1 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:18,280 Hello and welcome. Today we are dancing with Amelia 2 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,640 Hawk. I always say this at the 3 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,640 beginning because it's called Peter Dance with. 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,400 So we're dancing with your thoughts and practice. 5 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:34,000 Amelia, we met a long time ago, I think you said when I got off 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,480 the train, like 10 years, but maybe more. 7 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,280 Yeah, yeah. And it's been, it's been perhaps 8 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:42,720 10 years since we last saw each other. 9 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,040 I think so. And so you're meeting us 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,760 extremely fresh. It's like, what, half an hour 11 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:58,360 since we've reconnected? But I mean, you're an amazing 12 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,280 performance artist and I've in fact only ever truly seen your 13 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:08,280 work once, which was the first time I saw you, which was way 14 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,440 back. I don't want to say when because 15 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:16,160 I can't remember, but it was in De Montfort in Leicester It. 16 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:22,120 Could be nearly 20. Years ago. 17 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,600 But I think the one thing I want to sort of say, because I 18 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:32,040 connected so strongly with you as an artist and, and your work 19 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,440 and as a person, because it was this piece where if I remember 20 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,840 correctly, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, we were at a 21 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:48,840 sort of exam examination and we were asked as audience to 22 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,720 participate in doing this exam. And the exam was sort of absurd 23 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,120 and estranged and weird in some way. 24 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:03,120 And I think it it had such an impact on me. 25 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,320 And I remember telling you because it was a time, a 26 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:14,160 performative experience where I felt, well, I should give some 27 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,720 clarity. So I really struggled at school. 28 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:25,120 So these situations, these sort of performances of masking and 29 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,600 trying to look like you're normal, look like you're a 30 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,840 person in a situation where I felt like I was being tested 31 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:40,320 upon my validity as a human. And all my energy and effort was 32 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:46,000 going into just trying to hide and disappear and make it seem 33 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,600 as though I understand what's going on when I had no idea. 34 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:58,000 I, I was so confused and so lost and, and struggling to sort of 35 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,400 make sense of things. And this was not just the one 36 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,320 exam. This was the permanent state for 37 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,680 my childhood from a very young age. 38 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,120 And I think being in that situation and being put into a 39 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,600 examination place and being having it turned into this 40 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:30,600 magical, playful and changeable, manipulable space was so amazing 41 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,160 for me because in a way it gave me my personhood. 42 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:40,240 It made me feel like I can be a person and I could, I can be 43 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:45,800 weird and strange and not understand and I can, I can 44 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:54,400 exist as I am, perhaps even in these very strange spaces. 45 00:03:54,880 --> 00:04:00,560 And like since then, like, yeah, I, I, I know I've often thought 46 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,000 about what you do and how you work. 47 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,000 And, and in a way, I probably haven't wanted to touch it too 48 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,600 much because I think it's so magical what you gave me all 49 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,440 those years ago, because it truly has stayed with me as like 50 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:15,800 something really special and stuff. 51 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:17,760 This feels like a real confessional. 52 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,720 I don't think I've ever told you this, but it was, it's, it's 53 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,880 true. So, and I wanted to say that as 54 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,440 a way of describing your work, because your work is political, 55 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:34,600 it's artistic, it's participatory often, and there's 56 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,080 so many other words we can attach to it. 57 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:39,960 But for me, it doesn't really get to the heart of what it is 58 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,560 that you do. And I struggle to describe it. 59 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,840 But in thinking about how I would describe what you are and 60 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,960 what you do, I had to think about how actually that piece 61 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:56,560 changed me and affected me as a person and as an artist as well. 62 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,320 So that's how I would describe you. 63 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,160 But if you were meeting someone for the first time, how do you 64 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,520 introduce yourself? Like, how, how would you say, 65 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,360 give them a little bit of a entry into your world? 66 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,680 Yeah. Before I do that, I'm going to 67 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,880 say that I think that piece without me knowing it at that 68 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,520 moment in time, it was also the start of me discovering what it 69 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,800 means to be dyslexic as an adult, because I know what it is 70 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,680 to be dyslexic as a child. And for me, that's very much 71 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:34,040 about writing and tests and, you know, being maybe slightly 72 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,560 different to some of the other people in the class. 73 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,360 But as an adult who is nearly 40, I've done a lot of learning 74 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,400 about what dyslexia is. So I've worked in institutions 75 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,440 where I've had to like, know the names of artists and curators, 76 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,160 and I just can't recall that information. 77 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,640 It just doesn't exist in my head. 78 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:53,640 And I've really struggled with that. 79 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,200 But I haven't known why. I've just really masked that. 80 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,680 And it's only taken till I'm nearly 40 to understand that 81 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,880 there's so much more about dyslexia to do with memory, to 82 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,040 do with language recall, just generally. 83 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,720 Yeah, I do feel a bit emotional about it, that it's taken me 84 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,040 this long to really understand what it is to be dyslexic. 85 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:14,840 It's really hard. As a grown up. 86 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm the same, honestly. 87 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:21,240 And I think that's why I connected because I didn't say 88 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,240 it explicitly. I've never been even tested for 89 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,920 dyslexia. I had a sort of a traumatic 90 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,880 experience where my parents were told they couldn't, the school 91 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,560 couldn't afford a test. I would that I wouldn't amount 92 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,720 to enough to to, to deserve even knowing whether or not I was 93 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,560 dyslexic. And my parents didn't tell me 94 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,560 that, of course, because that's horrifying. 95 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,440 They told me that I'm just going to be slower and take more time. 96 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,920 And I remember just feeling like, oh, I'm going to die and 97 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,800 not have had lived as much as everyone else. 98 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,560 And it's such a, it just has such a weight and it's very hard 99 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,160 to fully appreciate because dyslexia is sort of considered 100 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,680 like this sort of, oh, yeah, many people have dyslexia and 101 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,480 it's fine and stuff. But the stigma and the, the, the 102 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,840 fitting in and the masking and stuff, it's real one. 103 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,120 It hurts. And it's, it's, yeah. 104 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,520 And it's, it takes a long time to unpack. 105 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,320 And I'm very privileged, I think, to be able to talk about 106 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,400 it and to be where I am. But it doesn't change what had 107 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:27,200 happened. Yeah. 108 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,360 Yeah. So thank you for. 109 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,960 Well, thanks for this conversation as well, but 110 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,840 together actually a question like suppose these days I would 111 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,760 say was more of a socially engaged artist. 112 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,480 So I've found a real passion for working with people and I think 113 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,280 I probably always did have that, hence performance. 114 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,360 But now I've also trained in mental health a bit more. 115 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,080 I was a young carer for my mother who's got schizoaffective 116 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:57,640 disorders. So that's always been a part of 117 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,760 my life, but at some point I decided to put them together 118 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,240 more literally. So I do a lot of general work in 119 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,520 community and with people, but my practice is also, I describe 120 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,040 it as a way of having conversations and holding space. 121 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,040 So that if you ask me what my practice is, that's what it is. 122 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,440 So anything else that comes out of it is about conversation and 123 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,000 helping space. So it might be I've set up like 124 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,440 an emotional coffee van where you can go and order a coffee to 125 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,720 match your mood. But really that's a chance for 126 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:26,840 you to have a conversation about. 127 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,760 Yeah. What's an emotional coffee? 128 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,960 Yeah. Why am I ordering this? 129 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,480 Yeah, yeah. So it's just to have those 130 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,960 conversations. That's what it is. 131 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:40,960 No, it's great. I it's just, I'm so inspired by 132 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:46,880 how you're able to articulate where you work and so on because 133 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,520 I think I almost get, what do you call it? 134 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,960 It's sort of trapped by dance. Dance does a lot of work for me 135 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,120 in articulating what I do and want to do and where I find my 136 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,640 interest. But at the same time, it can be 137 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,720 also limiting because it doesn't quite describe where where I'm 138 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,280 going. And you do it so well. 139 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,680 It's really a pleasure to hear. So thank you. 140 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:19,440 OK, so we are and a rock. The brim and rocks. 141 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:20,800 Yeah. North Yorkshire. 142 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,280 It kind of feels slightly like the middle of nowhere. 143 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,080 Yeah. But I said to you when we were 144 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,720 planning this, didn't I? Can we find the middle of 145 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,120 nowhere? And then I've done a lot of 146 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,480 thinking about the middle of nowhere. 147 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,400 Oh, nice. The middle of nowhere is always 148 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,840 the middle of somewhere. You can't ever be in the middle 149 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,440 of nowhere. So maybe it's more about 150 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,400 escapism and that feeling of of being slightly lost. 151 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,760 Or maybe there's something quite exciting about feeling lost. 152 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:45,160 For me anyway. Yeah. 153 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,160 And I think that is just escapism from life, you know, 154 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,960 when it gets tricky. I've always imagined being in 155 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,320 the middle of nowhere, which obviously is somewhere, but 156 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,360 really it's a vastness of empty space, which actually we don't 157 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,280 have today. It's really beautiful and full 158 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,160 of rocks, yes. Yeah, yeah. 159 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,800 And we're in the car park and there are people sort of, sort 160 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:10,480 of coalescing also maybe desiring some sense of being in 161 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,160 nowhere, being in the middle of nowhere. 162 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,480 I love that it's such a British saying that I've never fully. 163 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,480 Yeah, like, heard the articulation of it. 164 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,680 Yeah. Now you say it, that exactly 165 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:25,720 where is the middle of nowhere, The middle of somewhere? 166 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:26,960 Surely it just. Doesn't exist. 167 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,320 Does. It OK, but could you maybe give 168 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,920 us a, a taste or some, some sort of leading into like what what 169 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,960 we might experience and might do? 170 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,600 So a couple of years ago, maybe. No, one year ago. 171 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,120 Let's not give it too much time. I trained in forest therapy and 172 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,960 for me it was a period of healing and it was also a period 173 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,800 of escapism. So lots of things coming 174 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,480 together at 1 moment in time. I just had this real pool to 175 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,480 train in forest therapy and be outside. 176 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,120 So that's, so we're going to experience that today and really 177 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,560 the nuts and bolts of forest therapy about slowing down in 178 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:09,840 nature and being with yourself, being quite present for 179 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,720 yourself, but also trying to switch off all that chatter in 180 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,200 your brain. That capitalism was just put in 181 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,560 our frames, hasn't it, to make us work fast walk from A to B 182 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:22,080 without noticing what's in between. 183 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,560 I'm going to really try and turn that off and slow down and just 184 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:29,000 be present. That's what we're going to try 185 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,320 and do, and that's through our senses, and it's through being 186 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,920 in a green space. And it could be a really small 187 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,480 green space. So if someone wants to do it at 188 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,720 home and they've got a little bit of space outside, or they've 189 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,200 got a park nearby, or they've just got a pot of tomatoes 190 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,120 growing on their window shelf, like no matter how small the 191 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,400 green space, you can do something. 192 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:47,920 Yeah. Yeah. 193 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:51,560 So it doesn't have to be this very impressive rock formation 194 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:55,440 that we're visiting today. It doesn't have to be a sort of 195 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,160 iconic middle of nowhere. Can be in anywhere. 196 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:00,800 Middle of somewhere. Yeah, yeah. 197 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,360 That's nice. Great. 198 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,160 So what did you call it? Forestry. 199 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,400 So I trained in forest therapy. Forest Therapy. 200 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:14,440 Other people may call it forest bathing and it's traditional 201 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,840 name is Shinwinyoku because it comes from Japan from the 1980s. 202 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:25,520 And in the 1980's the Japanese government and scientists and a 203 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,320 whole lot of different people realised that their population 204 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,400 was becoming more urbanised and having more urbanised health 205 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:37,440 problems, particularly anxiety, heart related problems, things 206 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,280 that we see a lot in UK, Sweden, common, you know, built up areas 207 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,040 in the world. And they thought about how to 208 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,240 change that and wanted to connect the urbanised population 209 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,560 with green spaces again and begin looking at the scientific 210 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:55,920 benefits and the health benefits of doing so. 211 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,680 And so there is now research behind why and how it's done. 212 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,240 I think one of the most interesting things for me is 213 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,120 trees release something called fighting sites into the air, 214 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,360 which is their way of communicating to another tree. 215 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,280 It might be about danger or just to it's more often something 216 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,760 like that. So it's something that we can't 217 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:23,000 see, that we then breathe in and it helps us like, destress, it 218 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,080 helps our immune system. So actually we're just being 219 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,920 around trees. We're just having those positive 220 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,680 benefits straight away. And that's scientific, 221 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,720 scientifically proven stuff, which is exciting, yeah. 222 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,600 And yeah, so that was going to be my question. 223 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,200 But you saw that like because you were speaking about green 224 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,240 space and and it's called forest. 225 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:51,920 So it's not, it's not also about only meeting with a forest. 226 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,760 It's it's more broad than that, in a way. 227 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,320 It is, yeah. And I would say with it you can 228 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,200 adapt it to what fits you. So I I trained as a forest 229 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,800 therapist, but actually I use it a much more fleetingly within 230 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,000 community practice. So it might be that I borrow 231 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,560 some elements here and there and we do a bit of that. 232 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,920 And so we might slow down and lie under the trees and watch 233 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,200 the movement, for example. But that might be the only 234 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,720 forest therapy element we do within that session. 235 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,360 The rest of it might be creative drawing or something in 236 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:27,480 response. So today we're going to go quite 237 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,480 straightforward therapy, but but not too straight. 238 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,240 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. 239 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,760 No, it's great. I think I think it's really 240 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,360 important to just to meet you where you are. 241 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,160 And this is, this sounds about right. 242 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,240 And I think we'll unpack a lot of how it connects with what 243 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,920 you've previously been doing, been doing and what you're doing 244 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,480 at the moment and stuff later in our reflections. 245 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:56,080 We don't need to articulate that as a a thing now it's I'm sure 246 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,240 it will emerge or maybe not and that will be an interesting. 247 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,040 Thing, yeah. Great. 248 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,280 So let's pause and we'll come back in a few. 249 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,160 Well, in an hour or so. Yeah. 250 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,560 I was going to say a few hours. And I was like, it's not that 251 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,800 long. And it's not just a few minutes, 252 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,200 but yeah, in an hour or so. Great. 253 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:16,920 Thank you, Amelia. See you in a minute. 254 00:15:28,730 --> 00:15:34,850 So we're back, and I changed my voice as if we're not going to 255 00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:40,280 have a conversation. This is my podcast voice, but we 256 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,920 were just talking of course, but I thought we we can talk a bit 257 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:53,000 about what happened. And it seems already the, the, 258 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,960 the forest therapy and the way you're leading it and working 259 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:03,720 with it, it has conversation sort of entwined. 260 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:10,200 And you spoke a bit about how conversation is a material maybe 261 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,280 or part of your practice. So I was curious, maybe you 262 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:19,520 could speak to that. Yeah, how how conversation was 263 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,920 for you today, maybe in if it links at all or not. 264 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,120 Yeah, that is interesting. So I think I think of forest 265 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,120 therapy is a non conversational practice as. 266 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,720 Well, in comparison maybe to your artistic practice. 267 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,440 Yeah, I think so, yeah. So I think it does sit alongside 268 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,400 rather than it is my practice of that process and elements of it 269 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,560 come out into different worker projects, but it's not the 270 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,440 practice itself, I suppose. That being said, I think the 271 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,200 conversation happened afterwards, doesn't it? 272 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,040 Yeah, today, today, yes. Yeah, I wanted to say this. 273 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,600 Yeah. But I don't. 274 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,680 It couldn't have happened in between. 275 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,920 So I guess to explain, there's the rhythm. 276 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,920 So there's an invitation, we do an activity, invitation, 277 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,920 activity, invitation, ending activity, and then we just end 278 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,920 up chatting. Yeah, on a very beautiful walk. 279 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:22,920 Yeah, we did. And it was, it was really 280 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,200 beautiful. And yeah, so, so to go into a 281 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,880 bit more detail, first we we were with motion, was it? 282 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,680 And then we just shared a little bit how that felt to be with 283 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,480 motion, the motion of the the sky of the the world. 284 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,000 You felt a. Bit nauseous, didn't you? 285 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,320 Well, yeah, yeah, I noticed that, you know, every, 286 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:50,280 everything is in motion. I think so often with these 287 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,720 things that, you know, it's the the most obvious, obvious of 288 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,680 things. But they they're, they're 289 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,440 spending time with them really provide something very 290 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,760 enriching. And so once I recognized that 291 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:09,200 everything was moving, I focused on a rock, which was I assumed 292 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,640 would be more still. And then I noticed how much I 293 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,440 was moving. So this is inescapability. 294 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:24,880 And I also started to maybe conceptualize or think about 295 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,360 imagine. We were talking about how the 296 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:32,440 imagination played in how sound was also moving all around me 297 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,600 and such. AI wouldn't say noisy place, but 298 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,000 it had plenty of richness in terms of sound. 299 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,680 I think you imagine you go to this middle of another way that 300 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:46,840 doesn't exist. Yeah. 301 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,120 And it's empty. And that's just not true, is it? 302 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:53,960 I suppose. And the sound is everywhere. 303 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,480 There's so many birds, the wind is so noisy there, there's sound 304 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:00,760 everywhere. And I think once you start 305 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,640 turning into it, it, it's really interesting to notice the many 306 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,640 different layers of that sound. And yeah, and how our sound is 307 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,960 playing out into that, whether it's talking or not. 308 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,960 And it's just breathing or, you know, the we've got quite noisy 309 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:15,680 clothes on. Haven't. 310 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:21,320 We, yeah, you probably hear us in the car so adjusting things, 311 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,120 but it, it really, it, it brings, it was very clear how I 312 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:33,440 felt like I was becoming in, I was noticing my involvement with 313 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,680 the, the, the green space, with the, the nature, with the, the 314 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:45,960 world that we found ourselves in, which felt very important, I 315 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,600 think in terms of what we were doing today. 316 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,560 That dropping down in your body. Yeah, yeah, I think I also 317 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,600 noticed that. I think it takes a while to get 318 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,720 to that moment. I think during the first 319 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,640 invitation or even before that, when we're trying to engage our 320 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,200 senses through almost like a meditative practice. 321 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,600 I suppose that takes a little while to get into, especially if 322 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,200 you're less comfortable or familiar with that. 323 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,360 I've definitely had people in the past that are quite. 324 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,960 Turned off by that, yeah. And really struggled with it and 325 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,400 others that have embraced it very much. 326 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,760 But then you go into the what's in motion? 327 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,120 So we're moving quite slowly and walking, which is was about 10 328 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:34,400 minutes. So we're about 20 minutes in by 329 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,200 that point in time. It took me till the next 330 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,800 invitation, which was another 15 minutes, to feel that drop that 331 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,680 that chattered gone. I was at my own pace, didn't 332 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,720 really care if someone walked past me or not and I looked a 333 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,360 bit out of context. I was just present. 334 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,400 So it took probably took around half an hour to get to that 335 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,160 point for me. Yes, the next part we were with 336 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,320 the visuals, right? If I remember correctly was 337 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,440 visual textures. No, no, sorry. 338 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,480 That was the one after was textures, touching pictures. 339 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,440 And for me it was a strange place to land in a way because 340 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:20,720 I've been moving towards coming here all of yesterday and this 341 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,560 morning. So it's been a long journey. 342 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,360 And then we just meet and we're straight in the car and we're 343 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:32,560 driving out into the the middle of nowhere and, and then all of 344 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,800 a sudden, yeah, then I'm with my body and I've come all this way. 345 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,960 I've been on a journey. I've had this intention to sort 346 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:47,120 of, yeah, to to meet with myself and that was that was really 347 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,080 powerful. We're speaking about that at the 348 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:57,120 end a little bit, the sense of yeah, how how to arrive, how 349 00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:01,920 that intentionality of the forest therapy is sort of acting 350 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:10,320 with what are quite human. That's sort of just very there 351 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:16,320 and things in our nature, in our presence. 352 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,760 And what I really appreciated was, yeah, today we've made a 353 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,320 big effort. You researched this location. 354 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,000 You even came here to scout it a little bit with your kids and, 355 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,720 and I, I've been organizing this, you know, trying to 356 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,160 arrange a time and things and then the travel and everything. 357 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,240 And and yet you could do this with a a pot plant. 358 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,640 Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah. 359 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,840 And so the the sort of how the invitation actually works, how 360 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,120 the invitation, the intention sort of provides that space is 361 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:53,040 really beautiful. It's. 362 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,200 Making the space for you, which I just start thinking our busy 363 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,120 lives, whether they're busy through work or otherwise, that 364 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,560 that space isn't made. Yeah, yeah. 365 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:10,960 You brought it up though at work, so maybe we can talk about 366 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,000 that a little bit because the, the, I was thinking you were 367 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,200 speaking about capitalism before. 368 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,000 I was thinking about like, I, I think this is on my mind 369 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,520 actually quite a bit at the moment is like consumerism, how 370 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,760 to have access to certain sensations or spaces, public 371 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,560 spaces. It, it's connected to a form of 372 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:42,240 consumption. And I feel like we're almost 373 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:49,000 policing ourselves in a way to expect that we can, we're only 374 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,720 valid in a certain space or in a certain activity if we're 375 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,760 consuming it, if we're so. And you mentioned in a way that 376 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:02,000 we have a bit more permission because we're working as well. 377 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:11,120 And it's, it's a really tricky, tricky thing to find motivations 378 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,760 to take care of oneself outside of that mechanism. 379 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,040 Because especially for me, I was thinking about, you know, buying 380 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,160 a coffee sort of like this luxury. 381 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,320 And I'm always questioning the efficacy of, of, of the coffee 382 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,760 itself. And then I'm thinking about just 383 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,200 the economic and financial burden of, oh, is this, is this 384 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,120 value for money? And then the whole time I'm 385 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:42,400 consuming it, I'm barely managing to to drop and actually 386 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800 be with the sensation and the relaxation that was probably 387 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,280 trying to get through that consumption through that. 388 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,040 Yeah, consumerism that I was sort of participating in. 389 00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,880 I had a question at the end of that long rant and now it's sort 390 00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:03,480 of disappearing but around. Permission it felt like. 391 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,360 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Yeah. 392 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:11,160 How do we, how do we, Yeah, give, give, give motivation and 393 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,680 permission to ourselves? And how has that been for you 394 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,560 and this practice like how are you navigating those tensions? 395 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,920 I suppose, yeah. I, I think when I was training, 396 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,400 I very intentionally made the space for it. 397 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,240 So one of the practices that you do is to have a sit mat which 398 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,480 you've used today and find your sit spot, which can be anywhere. 399 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,880 So if you struggle to go outside, then your sit spot 400 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,080 might be a window that can look onto some green space. 401 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,480 Or if you can't walk very far, you might have access to a small 402 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,600 yard or you might have the garden space. 403 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,840 It could be anything. So it could be really close, but 404 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,200 it could also be a park that you go to that's perhaps on your way 405 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,200 to somewhere that you intentionally now stop within. 406 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,760 And the idea is that every day, not necessary for that long. 407 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,600 It could be 5 minutes, but it'd be better if it's more like 20 408 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,400 or so and you return to that same spot and you're just 409 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,240 present there. Oh wow. 410 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,600 And that's it. And you you actually commit to a 411 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,560 specific place. That's the theory. 412 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,760 Yeah, right. I I have to confess that I 413 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,800 really, really struggled with it at first. 414 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,520 I tried sitting outside near my house and like there was traffic 415 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,640 and things like getting really frustrated with it. 416 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,960 And I brought it to the session. She was like, well, I think 417 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,120 you're focusing on the wrong path. 418 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,440 Like it's you need to accept that the traffic is there before 419 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,040 you can get to the other. So I had tried and tried and 420 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:47,680 moved the spot many, many times, but and did eventually manage to 421 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,920 do it. I feel contentment with that. 422 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,480 But I also try and now just slow down in general because I think 423 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,720 it's really about the slowing down of being present and 424 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:01,840 they're not always having to have that end point. 425 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,480 You're going for a walk to get somewhere, to take someone 426 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,720 somewhere to walk a dog, whatever it might be. 427 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,880 But actually you can just go and sit. 428 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,120 That's free. Yes, yeah, yeah. 429 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:15,720 And it's exactly. Not necessarily that much of 430 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,600 your time on a day, not necessarily that far, but it's 431 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,680 just giving yourself permission to do that. 432 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,000 And to remember that we have those things like close by. 433 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,200 I think that's like one of the, the, the struggles. 434 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,040 And I think I have a busy mind. I think like, and I wonder 435 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,000 because I had a similar sensation today when I found my, 436 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,520 I went towards some amazing rocks and, and then there was a 437 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,720 lot of people coming to see the rocks and climb the rocks. 438 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,000 And they were, they were talking a lot about their experience and 439 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,360 stuff. And I had to think, do we need 440 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:56,720 to, do we need to talk about them all the time? 441 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,200 But of course, that's what they're there for. 442 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,320 And, and I, I found myself getting frustrated with exactly 443 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,720 that. And so I sort of recognise that 444 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,200 desire to the, the internal monologue to sort of move on and 445 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,480 find something different. And yeah, I think, I think 446 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,800 you're, you're hitting on something that lives in me a lot 447 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,520 is like this, this sort of busy mind and analysing everything, 448 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,800 thinking over everything, doubting everything, questioning 449 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,200 everything. And we were talking about 450 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,520 dyslexia at the beginning of the thing. 451 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,400 And that's something that I think has I've been grappling 452 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,800 with recently is the like allowing myself the permission 453 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,720 to ask questions and to, to to not understand and to feel a 454 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:55,440 little bit lost. And has has often been denied. 455 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,960 I think there's been a sense of like you're, you're too slow, 456 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,880 you're not getting it, You're not you're not permitted within 457 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,600 the space because you're not quick enough to understand. 458 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,880 And so that those questions have become a sort of, yeah, very 459 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,240 difficult. It's very it's become very hard 460 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,120 to sort of like let the questions go and just settle in. 461 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:28,000 And, and yet spaces like this, they, when they work, it's for 462 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:34,000 me, it has to do with I'm allowing myself to not worry 463 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,440 about if I'm doing it right or not. 464 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:46,000 If I have understood the the place a little bit and feel OK 465 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,920 that I'm not going to get judged and I'm not going to be get put 466 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,840 in a place where I start to feel like I'm less of a person in 467 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,200 some way. Yeah. 468 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,040 So that, that was really interesting. 469 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,440 But then the the next part after that. 470 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,040 Maybe I shouldn't just run on no. 471 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,680 No, it's fine. I think it's interesting to see 472 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,960 how our brains work. Isn't it? 473 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,400 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 474 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,240 I think we have similar wiring as well. 475 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,920 I'm very good at going on a whole tangent and I'm like, I do 476 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,640 not know where I started. Yes, yes, I don't like. 477 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,040 Yeah. So if there's. 478 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,920 Two of us together. This could be an interesting 479 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,960 conversation. Well, I was going to pull it 480 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,120 back. We have our little like if we go 481 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,200 through what we did. So we were with the, the, the 482 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,880 visuals and then we came back and we had a small talk about 483 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,120 that and then we went away and we was with the, the, the touch 484 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:47,440 of the textures. Yeah. 485 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,440 Which was #2 yeah. And for me, this was so nice to 486 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:58,200 feel, to feel my back against things. 487 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:04,920 This was a really a real joy. And it's I'm a dancer. 488 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:10,400 I use my back a lot. And yet still to be given the 489 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:18,480 invitation and the space and the intention to, to go there, It's 490 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,560 really nice, really special. I was thinking we, we were 491 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:28,080 talking about how like sometimes if I'm waiting for a train or 492 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,920 something, I have this opportunity to, to drop. 493 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,000 And usually I'll get this sort of like, oh, I have time. 494 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,720 So then I'll try to be productive and I'll pick up my 495 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,760 phone to do something or to entertain myself or to learn 496 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,920 something or to consume some content or something that I feel 497 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:55,480 like I should keep up with. And what was nice is I noticed 498 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,800 that happening a little bit here where that moment came when I 499 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,440 was like, oh, I would normally then try to make this moment 500 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,360 productive that I sort of moved away and I had this sort of safe 501 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920 space around that protecting that a little bit. 502 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,760 Which I think can be quite hard to do when that's just not 503 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,840 currently what we're wired to do in life. 504 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,400 Is it? I had a similar sensation with 505 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,320 with my back actually in that final invitation because you've 506 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,560 started off on on a stone lying down, which was exactly what my 507 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,600 instinct was going to, but I couldn't find the perfect spot. 508 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:39,600 And then I noticed how free up this up another stone sort of 509 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,280 halfway a what looked like a seat to me. 510 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,600 And I thought, well, I think my body can fit in there. 511 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,240 And it did fit so perfectly. There was almost a hollow of the 512 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,600 stone which was the same size as my bum. 513 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,280 And then I rested back slightly. It was almost like I was being 514 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,520 in an armchair. It was so perfect. 515 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,800 And I didn't want my eyes open. I just closed them. 516 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,120 And I wasn't asleep, but I was on the edge of that. 517 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,440 I was on such a state of deep relaxation that I was absolutely 518 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,360 content with where I was, even when the little girl was like, 519 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,480 oh, why is that person sat up there or, or whatever it might 520 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,800 be. I was absolutely fine with that. 521 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,560 And I could have, apart from the fact that we had to go back 522 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,040 because it was 20 minutes. I could have just stayed. 523 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,560 Yeah. And I probably would have fallen 524 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,560 asleep, I think, at that point. Yeah, Yeah. 525 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:35,120 But it's an interesting type of sort of because, you know, I go 526 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,200 to go for a walk in nature or go to the woods and stuff. 527 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,320 But having just a little bit like, rather than it being the 528 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,160 destination that it's a place that then I can go further is 529 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:56,960 already a sort of a huge change to the way I'm normally 530 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,800 approaching green spaces and trying to achieve those things 531 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:09,199 and get used to them and so on. And then, and then we did the 532 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,239 longer 1. So like you said, that was the 533 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,440 sort of last part. And it was, it was by that point 534 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,760 I was feeling sort of tingling in my legs. 535 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,560 So I really felt like I'd landed in a way. 536 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,280 It was really, yeah, quite special. 537 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:32,120 And we were talking a bit about it's called therapy, but you 538 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,960 were saying it's a little bit more therapeutic rather than. 539 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,960 Yeah, I think you asked a question that I asked myself, 540 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,600 which is why is it called therapy? 541 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,440 And I'm trying to Level 3 in counselling. 542 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,520 So that feels like a very protected space. 543 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,320 So as I told you, I asked someone who was more trained 544 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,239 than I was and she sort of unpacked it for me a little bit 545 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,640 and said it's OK. Some things are therapeutic 546 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,440 rather than therapy. And they may use a similar 547 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,080 terminology. But it, it isn't therapy. 548 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,680 And, you know, it isn't actually therapy. 549 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:06,640 It's therapeutic. And. 550 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,960 And that was OK for me. Yeah. 551 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,000 Because I do feel it's important that therapy is a space that is 552 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:18,400 regulated and safe, I suppose, whereas this is definitely not, 553 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,360 it's not an unsafe space at all. It's, it's just a different 554 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,960 space. It's it's more towards that 555 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,360 well-being side of things I suppose. 556 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,440 It's that looking after yourself through engaging with something 557 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,200 that isn't necessarily a talking thing, I suppose. 558 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:43,440 Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And on the like the you were 559 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,040 saying how the the last conversation we had was a little 560 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,360 bit more. So this is after we had tea, and 561 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,000 I suppose you don't always have tea. 562 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,040 You do, always. You do always have tea. 563 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:55,880 Have tea? Yeah. 564 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,160 OK, that's interesting because of course you have a tea 565 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,720 practice. Yes, that's true. 566 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,320 Yeah. And and so. 567 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,680 So it was just a coincidence or Yeah. 568 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,400 Yeah, no, it always, you always end with AT and it's an 569 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,760 opportunity for sharing and for things to come out. 570 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,440 And actually, I think that fits into holding space, which is 571 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,440 also, I'm quite interested in how we hold space for others. 572 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,200 And that's always about having a framework where there's a 573 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,480 beginning, middle and end. So you're very contained within 574 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,480 that. Because if I just said to you on 575 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,520 the last invitation, right, thanks, let's walk back to the 576 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,160 cab, you'd be now. Okay, I've finished a bit 577 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,760 quickly, but by having tea, you're still in that slow state 578 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,920 because you've just reached a state where you're probably 579 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,240 quite relaxed or you might have felt something different. 580 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,120 However you've approached it, if you just end abruptly, that 581 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,080 feels you either feel potentially cheated maybe or or 582 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,160 it's too abrupt or there's something missing. 583 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,600 So you need to have that slow return back to. 584 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,840 You need to have that slow return back to a slightly more 585 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,040 normal environment, whatever normal might be. 586 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:14,840 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and like in in the the tea 587 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,960 practice that you have the artistic work and I suppose you 588 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,840 have that as well. There's the the people coming up 589 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,520 to the stall or the stand. I I've never seen it, but I'm 590 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,560 imagining. The tea project was, I am 591 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,440 interested in hot drinks in general because I think they 592 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,840 hold space for conversation and for people exchanging. 593 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,200 It's it's sort of a social custom that we've got. 594 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,640 But I think that they do, they would do more than we realise 595 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,360 and it's an often space of exchange. 596 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,640 So I worked on a project that was to do with infant feeding. 597 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,280 That was the the invitation I was to explore that and I was 598 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,280 interested in how we are caring for the infants, but how we're 599 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,000 also caring for the caregivers too. 600 00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:05,000 Well, it's quite an exhausting, can be quite an exhausting 601 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,120 process of giving care so intently. 602 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,920 So wanted to frame that around a drink and exchange. 603 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:18,040 How might we use that humble cup of tea to do more than just be a 604 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,680 gift or a nutrients or a compensation giver? 605 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,240 Could we unpack that slightly? So we made teas exploring so 606 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:26,560 many different ingredients. He picked up an apricot earlier. 607 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,280 Yeah, we have an apricot tea. Yeah. 608 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,720 So there were child friendly ingredients and well, they were 609 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:34,360 all child friendly. To be fair, none of them were 610 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,240 caffeinated, but we had traditional ingredients such as 611 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,040 chamomile. But then we had the apricots 612 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,080 that were obviously quite popular with the younger people, 613 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,040 and people made their own combinations. 614 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,840 We made different recipes to see what people enjoyed but also 615 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,480 what nutrition we might get from them. 616 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,320 So apricot was there and because dried apricot in particular is 617 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,040 quite good for iron and particularly people of post 618 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,000 pregnancy might have post child birth might have lost eczema. 619 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:10,640 Blood also helps with tiredness and anemia and all these many 620 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,880 things. So we had apricot there very 621 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,440 intentionally and some other ingredients for those reasons 622 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,920 which might be mood boosting or whatever it might be. 623 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,520 So people were drawn to what they were drawn to, but there 624 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,560 was also some thinking about nutrition or benefits of the 625 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,280 body in some way. And then we developed 2 teeth. 626 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,280 So we had rest and play, which was for the children, and we had 627 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,880 relax and lactate, which was for the people that were lactating, 628 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:38,000 but anyone could drink either. It's amazing. 629 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,240 And because I think the the question that I'm really 630 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:45,480 interested in because you also have these practices in water, 631 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,760 like water starts to feel like a theme. 632 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,520 Actually, if I look at your website and your your work, 633 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,000 these conversations in water, it's such a simple and beautiful 634 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,160 idea. And I think one of my questions 635 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,280 is. Where do the ideas come from? 636 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:10,520 Like how? How do they sort of how do you 637 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,760 manifest? They seem to be very personal. 638 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,560 If if I may sort of like what's the source material I suppose? 639 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,400 Well, that's interesting. Yeah, I guess they they probably 640 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,160 are personal, but I probably don't know how to make work any 641 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,520 other way. Either no, of course. 642 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,120 Because I guess it's coming from my own perspective. 643 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,760 So although the tea project came out of the invitation to it with 644 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,280 infants, that's not unrelated because I have small children. 645 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,160 So the, the first water project came out of a, a project I was 646 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,200 doing with Spike Island in Bristol, where we would, I 647 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,080 proposed that we would look at how a space might care for us 648 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,320 and what we might need in that space if it was going to care 649 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,360 for us. And we were going to imagine 650 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,960 widely as possible what on earth we wanted in that space. 651 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:08,080 And we all, so there's a group of about five of us, we all put 652 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,280 water down and water might have been a shower, it might have 653 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,600 been a bath, it might have been a walk in the rain, could have 654 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,480 been all sorts of things because it was fantastical as well. 655 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,600 That was a hot tub, of course, you know, but everybody had put 656 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,600 water in some way and that I couldn't really get over. 657 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,600 And I'm still fascinated today as to why people put water down. 658 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,520 But it absolutely sparked the journey for that piece of work. 659 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,080 So then I went out and had conversations with different 660 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,280 people in different bodies of water to experience what that 661 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,520 was like and understand why other people were also drawn to 662 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,120 water as as a space that can hold space for you and can help 663 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,640 and heal and and support. And people had lots of different 664 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,040 reasons for wanting to be in water moments, peace and helping 665 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,520 with their physical body. Some people had like arthritis 666 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,760 and other physical needs. So it was, it had both a 667 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,640 physical and an emotional space for people and just to let go. 668 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,720 I, I do it myself, I stand in the shower and I stand in the 669 00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:10,400 shower for quite a long time sometimes just to let go. 670 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,640 And it's just a space that feels quite protective and quite 671 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,000 possible to just be within. And the same if I go to a 672 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,920 swimming pool secretly, I just want to float in the water, 673 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,120 which isn't really the dumb thing when you go swimming 674 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,200 lanes, but I would just happily just float and just exist like 675 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,480 that in the water. So, so that started that 676 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,520 interest in water and it's. Well, I mean, and also it's 677 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,760 forest bathing by another name. And of course, bathing is the, 678 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:48,440 this idea of and letting go and, and being in water and so and 679 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,280 dropping in. So it's sort of a great theme in 680 00:42:53,280 --> 00:43:02,520 the sort of beauty of it. And may I ask, so how, how often 681 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,600 are you doing this kind of practice now? 682 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,920 I think now forest therapy has more moved into community 683 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,480 workers and elements of it are coming out. 684 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,480 So I did a workshop series in the summer where we did quite a 685 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,400 few walks and within those walks we would pull out different 686 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,800 elements of of forest therapy. Whether it was lying under the 687 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,760 trees and looking at the movement in the trees and then 688 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,240 trying to draw that without without looking or whether it 689 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:31,400 was slowing down with micro, not microscopes, the other ones 690 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:33,240 magnifying. Glass. 691 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:38,000 Magnifying glass. Looking at the details and if 692 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,600 you ever looked at a seed through a magnifying gas, just a 693 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,040 standard flower seed, it can look quite alien, quite 694 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,720 different to how you imagine. So we were thinking about the 695 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:51,360 journey from seeds to trees and nature's kind of creeping in 696 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,640 everywhere, but just taking some of those practices and putting 697 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,760 them in other contexts to give other people the tools that they 698 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,640 could then use another time or slow down. 699 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,240 I think slowing down is probably 1 of the biggest important parts 700 00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:09,120 of the practice, being slow so that you can just haven't 701 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,760 experienced a time that's different. 702 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,480 Yeah, that fast-paced thing that we are all on. 703 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,880 Yeah, Treadmill. Yeah, yeah. 704 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:24,520 Super beautiful. I, I feel very, I mean, I still 705 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,480 feel quite wordless. That was the first reaction from 706 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:35,600 the first prompt I guess that you gave when we went out into 707 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:43,640 the into the well into the woods and with the rocks was was how. 708 00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:48,880 Yeah, I feel lost for words and it feels really important. 709 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:55,840 And apartment in fact. And we sort of can manage these 710 00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:01,680 things all the time and package them and put them into art 711 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:08,440 projects or into into a business model of some sort of things. 712 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,240 And they have all good intentions and everything. 713 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:22,560 But ultimately the thing itself is really precious and almost 714 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,000 sacred. So. 715 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,360 So I feel very blessed to have have this opportunity again, 716 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,480 like I'm using this is a podcast. 717 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,640 It has a commercial element to it. 718 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,440 It has a consumptive element. OK, I'm not funded and there's 719 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,600 no advertisement, at least not that I know of, none that I'm 720 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,920 putting into the into the podcast. 721 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:53,520 But yeah, it still has its attention. 722 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,760 It's drawn from it so that that we can still find ourselves in 723 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,040 these places. It's really precious because 724 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,560 this, it's a, it's a big question as well. 725 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:11,600 And I find it in my own work of hope, moving between wanting to 726 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:18,520 help and be active in community and political and at the same 727 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:26,680 time trying to make art and not have the art compromised by the 728 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:34,080 desire for activism and not have the activism and sort of, what's 729 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:42,440 the word, have it sort of being extracted from by the art as a 730 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,760 sort of extractive practice. Because that's creating of a 731 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,920 problematic dynamics in a community like situation. 732 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,680 But it's a, it's a balance like, and I wouldn't want to work 733 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:04,120 anywhere else either, Yeah. Yeah, it is finding a balance, 734 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,040 isn't it? But I think within all of that 735 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,520 juggle, you've got to make space for yourself. 736 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,120 Yeah. And maybe that's what this is. 737 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,600 Yes, yes, yeah, definitely, definitely. 738 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,760 We were talking about families earlier and I think amongst the 739 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:26,280 sort of complexity of being in this society and everything it 740 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:33,680 throws at us and literally hits US in the face and trying to 741 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,400 survive is actually not, not a bad motivation. 742 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,320 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely 743 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,000 in part why why I ended up here is that trying to survive and 744 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,640 heal a little bit, which is important. 745 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,000 Yeah, no, thank you for letting us in. 746 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:58,040 But I usually close if that's OK, unless there's something 747 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:04,640 burning to talk about by sort of inviting a little bit to say 748 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,200 like how people could get in touch with you and your work. 749 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,920 It's very simple really, because you have an amazing website. 750 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:14,880 What's? My kind. 751 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:21,280 Ofviewamelia-hawk.com. You answered the question, 752 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,440 didn't you? But maybe maybe if is, is the, 753 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,040 do you have anything coming up or anything that you would like 754 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,360 to sort of name explicitly? Or just is there an open 755 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,000 invitation for people who are interested in these kind of 756 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,560 things that are maybe living in this area or that have 757 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,520 opportunities to be in contact with where you are and where 758 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,640 you're working? There's nothing explicitly to 759 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,400 name. I think like any freelancer, 760 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:55,920 it's seasonal, should we say? So we're in a quiet patch at the 761 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,720 moment after coming out of a busy one. 762 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,600 Yeah, yeah. So I'm just going currently with 763 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,680 the flow and seeing where that river ends. 764 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,720 So watch this space. Watch this space. 765 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,760 You also are on Instagram of. Course, everyone is on 766 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,240 Instagram. Yeah, everyone. 767 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,880 Yeah, yeah, it's. Amelia under score. 768 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,520 Hawk under score. Yeah, because there's definitely 769 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,240 another another Amelia Hawk out there doing very different 770 00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:23,920 things. They don't know who they are 771 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,480 well. The Internet can lead you there. 772 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,000 But this is a pleasure to reconnect after such a long 773 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,560 time. Your, your work and your 774 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:39,680 influence on me is extremely important and valuable to me. 775 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,320 So I'm glad we can reconnect in this way. 776 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:50,360 And I hope it was nice to reimagine what you're doing and 777 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:56,160 where you're where you're at in this season and at this moment 778 00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:57,760 with me. So thank you SO. 779 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,600 Much thanks for coming. Yeah, great. 780 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,720 All right, goodbye.