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Hello and welcome back to 
another thrilling episode of Run

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Till You're Done. 
The previous guest was Nikki, as

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you'll see here. 
I don't know which side she's 

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on. 
Good feedback that I got some of

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the highlights for for me were 
she knows how to talk a lot. 

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And another one was it, it felt 
like she was interviewing you, 

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not the other way around. 
So that's what we're going to 

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do. 
She's going to interview me. 

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I've just done a race. 
I've I've know that I've not 

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introduced myself to this 
podcast. 

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So over to Nikki. 
Thanks for letting me come on 

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and ask the questions on your 
behalf. 

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But a lot of us are interested 
in your running journey. 

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As we discussed previously, you 
have been a guest on a previous 

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podcast on Young Hearts from 
Free, but you also said quite a 

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few people still don't listen to
that podcast as well. 

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So it's good to get your 
background on your own podcast. 

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That's nice. 
Yeah, no problem with me. 

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It's if anybody wants to ask a 
question on you. 

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No, definitely we will get 
started on where you usually 

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start and who are you and how 
did you get into run him. 

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Well, I my name is Mike. 
I stay just N Aberdeen, a small 

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well just outside a small former
fishing village called Coliston.

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I I've live on on the coast. 
You can't see from my background

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at the moment, but I'm about 50 
meters from the coast. 

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So if you leave anything 
outside, it rusts, even plastic.

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People say the plastic doesn't 
rust. 

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Yeah, it does here. 
You still haven't tried it yet. 

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I've been running for my first 
run and I document everything. 

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My first run was middle of 
August 2915 years ago. 

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First ultra was maybe a year 
later, maybe under a year later.

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I think 2010. 
So started off doing 10K in 

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Inverness. 
The Inverness 10K had said that 

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they were doing a corporate 
event. 

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So there was a team from my work
going. 

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Somebody said do you want to go 
along or why not go along and 

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join them and never run before. 
But got me into it. 

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I used to do hill walking but 
not running and when we're up in

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the hills you think, look at 
those crazy buggers running past

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you and now look at me. 
Yeah, so did did the 10K. 

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When I finished the 10K the 
marathon was on the same day and

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a friend from work said oh, I'm 
doing Edinburgh Marathon in six 

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months time, fancy joining me 
and why not? 

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Did it and it was a hot day. 
It was I've, yeah, I don't know 

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what happened. 
I collapsed over the finish line

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and said I am never running 
again as you do. 

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I can't remember what date that 
was. 

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Must have been. 
Yeah, I, I don't know what day 

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it was, but that led, I think it
was in the pub actually after 

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that race talking to George Reed
and he convinced me he's a way 

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to start doing a new race in 
Aberdeen where I was standing at

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the time. 
Called the D33 and it's Aberdeen

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to Bancree. 
So 16 1/2 miles. 

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Turn around and if you have to 
phone your mum and tell, tell 

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them if you're quitting, get on 
the bus and go home and or you 

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go back to Aberdeen. 
So 33 miles, simple. 

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It was a no fuss event, none of 
your big crowds in Edinburgh 

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Marathon. 
It was the basics. 

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I think it was 19 LB to enter. 
It was as my kind of race so and

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that that was set up to be part 
of soms, the Scottish Ultra 

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Marathon Series which went on. 
Its purpose was to make ultra 

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marathon running a thing in 
Scotland and it served its 

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purpose. 
So it disbanded after a while. 

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I think I won, won the 
championship in 2014. 

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I think it was, came second a 
few times. 

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But some people thought it was 
unfair. 

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Some people thought it was yeah,
you had to do a certain amount 

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of races, score a certain amount
of points. 

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It was encouraging people at the
time people said, oh, you 

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shouldn't do more than two 
marathons a year. 

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I think one year I did 9 ultras 
or something like that. 

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So it's, it's each of their own.
It depends what you try to get 

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out of it. 
Some of the runs that I did 

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during that time, I was doing 
very much training runs. 

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So does that count? 
I wasn't pushing my body, but 

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yeah. 
And there's a lot of discussion 

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as to whether you should use 
events as training runs. 

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I've done that myself. 
This year was my big goal for 

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the Devil run. 
The Blades 50K was the last long

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run for me. 
I've had feedback. 

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Or you shouldn't use an event as
a training room. 

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But why not, you know? 
You use it for whatever you want

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to use it for. 
You're paying your entry fee, so

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why not? 
Definitely. 

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So going back to that first 10K,
do you remember your time for 

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that? 
53 minutes. 

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So is it at that point you'd 
never ran before, not even at 

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school? 
I yeah, Thinking about it, I 

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used to do some cross country at
school, but that was about 15 

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years previous to that. 
So I don't think, I don't think 

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there was any relationship 
between how I ran then and how I

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ran when I was, what, 29, I 
think. 

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So 53 minutes, a lot of people 
say everyone should say it's all

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relative, which it is for me, 53
minutes, my PB for a 10K, which 

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I am delighted at. 
Did you know from that first run

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how fast and how good you were 
going to be? 

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Like, did you know you were 
going to be a front runner? 

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I from that run, no, I, I didn't
know what I was capable of. 

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I, I thought I was capable of 
being faster. 

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And even at 10, KII wouldn't be 
expecting to win a 10K if I went

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out. 
I don't know if I trained 

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specifically for that type of 
race, but I don't say that I 

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enjoy it. 
I prefer going out on a long 

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run, even if it's slower, so do 
what you enjoy. 

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And was that 10K our own race? 
Yes, it was probably net 

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downhill, completely tarmac. 
So when do you prefer trails 

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Tuta? 
Oh, every time, yeah. 

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It's if there's a choice it 
would be trail every time. 

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And was that spawned from D33 or
was there another event? 

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Or was that just training the 
Spudgeon for the trails? 

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Probably from training D 33 is 
probably 80 to 90% tarmac. 

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The does go on a trails and some
of it but it's flat. 

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It's it's hard compressed grit 
if anything. 

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No. 
I much prefer being out in the 

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hills. 
Like just enjoying Land Rover 

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tracks would be a good thing. 
Rocks and any any hills. 

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So people that know the two of 
us that are listening and or 

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watching the podcast know that 
you and I are very, very 

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different runners. 
You are at the front, you're in.

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It's a winner. 
I go to try and finish it, you 

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know, party at the back and 
hoping to progress a bit 

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further. 
But because everybody they would

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say the ultra running world, 
small circles and you start to 

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find out who are the front 
runners and when you see the 

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names on the list on entry 
central and places like that, 

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all such and such buddies doing 
it or they're going to win, you 

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know, in this charter. 
Do you feel internal and 

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external pressure when people 
perceive? 

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If I saw your name on the list 
of an event that we were doing 

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together, I would expect you to 
be definitely top five, if not 

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top three. 
I, I, I know that the external 

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pressure is there, but honestly 
it doesn't, doesn't affect me 

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because there have been times 
there, there's been external 

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pressure. 
I think once when I was doing 

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the Fling, the Scottish 
Athletics hangers, possibly 

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Adrian, they've written up an 
article about who's going to be 

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in the top whatever and my name 
is mentioned. 

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I brushed off because what he 
didn't know was I was running 

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with a friend and we finished in
about 14 hours. 

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Yeah. 
So it's I, I run my own race, 

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but when I do, yes, I, I feel 
that I put on put on internal 

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pressure on to myself and I 
think that that can be a good 

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thing. 
The race that I just did that 

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I'll talk about later. 
I, I had myself psyched up to 

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win that race. 
There was nothing going to stop 

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me. 
I was going to either win or do 

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the best that I was capable of. 
And a lot of races, that's how 

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if, if I think I've got a chance
of winning, that's the sort of 

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pressure that I'll put on myself
to try and win. 

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May maybe not as extreme as this
time, but that that's our 

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pressure. 
Yeah, we do do see you on 

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Strava. 
We've not so long made Strava 

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friends. 
And you do put the arrows in to 

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your training. 
Is that your own plans or do you

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have a coach? 
And know that coach never have 

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nearest thing I've got is 
running club, but I I use that 

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more as a social running thing 
and intervals. 

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I probably wouldn't do intervals
if I didn't have the running 

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club there to do it. 
But yeah, it's to socialize with

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all the runners basically. 
In terms of coaching, I've had 

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nutrition coach probably, I 
can't remember how long ago it 

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was, probably 12 years ago. 
And they taught me sort of 

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thing. 
But I think that they were 

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learning themselves that they 
hadn't they, they were good at 

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getting people to lose weight or
to get bodybuilders into shape. 

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They hadn't dealt with runners 
before. 

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So they were learning what I was
doing as well as the other way 

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around. 
And to be honest, now I think I 

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know more than they taught me 
then, if that makes sense. 

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Yeah, definitely. 
Are you a coach yourself at all?

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I've got a qualification, 
Scottish. 

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What is it? 
The jog? 

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I think it's jog. 
Scotland's Scottish Athletics 

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leader in running fitness. 
I'm qualified in that, but to me

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that qualifies me to take a 
running session that in my 

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opinion, that doesn't qualify 
you to coach somebody. 

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No. 
So that I I'm so I I can take 

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sessions at the running club, 
but I. 

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No, though I'm saying no. 
I I would disagree with that to 

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a point because you've been 
running. 

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As you say, 50. 
Years. 

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I wouldn't say that. 
Experience. 

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Yeah, I wouldn't say that I 
couldn't coach somebody. 

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I'm not qualified to coach 
somebody. 

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Yeah. 
It's is it, do you need to be? 

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I don't know. 
But I I'm qualified to coach 

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myself and that's all I do. 
Yeah, definitely. 

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So with that, you coach yourself
how you're a dad's. 

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How old is your wee girl? 
She is 6 1/2. 

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She'll tell you. 
So still very young, you've got 

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a wife how? 
And you've got a job full time. 

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Yes. 
How do you set all your family 

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commitments, working full time 
and your training all into life 

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basically? 
We make it work. 

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If you want to do something, you
find the time to do it. 

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With Flora, 6 year old, we take 
it two nights on, two nights 

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off. 
So bath and bedtime I do two 

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nights, wife does two nights. 
So we take a turn about. 

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If I want to do something, I put
it in our calendars that we can 

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both. 
We both work at the same place 

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so we can share calendars. 
We can see what each other has 

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to do. 
We use it for our personal 

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calendar as well. 
So if we want to do something, 

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we put it in the calendar and 
block it out. 

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Whoever gets there first gets to
do it. 

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Try not to get in then each 
other's way, try and make it 

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work. 
Sometimes it doesn't. 

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There's where where we live, 
babysitters are thin on the 

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ground. 
I think there's, I don't think 

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there's been one night that 
Flora's been away from either of

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us and just 6 1/2. 
So yeah, that's it just works. 

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It's yeah. 
So basically be organized as the

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key. 
I guess so, yeah. 

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But the calendar, that's a 
really good idea. 

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That's something to consider for
for myself for the future. 

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That was actually more of a 
personal question for me. 

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How to see if that's in the way 
I'm intending to fit mine in is 

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I'm more of a morning person, so
I'll go out for a run in the 

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morning. 
As you say where you live, I 

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don't know if that would work 
for you because you're in total 

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darkness. 
I'm lucky I'm in Glasgow and 

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have the streets and everything 
for light. 

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When when is your preference for
training? 

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Are you a morning runner or are 
you an evening runner? 

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00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,320
I usually I finish work at 4:00,
get straight out the door 

226
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,960
usually, but I'll I'll quite 
happily run that anytime I've 

227
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,960
got head torches that are I've 
run through the Alps with the 

228
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,960
head torch I've got. 
If it can do that, then it can 

229
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,480
do the nature reserve that's 
next to my house. 

230
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,680
And that's a best for the head 
torches because since the last 

231
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,040
podcast, I've actually had a few
people say to me, oh, I'm going 

232
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,360
to try the LED lenses and off of
your recommendation. 

233
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,040
So that was a good tip. 
That was some of the feedback I 

234
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,000
got from the last one. 
Good. 

235
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,920
So I, I've, I've got four of 
them, so that's as much as I can

236
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,120
say. 
So fueling, you spoke about 

237
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,520
having a nutrition coach in the 
past. 

238
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,880
Do you have the same fueling as 
back then? 

239
00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,480
Have you changed a lot of 
things? 

240
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,880
And for your races, do you 
adapt? 

241
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,760
You're feeling safe. 
For instance, if you were to go 

242
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:10,040
out and do 10K half marathon as 
opposed to a multi day event, 

243
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:16,160
how does your feeling differ? 
The nutrition coach was probably

244
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:22,800
more on daily food. 
That's your normal diet with a 

245
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:32,000
little bit of running in it. 
But for likes of A10 KA normal 

246
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,240
like my standard run is 6 miles 
or 10 miles. 

247
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,480
I wouldn't normally fuel for 
that. 

248
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,400
So they weren't they were 
telling me what to eat before a 

249
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,960
run or what to eat after a run, 
what to eat during the day. 

250
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,920
So you didn't need to fuel in 
your run that that type of 

251
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:55,760
thing. 
But for for 10 K 10 miles half 

252
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,480
marathon, I'm not sure. 
If it was a training run I 

253
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,960
wouldn't fuel. 
If it was a race I would 

254
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,760
probably anything up to 
marathon, even 50K I'd be on 

255
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:14,240
gels. 
Anything over like ultras. 

256
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:20,360
Real food and as soon as 
possible you find or I find that

257
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:22,560
later on you might not want to 
eat something. 

258
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,960
So get the real food in when you
can. 

259
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,840
Don't let your stomach stop 
working. 

260
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,720
If you don't use it then it'll 
shut down so that it can 

261
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,920
concentrate. 
Your body can concentrate on 

262
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,600
putting blood and whatever to 
the areas that need it, so get 

263
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,720
the proper fuel in while you 
can, which is at the start of 

264
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,920
the race. 
Yeah, I totally agree with that.

265
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:51,400
For the likes of backyard, when 
you're running multi days could 

266
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:57,760
be then fueling every lap 
constantly every lap. 

267
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:06,320
So that's someone really wise 
person told me a wife runner 

268
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,640
said you're feeling is like your
fingerprint find what works for 

269
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,600
you. 
So in your backyard especially 

270
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,080
you're saying every lap what 
works for my crafting? 

271
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,600
What will you eat on lap one and
then what will you eat on lap 

272
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,520
30? 
For me, breakfast cereal. 

273
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,240
Just breakfast. 
Yeah, but if you look at it, 

274
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:36,880
it's carbohydrates and that's 
what you're wanting and that's 

275
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,200
what works for me. 
I found that for and through 

276
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:47,480
experimentation over, I've done 
10/10 backyards and I've only 

277
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,000
just realized that, oh, it's 
giving me runs and not the type 

278
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:58,960
that you want. 
So I don't eat oats and I was 

279
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:04,240
fine for, for this race. 
So that's, that's something it's

280
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:11,080
taken me. 
I think this is ultra 61 or 62. 

281
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,520
I'm not entirely sure because 
DUV is not 100% up to date, but 

282
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,120
it's taken me that long 15 years
of running to realize that that 

283
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:23,120
was the case. 
So did you get the runs just 

284
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,960
from eating oats and you didn't 
swag until fairly recently? 

285
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,160
The. 
It's never straight away, it's 

286
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,920
several hours later. 
Ah, right, that's interesting. 

287
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,880
But like if I have oats for 
breakfast and then run at 

288
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,440
lunchtime then I'll need to go 
to the toilet. 

289
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,080
Oh, that's really interesting 
because it's something that I've

290
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,800
never ever thought about. 
Like he would automatically 

291
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,920
think, well, I automatically 
thought like I used to have. 

292
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,040
I've had a gel and an empty 
stomach once and that is a 

293
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,880
mistake you make once because I 
had to go to the loot similar, 

294
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:05,360
but it happened instantly with 
with you saying that and then 

295
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:07,840
having to go later on. 
That's actually quite 

296
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,720
fascinating how long it takes to
work through your body. 

297
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,400
So yeah, that's it's good that 
you realize now though. 

298
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:21,400
Yeah, and it's from a backyard I
had, I think I had wheat, Becks,

299
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,920
oats, maltodextrin and milk all 
in one bowl. 

300
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,400
And something was making me go 
to the toilet every lap. 

301
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,080
And I cut one thing out. 
Nope, still happening. 

302
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,480
Cut another thing out and it got
down to the oats. 

303
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,240
It was like, that's the thing 
that was wanting. 

304
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,640
So scrap that, go back to it, 
add everything else back in and 

305
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,760
I'm fine. 
So. 

306
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,160
That. 
And did you manage to make it 

307
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,840
back after every loophole? 
Was it mid loop that you would 

308
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,480
have to run into the Bush? 
No comment. 

309
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,760
Builders. 
Does an ultra runner go in the 

310
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:06,040
woods? 
Oh, I would, I would say that 

311
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,400
I've had that experience but I 
haven't yet, so still learning. 

312
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,440
So you've done 60 odd ultras. 
That is a lot. 

313
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,560
Do you have a favorite race 
where everything when absolutely

314
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,920
bang on the dream race got your 
day goal fueling was perfect? 

315
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,920
Or do you even have a favorite 
race? 

316
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,720
But it doesn't, and because you 
purely finished, that was what 

317
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:38,320
made it good? 
I I've got lots of races that 

318
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,680
there are individual aspects of 
it that I've really enjoyed. 

319
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:51,760
Performance wise, I've done the 
Great Glen full course, so the 

320
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,760
73 miles. 
I've done it four times I think 

321
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,880
and I've won it three times. 
But it's the time that I came 

322
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,600
second that I thought I had the 
best performance. 

323
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,280
And the reason why was I, I was 
deliberately running with 

324
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,720
somebody else. 
And I asked the race director, 

325
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,280
could I run it with them? 
They're not going to get 

326
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,280
penalized for me running with 
them. 

327
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,080
The answer was no. 
I had paid my entry. 

328
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,080
I wasn't a pacer because I'd 
paid my entry. 

329
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,800
They can't stop me. 
We got to halfway, 35 miles and 

330
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,920
one of the Marshall says, Oh no,
you're not allowed to do that. 

331
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,720
I was like, I've got permission,
I'm allowed to do it. 

332
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,120
And it got me at that time, I 
was an hour and 7 minutes, I 

333
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:41,200
think it was behind the leader. 
And that got me so worked up and

334
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:48,000
adrenaline pumping, I I picked 
up some gels from the leftover 

335
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,840
table and I went for it. 
That's when I started racing. 

336
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,760
I finished in second place, a 
minute and a half behind the 

337
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,640
leader. 
That's insane. 

338
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,480
So performance wise, yeah, that 
that's my best race. 

339
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,680
And where did your friend come? 
Do you remember? 

340
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,320
She was second female I think. 
Fantastic. 

341
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,680
I don't know how far behind 
that, but there's other races 

342
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:26,160
like the Hill. 
I went into that confident It's 

343
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:31,000
160 miles. 
It was my first mark. 

344
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,360
Can be an event and nobody knew 
who I was. 

345
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:39,880
It was down in England in the 
Peak District and no, nobody 

346
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,440
knew who I was, which was good 
for me. 

347
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:49,280
And I heard Mark telling people 
at the start on most people 

348
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,360
aren't going to finish this. 
And I had it in my head, I'm 

349
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:53,320
going to finish it. 
You don't know who I am. 

350
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,000
I know who I am. 
And I did the first. 

351
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:06,280
It was 55 reps of a hill, 160 
miles in total, and I did the 

352
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:12,960
first one, first 5K in like 21 
minutes and people say, Oh no, 

353
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,680
it's going too fast. 
He doesn't know what he's doing.

354
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,920
A day later, yeah, they weren't 
saying that anymore. 

355
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,680
So. 
And was it at that event that 

356
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,640
you met Mark Cobain, your first 
one? 

357
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,360
Yeah, that was my first one, 
yeah. 

358
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,760
And what did he say when you 
done that? 

359
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,760
I think he although he puts out 
the persona of he wants his 

360
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,560
races to be hard. 
He is happy that people finish 

361
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,680
them. 
He is hard, he is happy that 

362
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,720
people do something hard that he
has put on. 

363
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,520
Yeah, because his event sounds 
absolutely disgusting. 

364
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,640
They can be. 
I I say that now and watch me in

365
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,360
three years time. 
Oh yeah, I can run through that 

366
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:01,320
200 because I suppose that this 
is where it all starts, isn't 

367
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,560
it? 
You start with a 10K and you go 

368
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,720
just go a bit further and you 
know if you're into it and then 

369
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,000
before you know it you're 
signing up, going up and down 

370
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,960
Wales with no checkpoints or 
it's a single checkpoint. 

371
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,640
That's his race long last cream 
you the I think it's the red 

372
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:28,160
line whales is what it's called.
It's a cycle route and that's I 

373
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,880
think there's about 50 miles of 
tarmac and 200 and 5200 miles 

374
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:39,400
off road. 
Checkpoints every 50 miles and 

375
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,800
water drops every 25 miles. 
But you are allowed to go into 

376
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,520
shops. 
Right. 

377
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,600
So because everybody has that 
access. 

378
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,120
Yes, yeah. 
Because that was one thing I did

379
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,440
actually ask a few friends 
about, the flying I've signed up

380
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,520
for next year, the honesty box 
at the bottom of Ben Lomond. 

381
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Are you allowed to buy for it or
is that classed as additional 

382
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,280
support? 
And people have said no, you can

383
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,360
buy from it because it's 
accessible to everyone. 

384
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,600
So it's not no one's getting any
further advantage. 

385
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,120
Yeah, I think the rules must 
have changed because the last 

386
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,520
time I had involvement with the 
Fling, I was crewing for Rob 

387
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,160
Sinclair when he set the court 
record and I was allowed to meet

388
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,120
him at certain checkpoints. 
Not every checkpoint, but 

389
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:30,200
certain checkpoints. 
And I was allowed to give him 

390
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,760
the fuel, but that wasn't in 
between checkpoints. 

391
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,360
So the honesty boxes in between.
So I I don't know how it counts.

392
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,720
Yeah, I'm not sure. 
I think the rules for the flying

393
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,720
though are there's absolutely no
support allowed on the course. 

394
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,800
But as you see, I don't know if 
that includes at checkpoints. 

395
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,160
So what have you? 
Because they've changed the 

396
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,600
rules last year that we're not 
allowed to use polls. 

397
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:57,760
Yes, I saw that. 
Which I'm a little bit like, you

398
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,840
know what, I kind of want to try
it without if I can. 

399
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,520
You don't need to. 
I didn't need it for the devil. 

400
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,840
Well, I might, I would have 
benefited from it, but I'm I'm 

401
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,080
of the mindset. 
I've done it now so. 

402
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,680
I, I'm, I'm actually glad that 
they've came round to that 

403
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,000
because there there was an urban
myth that you're not allowed to 

404
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,520
use polls in Scotland and put 
it, put it to bed. 

405
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:29,360
That has never been a rule. 
Sums, which I mentioned earlier,

406
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,880
the Scott shot, the marathon 
series, they had a rule that you

407
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,840
weren't allowed to use poles in 
any of the races that were part 

408
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,120
of sums and that's where it came
from. 

409
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,400
But anybody that wasn't part of 
sums the race director was 

410
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,880
allowed to choose. 
Scotland Athletics never set 

411
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,280
that rule. 
Oh, really? 

412
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,320
It was some Scottish athletics. 
Ian BE was chairman of Scottish 

413
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,120
athletics at one point. 
He's now race director of the 

414
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:02,280
West Ham Way and I think he's 
the chairman of British 

415
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,840
athletics now. 
He he has stated that that has 

416
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,440
never been a Scottish athletic 
rule. 

417
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,680
So people need to stop spreading
that rumour because it's never 

418
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,040
been true sums. 
At that to bed, so as are all 

419
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,000
the other events, say for 
instance like Cataran and the 

420
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,960
yellow poles on those events. 
It is up to the race director. 

421
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,760
Check the rules is up to them is
not enforced by Scottish 

422
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,040
athletics. 
Many race directors will still 

423
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,680
say no, you're not allowed, so 
check with the race director. 

424
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,400
That's bad enough and definitely
should be reading your brief 

425
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:45,160
anyway before, just from a 
safety point of view and times 

426
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,680
and things like that. 
Yeah, if you look at the Murray 

427
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,720
Way ultras, they've been 
allowing poles for a number of 

428
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,320
years. 
Ever since they moved over to 

429
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,640
Kyle being the race director, 
they've allowed it so. 

430
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,480
And the DAVA ways quite soon, I 
think as well. 

431
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,280
November, isn't it? 
I'm not sure. 

432
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,840
I've only, I've only ever done 
the the relay race, the 100 mile

433
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,240
relay, which is in the middle of
summer. 

434
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:24,960
So back to your brother, you ran
from 2009, is that correct? 

435
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,720
Yes. 
And then you mentioned after 

436
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,320
your marathon you collapsed and 
said you will never run again. 

437
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:39,880
Moving on from that time in 
2018, you were having trouble 

438
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,760
breathing and decided to go to 
the doctor. 

439
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,080
And there was a little bit of a 
decrease in the activity when I 

440
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,160
was looking through your DUV 
last night. 

441
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,560
So what happened in that period 
of time? 

442
00:30:54,200 --> 00:31:01,360
I I've got a hill outside my 
house and whenever I was running

443
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:09,280
up it I was getting slower and I
run a lot with Rob Sinclair, 

444
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:14,200
previous guest, West Highway 
record holder on a flat. 

445
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,280
I could keep up with him doing 6
minute miles, would be chatting 

446
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:18,920
away. 
No, no problem. 

447
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,360
Soon as we got the hill I'd be 
walking and he would leave me 

448
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:29,560
for dust and I didn't like it. 
I had to do something about it 

449
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,320
and it wasn't fitness, it was 
something else. 

450
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,080
So went to the doctor, 1st 
doctor said I had a cold and I 

451
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,680
was like, well this has been 
going on for six to eight weeks 

452
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,320
now. 
No, I went to another doctor and

453
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,040
they said OK, we'll send you to 
ear, nose and throat and 

454
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,320
cardiology. 
We don't know what it is. 

455
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,240
We'll send you to both of them. 
See which comes up first. 

456
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,200
Ear, nose and throat, you wait a
year before you get an 

457
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:04,240
appointment with them. 
Cardiology was six months, so I 

458
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:09,080
was lucky and that their queue 
was so long that they had sent 

459
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,640
somebody down from Inverness on 
a Sunday to try and clear some 

460
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,840
of their backlog. 
And he was a runner. 

461
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:23,560
He got me on, I think it was 
ECG, so measured my heart rate 

462
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,800
and couldn't see anything. 
Had me on a stress test on a 

463
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,640
treadmill and nothing. 
And he's like, because he was a 

464
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,840
runner, he said right, there's 
something not right here. 

465
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,440
Used to be able to do that and 
do that. 

466
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,160
We're going to find out what it 
is. 

467
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:50,600
So he sent me for ACT scan and 
they put a needle in to get the 

468
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,760
isotope into you. 
You'll probably know more about 

469
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,920
it than me. 
I've had enough of them, 

470
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,200
honestly. 
Yeah, You put the needle in, Did

471
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,160
I stop? 
I was fine. 

472
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,040
They did the scan, not a problem
afterwards. 

473
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,680
It's a big memory now. 
I can't see why they would be 

474
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,280
taking a needle out afterwards. 
But anyway, after the scan they 

475
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,760
said, oh, sit there for 15 
minutes just to make sure 

476
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,920
everything's OK. 
I was wearing my garment, told 

477
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,240
me my heart rate and I watched 
as it was 32, I'm dropping. 

478
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,360
And I said, nurse, there's 
something not right here. 

479
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,960
So I said, oh, come in, lie 
down, we'll see what's 

480
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,600
happening. 
And they had to take me in. 

481
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,120
I couldn't walk. 
It was, I was feeling that 

482
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,560
dizzy. 
And they said, OK, we'll get 

483
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,080
your bed. 
You're not going home tonight. 

484
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,400
But it meant that they looked at
the results there and then they 

485
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,920
probably would have found what 
they found anyway, but they 

486
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,560
looked at it straight away and 
they went, oh, there's something

487
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,400
not right there. 
We're not entirely sure what it 

488
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,840
is, but that's not right. 
Various scans, my perfusion 

489
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,840
scan, MRI scans and God knows 
what else. 

490
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,960
Later found out I had a aberrant
coronary artery, right Coronary 

491
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,560
artery. 
So the my right artery is 

492
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:23,800
growing out of the left side but
it's going round and doing what 

493
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,280
it needs to do. 
But 2 problems is it takes a 

494
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,280
route that goes through other, 
let's call them pipes. 

495
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,920
And if those pipes squeeze then 
that artery gets blocked. 

496
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,040
When you get blocked artery, you
have a heart attack or cardiac 

497
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:47,639
death as it's actually called. 
And yeah, don't survive the the 

498
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:51,600
other problem was it was going 
in at an acute angle. 

499
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,600
So rather than going in a right 
angle, it was going in at like 

500
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:57,760
30° or something. 
I'm not entirely sure. 

501
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:08,120
So after various scans and 
doctor's appointments and 

502
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,880
whatever else, having met 
several ultra runners in the 

503
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,240
process, because they're they're
doing your ultrasound on your 

504
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:21,640
heart, they're doing your 
angiogram, they're sticking a 

505
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,800
wire in your heart and watching 
you on the monitor and then you 

506
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,120
talk to them about a race later 
on. 

507
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,600
So there can't be too much wrong
with ultra running if the all 

508
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,240
the cardiologists are doing it. 
But yeah, I had an operation, 

509
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,800
the artery still in the wrong 
place, but it's going in at the 

510
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,200
correct angle now. 
So I I've had CT scans 

511
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,480
afterwards and other scans 
afterwards. 

512
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,760
And as far as they're aware, 
I've got a fully functioning 

513
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,440
heart. 
And in my head somebody else 

514
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,800
that is on the start line hasn't
had that assurances. 

515
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,120
So I know that I'm OK. 
They haven't because I was just 

516
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,000
a random person on the street 
that had a problem. 

517
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:15,160
Well, they might be the same so,
but if anything has came out of 

518
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,760
this, I would say that if 
anybody's got any symptoms 

519
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,960
that's to do with your heart or 
anything serious like that, go 

520
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,480
with the doctor and don't give 
in. 

521
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,920
Don't let them tell you there's 
nothing wrong with you. 

522
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,200
If there's actually something 
like don't tell, don't let them 

523
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,400
tell you it's a cold. 
It's your health. 

524
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,560
Go to the doctor. 
Don't be. 

525
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,240
Don't be a man about it and go 
and get yourself sorted out. 

526
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,600
No, for sure. 
And that goes with anything like

527
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,720
lumps, bumps, anything that's 
not right. 

528
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,640
Definitely if even if the first 
line at the GP tries to brush it

529
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,920
off, persist with it. 
Definitely get a specialist 

530
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,800
referral as you're saying and 
get it checked out exactly 

531
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,880
because it is scary. 
Even as a health professional, 

532
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,200
it's a scary thing to go 
through. 

533
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,720
In some ways as a health 
professional, it can be worse 

534
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,520
because anything that Joe Public
hasn't thought of, we've seen, 

535
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,920
you know, so from time of 
diagnosis to your operation, 

536
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,080
what was the time frame roughly 
for that? 

537
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:25,320
It was from first diagnosis. 
I had to wait about six months 

538
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,480
to get an MRI scan. 
Right. 

539
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:33,920
And from the point MRI scan, it 
was probably another maybe three

540
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,040
months after that, something 
like that. 

541
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,800
After the MRI scan, it was 
pretty quick and the MRI scan 

542
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,720
wasn't strictly needed. 
But the initial doctor didn't 

543
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:53,240
want to give the people in 
Glasgow any chance of turning 

544
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,760
around and saying, no, you're 
not getting it. 

545
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,120
They want to give them the full 
packs and say that this is 

546
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:07,640
everything you need to know. 
So I think if I wasn't doing 

547
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,280
what I was doing, running, they 
might have said, Oh well, just 

548
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,400
don't run and you'll be fine. 
That leads on to what I was 

549
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,960
getting at with the time scale 
for the nine months. 

550
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,840
So you knowing that you've got 
this thing going on in your 

551
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,040
heart and you're waiting on your
MRI scan, you're waiting on your

552
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,000
operation, what then happens 
with the running and the 

553
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,840
fitness? 
Were you scared to go out in 

554
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,560
case it was just bang, that's 
it, it's done? 

555
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,160
Or could you still do gentle 
exercise? 

556
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,560
I got told to take it easy. 
Taking it easy meant that I 

557
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:53,760
started the tunnel I got to. 
It's a it's advertised at a 200 

558
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,800
mile race. 
It's actually 214 because each 

559
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,120
length is ever so slightly more 
than a mile. 

560
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,000
So over 200 lengths, it's 214 
miles. 

561
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:09,200
I got to halfway and my wife and
daughter were going to the zoo 

562
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,160
and they were, they were there 
to pick me up at the end. 

563
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,560
And I thought, this is pretty 
boring, so I'm going to go to 

564
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,480
the zoo instead. 
And that was my first ever DNF, 

565
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,320
my only ever DNF if you don't 
count backyards. 

566
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:31,160
So as I put it down to more of a
psychological thing, yeah, I 

567
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,760
knew. 
I knew in my head that I used 

568
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,520
them as an excuse that I was 
bored and they were doing 

569
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,040
something more fun. 
That was my excuse. 

570
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,680
What I think I got told to take 
it easy and I shouldn't have 

571
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,440
been running. 
Maybe I shouldn't have been 

572
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,240
running. 
Maybe that's what it was. 

573
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,960
But it's quite handy to have, as
you say, you have ultra runners 

574
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,440
as doctors, healthcare 
professionals, those people to 

575
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,400
give you advice. 
And that ties in with as well, 

576
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,400
like, you know, your own body. 
But is there any advice that you

577
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,960
could give any people out there 
that are maybe going through 

578
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,440
something not quite so similar, 
but maybe they've had some sort 

579
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,320
of diagnosis where it's 
completely flipped the world 

580
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,480
upside down? 
Because I know for myself. 

581
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,200
I'm very, very fortunate touch 
Woods. 

582
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,040
I'm healthy as far as I know 
that I've run for my mental 

583
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,600
health. 
That is absolutely number one 

584
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,680
for me, like going out for a run
and I've I was told that I 

585
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,200
couldn't or I've had to scale it
back. 

586
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,680
I would really struggle with 
that. 

587
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,800
So do you have any advice for 
anyone out there having been 

588
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:50,520
through that yourself? 
In, in terms of running or 

589
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:56,280
general fitness, the fitter you 
are, the more likely you are to 

590
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:01,160
recover from it. 
So the best chance, like you may

591
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,480
never need an operation like I 
did. 

592
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:10,760
I had to get my chest opened up 
and my heart was somebody held 

593
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,720
my heart in their hand. 
I've yeah, I can say that Blase.

594
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:21,040
Now, at the time, it's like my 
heart was stopped and I, I 

595
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,480
technically got a blood 
transfusion because they took my

596
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,840
blood, cleaned it and put it 
back into me. 

597
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:29,840
So I never got somebody else's 
blood. 

598
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,640
It was my blood, but the, my, my
heart was stopped. 

599
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:42,760
I, the, the reason why I 
survived it, why I survived it 

600
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,560
quickly, recovered quickly is 
because I was fit. 

601
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,640
And during the MRI scans, they 
could see that that was evident 

602
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:58,480
that that they, without knowing 
my history or certain doctors 

603
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,480
looking at the scans, they go, 
oh, he's, he's fit, he's 

604
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,320
athletic because your heart 
enlarges. 

605
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,200
And they could tell that, right.
So in terms of getting out the 

606
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,760
hospital, I had the operation on
the Tuesday and I was home on 

607
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,840
the Friday. 
And the only reason I wasn't 

608
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:23,200
home earlier was because you've 
got to pass certain tests. 

609
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:29,040
You've got to. 
I went through high dependency 

610
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,440
and all the different levels of 
wards, different levels of care 

611
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,960
and then it was just a you're 
here until you pass you. 

612
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,920
You had to walk around the ward 
twice or something like that. 

613
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,520
I got bored and I was walking 
around it every 5 minutes. 

614
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:47,640
Rather than going to the 
hospital. 

615
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:52,960
Kind of yes, there there was. 
I had a remote heart rate 

616
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,680
monitor and one of the nurse, I 
was standing chatting to 

617
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,840
somebody and one of the nurses 
came running down the corridor 

618
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,480
because they thought I was 
having a heart attack and I was 

619
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,360
standing there chatting. 
I didn't know what was taught 

620
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,400
what, what was going on. 
So I don't know what was wrong 

621
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,400
with the measurement. 
But as far as I was concerned, 

622
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,320
my heart rate was fine. 
Having my watch now tells me my 

623
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,000
heart rate and I haven't had it 
probably in the last year or so,

624
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:25,240
but I did have a a few times 
heart rate just randomly spikes 

625
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,120
and then within two minutes it 
disappears. 

626
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,400
So is that what happened in the 
hospital? 

627
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:36,360
I, I, I don't know, but no, no 
doctors ever been able to tell 

628
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,560
me that there's anything off 
that so. 

629
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,640
Do you have a heart rate monitor
like round for your chest when 

630
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,080
you're out running or do you 
just go off the wrist based one?

631
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,800
Just the wrist based one because
I find that chest based one 

632
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,600
increases my heart rate so it's 
giving me a false reading. 

633
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,000
People say that the wrist based 
1 isn't that accurate. 

634
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,200
Well either is the chest based 
one if it's messing up with the 

635
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,800
reading. 
Yeah, so, but no, you're, I 

636
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,600
can't remember what you're 
asking you're saying about 

637
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,920
recovery. 
No, the time frame, the reason 

638
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,560
why I thought the tunnel was 
psychological is because six 

639
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,960
days later I did a different 100
mile race. 

640
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,120
So physically I knew that I was 
capable of it. 

641
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,560
So and you asked something else.
I can't remember what it. 

642
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,080
Was just advice for anyone 
that's going through something 

643
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,920
similar from diagnosis to 
getting the nopa, what have you 

644
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,040
and you said about being fitter 
and the more fit you. 

645
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,560
Are be be as fit as possible, 
and don't let anybody tell you 

646
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,040
that there's nothing wrong with 
air when there actually is. 

647
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,760
And the last part of like this 
question on this topic, are you 

648
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,480
beating Rob Sinclair uphills 
now? 

649
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,320
He's had a baby less than a year
ago, so he never gets out 

650
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,720
anymore. 
So yes, you are. 

651
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,720
So this is a public outcry, Rob,
you're listening, which I hope 

652
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:11,520
you are. 
Let's let's get a date set. 

653
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,800
I think he'll still beat me. 
No more. 

654
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,720
No, no problem at all. 
But yes, we should run more. 

655
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,560
Definitely. 
So what was your first event 

656
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,600
after having your huge heart 
operation? 

657
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:37,680
I'm not entirely sure. 
Let me have a look. 

658
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,120
It might have. 
Was it the tunnel? 

659
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,200
I'm not sure if in 2020 because 
everything was cancelled for 

660
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,280
COVID wasn't it? 
Yeah. 

661
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,320
I'm wondering if there was a 
relay for the 33 or something 

662
00:45:54,320 --> 00:46:00,040
like that in the March that you 
done in 2020, which would have 

663
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:09,440
been right before lockdowns. 
No, according to DUV. 

664
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,280
My first race back was Suffolk 
Backyard. 

665
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:23,680
Right. 
I was my first backyard and I 

666
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:25,360
honestly didn't know what I was 
doing. 

667
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:31,560
I only signed up to it two weeks
before the actual race because 

668
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,800
on the I I'd never even 
considered doing it. 

669
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:43,720
And the on Facebook page there 
was a notification came up 

670
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:47,440
saying, oh, there's only two 
weeks to the race day. 

671
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:49,720
Entries close tonight. 
Oh, entries close tonight. 

672
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,120
Oh, I'm interested in doing 
that. 

673
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,560
I'll do it. 
I had trained to do personal 

674
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,160
challenge that everybody was 
doing during lockdown, doing 

675
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:03,120
FKTS and stuff like that. 
So I I had trained to do that 

676
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:10,600
which was all the Monroe's over 
9000 feet, 9000, yeah, 9000 

677
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,160
feet, is that right? 
Yes, in Scotland. 

678
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:21,160
So there's nine of them in 
total, five in the Cairngorms 

679
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:26,720
and four in the Nevis range of 
cabbage. 

680
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,320
So like cabbage, Yeah. 
And 80 miles in between them. 

681
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:37,320
So I, I trained to do that, went
to do Suffolk instead because I 

682
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,920
thought I, I hadn't, I hadn't 
done enough preparation for the 

683
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,400
9 thousands. 
So I'm going to do the backyard 

684
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,200
instead. 
It'll be easy. 

685
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,320
Why not? 
I went into it and honestly, I 

686
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,600
didn't have a clue. 
I brought a deck chair. 

687
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,480
It was hot, so I brought a 
brolly as a sun shade and I had 

688
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,720
a box of food and that was it. 
No crew, no nothing. 

689
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:09,360
Got a 25 or 26 yards and I'd had
enough. 

690
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,080
I wasn't enjoying myself because
I hadn't prepared for it. 

691
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,960
And if you ask the race 
director, Lindley, he'll say oh,

692
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,520
it was too hot and blah, blah, 
blah. 

693
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,680
That was my excuse. 
I'll be honest, I didn't have a 

694
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,600
clue what I was doing and I gave
up early. 

695
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,680
But the key thing is I learned 
from it and I improved the next 

696
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:42,640
time and I went back and it took
me 5 backyards before I actually

697
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,040
knew what I was doing. 
Various different things I did 

698
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:52,320
wrong and yeah, but to answer 
your question, Suffolk backyard 

699
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,440
hundreds. 
So is that 2021? 

700
00:48:55,240 --> 00:49:03,680
2021 operation was 25th of 
February 2020, which was three 

701
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,320
weeks before the first national 
lockdown in the UK. 

702
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:16,040
And yeah, in terms of, yeah, 
operation was on the Tuesday 

703
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,280
25th and got out on the Friday 
and come back to what I was 

704
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,400
saying, because it all comes 
round again. 

705
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,880
You had to do certain tasks 
before you get out of the 

706
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,880
hospital. 
And one of them was go for a poo

707
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,760
because if you have anesthetic 
and you don't go for that, then 

708
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,320
you've got problems because your
body's all bummed up. 

709
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:41,720
So I was on cocktails or 
laxatives because they wanted to

710
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,960
allow me to go home as much as I
wanted to go home. 

711
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:51,720
So on the Friday we got out and 
went to the national running 

712
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:59,680
show on the Saturday in the SEC 
in Glasgow, which was packed and

713
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:01,400
probably shouldn't have went 
there. 

714
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,640
No, Later finding out that COVID
was on the go, enclosed 

715
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,200
environment, I was vulnerable. 
Immune system was shot there. 

716
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,240
Yeah, shouldn't have been there.
A good test off for that. 

717
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,600
Yeah. 
And it's a shame you didn't know

718
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,800
about your oats back then. 
That might have helped you get 

719
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:19,520
out of there. 
I'll. 

720
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:27,040
Yeah, maybe, but the the weird 
thing is that I went to see a 

721
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:32,040
friend, Tim, who owns Chia 
Charge, and his main business is

722
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,560
flapjacks, which are oats, and 
it's the one thing that I can't 

723
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,520
eat So. 
But he he makes other stuff. 

724
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,360
Jelly chews really like them. 
Get on with them. 

725
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,880
They've not got always in them, 
but they've got other chia seeds

726
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,320
and stuff in them so well. 
If you've got any leftover 

727
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,120
flapjacks, send them my way. 
I won't eat anything. 

728
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:03,080
So you say the Suffolk backyard.
You seen the you had one day 

729
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,760
left before you could sign up to
it, and you signed up to it. 

730
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,160
How did you find it? 
And did you know about the 

731
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:13,080
backyard concept at all before? 
No. 

732
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:19,400
You hadn't held all but like. 
I think I'd heard of it, but I 

733
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,880
didn't know about it. 
I didn't know how to run it. 

734
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:29,000
I didn't know what I was doing. 
I was, yeah, I must have heard 

735
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,520
about it. 
But I I knew the race director 

736
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,080
Lindley, because he was the 
medic of some of Mark Cobain's 

737
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,000
events. 
And I think it was because he he

738
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,800
had posted it on Facebook. 
That was the only reason I heard

739
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,120
about it. 
Right. 

740
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:50,680
That's and then it leads on to 
what we're going to speak about 

741
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,600
for the duration of the 
interview. 

742
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,720
So on learning that, I've been 
allowed to interview you. 

743
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:01,080
I've. 
Asked a couple of people if they

744
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,920
have any questions for you. 
Funnily enough it's people that 

745
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:06,760
are interested in backyard 
ultras. 

746
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,280
So my first question is from 
Ross Beveridge who is on Team 

747
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,560
Scotland. 
They've just recently won 

748
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:18,800
Cowshed, so well done to them. 
He would like to know and he 

749
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,720
must know what you do for a job.
How many backyard related 

750
00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:26,080
spreadsheets do you have on 
file? 

751
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:34,840
Well, first of all, I've, I've 
ran for Scotland five times I 

752
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,000
think. 
I've never won it. 

753
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:38,880
I didn't run this year and they 
won it. 

754
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,480
I must be a bad omen or 
something. 

755
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:44,080
I was going to say that's 
because Ross was on the team. 

756
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,680
No spreadsheets. 
I've got a spreadsheet for every

757
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:57,960
year that I've done backyards, 
but each of them have got a 

758
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:06,000
different tab for each race, 
each nutrition, each the start 

759
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:11,280
list and various things. 
I think this year's one's got 

760
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,560
about 14 tabs in the one 
spreadsheet. 

761
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:16,960
And then there's a different 
spreadsheet. 

762
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,680
It's actually a Word document 
for the nutrition plan and the 

763
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,280
instructions for any crew that 
I've got, but not just crew. 

764
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:30,800
If I'm doing it so low, that 
Word document is for me because 

765
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,800
if I write it down when I'm in a
healthy state, if I'm 40 hours 

766
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,320
in, then it's written there. 
I don't need to think about it. 

767
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,320
Yeah. 
And do you fill that out? 

768
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,120
This is a question from me. 
This is a safe question. 

769
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,040
Do you fill that out like in a 
pad or something like that when 

770
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,680
you go back to the 10? 
Or do you have your computer 

771
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,360
with you and how you're feeling?
I've got it printed out and 

772
00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:00,960
things like paracetamol. 
I take it so that if I have 

773
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:05,360
paracetamol at 10:00, I know not
to take it for four hours. 

774
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:10,320
Yeah. 
So tick box, I know not 4-4 

775
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:11,560
hours after that, then it's. 
OK. 

776
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,040
But that's all we planned as to 
what you're having. 

777
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:20,200
I don't plan when I'm having 
like paracetamol, I'll take it 

778
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:25,960
when I do have it so that it 
might be me and it might be like

779
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:31,200
this time I would take it at 
what say say 10:00. 

780
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,040
Yeah, if if Annette came back, 
she could look at the same 

781
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:41,320
clipboard and see, OK, you're 
not allowed it until then, but 

782
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,600
only give it to me when I ask 
for it. 

783
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:48,880
So you got that's printed out 
and you guys take things off and

784
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,400
yeah, I know that's quite bored.
That's what I was meaning the 

785
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,360
fellow after each lap. 
Oh, I'm feeling great, this is 

786
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,600
working or I'm feeling rubbish. 
Or do you have a feelings chat? 

787
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,960
There's one column for food and 
that is what I'm going to eat 

788
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,160
that time. 
And I try to stick to that as 

789
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:11,000
much as possible. 
It usually gets 24 hours in. 

790
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,520
You're not necessarily eating 
what you said you were going to 

791
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,640
eat, but I try to and you might 
get back on to it. 

792
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:27,800
But there's also a blank. 
So if I feel like, I don't know,

793
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,320
my knee started hurting, I might
write that down so that I can 

794
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:37,080
say or I was sick. 
Was that to do with the food I 

795
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:43,280
was having at that time? 
But one thing that I did, I 

796
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:52,760
think it was after a Highlander 
two years ago, I had something 

797
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,040
like 35,000 calories. 
Right. 

798
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,920
It's nonsense like that, that 
you can well, that that doesn't 

799
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,800
mean anything to anybody. 
But would you would you advise 

800
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,040
taking a crew? 
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. 

801
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:18,640
If you can get a crew, then it's
much easier down to I, I was 

802
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:24,680
doing 4043 minute, 45 minute, 
laps, yards, whatever you want 

803
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:30,320
to call them and I would come 
in, have something to eat and 

804
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,840
lie down. 
Every time people would say that

805
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,520
I'm going out too fast. 
No, that's how I felt 

806
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,040
comfortable doing it. 
And then I was able to lie down.

807
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,600
If I was on my own, then I'm too
paranoid to sleep. 

808
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,720
Even if I've got my alarm set, 
my phone's sitting next to my 

809
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:55,160
ear, alarm set with two minutes 
to go, and I know that I can 

810
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,600
hear the whistle as well. 
I'm too paranoid, but, but at 

811
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,240
least I'm lying down. 
And to me, lying down is better 

812
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:04,760
than not lying down. 
But if you've got a crew, 

813
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,080
they're responsible for waking 
you up and the paranoia just 

814
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,400
disappears and you can get 10 
minutes sleep and it makes so 

815
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,600
much difference. 
So we've got another listener 

816
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,680
question. 
This one is from Kayleigh 

817
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:24,960
Webster, who is fairly new to 
the backyard scene and she has 

818
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,320
golf spay this weekend. 
So good luck. 

819
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,520
To Kayleigh, good luck. 
What hard question is for you is

820
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,760
how do you figure out a pace 
that suits a certain backyard 

821
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,920
ultra course and do you have any
walking strategies? 

822
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,920
What works for you? 
Yeah, first of all, good luck to

823
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,280
Fiona as well, who's gone up to 
Gosby and everybody else. 

824
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,040
Good luck to Nikki and Ian, 
whose previous guests. 

825
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,440
Gosby. 
I did it last year. 

826
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,360
Yes, it was cold, so prepare for
it to be cold. 

827
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:11,040
But for Gosby, I would. 
For me, I was running it at 9 

828
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,040
minute miles. 
I looked at the Strava map 

829
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,800
beforehand and knew where the 
hills were. 

830
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:25,000
Significant hills and first half
mile I think it is, is 

831
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,760
completely flat and then you're 
on a gradual hill. 

832
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,280
Different times in the race 
depending on when it was. 

833
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:40,440
I would run halfway up the hill 
and then walk the rest and what 

834
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:46,480
what I normally do is run the 
lap at a pace that I feel 

835
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:51,640
comfortable and most of my runs 
are at 9 minute miles ish, 

836
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,000
something like that. 
So that's the pace that I feel 

837
00:58:54,000 --> 00:59:01,400
comfortable at. 
And for Lisa Gosby, I got to a 

838
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:09,200
certain point at 20 minutes and 
then I got to the end at 40 

839
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,960
minutes. 
So I knew that point where I was

840
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,880
earlier. 
As long as I'm there by 30 

841
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,840
minutes because that's my 
halfway point, then I can finish

842
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,960
the lap. 
So I can adjust my walking 

843
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:29,080
strategies based on that. 
But normally I for me I would 

844
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:35,640
prefer to get in with 10 minutes
to spare, so I would base my 

845
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:42,040
time on a 50 minute lap and walk
it around that. 

846
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,560
Or run it, walk it, whichever 
you need to do. 

847
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:52,040
Thanks for answering that. 
And to echo you, good luck to 

848
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,360
everybody during the event this 
weekend. 

849
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,680
I know the last year's was the 
first one that they've done. 

850
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:02,760
I'd be looking forward to doing 
it in the future at some point 

851
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,880
for sure. 
Hopefully you get the Northern 

852
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,240
Lights this year because we did,
even though I never saw them at 

853
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,640
all. 
So that would be. 

854
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,520
Really nice. 
Yeah, at some time during the 

855
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,440
night, apparently the Northern 
Lights were out, but I didn't 

856
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,600
see them but as because I didn't
look for them. 

857
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,520
Heads up to Nikki and Ian if 
there's a warning for them, tell

858
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,480
the runners about it because we 
want to see it. 

859
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,600
There's a lot of lap as well. 
Last year where they dressed up 

860
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,000
or there was hats or something 
like that. 

861
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,880
I can remember that now. 
They had a silly lap. 

862
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:47,120
I can't. 
I think I was wearing a Teenage 

863
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:51,280
Mutant Ninja Turtles hat. 
Yeah. 

864
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:52,600
I can't remember which lap it 
was. 

865
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:54,800
It might be in like lap three or
something like that. 

866
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,320
Is that in the race? 
I think it might have been 

867
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,760
something that Australians do 
and it is becoming more and more

868
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,560
popular throughout the world. 
Is lap 22 you wear a Tutu? 

869
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,120
Nice. 
So I've never done it myself, 

870
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:16,680
but one person was doing it at 
Suffolk the other week. 

871
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,920
Brilliant. 
So you're talking about Suffolk.

872
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:27,280
That leads us on really nicely 
to the event that you spoke 

873
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,160
about at the start of the 
interview. 

874
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,320
So backyards, I'm very, very 
new. 

875
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:39,000
I've never done 1 and I didn't 
realise that until you were down

876
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,400
at the weekends. 
Was asking Ross, Kayleigh, 

877
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,520
everybody all different 
questions about it. 

878
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,880
Didn't even realise there was a 
whole format to getting into the

879
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:52,240
UK team. 
So how is it that you got 

880
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,800
selected for it and can you 
touch on as well for other 

881
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,400
listeners and viewers? 
What is the deal with bronze and

882
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:04,600
silver tickets I've held of? 
Yeah, well, first of all, you 

883
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:06,880
haven't done 1 yet. 
Yet so. 

884
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,000
Yeah, get that sorted out and. 
That is a warning to the family.

885
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:20,360
Right. 
First of all, what you didn't 

886
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,480
ask was there is a Four Nations 
Championship, right? 

887
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,840
And that is Scotland, England, 
Northern Ireland and Wales. 

888
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:41,320
And if you've done it used to be
24 yards, it's now low to mid 

889
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:48,400
30s or more than the team 
selector for for the Scotland 

890
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,800
team anyway, we'll be in touch 
with you. 

891
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:58,640
And how that works is each year 
it's in a different location. 

892
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:03,040
This year was cow shed. 
I think next year is Highlander.

893
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:08,840
So there are, I don't know what 
the rules are for next time, but

894
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,200
previously has been 10 people on
a team. 

895
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,400
There has to be at least two 
females. 

896
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:21,400
I would prefer it to be probably
6 people on a team and three and

897
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:27,240
three. 
So 3 males, 3 females and but 

898
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:29,520
you're never going to get it 
right. 

899
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:31,640
Everybody's going to have 
something to say about it. 

900
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:39,480
But but we'll see. 
And every lap that you do is one

901
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:44,880
point for your team. 
So if you have 10 people doing a

902
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:50,320
lap, then it's 10 points and the
other teams will be the same. 

903
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,480
And you keep on going until 
there's two people in your team 

904
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,160
and the last person is only 
allowed to do one more because 

905
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,720
they're the last person standing
for that team usually. 

906
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:07,160
And it always has been so far. 
The, the, the Four Nations is 

907
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:10,480
part of a bigger race. 
So the Highlander race is on 

908
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,760
when the Highlander race is on 
and the Four Nations is tagged 

909
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:19,280
onto it as well, right? 
The somebody who is running for 

910
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:24,680
a team can keep on running and 
win the event as an individual 

911
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:30,120
and that's what I did in what 
was Lionsgate is now called Pig 

912
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:34,480
in the Hill, Scotland. 
All the other Scottish runners 

913
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,240
had stopped but I kept on 
running and I won the race 

914
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:41,240
right. 
So technically I was the Welsh 

915
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,880
champion that year, but that got
forgotten about when it wasn't 

916
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:46,720
the Welshman that won it. 
Yeah. 

917
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:54,920
So not saying anything there. 
I I won Highlander in the same 

918
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:56,640
year, so I won the Scottish 
Championship. 

919
01:04:56,640 --> 01:05:03,520
So that's more important to me. 
Yeah, right. 

920
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:07,640
Moving on. 
So that sorts out the. 4. 

921
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:08,960
Nations. 
Four Nations. 

922
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:20,800
This year I did right a bronze 
event, a bronze event. 

923
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:24,720
Usually I'm not sure bronze 
events actually mean anything. 

924
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,440
Usually if you win a bronze 
event and they are picked by 

925
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:33,680
somebody who is a faceless 
person in America somewhere who 

926
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,120
says you applied for it, you can
be a bronze event. 

927
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:42,960
Sometimes a bronze event gets 
you a place in a silver ticket 

928
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,400
event. 
It's not a guarantee, it's just 

929
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:53,160
sometimes that happens. 
So the likes of Highlander might

930
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:56,960
have got you a free place into 
Russellbach or something like 

931
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:58,640
that. 
It's not a guarantee. 

932
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,200
Russellbach was a silver ticket 
event. 

933
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:07,000
So this the last year 
Russellbach, Highlander, Pig in 

934
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:11,120
the Hill and Suffolk were all 
silver ticket events, right? 

935
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:15,680
And a silver ticket is a 
guaranteed spot on the UK team. 

936
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:26,320
Right. 
So I won Russellbach with 42 

937
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,600
yards, so I got a guaranteed 
spot in the team. 

938
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:36,720
And Thomas, who gone previous 
guest, one Highlander, he got a 

939
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:41,320
guaranteed spot in the team in 
Bethune, one pig in a Hill, 

940
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:45,840
guaranteed spot in the team. 
He only got 27 yards, which 

941
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,240
wouldn't have been enough to 
qualify in the other way, which 

942
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:52,400
I'll tell you about in a second.
The last race was Suffolk. 

943
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,760
It was won by a Polish guy 
called Lucas. 

944
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:01,000
Because he was Polish, the 
silver ticket was null and void,

945
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:06,200
so nobody. 
The second place was Matt 

946
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,520
Blackburn. 
He was UK. 

947
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,240
Because he didn't win, he 
doesn't get the prize, didn't 

948
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:16,800
get silver ticket. 
The other way of entering the 

949
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,840
team is being on the at large 
list. 

950
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:21,160
So the team is made-up of 15 
people. 

951
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:24,640
So you take away what is now 3 
silver tickets. 

952
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:30,720
That leaves 12 on the at large 
list right now. 

953
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:37,000
Matt would have been top of the 
at large list because he had 87 

954
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:45,400
or 88 yards. 
I had 42 from Russell Bock, but 

955
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:50,560
I had a silver ticket, so my 42 
didn't matter if I had scored 27

956
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,400
like Ian did because he had a 
silver ticket. 

957
01:07:55,480 --> 01:08:00,880
The other people on the team had
to score in the top 15 in the 

958
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:04,640
country or the top 12 in the 
country because there was 12 

959
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:08,040
spaces. 
So it got to about, I think it 

960
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:13,640
was 37 yards was the minimum you
had to score to be in the at 

961
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,840
large list. 
And if somebody like Matt 

962
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:22,279
Blackburn was doing spot Athlon 
3 weeks before the UK race. 

963
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:26,240
So he decided not to do it right
to be honest. 

964
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:28,960
He's got a place in the World 
Championship the following year.

965
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:33,200
So he didn't need to, it was it 
was up to him. 

966
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,680
He didn't need to choose need to
do it so. 

967
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,080
That's quite chivalrous. 
I say chivalrous like it's 

968
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:42,279
quite. 
It's not chivalrous. 

969
01:08:42,279 --> 01:08:45,399
Maybe like the wrong one, but 
good that he's actually given 

970
01:08:45,399 --> 01:08:49,319
someone else a chance on the 
team because as you say, if he's

971
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:55,319
got a ticket anyway then let 
someone else have a go. 

972
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:56,720
You could say it like that. 
Yeah. 

973
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:01,080
Yeah, that's, yeah, definitely 
good of them. 

974
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,439
And just to touch on as well, 
how going back to the Four 

975
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:07,800
Nations, how you say you would 
have comprised of three females,

976
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:13,160
3 males, I think the likes of 
Sarah Perry and Megan Ecker have

977
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:17,399
smashed that glass ceiling for 
female ultra runners. 

978
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:22,439
Karen, Nicole as well, all 
spectacular runners. 

979
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:28,439
Even with Sarah winning the UK 
version, I'm unaware. 

980
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,359
You probably are, but Sarah the 
only female winner in the world.

981
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,200
Only female winner of a national
championship. 

982
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,600
Yeah. 
Yes, as far as I'm aware, yes 

983
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:45,600
there have been. 
Sarah herself has won backyard 

984
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,439
ultras, but as far as I'm aware 
she's the only female winner of 

985
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:52,319
a national championship. 
That's incredible. 

986
01:09:54,240 --> 01:10:02,680
Karen fights for getting 2 
separate categories, male and 

987
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:07,640
female and I I don't want to get
involved with that debate, no, 

988
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,600
whether there should be male or 
female because I'm not going to 

989
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,080
win that. 
It's not an argument that I'm 

990
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:17,400
qualified for, no SO. 
I think if you get sensible 

991
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:22,880
people that can, I suppose to an
extent, agree to disagree like 

992
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,040
I've heard in the past, like 
touching on my own research, I 

993
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:28,440
can. 
I've heard that Lass has said he

994
01:10:28,440 --> 01:10:32,080
doesn't want to split the 
categories up because he wants 

995
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:36,360
to push the ladies all that much
further, and I understand that, 

996
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,840
but at the same time I 
understand Karen's viewpoint as 

997
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,240
well. 
Las's argument is in the past 

998
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:50,800
when races have given a place 
for first female and 1st male, 

999
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:54,680
if the female is the only one 
left, then they'll stop because 

1000
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:56,080
they've won the first female 
prize. 

1001
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:59,400
They won't go on and win the 
overall prize because they don't

1002
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,560
need to. 
Whether that's true or not, 

1003
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,760
well, Sarah Perry won the team 
championship. 

1004
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:11,680
So whether it's true or not, for
me, what I believe should happen

1005
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:16,560
is we should be putting as much 
effort as possible into getting 

1006
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:21,200
more females to do the race. 
I, I don't, I don't necessarily 

1007
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:23,640
agree with splitting the 
categories up. 

1008
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:27,400
If that happens, then it, it 
wouldn't affect me at all. 

1009
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:31,320
I'll still be racing. 
But I think getting people to do

1010
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:36,520
the races is is the main thing. 
Yeah, for sure, definitely. 

1011
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:44,840
So going back to the UK team, 
this elections happened that you

1012
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,200
know each other beforehand, you 
and the other 14 people. 

1013
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:54,120
Did you know of the people even 
through social media and person?

1014
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,440
How, how did that work out as a 
team? 

1015
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,720
I knew of pretty much all of 
them. 

1016
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:05,360
I didn't know them personally. 
I knew Sarah Perry from previous

1017
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:08,440
races. 
I knew Ian and Julie Bethune, 

1018
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:13,000
the only married couple in the 
World championship. 

1019
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:18,920
I believe Karen Nickel have 
known her through various races 

1020
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:24,160
throughout the years. 
I'm sure I'm missing somebody 

1021
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:33,920
else, but the others I, I didn't
know most of them like Richard 

1022
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:35,320
Thompson, he was at Russell 
Bock. 

1023
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,120
I don't think we ever talked 
during the race. 

1024
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,960
So I knew of him, but I didn't 
know that. 

1025
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:48,560
So I, we were getting closer and
closer to the race and we hadn't

1026
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:53,840
talked other than there's 
various Facebook groups, but you

1027
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:57,200
don't chat. 
So I took it upon myself and I 

1028
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:03,560
set up a WhatsApp group just for
the basics of where are people 

1029
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,080
staying the night before. 
What cheap hotels can you get? 

1030
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:09,920
I I booked mine. 
So I told them where I had 

1031
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:15,040
booked three or four others 
booked the same hotel because it

1032
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,520
was cheaper than most places 
that in that part of the 

1033
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:24,320
country. 
Yeah, so, but in, in terms of 

1034
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:33,440
the team, it it was Auk team, 
but we were all competing to get

1035
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:40,720
a ticket to Biggs. 
So the the bronze gets you might

1036
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:43,800
get you into a silver, the 
silver gets you into the UK 

1037
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,640
team. 
If you win the UK team, you get 

1038
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,560
a gold and you go to Biggs and 
Biggs is the world Championship 

1039
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:51,360
in Tennessee next year. 
Yeah. 

1040
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:58,680
So that's, that's your gold 
ticket as far as probably 90% of

1041
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:04,280
the event, we were all just in a
race against the 14 other people

1042
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:08,160
in the team. 
I'm not convinced that I, I 

1043
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:12,880
think if you were in America, 
Australia or Belgium, maybe a 

1044
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:17,640
few other teams going for the 
top places you worked as a team.

1045
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:22,840
Yeah, I, I can't say it for most
countries, but I think most 

1046
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:27,080
people were just looking to win 
the ticket, the bigs. 

1047
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:29,520
And that's what I was doing 
anyway. 

1048
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:33,320
So most people were just being 
more individual rather than 

1049
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:36,400
working together as a team, you 
would say, like even throughout 

1050
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,520
the other countries. 
Because when, as I say, I'm very

1051
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:42,720
new to all of this. 
So the weekends that you were 

1052
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:46,680
all the way there and I was 
watching and the Belgians just 

1053
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:51,240
kept on going and going and got 
to the point where I looked at 

1054
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:52,960
my phone and there was three of 
them still in it. 

1055
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:54,400
And I just, oh, there's three in
it. 

1056
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:58,320
It's not done. 
And then I've got told later on,

1057
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:00,400
no, they're all done, they all 
finished together. 

1058
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:02,360
Oh, right, that makes more 
sense. 

1059
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:05,480
Like they seem to all work 
together as a team. 

1060
01:15:05,480 --> 01:15:10,600
Do you think that had, say, for 
instance, the UK, if you became 

1061
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:15,680
more together as a team, do you 
feel that one, you might have 

1062
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:21,520
got more yards and two, do you 
think you would have all pushed 

1063
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:23,800
each other on that little bit 
further? 

1064
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:27,720
I think for me personally, I 
don't think I would have got 

1065
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:29,880
more yards for different 
reasons. 

1066
01:15:30,480 --> 01:15:38,880
But I think as a team we 
probably it's difficult because 

1067
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,520
I don't know how you would work 
together as a team. 

1068
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,000
Do you all run together? 
And I think that's what Belgium 

1069
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:50,240
are doing up to a point. 
I'm not entirely sure and I 

1070
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:56,960
don't know what else you can do.
The I, I stopped the race, what 

1071
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,760
I considered early. 
I was disappointed in myself 

1072
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:04,480
when I stopped after 32 yards 
due to injury. 

1073
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:14,440
And Ian and Karen and John 
Stalker, they all asked me is 

1074
01:16:14,440 --> 01:16:17,840
there anything that they can do?
And kudos to them. 

1075
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,240
There wasn't anything they could
do, but at least they asked. 

1076
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:25,280
Yeah. 
And it's probably more than I 

1077
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,520
would have done. 
So I, I, I would like to think 

1078
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,080
that I would help somebody else.
But would I, I don't know. 

1079
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:35,000
It's at somebody else out of the
race because in all honesty, it 

1080
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:39,120
was a race. 
So, but it should have been a 

1081
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:41,800
team. 
So what, what was it a race or a

1082
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:42,600
team? 
I don't know. 

1083
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:48,240
I think if if we had the likes 
of say the four nation 

1084
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,920
championship where you've got 
England against Scotland, 

1085
01:16:51,480 --> 01:16:54,440
there's more sort of team 
rivalry there. 

1086
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:57,480
So you work together as a team. 
Yeah. 

1087
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:01,640
Because you're not necessarily 
like England will obviously 

1088
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:05,600
think that they are winning. 
Usually in football they they 

1089
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:09,560
are going out to win. 
Scotland are just there to take 

1090
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:18,840
part and be England. 
So is that so if we were a 

1091
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:24,600
Scottish team in the event, 
would we get better because of 

1092
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:26,800
that? 
I think we probably would. 

1093
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:31,040
Whether that's what needs to 
happen or not, I don't know. 

1094
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:32,920
Whether ever will happen, I 
don't know. 

1095
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:36,680
You say the the guys asked you 
is there anything that they 

1096
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:39,840
could have done and you say 
there that's probably more than 

1097
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:42,360
what I would have done going 
forward. 

1098
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:45,680
Having been on the other side of
that, has that changed your 

1099
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,320
attitudes for backyards in the 
future? 

1100
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:52,600
Going forward now what are you 
more likely to help someone 

1101
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:55,920
that's maybe got their head down
or? 

1102
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:01,400
Yes, it depends when it is, if 
it's at the start line, yes, 

1103
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:04,880
definitely. 
I, I and it is something that I 

1104
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,400
do at the moment. 
I try and get them to keep 

1105
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:10,320
going. 
Back at Russellbach earlier in 

1106
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:15,400
the year, when Sarah said she 
was stopping, I tried to say no,

1107
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:18,720
don't. 
But she'd already she she wasn't

1108
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:21,920
stopping during due to injury, 
She was stopping because she had

1109
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:26,320
to go to work. 
So there there was nothing that 

1110
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:29,040
I could have done. 
There was no, no convincing her.

1111
01:18:29,480 --> 01:18:33,320
But I did try. 
So at that sort of time, yes. 

1112
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:38,360
But during the lap, I can't 
remember who it was that said 

1113
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:42,000
that. 
Do you want us to run with you? 

1114
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:46,360
But you need to keep up because 
we need to also finish. 

1115
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:49,480
It's like, no, you, you go away 
and do your thing. 

1116
01:18:49,480 --> 01:18:52,160
I'm OK. 
I'm you running with me is not 

1117
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:55,960
going to make me any faster. 
So you go and you, you do you. 

1118
01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:00,280
It's, it's fine. 
But I, I, I was grateful for the

1119
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:03,280
offer, but there wasn't anything
that they could do. 

1120
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:05,480
No, if you're injured, you're 
injured. 

1121
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:09,880
Yeah. 
And one of my questions that 

1122
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:15,240
will lead on nicely to that is 
how did you know that that was 

1123
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:21,520
injury and not in your heads? 
I it might have been in my head,

1124
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:32,560
I'm not 100% but I did 4 laps 
and my at the time it it was 

1125
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:36,840
this a quad muscle just above my
right knee on the left hand 

1126
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:40,040
side. 
It was getting shorter and sore 

1127
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:46,400
every, every lap that I did. 
And I got it taped up, I took 

1128
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:50,160
painkillers, I did various 
things and it was getting sorer 

1129
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,080
and sorer every lap. 
It got to that point that I was 

1130
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:57,000
feeling sick. 
It was so sore, I was feeling 

1131
01:19:57,000 --> 01:20:00,480
sick. 
And to me that I whether that 

1132
01:20:00,480 --> 01:20:04,600
got into my head and I finished,
I might have been able to do 

1133
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:07,720
more. 
But if I did do more, would I 

1134
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:13,440
have been worse off now? 
I I need to keep telling myself 

1135
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:19,760
that I did 32 yards. 
That was 130 something miles. 

1136
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,400
Most races that would win. 
So. 

1137
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:29,480
It's just because these this was
the the best of the best in the 

1138
01:20:29,480 --> 01:20:33,640
UK, so I I shouldn't be ashamed 
of what I did, but not. 

1139
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:37,320
At all. 
I'm barely disappointed in 

1140
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:45,040
myself with my performance and 
in a way that makes me want to 

1141
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:49,360
do better next time. 
Which has a motivation. 

1142
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:55,120
Yeah, I know. 
I know how I felt not winning, 

1143
01:20:55,920 --> 01:21:00,600
which makes me want to win so. 
Now. 

1144
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:11,400
The knee is, well actually we 
were staying in the van for five

1145
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:15,920
days after the race and I was 
putting out the rock'n'roll bed 

1146
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:18,760
and something hadn't clicked 
into place. 

1147
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:24,480
So I, I was kneeling on the bed 
and it dropped. 

1148
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:32,320
So I basically went from 
probably about how high is it, 

1149
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:37,000
40 centimetres, kneeling 
straight down and landed on my 

1150
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,040
knee. 
I can still feel that. 

1151
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:42,160
I can't really feel the pain 
from the race. 

1152
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:48,400
Yeah, it's like we've got a 
carpet in the van and it feels 

1153
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:52,840
like carpet van. 
I basically knee dropped 40 

1154
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:56,240
centimetres, full body weight 
and that hurts. 

1155
01:21:56,840 --> 01:22:04,120
But on the other hand, my left 
Achilles, I've deliberately been

1156
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:06,480
taking rest. 
I'll probably take two weeks 

1157
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:11,000
rest. 
My left Achilles is, if that had

1158
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:14,440
been that sore during the race 
and thinking about it now, I 

1159
01:22:14,440 --> 01:22:20,720
think it actually was because I 
put on a compeed onto my heels 

1160
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:25,080
because it felt like I had 
massive blisters. 

1161
01:22:25,440 --> 01:22:27,280
But I took my socks off and 
there was nothing there. 

1162
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:31,200
But it was because it was the 
tendon going up to my Achilles. 

1163
01:22:31,440 --> 01:22:33,800
It was that. 
It was that that was sore. 

1164
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:39,520
Was I compensating for that? 
And that's why my knee was sore?

1165
01:22:40,480 --> 01:22:42,680
To be honest, it doesn't matter.
I just want to fix it. 

1166
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:47,520
So yeah, at the moment, rest is 
the best thing I can do. 

1167
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:50,120
And then I'll work on leg 
strength. 

1168
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:58,400
Yeah, I, I do a lot of sort of 
weight weight lifting, cross 

1169
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:04,040
training, and I probably do more
core and upper body than I do 

1170
01:23:04,040 --> 01:23:06,920
leg. 
Should I move to more leg? 

1171
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,160
I reckon that I get enough of 
that with the running. 

1172
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:13,520
It's probably the wrong thing. 
I think so I I don't know. 

1173
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:18,600
We'll see what happens. 
If it's one thing I'm finding is

1174
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:21,320
definitely still train the legs 
to make them stronger. 

1175
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:24,400
I know what you're saying with 
the running, but definitely 

1176
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:27,560
build on the muscle just to make
everything that little bit 

1177
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:30,800
stronger, reinforce it. 
And then as we previously 

1178
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:36,480
discussed in the last episodes, 
it's injury prevention as well. 

1179
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:39,560
Did you end up changing your 
shoes? 

1180
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:42,400
You said that you were taking 
down, was it 4 pairs of shoes 

1181
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:44,920
and eight pairs of socks? 
How did that work? 

1182
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:48,160
Yeah, I think I even had 10 
pairs of socks. 

1183
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:49,880
But yes, I had four pairs of 
shoes. 

1184
01:23:51,440 --> 01:24:00,760
I had two identical ones. 
And I think about probably about

1185
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,000
100 miles. 
I I I've got it written down on 

1186
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:05,480
the clipboard but I've not 
looked at it. 

1187
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:12,200
I changed into ones that were 
slightly more cushioned thinking

1188
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:17,480
will it make any difference and 
I don't know if it did or not. 

1189
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:25,520
The other pair that I had were 
identical to them but half size 

1190
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:29,480
bigger and I I didn't even go 
near them. 

1191
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:34,040
They've they've never been born 
so probably a good thing that 

1192
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:37,480
didn't go near them. 
So I've got the other listener 

1193
01:24:37,480 --> 01:24:41,880
question, that's one as from one
of your team mates, Luke Carter 

1194
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:46,480
and what he would like to know 
as this is going to be something

1195
01:24:46,480 --> 01:24:49,840
that only the other 14 of you 
can answer that you like the 

1196
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:57,040
course. 
I I probably would have 

1197
01:24:57,040 --> 01:25:00,960
preferred it if it was slightly 
Hillier or slightly more 

1198
01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:05,920
technical, but just out of 
boredom. 

1199
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:11,280
There were sections in it, there
was long straight. 

1200
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:13,240
It wasn't even Land Rover 
tracks. 

1201
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:17,640
They were compressed, gripped, 
but they were built up in the 

1202
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:24,680
middle which caused a camber. 
And did that disrupt my knee? 

1203
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:26,800
I'm not sure. 
I would try to run in the middle

1204
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:30,800
where you're at the top of the 
hill looking at it. 

1205
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:34,040
Normally there's not hill, but 
when you're running for 24 hours

1206
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,600
you notice there's a camber on 
that road. 

1207
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:41,400
So it's it wasn't my favorite 
course. 

1208
01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:43,680
No. 
No. 

1209
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:46,800
So would you say it was quite an
easy technical? 

1210
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:50,160
It wasn't technical at all. 
It was quite an easy, runnable 

1211
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:53,480
course. 
It was easy, runnable and there 

1212
01:25:53,480 --> 01:25:55,240
are going to be some big miles 
done on it. 

1213
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:59,480
And is that why you were 
probably the set? 

1214
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:04,240
You were the set world second 
fastest yard and yard 2. 

1215
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:09,280
Was that intentional or was it 
still you getting a feel for the

1216
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:11,920
course and adrenaline and what 
have you? 

1217
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:17,440
I, I was, I was told that fact, 
but I'm not not sure how much to

1218
01:26:17,440 --> 01:26:22,160
believe of it because some of 
the countries, their 

1219
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:25,880
spreadsheets weren't updating 
quick enough. 

1220
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:30,400
So when I was told it might have
been that somebody else's 

1221
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:32,400
spreadsheet hadn't uploaded 
their time yet. 

1222
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:39,080
But anyway, I, yes, I, I 
thought, I think it was 

1223
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:43,280
something like 39 minutes with 
my first, my fastest lap. 

1224
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:47,160
And for an early lap that was 
fine. 

1225
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:52,720
I felt 20 minutes to lie down. 
And that was the key thing. 

1226
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:56,600
I was eating and lying down 
every single lap that I had time

1227
01:26:56,600 --> 01:27:00,720
to do it. 
And would Annette and Florida 

1228
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:04,080
with you the whole time? 
Were they sleeping in the tent 

1229
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:06,800
or the van or? 
They they were sleeping in the 

1230
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:12,080
van, which was about 200 meters 
away, but they, they weren't 

1231
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:15,840
there the whole time. 
You can't ask a six year old to 

1232
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:18,160
crew for you because they get 
bored. 

1233
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:22,880
They won't they they were there 
and it was, I was grateful for 

1234
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:25,360
what they gave me, but they 
weren't there the whole time. 

1235
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:30,080
Some of the time they went horse
riding. 

1236
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:38,360
And then after I finished and 
because you're in a tent, other 

1237
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:40,960
people can hear. 
Flora started crying. 

1238
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:43,760
And what? 
Why? 

1239
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:46,640
Why are you crying, Flora? 
Well, why? 

1240
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:51,600
You don't need to be sad for me.
I I thought Daddy was going to 

1241
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:54,040
be running for another day. 
I was like, that's all right. 

1242
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:56,880
You don't need to be sad. 
He was like, no, it means that I

1243
01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:03,560
can't get swimming anymore. 
And then you know what, See, 

1244
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:05,640
like the next day I was going to
text you. 

1245
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:08,600
I heard Flora crying. 
Is it because she was sad or was

1246
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:10,440
it just being a mum? 
I'm like that. 

1247
01:28:10,440 --> 01:28:15,480
I have Wayne is shattered. 
She, she, it, it was like 9:30, 

1248
01:28:15,480 --> 01:28:17,240
ten o'clock at night. 
She was shattered. 

1249
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:19,520
Yeah, I kind of thought that as 
well. 

1250
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:20,920
Thought. 
Oh, cool, we laugh. 

1251
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:25,520
She must be Absolutely floored 
after her dad ran for all that 

1252
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:27,200
time. 
It is exhausting. 

1253
01:28:27,240 --> 01:28:30,840
But it was nice to see it like 
heat run and see it on the live 

1254
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:34,320
feed. 
Even had to, you know, I was 

1255
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:36,800
absolutely hooked on that. 
Hardly anything got done in my 

1256
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:41,120
house on Saturday because it was
like trying to fit 40 minutes in

1257
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,760
of housework. 
And it is amazing what you can 

1258
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:47,200
get done in those 40 minutes 
because nothing happens when you

1259
01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:48,640
sit all the way. 
That's it. 

1260
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:50,800
And it's just looking at the 
clock and you're like, oh, 

1261
01:28:50,800 --> 01:28:54,160
right, it's no clock. 
And then one of the yards where 

1262
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:57,040
you came back, Florida was 
waiting for you. 

1263
01:28:57,040 --> 01:29:00,200
And you're like, oh, when I 
texted you saying when you've 

1264
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:03,600
run X number of yards and you're
an awesome author, but then 

1265
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:05,720
bang, you're reminded you're a 
bed. 

1266
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:09,320
And. 
Yeah, she I crossed the line and

1267
01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:12,680
she gave me a big hug, but her 
height meant she she just hugged

1268
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:15,760
my legs. 
So I had to walk with her 

1269
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:23,200
hanging off my legs. 
Yeah, as as much as you can't 

1270
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:27,560
expect somebody of that age to 
be crewing for you, she 

1271
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,720
absolutely loved it. 
She, she just the environment 

1272
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:32,680
there. 
She, she loved being there. 

1273
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:35,200
So. 
And it wasn't for sure that I 

1274
01:29:35,480 --> 01:29:39,440
think she was speaking to even I
held Karen saying hello to her. 

1275
01:29:39,440 --> 01:29:41,680
I don't know. 
But I don't know if I'd helped 

1276
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:45,080
us say, have you looked after my
Dolly or something like that? 

1277
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:47,200
Had Karen gave her a doll or 
something? 

1278
01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:52,320
I, I don't know where before the
start of the race, Karen said, 

1279
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:53,800
oh, can you look after this for 
me? 

1280
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:57,280
So she was looking after her 
little doll. 

1281
01:29:57,280 --> 01:29:59,240
I don't know why Karen had it 
with her, whether it was her 

1282
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:03,960
lucky mascot or whatever. 
So yeah, Flora had a had 

1283
01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:05,360
somebody to look after her, not 
just me. 

1284
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:09,560
It was nice, though, that she 
was, you know, getting involved 

1285
01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:12,400
that way as well. 
As you say, it's like the team 

1286
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:16,200
collective, you know, you're all
racing individually, but at the 

1287
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:19,440
same time even to the point. 
And it's not just backyard 

1288
01:30:19,440 --> 01:30:21,520
ultras, ultra running in 
general. 

1289
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:25,160
And I've heard that more on the 
West Highland way the crews come

1290
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:28,560
together. 
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. 

1291
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:35,200
If anybody had needed it, then I
would have been there to help 

1292
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:38,760
them after I'd finished. 
I would have easily accrued for 

1293
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:42,000
them. 
But everybody had somebody. 

1294
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:49,440
I know the next day after I had 
a very cold sleep in my tent, I 

1295
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:52,640
left the net to go to the van 
with Flora and I slept in the 

1296
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:54,440
tent but didn't take a sleeping 
bag. 

1297
01:30:54,440 --> 01:30:58,120
I had my dryer open. 
That was it freezing. 

1298
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:01,760
Somebody gave me their a 
sleeping bag, but there's still 

1299
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:08,560
I wasn't warm the next day. 
Thomas was having bad thoughts 

1300
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:12,800
and I had a word with him but he
had crew so that was was all I 

1301
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:16,760
could do was talk to him and 
leave them to do their job. 

1302
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:20,800
Yeah. 
So how long did you stay for 

1303
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:24,640
once you'd finished? 
When did you leave the event? 

1304
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:36,040
We finished on the Sunday night 
and it was Monday, Monday 

1305
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:40,480
lunchtime ish that we left. 
Yeah, because we went to the 

1306
01:31:40,480 --> 01:31:48,640
cafe at lunchtime on the on the 
Monday, got a hotel nearby for 

1307
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:50,320
that night just so we can get a 
shower. 

1308
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,440
And then we went and stayed in a
campsite in the van halfway up 

1309
01:31:54,440 --> 01:31:59,720
the road for four days on on the
way up the road. 

1310
01:32:00,440 --> 01:32:04,400
And the floor I get swimming. 
She the the campsite was 

1311
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:06,960
deliberately chosen that it had 
a swimming pool, so she got 

1312
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:09,440
every day over there. 
Oh, that was good then. 

1313
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:11,200
And that would help Johnny as 
well. 

1314
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:17,000
Yeah, if they had a sauna or a 
hot tub it would have been fine,

1315
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:18,600
but no, it was just a basic 
swimming pool. 

1316
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:25,560
Oh fantastic. 
So do you have anything planned 

1317
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:31,680
in the calendar moving forwards?
Running wise, no. 

1318
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:38,560
I was deliberately keeping 
everything blank there. 

1319
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:42,000
There's Razzleback next year, 
I've got a place in that because

1320
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:45,560
I won it. 
I've got a place do I want to go

1321
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:49,560
back to Suffolk again? 
And I think the at large list 

1322
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:52,960
for bigs because there's two 
ways to qualify for bigs. 

1323
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:57,040
You can either win your team 
championship or there's 25 

1324
01:32:57,040 --> 01:33:03,720
spaces on the at large list, so 
the 25 next best or maybe best 

1325
01:33:04,840 --> 01:33:08,200
because Sarah won it in 59 
yards. 

1326
01:33:08,200 --> 01:33:14,360
But Matt has got a place as well
with his 88788. 

1327
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:20,600
So if you're up in the 80s then 
you can go to Biggs. 

1328
01:33:21,120 --> 01:33:22,680
Do I do stuff? 
I can try and get that. 

1329
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:26,400
I'll see how my Achilles is. 
Hopefully. 

1330
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:31,040
I haven't looked up whether 
they've announced the silver 

1331
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:35,840
ticket events for, I think it's 
bronze events this year and 

1332
01:33:35,840 --> 01:33:40,120
silver tickets next year. 
So would I do that? 

1333
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:47,200
But the other thing I've got a 
I'm a member of the local Rowing

1334
01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:53,880
Club, withdraw offshore skiffs 
and we are in the World 

1335
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:58,360
Championship next summer. 
So do I concentrate on that? 

1336
01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:03,800
I don't know. 
So you've got an open day there 

1337
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:06,800
for now. 
For now, For now, I've got 

1338
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:11,480
absolutely nothing planned. 
I'm going to stag night on 

1339
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:17,560
Saturday and it's probably the 
first time that I've had alcohol

1340
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:22,400
in six months. 
I think it's the second time in 

1341
01:34:22,400 --> 01:34:24,880
a year. 
That'll be interesting there. 

1342
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:29,240
Yeah, the, the, the, the stag 
night consists of park run in 

1343
01:34:29,240 --> 01:34:34,760
the morning and various things 
through the day and I might get 

1344
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:36,800
to lunchtime and then I'll be 
home again because. 

1345
01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:44,360
We're coming to towards the end 
of the interview. 

1346
01:34:44,440 --> 01:34:48,520
I do have two more questions 
left that I've not quite worked 

1347
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:52,080
out well to slip them in. 
These are kind of anomaly 

1348
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:56,440
questions. 
The first one is one of mine. 

1349
01:34:57,480 --> 01:35:02,720
I was sent a photo of you when I
was starting to get to know the 

1350
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:07,360
ultra running community and was 
told this is my graph and he's 

1351
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:10,480
absolutely nuts. 
This is why you had a dead 

1352
01:35:10,480 --> 01:35:15,360
squirrel on your backpack. 
So what is the squirrel story? 

1353
01:35:16,600 --> 01:35:23,160
Well, there's lots of stories 
and most of them are not true. 

1354
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:26,040
There's a simple answer. 
Simplest answer is usually the 

1355
01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:31,560
best answer. 
And it was during long last 

1356
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:36,920
commute, 250 miles. 
I was 70 miles in and on the 

1357
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:42,080
road, in the middle of the road 
there was a grey squirrel deed. 

1358
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:47,560
It had been, I think it had hit 
the side of a car, a tire or 

1359
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:50,200
something like that. 
It was not alive. 

1360
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:56,720
One of the stories that I've 
heard is I it was alive and I 

1361
01:35:56,720 --> 01:35:58,680
caught it in my bare hands and I
killed it. 

1362
01:35:59,480 --> 01:36:02,360
No, it wasn't. 
It was dead. 

1363
01:36:02,440 --> 01:36:05,640
I, I, I just ran 70 miles. 
I wasn't capable of catching a 

1364
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:11,960
squirrel with my bare hands, but
I knew that it hadn't been there

1365
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:14,880
long because it was in the 
middle of the road. 

1366
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,760
It would have been squished. 
So it was fresh. 

1367
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:20,400
I've never tasted squirrel 
before. 

1368
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:27,920
So I went and picked it up. 
I've got the theory that if, if 

1369
01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:33,200
an animal has lived its best 
life, it's in the wild and 

1370
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:37,240
somebody else has killed it, the
best thing that I can do is 

1371
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:43,920
suffer as you are, honour it's 
life by giving it purpose and 

1372
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:50,400
feeding me. 
So some people won't agree with 

1373
01:36:50,400 --> 01:36:53,840
it, some people vegans. 
You shouldn't. 

1374
01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:58,680
That's my thoughts and you're 
entitled to your own. 

1375
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:05,000
So on you go. 
We I put the squirrel on my 

1376
01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:10,080
backpack, strapped it in as you 
read your poles and carried it 

1377
01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:17,400
for the next 180 miles. 
And I went into the shop because

1378
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:21,320
you're allowed to go into shops 
to the race. 

1379
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:25,080
And the woman almost refused to 
serve me. 

1380
01:37:25,440 --> 01:37:28,480
And it was during the horse meat
scandal at the time. 

1381
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:32,360
And I was, I had the argument 
with her that you're willing to 

1382
01:37:32,360 --> 01:37:36,880
serve that certain brand that 
was involved in the scandal at 

1383
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:38,960
the time, but you won't serve 
me. 

1384
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:44,720
So she served me. 
Did you give her a name for the 

1385
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:47,240
180 miles? 
It was Boris. 

1386
01:37:47,840 --> 01:37:52,160
Boris. 
Yeah, 'cause it's better than 

1387
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:58,440
Mr. Johnson. 
That was I I'd rather be have 

1388
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:02,240
that name associated with 
something that had a purpose. 

1389
01:38:03,480 --> 01:38:05,720
They'll do. 
So that is the squirrel story 

1390
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:10,160
put to bed. 
Yeah, last question from us, as 

1391
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:13,080
it's the last listener question.
I'm probably the one that's 

1392
01:38:13,080 --> 01:38:17,000
closest to me because this is 
from Alexis, my daughter, and I 

1393
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:19,320
think it's quite a nice one to 
close on. 

1394
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:31,640
What made you start the podcast?
Well I started because I hate 

1395
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:33,440
asking people to do stuff for 
me. 

1396
01:38:34,760 --> 01:38:39,120
I I don't feel comfortable 
starting conversations. 

1397
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:43,080
I will quite happily talk to 
people if they talk to me. 

1398
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:49,160
I just don't feel comfortable. 
It's a thing that I want to get 

1399
01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:50,480
over. 
I want to. 

1400
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:55,640
And this podcast was pushing my 
boundaries. 

1401
01:38:56,000 --> 01:39:01,120
It was getting forcing me to 
have this conversation. 

1402
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:04,840
We wouldn't be talking now if it
didn't happen. 

1403
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:08,280
Yeah. 
So that's it. 

1404
01:39:08,320 --> 01:39:14,280
It's basically to push me to 
places that I wouldn't probably 

1405
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:19,400
do without it. 
Well, I think you're doing a 

1406
01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:23,160
really good job of it. 
And as you say, I wouldn't have 

1407
01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:26,040
known about it until meeting 
yesterday. 

1408
01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:29,320
You know, I think it was John 
Cassidy you interviewed because 

1409
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:34,040
they mentioned it on Young 
Hearts that John had been on the

1410
01:39:34,040 --> 01:39:36,760
podcast. 
And that's what then led me 

1411
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:39,520
because at the time it was only 
on YouTube. 

1412
01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:43,120
So I did actively go onto 
YouTube to see John's interview 

1413
01:39:43,480 --> 01:39:45,480
because it was an after an 
event, was it not? 

1414
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:52,680
I can't remember, we were 
sitting in the back of my van 

1415
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:54,800
outside St. 
Johnstone Football Club, but I. 

1416
01:39:54,800 --> 01:40:00,400
Can't remember. 
What the event was, But yeah, it

1417
01:40:00,480 --> 01:40:03,960
was. 
I used to only do it on YouTube 

1418
01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:09,480
because I thought that I wanted 
to do interviews in person, not 

1419
01:40:09,480 --> 01:40:17,600
online, and I wanted to get the 
human interaction, seeing 

1420
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:20,760
people's reactions to it as part
of the experience. 

1421
01:40:21,960 --> 01:40:29,560
But the the the masses of 
audience demanded that I put it 

1422
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:31,920
on podcasts. 
So that's what has happened. 

1423
01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:35,960
I'm more glad you have, because 
now we can listen to you on the 

1424
01:40:35,960 --> 01:40:37,200
run. 
Yeah. 

1425
01:40:39,160 --> 01:40:41,480
So thank you for letting me 
interview you. 

1426
01:40:41,480 --> 01:40:43,800
It's been really, really 
interesting. 

1427
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:47,200
And as you said at the start, 
anyone that knows me knows that 

1428
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:52,840
I could talk for hours so. 
We have been as well, which I 

1429
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:56,240
have no complaints about it. 
It's thank you for doing it. 

1430
01:40:56,640 --> 01:40:58,320
It'll be good for someone's long
run. 

1431
01:40:58,720 --> 01:41:01,800
So if you manage to get to the 
end, I hope that you're smashing

1432
01:41:01,840 --> 01:41:04,520
it. 
I hope you've taken on your fuel

1433
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:08,600
if you've not eaten something 
right now and keep on drinking 

1434
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:11,160
your electrolytes. 
As Sally McRae would say all. 

1435
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:15,920
Right, thank you and goodbye. 
Thank you.