Hello and welcome back to another thrilling episode of Run
Till You're Done. The previous guest was Nikki, as
you'll see here. I don't know which side she's
on. Good feedback that I got some of
the highlights for for me were she knows how to talk a lot.
And another one was it, it felt like she was interviewing you,
not the other way around. So that's what we're going to
do. She's going to interview me.
I've just done a race. I've I've know that I've not
introduced myself to this podcast.
So over to Nikki. Thanks for letting me come on
and ask the questions on your behalf.
But a lot of us are interested in your running journey.
As we discussed previously, you have been a guest on a previous
podcast on Young Hearts from Free, but you also said quite a
few people still don't listen to that podcast as well.
So it's good to get your background on your own podcast.
That's nice. Yeah, no problem with me.
It's if anybody wants to ask a question on you.
No, definitely we will get started on where you usually
start and who are you and how did you get into run him.
Well, I my name is Mike. I stay just N Aberdeen, a small
well just outside a small former fishing village called Coliston.
I I've live on on the coast. You can't see from my background
at the moment, but I'm about 50 meters from the coast.
So if you leave anything outside, it rusts, even plastic.
People say the plastic doesn't rust.
Yeah, it does here. You still haven't tried it yet.
I've been running for my first run and I document everything.
My first run was middle of August 2915 years ago.
First ultra was maybe a year later, maybe under a year later.
I think 2010. So started off doing 10K in
Inverness. The Inverness 10K had said that
they were doing a corporate event.
So there was a team from my work going.
Somebody said do you want to go along or why not go along and
join them and never run before. But got me into it.
I used to do hill walking but not running and when we're up in
the hills you think, look at those crazy buggers running past
you and now look at me. Yeah, so did did the 10K.
When I finished the 10K the marathon was on the same day and
a friend from work said oh, I'm doing Edinburgh Marathon in six
months time, fancy joining me and why not?
Did it and it was a hot day. It was I've, yeah, I don't know
what happened. I collapsed over the finish line
and said I am never running again as you do.
I can't remember what date that was.
Must have been. Yeah, I, I don't know what day
it was, but that led, I think it was in the pub actually after
that race talking to George Reed and he convinced me he's a way
to start doing a new race in Aberdeen where I was standing at
the time. Called the D33 and it's Aberdeen
to Bancree. So 16 1/2 miles.
Turn around and if you have to phone your mum and tell, tell
them if you're quitting, get on the bus and go home and or you
go back to Aberdeen. So 33 miles, simple.
It was a no fuss event, none of your big crowds in Edinburgh
Marathon. It was the basics.
I think it was 19 LB to enter. It was as my kind of race so and
that that was set up to be part of soms, the Scottish Ultra
Marathon Series which went on. Its purpose was to make ultra
marathon running a thing in Scotland and it served its
purpose. So it disbanded after a while.
I think I won, won the championship in 2014.
I think it was, came second a few times.
But some people thought it was unfair.
Some people thought it was yeah, you had to do a certain amount
of races, score a certain amount of points.
It was encouraging people at the time people said, oh, you
shouldn't do more than two marathons a year.
I think one year I did 9 ultras or something like that.
So it's, it's each of their own. It depends what you try to get
out of it. Some of the runs that I did
during that time, I was doing very much training runs.
So does that count? I wasn't pushing my body, but
yeah. And there's a lot of discussion
as to whether you should use events as training runs.
I've done that myself. This year was my big goal for
the Devil run. The Blades 50K was the last long
run for me. I've had feedback.
Or you shouldn't use an event as a training room.
But why not, you know? You use it for whatever you want
to use it for. You're paying your entry fee, so
why not? Definitely.
So going back to that first 10K, do you remember your time for
that? 53 minutes.
So is it at that point you'd never ran before, not even at
school? I yeah, Thinking about it, I
used to do some cross country at school, but that was about 15
years previous to that. So I don't think, I don't think
there was any relationship between how I ran then and how I
ran when I was, what, 29, I think.
So 53 minutes, a lot of people say everyone should say it's all
relative, which it is for me, 53 minutes, my PB for a 10K, which
I am delighted at. Did you know from that first run
how fast and how good you were going to be?
Like, did you know you were going to be a front runner?
I from that run, no, I, I didn't know what I was capable of.
I, I thought I was capable of being faster.
And even at 10, KII wouldn't be expecting to win a 10K if I went
out. I don't know if I trained
specifically for that type of race, but I don't say that I
enjoy it. I prefer going out on a long
run, even if it's slower, so do what you enjoy.
And was that 10K our own race? Yes, it was probably net
downhill, completely tarmac. So when do you prefer trails
Tuta? Oh, every time, yeah.
It's if there's a choice it would be trail every time.
And was that spawned from D33 or was there another event?
Or was that just training the Spudgeon for the trails?
Probably from training D 33 is probably 80 to 90% tarmac.
The does go on a trails and some of it but it's flat.
It's it's hard compressed grit if anything.
No. I much prefer being out in the
hills. Like just enjoying Land Rover
tracks would be a good thing. Rocks and any any hills.
So people that know the two of us that are listening and or
watching the podcast know that you and I are very, very
different runners. You are at the front, you're in.
It's a winner. I go to try and finish it, you
know, party at the back and hoping to progress a bit
further. But because everybody they would
say the ultra running world, small circles and you start to
find out who are the front runners and when you see the
names on the list on entry central and places like that,
all such and such buddies doing it or they're going to win, you
know, in this charter. Do you feel internal and
external pressure when people perceive?
If I saw your name on the list of an event that we were doing
together, I would expect you to be definitely top five, if not
top three. I, I, I know that the external
pressure is there, but honestly it doesn't, doesn't affect me
because there have been times there, there's been external
pressure. I think once when I was doing
the Fling, the Scottish Athletics hangers, possibly
Adrian, they've written up an article about who's going to be
in the top whatever and my name is mentioned.
I brushed off because what he didn't know was I was running
with a friend and we finished in about 14 hours.
Yeah. So it's I, I run my own race,
but when I do, yes, I, I feel that I put on put on internal
pressure on to myself and I think that that can be a good
thing. The race that I just did that
I'll talk about later. I, I had myself psyched up to
win that race. There was nothing going to stop
me. I was going to either win or do
the best that I was capable of. And a lot of races, that's how
if, if I think I've got a chance of winning, that's the sort of
pressure that I'll put on myself to try and win.
May maybe not as extreme as this time, but that that's our
pressure. Yeah, we do do see you on
Strava. We've not so long made Strava
friends. And you do put the arrows in to
your training. Is that your own plans or do you
have a coach? And know that coach never have
nearest thing I've got is running club, but I I use that
more as a social running thing and intervals.
I probably wouldn't do intervals if I didn't have the running
club there to do it. But yeah, it's to socialize with
all the runners basically. In terms of coaching, I've had
nutrition coach probably, I can't remember how long ago it
was, probably 12 years ago. And they taught me sort of
thing. But I think that they were
learning themselves that they hadn't they, they were good at
getting people to lose weight or to get bodybuilders into shape.
They hadn't dealt with runners before.
So they were learning what I was doing as well as the other way
around. And to be honest, now I think I
know more than they taught me then, if that makes sense.
Yeah, definitely. Are you a coach yourself at all?
I've got a qualification, Scottish.
What is it? The jog?
I think it's jog. Scotland's Scottish Athletics
leader in running fitness. I'm qualified in that, but to me
that qualifies me to take a running session that in my
opinion, that doesn't qualify you to coach somebody.
No. So that I I'm so I I can take
sessions at the running club, but I.
No, though I'm saying no. I I would disagree with that to
a point because you've been running.
As you say, 50. Years.
I wouldn't say that. Experience.
Yeah, I wouldn't say that I couldn't coach somebody.
I'm not qualified to coach somebody.
Yeah. It's is it, do you need to be?
I don't know. But I I'm qualified to coach
myself and that's all I do. Yeah, definitely.
So with that, you coach yourself how you're a dad's.
How old is your wee girl? She is 6 1/2.
She'll tell you. So still very young, you've got
a wife how? And you've got a job full time.
Yes. How do you set all your family
commitments, working full time and your training all into life
basically? We make it work.
If you want to do something, you find the time to do it.
With Flora, 6 year old, we take it two nights on, two nights
off. So bath and bedtime I do two
nights, wife does two nights. So we take a turn about.
If I want to do something, I put it in our calendars that we can
both. We both work at the same place
so we can share calendars. We can see what each other has
to do. We use it for our personal
calendar as well. So if we want to do something,
we put it in the calendar and block it out.
Whoever gets there first gets to do it.
Try not to get in then each other's way, try and make it
work. Sometimes it doesn't.
There's where where we live, babysitters are thin on the
ground. I think there's, I don't think
there's been one night that Flora's been away from either of
us and just 6 1/2. So yeah, that's it just works.
It's yeah. So basically be organized as the
key. I guess so, yeah.
But the calendar, that's a really good idea.
That's something to consider for for myself for the future.
That was actually more of a personal question for me.
How to see if that's in the way I'm intending to fit mine in is
I'm more of a morning person, so I'll go out for a run in the
morning. As you say where you live, I
don't know if that would work for you because you're in total
darkness. I'm lucky I'm in Glasgow and
have the streets and everything for light.
When when is your preference for training?
Are you a morning runner or are you an evening runner?
I usually I finish work at 4:00, get straight out the door
usually, but I'll I'll quite happily run that anytime I've
got head torches that are I've run through the Alps with the
head torch I've got. If it can do that, then it can
do the nature reserve that's next to my house.
And that's a best for the head torches because since the last
podcast, I've actually had a few people say to me, oh, I'm going
to try the LED lenses and off of your recommendation.
So that was a good tip. That was some of the feedback I
got from the last one. Good.
So I, I've, I've got four of them, so that's as much as I can
say. So fueling, you spoke about
having a nutrition coach in the past.
Do you have the same fueling as back then?
Have you changed a lot of things?
And for your races, do you adapt?
You're feeling safe. For instance, if you were to go
out and do 10K half marathon as opposed to a multi day event,
how does your feeling differ? The nutrition coach was probably
more on daily food. That's your normal diet with a
little bit of running in it. But for likes of A10 KA normal
like my standard run is 6 miles or 10 miles.
I wouldn't normally fuel for that.
So they weren't they were telling me what to eat before a
run or what to eat after a run, what to eat during the day.
So you didn't need to fuel in your run that that type of
thing. But for for 10 K 10 miles half
marathon, I'm not sure. If it was a training run I
wouldn't fuel. If it was a race I would
probably anything up to marathon, even 50K I'd be on
gels. Anything over like ultras.
Real food and as soon as possible you find or I find that
later on you might not want to eat something.
So get the real food in when you can.
Don't let your stomach stop working.
If you don't use it then it'll shut down so that it can
concentrate. Your body can concentrate on
putting blood and whatever to the areas that need it, so get
the proper fuel in while you can, which is at the start of
the race. Yeah, I totally agree with that.
For the likes of backyard, when you're running multi days could
be then fueling every lap constantly every lap.
So that's someone really wise person told me a wife runner
said you're feeling is like your fingerprint find what works for
you. So in your backyard especially
you're saying every lap what works for my crafting?
What will you eat on lap one and then what will you eat on lap
30? For me, breakfast cereal.
Just breakfast. Yeah, but if you look at it,
it's carbohydrates and that's what you're wanting and that's
what works for me. I found that for and through
experimentation over, I've done 10/10 backyards and I've only
just realized that, oh, it's giving me runs and not the type
that you want. So I don't eat oats and I was
fine for, for this race. So that's, that's something it's
taken me. I think this is ultra 61 or 62.
I'm not entirely sure because DUV is not 100% up to date, but
it's taken me that long 15 years of running to realize that that
was the case. So did you get the runs just
from eating oats and you didn't swag until fairly recently?
The. It's never straight away, it's
several hours later. Ah, right, that's interesting.
But like if I have oats for breakfast and then run at
lunchtime then I'll need to go to the toilet.
Oh, that's really interesting because it's something that I've
never ever thought about. Like he would automatically
think, well, I automatically thought like I used to have.
I've had a gel and an empty stomach once and that is a
mistake you make once because I had to go to the loot similar,
but it happened instantly with with you saying that and then
having to go later on. That's actually quite
fascinating how long it takes to work through your body.
So yeah, that's it's good that you realize now though.
Yeah, and it's from a backyard I had, I think I had wheat, Becks,
oats, maltodextrin and milk all in one bowl.
And something was making me go to the toilet every lap.
And I cut one thing out. Nope, still happening.
Cut another thing out and it got down to the oats.
It was like, that's the thing that was wanting.
So scrap that, go back to it, add everything else back in and
I'm fine. So.
That. And did you manage to make it
back after every loophole? Was it mid loop that you would
have to run into the Bush? No comment.
Builders. Does an ultra runner go in the
woods? Oh, I would, I would say that
I've had that experience but I haven't yet, so still learning.
So you've done 60 odd ultras. That is a lot.
Do you have a favorite race where everything when absolutely
bang on the dream race got your day goal fueling was perfect?
Or do you even have a favorite race?
But it doesn't, and because you purely finished, that was what
made it good? I I've got lots of races that
there are individual aspects of it that I've really enjoyed.
Performance wise, I've done the Great Glen full course, so the
73 miles. I've done it four times I think
and I've won it three times. But it's the time that I came
second that I thought I had the best performance.
And the reason why was I, I was deliberately running with
somebody else. And I asked the race director,
could I run it with them? They're not going to get
penalized for me running with them.
The answer was no. I had paid my entry.
I wasn't a pacer because I'd paid my entry.
They can't stop me. We got to halfway, 35 miles and
one of the Marshall says, Oh no, you're not allowed to do that.
I was like, I've got permission, I'm allowed to do it.
And it got me at that time, I was an hour and 7 minutes, I
think it was behind the leader. And that got me so worked up and
adrenaline pumping, I I picked up some gels from the leftover
table and I went for it. That's when I started racing.
I finished in second place, a minute and a half behind the
leader. That's insane.
So performance wise, yeah, that that's my best race.
And where did your friend come? Do you remember?
She was second female I think. Fantastic.
I don't know how far behind that, but there's other races
like the Hill. I went into that confident It's
160 miles. It was my first mark.
Can be an event and nobody knew who I was.
It was down in England in the Peak District and no, nobody
knew who I was, which was good for me.
And I heard Mark telling people at the start on most people
aren't going to finish this. And I had it in my head, I'm
going to finish it. You don't know who I am.
I know who I am. And I did the first.
It was 55 reps of a hill, 160 miles in total, and I did the
first one, first 5K in like 21 minutes and people say, Oh no,
it's going too fast. He doesn't know what he's doing.
A day later, yeah, they weren't saying that anymore.
So. And was it at that event that
you met Mark Cobain, your first one?
Yeah, that was my first one, yeah.
And what did he say when you done that?
I think he although he puts out the persona of he wants his
races to be hard. He is happy that people finish
them. He is hard, he is happy that
people do something hard that he has put on.
Yeah, because his event sounds absolutely disgusting.
They can be. I I say that now and watch me in
three years time. Oh yeah, I can run through that
200 because I suppose that this is where it all starts, isn't
it? You start with a 10K and you go
just go a bit further and you know if you're into it and then
before you know it you're signing up, going up and down
Wales with no checkpoints or it's a single checkpoint.
That's his race long last cream you the I think it's the red
line whales is what it's called. It's a cycle route and that's I
think there's about 50 miles of tarmac and 200 and 5200 miles
off road. Checkpoints every 50 miles and
water drops every 25 miles. But you are allowed to go into
shops. Right.
So because everybody has that access.
Yes, yeah. Because that was one thing I did
actually ask a few friends about, the flying I've signed up
for next year, the honesty box at the bottom of Ben Lomond.
Are you allowed to buy for it or is that classed as additional
support? And people have said no, you can
buy from it because it's accessible to everyone.
So it's not no one's getting any further advantage.
Yeah, I think the rules must have changed because the last
time I had involvement with the Fling, I was crewing for Rob
Sinclair when he set the court record and I was allowed to meet
him at certain checkpoints. Not every checkpoint, but
certain checkpoints. And I was allowed to give him
the fuel, but that wasn't in between checkpoints.
So the honesty boxes in between. So I I don't know how it counts.
Yeah, I'm not sure. I think the rules for the flying
though are there's absolutely no support allowed on the course.
But as you see, I don't know if that includes at checkpoints.
So what have you? Because they've changed the
rules last year that we're not allowed to use polls.
Yes, I saw that. Which I'm a little bit like, you
know what, I kind of want to try it without if I can.
You don't need to. I didn't need it for the devil.
Well, I might, I would have benefited from it, but I'm I'm
of the mindset. I've done it now so.
I, I'm, I'm actually glad that they've came round to that
because there there was an urban myth that you're not allowed to
use polls in Scotland and put it, put it to bed.
That has never been a rule. Sums, which I mentioned earlier,
the Scott shot, the marathon series, they had a rule that you
weren't allowed to use poles in any of the races that were part
of sums and that's where it came from.
But anybody that wasn't part of sums the race director was
allowed to choose. Scotland Athletics never set
that rule. Oh, really?
It was some Scottish athletics. Ian BE was chairman of Scottish
athletics at one point. He's now race director of the
West Ham Way and I think he's the chairman of British
athletics now. He he has stated that that has
never been a Scottish athletic rule.
So people need to stop spreading that rumour because it's never
been true sums. At that to bed, so as are all
the other events, say for instance like Cataran and the
yellow poles on those events. It is up to the race director.
Check the rules is up to them is not enforced by Scottish
athletics. Many race directors will still
say no, you're not allowed, so check with the race director.
That's bad enough and definitely should be reading your brief
anyway before, just from a safety point of view and times
and things like that. Yeah, if you look at the Murray
Way ultras, they've been allowing poles for a number of
years. Ever since they moved over to
Kyle being the race director, they've allowed it so.
And the DAVA ways quite soon, I think as well.
November, isn't it? I'm not sure.
I've only, I've only ever done the the relay race, the 100 mile
relay, which is in the middle of summer.
So back to your brother, you ran from 2009, is that correct?
Yes. And then you mentioned after
your marathon you collapsed and said you will never run again.
Moving on from that time in 2018, you were having trouble
breathing and decided to go to the doctor.
And there was a little bit of a decrease in the activity when I
was looking through your DUV last night.
So what happened in that period of time?
I I've got a hill outside my house and whenever I was running
up it I was getting slower and I run a lot with Rob Sinclair,
previous guest, West Highway record holder on a flat.
I could keep up with him doing 6 minute miles, would be chatting
away. No, no problem.
Soon as we got the hill I'd be walking and he would leave me
for dust and I didn't like it. I had to do something about it
and it wasn't fitness, it was something else.
So went to the doctor, 1st doctor said I had a cold and I
was like, well this has been going on for six to eight weeks
now. No, I went to another doctor and
they said OK, we'll send you to ear, nose and throat and
cardiology. We don't know what it is.
We'll send you to both of them. See which comes up first.
Ear, nose and throat, you wait a year before you get an
appointment with them. Cardiology was six months, so I
was lucky and that their queue was so long that they had sent
somebody down from Inverness on a Sunday to try and clear some
of their backlog. And he was a runner.
He got me on, I think it was ECG, so measured my heart rate
and couldn't see anything. Had me on a stress test on a
treadmill and nothing. And he's like, because he was a
runner, he said right, there's something not right here.
Used to be able to do that and do that.
We're going to find out what it is.
So he sent me for ACT scan and they put a needle in to get the
isotope into you. You'll probably know more about
it than me. I've had enough of them,
honestly. Yeah, You put the needle in, Did
I stop? I was fine.
They did the scan, not a problem afterwards.
It's a big memory now. I can't see why they would be
taking a needle out afterwards. But anyway, after the scan they
said, oh, sit there for 15 minutes just to make sure
everything's OK. I was wearing my garment, told
me my heart rate and I watched as it was 32, I'm dropping.
And I said, nurse, there's something not right here.
So I said, oh, come in, lie down, we'll see what's
happening. And they had to take me in.
I couldn't walk. It was, I was feeling that
dizzy. And they said, OK, we'll get
your bed. You're not going home tonight.
But it meant that they looked at the results there and then they
probably would have found what they found anyway, but they
looked at it straight away and they went, oh, there's something
not right there. We're not entirely sure what it
is, but that's not right. Various scans, my perfusion
scan, MRI scans and God knows what else.
Later found out I had a aberrant coronary artery, right Coronary
artery. So the my right artery is
growing out of the left side but it's going round and doing what
it needs to do. But 2 problems is it takes a
route that goes through other, let's call them pipes.
And if those pipes squeeze then that artery gets blocked.
When you get blocked artery, you have a heart attack or cardiac
death as it's actually called. And yeah, don't survive the the
other problem was it was going in at an acute angle.
So rather than going in a right angle, it was going in at like
30° or something. I'm not entirely sure.
So after various scans and doctor's appointments and
whatever else, having met several ultra runners in the
process, because they're they're doing your ultrasound on your
heart, they're doing your angiogram, they're sticking a
wire in your heart and watching you on the monitor and then you
talk to them about a race later on.
So there can't be too much wrong with ultra running if the all
the cardiologists are doing it. But yeah, I had an operation,
the artery still in the wrong place, but it's going in at the
correct angle now. So I I've had CT scans
afterwards and other scans afterwards.
And as far as they're aware, I've got a fully functioning
heart. And in my head somebody else
that is on the start line hasn't had that assurances.
So I know that I'm OK. They haven't because I was just
a random person on the street that had a problem.
Well, they might be the same so, but if anything has came out of
this, I would say that if anybody's got any symptoms
that's to do with your heart or anything serious like that, go
with the doctor and don't give in.
Don't let them tell you there's nothing wrong with you.
If there's actually something like don't tell, don't let them
tell you it's a cold. It's your health.
Go to the doctor. Don't be.
Don't be a man about it and go and get yourself sorted out.
No, for sure. And that goes with anything like
lumps, bumps, anything that's not right.
Definitely if even if the first line at the GP tries to brush it
off, persist with it. Definitely get a specialist
referral as you're saying and get it checked out exactly
because it is scary. Even as a health professional,
it's a scary thing to go through.
In some ways as a health professional, it can be worse
because anything that Joe Public hasn't thought of, we've seen,
you know, so from time of diagnosis to your operation,
what was the time frame roughly for that?
It was from first diagnosis. I had to wait about six months
to get an MRI scan. Right.
And from the point MRI scan, it was probably another maybe three
months after that, something like that.
After the MRI scan, it was pretty quick and the MRI scan
wasn't strictly needed. But the initial doctor didn't
want to give the people in Glasgow any chance of turning
around and saying, no, you're not getting it.
They want to give them the full packs and say that this is
everything you need to know. So I think if I wasn't doing
what I was doing, running, they might have said, Oh well, just
don't run and you'll be fine. That leads on to what I was
getting at with the time scale for the nine months.
So you knowing that you've got this thing going on in your
heart and you're waiting on your MRI scan, you're waiting on your
operation, what then happens with the running and the
fitness? Were you scared to go out in
case it was just bang, that's it, it's done?
Or could you still do gentle exercise?
I got told to take it easy. Taking it easy meant that I
started the tunnel I got to. It's a it's advertised at a 200
mile race. It's actually 214 because each
length is ever so slightly more than a mile.
So over 200 lengths, it's 214 miles.
I got to halfway and my wife and daughter were going to the zoo
and they were, they were there to pick me up at the end.
And I thought, this is pretty boring, so I'm going to go to
the zoo instead. And that was my first ever DNF,
my only ever DNF if you don't count backyards.
So as I put it down to more of a psychological thing, yeah, I
knew. I knew in my head that I used
them as an excuse that I was bored and they were doing
something more fun. That was my excuse.
What I think I got told to take it easy and I shouldn't have
been running. Maybe I shouldn't have been
running. Maybe that's what it was.
But it's quite handy to have, as you say, you have ultra runners
as doctors, healthcare professionals, those people to
give you advice. And that ties in with as well,
like, you know, your own body. But is there any advice that you
could give any people out there that are maybe going through
something not quite so similar, but maybe they've had some sort
of diagnosis where it's completely flipped the world
upside down? Because I know for myself.
I'm very, very fortunate touch Woods.
I'm healthy as far as I know that I've run for my mental
health. That is absolutely number one
for me, like going out for a run and I've I was told that I
couldn't or I've had to scale it back.
I would really struggle with that.
So do you have any advice for anyone out there having been
through that yourself? In, in terms of running or
general fitness, the fitter you are, the more likely you are to
recover from it. So the best chance, like you may
never need an operation like I did.
I had to get my chest opened up and my heart was somebody held
my heart in their hand. I've yeah, I can say that Blase.
Now, at the time, it's like my heart was stopped and I, I
technically got a blood transfusion because they took my
blood, cleaned it and put it back into me.
So I never got somebody else's blood.
It was my blood, but the, my, my heart was stopped.
I, the, the reason why I survived it, why I survived it
quickly, recovered quickly is because I was fit.
And during the MRI scans, they could see that that was evident
that that they, without knowing my history or certain doctors
looking at the scans, they go, oh, he's, he's fit, he's
athletic because your heart enlarges.
And they could tell that, right. So in terms of getting out the
hospital, I had the operation on the Tuesday and I was home on
the Friday. And the only reason I wasn't
home earlier was because you've got to pass certain tests.
You've got to. I went through high dependency
and all the different levels of wards, different levels of care
and then it was just a you're here until you pass you.
You had to walk around the ward twice or something like that.
I got bored and I was walking around it every 5 minutes.
Rather than going to the hospital.
Kind of yes, there there was. I had a remote heart rate
monitor and one of the nurse, I was standing chatting to
somebody and one of the nurses came running down the corridor
because they thought I was having a heart attack and I was
standing there chatting. I didn't know what was taught
what, what was going on. So I don't know what was wrong
with the measurement. But as far as I was concerned,
my heart rate was fine. Having my watch now tells me my
heart rate and I haven't had it probably in the last year or so,
but I did have a a few times heart rate just randomly spikes
and then within two minutes it disappears.
So is that what happened in the hospital?
I, I, I don't know, but no, no doctors ever been able to tell
me that there's anything off that so.
Do you have a heart rate monitor like round for your chest when
you're out running or do you just go off the wrist based one?
Just the wrist based one because I find that chest based one
increases my heart rate so it's giving me a false reading.
People say that the wrist based 1 isn't that accurate.
Well either is the chest based one if it's messing up with the
reading. Yeah, so, but no, you're, I
can't remember what you're asking you're saying about
recovery. No, the time frame, the reason
why I thought the tunnel was psychological is because six
days later I did a different 100 mile race.
So physically I knew that I was capable of it.
So and you asked something else. I can't remember what it.
Was just advice for anyone that's going through something
similar from diagnosis to getting the nopa, what have you
and you said about being fitter and the more fit you.
Are be be as fit as possible, and don't let anybody tell you
that there's nothing wrong with air when there actually is.
And the last part of like this question on this topic, are you
beating Rob Sinclair uphills now?
He's had a baby less than a year ago, so he never gets out
anymore. So yes, you are.
So this is a public outcry, Rob, you're listening, which I hope
you are. Let's let's get a date set.
I think he'll still beat me. No more.
No, no problem at all. But yes, we should run more.
Definitely. So what was your first event
after having your huge heart operation?
I'm not entirely sure. Let me have a look.
It might have. Was it the tunnel?
I'm not sure if in 2020 because everything was cancelled for
COVID wasn't it? Yeah.
I'm wondering if there was a relay for the 33 or something
like that in the March that you done in 2020, which would have
been right before lockdowns. No, according to DUV.
My first race back was Suffolk Backyard.
Right. I was my first backyard and I
honestly didn't know what I was doing.
I only signed up to it two weeks before the actual race because
on the I I'd never even considered doing it.
And the on Facebook page there was a notification came up
saying, oh, there's only two weeks to the race day.
Entries close tonight. Oh, entries close tonight.
Oh, I'm interested in doing that.
I'll do it. I had trained to do personal
challenge that everybody was doing during lockdown, doing
FKTS and stuff like that. So I I had trained to do that
which was all the Monroe's over 9000 feet, 9000, yeah, 9000
feet, is that right? Yes, in Scotland.
So there's nine of them in total, five in the Cairngorms
and four in the Nevis range of cabbage.
So like cabbage, Yeah. And 80 miles in between them.
So I, I trained to do that, went to do Suffolk instead because I
thought I, I hadn't, I hadn't done enough preparation for the
9 thousands. So I'm going to do the backyard
instead. It'll be easy.
Why not? I went into it and honestly, I
didn't have a clue. I brought a deck chair.
It was hot, so I brought a brolly as a sun shade and I had
a box of food and that was it. No crew, no nothing.
Got a 25 or 26 yards and I'd had enough.
I wasn't enjoying myself because I hadn't prepared for it.
And if you ask the race director, Lindley, he'll say oh,
it was too hot and blah, blah, blah.
That was my excuse. I'll be honest, I didn't have a
clue what I was doing and I gave up early.
But the key thing is I learned from it and I improved the next
time and I went back and it took me 5 backyards before I actually
knew what I was doing. Various different things I did
wrong and yeah, but to answer your question, Suffolk backyard
hundreds. So is that 2021?
2021 operation was 25th of February 2020, which was three
weeks before the first national lockdown in the UK.
And yeah, in terms of, yeah, operation was on the Tuesday
25th and got out on the Friday and come back to what I was
saying, because it all comes round again.
You had to do certain tasks before you get out of the
hospital. And one of them was go for a poo
because if you have anesthetic and you don't go for that, then
you've got problems because your body's all bummed up.
So I was on cocktails or laxatives because they wanted to
allow me to go home as much as I wanted to go home.
So on the Friday we got out and went to the national running
show on the Saturday in the SEC in Glasgow, which was packed and
probably shouldn't have went there.
No, Later finding out that COVID was on the go, enclosed
environment, I was vulnerable. Immune system was shot there.
Yeah, shouldn't have been there. A good test off for that.
Yeah. And it's a shame you didn't know
about your oats back then. That might have helped you get
out of there. I'll.
Yeah, maybe, but the the weird thing is that I went to see a
friend, Tim, who owns Chia Charge, and his main business is
flapjacks, which are oats, and it's the one thing that I can't
eat So. But he he makes other stuff.
Jelly chews really like them. Get on with them.
They've not got always in them, but they've got other chia seeds
and stuff in them so well. If you've got any leftover
flapjacks, send them my way. I won't eat anything.
So you say the Suffolk backyard. You seen the you had one day
left before you could sign up to it, and you signed up to it.
How did you find it? And did you know about the
backyard concept at all before? No.
You hadn't held all but like. I think I'd heard of it, but I
didn't know about it. I didn't know how to run it.
I didn't know what I was doing. I was, yeah, I must have heard
about it. But I I knew the race director
Lindley, because he was the medic of some of Mark Cobain's
events. And I think it was because he he
had posted it on Facebook. That was the only reason I heard
about it. Right.
That's and then it leads on to what we're going to speak about
for the duration of the interview.
So on learning that, I've been allowed to interview you.
I've. Asked a couple of people if they
have any questions for you. Funnily enough it's people that
are interested in backyard ultras.
So my first question is from Ross Beveridge who is on Team
Scotland. They've just recently won
Cowshed, so well done to them. He would like to know and he
must know what you do for a job. How many backyard related
spreadsheets do you have on file?
Well, first of all, I've, I've ran for Scotland five times I
think. I've never won it.
I didn't run this year and they won it.
I must be a bad omen or something.
I was going to say that's because Ross was on the team.
No spreadsheets. I've got a spreadsheet for every
year that I've done backyards, but each of them have got a
different tab for each race, each nutrition, each the start
list and various things. I think this year's one's got
about 14 tabs in the one spreadsheet.
And then there's a different spreadsheet.
It's actually a Word document for the nutrition plan and the
instructions for any crew that I've got, but not just crew.
If I'm doing it so low, that Word document is for me because
if I write it down when I'm in a healthy state, if I'm 40 hours
in, then it's written there. I don't need to think about it.
Yeah. And do you fill that out?
This is a question from me. This is a safe question.
Do you fill that out like in a pad or something like that when
you go back to the 10? Or do you have your computer
with you and how you're feeling? I've got it printed out and
things like paracetamol. I take it so that if I have
paracetamol at 10:00, I know not to take it for four hours.
Yeah. So tick box, I know not 4-4
hours after that, then it's. OK.
But that's all we planned as to what you're having.
I don't plan when I'm having like paracetamol, I'll take it
when I do have it so that it might be me and it might be like
this time I would take it at what say say 10:00.
Yeah, if if Annette came back, she could look at the same
clipboard and see, OK, you're not allowed it until then, but
only give it to me when I ask for it.
So you got that's printed out and you guys take things off and
yeah, I know that's quite bored. That's what I was meaning the
fellow after each lap. Oh, I'm feeling great, this is
working or I'm feeling rubbish. Or do you have a feelings chat?
There's one column for food and that is what I'm going to eat
that time. And I try to stick to that as
much as possible. It usually gets 24 hours in.
You're not necessarily eating what you said you were going to
eat, but I try to and you might get back on to it.
But there's also a blank. So if I feel like, I don't know,
my knee started hurting, I might write that down so that I can
say or I was sick. Was that to do with the food I
was having at that time? But one thing that I did, I
think it was after a Highlander two years ago, I had something
like 35,000 calories. Right.
It's nonsense like that, that you can well, that that doesn't
mean anything to anybody. But would you would you advise
taking a crew? Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.
If you can get a crew, then it's much easier down to I, I was
doing 4043 minute, 45 minute, laps, yards, whatever you want
to call them and I would come in, have something to eat and
lie down. Every time people would say that
I'm going out too fast. No, that's how I felt
comfortable doing it. And then I was able to lie down.
If I was on my own, then I'm too paranoid to sleep.
Even if I've got my alarm set, my phone's sitting next to my
ear, alarm set with two minutes to go, and I know that I can
hear the whistle as well. I'm too paranoid, but, but at
least I'm lying down. And to me, lying down is better
than not lying down. But if you've got a crew,
they're responsible for waking you up and the paranoia just
disappears and you can get 10 minutes sleep and it makes so
much difference. So we've got another listener
question. This one is from Kayleigh
Webster, who is fairly new to the backyard scene and she has
golf spay this weekend. So good luck.
To Kayleigh, good luck. What hard question is for you is
how do you figure out a pace that suits a certain backyard
ultra course and do you have any walking strategies?
What works for you? Yeah, first of all, good luck to
Fiona as well, who's gone up to Gosby and everybody else.
Good luck to Nikki and Ian, whose previous guests.
Gosby. I did it last year.
Yes, it was cold, so prepare for it to be cold.
But for Gosby, I would. For me, I was running it at 9
minute miles. I looked at the Strava map
beforehand and knew where the hills were.
Significant hills and first half mile I think it is, is
completely flat and then you're on a gradual hill.
Different times in the race depending on when it was.
I would run halfway up the hill and then walk the rest and what
what I normally do is run the lap at a pace that I feel
comfortable and most of my runs are at 9 minute miles ish,
something like that. So that's the pace that I feel
comfortable at. And for Lisa Gosby, I got to a
certain point at 20 minutes and then I got to the end at 40
minutes. So I knew that point where I was
earlier. As long as I'm there by 30
minutes because that's my halfway point, then I can finish
the lap. So I can adjust my walking
strategies based on that. But normally I for me I would
prefer to get in with 10 minutes to spare, so I would base my
time on a 50 minute lap and walk it around that.
Or run it, walk it, whichever you need to do.
Thanks for answering that. And to echo you, good luck to
everybody during the event this weekend.
I know the last year's was the first one that they've done.
I'd be looking forward to doing it in the future at some point
for sure. Hopefully you get the Northern
Lights this year because we did, even though I never saw them at
all. So that would be.
Really nice. Yeah, at some time during the
night, apparently the Northern Lights were out, but I didn't
see them but as because I didn't look for them.
Heads up to Nikki and Ian if there's a warning for them, tell
the runners about it because we want to see it.
There's a lot of lap as well. Last year where they dressed up
or there was hats or something like that.
I can remember that now. They had a silly lap.
I can't. I think I was wearing a Teenage
Mutant Ninja Turtles hat. Yeah.
I can't remember which lap it was.
It might be in like lap three or something like that.
Is that in the race? I think it might have been
something that Australians do and it is becoming more and more
popular throughout the world. Is lap 22 you wear a Tutu?
Nice. So I've never done it myself,
but one person was doing it at Suffolk the other week.
Brilliant. So you're talking about Suffolk.
That leads us on really nicely to the event that you spoke
about at the start of the interview.
So backyards, I'm very, very new.
I've never done 1 and I didn't realise that until you were down
at the weekends. Was asking Ross, Kayleigh,
everybody all different questions about it.
Didn't even realise there was a whole format to getting into the
UK team. So how is it that you got
selected for it and can you touch on as well for other
listeners and viewers? What is the deal with bronze and
silver tickets I've held of? Yeah, well, first of all, you
haven't done 1 yet. Yet so.
Yeah, get that sorted out and. That is a warning to the family.
Right. First of all, what you didn't
ask was there is a Four Nations Championship, right?
And that is Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales.
And if you've done it used to be 24 yards, it's now low to mid
30s or more than the team selector for for the Scotland
team anyway, we'll be in touch with you.
And how that works is each year it's in a different location.
This year was cow shed. I think next year is Highlander.
So there are, I don't know what the rules are for next time, but
previously has been 10 people on a team.
There has to be at least two females.
I would prefer it to be probably 6 people on a team and three and
three. So 3 males, 3 females and but
you're never going to get it right.
Everybody's going to have something to say about it.
But but we'll see. And every lap that you do is one
point for your team. So if you have 10 people doing a
lap, then it's 10 points and the other teams will be the same.
And you keep on going until there's two people in your team
and the last person is only allowed to do one more because
they're the last person standing for that team usually.
And it always has been so far. The, the, the Four Nations is
part of a bigger race. So the Highlander race is on
when the Highlander race is on and the Four Nations is tagged
onto it as well, right? The somebody who is running for
a team can keep on running and win the event as an individual
and that's what I did in what was Lionsgate is now called Pig
in the Hill, Scotland. All the other Scottish runners
had stopped but I kept on running and I won the race
right. So technically I was the Welsh
champion that year, but that got forgotten about when it wasn't
the Welshman that won it. Yeah.
So not saying anything there. I I won Highlander in the same
year, so I won the Scottish Championship.
So that's more important to me. Yeah, right.
Moving on. So that sorts out the. 4.
Nations. Four Nations.
This year I did right a bronze event, a bronze event.
Usually I'm not sure bronze events actually mean anything.
Usually if you win a bronze event and they are picked by
somebody who is a faceless person in America somewhere who
says you applied for it, you can be a bronze event.
Sometimes a bronze event gets you a place in a silver ticket
event. It's not a guarantee, it's just
sometimes that happens. So the likes of Highlander might
have got you a free place into Russellbach or something like
that. It's not a guarantee.
Russellbach was a silver ticket event.
So this the last year Russellbach, Highlander, Pig in
the Hill and Suffolk were all silver ticket events, right?
And a silver ticket is a guaranteed spot on the UK team.
Right. So I won Russellbach with 42
yards, so I got a guaranteed spot in the team.
And Thomas, who gone previous guest, one Highlander, he got a
guaranteed spot in the team in Bethune, one pig in a Hill,
guaranteed spot in the team. He only got 27 yards, which
wouldn't have been enough to qualify in the other way, which
I'll tell you about in a second. The last race was Suffolk.
It was won by a Polish guy called Lucas.
Because he was Polish, the silver ticket was null and void,
so nobody. The second place was Matt
Blackburn. He was UK.
Because he didn't win, he doesn't get the prize, didn't
get silver ticket. The other way of entering the
team is being on the at large list.
So the team is made-up of 15 people.
So you take away what is now 3 silver tickets.
That leaves 12 on the at large list right now.
Matt would have been top of the at large list because he had 87
or 88 yards. I had 42 from Russell Bock, but
I had a silver ticket, so my 42 didn't matter if I had scored 27
like Ian did because he had a silver ticket.
The other people on the team had to score in the top 15 in the
country or the top 12 in the country because there was 12
spaces. So it got to about, I think it
was 37 yards was the minimum you had to score to be in the at
large list. And if somebody like Matt
Blackburn was doing spot Athlon 3 weeks before the UK race.
So he decided not to do it right to be honest.
He's got a place in the World Championship the following year.
So he didn't need to, it was it was up to him.
He didn't need to choose need to do it so.
That's quite chivalrous. I say chivalrous like it's
quite. It's not chivalrous.
Maybe like the wrong one, but good that he's actually given
someone else a chance on the team because as you say, if he's
got a ticket anyway then let someone else have a go.
You could say it like that. Yeah.
Yeah, that's, yeah, definitely good of them.
And just to touch on as well, how going back to the Four
Nations, how you say you would have comprised of three females,
3 males, I think the likes of Sarah Perry and Megan Ecker have
smashed that glass ceiling for female ultra runners.
Karen, Nicole as well, all spectacular runners.
Even with Sarah winning the UK version, I'm unaware.
You probably are, but Sarah the only female winner in the world.
Only female winner of a national championship.
Yeah. Yes, as far as I'm aware, yes
there have been. Sarah herself has won backyard
ultras, but as far as I'm aware she's the only female winner of
a national championship. That's incredible.
Karen fights for getting 2 separate categories, male and
female and I I don't want to get involved with that debate, no,
whether there should be male or female because I'm not going to
win that. It's not an argument that I'm
qualified for, no SO. I think if you get sensible
people that can, I suppose to an extent, agree to disagree like
I've heard in the past, like touching on my own research, I
can. I've heard that Lass has said he
doesn't want to split the categories up because he wants
to push the ladies all that much further, and I understand that,
but at the same time I understand Karen's viewpoint as
well. Las's argument is in the past
when races have given a place for first female and 1st male,
if the female is the only one left, then they'll stop because
they've won the first female prize.
They won't go on and win the overall prize because they don't
need to. Whether that's true or not,
well, Sarah Perry won the team championship.
So whether it's true or not, for me, what I believe should happen
is we should be putting as much effort as possible into getting
more females to do the race. I, I don't, I don't necessarily
agree with splitting the categories up.
If that happens, then it, it wouldn't affect me at all.
I'll still be racing. But I think getting people to do
the races is is the main thing. Yeah, for sure, definitely.
So going back to the UK team, this elections happened that you
know each other beforehand, you and the other 14 people.
Did you know of the people even through social media and person?
How, how did that work out as a team?
I knew of pretty much all of them.
I didn't know them personally. I knew Sarah Perry from previous
races. I knew Ian and Julie Bethune,
the only married couple in the World championship.
I believe Karen Nickel have known her through various races
throughout the years. I'm sure I'm missing somebody
else, but the others I, I didn't know most of them like Richard
Thompson, he was at Russell Bock.
I don't think we ever talked during the race.
So I knew of him, but I didn't know that.
So I, we were getting closer and closer to the race and we hadn't
talked other than there's various Facebook groups, but you
don't chat. So I took it upon myself and I
set up a WhatsApp group just for the basics of where are people
staying the night before. What cheap hotels can you get?
I I booked mine. So I told them where I had
booked three or four others booked the same hotel because it
was cheaper than most places that in that part of the
country. Yeah, so, but in, in terms of
the team, it it was Auk team, but we were all competing to get
a ticket to Biggs. So the the bronze gets you might
get you into a silver, the silver gets you into the UK
team. If you win the UK team, you get
a gold and you go to Biggs and Biggs is the world Championship
in Tennessee next year. Yeah.
So that's, that's your gold ticket as far as probably 90% of
the event, we were all just in a race against the 14 other people
in the team. I'm not convinced that I, I
think if you were in America, Australia or Belgium, maybe a
few other teams going for the top places you worked as a team.
Yeah, I, I can't say it for most countries, but I think most
people were just looking to win the ticket, the bigs.
And that's what I was doing anyway.
So most people were just being more individual rather than
working together as a team, you would say, like even throughout
the other countries. Because when, as I say, I'm very
new to all of this. So the weekends that you were
all the way there and I was watching and the Belgians just
kept on going and going and got to the point where I looked at
my phone and there was three of them still in it.
And I just, oh, there's three in it.
It's not done. And then I've got told later on,
no, they're all done, they all finished together.
Oh, right, that makes more sense.
Like they seem to all work together as a team.
Do you think that had, say, for instance, the UK, if you became
more together as a team, do you feel that one, you might have
got more yards and two, do you think you would have all pushed
each other on that little bit further?
I think for me personally, I don't think I would have got
more yards for different reasons.
But I think as a team we probably it's difficult because
I don't know how you would work together as a team.
Do you all run together? And I think that's what Belgium
are doing up to a point. I'm not entirely sure and I
don't know what else you can do. The I, I stopped the race, what
I considered early. I was disappointed in myself
when I stopped after 32 yards due to injury.
And Ian and Karen and John Stalker, they all asked me is
there anything that they can do? And kudos to them.
There wasn't anything they could do, but at least they asked.
Yeah. And it's probably more than I
would have done. So I, I, I would like to think
that I would help somebody else. But would I, I don't know.
It's at somebody else out of the race because in all honesty, it
was a race. So, but it should have been a
team. So what, what was it a race or a
team? I don't know.
I think if if we had the likes of say the four nation
championship where you've got England against Scotland,
there's more sort of team rivalry there.
So you work together as a team. Yeah.
Because you're not necessarily like England will obviously
think that they are winning. Usually in football they they
are going out to win. Scotland are just there to take
part and be England. So is that so if we were a
Scottish team in the event, would we get better because of
that? I think we probably would.
Whether that's what needs to happen or not, I don't know.
Whether ever will happen, I don't know.
You say the the guys asked you is there anything that they
could have done and you say there that's probably more than
what I would have done going forward.
Having been on the other side of that, has that changed your
attitudes for backyards in the future?
Going forward now what are you more likely to help someone
that's maybe got their head down or?
Yes, it depends when it is, if it's at the start line, yes,
definitely. I, I and it is something that I
do at the moment. I try and get them to keep
going. Back at Russellbach earlier in
the year, when Sarah said she was stopping, I tried to say no,
don't. But she'd already she she wasn't
stopping during due to injury, She was stopping because she had
to go to work. So there there was nothing that
I could have done. There was no, no convincing her.
But I did try. So at that sort of time, yes.
But during the lap, I can't remember who it was that said
that. Do you want us to run with you?
But you need to keep up because we need to also finish.
It's like, no, you, you go away and do your thing.
I'm OK. I'm you running with me is not
going to make me any faster. So you go and you, you do you.
It's, it's fine. But I, I, I was grateful for the
offer, but there wasn't anything that they could do.
No, if you're injured, you're injured.
Yeah. And one of my questions that
will lead on nicely to that is how did you know that that was
injury and not in your heads? I it might have been in my head,
I'm not 100% but I did 4 laps and my at the time it it was
this a quad muscle just above my right knee on the left hand
side. It was getting shorter and sore
every, every lap that I did. And I got it taped up, I took
painkillers, I did various things and it was getting sorer
and sorer every lap. It got to that point that I was
feeling sick. It was so sore, I was feeling
sick. And to me that I whether that
got into my head and I finished, I might have been able to do
more. But if I did do more, would I
have been worse off now? I I need to keep telling myself
that I did 32 yards. That was 130 something miles.
Most races that would win. So.
It's just because these this was the the best of the best in the
UK, so I I shouldn't be ashamed of what I did, but not.
At all. I'm barely disappointed in
myself with my performance and in a way that makes me want to
do better next time. Which has a motivation.
Yeah, I know. I know how I felt not winning,
which makes me want to win so. Now.
The knee is, well actually we were staying in the van for five
days after the race and I was putting out the rock'n'roll bed
and something hadn't clicked into place.
So I, I was kneeling on the bed and it dropped.
So I basically went from probably about how high is it,
40 centimetres, kneeling straight down and landed on my
knee. I can still feel that.
I can't really feel the pain from the race.
Yeah, it's like we've got a carpet in the van and it feels
like carpet van. I basically knee dropped 40
centimetres, full body weight and that hurts.
But on the other hand, my left Achilles, I've deliberately been
taking rest. I'll probably take two weeks
rest. My left Achilles is, if that had
been that sore during the race and thinking about it now, I
think it actually was because I put on a compeed onto my heels
because it felt like I had massive blisters.
But I took my socks off and there was nothing there.
But it was because it was the tendon going up to my Achilles.
It was that. It was that that was sore.
Was I compensating for that? And that's why my knee was sore?
To be honest, it doesn't matter. I just want to fix it.
So yeah, at the moment, rest is the best thing I can do.
And then I'll work on leg strength.
Yeah, I, I do a lot of sort of weight weight lifting, cross
training, and I probably do more core and upper body than I do
leg. Should I move to more leg?
I reckon that I get enough of that with the running.
It's probably the wrong thing. I think so I I don't know.
We'll see what happens. If it's one thing I'm finding is
definitely still train the legs to make them stronger.
I know what you're saying with the running, but definitely
build on the muscle just to make everything that little bit
stronger, reinforce it. And then as we previously
discussed in the last episodes, it's injury prevention as well.
Did you end up changing your shoes?
You said that you were taking down, was it 4 pairs of shoes
and eight pairs of socks? How did that work?
Yeah, I think I even had 10 pairs of socks.
But yes, I had four pairs of shoes.
I had two identical ones. And I think about probably about
100 miles. I I I've got it written down on
the clipboard but I've not looked at it.
I changed into ones that were slightly more cushioned thinking
will it make any difference and I don't know if it did or not.
The other pair that I had were identical to them but half size
bigger and I I didn't even go near them.
They've they've never been born so probably a good thing that
didn't go near them. So I've got the other listener
question, that's one as from one of your team mates, Luke Carter
and what he would like to know as this is going to be something
that only the other 14 of you can answer that you like the
course. I I probably would have
preferred it if it was slightly Hillier or slightly more
technical, but just out of boredom.
There were sections in it, there was long straight.
It wasn't even Land Rover tracks.
They were compressed, gripped, but they were built up in the
middle which caused a camber. And did that disrupt my knee?
I'm not sure. I would try to run in the middle
where you're at the top of the hill looking at it.
Normally there's not hill, but when you're running for 24 hours
you notice there's a camber on that road.
So it's it wasn't my favorite course.
No. No.
So would you say it was quite an easy technical?
It wasn't technical at all. It was quite an easy, runnable
course. It was easy, runnable and there
are going to be some big miles done on it.
And is that why you were probably the set?
You were the set world second fastest yard and yard 2.
Was that intentional or was it still you getting a feel for the
course and adrenaline and what have you?
I, I was, I was told that fact, but I'm not not sure how much to
believe of it because some of the countries, their
spreadsheets weren't updating quick enough.
So when I was told it might have been that somebody else's
spreadsheet hadn't uploaded their time yet.
But anyway, I, yes, I, I thought, I think it was
something like 39 minutes with my first, my fastest lap.
And for an early lap that was fine.
I felt 20 minutes to lie down. And that was the key thing.
I was eating and lying down every single lap that I had time
to do it. And would Annette and Florida
with you the whole time? Were they sleeping in the tent
or the van or? They they were sleeping in the
van, which was about 200 meters away, but they, they weren't
there the whole time. You can't ask a six year old to
crew for you because they get bored.
They won't they they were there and it was, I was grateful for
what they gave me, but they weren't there the whole time.
Some of the time they went horse riding.
And then after I finished and because you're in a tent, other
people can hear. Flora started crying.
And what? Why?
Why are you crying, Flora? Well, why?
You don't need to be sad for me. I I thought Daddy was going to
be running for another day. I was like, that's all right.
You don't need to be sad. He was like, no, it means that I
can't get swimming anymore. And then you know what, See,
like the next day I was going to text you.
I heard Flora crying. Is it because she was sad or was
it just being a mum? I'm like that.
I have Wayne is shattered. She, she, it, it was like 9:30,
ten o'clock at night. She was shattered.
Yeah, I kind of thought that as well.
Thought. Oh, cool, we laugh.
She must be Absolutely floored after her dad ran for all that
time. It is exhausting.
But it was nice to see it like heat run and see it on the live
feed. Even had to, you know, I was
absolutely hooked on that. Hardly anything got done in my
house on Saturday because it was like trying to fit 40 minutes in
of housework. And it is amazing what you can
get done in those 40 minutes because nothing happens when you
sit all the way. That's it.
And it's just looking at the clock and you're like, oh,
right, it's no clock. And then one of the yards where
you came back, Florida was waiting for you.
And you're like, oh, when I texted you saying when you've
run X number of yards and you're an awesome author, but then
bang, you're reminded you're a bed.
And. Yeah, she I crossed the line and
she gave me a big hug, but her height meant she she just hugged
my legs. So I had to walk with her
hanging off my legs. Yeah, as as much as you can't
expect somebody of that age to be crewing for you, she
absolutely loved it. She, she just the environment
there. She, she loved being there.
So. And it wasn't for sure that I
think she was speaking to even I held Karen saying hello to her.
I don't know. But I don't know if I'd helped
us say, have you looked after my Dolly or something like that?
Had Karen gave her a doll or something?
I, I don't know where before the start of the race, Karen said,
oh, can you look after this for me?
So she was looking after her little doll.
I don't know why Karen had it with her, whether it was her
lucky mascot or whatever. So yeah, Flora had a had
somebody to look after her, not just me.
It was nice, though, that she was, you know, getting involved
that way as well. As you say, it's like the team
collective, you know, you're all racing individually, but at the
same time even to the point. And it's not just backyard
ultras, ultra running in general.
And I've heard that more on the West Highland way the crews come
together. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
If anybody had needed it, then I would have been there to help
them after I'd finished. I would have easily accrued for
them. But everybody had somebody.
I know the next day after I had a very cold sleep in my tent, I
left the net to go to the van with Flora and I slept in the
tent but didn't take a sleeping bag.
I had my dryer open. That was it freezing.
Somebody gave me their a sleeping bag, but there's still
I wasn't warm the next day. Thomas was having bad thoughts
and I had a word with him but he had crew so that was was all I
could do was talk to him and leave them to do their job.
Yeah. So how long did you stay for
once you'd finished? When did you leave the event?
We finished on the Sunday night and it was Monday, Monday
lunchtime ish that we left. Yeah, because we went to the
cafe at lunchtime on the on the Monday, got a hotel nearby for
that night just so we can get a shower.
And then we went and stayed in a campsite in the van halfway up
the road for four days on on the way up the road.
And the floor I get swimming. She the the campsite was
deliberately chosen that it had a swimming pool, so she got
every day over there. Oh, that was good then.
And that would help Johnny as well.
Yeah, if they had a sauna or a hot tub it would have been fine,
but no, it was just a basic swimming pool.
Oh fantastic. So do you have anything planned
in the calendar moving forwards? Running wise, no.
I was deliberately keeping everything blank there.
There's Razzleback next year, I've got a place in that because
I won it. I've got a place do I want to go
back to Suffolk again? And I think the at large list
for bigs because there's two ways to qualify for bigs.
You can either win your team championship or there's 25
spaces on the at large list, so the 25 next best or maybe best
because Sarah won it in 59 yards.
But Matt has got a place as well with his 88788.
So if you're up in the 80s then you can go to Biggs.
Do I do stuff? I can try and get that.
I'll see how my Achilles is. Hopefully.
I haven't looked up whether they've announced the silver
ticket events for, I think it's bronze events this year and
silver tickets next year. So would I do that?
But the other thing I've got a I'm a member of the local Rowing
Club, withdraw offshore skiffs and we are in the World
Championship next summer. So do I concentrate on that?
I don't know. So you've got an open day there
for now. For now, For now, I've got
absolutely nothing planned. I'm going to stag night on
Saturday and it's probably the first time that I've had alcohol
in six months. I think it's the second time in
a year. That'll be interesting there.
Yeah, the, the, the, the stag night consists of park run in
the morning and various things through the day and I might get
to lunchtime and then I'll be home again because.
We're coming to towards the end of the interview.
I do have two more questions left that I've not quite worked
out well to slip them in. These are kind of anomaly
questions. The first one is one of mine.
I was sent a photo of you when I was starting to get to know the
ultra running community and was told this is my graph and he's
absolutely nuts. This is why you had a dead
squirrel on your backpack. So what is the squirrel story?
Well, there's lots of stories and most of them are not true.
There's a simple answer. Simplest answer is usually the
best answer. And it was during long last
commute, 250 miles. I was 70 miles in and on the
road, in the middle of the road there was a grey squirrel deed.
It had been, I think it had hit the side of a car, a tire or
something like that. It was not alive.
One of the stories that I've heard is I it was alive and I
caught it in my bare hands and I killed it.
No, it wasn't. It was dead.
I, I, I just ran 70 miles. I wasn't capable of catching a
squirrel with my bare hands, but I knew that it hadn't been there
long because it was in the middle of the road.
It would have been squished. So it was fresh.
I've never tasted squirrel before.
So I went and picked it up. I've got the theory that if, if
an animal has lived its best life, it's in the wild and
somebody else has killed it, the best thing that I can do is
suffer as you are, honour it's life by giving it purpose and
feeding me. So some people won't agree with
it, some people vegans. You shouldn't.
That's my thoughts and you're entitled to your own.
So on you go. We I put the squirrel on my
backpack, strapped it in as you read your poles and carried it
for the next 180 miles. And I went into the shop because
you're allowed to go into shops to the race.
And the woman almost refused to serve me.
And it was during the horse meat scandal at the time.
And I was, I had the argument with her that you're willing to
serve that certain brand that was involved in the scandal at
the time, but you won't serve me.
So she served me. Did you give her a name for the
180 miles? It was Boris.
Boris. Yeah, 'cause it's better than
Mr. Johnson. That was I I'd rather be have
that name associated with something that had a purpose.
They'll do. So that is the squirrel story
put to bed. Yeah, last question from us, as
it's the last listener question. I'm probably the one that's
closest to me because this is from Alexis, my daughter, and I
think it's quite a nice one to close on.
What made you start the podcast? Well I started because I hate
asking people to do stuff for me.
I I don't feel comfortable starting conversations.
I will quite happily talk to people if they talk to me.
I just don't feel comfortable. It's a thing that I want to get
over. I want to.
And this podcast was pushing my boundaries.
It was getting forcing me to have this conversation.
We wouldn't be talking now if it didn't happen.
Yeah. So that's it.
It's basically to push me to places that I wouldn't probably
do without it. Well, I think you're doing a
really good job of it. And as you say, I wouldn't have
known about it until meeting yesterday.
You know, I think it was John Cassidy you interviewed because
they mentioned it on Young Hearts that John had been on the
podcast. And that's what then led me
because at the time it was only on YouTube.
So I did actively go onto YouTube to see John's interview
because it was an after an event, was it not?
I can't remember, we were sitting in the back of my van
outside St. Johnstone Football Club, but I.
Can't remember. What the event was, But yeah, it
was. I used to only do it on YouTube
because I thought that I wanted to do interviews in person, not
online, and I wanted to get the human interaction, seeing
people's reactions to it as part of the experience.
But the the the masses of audience demanded that I put it
on podcasts. So that's what has happened.
I'm more glad you have, because now we can listen to you on the
run. Yeah.
So thank you for letting me interview you.
It's been really, really interesting.
And as you said at the start, anyone that knows me knows that
I could talk for hours so. We have been as well, which I
have no complaints about it. It's thank you for doing it.
It'll be good for someone's long run.
So if you manage to get to the end, I hope that you're smashing
it. I hope you've taken on your fuel
if you've not eaten something right now and keep on drinking
your electrolytes. As Sally McRae would say all.
Right, thank you and goodbye. Thank you.