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Good evening and welcome to 
another episode of Run Till 

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You're Done. 
Tonight we are joined by one of 

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the most experienced and 
insightful voices in British 

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ultra running. 
He's a Spain race champion, a 

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stage race winner and a coach 
known for his honesty, clarity 

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and deep understanding of what 
the sport really asks of people.

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He spent years helping runners 
find their strength, rebuild 

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after setbacks and chase the 
kind of goals that change them. 

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What a treat with him for 
tonight. 

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Welcome to the show, Marcus 
Scottner. 

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Thank you so much for having me 
on. 

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And kind of what a wonderful 
introduction. 

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And is that written by Chachi PT
or with that kind of your own 

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research? 
Maybe. 

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It's amazing what chapter PT 
will come here, but once I'd be 

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down as a counsellor so be 
careful when you ask it. 

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Well, when you do have an 
accomplished runner such as 

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yourself about welcome to the 
show, Marcus seems about 

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underwhelming. 
How do you introduce a guest 

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like yourself that's done so 
many epic events? 

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Yeah, thank you. 
I have been really fortunate to 

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be able to keep running for as 
long as I have. 

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And I think, like you're 
alluding to an introduction 

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there. 
Yeah, it's about not just 

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playing common sense, but I do 
lean into a sports science 

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background and that really kind 
of informs not only how I coach,

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but also how I train and look 
after myself as an athlete. 

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And with your sports science 
background, is that what led you

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into running or did you start 
from an early age? 

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Yes, so my running really starts
all the way back in the annals 

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of 1987 when I was 13 years old.
So you start doing a bit of 

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maths, you start kind of working
out how old I was. 

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I got into orienteering 
originally through Mr. 

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Dickinson, a PE teacher who one 
day after cross country, on the 

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way back to kind of changing 
room, said to me, have you ever 

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come across orienteering? 
The school had a really quite 

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active club and I was down in a 
little place called Portishead 

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near Bristol. 
Then grow up and it was quite an

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active schools league and I got,
you know, asked to go along to 

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an event and absolutely loved 
it. 

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It was just great fun running 
around, mapping my hand felt 

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like a little mini adventure 
finding these little controls in

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the forest. 
And I just kind of found I could

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yeah, run and navigate at the 
same time. 

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And that's kind of rid of 
running really started and the 

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introduction to even kind of 
running in the Southwest Junior 

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squad. 
But whilst that was also going 

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on, as I got into my teenage in 
later years and A levels, drugs 

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and rock'n'roll, literally, I'm 
not talking better for him, 

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talking physically, literally 
kind of took over life really. 

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And sports science came about 
kind of by accident. 

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I failed my A levels, I was 
living in Leicester and I 

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decided to try and go back to to
college to do some sort of 

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course. 
And there was a choice between 

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performing arts or sport science
and drama and acting and always 

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been my, that's why I was trying
to get into drama school when I 

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was doing my A levels, but 
unsuccessful. 

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So weirdly, I decided, well, 
let's do sports science because 

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I enjoyed running. 
I'd already done a couple of 

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coaching qualifications. 
And yeah, yeah, I mean, what a 

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influential decision that was 
because taught me all I know 

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about Physiology and got me 
interested in that kind of 

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science and kind of being a very
kind of science background. 

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And even on the bookcase behind 
me, that's my original exercise 

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Physiology book down there in 
the corner all the way from kind

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of 1992. 
So, yeah, so that, you know, was

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the introduction to sports 
science, but it hadn't really 

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become a big part of my running 
till kind of more later on in 

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the 2000s, really. 
And in in the 2000s, was there a

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a point that you went, I'm a 
runner? 

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It's a good question, isn't it? 
Am I am IA runner. 

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So for more intering, I then go 
into kind of more road running 

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and kind of shorter endurance 
half marathons when I lived in 

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the kind of Southwest Scotland, 
doing a lot of Rd. races around 

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there. 
And I'd always, you know, it was

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like a, a key hobby. 
Yeah, soon as I always did, I 

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trained every day, sometimes 
twice a bit. 

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I was even training twice a day 
back in the 90s when I was doing

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short distance. 
And it was more just, it was, I 

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wouldn't say I was a runner. 
I was just like a hobbyist 

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runner. 
It was something I I did, you 

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know, with friends that went 
into football or other 

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activities. 
Yeah, I was just into to 

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running. 
That's where my social scene 

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was. 
That was my my tribe. 

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And yeah, everything kind of it 
already then was a roving around

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their holidays stuff be kind of 
picking and choosing. 

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But you didn't have like the 
ultra scene what you have now. 

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You know, it was enjoy its 
races. 

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I remember reading in Runners 
World in the kind of the 90s of 

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these people doing these hundred
mile races, but there were 

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really few and far between. 
You know, you could count on 

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your hands how many races and 
you had the 100 KS going on. 

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And one of the classic plans was
that London to Brighton 

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endurance race. 
And you know, and there's also 

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the famous ones around kind of 
Falkirk as well. 

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So it, it was a really small 
scene. 

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And then, yeah, as I got more 
into the Nordism, really started

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getting a bit more involved in 
running club. 

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And there was a couple of guys 
in our running club in Dumfries 

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who were running for Scotland at
100K and I got a bit kind of 

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curious about it was kind of 
like, yeah, the sea was just 

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starting to to grow. 
And then 2008 was when I really 

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stepped into my first ultra. 
So officially my first ultra was

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back in 1994 when I ran from 
Elam at Edale Youth Hostel to 

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Elam Youth Hostel as a 35 mile 
race to try and qualify for the 

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Caravans National Mountain 
Marathon. 

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But yeah, 2008 it was because I 
was then starting to chase a 

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Scotland or England 100K vest. 
And I think that's when I then 

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started going, OK, this is 
becoming more serious. 

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And then when I got selected to 
run for England and then Great 

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Britain, it was like, yeah, now,
now I'm and I'm not saying that 

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we have to be achieving great 
things to be recognised as a 

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runner. 
And I prefer to the people I 

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work with in coach, I call them 
athletes, not not runners, 

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because I think an athlete is 
such a more nuanced term and 

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kind of shows like dedication 
and how it's kind of more 

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embedded in all you're doing 
where running is just the 

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activity. 
So yeah, it was that kind of 

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slow progression. 
But if you ask a lot of my old 

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friends or people I still know 
from that time, they'll be like,

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yeah, it's always been been 
running. 

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I expect it's my mum and dad. 
They'll be like, yeah, it's been

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running for years. 
What was the name of that first 

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race that you did and is it 
still around? 

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No, unfortunately not so. 
It's organised by the Youth 

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Hostel Association and there was
22 versions, 1 you could start 

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in Croydon, Croydon Youth 
Hostel, which no longer exists 

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as well. 
It's no functioning youth 

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hostel. 
And you went over Kinder and 

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down into Edel, and that's where
we then started. 

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And we then went from Edale down
through the Peak District, just 

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visiting of youth hostels. 
And there was no set route in 

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between. 
But there's always best lines. 

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And yeah, it was 35 miles. 
I had a caramel ice axe 

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rucksack, which is an old 
climbing rucksack because we 

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didn't have running packs. 
I caught really bad chafing in 

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places. 
You know what? 

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Bad chafing. 
And there was a guy Mike from 

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Dark PQ pulled out his kind of 
film canisters and again shows 

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you a 1994 film canister. 
Remember when you had to wind a 

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film on in your camera? 
He pulled out a film kind of 

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full of like Vaseline. 
So you're really useful tip. 

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Yeah. 
I can't remember how long as I 

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ended up. 
I was at 3rd. 

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At one point I dropped down to 
5th, but I just remember just 

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being absolutely broken. 
It was like when I did my first 

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road 100K race. 
I've never felt pain like that 

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in my life. 
But we had a bit of spine 

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conditions in April. 
I've got photo of me going up 

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Cavedale just outside Castleton 
in snow. 

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It snowed at the start. 
And yeah, it was an interesting 

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introduction to ultra marathons 
when they were really called 

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ultra marathons. 
Those film canisters, I've used 

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them for things like sugar or 
tailwind or that that type of 

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thing. 
So they they still go about. 

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I'm not sure how you get them 
nowadays. 

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My ones are probably BPA D 
leaked into the food. 

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You shouldn't use them but. 
Yeah, I used to find them really

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good for safety pins as well, 
the storage. 

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So you can always just kick them
and you kick back. 

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But yeah, and I, I, I use a 
little, if we can do any 

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advertising, girly goo now is 
the the, the best ultra 

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lubricant. 
We can definitely do 

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advertising. 
We will tag them in on Instagram

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and everything like that. 
Not that I'm sponsored by them, 

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unfortunately. 
Yeah, that's a very, you know, 

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Gates for a short question. 
Yeah, it's it's it's wonderful. 

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And I reflect back and I'm so, I
feel so fortunate as an athlete 

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to have been able to have such 
a, a long career as well, where 

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I know so many people whose 
running career have been cut 

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short or those of I warranted 
with back in the 80s and 90s who

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are no longer running. 
And yeah, I'm, I'm really 

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grateful. 
But again, I think that's 

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because of as I got older, my 
approach towards it has kind of 

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been varied. 
You mentioned about looking for 

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a Scotland or England vest. 
Most people aren't in the market

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for for either or at all. 
How did what? 

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What sort of qualifies you for 
either of those, and how did you

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choose or what chose you? 
Yeah. 

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Well, so it came about because 
there was two guys in our 

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running club down in Dumfries. 
And if I listen to probably know

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who they are, when I was down at
the Dumfries half to Year 4 

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last, I was trying something 
which is quite interesting and 

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they were running for Scotland 
at 100K. 

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And I've been doing, I've done a
marathon. 

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Yeah, I've done Lock S, which 
was my first Rd. marathon around

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2:33. 
I was like, well, maybe I'm 

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fairly reasonable at long 
distance, maybe this could be a 

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goer. 
And I felt like, I felt running 

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for the Scotland, that'd be 
quite a course. 

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They're completely egotistical 
really like. 

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And so I was then inquiring 
about how do I go about, because

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I was also a lot quicker than 
these other guys, you know, I 

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was beating them quite, quite a 
bit, timing and half marathons. 

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So I inquired about the 
selection process and one of 

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them was the the Devil of 
Highlands, which was I did in 

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2008, had an amazing race with 
Jez Bragg. 

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He's got, I think his blog is 
still available out there 

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online. 
I found it when I was preparing 

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for it two years ago. 
Hit the race and then there was 

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a little bit owing and owing. 
I said, Oh yeah, we'd like you 

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to go and do another, another 
event. 

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So then went into the 35 mile 
race down near Rugby around a 

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reservoir, which is like four or
five laps. 

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What won that race, which I was 
like, OK, this is going, it's 

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going quite well. 
But then I got there, Scotland 

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was saying, Oh yeah, we want you
to go to another race. 

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We want to make sure I'm like 
OK. 

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And ended up going all the way 
down to Littlehampton near 

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Brighton. 
I mean, This Is Us living in 

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Dumfries. 
We have family in the Midlands. 

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So that wasn't too bad a journey
went and did that and they were 

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still humming and R ING 
Scotland, where in fact, no, 

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that's when I then went into the
the next one was to run around a

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reservoir and when I completed 
that, the England management 

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were there and were like that's 
couldn't have to get in Pundra 

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painting. 
So that evening I emailed 

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England and switch my legs even 
though I was living in Scotland 

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was kind of based there. 
But my I was also being coached 

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at the time by former world 100K
champion Carolyn Hunter Rowe, 

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who had set a world record at 
100K as well. 

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So really interesting to work 
lines her. 

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So yeah, I would had to go 
through quite a few hoops and 

225
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,320
gain the qualifying times, which
I was able to do. 

226
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:15,120
And then, yeah, I got to go out 
to Galway Bay Run, my first road

227
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,840
100K, which that in itself was 
an experience because that was a

228
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,600
one mile up and down the same 
piece of road 32 times. 

229
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:33,800
And yeah, it really kind of 
showed how much up to running is

230
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:41,400
about that mental fortitude and 
not getting distracted or caught

231
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,600
up in other people's races and 
things like that. 

232
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:52,120
But yeah, after I finished that 
race, which I finished third, 

233
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,040
which, you know, I was pretty 
amazed about, but I kind of 

234
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,720
messed the pacing up. 
But I just remember getting back

235
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,200
into the hotel room and lying up
on the hotel floor going, I 

236
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,800
can't move my legs. 
And they were like fizzing. 

237
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,200
They were tingling all over. 
It was like nothing I'd 

238
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,600
experienced in my life and was 
like, Oh my God. 

239
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,720
Well, if I down to my legs, they
got better. 

240
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,840
So yeah. 
And, and annoyingly, on the back

241
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,000
of that, I also qualified for at
my first GB vest to run in the 

242
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,360
World Trail Series, World World 
Trail Champs, but I couldn't 

243
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,720
take it up because of my job. 
And that was a bit. 

244
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,760
You said your legs were in bits.
How would you? 

245
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,680
How did you deal with it and how
would that differ than what you 

246
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:52,960
would do? 
Now, I think that part part of 

247
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,160
that is also just that learning 
experience. 

248
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,240
It was such a steep uphill and 
people are turning your stuff 

249
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,960
and your research then was a 
lot, lot kind of more minimal. 

250
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,440
And I just remember it taking 
days and days and it was just 

251
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,880
about cutting back over 
training, focusing on nutrition 

252
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,480
and just, you know, looking 
after, after myself. 

253
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,840
But the more I did the 100K, the
quicker the recovery was getting

254
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,320
the same by most ultras now. 
Yeah. 

255
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,880
Yeah. 
The legs are still sore. 

256
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,320
I think as the central nervous 
system gets to know what it's 

257
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,040
been put through and as our 
brain adapts into it as well, 

258
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,680
you know, we we start that 
recovering far quicker and it's 

259
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,440
less of a shock and stress and 
strain upon the body. 

260
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,480
But yeah, it was just trying to 
take things really easy for a 

261
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,720
couple of weeks. 
And I think I may have had like 

262
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:49,840
impression tights on to fly back
in. 

263
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:55,000
And it's a comical walking off a
plane that you've almost kind of

264
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,080
Ivy part of my franchise shake 
yourself off for like you've got

265
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,720
some severe leg injury when 
you're so completely 

266
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:07,720
self-inflicted. 
So your 100K road running 

267
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:13,400
adventures very much tougher to 
your multi day adventures such 

268
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,119
as Spain, Cape Wrath, Dragon's 
Back. 

269
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,760
How? 
How do you go from wearing your 

270
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:27,000
GB vest and getting England 
qualifying vest to doing 

271
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,480
adventure races like that and 
winning those effectively? 

272
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:39,040
Yeah, I mean, I'd always been 
training off road and I'd always

273
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,520
done hill running and neon 
tearing and the mountain 

274
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:47,920
marathons in the background. 
And so it's easy to kind of make

275
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,760
that kind of switch across the 
the issue I sometimes have, 

276
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,600
especially to begin with, was I 
was arrogant thinking I could 

277
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,640
take the, the speed from the 
100K in into the trail, as I 

278
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,640
remember going to do the late 
than 50 and just running away 

279
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,920
too, too fast early on and 
having a really disastrous run. 

280
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,280
But I've always been somebody, 
you know, who's tried seeking 

281
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,800
all my training off road. 
I think the most time I've ever 

282
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,280
trained on roads when I lived in
Dumfries itself, Before I lived 

283
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,000
in Dumfries, I was in a small 
town, Dalbetty, which, you know,

284
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,440
has backed on to woods. 
So I've always kept that element

285
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,720
of my training to be off road. 
And so I found it very easy to 

286
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,720
make that transition. 
But it does require a very 

287
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,440
different kind of pacing 
approach where 100 Ki, call it 

288
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,480
kind of metronomic. 
You kind of like, right, I want 

289
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,880
to try and run this pace at this
target time. 

290
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,720
You set off at that and you try 
and maintain it until the body 

291
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,600
at some point goes very much 
where trail is. 

292
00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,160
Yeah, you've got to pace it 
early on, be, you know, adaptive

293
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:06,240
to what the course is like and 
what the terrain, how it alters 

294
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,920
and changes. 
So yeah, just like different 

295
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,040
approach. 
You've got runners like Jim 

296
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:21,240
Lumsley who go all in red line 
the whole way and if it works, 

297
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,360
course record broken. 
Some people see that as 

298
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,840
arrogance, but it works for him 
most of the well some of the 

299
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,320
time. 
And if it doesn't, it blows up 

300
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,760
and he'll learn from it. 
Do you think that's the 

301
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,760
arrogance that you're talking 
about, or were you going into it

302
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,480
thinking that you could do that?
Yeah, I suppose there is that 

303
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,680
element of, well, I've ran this 
time I'm 100K on the road, so I 

304
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,600
should be able to run that time 
off road as well. 

305
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,720
And I suppose it's, it's more of
a naivety and just an arrogance.

306
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,800
And I think when you look at the
likes of kind of Jim Molesley, 

307
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,960
Tom Evans, Hayden Hawks and I 
talked to him everything he 

308
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,760
knows, kind of, we spent a week 
out in Costa Rica and she had a 

309
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,320
hotel room when he first was 
starting his running career. 

310
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,000
Shared everything. 
So that's, you know, a little 

311
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,000
bit of gossip there. 
He might, he might deny it, but 

312
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,280
if you ever get him on, just 
say, oh, what that week with 

313
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,000
Marcus and Costa Rica? 
I'm sure you can put a word in 

314
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,160
for us. 
Boost your listeners. 

315
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,200
And so I think I think it can 
come across as an arrogance you 

316
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,480
but those sort of, you know, 
they are Creme de la Creme 

317
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,480
athletes and their full time as 
well. 

318
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,480
So they've got the capacity to 
be training at a really high 

319
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,640
level because they can then 
spend the rest of the day feet 

320
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,600
up recovering. 
And like us mere mortals who 

321
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,920
have to do jobs as well and 
which impacts our recovery. 

322
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:04,000
So they're able to have that 
higher level of Physiology that 

323
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,920
enables them in which we might 
be looking at going, well, if I 

324
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:13,040
tried that, I'd be red lighting 
it where for them probably still

325
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:17,920
within their ability. 
And if you look at their their 

326
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,040
background as well, you know, 
both all three of them as an 

327
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,640
example. 
And even if you look at people 

328
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,280
like Kilian as well, if you look
at what their half marathon and 

329
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,600
marathon times are, yeah, it's 
astounding what Tom Evans is. 

330
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,640
Has he got 63 or 62 minute and 
locker when he ran for GBA 

331
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,280
couple of years ago at the World
half Marathon championships. 

332
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,840
So they've got that that whole 
range of Physiology. 

333
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,440
They've got the engine 
underneath. 

334
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,440
And I think that then gives them
the ability and yeah, I mean, 

335
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:51,840
they get it. 
They get it wrong very nice 

336
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,960
sometimes, which is the wonders 
of of racing and the body 

337
00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,080
sometimes doesn't always play 
ball, you know, and the 

338
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,960
nutrition can go awry or 
something comes up and but it's 

339
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,520
kind of ask what makes racing so
exciting and it's not it's not 

340
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,880
completely certain, you know, 
there's so many uncertainties 

341
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,720
what what always are the outcome
or potentially change it. 

342
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,680
And I'm going to ask what's 
probably in my head a DAF Nikki 

343
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,680
question, but I think these are 
the questions that people really

344
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,240
like to hear from me because I 
think everybody else one does 

345
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,160
these kind of things. 
When you do your events such as 

346
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:37,880
Katra Dragon's back, do you 
actually run up the hills or do 

347
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:46,880
you fast hike them? 
It's a mixture, and it almost 

348
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,760
goes a bit like that. 
We were talking about the kind 

349
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,480
of Tim Walmsley thing. 
You're well, for me, I'm always 

350
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,920
gauging how I'm feeling and 
what's degrading. 

351
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,920
Like am I, am I feeling good 
enough to be able to move up 

352
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:03,760
this hill? 
And also, especially if you're 

353
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,640
in the competition of what is 
the benefit of me maybe going a 

354
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,720
little bit deeper here or just 
bidding my time and walking and 

355
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,400
having a bit of a bit of a rest.
So absolutely, there's some 

356
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,400
hills. 
I am walking quite happily up 

357
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,720
there, stuffing my face full of 
food because, again, that's a 

358
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,840
good opportunity to get the food
in. 

359
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,680
There's other times where it's 
at a grade and I'm like, yeah, 

360
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,440
I'm going to go for this stuff. 
The classic one, Kate Wrath, if 

361
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,640
you watch the BMC film, which is
on YouTube from the 2016 first 

362
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,800
edition, Day Day 5 is where I 
really make my move on Tom 

363
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,360
Adams. 
And there's a clip of us getting

364
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,560
up into Fisher Fields and the 
course turns off the main track 

365
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,240
and goes up this little pathless
side of a hill. 

366
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,160
And I'm just like, right, I'm 
going to keep keep running here.

367
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,080
Now. 
I'm not, I'm not. 

368
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,280
And and that was purely because 
I know I wanted to try and snap,

369
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,760
snap the elastic. 
But Tom, I could sense you were 

370
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:12,520
struggling. 
So yeah, I mean, I always say to

371
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,720
athletes of a lot of races, you 
are better off walking. 

372
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,560
That's my coach gives me and I 
am sticking to that 

373
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,680
wholeheartedly. 
Yeah, it's sensible, isn't it? 

374
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,880
Yeah, definitely. 
You've got again and it's also 

375
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,400
making sure, though, that you 
maybe sometimes you're walking 

376
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,800
with a purpose because I think 
sometimes we can when we say 

377
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,720
walk up a hill that we kind of 
go kind of like High Street kind

378
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,080
of oh, just that for an atom. 
But where you still want to be 

379
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,440
walking with a degree of purpose
because the clock's still 

380
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,040
ticking. 
So that in itself in the 

381
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,160
training, you know, if you look 
likes again, going back to Tom 

382
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:57,920
Evans and power hiking up colder
ferret on UT MB Yeah, he is 

383
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,800
power hiking at incredible pace 
and he and he trains at that. 

384
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,920
And I think as athletes, you 
know, if we are going to be 

385
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,240
walking a bit or even when I'm 
training a pair, you know, in 

386
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,920
the hills, there I'll be times I
will just be power hiking and 

387
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,960
walking, keeping the heart rate 
a little bit high. 

388
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,400
And because you need to learn 
that muscle movement as well as 

389
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,040
getting that visual stimulant to
get a bit of walking. 

390
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,200
One of the races just passed the
last episode we had was Ross 

391
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,760
having just finished the the 
spine race. 

392
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,640
You've done Challenger, Have you
done any any of the other ones? 

393
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,960
No. 
No. 

394
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,080
I assume that some of that even 
like it's not just hills, it's 

395
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,360
things like snow and the terrain
takes takes a toll. 

396
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:49,920
So you have to, you can't like 
run through the river even 

397
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,400
though you want to sort of 
thing. 

398
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:59,640
Yeah, it's, it's, it's modifying
your, your races. 

399
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,760
It's unfolding to 1 how, how 
you're feeling. 

400
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,560
And so how easy is it to move 
across. 

401
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,120
So if you're coming to a really 
boggy area, then you're 

402
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:14,440
modifying that effort. 
And I think it also comes down 

403
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,280
to what your what your outcome 
and what you're trying to to 

404
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,400
achieve as as well. 
So for myself, and the first 

405
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,960
time I did the spine ratio, I 
was at the front of the, you 

406
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,440
know, leading the race and I was
running quite a bit, though 

407
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,600
interestingly, the last 60 
miles. 

408
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:37,440
So from the bottom of pen again,
and we didn't have to drop into 

409
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,400
Horton the air. 
I did it was able to take the 

410
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,160
three beaks route. 
It took me 4 hours to do 16 

411
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:48,760
miles because I was absolutely 
broken. 

412
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,960
I, I spent more of that point. 
I, I literally could not get 

413
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,560
into a run in the tour. 
I was like doing this weird 

414
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,120
hybrid run walk. 
And there's some great pictures 

415
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,440
of me coming into whores. 
It's kind of how I'm probably 

416
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,360
going to look when I'm 80 or 90 
years old, bent over like some 

417
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,120
old man hobbling into whore was 
about to come in collector's 

418
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:17,840
pension. 
And yeah, absolutely in bits. 

419
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,720
And and you know, yeah, you're 
right, Mike. 

420
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,840
You know, you've, you've got to 
to kind of alter and, you know, 

421
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,080
make sure you have that 
adaptability in your race plan 

422
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:33,040
as well. 
You know, it's all really 

423
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,440
important and it is so important
to have a a race strategy and 

424
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,440
plan for things like fuelling 
kit pacing, just so you get an 

425
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,440
idea of, you know, how much food
you're going to need or how long

426
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,240
you're going to be on certain 
sections. 

427
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,480
But you also know the kind of 
plan B&C for if that starts 

428
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,760
falling apart or if you get 
snow. 

429
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,560
Like the start of this year's 
spine races. 

430
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,520
In 2014 we had snow upon Kinder,
but it wasn't that bad. 

431
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,360
The second year I went back, 
2015, we had a big name storm 

432
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:11,280
came over and the race should 
have been held back and it was 

433
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,880
stopped for a bit, but I was 
already out on the course and I 

434
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,760
got blown off my feet twice upon
Kinder was literally picked up 

435
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,720
and it was like 40-50 mile an 
hour winds up on Kinder and 

436
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,120
ended up spraining my ankle, 
which is rather annoying. 

437
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,680
It's a very short race that 
yeah, but yeah, it's it. 

438
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,640
And and I think that's where 
again, the planning and that 

439
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,560
having a bit of strategy, 
spending a bit of time. 

440
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,240
So I didn't get out much on the 
pen and way the first time I did

441
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,200
it. 
But I used to be this fantastic 

442
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,360
website of this guy who'd walked
it and there were hundreds of 

443
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,560
photos of the course, absolute 
hundreds. 

444
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,560
And I just spent ages just 
looking all through those photos

445
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,560
and getting my head around it. 
And but now you can sit and 

446
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,720
watch stuff on YouTube. 
Can't give us loads of videos 

447
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,800
and bits like that. 
So you can start getting an 

448
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,000
idea. 
And then you've also got 

449
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,520
different split times from 
people doing the race now. 

450
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,680
So you can be looking at other 
people's times again, right? 

451
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,960
How would that section equate to
what I'm going to be doing? 

452
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,720
And again, just creating quite a
nice strategic plan for 

453
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:24,840
attacking the race. 
And you're a coach and how does 

454
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,080
do do you tell people to train 
for that sort of thing, like 

455
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,040
train that they're going to be 
walking? 

456
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,320
And does that include your own 
own training as well? 

457
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,440
I I think you want to, if you, 
you know, and it depends on 

458
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,360
where where you live, where 
you're based. 

459
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,920
And ideally, yeah, the more time
you can spend on that terrain, 

460
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,400
that the more of advantage 
you're going to get because 

461
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,680
you're going to be training the 
muscles, but also neuromuscular.

462
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,440
You're going to be kind of 
training the brain to cope with 

463
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,680
that proprioception and ability 
to move over. 

464
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,440
That's one of the reasons why I 
ended up doing Cape Breath, 

465
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,640
because Shane only had written 
an article promoting the race in

466
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,680
Training magazine. 
And he said, like, the Peak 

467
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,200
District was a great area for 
training for it. 

468
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,640
And I lived in the Peak District
and like, yeah, great. 

469
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,760
OK, you know, what more excuse 
do I need? 

470
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,960
And then Sarah, who won it last 
year with me, she's based in 

471
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160
Sheffield. 
And when we were chatting at the

472
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,400
finish and afterwards, you know,
we, she'd been doing the same 

473
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,840
runs that I had been doing when 
I was living in the Peak 

474
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,360
District as as well on certain 
bits of routes there, because 

475
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,880
they're very similar to what 
you're experiencing at Cape 

476
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,000
Wrath. 
So I think the, the short answer

477
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,960
is something roughly honest as 
absolutely. 

478
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:52,240
But then if you can't be 
creative of your training and 

479
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,800
that, you know, sometimes it 
might mean you have to do some 

480
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,800
boring loops or yeah, maybe kind
of way a bit tracked, you know, 

481
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,400
it's yeah. 
And and to carve some time out 

482
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,040
and saying, right, I'm going to 
drive for an hour because I can 

483
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,800
go and do some, some training 
there. 

484
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,600
And, and it's also that's what's
really important to disconnect 

485
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,400
the ego from the training, 
because if you are going to 

486
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,720
train on that sort of terrain, 
you're going to probably move 

487
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,360
them far slower than what you're
used to on the road or other 

488
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,760
stuff. 
And you know, the ego will just 

489
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,640
be going, Oh my goodness, you 
know, you're really slow. 

490
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,960
But as I always tell all my 
athletes that, you know, our, 

491
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:39,080
our body, our Physiology doesn't
care about pace, doesn't give a 

492
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,000
who not interested all it's 
interested in how hard it's 

493
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,960
being made to work, which is why
I'm a big fan of using heart 

494
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,680
beating in training and 
coaching. 

495
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,440
And, you know, it's the ego 
which is the one at the end of a

496
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,560
run going, Oh my goodness, 2 
minutes slower or, Oh my God, 

497
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,520
look how slow our pace was. 
So it's, yeah, really important.

498
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,240
Yeah. 
I've coached a few athletes for 

499
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:08,280
Kate Ruff from America and it's 
been really anxious found. 

500
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,240
You know, I've been saying to 
get on the roughest trail as 

501
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,040
possible. 
It did have one couple who 

502
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,200
unfortunately were unsuccessful 
or unsuccessful at Kate Brath. 

503
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,040
Didn't get to do the full course
but drop down. 

504
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,880
So they kind of explorer. 
But yeah, we were all joking 

505
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,360
that they should have made me 
filled a bath with porridge and 

506
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,280
just spent hours and hours just 
walking in porridge in a bath to

507
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,840
kind of simulate what it's like 
running on part of the Cape 

508
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,000
Brath Trail. 
If it's a wet, yeah. 

509
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,840
If it's a dry year, you're in 
luck. 

510
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,320
You've really sold it there, 
Marcus. 

511
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:43,680
What? 
Kate Wrath. 

512
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:47,560
This is a problem. 
Every year I do it. 

513
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,280
It's beautiful weather. 
It's amazing because all the 

514
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,920
photos look good. 
And then you get some really wet

515
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,640
coping years and it's like, 
yeah, it's a mod fest. 

516
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,640
I've heard most American trails 
described as manicured. 

517
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,480
I think that's not a word you 
use in Kate Wrath. 

518
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,840
Yeah, no, definitely not. 
Yeah, yeah. 

519
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,320
You, you can't get away with 
some of your nice smooth 

520
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,640
American trailer shoes, what 
they have out there. 

521
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,720
So it's a very, very different 
surface. 

522
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,360
See, I think after the last few 
conversations we've had on the 

523
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,280
podcast, Mike, particularly when
they're focused on the Pennine 

524
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,040
way especially, I feel like the 
West Highland weighs now 

525
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,160
manicured as well. 
So with the sounds of it. 

526
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,400
Compared to some it is, yeah. 
Yeah, 100%. 

527
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,000
I mean, the only technical bit 
you've got on the West Highland 

528
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,320
Way is after him besnayed. 
Yeah, yeah. 

529
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:49,960
You know the rest of it, when I 
did it two years ago of a guy 

530
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,840
who won it, whose name now 
eludes me, he wore alpha flies. 

531
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,440
The guy from Carnefy. 
Yeah, I've had. 

532
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,880
That on the show before. 
Yeah, yeah, I was wearing alpha 

533
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:07,280
flies. 
Yep, and and we had and we had a

534
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,360
whole section on his episode 
where we chatted about that. 

535
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,960
It's a good. 
I'll have to go back and listen 

536
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:13,520
to that. 
There we go. 

537
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,800
Plug in that. 
So what, which, what date was 

538
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,520
that? 
Like everybody going back. 

539
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:19,920
And we'll send you the link. 
Yeah. 

540
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,440
And please do, please do. 
But yeah, yeah, I mean, 

541
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,320
phenomenal to to run that course
in alpha flies. 

542
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,040
But like you say, yeah, it is 
so, so manicure and it's so 

543
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,000
smooth in places. 
Same with that even the devil 

544
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,360
top it. 
You know you can you can get 

545
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,360
away about kind of trail shoes 
on that section as well. 

546
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:49,000
Yeah, and evolution of trails, 
like back back in like 20 years 

547
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,600
ago, you couldn't come down 
Conic Hill in Alpha Flies. 

548
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,920
It just wouldn't happen. 
And then there's a bit, it's 

549
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,000
about 40 miles in. 
We used to call it Cow Shit 

550
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,880
Alley, where the farmer would 
deliberately go and put his cows

551
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,560
down. 
So they've churned up the trail.

552
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,240
But it's it's a path now. 
It's just things evolve. 

553
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,760
Yeah, that's just about Craig 
and Lyric, isn't it? 

554
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,520
That was renowned as a kind of 
shit alley. 

555
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,400
Yeah, I remember when I think. 
Yeah, because it was. 

556
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,880
That was it when they had the 
the selection race, the British 

557
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:34,200
champs on it, where Damian Hall 
finished second and Donnie 

558
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,480
Campbell was first. 
Was that the final year when 

559
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,240
they had Kashi Ali and then it 
was every surfaced after that? 

560
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:41,800
Yeah, not sure when they got rid
of it. 

561
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,720
But I was, yeah, I was helping 
Hawk at that time that weekend, 

562
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:49,080
so it was a good lapser in that 
place. 

563
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,840
And to add to the cottonic hill,
you can't come down that you 

564
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,640
struggle to come down that now 
as well. 

565
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,120
Like that is the only hill that 
even for me I am faster going up

566
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:04,280
at the down that. 
It's those steps are just kind 

567
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,360
of so I mean you can see where 
they've done it for erosion, but

568
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,520
it does take a certain skill and
ability to be able to come down.

569
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,960
It's just not enough of that on 
the West side of my area. 

570
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,400
I think, I think Rob Sinclair 
paid them so as that his record 

571
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,120
couldn't get beat. 
I wonder how many people just 

572
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,280
skip down the side. 
I know, but you can't do that in

573
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:31,160
your alpha. 
Flies can. 

574
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,000
No, they actually did too 
Marshall it to make sure people 

575
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,280
don't so. 
Is that yeah, because there's 

576
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,720
one of my athletes was there two
years ago or weaving who I was 

577
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:45,320
so focused I hadn't recognised 
until afterwards. 

578
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,120
And it was kind of give me a 
good bit of grief and 

579
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,800
encouragement at the same time. 
And it was afterwards he 

580
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,800
messaged me on social media 
saying that was me. 

581
00:36:52,840 --> 00:37:00,240
I was like, but yeah, it's it 
doesn't make it very conducive 

582
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:02,200
for flying down. 
It doesn't. 

583
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,080
I'd be interested to see kind of
what Rome was like going down 

584
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:11,400
that in his alpha flies. 
So back to your race then with 

585
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,000
the many that you have done, is 
there a race when you do look 

586
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,920
back at your photos and maybe 
even occasionally on the 

587
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,760
YouTube, that means more to you 
now than when you actually done 

588
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,200
it? 
Yeah. 

589
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,080
I mean, this is a really 
interesting question. 

590
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,040
And part of it is more of a kind
of, you know, I would almost say

591
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,440
with the situation, I'm finding 
myself in more of a life at the 

592
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,440
moment with finding myself in 
academia. 

593
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:45,280
You're about to start PhD, which
is something I, you know, 

594
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:51,680
somebody who was old at school, 
was not very clever and didn't 

595
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,720
do well at school, came out with
1A level. 

596
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,640
And then NI mean who else gets 
an N as an A level? 

597
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,920
I can get an N so I can near 
miss or nearly there. 

598
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,440
You know, I never quite 
understood 1 N men. 

599
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,120
I find out to spell my name 
right. 

600
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,360
But, but, but for me, like, you 
know, when I, I, I'm really 

601
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,440
fortunate all the races I've 
been able to do, but I don't 

602
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,000
think any of them have really 
come close to now what I'm what 

603
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,440
I really feel like I'm achieving
in in life and having this 

604
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,040
opportunity. 
But then if you were to say, OK,

605
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,760
what you know, now it's down to 
one race. 

606
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,720
It's that easy to say. 
And that has to be of a Dragons 

607
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:38,800
back race without a shadow of a 
doubt. 

608
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,280
And part of that is not just 
because it's an absolute amazing

609
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,560
trophy, but it's just the 
history of the event. 

610
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:56,920
I remember that even back in 
1992, seeing the race on 

611
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,640
Transworld Sport, which used to 
be this programme on Channel 4 

612
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:06,800
and Saturday or Sunday morning, 
and it had races for kind of 

613
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,920
really weird sporting events all
around the world, Red Bull 

614
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,400
events stuff. 
And I remember seeing the 

615
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,040
episode with Dragon's back race 
in it, which you can now see on 

616
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,680
YouTube as well. 
So it's available to watch on 

617
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,560
YouTube. 
And just being blown away. 

618
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,680
And then meeting some of those 
people who were involved in that

619
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,960
race, like Joe Faulkner, Mark 
Cartel, Craig Harwood, Mark 

620
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,920
McDermott. 
Yeah. 

621
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,280
These were. 
Yeah. 

622
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,720
Mark Cartel held the original 
Lakes 24 records. 

623
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,960
And, you know, these were some 
of the early guys doing Bob 

624
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,240
Grimes and kind of, you know, 
Ramsey rounds and just doing 

625
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:49,920
some amazing endurance feats 
and, you know, to go climbing as

626
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,280
well. 
And after the days running or 

627
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,760
climbing, we just sat in the pub
and hearing about Towers of the 

628
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:02,000
Dragon's back, you know, Mark 
Cartel and Helen Dermantis. 

629
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,800
Mark Cartel. 
Martin Stone. 

630
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:05,920
Sorry. 
Martin Stone and Helen 

631
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,120
Dermantis. 
Do you have to do it at a pair 

632
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,080
then as well, just for kind of 
safety. 

633
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,160
And yeah, pulling through on Day
5. 

634
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,640
And it was talked about so many 
times of trying to bring it 

635
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:19,720
back. 
Yeah. 

636
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:22,880
There's so many whispers now and
again, so many was trying to 

637
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,000
reprise it. 
And in 2012 when Shane only. 

638
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,480
Managed to bring it back and I 
was really fortunate that I was 

639
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,360
on kind of gardening leave from 
the job. 

640
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:37,840
Was able to help out for a week 
and Oh my God working on it is 

641
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,280
way harder than running it. 
Running the Dragons is so much 

642
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,000
easier than working on it. 
Have full admiration for any of 

643
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,040
the people who help out on on 
Chains events. 

644
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,680
It's a great way. 
If you are interested in doing 

645
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,200
slightly Dragons back Kate Wrath
of Norman Traverse, go and work 

646
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,680
on it. 
Get to see what it's like for 

647
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,840
the competitors as well as the 
helping out. 

648
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,640
But that year, 2012, seeing 
Steve Birkinshaw and Rob Steve 

649
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,160
Birkinshaw has always been one 
of my kind of running heroes for

650
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,760
years and years. 
Just seeing him getting 

651
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:14,240
absolutely trashed by the 
course, just absolutely done in 

652
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:16,880
by it and I was like I can never
do this. 

653
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,720
Never ever get anywhere near you
remote doing it. 

654
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,600
And then there's a one-on-one. 
OK, Ralph is like, what's next? 

655
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,360
I was going what's next? 
But I'm not going what's next. 

656
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,200
I'm people motivate because I 
love pit Ralph. 

657
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,800
I just remember this kind of 
moment of realisation about a 

658
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,400
month. 
I was like, oh, I'm going to 

659
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,160
have to do Dragons back. 
Aren't I going to have to do the

660
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,600
Dragons back? 
Oh no. 

661
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,160
And interestingly, I have talked
about if you have kind of 

662
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,440
podcast and blogs. 
But six weeks before I nearly 

663
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:57,520
pulled out, yeah, I was like, 
really questioning if if I could

664
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,840
even complete it, let alone go 
anywhere near the program 

665
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,880
because I just knew how tough a 
race it was. 

666
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,760
What it you know, what you 
needed to take it and how, you 

667
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,640
know, physically broken. 
I was post Kate Wrath. 

668
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,040
Yeah, good friend Stu Smith 
talked me around to it. 

669
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,680
And I was just like, come on, 
you can do it. 

670
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:22,280
So yeah, kind of put my big boy 
pants on, which were brown, 

671
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,240
thankfully, which was useful in 
those situations, especially on 

672
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:31,320
Cribcock. 
And yeah, that's just blown away

673
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,480
by it. 
It is such a such an iconic 

674
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,160
race, but it's so damn hard as 
well. 

675
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,520
Really is. 
The year you were talking about 

676
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,560
the Highland Fling, it was 2016,
and just looking at the results,

677
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,600
that was an absolutely stacked 
field. 

678
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:57,480
You had Lizzie Wraith, Neil 
Mcnichol, Elizabeth Pascal, Jazz

679
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,760
Bragg, Owen Lennon, Robbie 
Britton, Kim Carlson, Damon Hall

680
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,640
and Donnie Campbell won it. 
So it's like the who's who of 

681
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:10,160
Ultra running at that time. 
It it was because it was also, I

682
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,080
think it was a British giant. 
It was also a selection race for

683
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,880
the world trial champs and, and,
and, and this is where Damian 

684
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,040
Hall's book is, is incorrect. 
So if you've read Damian Hall's 

685
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,600
book, he he claims that his 
coach at the time. 

686
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,720
So ladies and gentlemen, I was 
Damian Hall's first coach, as 

687
00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:35,120
you mentioned his book. 
We then met kind of just 

688
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,480
particularly for tea or for 
dinner before the race. 

689
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,560
And he kind of, yeah, Ian 
Shalman apps his coach after me.

690
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,080
And he's claimed in this book, 
Ian Shalman told him this, But 

691
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,000
it was me. 
I said to him, right, this is 

692
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,280
how the race is going to unfold.
This is who's going to go up at 

693
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,280
the front. 
This is the pace it's going to 

694
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,240
go at. 
Venus is who you need to sit 

695
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:02,720
back and watch, bide your time 
and you'll pull through. 

696
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:09,000
Lo and behold, yeah, Damian came
through behind Dolly, overtook 

697
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:15,000
him and Robbie Britton. 
And I think like most people 

698
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,320
blew up here. 
And then, you know, they all 

699
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,320
kind of just completely 
capitulated because it just went

700
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:26,840
off like a 10K race. 
And yeah, I know it's runnable 

701
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,440
all the way to the bottom of 
Connick Hill, but still, 56 

702
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,520
miles, is it, or 54 miles, 53, 
53? 

703
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,160
Oh, here we go. close enough. 
Yeah. 

704
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,840
So yeah, it's not a race. 
You can start off too quick. 

705
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,480
So yeah, I have talked to him 
and he put it wrong. 

706
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,880
I think you just need to drop 
your name, drop Ian Sharman in 

707
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,240
his book as a coach. 
So. 

708
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,240
They get a break on lock side 
when they slow down. 

709
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,320
But but the problem with that 
race is you. 

710
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,760
You can't bail anywhere until 
you get to Balmer Harris. 

711
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,480
Even I discovered two years ago 
I'm just going to have to keep 

712
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,400
trudging along now. 
And so you get given some 

713
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,400
paracetamol by a very kind 
Marshall. 

714
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,480
Right. 
You said that Dragon's back is 

715
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,840
probably a race that sticks out,
but is there a moment within a 

716
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,160
race, it might even be that one 
that sort of sticks in the 

717
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,960
memory that this is? 
What does it mean to you? 

718
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,400
What being in that race or well.
Running a a certain point in a 

719
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:40,800
race that has a a, it might have
been a point where you overtook 

720
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,120
somebody, it might have been 
somebody's gesture at the 

721
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,760
checkpoint. 
It's just something that sticks 

722
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,840
in the memory for you. 
I mean, there's one which is 

723
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,680
really ingrained and and I kind 
of feel like we're talking all 

724
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,880
about Kate Wrath and and 
Dragon's back. 

725
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,760
But there. 
Well, that is interesting. 

726
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,000
As I, as I reflect on that, 
there's this. 

727
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,640
So I remember we were winning my
first cross country race back in

728
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,080
98 and that was kind of a kind 
of quite a monumental moment. 

729
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:19,480
But I vividly remember back in 
2016 on day three of hate breath

730
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,400
and we were fortunate with the 
web and the views we had. 

731
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,640
But you, you you've gone down 
past a big waterfall and I can't

732
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,680
remember the names of the Glens 
you're in, but you're coming up 

733
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:36,760
to this be like and you and you 
just look down and and all you 

734
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:41,240
saw was just a Highlands. 
That's all you saw. 

735
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:46,880
There was there was a wee boss, 
the ride a distance, but it was 

736
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:53,560
just expanse ahead. 
And I was just like, yeah, This 

737
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,600
is why I'm here for this kind of
scenery, for this this 

738
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:03,480
connection, for just just being 
privileged enough to be in this 

739
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:09,680
place and at this time. 
And, you know, I say it to so 

740
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,520
many athletes and and other 
competitors in races. 

741
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,400
It's really important now and 
again, you don't have to 

742
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:23,760
literally stop, but just really 
look up, look around you, really

743
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:29,640
kind of take in kind of 1 where 
you are and then kind of reflect

744
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,280
on, you know, how fortunate you 
are to be in that place. 

745
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,200
Even if you're maybe feeling a 
bit rough, food's not going down

746
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,400
so well, your legs a bit sore, 
your horrible blister. 

747
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,640
But you know, we have. 
So, you know, we are so 

748
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,080
fortunate at times to be in 
those races and sometimes be in 

749
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,080
those places. 
And yeah, seeing sunrises in a 

750
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,080
race. 
Oh, sunsets just get priceless. 

751
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,520
It's got to make you feel 
better. 

752
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,520
How could you not getting a 
sunrise in the Highlands as 

753
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,080
opposed to on Buchanan St. in 
Glasgow? 

754
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,680
That has a beauty of its own. 
Absolutely. 

755
00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:13,480
There's a whole different 
aesthetic, isn't it really? 

756
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,040
It's yeah, it depends on the on 
the second. 

757
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:23,280
But yeah, you know, and there 
are, there are so many other 

758
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,880
ones which are just poignant. 
And I think that's, it's a 

759
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,360
really good kind of good 
question as well, Mike, because 

760
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,480
I think we all should be, you 
know, taking time to reflect 

761
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,960
post race and to record. 
I have, you know, I do a lot of 

762
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,680
journaling. 
So I kind of record stuff, write

763
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,120
stuff down, and then saying 
we've kind of like why strata 

764
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,880
can be really good because we 
can write these little moments 

765
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:51,200
down and they're really useful 
then for us to reflect back. 

766
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,960
And when maybe things aren't 
going sort of like training or, 

767
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,360
you know, preparation for races 
and quite going, we can use that

768
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,400
as a bit of an anchor to go, OK,
you know, why am I doing this? 

769
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,760
Why do I want to go be back into
that environment? 

770
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,840
And they can just, yeah, just be
this confidence basis for us. 

771
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,440
What? 
What do you think you get out of

772
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,600
journalling? 
Is it for coaching purposes? 

773
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:22,040
Is it for life in general? 
I don't. 

774
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:23,240
So what? 
What is it that? 

775
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:31,640
So I, I, Yeah, so I journal for 
my mental health and for a 

776
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:37,240
former addiction. 
So my, my therapist host Kate 

777
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:40,280
Brath got me on to, to 
journalling. 

778
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:48,680
So I don't talk enough about it.
So as as somebody who probably 

779
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,520
seems like they've got life 
sorted because they're doing 

780
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,880
lots of great running and 
achieving lots and having a 

781
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,480
Great Britain vest and being a 
sponsored athlete up until 

782
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:03,480
around about kind of 2016 and 
17, my life, my personal life 

783
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,520
was ruled very much by porn 
addiction. 

784
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,920
So I was very much kind of held 
in that. 

785
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,120
I always had a bit of an 
addictive personality. 

786
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:16,520
I had drug addiction when I was 
late teens and then that kind of

787
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,400
morphed into porn addiction and 
it's really unhealthy. 

788
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:25,000
You know, it was definitely kind
of stopped me achieving things 

789
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:30,600
in my, my work life and social 
life, which is weird that, you 

790
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,400
know, I could run, I could win 
Kate Wrath. 

791
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:38,000
But then I just had this dark 
sneaker, this burden I was 

792
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,960
carrying and I couldn't, 
couldn't unpack, couldn't cope, 

793
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,320
you know, could not get myself 
out from that place. 

794
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:51,520
So I found a brilliant therapist
who specialized and that 

795
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,000
addiction and that helped me 
unpack it all, helped me get to 

796
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,360
the kind of root cause of it. 
But part of that process was 

797
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:05,080
journaling, you know, every day 
sitting down, writing my 

798
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,160
thoughts down. 
And it just became a kind of a 

799
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:14,160
natural habit. 
And so for me, journaling is 

800
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,920
it's an opportunity to be 
reflective. 

801
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,920
It's an opportunity sometimes to
right. 

802
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,640
I've what I've been thinking 
about in a negative way or 

803
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,320
positive ways during the day. 
And one of the other key things 

804
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,960
that I'm encouraging people to 
journal is this wants to be non 

805
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,480
critical as well. 
So you're not you're not judging

806
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:37,200
yourself of if you've done 
anything, you know, which you're

807
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,800
maybe not happy about or you 
know, you sometimes should write

808
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,160
it down and increase it out. 
So yeah. 

809
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,560
And that leads itself into, you 
know, training Diaries as well 

810
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:51,440
because you start journaling 
about your training, how train's

811
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,920
been going and if you actually 
do this, Nikki. 

812
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,840
But I really encourage all my 
athletes to to leave subjective 

813
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,120
feedback in their training 
because it's such an important 

814
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,680
element. 
It's easy to look at data and 

815
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:10,280
try and interpret data, but that
doesn't always give us the full 

816
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,600
story of what that athletes 
experienced and what we 

817
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:18,760
experienced on a run. 
But yeah, if you, I mean, you're

818
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,480
journaling can sometimes feel a 
bit of a chore, but once you get

819
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,800
into the habit of doing it 10 
minutes and then it's like 

820
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:30,320
mindfulness, like meditation, 
when you're not doing it, start 

821
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,040
missing it. 
A good question. 

822
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:34,800
Yeah. 
And so I hope and sorry for 

823
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,080
sharing that over that term. 
I know, I think, you know, so 

824
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,960
many men, you know, men need to 
be more, you know, a lot of men,

825
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,920
young people. 
You know, as I talk more about 

826
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:49,720
it, I find it, yeah, fascinating
how more people start standing 

827
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,320
up and going, Yeah, I suffer, 
experience a problem as well. 

828
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,640
And, you know, we know how young
people are so engaged but not 

829
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:01,880
engaged but come into contact 
with pornographic images, social

830
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,200
media, phones. 
It's so easy to connect to it. 

831
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:12,320
And I think the more we talk 
about it and kind of normalize 

832
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,040
that it's good to talk about it 
and positive to help people 

833
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,480
overcome those addictions and 
struggles. 

834
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,920
I I've written down write down 
notes as we go along and the 

835
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,680
next one is to say thank you for
being so open about it. 

836
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:30,600
If it helps somebody, great. 
If it helps you, even better 

837
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:40,240
question was do you think that 
you've replaced that addiction 

838
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:48,120
with an addiction for running? 
So initially, yes, 100%, 

839
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:53,400
absolutely. 
And, and I, I joke about it now 

840
00:53:53,880 --> 00:54:00,240
in that running was, and like I 
talked about this, this one, it 

841
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:03,480
was like running is running away
from that problem. 

842
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,840
You know, it's well, if I, if I,
if I run, it kind of numbs that 

843
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:14,400
area or distracts me. 
But as we all know about runs, 

844
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:20,120
if you kind of head up from your
house to go for run, you tend to

845
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,000
always end back at your house. 
You always end up back at the 

846
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,520
same point, don't you? 
And however many times you keep 

847
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,120
running, you're always going to 
come back to that, that same 

848
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:31,680
point. 
So absolutely. 

849
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,320
Yeah. 
I was well and truly addicted to

850
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,000
running. 
And again, this is a way of 

851
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,440
transformation happened in that 
2016 seventeen in that. 

852
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,680
And This is why when I you know,
when you ask how yeah, I knew I 

853
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:52,280
was a runner and I see myself 
less as a as a runner and more 

854
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,200
as me. 
It's less of an identity. 

855
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:56,720
And I think that's what we have 
to be careful. 

856
00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:01,280
We can get ourselves caught up 
in identities and we tie so much

857
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:02,720
up into my identity, which I had
done. 

858
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:06,880
And when we can't then run, how 
do we then fill that that gap? 

859
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,920
So, yeah, absolutely. 
You know, and I I know so many 

860
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:17,280
other runners who treat their 
running as as therapy, which is 

861
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:22,160
what I did. 
As I say now to people and to 

862
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,120
athletes and to when I'm, you 
know, given this wonderful 

863
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,920
opportunity to share my story or
to do talks. 

864
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:33,440
Not at all like Damien Hall, 
unfortunately, not yet, not yet.

865
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:40,640
I'm too too busy with my PHDI 
haven't got time to go trudging 

866
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:47,520
around the UK, but but I hope I 
didn't come across a few 

867
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:56,320
jealous. 
Yeah, Damien Marcus has got, we 

868
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,600
have been David a good friend. 
So for a long time we've taken 

869
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,000
quite a bit out of each other. 
But I think the the the big 

870
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,000
switch what I had for me was 
recognizing running, running as 

871
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,160
being therapeutic rather than 
therapy. 

872
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,120
I think that's a really 
important distinction. 

873
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,040
It's great questions. 
You might have been asking me 

874
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,800
this question shortly. 
So I do apologize for pre 

875
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,160
empting it, but you asked the 
question, why, why do I run? 

876
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:32,080
And it's a, it's a question I 
ask every kind of new athlete 

877
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,080
who comes to work with me when 
we have the discovery. 

878
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,440
Cause it's the first question I 
put to them. 

879
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:43,840
And, and, and I, I love their, 
that initial response to them 

880
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,800
being asked that, that question.
Because I think as, as athletes,

881
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:51,120
we don't always reflect on that,
you know, we just, we just run. 

882
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:52,920
I just, I don't know, I like 
racing. 

883
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,520
I like these events, but when we
really maybe sit and hold that 

884
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:02,840
space and go, why do I run and 
try and articulate it, It gives 

885
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,920
it more more context that helps 
us to maybe go a little bit 

886
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,040
deeper and understand that. 
And one of the reasons why I 

887
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:15,440
asked that question and to my 
athletes is, you know, I want to

888
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,720
get an understanding of that 
place they're coming from and is

889
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,600
it from something that they want
to be doing. 

890
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,720
There's no external pressures if
we're not chasing certain 

891
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:30,760
recognition or some sort of 
external reward, that's not for 

892
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,480
external motivation. 
And I would say now 100% of the 

893
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:41,040
athletes who I asked that 
question to or in some sort of 

894
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:45,560
way verbalise that they're doing
it for their mental health. 

895
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:53,040
And it's just kind of brilliant 
that opportunity to kind of deal

896
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:57,560
with different stresses, kind of
be able to process stuff. 

897
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,040
And I think that, you know, 
that's what is such an 

898
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:06,360
important, amazing opportunity 
of to be able to exercise and 

899
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,000
improve our mental health. 
And that's why we have to see it

900
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:16,480
as being therapeutic rather than
therapy because it can't replace

901
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,600
actually spending time with 
somebody who's more qualified if

902
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,640
we've got certain things we need
to unpack or certain issues 

903
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,200
going on in our life or, you 
know, mental health maybe isn't 

904
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,520
in a good place. 
So it's it's really, you know, 

905
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:38,160
important to kind of, yeah, 
recognise, OK, this is maybe 

906
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,640
tilting to one side, which could
be unhealthy. 

907
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:44,680
If it all falls apart, what's my
backup plan or what I got to 

908
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:50,440
fill that space? 
Right. 

909
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:58,720
And one addiction, good 
addiction was running, which 

910
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:05,080
benefits as, as we said, part of
that addiction is food. 

911
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:09,080
A lot of people say they run so 
that they can eat. 

912
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,280
Like the Segway? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

913
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,160
Is that true? 
Is that but you can't run if you

914
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:22,520
don't eat? 
What are you what? 

915
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,680
What is your fuelling strategy 
for races? 

916
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:30,600
Are you addicted to food? 
What is your what addiction have

917
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,040
you got? 
What is it? 

918
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,960
Mine's is ice cream. 
I love ice cream. 

919
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,920
Let the lettuce on the table I'm
liking. 

920
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,760
I'm like I'm liking the honesty 
here. 

921
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,880
Any flavour ice cream? 
I've got an ice cream maker and 

922
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,640
I I enjoy making ice cream as 
well. 

923
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,360
Pistachio is probably my my one 
of choice. 

924
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:55,800
Kind of very middle class. 
Well, when you're making it 

925
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,240
yourself, I I got the machine, 
the the maker as a birthday 

926
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,480
present, so. 
Pistachio, isn't it? 

927
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,240
So do you have to bite, you 
know, grind those pistachios up?

928
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,480
And is it a whole kind of 
process so it becomes like 

929
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,480
making bread? 
Is it this kind of wonderful 

930
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,600
laboursome process? 
Yeah, so it's kind of 

931
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,040
mindfulness linked into it as 
well. 

932
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:17,920
Could be. 
Yeah. 

933
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,720
Wonderful. 
Nikki, do you do you have a 

934
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,480
anything you wish to share? 
Food addiction or I think. 

935
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,720
At the moment, Mark is my 
addiction stress. 

936
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:37,160
I just try a bit running. 
I I sometimes check when people 

937
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:41,320
go like when you're you're doing
the the big training volume, 

938
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,760
which I've done in the past, but
I think like, you know, Dragons 

939
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,280
back, take a breath over 100 KS.
But you really then can just be 

940
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:50,960
like a dustbin and be like, are 
you on there some sort of 

941
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,600
special diet? 
You're sort of thinking, yeah, 

942
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:58,640
I'm on a I'm on a seafood diet, 
seafood and I eat it. 

943
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:08,000
Terrible dad joke. 
I know, sorry, but but yeah, I'm

944
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,040
which again, was really weird 
when I had, I've had certain key

945
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,480
addictions when I say key, but 
prominent addictions in my life,

946
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,720
drugs or porn that's never kind 
of gone into other areas like 

947
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:25,600
smoking, drinking food. 
I mean, I love food absolutely. 

948
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,760
And I love cooking. 
And yeah, I think running does 

949
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:32,960
help me keep in good shape. 
I am quite fortunate that I 

950
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:34,840
don't put a lot of weight on 
even when I'm not running. 

951
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:42,480
But it is really important to 
recognise that if you don't feel

952
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:46,640
successfully, that will impact 
your training as well as racing.

953
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:53,680
And as a coach, I'm really 
mindful how I approach that for 

954
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:58,360
some athletes because, yeah, 
diet and nutrition can have a 

955
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:04,560
lot of kind of connotations or 
you can be quite triggering for 

956
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,200
some people. 
And some people are willing to 

957
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,920
lose weight. 
And then if you're saying, you 

958
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,440
know, you've got to make sure 
you're eating lots, then that 

959
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:14,240
kind of feels going kind of 
productive. 

960
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,400
But then if you're not eating 
enough, you can end up with 

961
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:22,400
things like Reds relative energy
deficiency impacting hormones 

962
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:28,000
production and stress fractures,
which I have seen in a couple of

963
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,640
athletes more when I've started 
working with me. 

964
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:37,520
And there's not always been the 
transparency early on, but it's,

965
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,640
it's making what I would say 
common sense choices around 

966
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,920
food. 
If you're training hard, and 

967
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,000
this is where all training 
should also have a degree of 

968
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:50,080
periodisation, you shouldn't be 
doing the same training volume 

969
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,360
week in, week out, month after 
month, year after year. 

970
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:56,960
You want these peaks and troughs
of your training volume going up

971
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,800
and down the intensity. 
And that kind of means your, 

972
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:04,880
your nutrition kind of changes 
as well. 

973
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,720
And then, you know, just like 
you said, like, you know, you've

974
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,720
got to have your rewards as 
well. 

975
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,480
You know, you've got if you're 
doing lots of training and ice 

976
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,600
cream is what's going to pick 
you up and make you feel good, 

977
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,120
then get that pistachio ice 
cream in. 

978
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:28,880
But yeah, it's it's making sure 
like in, you know, again, 

979
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,720
talking about kind of diet 
choices, I don't think there's 

980
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:38,520
one complete correct diet other 
than real food. 

981
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:44,520
You know, that is the most 
important element, you know, not

982
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,440
having process or minimal amount
of processed foods. 

983
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:53,600
And if you want to be carnivore,
herbivore, plant based, you 

984
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,800
know, if you are choosing a 
certain kind of diet, just 

985
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,040
continue off for real food. 
Avoid the process because that's

986
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:05,400
where all the chemicals and 
rubbish fats are and that's what

987
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:07,280
puts the weight on. 
And I'm not an efficientness, 

988
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:12,160
but that's come from years of 
reading up on stuff and working 

989
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:13,440
with loads of different 
athletes. 

990
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:17,800
I just thought of a flavour that
beats Cesario. 

991
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,120
And. 
That is dark chocolate and 

992
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:22,720
chili. 
You had me on the dark 

993
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:24,600
chocolate. 
You had me on the dark 

994
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:25,920
chocolate. 
But you have to. 

995
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,960
Try it. 
You look like it's going to say 

996
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,000
something very profound, Nikki. 
And we have Ice Cream Chat. 

997
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:40,400
Yeah, if you could do a whole 
episode of Ice Cream Chat if 

998
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:41,320
we're laying. 
Absolutely. 

999
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,800
Really kind of like, I'm not a 
big fan of ice cream. 

1000
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:45,760
I've ever. 
Like I've said it, I've said it.

1001
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,000
I know, I know. 
I can take it or leave it as 

1002
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,680
well, Marcus. 
Cake is one of my weaknesses. 

1003
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:56,640
I love cake. 
I agree with you wholeheartedly 

1004
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,080
on that one. 
A cake is far better than ice 

1005
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:01,960
cream. 
And and even better, so when 

1006
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:04,840
mine and my husband's birthdays 
are within the same week, it's 

1007
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:11,040
just that it's the best week. 
Again, this is where rewards are

1008
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,480
so important, you know, just if 
you don't always need like it's 

1009
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,840
a birthday excuse, just come 
treat yourself some cake. 

1010
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:19,400
If you don't, don't. 
Tell me. 

1011
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:24,680
Some you know, you've got to 
have your cake now and again. 

1012
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:25,920
You've got to have those 
rewards. 

1013
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:30,680
The the profound question I was 
about to ask you before the ice 

1014
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:35,280
cream chart was when you're 
giving your advice on diet to 

1015
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,440
athletes. 
We all know as runners, the diet

1016
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:44,240
is an absolute minefield and it 
is not the same for any single 

1017
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:46,160
individual. 
You know, we're all totally 

1018
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:49,800
different fuel and strategies, 
you know, out with the running. 

1019
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,400
Have we got any resources or 
anywhere that you can give 

1020
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:59,120
people point us for where they 
could start to look when if they

1021
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:00,520
want to bear or they'll die? 
Yeah. 

1022
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:09,360
So I tend to point them in 
direction of people who are far 

1023
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:15,000
more qualified, people like 
Renee McGregor, Paul Booth, you 

1024
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:17,000
know, they're the two. 
And I've been really fortunate 

1025
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,200
to work with Paul Booth in the 
past as well for a 24 hour race 

1026
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:25,160
and and Renee McGregor's got 
some great books out there and 

1027
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:29,720
some online tools as well. 
And so they're really good 

1028
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:31,400
starting points. 
And if you are then going to go 

1029
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,640
off and do look for zero kind of
somebody professional to help 

1030
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:40,120
you, you know, like any kind of 
especially if you're going to a 

1031
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,040
physio or sports therapist, you 
know, make sure they have an 

1032
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:48,280
understanding of running of of 
the sport you do. 

1033
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:52,320
Because if you go and see a 
nutritionist who specializes in 

1034
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:56,560
football or golf, yes, they'll 
still understand the energy 

1035
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,560
system is still the same, but 
there's certain nuances that 

1036
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:02,800
come with the mindsets of of 
running compared to different 

1037
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,840
sports. 
So I think my advice was, you 

1038
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,720
know, there are some really 
other good sports nutritionists 

1039
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:14,480
out there, but Renee McGregor, 
her books are really good. 

1040
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,880
Training the athletes got is a 
really good book as well to kind

1041
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:25,280
of tap into. 
Just be careful what you take as

1042
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:30,800
evidence based on social media 
because there's some real 

1043
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:37,480
charlatans out there and you'll 
study snake oil when it's not 

1044
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:40,360
the best, best advice. 
So and then, you know, if you're

1045
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:45,200
really curious, go on Google 
Scholar and put it into Google 

1046
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,440
Scholar and see what what comes 
up. 

1047
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,560
And yeah, AI models now are 
really good. 

1048
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,200
And you, you know, if you're 
struggling to understand 

1049
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,800
research papers, most of them 
would like we use Copilot and 

1050
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:04,040
you can wrap key points and then
ask around as well Chats people.

1051
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:06,680
If I take snake oil, will it 
make me run faster? 

1052
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,400
Absolutely. 
I can send some later if you 

1053
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:13,360
want. 
I'll send you my bank details if

1054
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:17,520
you can pay me up and I'll send 
you a bottle instead. 

1055
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:22,439
Just pistachio flavour but as 
well if you want and. 

1056
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:27,600
A question that the IT can 
either be entertaining or really

1057
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:32,200
know what's the biggest fuelling
mistake that you've made and and

1058
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:36,760
watch what type of race has it 
usually happened and if you've 

1059
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:38,359
made that mistake more than 
once. 

1060
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:43,200
Thankfully I've only made it 
once, so it was in my first GB 

1061
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:49,640
vest running in the world 100K 
champs in Gibraltar 2010 I think

1062
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,640
it was. 
And a bit of context to it, I 

1063
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:55,760
was living in Dumfries at the 
time. 

1064
01:08:56,279 --> 01:09:00,800
It was end of November and the 
race was in Gibraltar. 

1065
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:04,399
So I was going from like 8 
degrees, 10° in southwest 

1066
01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:09,080
Scotland to 24° in Gibraltar. 
And I've worked really well on 

1067
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:11,319
my my nutrition. 
I worked quite a bit with my 

1068
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:15,399
coach on it and then really kind
of upped my calories. 

1069
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:18,240
And at the time we was focusing 
more on calories and carbs, what

1070
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,600
we do now. 
But we'd spent, yeah, quite a 

1071
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,880
bit of time coming up with quite
a detailed plan. 

1072
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:31,040
However, I sabotaged this plan 
in that thinking a few days out 

1073
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:33,040
and when we got out of your 
devotion and like, oh, this is 

1074
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,000
really hard. 
That was going to increase the 

1075
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:38,120
amount of electrolytes I was 
going to take on board thinking 

1076
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:42,120
I didn't want to cramp, not 
realising that there's still a 

1077
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:44,680
lot of sugar in a lot of 
electrolyte drinks. 

1078
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:52,840
And I was kind of sipping away 
quite merrily to about 5560 K 

1079
01:09:53,279 --> 01:09:57,920
when I remember taking on this 
gel and my stomach just churned 

1080
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,880
massively. 
And then I just projectile 

1081
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:07,760
vomited into a drain. 
It was just like, it was like 

1082
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:11,280
suddenly out of the film. 
It was like they put special 

1083
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:15,040
effects by the side of me. 
It was just like, and after I 

1084
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:19,320
finished it more, I must have 
like brought up 4 litres of 

1085
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:23,640
fluid. 
It was just yeah, and and 

1086
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:28,160
thankfully that was one of the 
ever GB last and she ran past 

1087
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:29,920
me. 
So she saw me and she was like, 

1088
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:30,640
yeah, I'm fine. 
What? 

1089
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:35,520
Not enough? 
And and yeah, yeah. 

1090
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:40,120
And my race then just unravelled
and I remember then stumbling 

1091
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,040
out the toilet a bit later and 
ended up in the back of an 

1092
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:47,440
ambulance. 
So yeah, that was the end of my 

1093
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:54,080
first ever GB race, which wasn't
how I expected it to go, but 

1094
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,880
yeah, it was a big lesson 
learned. 

1095
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:03,720
Don't mess about or change your 
nutrition a few days before a 

1096
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,120
race. 
I was about to ask did you 

1097
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:09,400
recover from that and you were 
able to complete the race but 

1098
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:11,040
obviously not if you were in an 
ambulance. 

1099
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:15,200
Nope. 
Yeah, pretty much what Yeah, 

1100
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:18,880
race had completely gone out to 
me in more ways than others. 

1101
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:25,960
Yeah, but but what is 
interesting now is the 

1102
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:28,840
understanding of the importance 
of of fuelling in races. 

1103
01:11:30,440 --> 01:11:37,440
You know, it's completely 
transformed and yeah, 2014 where

1104
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:43,040
ask a younger drop kind of did 
some of the first Seminole 

1105
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:46,520
research on there and one of the
if you want to really get your 

1106
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:51,080
head around some of the kind of 
fuelling systems and best ways 

1107
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,880
of fuelling his website. 
So might be worth stickiness in 

1108
01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:00,760
the the notes, but my sports 
science.com, his his website, 

1109
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:06,720
it's brilliant because it's all 
evidence informed and it's also 

1110
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,760
presented in a way that most 
people can get their head round 

1111
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:14,840
and understand. 
But he was one of the first kind

1112
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,920
of nutritionists to start 
pushing, you know, to recognise 

1113
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,960
that after three hours of 
exercise, that's when we need to

1114
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:25,760
increase our carb intake and 
start pushing 90 grams of carbs.

1115
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:33,480
Do you find that you've 
obviously know about all the new

1116
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:38,400
science actual facts, but you've
been running for a long time 

1117
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:44,080
like myself and I sort of go, 
I've been doing this for 1020 

1118
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:46,280
years and this is what I've 
always done. 

1119
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:50,000
So why change it now? 
So you're you're saying don't 

1120
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:54,800
change your nutrition on the 
day, but why change it at all if

1121
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:57,720
it worked for you back then? 
Even though science says. 

1122
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:06,080
It, it didn't work back then. 
It, yeah, no, I, I, I, I thought

1123
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:11,360
it worked. 
But I, I look back and recognise

1124
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:17,080
when I had rough patches and I 
in races now in ultra marathons,

1125
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:22,280
as soon as it starts getting 
hot, as soon as I start feeling 

1126
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:28,200
like I'm struggling, I, I, I 
will take some food on board and

1127
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,560
that picks me up because I've 
learned now that is an indicator

1128
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:33,880
from my muscles saying they're 
running out of glycogen. 

1129
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:42,200
And I now consume 90 grams of 
carbs an hour in racing. 

1130
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:46,480
So I'm very open minded. 
I look back at some of the stuff

1131
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:50,400
I was doing years ago and just 
like, Oh my God, what was I 

1132
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:52,840
thinking? 
You know, part of that was the 

1133
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:55,040
science wasn't there. 
The research hadn't really come 

1134
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:58,360
about. 
But I do remember, like my coach

1135
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:02,000
really at the time, she was 
really pushing me to be taking 

1136
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:06,280
like 300 calories an hour 
because we was working more on 

1137
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:08,960
calories. 
And then the carbs came to the 

1138
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:13,800
more to the forefront. 
And as I was reading the 

1139
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:17,760
research, hearing other races 
starting to take it on board, 

1140
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:21,960
seeing how that was impacting 
their performances, and then 

1141
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:27,160
dabbling in it myself and then 
seeing the the improvement in my

1142
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:31,600
own performance, you know what 
happened Devil Highlands two 

1143
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:36,120
years ago, 8 breath last year 
was completely fuelled on 90 

1144
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:40,840
grams of carbs an hour. 
And I was like shoving my face 

1145
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,440
full of food. 
And I think that's why I was so 

1146
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:47,120
close to my course record. 
And I would have when I broke my

1147
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:51,000
course record a couple of days, 
but kind of previous times on 

1148
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:55,200
those days and I'm not sprained 
my ankle on day five. 

1149
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:58,360
I'm sure I would have 
potentially broken my growth 

1150
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,600
record. 
But I and I, but I think that's 

1151
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:04,840
the reason for that was training
was slightly different and 

1152
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:10,360
better this time, but fuelling 
was far more on point you. 

1153
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:15,680
Were back in 2012. 
I'm just looking at your DVUV 

1154
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,120
record 2009, you were winning 
races back then. 

1155
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,160
Do you think you would have been
faster? 

1156
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:27,760
Yeah, absolutely. 
Yeah, way, way quicker when we 

1157
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:33,160
did that 1st 2008 Devil of 
Highlands, there's Bragg beat me

1158
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:38,880
because he feel better and he he
also because he had a crew what 

1159
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:42,400
came out to where the last 
checkpoint is now at Lindoverna.

1160
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:49,160
It wasn't an official checkpoint
there and he caught me up after 

1161
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,920
King Lot, me even, and I had 
gone a bit too quick, but he had

1162
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:58,240
crew there, picked up more fuel 
and I was running on fumes from 

1163
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:02,640
kind of just before Llandudno 
and I just couldn't respond to 

1164
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,200
him. 
So yeah, no, absolutely. 

1165
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:07,160
I look back at some of those 
results, even 100K time and go, 

1166
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:09,080
yeah. 
And I think, you know, This is 

1167
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:15,160
why I think we're seeing some 
kind of improvement in kind of 

1168
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:20,440
record times 100K trout races. 
It's not just the carbon plates 

1169
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:22,320
shoes which do make a 
difference. 

1170
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:28,840
People are able to sustain their
effort and the science shows us 

1171
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:32,560
that as well. 
When they've done studies on 

1172
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:34,320
races. 
Fortunate majority of that 

1173
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:40,720
science is on men typical not 
much, not on women because it's 

1174
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:44,720
we've have found some female 
athletes it's different quantity

1175
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:48,360
of carbs required and 90 grams 
of carbs and again for some 

1176
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:53,440
athletes if the intense is not 
the same, you don't need 90 

1177
01:16:53,440 --> 01:16:55,680
grams of carbs. 
You can get away with 50 or 60 

1178
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,400
grams. 
You kind of have to work out OK,

1179
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:03,520
how much am I expending? 
What's my expenditure compared 

1180
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:05,880
to what? 
I didn't take an intake, but 

1181
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,600
yeah, so it's my record, so my 
time. 

1182
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:13,080
So what website was that? 
DDBU. 

1183
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:21,320
DDUV if you Google DUV it's a 
German website that takes all 

1184
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:23,640
the ultra results. 
Some of them are missing but 

1185
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:27,040
it's got majority. 
The problem they have now is 

1186
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:30,200
GDPR. 
Although GDPR is a fantastic 

1187
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:35,440
thing for protecting personal 
people's personal data for 

1188
01:17:35,440 --> 01:17:40,280
things like this, race directors
have to submit things race 

1189
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:45,040
results with identifiable 
information which breaks GDPR. 

1190
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:49,000
So this the theory behind this 
website is flawed now. 

1191
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:52,920
So in few years time that sort 
of thing might not exist 

1192
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:56,160
unfortunately. 
But I suppose if you've signed 

1193
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:58,560
like a waiver and if your 
results are going to get 

1194
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,160
published anyway online. 
Yeah. 

1195
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:05,840
But I, I know that there's one 
of my race results is not up on 

1196
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:10,280
there because the race won't 
submit it with being able to 

1197
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:12,360
identify me even though I've 
said that's me. 

1198
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,400
But that's the reason behind it.
Excellent. 

1199
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:19,600
I couldn't have it. 
I mean I've looked at power in 

1200
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:24,880
Temple and that's got my results
all the way back I think to 2006

1201
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:31,320
on there 5 road running days. 
Yeah, so brilliant. 

1202
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:36,680
And you said there that you 
coach male and female and 

1203
01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:39,880
nobody's doubting that there is 
a difference between male and 

1204
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:44,160
female athletes. 
You've obviously got history 

1205
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:48,480
that you can apply to your 
theories on male athletes. 

1206
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:54,840
How much of that do you apply or
where do you get this of 

1207
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:56,960
information? 
Is it from other runners? 

1208
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:01,480
About female runners? 
Yeah. 

1209
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:07,440
I mean, there are some kind of 
studies on that and I think it's

1210
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:12,800
we've all coaching it. 
It has to come down to it being 

1211
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:18,120
holistic and a lot of science as
well out there. 

1212
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:21,840
We have to be mindful when it 
talks about endurance running in

1213
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:24,240
the sports science or even in 
the athletics terms. 

1214
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,760
Endurance running is kind of 
three 5000 meters, you know, 

1215
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:30,960
unless a study says marathon 
running, you know, and there's 

1216
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:33,760
very few studies on on ultra 
math running in itself. 

1217
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:36,040
There are more coming out, which
is quite interesting now. 

1218
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:40,640
So it's discerning that. 
And then there is that anecdotal

1219
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:44,440
element of working with female 
athletes, having those 

1220
01:19:44,440 --> 01:19:50,320
conversations, really allowing 
it to be quite open and 

1221
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:55,280
reflective, but then also making
sure that it's holistic for the 

1222
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:57,120
athlete. 
Because sometimes what can work 

1223
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:00,360
for a male athlete and you go, 
well, it should work, doesn't 

1224
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:04,320
always work because everybody's 
context, it's different. 

1225
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,800
And you know, I think the key 
thing we have to be in mind for 

1226
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,240
was when working with a female 
athlete, the things like the 

1227
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:15,160
menstrual cycle, the hormonal 
cycle is so different, way, way 

1228
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:18,400
different to, to men. 
And even in menopause, 

1229
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:22,040
perimenopause, all, all that has
an impact. 

1230
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:25,720
So it's, it's not about being in
any way gatekeeper. 

1231
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:27,200
It's about. 
Acknowledged. 

1232
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:29,000
I've read this paper so I know 
about it. 

1233
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:32,040
Absolutely not. 
You know, as a coach, I view 

1234
01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:35,360
myself very much more as a 
somebody's journeying along them

1235
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,360
and bringing ideas, sometimes 
going, well, look, this kind of 

1236
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:43,280
says this is it going to work? 
And if the athlete turns around 

1237
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:46,080
and go no, this isn't this isn't
working. 

1238
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:49,720
OK, we're in. 
Well, let's try something new. 

1239
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,160
Let's alter it. 
Let's change it around so it 

1240
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:57,920
always has to be like dynamic, 
but definitely having the 

1241
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:02,040
confidence to sometimes say 
you're wrong or you know, I'm 

1242
01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:04,880
wrong, not the athlete is wrong 
because you know that that 

1243
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,360
subjective understanding is far 
greater than and why you know, I

1244
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:11,120
would never never in a million 
years. 

1245
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:14,720
And you can understand what it's
like once a month to be bleeding

1246
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,360
from a certain area of my body 
and how my hormones would go up 

1247
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:20,280
and down and how it would make 
me feel and bloated or, you 

1248
01:21:20,280 --> 01:21:23,840
know, I never have to go for a 
run with something stuck in my 

1249
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:26,280
pants. 
So I'm not bleeding everywhere. 

1250
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:30,000
You know, men, we have it so 
freaking easy. 

1251
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:31,840
Absolutely. 
So easy. 

1252
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:35,720
You know, one of my athletes was
doing one of the spying races. 

1253
01:21:36,480 --> 01:21:38,040
And if I listen, if I do 
apologise now. 

1254
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:40,920
But they started appearing on 
the Friday the day before. 

1255
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:45,320
And he just like, oh, that is so
unfair because straight away, 

1256
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:47,120
you know, that's going to impact
performance. 

1257
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:51,800
And as a male athlete, I just 
wouldn't. 

1258
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:56,080
Yeah, have no understanding of 
what that can be like at all. 

1259
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,120
So this is where, you know, 
coaching in a real holistic 

1260
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:06,200
endeavour. 
And yeah, you want to ideally 

1261
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:11,360
lean into science, but there are
other times where being more 

1262
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:16,840
anecdotal can be just as 
powerful and impertinent because

1263
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:20,040
it's personal centred space for 
that person. 

1264
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:24,720
I guess that's very good. 
Yeah, as you as. 

1265
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:30,400
You said that there when you're 
talking about your athlete, even

1266
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:35,080
just I've never done a multi day
event before, but even from 

1267
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:38,200
observing, watching the dwell 
time. 

1268
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:42,440
And if that happens, that 
particular time of the month, 

1269
01:22:42,440 --> 01:22:44,120
which you say is really 
unfortunate. 

1270
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:48,800
If you're a performance athlete 
that takes even like 5 minutes, 

1271
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:52,520
10 minutes to just sort yourself
out to make sure that you feel 

1272
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:56,360
better, that you feel fresher so
that you can get back out on the

1273
01:22:56,360 --> 01:23:00,840
course and get it done. 
It's it can be a pain in the 

1274
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:05,480
backside, but for anyone that is
listening, the you know, wants 

1275
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:08,720
to learn more about things like 
that and even for yourself. 

1276
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:13,680
Marcus as a coach, Karen Nickel 
does an awful lot of research, 

1277
01:23:14,360 --> 01:23:20,280
part of wild heart runners. 
She is phenomenal at giving 

1278
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,680
information. 
And when you ask her about, I 

1279
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:25,920
hope she doesn't mind me saying 
I'm sure she won't. 

1280
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:30,560
But if you were to ask Karen for
resources, she would happily 

1281
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:34,320
point you in the right direction
because as a man, there's only, 

1282
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,240
as you say, there's only so much
that you can understand. 

1283
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,880
You know, as you say, you don't 
go through it. 

1284
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:41,240
Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

1285
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:44,560
I mean, it's great now that, you
know, a lot of races are having 

1286
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:49,760
female designated toilets and 
then also having kind of 

1287
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:54,000
sandwich towels or tampons 
available during races because 

1288
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:57,600
you know, even we found in the 
Lakeland 100 or 50. 

1289
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,400
So an athletes cycle can start 
in the middle of the race. 

1290
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:04,240
And yeah, I think it's really 
important that race organisers 

1291
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:08,520
are prepared and ready for that.
It's it's, you know, it's a 

1292
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:12,840
shame it's taken us till 202425 
to start. 

1293
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:16,400
Recording, the awareness is 
there and I know Sophie Power 

1294
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:20,440
does a lot of work as well as 
she races a lot of campaigning 

1295
01:24:20,440 --> 01:24:23,600
for it and I feel that there's a
lot more awareness out there 

1296
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:28,280
which is great. 
Yeah, it is improving vastly, 

1297
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:32,360
isn't it? 
But you know, as a, as a, as a 

1298
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:37,200
coach, it's so it's so important
to to just have that. 

1299
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,320
And it's not that in any sort of
way patronizing. 

1300
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:47,400
It's that care and concern. 
I think you were saying about 

1301
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:51,040
journaling, if they're doing 
that on the coaching platform 

1302
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:56,400
that you use, being honest with 
you because you're they're 

1303
01:24:56,400 --> 01:25:00,880
paying you to be as the best 
coach that you can be. 

1304
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:03,560
But you can only do that if 
they're honest with you in 

1305
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:05,520
things like that that are 
happening to them. 

1306
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:10,840
Yeah, and absolutely. 
And some athletes, you know, 

1307
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:15,120
with things like the Garmin app,
you can put in when your cycle's

1308
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:18,360
due and that then comes into, 
into training peaks. 

1309
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:22,840
So I have that, that data there.
And we'll, yeah, we'll have that

1310
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:27,160
conversation regularly with with
athletes and, you know, making 

1311
01:25:27,160 --> 01:25:30,640
sure that we build the 
programme, the cycles around the

1312
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:34,560
menstrual cycle. 
But then it's what is becoming 

1313
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:38,600
more and more interesting is 
things like perimenopause and 

1314
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:40,560
menopause. 
Or, you know, you've got Stacey 

1315
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:45,600
Sims have written the book raw. 
It's still a lack of 

1316
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:51,360
understandable data out there of
what how you know, women need 

1317
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:54,040
support during that period and 
what exercises work or what 

1318
01:25:54,040 --> 01:25:58,320
doesn't work. 
And it's how many kind of 

1319
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:02,280
athletes experience it in 
different ways as well as no one

1320
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,960
like everybody experiences 
prenimals pre menopausal or 

1321
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:10,200
menopause in that way. 
That's and that's, I think, 

1322
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:13,440
yeah, we've really got to, yeah,
as you, you should say, might 

1323
01:26:13,440 --> 01:26:16,880
get to know that athlete and 
make sure there's there's a good

1324
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:22,680
relationship where you can have 
that openness and transparency 

1325
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:28,560
all the time. 
And totally changing the 

1326
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,880
subject. 
No big. 

1327
01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:32,800
Way there? 
No. 

1328
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:37,600
Pizza is my favorite savoury 
food. 

1329
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:42,240
Pizza is that, is that where was
that? 

1330
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:44,600
Is that where it was going? 
Yeah, that's. 

1331
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:48,840
That's exactly where we're going
when when you've fueled up on 

1332
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:55,760
your pizza but you're still 
sleep deprived and multi day 

1333
01:26:55,760 --> 01:26:58,800
races or a single day race 
that's gone over multi days. 

1334
01:26:59,440 --> 01:27:03,320
I've never done a multi day race
where the clock stops. 

1335
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,680
It's always been a continuous 
race, but they've been over 

1336
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:10,160
multiple days, sleep 
deprivation. 

1337
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,880
What's the worst thing that 
you've been there, hallucinated 

1338
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:15,960
or said to somebody while you've
been sleep deprived? 

1339
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:23,880
I've never really been sleep 
deprived in the race. 

1340
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:28,720
The longest race I've ever done 
is the spine challenger which 

1341
01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:36,840
was 29 hours and he has never, 
never sleep deprived. 

1342
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:42,080
It's really boring isn't it? 
You have not had any major. 

1343
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:49,680
I thought us hallucinating to 
apologise in advance of that 

1344
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:56,080
crazy story is but my first 100K
going back to go away and it was

1345
01:27:56,080 --> 01:28:02,280
coming down one of her laps. 
One of the other England female 

1346
01:28:02,280 --> 01:28:06,200
competitors, she was peeing 
standing up and I thought I was 

1347
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:10,280
hallucinating that initially, 
but I was like, that's an 

1348
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:14,480
amazing skill. 
But yeah, how boring is that? 

1349
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,760
Because I keep doing all these 
short races. 

1350
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:22,600
When you when you chat to Jen, 
Jen's got a letter of stories. 

1351
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:25,080
And when I've talked to 
athletes, so I've coached for 

1352
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:27,960
things like the Spy and Northern
Traverse and stuff like that, 

1353
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:32,720
and of hearing their stories of 
hallucinations, I'm kind of 

1354
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:36,880
like, I had that kind of back in
the early 90s when I used a lot 

1355
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,200
of acids. 
So maybe that's when it might, 

1356
01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:43,400
maybe my brains experience that 
through lucinogenic drugs. 

1357
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:45,960
And now it's all a bit like, 
yeah, it's isn't even touching 

1358
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:47,720
it now, doesn't get anywhere 
near it. 

1359
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:52,040
Can I just say, Marcus, if I 
managed 29 hours, I would be 

1360
01:28:52,040 --> 01:28:55,240
definitely hallucinating because
I'm shouted after three hours. 

1361
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,000
But. 
But this is the amazing thing. 

1362
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,840
It's a bit, and, and I don't 
know if you found this as well 

1363
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:06,160
back when you've done those 
longer events that the, and part

1364
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:08,680
of that is, is because of the 
chemicals the body is producing.

1365
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:13,280
Anyway, in these events that I, 
I never felt tired in 29 hours. 

1366
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:15,640
The amount of adrenaline, 
cortisol in my body. 

1367
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:19,560
You, you just, you know, when 
you even think back to like, you

1368
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:22,080
know, some of the alters, you've
probably done Nikki, you know, 

1369
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:24,160
you think about the, the fling 
and you're like, Oh yeah, I'm 

1370
01:29:24,160 --> 01:29:26,200
going to get to a point and I'm 
just going to be like dead on my

1371
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:29,120
feet. 
But really, because you're so 

1372
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:33,040
focused on what you're doing is 
so involved in that moment, you 

1373
01:29:33,040 --> 01:29:36,600
just keep moving forward. 
It's it was amazing. 

1374
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,360
And when I've, you know, yeah, 
when I stopped on the spine 

1375
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:42,320
challenge, absolutely, I was 
like dead man walking. 

1376
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:48,360
But at the time, I was so 
focused on trying to keep moving

1377
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:54,120
forward that, yeah, my brain 
obviously was just so much more 

1378
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:56,480
alert. 
And then if you found this same.

1379
01:29:56,480 --> 01:29:58,440
Have you had any good 
hallucinations yourself? 

1380
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:00,960
I've never hallucinated. 
I'm still chasing it. 

1381
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:06,560
So. 
But yeah, I I feel the same. 

1382
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:12,800
I think it's much easier to run 
for say 30-40 hours than it is 

1383
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:14,800
to sit on the sofa and do 
nothing. 

1384
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:18,680
You fall asleep within a couple 
hours, but if you're actually 

1385
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:25,000
moving then something chemical 
based in your body is you stay 

1386
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:30,160
awake. 
I've been running like the 

1387
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:35,280
original hill route. 
I remember running along and I 

1388
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:38,480
actually fell asleep while I was
still running and the only 

1389
01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:42,040
reason I knew I'd fallen asleep 
is because I I was there and now

1390
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:44,240
I'm here. 
Oh well, might as well keep 

1391
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:45,520
running then because I'm still 
awake. 

1392
01:30:46,440 --> 01:30:50,080
But in terms of hallucinations, 
never, never hallucinate. 

1393
01:30:51,480 --> 01:30:52,520
Yeah, I know. 
It's like. 

1394
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:55,600
At this point. 
Drug fueled past as well. 

1395
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:59,400
Do we need to have any, you 
know, same space there, you 

1396
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:02,200
know, but yeah, what about you? 
Have you had any legalize 

1397
01:31:02,200 --> 01:31:03,280
nations Nikki? 
Have you ever? 

1398
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,840
I've not ran long enough. 
The longest rates to have done 

1399
01:31:06,840 --> 01:31:10,760
Marcus is the one that you asked
me about the devil. 

1400
01:31:12,480 --> 01:31:15,520
But as you're saying about like 
just keeping on going and that 

1401
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:18,680
and you said with the spine 
challenger, you were dead on 

1402
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:21,320
your feet. 
When I finished the Devil, it 

1403
01:31:21,320 --> 01:31:24,360
wasn't so much dead on my feet. 
It was display if I'd finished 

1404
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:28,240
because I got to the top of the 
Devil staircase. 

1405
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:32,880
Doesn't live up to its name. 
Sorry to interrupt, but it does 

1406
01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:34,000
not live it. 
Walking. 

1407
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:37,400
Walking with some purpose 
because I knew I had to get to 

1408
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:41,040
the top. 
Cried at the top of that hill 

1409
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:43,600
saying to my husband. 
On the phone to my husband 

1410
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:46,360
saying I can't do another six 
hours of this shit. 

1411
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:50,440
This is horrible. 
God, I'd convinced myself I was 

1412
01:31:50,440 --> 01:31:53,440
getting to Ken Locke leaving and
I thought I'm I'm pulling out, 

1413
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:57,080
I'm just pulling out here 
because I I can't do it. 

1414
01:31:57,080 --> 01:31:59,600
And then the Marshalls tidy you 
up. 

1415
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:02,160
Don't they change your socks? 
And I'm like who? 

1416
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:05,960
Far to the next checkpoint and 
they says it's not that farm. 

1417
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:08,120
Like can I walk it? 
They went well, if you don't 

1418
01:32:08,440 --> 01:32:10,720
muck about, yeah, you'll get 
there. 

1419
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:14,760
So obviously carried on and then
got to Linda after. 

1420
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:18,360
I didn't get tamed out and just 
got to the end. 

1421
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:22,040
But no off, sadly, no 
hallucinations. 

1422
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:26,200
My feeling strategy was terrible
on that as well, Marcus, because

1423
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:28,800
actually I don't know how I got 
through that. 

1424
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:33,520
I didn't take a pee until after 
Linda after. 

1425
01:32:34,720 --> 01:32:37,840
And yeah, it was everything not 
to do. 

1426
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:42,280
But I mean, you got to, I mean, 
this could, you know, do it once

1427
01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:44,480
so, you know, like me and all my
natural lights. 

1428
01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:46,760
You'll need it once. 
Next time you'll feel far 

1429
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,960
better. 
Oh 100% and I've no graces, no 

1430
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:53,320
else in graces about peeing 
anywhere anymore because we're 

1431
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:56,560
all trail runners now. 
So it's when you're just in the 

1432
01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:59,040
street amongst normal people 
that you don't do it. 

1433
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:01,840
Majorities of training around 
Buchanan St. eh? 

1434
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:09,280
Well, I mean, some fucking 
hungry, but this interview is 

1435
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:11,880
not about us. 
It's about you, Marcus. 

1436
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:17,560
So what is the one piece of 
advice that you wish every 

1437
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:21,640
runner from front of field to 
back of field? 

1438
01:33:22,440 --> 01:33:25,160
What's the one piece of advice 
you wish every runner would 

1439
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:25,600
know? 
Thank. 

1440
01:33:28,240 --> 01:33:32,520
Goodness, mate, I mean that is 
like, I mean like an 

1441
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:37,200
encyclopedia in front of it and 
pick one, pick one piece out of 

1442
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:45,000
this and it kind of going for a 
bit of a politician's answer 

1443
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:46,800
isn't it's a really good 
question because I'm trying to 

1444
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,280
fumble fumble My my my wife. 
There is. 

1445
01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:51,120
I thought there was another bit 
on the original question you 

1446
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:53,880
sent through to me. 
Hey, this is sorry to to ruin 

1447
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:55,680
this video. 
This was there was some 

1448
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:58,560
questions sent out beforehand 
the original question. 

1449
01:33:58,560 --> 01:34:01,600
Was for multi day races. 
But I think if you want if you. 

1450
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:05,040
Want to choose a multi day race 
and advice for that? 

1451
01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:08,240
Then that is your prerogative, 
but. 

1452
01:34:09,720 --> 01:34:13,240
I, I think so, as I say to so 
many of my so we've alluded to a

1453
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:17,640
couple of them. 
So if we, if we rewind back one 

1454
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:21,040
bit would be that, that 
distinction between not letting 

1455
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:26,280
your ego, you know, override and
ruin your runs and let the body,

1456
01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:29,720
you know, recognize if you're 
working hard, you're working 

1457
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:31,520
hard. 
So we've talked on that one, but

1458
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:36,000
the other, the other key one is 
don't be afraid of rest. 

1459
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:44,640
Do not be afraid of taking time 
off because it is such an 

1460
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:48,080
invaluable key part of of 
training. 

1461
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:57,600
And without rest, you will never
be able to do the races or the 

1462
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:02,880
times you ever want to do. 
Because we think our training is

1463
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:07,040
where it all happens. 
But it's not that the magic 

1464
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:10,480
happens when we, we stop 
training and we allow the body 

1465
01:35:10,480 --> 01:35:13,480
to recover, repair and renew. 
All training is about overload. 

1466
01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:17,800
You know, we overload the body 
to a degree where hopefully it's

1467
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:20,320
not broken, but it's getting 
close to being overworked. 

1468
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:26,280
We back off and then amazingly, 
the cells come in and repair and

1469
01:35:26,280 --> 01:35:29,240
renew. 
We strengthen and it's kind of 

1470
01:35:29,240 --> 01:35:30,960
like, oh, we know we're going to
be worked harder again. 

1471
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:35,600
So we'll, we'll make more new 
cells or more new pillaries in 

1472
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:37,960
our muscles or improve our 
stroke heart volume. 

1473
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:41,800
But we have to make sure we take
that time out. 

1474
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:46,360
And I know as an athlete the 
reason why I'm still racing. 

1475
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:52,720
Yeah, 18 years after that first 
racing along the Devil Highlands

1476
01:35:52,720 --> 01:35:58,200
or even before then, you know, 
my, I set my half marathon PB in

1477
01:35:58,200 --> 01:36:03,360
2569 minutes and still able to 
run very reasonable. 

1478
01:36:03,360 --> 01:36:05,640
Half of it's because I'm not 
afraid to take time off. 

1479
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:10,360
Now you're really, really 
encouraging when I'm, when I'm 

1480
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:13,480
as a coach, when I'm building a 
training plan for an athlete, 

1481
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:19,080
the first thing, what goes into 
a training plan is the rest 

1482
01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:23,080
days. 
And and then I start building 

1483
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:28,240
our elements around it. 
And if, you know, the more we 

1484
01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:29,960
become comfortable with with 
being still. 

1485
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:32,080
And sometimes it comes back to 
like we was talking earlier 

1486
01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:35,680
about, you know, how we're using
running for therapy, that we're 

1487
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:40,360
running away from staff, that 
we're sometimes, you know, we 

1488
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:43,120
can't sit still. 
We can't sit with after thoughts

1489
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:46,280
or we feel guilty if we sit 
still, if we're not doing 

1490
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:50,160
something. 
But really it's so important to 

1491
01:36:50,160 --> 01:36:51,400
our body. 
And this is what makes a 

1492
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:53,000
difference between elite 
athletes. 

1493
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:56,160
And as we're speaking earlier, 
like to Jim Walsley, Tom Evans 

1494
01:36:56,160 --> 01:36:59,520
there, they're training and then
sat around all day doing nothing

1495
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:03,440
else, watching Netflix, reading 
books. 

1496
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:07,280
When you and me are off to work 
or, you know, got jobs and 

1497
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:09,560
families to be content. 
We're not sending Tom Evans. 

1498
01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:15,760
That's a wonderful family now. 
But yeah, don't be afraid of 

1499
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:20,680
rest detraining. 
It's just as important as as 

1500
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:23,040
training. 
And you know, if you follow me 

1501
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:26,800
on Strava, you'll see. 
And I post a little bit on 

1502
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:30,000
social media about it. 
That post Kate Rath, I took 

1503
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:32,760
nearly like 3. 
I took two to four, two weeks 

1504
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:38,520
off and then nearly three months
of easy running and just messing

1505
01:37:38,520 --> 01:37:42,800
about. 
So yeah, embrace rest. 

1506
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:46,280
See it as such an important part
of your training week because 

1507
01:37:46,280 --> 01:37:50,360
important is your long run. 
You're speed sessions, you're 

1508
01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:54,440
easy ones. 
I think there's a lot of theory 

1509
01:37:54,440 --> 01:37:59,680
that it's, it's the rest is when
you improve, that's when your 

1510
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:02,840
muscles are building, so. 
Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely. 

1511
01:38:02,920 --> 01:38:06,280
You know, you and and and it's 
same psychologically as well. 

1512
01:38:06,920 --> 01:38:09,480
You know, we don't build 
resilience when we're fatigued, 

1513
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:12,840
when we're tired. 
That's how we, you know, we 

1514
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:16,200
don't we, we build it when we 
are out of that moment and 

1515
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:18,600
reflecting how we overcame that 
moment. 

1516
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:22,680
So, you know, if you could say 
you have one more, it would be 

1517
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:24,760
tell runners that you don't need
to learn to suffer. 

1518
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:28,800
Nobody needs to learn to suffer.
No way. 

1519
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:32,800
You know, running should be fun.
There's enough suffering we 

1520
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:35,840
endure in life. 
Things will happen. 

1521
01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:39,080
Bad luck, certain situation, 
circumstances. 

1522
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,200
And yeah, I do not buy into this
fallacy there. 

1523
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:45,120
We need to learn to suffer, to 
run on from reference. 

1524
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:50,800
Oh, not to go. 
So yeah, rest, rest, rest, rest.

1525
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:53,320
And then you can always cream on
as well. 

1526
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:56,040
Yeah. 
I love that point about not 

1527
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:59,680
suffering Marcus. 
I had a good friend and former 

1528
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:03,920
guest on the podcast and what I 
was most inspired about from 

1529
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:10,680
Alice was she pulled out of a 
100 Miller race, 30 odd miles 

1530
01:39:11,000 --> 01:39:15,480
because the weather was terrible
and she chose not to suffer. 

1531
01:39:16,440 --> 01:39:18,240
She just wasn't having a good 
time. 

1532
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:23,400
And she says I, I, she knows all
like, you know, it's a privilege

1533
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,440
to suffer and you know, the 
courts like that, which, you 

1534
01:39:26,440 --> 01:39:30,000
know, do help some people. 
But for her, she says I chose 

1535
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:33,480
not to suffer that day. 
So that really inspired me. 

1536
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:36,680
Yeah. 
And that to me that also shows 

1537
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:43,440
such a high resilience as well. 
You know, I think it's shows 

1538
01:39:43,440 --> 01:39:47,960
more resilience to pull out of 
the race, to recognise that it's

1539
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:54,720
not a positive situation than to
legitimately push on to 

1540
01:39:54,720 --> 01:40:00,120
potentially put yourself in more
harm or come just more miserable

1541
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:02,720
situation. 
So. 

1542
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:06,400
Yeah. 
You know, there is this horrible

1543
01:40:06,400 --> 01:40:09,920
fallacy in the sport that, yeah,
it's about, it's about 

1544
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:11,320
suffering. 
It's hard. 

1545
01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:13,920
No question of that. 
Like you were just saying, 

1546
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:16,880
Nikki, about your experience. 
It is. 

1547
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:21,280
It is hard, but but that's 
because, you know, it's physical

1548
01:40:21,560 --> 01:40:24,560
and there's a real distinction 
from pain and suffering. 

1549
01:40:25,160 --> 01:40:29,520
You know, pain is the physical 
manifestation what's happening. 

1550
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:33,800
Suffering is is mental. 
It's a mental manifestation 

1551
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:37,160
what's happening. 
So we we choose if we're 

1552
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:40,760
suffering or not and we can 
reframe it. 

1553
01:40:40,760 --> 01:40:44,400
We can use other psychological 
tools to take us out of that 

1554
01:40:44,400 --> 01:40:46,640
situation. 
But we then need to be in 

1555
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:49,240
training and going well. 
I need to do a really horrible 

1556
01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:51,920
hard long run or back-to-back 
long runs to learn to suffer. 

1557
01:40:53,680 --> 01:41:01,680
No, don't do it. 
Please enjoy your running, have 

1558
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:04,960
fun. 
I feel you've got to learn to 

1559
01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:07,840
suffer because you'll just end 
up in a really horrible, 

1560
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:10,400
miserable place. 
And if you have runs which are 

1561
01:41:10,400 --> 01:41:13,480
unpleasant, all you're doing is 
taking yourself up. 

1562
01:41:13,480 --> 01:41:15,320
Running is unpleasant. 
Yeah. 

1563
01:41:17,080 --> 01:41:22,720
And you're running, you're not 
suffering, you're not not 

1564
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,040
dealing with that. 
But what are you thinking about?

1565
01:41:28,240 --> 01:41:34,640
What was what running in races 
are all the time or so the last 

1566
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:38,320
the last five runs I've been 
thinking about tonight. 

1567
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:44,800
Those questions you sent through
so training runs will either be 

1568
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:51,840
filled with writing assignments 
like how am I going to finish 

1569
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:54,960
this conclusion? 
Oh my God, this is like getting 

1570
01:41:54,960 --> 01:41:57,960
really annoyed about trying to 
write some. 

1571
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:03,520
Yeah, or an introduction or, or 
even sometimes I can be trying 

1572
01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:06,640
to take a paper apart as a 
chapter I cut or a passage I've 

1573
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:09,040
not got my head round and I'll 
just take it out on a run. 

1574
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:10,560
So there'll be a mixture of 
that. 

1575
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:15,360
Sometimes I'm thinking about 
some coaching aspect comes in, 

1576
01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:21,240
sometimes I'm visualising about 
race coming up, you know, the 

1577
01:42:21,240 --> 01:42:24,560
training I want to be doing. 
And then the other time it's 

1578
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:27,720
just filled with me being quite 
mindful of focusing on my 

1579
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:29,960
breathing, my movement and the 
scenery. 

1580
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:35,240
Just, you know, we've got 
Monroes on our doorsteps up 

1581
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:38,320
here, we've got 800 metres of 
mountains in our back garden. 

1582
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:43,360
And I just feel so privileged 
just to be running beneath such 

1583
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:47,720
grandeur just so often just 
looking at those. 

1584
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:51,000
I am just so fortunate, so 
grateful. 

1585
01:42:51,280 --> 01:42:57,560
So yeah, it's a real kind of 
mish mash. 

1586
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,240
But then if I'm doing sessions, 
then it's a different world 

1587
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:03,440
focus of what I'm doing in that 
session saying racing, you're 

1588
01:43:03,440 --> 01:43:05,480
racing. 
It becomes very singular minded,

1589
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:10,040
very focused. 
But yeah, yeah, it's really 

1590
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:12,520
interesting when I read it, when
I read your question, why not? 

1591
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:14,640
Oh my. 
Well, this is what I'm thinking 

1592
01:43:16,880 --> 01:43:20,520
about the next. 
Few months circular question 

1593
01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:22,280
answer. 
You are thinking about the 

1594
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:26,520
question that's just been asked.
Yeah, You know, I mean, I think 

1595
01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:29,640
it's like, well, how a lot of 
athletes describe it as well 

1596
01:43:29,640 --> 01:43:33,480
when asking why do they run? 
Is that opportunity to be 

1597
01:43:33,480 --> 01:43:35,600
disconnected? 
You have not got emails and not 

1598
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:38,160
got text messages. 
I don't run with any technology,

1599
01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:41,800
don't run with headphones, don't
listen to music. 

1600
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:45,640
I I just love hearing my own 
thoughts. 

1601
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:48,880
I just love it. 
I'm really, you know, it's such 

1602
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:54,320
a privileged time to have be on 
my own, to have no other 

1603
01:43:54,320 --> 01:43:59,880
distractions, but then to be 
kind of really mindful of that 

1604
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:03,480
environment around you because 
again, I think that's something 

1605
01:44:03,480 --> 01:44:05,960
really important. 
And I think, you know, again, a 

1606
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:09,720
lot of drones talk about that 
kind of always the theory and 

1607
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:14,680
experience of being in that 
environment and an equity with 

1608
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:16,680
that. 
And yeah, look at the trees, 

1609
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:19,640
look at the flowers, look at the
Moss on the words. 

1610
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:23,120
You run past it, you'll notice 
some of those small details of 

1611
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:27,000
what's around you. 
Because it might be that, you 

1612
01:44:27,040 --> 01:44:29,040
know, you've what you've the 
root you're doing so often you 

1613
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:31,120
suddenly see a tree you've not 
seen before, you suddenly 

1614
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:33,080
noticing other bits. 
And if you start noticing those 

1615
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:35,160
around you, you start noticing 
what's going on in certainly as 

1616
01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:39,680
well, how your breathing sounds,
how your footfall sounds, how 

1617
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:44,520
your movement is. 
So yeah, it's just a real 

1618
01:44:45,480 --> 01:44:47,680
privileged time, isn't it, to be
out there. 

1619
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:52,480
Have you always been like that, 
Marcus, with the no technology 

1620
01:44:52,480 --> 01:44:58,280
and no music or anything? 
With it on him, yeah, yeah, Oh 

1621
01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:01,040
yeah. 
I remember years ago. 

1622
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:06,160
So going back-to-back, kind of 
94 and 95, trying to do wrong 

1623
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:10,720
with headphones on, running 
along the canal in Leicester and

1624
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:14,200
hating it because I didn't sense
it was around me. 

1625
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:18,920
The the music was dictating my 
pace. 

1626
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:27,760
And yeah, I just felt like I was
so enclosed and wasn't alert to 

1627
01:45:27,760 --> 01:45:31,200
what was around me. 
But, you know, weirdly, when I'm

1628
01:45:31,200 --> 01:45:33,920
driving or when I take a dog for
what kind of headphones on, I 

1629
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:37,880
listen to music and I listen to 
music so many other times. 

1630
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:39,760
I don't know, music is always in
the background. 

1631
01:45:40,160 --> 01:45:44,080
But running? 
Yeah, Just what about 

1632
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:47,120
yourselves? 
Do you run the music or 

1633
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:48,960
podcasts? 
Books. 

1634
01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:52,040
For years I did, I was like 
yourself. 

1635
01:45:52,040 --> 01:45:56,760
I didn't run with anything. 
Weirdly is since I've started 

1636
01:45:56,760 --> 01:46:01,600
doing backyard ultras. 
I run listening to podcasts 

1637
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,800
because it slows me down. 
If I want to speed up, I'll 

1638
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:08,560
listen to music. 
In particular, kind of we 

1639
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:11,640
talking more kind of dance, 
metal, high beat, you know? 

1640
01:46:12,440 --> 01:46:18,440
I've got a 15 hour playlist that
the one I don't necessarily need

1641
01:46:18,440 --> 01:46:20,360
to like the music that's on the 
playlist. 

1642
01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:23,800
It's just it's not allowed to be
depressing because if I listen 

1643
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:26,600
to it during the race, I I do 
not want to be depressed. 

1644
01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:31,280
So it's happy music. 
It can be metal, anything. 

1645
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,160
There's some of my 7 year old 
daughter's music on there. 

1646
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:38,520
But Taylor Swift? 
No. 

1647
01:46:39,120 --> 01:46:43,560
But yeah, it's just as long as 
it doesn't get you down. 

1648
01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:46,600
So no Nick Cave in there then? 
No. 

1649
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:50,400
Is. 
The Macarena on that playlist 

1650
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:52,800
like. 
No, and it's not going to be. 

1651
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,800
No. 
You put it on for your backyard 

1652
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:01,360
in future. 
That that, that that would make 

1653
01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:03,240
you run too fast, and then that 
would just make you run away 

1654
01:47:03,320 --> 01:47:05,040
from it. 
Get away. 

1655
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:10,760
But it does like near the start 
of the race when you want to 

1656
01:47:10,760 --> 01:47:14,040
slow down, you listen to 
something that'll slow you down.

1657
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:20,520
Then during the sort of middle 
30 hours of the race, you're 

1658
01:47:21,240 --> 01:47:25,400
calming things and then once 
time is getting shorter, you 

1659
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:28,560
want to speed up. 
So use it as a tool, not 

1660
01:47:28,560 --> 01:47:33,280
necessarily need it. 
Yeah, that's a great way of 

1661
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:35,320
saying that, isn't it? 
What about yourself, Nikki? 

1662
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:41,080
I'm a bit strange in that way, 
as we all know anyway. 

1663
01:47:41,360 --> 01:47:47,280
But for tempo runs and of all 
sessions, I like dance music 

1664
01:47:47,400 --> 01:47:51,680
because it gets you moving. 
Longer runs depended on my 

1665
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,640
mindset. 
It'll be a podcast or something,

1666
01:47:54,640 --> 01:47:58,600
or this is a bit of a. 
It's a bit of a sad, honest 

1667
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:04,520
admission, but if I'm feeling a 
bit down or low, I'm very, very 

1668
01:48:04,520 --> 01:48:07,960
privileged and fortunate to know
a lot of the running community. 

1669
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:12,640
So I've got a lot of friends 
that do podcasts and if I, you 

1670
01:48:12,640 --> 01:48:16,120
know, I don't have my favourites
and a playlist so I'll just pop 

1671
01:48:16,120 --> 01:48:17,360
that on. 
It'll be like running with 

1672
01:48:17,360 --> 01:48:20,520
friends. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. 

1673
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:22,200
It's that conversation in the 
background. 

1674
01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:24,120
It's. 
Just that comforting. 

1675
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:27,560
It's when you speak to people, 
it's like having them on the 

1676
01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:30,800
phone but you don't have to talk
and you're just heading there 

1677
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:35,800
running stories again. 
And then for races, a lot of my 

1678
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:37,920
friends are actually there so I 
don't need to listen to 

1679
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:40,760
anything. 
Brilliant. 

1680
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:42,480
It's great. 
It's a wonderful how kind of 

1681
01:48:42,480 --> 01:48:45,840
we're all so different and then 
we all have these little 

1682
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:49,680
different nuances that connect 
to us in different ways. 

1683
01:48:49,680 --> 01:48:53,920
And yeah, I remember back it was
at 2010 when we had that really 

1684
01:48:53,920 --> 01:48:57,880
cold wintery spell and all the 
roads had frozen. 

1685
01:48:57,880 --> 01:49:01,080
There was that amazing kind of 
aerial photograph of Scotland 

1686
01:49:01,080 --> 01:49:05,320
completely covered in in snow. 
And I ended up training on a 

1687
01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:09,400
treadmill for like a week in a 
race gym. 

1688
01:49:09,880 --> 01:49:13,320
And I was trying to find the 
kind of right music to keep it 

1689
01:49:13,320 --> 01:49:15,400
powered for doing. 
I could just do 10K on a 

1690
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:16,880
treadmill. 
That was as much as I could do. 

1691
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:21,880
But yeah, it was either kind of 
prodigy or pendulum, which is 

1692
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:26,960
brilliant that right, kind of 
one 45150 beats per minute and 

1693
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:28,920
then I could get going. 
But like, you know, if it was 

1694
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:31,400
too slight, like say my it was 
like, Oh no, I just can't. 

1695
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:37,680
I'm like so. 
Any Prodigy song in particular? 

1696
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:49,760
Smack my bitch up where invade 
invaders must die as well. 

1697
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:53,080
That's yeah. 
I'm going to get to see them in 

1698
01:49:53,080 --> 01:49:56,160
April. 
They're over in April and 

1699
01:49:56,520 --> 01:50:00,520
finally get to see them live. 
So it's it's taken over these 

1700
01:50:00,520 --> 01:50:01,840
years to finally get to see 
them. 

1701
01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:07,120
I had a privilege many, many 
years ago at Tea in the Park to 

1702
01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:10,760
see Prodigy, James Brown and Foo
Fighters all at the same 

1703
01:50:10,760 --> 01:50:13,960
weekend. 
That it's a good lineup, isn't 

1704
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:15,840
it? 
That really is. 

1705
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:17,480
Yeah. 
I've never. 

1706
01:50:17,480 --> 01:50:19,160
Yeah. 
It's been a long time since I've

1707
01:50:19,320 --> 01:50:21,880
been to a festival built Pilton 
Pot Festival as it used to be. 

1708
01:50:21,880 --> 01:50:24,520
Good. 
Everybody's known as something 

1709
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:25,840
else now. 
Yeah. 

1710
01:50:26,120 --> 01:50:27,840
Brilliant. 
Excellent luck at the time. 

1711
01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:29,360
We've been chatting for ages. 
This is Marvel. 

1712
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:33,000
This episode has turned into an 
ultra marathon, and it's. 

1713
01:50:33,040 --> 01:50:35,840
Not, not at all. 
This will be great for my next 

1714
01:50:35,840 --> 01:50:41,120
long run. 
If you've made it this far, you 

1715
01:50:41,160 --> 01:50:43,880
get a medal. 
Well, whether you're listening 

1716
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:46,240
and if you've got this far 
listeners, well done. 

1717
01:50:46,720 --> 01:50:48,320
And if you're still running, 
keep going. 

1718
01:50:49,240 --> 01:50:51,520
We only have a handful of 
questions left. 

1719
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:54,280
You'll be happy or not happy to 
know if you've still got another

1720
01:50:54,280 --> 01:50:57,160
three hours left to go on your 
SO to. 

1721
01:50:58,080 --> 01:51:04,600
Short answers now please Marcus.
You've done, as we've said, so 

1722
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:10,160
many incredible races already. 
Do you have any dream races or 

1723
01:51:10,160 --> 01:51:13,480
adventures? 
Fastest known times on your 

1724
01:51:13,480 --> 01:51:15,160
radar? 
On the bucket list. 

1725
01:51:16,080 --> 01:51:21,360
Yeah, there's 2 has always been 
on my bucket list, one which I 

1726
01:51:21,360 --> 01:51:23,240
think is well and truly about my
grasp. 

1727
01:51:23,240 --> 01:51:26,920
Now, unfortunately it's Western 
states, always wanted to do 

1728
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:29,200
Western states, it would have 
really suited me. 

1729
01:51:29,960 --> 01:51:31,840
So that was always on my bucket 
list. 

1730
01:51:33,040 --> 01:51:35,000
The Barclays have always been on
that. 

1731
01:51:35,000 --> 01:51:40,320
I've tried getting into it twice
now been unsuccessful and partly

1732
01:51:40,320 --> 01:51:42,760
because it's the first time I 
sent ISA in too early. 

1733
01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:45,320
I mean, you get an e-mail from 
Laz. 

1734
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:47,400
It's really exciting. 
It's like an e-mail from that. 

1735
01:51:47,480 --> 01:51:54,120
Oh no. 
So yeah, those those two in the 

1736
01:51:55,200 --> 01:52:01,440
in the states, I'd love to have 
a a go at and what I wish I'd 

1737
01:52:01,440 --> 01:52:05,600
done years ago when I was a 
little bit younger or had the no

1738
01:52:05,600 --> 01:52:08,440
trial ability that does now is 
depend on way. 

1739
01:52:10,200 --> 01:52:14,400
But John Kelly, annoyingly, is 
just destroyed that time. 

1740
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:19,280
Just absolutely, yeah. 
To get close to that, it's going

1741
01:52:19,280 --> 01:52:21,800
to take an exceptional 
performance. 

1742
01:52:21,800 --> 01:52:25,600
And I was really fortunate to 
pace him from Westington to 

1743
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:28,880
Edel. 
And it was an absolute privilege

1744
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:32,320
to see him. 
I mean, to see him destroy 

1745
01:52:32,320 --> 01:52:38,360
himself, but to see if just a 
way he was able to keep pushing 

1746
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:43,040
and how deep he was able to go. 
Yeah, I was just, yeah, so 

1747
01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:44,800
fortunate to see that I'd be 
part of. 

1748
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:47,400
But you know, I was telling him 
to slow down a little bit. 

1749
01:52:49,440 --> 01:52:50,840
And rest but. 
Yeah. 

1750
01:52:50,840 --> 01:52:54,960
And rest yeah, those would be. 
And there's, I mean what's 

1751
01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:57,640
great, there's still so many 
races in the Uki haven't got 

1752
01:52:57,640 --> 01:53:00,040
round to do, which I'd love to 
do. 

1753
01:53:03,800 --> 01:53:06,560
I am meant to be doing the West 
High and Way race this summer, 

1754
01:53:07,320 --> 01:53:09,840
but it does look like I might 
not be able to do it now, 

1755
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:15,080
unfortunately, because of some 
work commitments and that's 

1756
01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:18,720
always been on the bucket list. 
There's a race to do. 

1757
01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:25,000
But yeah, so much isn't there. 
It's just so fortunate, so many 

1758
01:53:25,000 --> 01:53:30,720
great routes as well. 
I say FKTS, yeah. 

1759
01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:36,000
It's just shame is so much in in
choice in some respects because 

1760
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:39,120
it's just difficult to be able 
to fit them in and she said. 

1761
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:41,680
I haven't been fortunate to do 
so many amazing races and I'm so

1762
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:44,960
grateful. 
And you said, just said there 

1763
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:47,120
that you had the privilege of 
running with John Kelly. 

1764
01:53:50,120 --> 01:53:52,600
The the next question that might
be the answer. 

1765
01:53:53,960 --> 01:53:58,280
Who is there anybody that you 
would want to run with, either 

1766
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:04,760
alive or not, fictional or real?
It's it's when you said about 

1767
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:05,960
what I think about what I'm 
running. 

1768
01:54:06,200 --> 01:54:08,720
I have spent way too long 
thinking about this one 

1769
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:10,920
question. 
Absolutely. 

1770
01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:17,120
If we was doing this with Jen, 
she would be laughing her socks 

1771
01:54:17,120 --> 01:54:23,440
off because she would quite be 
very honest in saying that I run

1772
01:54:23,440 --> 01:54:25,440
with very few people. 
I mean, I used to have an 

1773
01:54:25,440 --> 01:54:28,120
amazing training partner, lived 
in Leicester and we did a lot of

1774
01:54:28,120 --> 01:54:31,040
our training together. 
But now if you do kind of stalk,

1775
01:54:31,040 --> 01:54:33,400
be on stride, you'll see I am a 
very lonesome brother. 

1776
01:54:33,400 --> 01:54:35,680
And I just enjoy that, that time
on my own. 

1777
01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:38,760
So I think if I was to run with 
somebody, it'd have to be 

1778
01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:41,680
someone who maybe was either 
very quiet or was just allowed. 

1779
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:45,200
So I'm, I'm, I'm allowed two 
people, yeah. 

1780
01:54:45,680 --> 01:54:47,680
You can have an energy one. 
Oh, I mean, it's like, well, 

1781
01:54:47,760 --> 01:54:52,080
goodness, how long we got left. 
So if I'm like, OK, if I have 

1782
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:55,920
three people, I would have, I 
thought about this and so one if

1783
01:54:55,920 --> 01:54:59,840
it'd be really nice and quiet. 
So I'm not a Buddhist, but do 

1784
01:54:59,840 --> 01:55:01,680
quite like a lot of Buddhist 
philosophy. 

1785
01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:03,240
I'm really interested in 
philosophy. 

1786
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:06,600
And there's a brilliant Buddhist
teacher who fortunately passed 

1787
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:09,800
away a couple of years ago, 
Thick Nat Nahan, who's written 

1788
01:55:09,800 --> 01:55:12,600
loads of great books about 
mindfulness meditation. 

1789
01:55:13,280 --> 01:55:16,840
And I think the privilege to go 
for a run with him, that'd be 

1790
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:18,560
more quite walking. 
It would just be quiet. 

1791
01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:22,160
I just know there wouldn't be 
any conversation to be 

1792
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:24,680
brilliant. 
It would just be like just so 

1793
01:55:24,680 --> 01:55:27,280
connected then just to sit and 
do some meditation with somebody

1794
01:55:27,280 --> 01:55:30,160
about him afterwards where if he
did have something to share, it 

1795
01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:33,040
would just, it would just be so 
beautiful because some of the 

1796
01:55:33,760 --> 01:55:36,280
things he wrote, it's just, if 
you've now come across some of 

1797
01:55:36,280 --> 01:55:40,400
his writing, I really recommend 
having a look at some of his 

1798
01:55:40,400 --> 01:55:43,520
books. 
And yeah, and there's a 

1799
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:47,120
brilliant film about the Plum 
Village retreat centre he had in

1800
01:55:47,120 --> 01:55:49,440
France. 
So that would be why kind of 

1801
01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:52,680
silent choice. 
If I could then go over somebody

1802
01:55:52,680 --> 01:55:57,040
more poetic, it would be Robert 
Frost, who's my favorite 

1803
01:55:57,600 --> 01:56:01,760
American poet. 
And he wrote a lot of poetry 

1804
01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:03,240
which is quite suitable for 
runners. 

1805
01:56:04,240 --> 01:56:08,200
He wrote the great poem about 
kind of the road, less travel, 

1806
01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:13,440
taking the path. 
And also one of his poems he 

1807
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:17,680
talks about saying I've got 
miles and miles to go before I 

1808
01:56:17,680 --> 01:56:20,000
can sleep. 
And I think that's just a great 

1809
01:56:20,880 --> 01:56:22,880
culture running kind of quote, 
isn't it? 

1810
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:27,320
So it'd be it'd be great to go 
from him and just his 

1811
01:56:27,320 --> 01:56:28,920
description of landscapes as 
well. 

1812
01:56:28,960 --> 01:56:31,680
Is is beautiful, like Mary 
Oliver, just so wonderful. 

1813
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:33,920
And then the third, if I really 
could get if he's then it has to

1814
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:36,080
be a runner. 
You have to go run with a a 

1815
01:56:36,560 --> 01:56:39,280
famous runner. 
I don't have you ever come 

1816
01:56:39,280 --> 01:56:43,080
across the ghost runner John 
Tarrant. 

1817
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:46,440
So again, really good. 
Another good book 

1818
01:56:46,440 --> 01:56:47,920
recommendation. 
John Tarrant. 

1819
01:56:48,760 --> 01:56:54,880
He was running back in the kind 
of 40s and 50s and based in 

1820
01:56:54,920 --> 01:56:57,040
Buxton. 
Well in Buxton in the Peak 

1821
01:56:57,040 --> 01:57:00,760
District where he used to live. 
And unfortunately when he was 17

1822
01:57:00,760 --> 01:57:05,640
years old he was paid to a 
boxing match or won some money 

1823
01:57:05,640 --> 01:57:08,760
in a boxing match, which then 
meant he was in class as a 

1824
01:57:08,760 --> 01:57:13,040
professional athlete. 
So he then could not compete in 

1825
01:57:13,040 --> 01:57:16,880
any road races. 
Wasn't air label. 

1826
01:57:16,880 --> 01:57:21,040
So this is when there was a real
Blazer brigade in that time. 

1827
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:25,800
And the reason why he was called
the ghost runner was because 

1828
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,640
like Manchester Marathon or 
these other races when it's 

1829
01:57:28,640 --> 01:57:32,880
quite low key, his brother would
pull up near a start on the 

1830
01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:37,040
moped and literally just drop 
him off as a race starts and he 

1831
01:57:37,040 --> 01:57:39,640
would whip his jacket off and he
would run the race. 

1832
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:43,640
And he was a phenomenal runner. 
He should have qualified well. 

1833
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:47,480
He ran time qualifying for the 
Olympics and then he get into 

1834
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:52,360
gets into ultra running and sets
100 mile record runs down in 

1835
01:57:52,360 --> 01:57:54,360
South Africa, comrades and 
tubes. 

1836
01:57:54,360 --> 01:57:59,160
It's a it's a wonderful book. 
Like old man. 

1837
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:07,960
He has several flaws, but you 
know, it's a real kind of story 

1838
01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:12,920
of frustration to a degree, but 
also of what how he was able to 

1839
01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:16,400
train and overcame those as a 
real story of resilience as 

1840
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:18,600
well. 
And, you know, pushing against 

1841
01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:22,560
the societal norms on that kind 
of blaze brigade. 

1842
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:27,640
And then how even though we had 
all those struggles against him 

1843
01:58:27,640 --> 01:58:32,440
and barriers, he overcame them 
and settle a record at 100 mile 

1844
01:58:32,440 --> 01:58:37,080
and kind of was almost funded 
for his running for a period of 

1845
01:58:37,080 --> 01:58:38,600
time as well. 
But yeah, check out the Ghost 

1846
01:58:38,600 --> 01:58:42,560
Runner. 
It's a fabulous, brilliant book.

1847
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:45,200
Highly recommend it. 
Be good on the audiobook if you 

1848
01:58:45,200 --> 01:58:47,200
went into audiobooks on the runs
as well. 

1849
01:58:48,160 --> 01:58:49,200
So there we go. 
Yeah, sorry. 

1850
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:51,720
It's. 
Getting handed to my last no. 

1851
01:58:53,000 --> 01:58:55,120
If you've not come across, yeah,
I mean, it came out I think in 

1852
01:58:55,120 --> 01:58:59,160
about 2018 or something. 
It came out pretty locked down. 

1853
01:58:59,160 --> 01:59:03,880
It did win an award for kind of 
one of the best sports books of 

1854
01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:06,320
that year. 
It's a good question, isn't it? 

1855
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:08,040
It's a really interesting 
question, isn't it, who you're 

1856
01:59:08,040 --> 01:59:11,360
wrong with Because it's just, I 
mean, I've been so fortunate to 

1857
01:59:11,360 --> 01:59:15,320
run with John Kelly, Steve 
Birkinshaw, Amy and Hall. 

1858
01:59:16,120 --> 01:59:22,880
I've met Killian, yeah. 
He's just, yeah. 

1859
01:59:23,160 --> 01:59:24,680
It's a tricky 1, isn't it 
really? 

1860
01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:28,360
I can imagine Killian being 
quite a quiet training partner. 

1861
01:59:29,800 --> 01:59:37,680
He's a very quiet, yeah, short 
for me, yeah. 

1862
01:59:40,840 --> 01:59:47,240
So for the rest of the year and 
going forward, what is next for 

1863
01:59:47,280 --> 01:59:49,040
what's coming up for you running
wise? 

1864
01:59:50,240 --> 01:59:59,160
So next next key race is 
Inverness Half Marathon back on 

1865
01:59:59,160 --> 02:00:04,800
the halves, not yet cope with a 
full Yeah, it it completely 

1866
02:00:04,800 --> 02:00:06,920
egotistical. 
It's a Scottish half marathon 

1867
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:12,120
championships again against 
defend my Vet 50 title. 

1868
02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:16,760
So I'm going to go back there. 
To have a stab at that and then 

1869
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:20,280
go back to probably your your 
favorite race, Nikki the Devil 

1870
02:00:20,280 --> 02:00:23,000
Highlands. 
Oh, fantastic. 

1871
02:00:24,680 --> 02:00:29,000
Yeah, doing that at the end of 
April and then all being well, 

1872
02:00:29,400 --> 02:00:31,360
hopefully the fling at the end 
of August. 

1873
02:00:31,360 --> 02:00:34,160
Oh, you're. 
Not going to see well. 

1874
02:00:34,160 --> 02:00:37,200
May get to see you. 
Yeah. 

1875
02:00:38,800 --> 02:00:44,440
But you know, I've got a busy 
year with assignments and 

1876
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:47,360
dissertations. 
As part of my PhD, I'm having to

1877
02:00:47,360 --> 02:00:53,840
do a master's in education 
research, and that comes to an 

1878
02:00:53,840 --> 02:00:56,640
end in the end of August, 
September time. 

1879
02:00:57,280 --> 02:01:01,840
So that is going to be a bit 
more a priority than the running

1880
02:01:01,840 --> 02:01:03,160
to the degree. 
By the racing, I mean the 

1881
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:07,440
running's still going to need it
to get that headspace and for me

1882
02:01:07,440 --> 02:01:11,240
to be able to write my 
conclusions and other parts of 

1883
02:01:11,240 --> 02:01:15,280
assignments. 
But you know, This is why when 

1884
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:18,040
you know saying what's kind of 
bit of one of the most momentous

1885
02:01:18,040 --> 02:01:22,120
moments having that shift in my 
life to somebody go actually 

1886
02:01:22,800 --> 02:01:25,920
this is far more important 
opportunity of being given to do

1887
02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:28,400
a PhD. 
Yeah, definitely. 

1888
02:01:28,640 --> 02:01:33,200
To be going off doing like Rath 
again or some of the ultra. 

1889
02:01:36,480 --> 02:01:40,800
We've got one question left on 
the question set, but I've I've 

1890
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:45,560
got two other ones written down 
and you, you just mentioned your

1891
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:48,840
PhD. 
First question, what's your PhD 

1892
02:01:48,840 --> 02:01:51,560
in? 
Right. 

1893
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:55,360
You strap yourself in. 
If you've got a running coach, 

1894
02:01:57,000 --> 02:01:58,200
you've got somebody's a running 
coach. 

1895
02:01:58,200 --> 02:02:01,880
Somebody had done was doing a 
master's in sports performance 

1896
02:02:01,880 --> 02:02:04,240
coaching. 
What do you think that PhD might

1897
02:02:04,240 --> 02:02:07,000
be in? 
I, I shall be as well on this 

1898
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:09,080
too long folks, because you've 
been sat around for quite a long

1899
02:02:09,080 --> 02:02:13,040
time. 
So my PhD, it's in the card game

1900
02:02:13,040 --> 02:02:17,880
bridge. 
The theory behind it or. 

1901
02:02:18,040 --> 02:02:19,400
No. 
So let me take that apart a 

1902
02:02:19,400 --> 02:02:24,520
little bit more as well for you.
So I'm looking at how the card 

1903
02:02:24,520 --> 02:02:29,680
game bridge could be used in 
primary school education, which 

1904
02:02:29,680 --> 02:02:32,240
is where it gets really 
interesting because I do have a 

1905
02:02:32,240 --> 02:02:37,600
background in school chaplaincy,
outdoor education as well. 

1906
02:02:38,160 --> 02:02:43,680
So yeah, it wasn't like if you 
said you can go and do a PhD, 

1907
02:02:44,240 --> 02:02:45,440
you know, what do you want to do
it? 

1908
02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:48,120
And it'll be like, yeah, kind of
running or coaching, wouldn't 

1909
02:02:48,120 --> 02:02:51,480
it? 
But it's a fully funded PhD at 

1910
02:02:51,480 --> 02:02:53,960
the University of Sterling where
I was already studying. 

1911
02:02:54,560 --> 02:03:00,440
And to get a fully funded PhD 
and a really rare I sort of 

1912
02:03:00,440 --> 02:03:02,960
advertised was I was doing my 
masters in sports when I was 

1913
02:03:02,960 --> 02:03:04,360
coaching. 
It was like this could be a 

1914
02:03:04,360 --> 02:03:11,960
great opportunity and yeah, kind
of applied and even I don't have

1915
02:03:11,960 --> 02:03:17,720
a degree was successful and but 
really, really privileged that 

1916
02:03:17,720 --> 02:03:19,480
I'm being in this opportunity 
to. 

1917
02:03:20,400 --> 02:03:23,360
I think it probably suits to my 
slight eccentricity, doesn't it 

1918
02:03:23,360 --> 02:03:27,960
without running to to be looking
at bridging in in schools. 

1919
02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:32,480
It's really absolutely, that's 
why there's a pack of cars on my

1920
02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:38,800
shelf behind me. 
But you know, to be able to have

1921
02:03:39,440 --> 02:03:45,240
what hopefully could be a real 
positive impact upon education. 

1922
02:03:45,960 --> 02:03:49,280
You know, it's not that we want 
every school or every pupil to 

1923
02:03:49,280 --> 02:03:55,080
be be playing bridge, but it 
will hopefully give us quality 

1924
02:03:55,080 --> 02:03:58,840
data or evidence based data that
we could say how certain 

1925
02:03:58,840 --> 02:04:01,560
different activities, certain 
games, but especially maybe 

1926
02:04:01,560 --> 02:04:03,600
certain aspects of bridge, 
because there's different 

1927
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:07,600
versions and types of bridge you
can use, can just change to 

1928
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:11,880
classroom and how young people 
learn and somebody who didn't 

1929
02:04:11,880 --> 02:04:14,520
enjoy school. 
And if I'd given the opportunity

1930
02:04:14,520 --> 02:04:19,800
to maybe play a card game or 
something different, it could 

1931
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:23,840
really change the the dynamics 
how young people learn. 

1932
02:04:23,840 --> 02:04:25,240
And you have a great thing with 
bridge. 

1933
02:04:25,240 --> 02:04:29,000
It's a collaborative game you 
play in a partnership to playing

1934
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:30,520
at 4:00. 
So again, it's a different 

1935
02:04:30,520 --> 02:04:34,600
dynamic of one-on-one. 
It's, you know, it's two against

1936
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:39,120
2. 
So yeah, the the the more I 

1937
02:04:39,120 --> 02:04:44,120
reflect on it, the more kind of,
yeah, privileged and exciting. 

1938
02:04:44,120 --> 02:04:49,120
I'm off next week to the 
Netherlands to Uter expert have 

1939
02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:53,680
kind of four day seminar and 
conference to be fully bridge 

1940
02:04:53,680 --> 02:04:56,720
immersed. 
But yeah, so if you see me back 

1941
02:04:56,720 --> 02:04:59,240
posting it online, that's why 
I'm posting about Bridge online 

1942
02:04:59,280 --> 02:05:02,000
now. 
I'm sure there's something about

1943
02:05:02,080 --> 02:05:07,880
game theory and how that 
improves or changes the way that

1944
02:05:07,880 --> 02:05:10,800
people think. 
I guess that is applying to 

1945
02:05:11,000 --> 02:05:13,640
children as well. 
Question. 

1946
02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:18,520
Can you apply that to runners? 
Yeah, and I think there is a 

1947
02:05:18,560 --> 02:05:25,920
huge kind of crossover with like
gamification and, and, and all 

1948
02:05:25,920 --> 02:05:32,200
the different kind of mental 
skills involved in, in, in 

1949
02:05:32,200 --> 02:05:35,520
playing bridge and running. 
Because even though you've, you 

1950
02:05:35,520 --> 02:05:38,320
know, a game of bridge doesn't 
take very long, it's still a 

1951
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:41,960
very kind of small ecosystem 
with the same emotions, 

1952
02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:47,040
interactions, winning, losing, 
gauging what is success, what 

1953
02:05:47,040 --> 02:05:50,160
isn't successful. 
And it's the same when we're 

1954
02:05:50,160 --> 02:05:53,720
running, you know, we can put 
all those similar sort of 

1955
02:05:53,960 --> 02:05:57,800
expectations outcomes within, 
within running. 

1956
02:05:58,000 --> 02:06:01,480
Same with kind of coaching, you 
know, you're trying to help 

1957
02:06:01,880 --> 02:06:07,440
athletes overcome a problem or 
solve a problem or see somebody 

1958
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:09,480
doing in a new way or trying 
something different. 

1959
02:06:09,480 --> 02:06:12,520
So I think, you know, there is, 
it's so wonderful blended. 

1960
02:06:12,520 --> 02:06:17,560
I think it's one of the reasons 
why I got picked out the 46th of

1961
02:06:17,560 --> 02:06:22,400
an applicant who applied for, 
for the post because I, you 

1962
02:06:22,400 --> 02:06:27,920
know, I bring that kind of 
coaching lens to the research 

1963
02:06:28,000 --> 02:06:31,960
rather than somebody who's just 
an academic background. 

1964
02:06:33,440 --> 02:06:38,080
So yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm still,
well, including my early days, 

1965
02:06:38,200 --> 02:06:42,360
still trying to find ways to 
explain my, my PhD. 

1966
02:06:42,360 --> 02:06:46,440
I've got my head around my 
title, but at the moment I've 

1967
02:06:46,440 --> 02:06:50,280
been writing a dissertation. 
We're using a very child 

1968
02:06:50,280 --> 02:06:52,520
friendly version with student 
teachers at the university. 

1969
02:06:52,520 --> 02:06:55,120
So yeah, it's interesting. 
It's different, and it's nice to

1970
02:06:55,120 --> 02:06:56,440
be doing something different 
than. 

1971
02:06:58,120 --> 02:07:00,360
It definitely sounds 
interesting. 

1972
02:07:03,720 --> 02:07:10,120
No, I'm genuinely my my wife's 
doing PhD and she's doing it in 

1973
02:07:10,120 --> 02:07:12,840
soil physics. 
So what you're doing is is 

1974
02:07:12,840 --> 02:07:20,200
interesting. 
I've got a bit more interaction 

1975
02:07:20,200 --> 02:07:21,840
than this class. 
Remember that in soil. 

1976
02:07:21,840 --> 02:07:25,720
And it's just, it's just just so
how many years has she been 

1977
02:07:25,720 --> 02:07:29,240
doing? 
She she's doing it part time so 

1978
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:33,560
she's on year 7. 
Oh wow, yeah, I'm so glad. 

1979
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,520
My, I've heard that. 
It must that that really is 

1980
02:07:36,520 --> 02:07:41,360
needing resilience, isn't it? 
Yep, funding runs out in August 

1981
02:07:41,400 --> 02:07:44,960
so it has to be done by then. 
She currently writing 

1982
02:07:44,960 --> 02:07:46,240
dissertation up at the moment 
then. 

1983
02:07:48,080 --> 02:07:52,560
Yep, right, talking about 
education, going right back to 

1984
02:07:52,560 --> 02:07:55,000
the start of the podcast which 
is 2 hours ago. 

1985
02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:56,720
Wow, sorry. 
Thanks. 

1986
02:07:57,360 --> 02:07:59,520
No, don't, don't apologise. 
This is what's. 

1987
02:08:01,320 --> 02:08:04,120
Happening to the traitors and 
everyone just text me what's 

1988
02:08:04,120 --> 02:08:06,720
happening to the traitors. 
I thought that was going to be 

1989
02:08:06,760 --> 02:08:09,520
your answer for what you were 
thinking about when you said you

1990
02:08:09,520 --> 02:08:11,920
were thinking about tonight. 
Like what's happening with 

1991
02:08:11,920 --> 02:08:17,000
traitors with your? 
Mother, let's just qualify this.

1992
02:08:17,760 --> 02:08:20,800
We only got into the trades as 
well as it was a celebrity one 

1993
02:08:20,800 --> 02:08:23,480
because the celebrity traders 
was funny. 

1994
02:08:23,960 --> 02:08:26,880
We aren't really watching the 
current one. 

1995
02:08:27,480 --> 02:08:30,480
It's just a little background. 
We don't until last year we 

1996
02:08:30,480 --> 02:08:34,240
didn't have ATV. 
We only got ATV last year so we 

1997
02:08:34,240 --> 02:08:36,480
could watch the darts, but 
that's another story. 

1998
02:08:37,560 --> 02:08:40,400
If we start talking about darts,
we'd be here for another hour. 

1999
02:08:43,360 --> 02:08:45,840
The The gamification of Luke, 
Luke Littler. 

2000
02:08:46,080 --> 02:08:48,880
And why are people booing him 
when he's doing well? 

2001
02:08:49,160 --> 02:08:51,520
No, we're not getting into that.
What, what, what? 

2002
02:08:51,720 --> 02:08:54,040
What's the similarities between 
running and darts? 

2003
02:08:54,120 --> 02:08:56,320
I tell you, I've got that one. 
I'm truly sussed out. 

2004
02:08:56,520 --> 02:08:58,360
What? 
I only got into darts 3, we have

2005
02:08:58,440 --> 02:08:59,840
that. 
On the next episode. 

2006
02:09:00,120 --> 02:09:03,080
Yeah, Gemma, Gemma, you have to 
get very fun with me and Gemma 

2007
02:09:03,400 --> 02:09:06,520
anyway, sorry. 
No, the actual question was 

2008
02:09:06,520 --> 02:09:08,680
right back at the start. 
You mentioned you had two 

2009
02:09:08,680 --> 02:09:10,400
choices. 
You could either do sports 

2010
02:09:10,400 --> 02:09:12,960
science or go to drama school. 
Yeah. 

2011
02:09:13,520 --> 02:09:14,680
What happened at drama school? 
Oh. 

2012
02:09:15,760 --> 02:09:21,400
I scratched that itch back in 
2014 and 15. 

2013
02:09:22,840 --> 02:09:25,040
By doing. 
Acting. 

2014
02:09:26,840 --> 02:09:27,560
Tell us more. 
Oh my. 

2015
02:09:29,000 --> 02:09:41,480
God, this could be another hour.
So a friend of Jen's is an art 

2016
02:09:41,480 --> 02:09:48,760
director in TV and I always had 
like this, yeah, desire to get 

2017
02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:52,880
into acting and performing as if
you wouldn't guess how long 

2018
02:09:52,880 --> 02:09:53,960
you've been listening to this 
way. 

2019
02:09:54,400 --> 02:09:58,560
And so I jokingly, why not 
jokingly, but said to Jen, can 

2020
02:09:58,560 --> 02:10:02,600
you ask Phoebe if there's any 
work or essay work, sporting 

2021
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:05,000
artist work coming up on a 
programme? 

2022
02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:09,240
And yeah, she got me on a three 
day job on Houdini and Doyle, 

2023
02:10:10,080 --> 02:10:13,520
which was on ITV four I think 
with Stephen Magner and an 

2024
02:10:13,520 --> 02:10:17,520
American actor. 
And I did 3 days on there. 

2025
02:10:18,120 --> 02:10:22,160
And from there I got an agent 
straight away. 

2026
02:10:23,040 --> 02:10:28,640
And that agent got me on, got me
a really good walk on part on 

2027
02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:31,600
Jericho, which was cut, which 
was hilarious. 

2028
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:34,400
Just really good part. 
It's a really good scene. 

2029
02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:37,800
And went to sit and watch it. 
My kids going, hey, that's going

2030
02:10:37,800 --> 02:10:40,520
to be on TV. 
So we sat down ready to watch 

2031
02:10:40,520 --> 02:10:42,240
this final episode. 
Here we go. 

2032
02:10:42,280 --> 02:10:45,600
Here's the bits going to come. 
Hang on a second. 

2033
02:10:45,600 --> 02:10:48,480
What? 
No, what? 

2034
02:10:48,480 --> 02:10:51,480
No, no, this scene was meant to 
be in this bit here. 

2035
02:10:51,920 --> 02:10:56,480
So I got cut like Toby Jones 
getting cut out of Notting Hill.

2036
02:10:56,600 --> 02:10:58,880
If you've ever heard that story,
Toby Jones getting cut. 

2037
02:10:59,120 --> 02:11:01,640
So yeah. 
And then from that one, I then 

2038
02:11:01,640 --> 02:11:05,360
probably got one of my most 
memorable roles was getting in 

2039
02:11:05,360 --> 02:11:15,840
Peaky Blinders and yeah, Season 
3, Episode 2, I think playing 

2040
02:11:15,840 --> 02:11:20,040
one of the Cossacks. 
It's the when the Russians get 

2041
02:11:20,040 --> 02:11:23,720
involved, one of the Cossacks in
the line of a big beard. 

2042
02:11:24,840 --> 02:11:27,600
So I came back as well looking 
really mean. 

2043
02:11:27,960 --> 02:11:32,120
I think it wasn't in the orgy 
scene, wasn't available for that

2044
02:11:32,200 --> 02:11:34,760
day of shooting. 
But then I'm down in the 

2045
02:11:36,240 --> 02:11:39,360
basement with Tom Hardy as well 
when we go down into the 

2046
02:11:39,360 --> 02:11:41,120
basement. 
So yeah. 

2047
02:11:41,120 --> 02:11:47,880
And then I, I did kind of quite 
a few bit of, I started off 

2048
02:11:47,880 --> 02:11:51,160
doing background work. 
I got a couple of featured 

2049
02:11:51,160 --> 02:11:58,040
roles, had a name character on 
Brief Encounters playing Nigel 

2050
02:11:58,040 --> 02:12:06,080
the hairdresser. 
I got to be on the Lowry stage 

2051
02:12:06,160 --> 02:12:10,680
with National Ballet. 
He's a background artist. 

2052
02:12:10,840 --> 02:12:14,320
And Jeff was like, what the hell
have you put on your CV? 

2053
02:12:15,400 --> 02:12:18,000
My agent contacted me, so yeah, 
no. 

2054
02:12:18,880 --> 02:12:23,880
And then during that period I 
did apply for drama school in in

2055
02:12:23,880 --> 02:12:30,600
Manchester and got accepted to 
do a foundation course at drama 

2056
02:12:30,600 --> 02:12:33,360
school. 
But again, I just weighed it up 

2057
02:12:33,360 --> 02:12:36,880
and was like, I was busy doing 
sports therapy. 

2058
02:12:37,560 --> 02:12:39,040
Busy. 
Yeah, I wasn't coaching full 

2059
02:12:39,040 --> 02:12:44,160
time then because it I was doing
sports therapy until maybe 

2060
02:12:44,160 --> 02:12:45,840
kicked in and clinic had to 
close. 

2061
02:12:46,640 --> 02:12:53,040
And acting is act as a real to 
be an actor you really have to 

2062
02:12:53,040 --> 02:12:56,960
have a high degree of resilience
because it's such an 

2063
02:12:56,960 --> 02:13:01,840
unpredictable career. 
Yeah, I would go from casting to

2064
02:13:01,840 --> 02:13:05,200
casting and just not be 
successful. 

2065
02:13:05,200 --> 02:13:09,320
I could just make a living out 
doing essay work, supporting 

2066
02:13:09,320 --> 02:13:12,400
artist work, background stuff. 
But in the event you'd probably 

2067
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:15,880
get like 80 quid, £100 a day 
depending on the job. 

2068
02:13:18,480 --> 02:13:24,880
So, yeah, I remember my last 
casting was to play Vincent van 

2069
02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:29,760
Gogh, which interestingly, my 
first job of Houdini and Doyle, 

2070
02:13:29,760 --> 02:13:31,360
the director kept calling me 
Vincent. 

2071
02:13:31,960 --> 02:13:34,560
I was like, that's Marcus. 
I was like that Vincent, 

2072
02:13:34,720 --> 02:13:36,880
honestly. 
Like I said to like the AD, I 

2073
02:13:36,880 --> 02:13:40,120
was like, why does the director 
keep calling me Vincent? 

2074
02:13:40,120 --> 02:13:41,200
This is can you look like 
Vincent? 

2075
02:13:41,200 --> 02:13:42,600
Hang off. 
OK. 

2076
02:13:42,640 --> 02:13:45,400
I had a bigger beard, then 
bigger beard, a bit more hair. 

2077
02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:48,040
So yeah. 
So my last casting was to and I 

2078
02:13:48,040 --> 02:13:54,160
was on pencil for it, which 
means so in in that industry, 

2079
02:13:54,800 --> 02:14:00,160
being on pencil means you're 
kind of semi booked and you go 

2080
02:14:00,160 --> 02:14:05,120
from pencil to being booked. 
But yeah, so I scratched the 

2081
02:14:05,120 --> 02:14:06,440
itch. 
I did it. 

2082
02:14:08,280 --> 02:14:10,000
I'm so glad you didn't say Crime
Watch. 

2083
02:14:10,600 --> 02:14:13,080
Yeah, I think my crime watch. 
No, I don't want me for that. 

2084
02:14:13,320 --> 02:14:18,480
Yeah, it was such a laugh. 
It really was such a any 

2085
02:14:18,480 --> 02:14:22,520
problem. 
It just it ruins how I watch TV 

2086
02:14:22,520 --> 02:14:28,160
now as you know how all the 
shots are done and different 

2087
02:14:28,160 --> 02:14:30,880
takes. 
I also spent too much time 

2088
02:14:30,880 --> 02:14:33,760
watching the essays in the 
background to see what they're 

2089
02:14:33,760 --> 02:14:37,640
doing because of what direction 
they would have been given or 

2090
02:14:38,280 --> 02:14:40,480
how I've ever told to make fake 
conversations. 

2091
02:14:41,880 --> 02:14:44,560
Yeah, it's quite a few programs 
I'd like in the background. 

2092
02:14:44,560 --> 02:14:50,600
I was played Duke and Norfolk in
Victoria at the coronation as 

2093
02:14:50,600 --> 02:14:52,720
well. 
But yeah, picky blinders is 1 

2094
02:14:52,720 --> 02:14:54,960
people would go. 
So you're a Peaky Blinders. 

2095
02:14:55,480 --> 02:14:58,480
Yeah, that's me. 
And what, what episode was that 

2096
02:14:58,480 --> 02:15:02,920
again to remind us? 
I mean, it's just. 2. 

2097
02:15:03,240 --> 02:15:07,040
I think, yeah, don't hold me to 
it because what was really 

2098
02:15:07,040 --> 02:15:09,200
funny, I hadn't watched Peaky 
Blinders till a couple of years 

2099
02:15:09,200 --> 02:15:12,440
ago. 
I hadn't seen it. 

2100
02:15:12,440 --> 02:15:16,720
So I was on it and chatting to 
Kitty and Murphy through that 

2101
02:15:16,800 --> 02:15:19,160
music. 
In between text was sat down 

2102
02:15:19,160 --> 02:15:21,440
chatting and I was like talking 
here. 

2103
02:15:21,480 --> 02:15:25,560
It's like when I went to this is
This is why it's going to be 3 

2104
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:29,440
hours longest. 
So so you know, when they say if

2105
02:15:29,440 --> 02:15:32,400
you go to a job, you blag it. 
You don't always tell the truth 

2106
02:15:33,040 --> 02:15:34,320
if you get interviewed for 
something. 

2107
02:15:34,720 --> 02:15:36,920
Yeah. 
So I got a really good casting 

2108
02:15:36,920 --> 02:15:40,720
for a part in Emmerdale, which 
would have been like over 

2109
02:15:40,720 --> 02:15:45,800
several episodes. 
We didn't have ATV. 

2110
02:15:47,160 --> 02:15:49,640
It's it's a bit like the big 
Ghostbusters, isn't it? 

2111
02:15:49,640 --> 02:15:51,360
If somebody asks is your regard,
you say yes. 

2112
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:55,000
So they were asking me about 
what I watched on TV and 

2113
02:15:55,320 --> 02:15:58,160
actually I don't have TV. 
Big mistake. 

2114
02:15:58,600 --> 02:16:00,520
Big, big mistake. 
I should have been, Oh yeah, I 

2115
02:16:00,520 --> 02:16:02,200
love Emmerdale. 
I should have all my homework. 

2116
02:16:02,200 --> 02:16:06,920
Should have kind of clued myself
up to the eyeballs on Emmerdale.

2117
02:16:06,920 --> 02:16:10,360
So I could have talked all about
how much I like Emmerdale, a lot

2118
02:16:10,360 --> 02:16:12,480
of different characters and the 
storylines. 

2119
02:16:12,480 --> 02:16:15,880
But no, I knew diddly squat. 
I just prepped the character for

2120
02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:17,920
I'm going in. 
This is all about the character 

2121
02:16:17,920 --> 02:16:21,320
I'm going into play, kind of 
like a DJ or something. 

2122
02:16:21,600 --> 02:16:27,040
But yeah, I was meant to tell 
you one, but yeah, I had so many

2123
02:16:27,040 --> 02:16:28,400
castings. 
That's hilarious. 

2124
02:16:28,760 --> 02:16:30,200
We've just got to the point you 
like. 

2125
02:16:31,200 --> 02:16:37,840
Yeah, just on a conveyor almost.
So there you go. 

2126
02:16:38,240 --> 02:16:39,000
There you go. 
Sorry. 

2127
02:16:40,879 --> 02:16:42,360
The final question, yeah, but 
wait if. 

2128
02:16:42,680 --> 02:16:51,280
You've made it this far. 
Thank you, dedication is 

2129
02:16:51,320 --> 02:16:56,879
appreciated. 
You know what, I'm sure I hope 

2130
02:16:56,879 --> 02:16:58,959
the listeners have enjoyed it as
much as me. 

2131
02:16:58,959 --> 02:17:02,280
Can I have it recording it 
because what an episode this 

2132
02:17:02,280 --> 02:17:05,719
says it's been so good. 
Eyes we've had. 

2133
02:17:05,719 --> 02:17:09,920
Lows we've had. 
Tears about boredom without 

2134
02:17:12,360 --> 02:17:14,680
about tea break in this. 
I mean, this is going against 

2135
02:17:15,000 --> 02:17:17,280
all EU. 
Well, no part of the EU are we 

2136
02:17:17,280 --> 02:17:20,160
but all against kind of health 
and safety work regulations. 

2137
02:17:20,160 --> 02:17:25,840
A tea break comes at the start. 
I know, but you seem like I've 

2138
02:17:25,840 --> 02:17:29,400
got yeah, you see, Yeah, I've 
got ace of spades. 

2139
02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:31,840
But it does say yeah. 
Are we allowed to swear on this 

2140
02:17:31,840 --> 02:17:33,719
podcast? 
Yeah, you can swear. 

2141
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:38,360
On anyone it does say fucking 
ace mug and my cup. 

2142
02:17:40,559 --> 02:17:43,400
Anyway, sorry, last question. 
Last question. 

2143
02:17:44,520 --> 02:17:50,120
It's so serious as well. 
It's so serious and 

2144
02:17:50,120 --> 02:17:56,200
philosophical and ending ending 
the podcast on a philosophical 

2145
02:17:56,200 --> 02:18:03,240
note. 
Sensible face and I'm not 

2146
02:18:03,320 --> 02:18:10,280
acting. 
What would you say to runners 

2147
02:18:10,520 --> 02:18:12,920
who doubt themselves more than 
they should? 

2148
02:18:12,920 --> 02:18:16,440
It's. 
A great question, isn't it? 

2149
02:18:17,120 --> 02:18:21,200
And I think it's one we can. 
We've all experienced if we're 

2150
02:18:21,200 --> 02:18:27,000
really honest. 
And as a coach it's something 

2151
02:18:27,600 --> 02:18:32,959
which I have to work with. 
Yeah, almost all the athletes at

2152
02:18:32,959 --> 02:18:35,840
some point in their running 
career or running journey. 

2153
02:18:38,360 --> 02:18:42,160
And and again, trying to 
distillate into such a short 

2154
02:18:42,200 --> 02:18:45,760
easy answer isn't really doing 
the question justice as well 

2155
02:18:45,760 --> 02:18:49,840
because there's so many 
circumstances, contexts that 

2156
02:18:49,840 --> 02:18:55,600
that come into play. 
And you know, and also 

2157
02:18:55,600 --> 02:19:02,240
recognising that, you know, 
doubt isn't, isn't a flaw, you 

2158
02:19:02,240 --> 02:19:05,719
know, it's something that to be 
kind of listened to and to 

2159
02:19:05,719 --> 02:19:10,680
understand. 
So, you know, don't, don't be 

2160
02:19:10,680 --> 02:19:16,480
afraid if there is that, that 
doubt there and kind of maybe 

2161
02:19:16,480 --> 02:19:19,360
lean into it, kind of learn 
where it's coming from. 

2162
02:19:19,760 --> 02:19:24,080
OK, What, what's the, the 
genesis of, of this doubt? 

2163
02:19:24,080 --> 02:19:26,600
And, and is it, is it worthy? 
And sometimes that doubt is 

2164
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:28,559
there because of uncertainty, 
because of the unknown. 

2165
02:19:30,760 --> 02:19:35,280
And I think that's when we're 
planning and being organised, 

2166
02:19:35,480 --> 02:19:38,440
controlling the things you can 
control helps. 

2167
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:42,080
So that that's, that's one thing
to, to be mindful. 

2168
02:19:42,680 --> 02:19:48,000
And, and then it's also kind of 
working on that, that self 

2169
02:19:48,480 --> 02:19:50,760
belief. 
So setting up some process 

2170
02:19:50,760 --> 02:19:56,280
goals, again, the things we can 
control, we're working on the 

2171
02:19:56,280 --> 02:20:03,800
areas, yeah, which we we can. 
Deal with and letting go things 

2172
02:20:03,800 --> 02:20:05,520
we can't. 
So certain things in a race 

2173
02:20:05,520 --> 02:20:07,720
which we have no control over 
how we're actually going to 

2174
02:20:07,720 --> 02:20:09,280
feel, how we're actually going 
to finish. 

2175
02:20:10,240 --> 02:20:14,720
So worrying about those or doubt
isn't is nothing you can deal. 

2176
02:20:14,760 --> 02:20:18,000
You deal with that. 
So you have to methodology just 

2177
02:20:18,000 --> 02:20:21,440
let that go. 
The other thing I sometimes get 

2178
02:20:21,440 --> 02:20:27,800
my athletes to do when going up 
to a key race is to look at 

2179
02:20:27,800 --> 02:20:30,800
their training they've been 
doing up to the event and 

2180
02:20:30,800 --> 02:20:37,920
highlight three runs of sessions
that went really well that that 

2181
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:42,800
really give them, you know, 
concrete evidence of how well 

2182
02:20:42,880 --> 02:20:46,080
that training has gone. 
And it might be the run where 

2183
02:20:46,080 --> 02:20:49,880
they made a really kind of smart
decision or it might be 1 where 

2184
02:20:50,280 --> 02:20:52,280
that comes to them. 
It really showed them that it's 

2185
02:20:52,280 --> 02:20:54,600
going in the right direction or 
they're really near their 

2186
02:20:54,600 --> 02:20:59,040
fuelling. 
But by choosing O3, it can kind 

2187
02:20:59,040 --> 02:21:04,160
of just give you that right? 
Yeah, I can clearly see how well

2188
02:21:04,160 --> 02:21:08,480
the training has been going. 
So kind of that that's one of 

2189
02:21:08,480 --> 02:21:13,560
the tools that I tend to use 
kind of with with my athletes 

2190
02:21:13,560 --> 02:21:17,840
when they're in that kind of 
place of of self doubt. 

2191
02:21:18,840 --> 02:21:23,400
And it's amazing how powerful 
athletes and will feedback on 

2192
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:25,640
that when they're them 
performing on the race. 

2193
02:21:26,400 --> 02:21:29,200
And then the final thing is, as 
as well as this, you know, 

2194
02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:36,120
starting to doubt themselves is 
trying to to not put too much 

2195
02:21:36,120 --> 02:21:38,720
emphasis on the importance of 
it, But it's about having fun. 

2196
02:21:40,360 --> 02:21:45,120
And and if we're having fun, 
then that should like be taken 

2197
02:21:45,120 --> 02:21:47,960
away, not, you know, suffering 
and stuff like that, then that 

2198
02:21:48,000 --> 02:21:52,600
that that should be should 
hopefully kind of be encouraged 

2199
02:21:52,600 --> 02:21:55,960
that we're going to be doing, I 
think, which is kind of 

2200
02:21:55,960 --> 02:21:58,840
enjoyable. 
And that should motivate us to 

2201
02:21:59,200 --> 02:22:01,480
kind of to rise over that that 
doubt. 

2202
02:22:01,480 --> 02:22:06,920
But yeah, it's it's interesting 
one. 

2203
02:22:06,920 --> 02:22:11,680
And then last year I came across
this quote, which I used a lot 

2204
02:22:11,680 --> 02:22:16,560
now of athletes. 
And that is this is probably a 

2205
02:22:17,400 --> 02:22:22,000
timely way of, of ending the, 
the podcast in, in some respects

2206
02:22:22,400 --> 02:22:27,600
in that app, being ready isn't a
feeling. 

2207
02:22:29,320 --> 02:22:33,880
Being ready is a decision. 
And that you have to make that 

2208
02:22:34,000 --> 02:22:38,640
that decision ultimately. 
And so if you're kind of not 

2209
02:22:38,640 --> 02:22:41,720
feeling ready or you've got that
doubt, actually, you've got to 

2210
02:22:41,800 --> 02:22:46,040
switch that round and go, you 
know, I'm ready in, you know, 

2211
02:22:46,040 --> 02:22:47,480
training there. 
I've had hiccups. 

2212
02:22:47,480 --> 02:22:49,120
They may have been blips along 
the way. 

2213
02:22:49,800 --> 02:22:50,840
That's OK. 
It's rest. 

2214
02:22:50,840 --> 02:22:55,040
It's important. 
No training block is ever kind 

2215
02:22:55,040 --> 02:23:02,120
of 100% smooth. 
But yeah, that would be kind of 

2216
02:23:02,120 --> 02:23:05,560
my, it's difficult to distill it
in such a short answer. 

2217
02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:07,520
You can almost a whole 2 hours, 
3 hours on that. 

2218
02:23:08,280 --> 02:23:13,400
Can you really? 
But that would be my hair. 

2219
02:23:14,960 --> 02:23:17,560
Don't look for a feeling. 
Have that. 

2220
02:23:17,800 --> 02:23:21,480
Have that decision that you are 
ready and that you're worthy to 

2221
02:23:21,480 --> 02:23:27,520
be there as well. 
Well, Marcus, we, we might not 

2222
02:23:27,520 --> 02:23:31,800
be in the EU anymore, 
unfortunately, but we, we do 

2223
02:23:31,800 --> 02:23:36,000
have to stick to the European 
Human Rights Convention and we 

2224
02:23:36,000 --> 02:23:38,760
have to let you get a break. 
We have to let these poor 

2225
02:23:38,760 --> 02:23:41,400
listeners go, don't we? 
We've got to let them be 

2226
02:23:41,400 --> 02:23:45,120
released and disconnect from 
their headphones. 

2227
02:23:46,320 --> 02:23:49,680
Your. 
Teachings was if you're not 

2228
02:23:49,680 --> 02:23:54,120
having fun, why you're doing it 
and we we can we kept this going

2229
02:23:54,120 --> 02:23:57,080
because we were having fun. 
You apologized. 

2230
02:23:57,400 --> 02:24:01,120
There is no apology needed. 
Hopefully everybody's enjoyed it

2231
02:24:01,120 --> 02:24:06,960
as much as we have and we're at 
we're at the end end of the 

2232
02:24:06,960 --> 02:24:09,880
race. 
So thank you again, Marcus. 

2233
02:24:10,240 --> 02:24:13,200
Thank you Nikki for being Nikki 
and it's goodbye from me. 

2234
02:24:13,720 --> 02:24:15,920
Thanks, Marcus. 
Thank you so much for having me.

2235
02:24:15,920 --> 02:24:18,800
I've really enjoyed it. 
It's yeah, it's been a wonderful

2236
02:24:18,800 --> 02:24:23,280
chat and good luck for both of 
you in your next ranges and 

2237
02:24:23,280 --> 02:24:25,360
adventures. 
And thank you to all those 

2238
02:24:25,360 --> 02:24:25,920
who've listened.