days and which I do agree with,
but do you count? Do you are the days you do just
a mile for a run and technically that is your rest day.
So I try to limit myself to five K 3 miles on Sundays these days.
So what for many people is the long run day.
For me it's a short run and I consider that as an easy pace, a
rest day. And if my body demands that I
slip in the occasional St. saver, the occasional mile, then
I'll do that. But I've been, the body's got
used to it and, and so in 2020 in particular, I was recovering
better than I had any right to. I'm not getting any younger, so
I I have to factor that in as well.
But on the whole, recovery is probably one of the things that
I'm luckiest with. And after going back to your
epileptic surgery, yeah, I you wrote a book.
You want to tell us about that? Yeah, so the as I got into
marathon's ultras, then again, Mike mentioned the West Ireland
Way race to me, which I knew about because I've done the
Fling. I did the Fling in 20/13/2014
and and that's when I threw my name into the ballot for the
2015 race. And so in 2015 I ended up doing
the the thing that's not a thing, the Triple Crown.
So I did the back then the Fling was still in the spring and the
Devil the Highlands was in August and in between it was the
West Highland Way race, which was the longest race I'd ever
done at that point had been the Fling itself.
So going up to 95 miles and not 95 easy miles at that was, was a
big step up. And I saw that really as a
catalyst to, to tell my story about the epilepsy, the weight
loss and the going from my, my first blog when I started,
because everybody who starts running needs a blog.
And mine was I can't stand running.
And it took me a year to accept that.
OK, maybe maybe it's OK after all, maybe I can enjoy while I'm
running. I'm not just the endorphins at
the end. And and that's why the the West
Island way race was, was a catalyst for that and called the
book Finding My way. Because of that, how I'd found
running and running in a way that worked for me.
And why I also thought that it's dangerous to say everybody can
because there will always be exceptions.
There are people who can't, but I think most people are capable
of far more than they believe they are.
And a lot of people who say I can't run, actually you can.
You may just don't. Not to.
You may choose not to. But if I can, you can.
So you wrote right in the book. How?
What was the process for that? You decided you've got your blog
and you've wrote your book and telling your story.
How does that evolve from writing it on the computer to
getting it published? What was?
What's the process for that? I, I never, I didn't really
understand the publishing game. And so it's only available on
Kindle. I sounded out a few publishers
afterwards, but I didn't realize how far ahead they plan.
And so they already had other books in the pipeline that was
similar to mine. And so it's out there, It's on
Kindle Unlimited. So I lowered the price early on
because for me it was never about, it was never going to be
my pension fund. I was just keen for people to to
learn about how I've got to run 95 miles from the from the state
I was in. Is it still available on Kindle?
It it is, yes. And now it's Kindle Unlimited,
so it's it's free effectively. And you mentioned you've done
the Triple Crown in 2015. Out of the three, what was your
favorite? The West Island Way race is my
all time favorite. I was delighted to get back to
do the Devil and I think the scenery on the devil just about
beats the scenery on on the fling on the 1st 4542 and.
But yeah, the whole experience about the West Island Way race,
from the meeting in a Tesco car park before 1:00 in the morning
to the presentation and the winner presenting the last
finisher, it's just it's a special event.
I know you've had lots of other people come on here and say the
same, but it's there's a reason for that.
I'm not sure. Is that your favorite all time
race out of everything you've done?
Yes, it still is. I've never gone back.
Well, sorry. I crewed so my friend Mike, his,
his wife and his parents crewed for me in 2015 and he did it in
2019 and I crewed for him. That's the only time I've been
back to do the the West Ireland Grey race.
Part of me enjoyed it so much that I don't want to go back.
There are other races which I've loved and I have gone back.
So the South Downs Way, I've gone and done five times in
total, and that's my second favorite race.
But the West Highland Way race, and again, logistics don't help.
It's a flight, it's a taxi. It's it's a long time.
But yeah, it was, it was interesting because even on that
one, the for a while, I don't know if anybody's beaten it, but
for a while I had the fastest time over 24 hours.
I had 24 hours and 7 minutes because Mike and I were having
such a good time coming down the Fire Rd. that we missed the sign
to take taking us off the West Island Way and towards the
finish. So yes, we, we found ourselves
knocking on some car window at 1:00 in the morning where to ask
how to get to the finish. It was some somebody crewing for
another runner was taking some, some sleep and we we interrupted
that. But so, yeah, my West Island
warehouse was 96 miles. I'm I'm getting the impression
from this chat that navigation isn't a strong point, Giacomo.
That's why I do tunnels and bridges.
And. It still doesn't work.
And I used to say exactly Mike, I used to say even I can't get
lost on a bridge. And I managed to do that.
So no, navigation is not my strong point.
Wrecking is not my strong point, again, because of the logistics.
So there are races that I just won't go near because I can't
wreck you them. So yes, I I depend on my Garmin
more than I probably should. So as the spine race not in the
pipeline then? Well, I've never done a well,
I've never done a multi stage event like spy.
I I can't say multi day because some events have taken 3 days,
but it's been a continuous event.
The whole logistical side of of a spine or a Dragon's back have
managed to at least keep that temptation at Bay.
That and a track race. Oh, so you don't fancy a Cobain
track? I'm I'm going to, I'm not going
to say never on the track, but I think I can safely say never on
the on the multi days. Do you think you can get lost on
the track? I managed to not get lost doing
lapse for my estate which were as close to it as it gets.
But yeah, I might get confused if they when they start turning
you around every three hours. But.
So you do these huge events, how how do you feel for them?
And even on your run streaking, do you feel for everything or
talk us through that? So on ultras, from a physical
perspective, I think I could get by on tailwind gels and maybe
some Cliff bars from a physical perspective.
But there comes a point where I just crave the sensation of
food. And so if all of a sudden some
flapjacks do appear on the magic Cobain table, I'll grab one.
I may need the calories, I may need them, I may not.
But it's just that sensation of doing what humans do and and
eating food. But otherwise it's, and again,
there's a practical element to this as well.
When I'm taking a train to, to get to a race, it's so much
easier to pack tailwind than it is I, I used to set off with
bagels and stuff. And yeah, this is an easier
option on a daily basis. I generally just have a coffee
before I set off and I I run fasted most of the time if and
then when I come home I I devour cereals.
Yeah, so you'll have your coffee before you go out for your run
in the morning. Yes, I I used to get up, have
some water, get dressed and go out in a which was more
efficient. These days, I, I take it a bit
more slowly. I'll, I might jot down some.
Well, I do jot down some some thoughts in a diary which isn't
for me, it's for my wife. But so that that adds a bit of
time. It takes maybe away from from
sleeping time, but on on the whole it makes for a better
balance. I don't think my car could have
a coffee before an early morning run without a Bush being nearby.
I. I don't drink coffee so I can't
call on that one, but if I'm going I'm I'm in the office one
day a week and at home the other time.
When I'm in the office I go in earlier and go for a run before
it. So leave the house at so like
half five in the morning and on the drive in I have a caffeine
drink so that when I'm when I arrive half an hour later, I'm
ready to run. But yeah, where I'm running
there's no toilets to be found, but it works.
And you run first thing in the morning.
One thing I've noticed this week, I quite like an early
morning run too, but I've quite struggled.
The mornings noticeably are getting darker.
Do you struggle with that? Yes, it's interesting when
people start commenting on the nights, throwing in sat there
thinking the sun's been rising later for a week and nobody,
nobody's noticed. You'll just notice in the
evenings the sunsets come in earlier.
So I'm still, because I seldom hit trails, very seldom hit
trails on my training runs because of how early I go out.
I like to be similar where I can be seen.
So I'm still at a point where the lights are either or the
street lights are either on or they're coming on.
And if I start with a few laps of my estate, I can do that
without lights because security lights come on and muscle memory
kicks in. But yeah, the head torches are
charged and and ready to go. Yeah.
And when? Also Nikki.
So when on Saturday I ran over to to Barker and in Wales that's
that's 20 miles from me and allow for time to get there
early. Yeah, the the head touch was was
put through its paces. And Nikki tried running in a
tunnel for 48 hours. I don't know mate, like I've
been saying, poor Mark Cobain, if he listens to this he'll
think I absolutely hate his events to the point I'm I'm
expecting a free entry to one of them to for me to politely say
no thank. You he'll take it as free I.
Honestly, don't. I'm saying I don't think I
could, but the the seeds planted if he if he'd done that, I don't
know if I actually would because I'm not rude.
No, he he wants people to think that they're hard.
They no wonder they are running around the track with no
support, fans or food and well, you're allowed food and drink.
I don't think he's that mean, is he?
But you're not allowed music. No headphones.
Oh, Speaking of no headphones, actually, that question just
pops into my mind. This isn't in the question set.
Do you run with or without music or noise in your ears?
So more often than not I don't. I maybe on, on Saturdays when
I'm running over to Wales, for some reason it appeals.
So I'll take it with me. And I often run without a phone
anyway. Whereas when I'm going to park
in, I take my phone with me. So I might as well get some
music out of it, maybe on a Sunday for even when it's my
short maybe half hour run. But most of the times I don't.
And that's because I run on roads, pavements early in the
morning. And even though the the bone
conducting headphones are great, I still feel if I'm expecting
cars to see me, I have a duty towards them.
And that's, that's how it started.
And I've not changed in spite of the technology improving.
So because let me tell you, at that time of the day, where I
live anyway, there's very few cars doing 30 miles an hour.
There's nobody around. So why would you?
So you just need to be that little bit more aware.
Yeah, you've got to be responsible for your own safety
at some points. When you run to park, run and
then you run direct, do you run home again?
No, I did a couple of times early on, but the reality is if
I did, I simply would not see my family on Saturdays.
And so I get a lift with one of the volunteers who who lives in
Chepstow. So she goes out of her way, she
adds. Takes an hour out just to drop
me off at home. So at least we get to have a
coffee before then with the rest of the team.
But yeah, I'd love to claim green credentials, but
ultimately there's a car making that same round journey.
It's just not me driving it and not taking me there.
But. I do want to shout out the Grey
volunteer. Yeah, it's Lorraine.
Grateful to the rain every week. Everybody needs a little rain.
Unless my wife's done a Walter Few and so she comes over and
walks and obviously I get a lift back with her.
So it's still not a frequent event, but it's more frequent
than it ever used to be, so. Yeah.
All right. I have all the things that
you've done running wise, which we've heard a lot of stories so
far. What's your biggest achievement?
And it might not be a race, it might just be inspiring somebody
to do Park Run. Well, when you put it like that,
I must say getting my wife to do a park run is yeah, that that's
up there. But no, I on the one hand, I am
proud of my run streak and I'm grateful that things have gone
my way where I have been able to get out for at least a mile or
for almost 13 years. And because of recent years, the
average is now somewhere around 11 1/2 miles a day.
And so to be able to do that for 13 years and I'm grateful for
that good fortune in terms of race.
I, I asked, I had to ask this question to, to my friend Mike
because he can be more objective about my achievements, as it
were than I can. And I did a race call, the big
school run just last month. It's a 12 hour event around a
college Worksop college. It's a 5K route.
And I'd done it last year come second.
And I did it this year and won it.
And in the process of winning it, I'd managed a sub 10 hour
100K, which I wasn't even aiming for.
But I'm reliably informed that of my, of the races I've done,
that's, that's up there. So, but yeah, it's, it's their
own streak thing. And it's always, I do have
people, I've had people come up to me during a race and say,
I've read your book. And and that's, that means a lot
because then they they thank me and if I can pass give anything
back to the running community. After all, it's given to me
then. Always delighted to do that.
And during your 13 years of streaking, run streaking, not
just streaking. Have you been injured?
I can think to two or three days when I would have advised
anybody else to not run in in the state that I did.
Yes, the and bizarrely the the worst state I was in was leading
up to Bridge 200 last year. So I'd gone over to Italy for my
mum's 80th birthday. I was carrying a niggle and I
kept running on it more than I should have done.
And it got to the point where I, I needed to see.
I saved my physio. I've only seen him on on three,
well, six occasions and occasions over the course of
three separate injuries. And I walked in or hobbled in
and one of the first things he said was I'm not going to tell
you not to run because I know you won't listen.
But he was able to, to fix me up.
And whatever went wrong on bridge, it was not, it was not
the legs, it was not the body. It's.
But yeah, I I needed him to to put me together again.
After the after the bridge in the tunnel, you got up and did
your one mile the next day. Yes, I did.
Well, it's a run streak mate. Come.
On No, I'm just making sure that everybody knew.
Yeah, yeah. Well, although, yes, on the on
the Monday, yeah, I might have waited till the afternoon.
That's the difference. I don't think I got up at 4:00.
Yeah, well, I did get up at 4:00 in the night after after bridge,
but that's because all of a sudden I thought I was back on
it and I could see that actually lasted about the best part of a
week. If I'd wake up in the night, I'd
I could just about see the bridge.
The next question that we have on the set, this has probably
changed I would imagine for you over the 13 years, but why do
you run? It it definitely has changed.
So it's gone from straightforward weight loss to
fitness and fitness of two kinds.
There's the physical one is obvious, the mental 1 is not as
obvious, but it's just as important.
So I, I became aware during lockdown that I was in a better
place than a lot of other people, not least because I was
able to, I was, I was running, I was going out when there was
nobody else out there, but I was still able to, to get my miles
in. And, and I've, I've been working
from home since long before it became fashionable or
commonplace. I was working from home at the
back end of the last Millennium. And and if I didn't run, I could
probably go entire weeks without getting out of my house or at
least getting off my estate. Whereas running makes sure that
I maintain some contact with reality and opens up communities
to me, whether it's the Parkland community, the West Highland Way
race community. And so these days, I'd say it's
probably more about the the mental benefits than than the
physical ones because although, yeah, it'd be as I get older, if
it helps me keep in in check, that's a bonus.
And our next question has probably changed throughout
different races as what do you what do you think about when you
are running? So there are times when I try to
think about nothing at all and just preserve the energy.
And depending on the race, I might want to take in the
scenery. And if I'm, if I'm out on a
morning run, some again, some days I'll think about nothing.
Some days I'll plan for the day ahead and fix things in my mind,
maybe work related that I was unable to fix staring at the
computer the previous day. But and early on when I, when I
started doing marathon training long runs and all of a sudden I
was out on my own for for three hours, I started questioning,
asking myself big questions I'd never got around to asking
before or that I'd never truly questioned.
So I grew up in in Italy. I was a very good Catholic altar
boy and long run took my, my Christian faith away because all
of a sudden I had three hours to kill.
And I I questioned some of the beliefs I've never questioned
before. But more often than not, it's,
it's the mundane, although it is nice sometimes on, on the longer
ultras to lose touch with, with the news, with reality, to not
have the if I'm working, I want to know what's going on.
I feel I need to know. I feel I have a responsibility
as a citizen, a father, a husband, to know what's going
on. But if I'm on that bridge going
back and forth, you know, it's nice to get to the Sunday
evening and not have a clue as to what's going on or what has
happened in the world. Yeah.
And thinking about you said you like taking the scenery, did you
see anything in the tunnel? At one point I, I didn't see
creatures, I didn't see anything moving.
But there was a point when I couldn't recognise it as a
tunnel I'd been in for the previous two days.
And I think I did ask a couple of runners if I was in the
tunnel. But yes, I, I don't know.
And I was trying to that might have been when I was trying to
teleport myself back home because I wasn't sure where I
was and didn't quite work. So do you still you've done
loads of events? Do you have a dream race or a
bucket list event that you want to do or that you're planning on
doing? Well, you say I've done both
events. I've not really done either of
them and had I failed earlier on in both of them I'd be able to
let go I think. But because I got as close as I
did, they are both my dream race and my nightmare race, and I'm
attempting them both next year. I'll be you soon.
So the bridge is every other year.
And so next year I'm going to attempt the what Mark calls the
Overground, underground, underground, Overground double,
which I believe only two people have achieved.
No, three people now, and one of them's on this call.
So I bet I've promised my wife and I mean it, and I'll go on
record. I'm just rolling the dice one
more time with both speakers. She's concerned about what it
does to my brain, which is not why I'd right to start with and
I I understand the concern. Any medical professional would
probably, maybe not necessarily the bridge, but would question
what the tunnel might do and but I 192 and 196 when the goal is
200 is just tantalising glucose. So I'll roll the dice one more
time on both. I I I've got an opinion on which
one was harder, but which one do you think is harder?
Well, I know your opinion and I actually share it.
I think the bridge is harder simply because you don't really.
We, I have this every week at Parkland, people coming up to me
saying, oh, I thought the bridge was flat.
Well, if the bridge was flat, it would collapse.
It's, I'm not a structural engineer, but I know that much.
And you don't, you don't realize it when you're driving over it,
but when you're running over it, you do realize there's a more
significant elevation change. Now the tunnel's not flat
either, but at least you've got a mile net downhill.
So, but that's compensated by and I I already knew this
because of doing hell on the Humber.
The scenery is constantly changing in in May you see the
afternoon, the sunset, the night, the sunrise.
So on the mind, I would say bridge is easier.
On the legs, I'd say bridge is harder.
I I can understand that. For me it was the surface.
The the tunnel is tarmac and the bridge is concrete and you think
they're the same thing, but they're definitely not.
No. Concrete is solid and tarmac's
got that slight given it. Yes, no, absolutely agree.
And I suspect that that because it didn't take me by surprise
because I'd run on that bridge and the Humber Bridge for many a
mile before. But yes, you you certainly
notice it more in the in the final stages of the race.
So I would normally do, I would normally use shoes with a fairly
minimal drop. There's only on on my daily
runs, but I was introduced to to fairly bouncy hockers and and I
use those on on the bridge not to run any faster, but just to
delay at least the the pain kicking in.
And moving on to what can be an awkward question, but is there
anybody that you would like to have a run with whether they're
with us or not? It's it's not an awkward
question at all. The answer may not be standard,
but as a massive lifelong Bruce Springsteen fan, I would merely
go out for a run with him. I know he doesn't run anymore.
He he used to. Now he's his excuse is that he's
in his mid 70s. But and but otherwise, if I was
a pick a runner, I'd I'm still at heart, I'm probably still a
Roadrunner and I'd go for Elliot.
That's a good answer. And again, those who've read the
book wouldn't be surprised by this, but so I one the hardest
question you can ask me is, are you an only child?
So my younger brother was stillborn.
My sorry, my older brother was stillborn.
My younger brother died shortly after being born.
And so I can never consider myself an only child.
And on the one hand, maybe I they should have been my answer,
but on the other, every ultra I've done, in fact, even from
that first 10K, I've always felt them with me every step of the
way. So I consider I do run with
them. And when you're doing 200 mile
races and you're questioning how you're going to get to the end,
you remind yourself, I am fortunate.
I have the option to do this. I've got the body to do this.
I'm alive. I can do it.
And that's that's something I've always been been aware of.
And it hits me just just before the gun goes off.
And it's probably one reason I've DNF when I've lost my
senses. But otherwise, I've never DNF
because I've felt like throwing it out.
Yeah. And your brothers are obviously
running with you in your head, if not physically.
And if you're listening to music, I'm sure Bruce
Springsteen is with you as well. So you just have to get kicked,
Yogi. Yeah.
That's fine. That's fine.
So to close round up the interview unless Mike has any
further questions. Aside from your Over Under
Cobain madness next year, do you have anything else coming up for
the rest of 2025? So I'm doing autumn 100 in
October and it's 100 miles. It's going to be tough, but to
be honest, the main reason I do it is because I did forge
friendships, connections in that Centurion community.
And I don't go back as I don't do as many as I used to because
I've been doing other stuff. But I like to go back to that
one and just see a few people. And it's also a good way of
gauging where I'm at fitness wise towards the end of the
year. But that's the only race.
And then I am running around a deserted caravan park in
Cleethorpes in November. They have back-to-back marathons
and again that's just an excuse to go and see friends in the
area. But my focus is already I'm
already looking to to early March and anything I do is
always is it going to help or hinder what happens in March so.
Well, on you go, Nicky. I was, I think I was about to
say what you were probably going to say is we wish you the best
of luck for them. Thank you.
Definitely same for me.
And on that note, I think as Nikki said, brings the the
interview for tonight to an end and just say thank you Nikki for
being Nikki. Thank you Grakmo for coming on
and hopefully inspiring people. Go and buy his book and there's
goodbye from me. Thank you both.
Goodbye. Thank.
You.