Welcome to she persisted I'm your host Sadie Saxton a 19 year
old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of
Pennsylvania. She persisted is the Teen Mental
Health podcast made for teenagers by a team in each
episode. I'll bring you authentic
accessible and relatable conversations about every aspect
of mental Wellness. You can expect evidence-based,
Tina, proof resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT,
insights and education. In each piece of content, you
consume, she persisted Offers you a safe space to feel
validated and understood in your struggle.
While encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and
build your life worth living. So let's Dive In.
Hello, hello and welcome back to another episode.
I am running late for the airport as we are recording this
intro so this is going to be a short and sweet but today's
guests are the founders of the Therapy Group and host of the
shrink chicks podcast. You should check out both of
those amazing content. For both the Therapy Group is
located in Philadelphia. So if you are Philly located,
they have a therapy practice with tons of therapist.
You can work with so Link in the show notes but today's guests
are Emily be early. LM ft and Jennifer chicken.
LM ft. Together, they founded, both a
therapy group and host. The shrink tricks podcast, they
both still practices therapist. They have so much wisdom and
insight to share about the therapy World, their own
experiences sharing. What it's like from the other
perspective. So, this conversation is
hilarious. It's amazing.
I know you're going to gain so much Insight from it so while we
go to the airport, let's dive in.
Thank you guys so much for coming on.
She persisted, I'm so excited to have you on the show today.
Thank you so much because we love a filly babe.
We love you. I'm so excited.
As soon as you said Philly, we were it was it needed for about?
That was little, I'm from Philly.
Come on my body, I live. I'm at UPenn right.
But I will also say this listen like podcasting wasn't a thing.
We are in college but also City I would have been that's
probably for the best for us but also The fact that you're
sitting here doing this unbelievable thing to make it
accessible to destigmatize therapy.
Like we have to also start with like thanking you as well
because like this is why your generation is the best
generation in my opinion because you just need to do it so much
better. And I wish that we had people
when I was a freshman in college having horrific, part of the
reason we became therapist is because we had horrific
experiences in therapy and we're like, we could do this better
and for both of us, a lot of that had to do with college.
Okay. I'd love to dive.
Into that. Yeah, I think college is maybe
one of the roughest mental health times.
Yeah, it's bad tough. I've done a couple of episodes
recently and I think pain especially doesn't have the best
reputation with mental health and going into it.
Like I feel like my mental health has been good if not
better than it's been before and it's all about like the
different boundaries that I set up the different habits I put in
place that allowed me to do that but if you're going into college
with no experience of managing your mental health, Knowing what
to expect with the independence, not knowing what your priorities
are. It's super overwhelming and it's
like a Surefire way to struggle and feel very overwhelmed
because there's so much on your plate.
Absolutely. And just yeah, just the pressure
of college and then also the lack of resources, right?
How many people are waiting months on a waiting list, to get
to a caps program, the counseling program at their
school because they're simply just enough, not enough money
across the board, no matter what you're doing.
There's not enough money put into mental health and so you're
so Amazing, you can sit here and like, oh, here are a b and c all
the things that I did, most people would be, like, I
prepared for college by, like, buying this right stuff for my
dorm, which is so cool to, like, find the do also did that look
like, okay, how do I like mentally emotionally
psychologically, prepare myself for such a massive life
transition? Yeah, and I think some of that
too comes from the work that you do on yourself before.
You even get into college, right?
And right now, we're seeing such a huge Mental Health crisis with
adolescence, you know, we see it in our practice that are coming
in, there's and so adolescents are really struggling and so
you're, you know, the fact that you did so much work to to get
yourself to this point. Really speaks to that how you're
managing it in college. Yeah, it's funny.
Like what I was thinking about moving away and going across the
country. I was like bleep but I've done
this before, like I've lived in treatment like this is the
second time. Around the block, but that's not
the experience for so many teenagers and it's so
overwhelming. And so if I can like, take the
little bits and pieces that I learned and share, whatever was
helpful, I hope that someone will listen and be able to
implement these things because not enough people are talking
about it, it's not widely enough discussed.
And and some of these things are really simple.
It's like getting enough sleep. It's making sure that your basic
needs are met. It's having enough people in
your community that are checking in on you.
It's making sure you're feeling your emotions and not.
Seeing that and not overwhelming yourself with commitment.
So it's small things. You just have to be aware of and
make sure that you're prioritizing, so that you don't
become overwhelmed. Absolutely.
The basic things that we've. Yes, exactly.
So I would love to dive into like, you guys kind of touched
on why you became therapist and then, that background of your
experience is in therapy because I think it'll also be helpful
for listeners to hear. Like, wait, that was my
experience as well. Like maybe it doesn't have to be
like that. So talk to me about your
background and why you became therapist.
First, I'm gonna start. Yes, you go first.
Okay, princess you know growing up, I would say I was a pretty
depressed child into my adolescence and and had some I
actually had a really great experience as a child in
therapy. I had a really wonderful
therapist, but I remember that the way in which therapy was
introduced to me, was don't tell anyone about this, you have to
go to therapy. Don't talk about this was talked
about as a punishment. And it was talked about as a
secret but that was my first experience in therapy.
It was also something I very much was a very sensitive child.
I'm a sensitive adult. So I very much gravitated to
that role of helping people taking care of people so it was
a natural fit but then as I got into my adolescence as I you
know, when I entered into college I started to have other
therapeutic experiences with therapist that had a little bit
of a clinical wall. It was very Difficult to connect
to them and so that, you know, kind of skewed my view of
therapy a bit until, and I always, you know, I majored in
Psychology and undergrad so it was always something I was very
interested in but I was always told, you know, you're not going
to be at my by my parents. You're not you're really not
going to be able to make any money as a therapist.
So listen to them and I went into marketing and had the worst
year of my life right after college.
And was like, listen I'm just To go do, what?
Feels right for me and sometimes you have to make a mistake and
do something that you really hate in order for it to drive
you into something you really love.
So I then applied to grad school, met Emily and the rest
was history, what is funny thing?
Because for as much as gent is, we always talk about often often
a family system, which is where family systems therapist, there
is, there's multiple kids. There's an imp loader and an
Exploder. Jen is an imploding, she keeps
it inside. She Will destroy itself within,
I am an Exploder so for me, adolescence was it.
Eating disorder self-injurious Behavior, a borderline
personality disorder diagnosis of bipolar that, you know,
everything. Because I my adolescence was
this feels off but I do not keep my stuff inside.
I go the other and so I had a similar experience where I had
some positive experience and then I had a lot of negative
experiences, what are those is in a residential treatment
center Of those, within our PHP program are partial
hospitalization program. People don't know.
And then, I go to college. And every experience I had in
college was super - every therapist did not get me.
I really, really struggled and Jen.
And I are both Petty bitches that we were like, we could
probably do this better. And so I actually went to school
to be a teacher, did the first half my student teaching and was
like, oh no, I'm not made to be around children, this isn't this
Edition and not it for me. I went into my advisor, I was at
Penn State. What's my visor?
I said, what can I switch into that?
Will not keep me. Like, I can't keep staying at
the school. So what can I transfer into
that? I'm still gonna graduate.
Like, just one semester behind and she said, oh, human
development and family studies. And I said, what the fuck is
that? She said, basically means you go
to grad schools, like, okay, great, I'll buy myself, some
work supports, I perfect. What?
I was always a person that people wanted.
I always like talking to people that I was very interested in
talking to people specifically about their relationships,
especially about their And a really about sex.
And so Jay and I both ended up and graduate school at Thomas
Jefferson University because they have a Sex Therapy,
specialization a couples therapist.
Specialization we both knew, we wanted to do something along
those lines. But even with our Specialties,
the thing that has come back to us, that speaks to our soul over
and over and over again, is the fact that I believe therapy is
for everyone, just not every therapist is for everyone.
And so if we can make thyristor, people probably a lot of people
that listen, This podcast that like maybe you're already cool
with going to therapy, but there's a lot of people that are
not, there's a lot of people that it is still stigmatized as
little people that still, or they had one really negative
experience and they're like, I will never go to therapy again.
And so, I really believe the more we can convince people that
there is the right therapist for you somewhere.
Even if it wasn't the first one, you found that.
It can be incredibly life-changing.
I think that's so true. And I think it's especially
difficult for teens and adolescents because a lot of the
time they're not as Alton the decision-making process.
Yes. Their parents have found this
person in there like this person with, like, 45 years of
experience with adults? This is the one.
Yeah. And you're like, no, or they're
like, this is a child therapist and they're like offering.
You sticker charts. Ya know.
So it's can be difficult to find that match and it requires a lot
more advocating for yourself. And especially if you haven't
been to therapy before being like, I don't think this is
right there. You're like, well, maybe this is
just what therapy He is so it can be really difficult to
differentiate if it's not the right fit or if this is just a
new experience for you. Well, I love what you said about
someone else, taking it out. The number thing you have to do
when you find the right, therapist is like, you know,
because you can get Word of Mouth referrals, which are cool
too, but just because they were the and that's why I say like
they're bizarre. Every woman, not that every
therapist is for everyone right now.
So your best friend, can have a therapist they love and that is
not the right match for you. So like you do have to do some
of that work. The same thing we're talking
about is like taking personal radical God's ability to, I get
enough sleep to I-10. Am I taking command of my own
life and healing? Yeah, and the one thing we know
at the most important predictor of therapeutic, success is the
relationship that you build with your therapist.
And so often people, like, people stay in romantic
relationships that aren't right for them.
People stay in therapeutic relationships, that maybe aren't
right for them and they don't know that there's anything else.
And so you recommend a therapist shop, we recommend to For
yourself to make sure that you're finding someone who is
the right fit for you. And as you were saying with the
The Adolescents piece, I think so often because the parents are
recommending a therapist that adolescent already feels like
other therapist is aligned with my parents.
Yeah. And if you're if you're fighting
up against your parents right and you want to become your own
person, you want to be able to speak your truth when you
already feel like the therapist is aligned with your parents.
There's already that, you know, breach of trust in the
relationship. So I think advocating for
yourself as Adolescent like doing the work, you know,
whether it's with your parents or whether it's, it can be
really, really helpful and in choosing the right therapist.
Yeah, the best therapist relationships that I've had as a
teenager or the ones where you go in and they're the first
thing they say is like, okay, yes, your parents are paying me
like yes, they helped research but I'm your therapist.
I'm on your side. I'm in your corner.
Yes, they may give advice or try and like put things on the
agenda, but I'm first and foremost here, to help you and
just setting that Boundary at the beginning and making it very
clear, that that's kind of how things stand.
Just like, if you were an adult like some random friend that was
like, I think this is what you should talk about in therapy
deck, okay? Thanks but no same thing for if
your parents are like let's have this to the agenda.
Like it's not their session most of the time unless you're doing
family therapy, which is a whole other burden to tackling tough
one, something that a lot of people don't know, is in this
obviously depends on state, but like in the state of
Pennsylvania at 14 years old you get to consent to your own
treatment meaning at 14 years old.
They can't tell your parents anything without a release of
information. Now that varies by state if you
have listeners from a lot of different places but 14 and 14,
we still think that our parents take care of everything for us.
We're like we think our parents are in everything.
You do have, right? It's something that we should
all think of, as we get older and we become parents ourselves.
We should Empower our kids to know this information and to
respect that privacy and time. It's so true and it definitely
makes It's me think about so many experiences that I had at a
therapeutic boarding school that I went to that was definitely in
the troubled teen industry and I'm such a big advocate for
treatment and therapy because it was so helpful and there's also
this other side of things where I was like.
Well, that experience was not as helpful and really illuminates
like what was helpful and that advocating for yourself that
privacy that at 14 consecutive treatment, like that wasn't
totally there. Because your parents were the
ones that were watch, much more involved, kids were getting sent
to treatment. Regardless of if they wanted to
be there or not and in the long term, you just saw that people
that were being forced to be there.
They weren't dedicated. They weren't involved in the
process. They would jump through hoops
like myself included but just to get out and it wasn't really
truly effective or helpful in seeing long-term results.
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Essentials. So I would love to hear from you
guys what you like to see and clients, obviously not like what
diagnoses are like, what presentations, but what is
someone who brings a lot to the table?
And you're like they want to be here.
They're invested what helps a session run smoothly.
Especially for people that are like I've never been to therapy
but I want to try it. And I want to make sure I'm
giving it my best shot. What is your guys
recommendations? Well, yeah, I was just so that I
think there's a lot of things that play into that.
So we're probably just going to go back and forth with this but
because the fact of the matter is, everyone comes to therapy at
different stages in their Readiness, or willingness to do
any sort of change or work or dive into trauma.
And so, I want to say everything with the caveat of Of.
We first and foremost empathize with the fact that everyone
comes in at different stages and that's okay.
Part of our job is needing the clients where they are.
And so, you know, I would say we don't necessarily have an
expectation on, you have to come in at this very specific time in
order for us to do good work. I think something that is really
helpful is going into therapy and it not just being the 50
minutes in therapy that you're doing the work.
That you're also taking what you talk about in therapy outside of
the room and you're thinking about it.
You're processing it. Maybe you're doing some homework
that the therapist gave but I think that that's that's one
thing that's really helpful. Is to take what you're learning
and therapy and bring it outside, right?
Because we're only there for 50 minutes.
If we were there for the entire week, you know, that would be
really rough, right? You don't want us to follow you
around, you will not be able to know.
I've done the intensive treatment on the five times a
week. It's a lot.
It's a lot a lot. So you don't want a therapist 24
set, you want to be able to take the things you learn and really
apply them. So I would say everyone's unique
and what they're bringing in and and and I think an important
thing to note too, is that we understand that, sometimes it
might take years to dive into some really tough trauma or some
things that you never told anyone about that.
It's not our expectation that you come in.
You can if you feel ready for that.
Absolutely. Before we're right there with
you, but it isn't If you're a year two years into therapy and
you're thinking, I haven't told my therapist this and I feel
like it's too late. It is never too late.
It actually happens. So often that clients will come
in and they don't disclose something to you after a year,
two years, because sometimes it really takes time to build that
trust and build that therapeutic relationship in order to feel
safe enough to do. So I think, what are the things
that drive to made things that come up?
So one is, how are you spending? Right.
So what Jen said is that like Like 50 minutes once a week.
Like realistically, if you did anything one time a week for 50
minutes and then just like cataracts in it, the rest of the
week. Like, it wouldn't be that ideal.
Yeah. So what are those is like yes,
Ed in those 50 minutes and my talking about myself or other
people there is this part? A lot of times we end up in
therapy because the people in life are there's like a quote
that says like you're in therapy because other people in your
life art therapy, I think that's true.
But if you understand the entire time, talking about your
roommates shitty boyfriend, I don't get to hear about you.
Why it hurts, you why it triggers?
You why it brings up from you, right?
So are you bringing about yourself?
A lot of us are become resentful of people in our life because we
make it all about them. And then we pay money and spend
50 minutes, making it about them even more.
So, how do I bring back to myself, right?
Because the only person I can actually control and change is
me, am I really prioritizing that in those sessions?
and additionally, I also think If you have an issue with your
therapist, if we say something that hurts you, if we say
something that's Off the Mark, say it one of the best things
you can do is to use the therapeutic relationship as a
model and an experience for other relationships in your
life. So, if you're someone who
struggles with conflict, have a conflict with your therapist.
If your struggle, if you're someone with who struggles with
saying, no, say no to your therapist with it.
They need to switch that session time, right?
Like what The things, how am I actually practicing and using
the therapeutic relationship to then grow my relationships
outside of the room? I think that's so true.
And I think like, if there's anyone that you want to
challenge a relationship Dynamic with, it's the person that spent
years in school and does this professionally with people all
week. I like.
And that's, that is verse. That is exactly the point I was
going to make, is that like, we are trained to make sure that we
can hold that space for you in whatever.
Ever whatever that looks like, right?
It's we welcome feedback. We welcome you to come in and
say certain things to us that maybe by right?
Like oh and the last session you said this thing to me and it
really triggered this for me. Can we talk about that?
It's actually so important and kind of essential for us to be
able to help you do that work because for you to be able to
bring that into therapy and and work through that in your
therapeutic relationship allows you to take that and bring it
into your relationships outside. If therapy.
So the work that you do, sometimes in the session, you
can bring outside into your other relationships, we make
mistakes all the time, right? Like I've had men.
Oh my gosh, I had a client a few months ago who I have worked
with person for years and years years, we have an amazing
relationship, I love them. Dearly we talked a lot and she
came into session and she said I have to bring up the sing and
she said don't get into advice-giving mode.
She said to me, right? And you want to know what I
think I would have because the thing that she brought up was
Was something we had done this work on.
We had done this thing, but she that wasn't where she was at
right now. And she was able to ask for
exactly what she needed. And that shouldn't have been her
job in the room, but the fact that she was able to do that
after all this time together. Yeah.
And I was able to say you are. So right.
Let's just hear this today. It's just process.
Let's just be quiet around this, right?
Like, that is powerful because it also showed her she's allowed
to say that to people. All over.
Even if it doesn't go great, even if people are reactive,
once you have it, start to happen once which you start to
have something you start to feel empowered.
That's Mastery. That's how we build self-esteem.
Self-esteem is not built from somebody tell you, you're pretty
and smart and lovely. Although, that's a lovely things
to do. Self-esteem is built through
Mastery. Keeping promises to yourself and
growing yourself in that way. Yeah, I love that.
And I also really like what you guys mentioned about, how you
Necessarily need to bring everything on day one.
I also think for my own therapy Journey, the beginning.
I would just go there and I would like at times literally
run out the clock. My parents are paying, but I
would stare at the clock and I would do nothing.
I feel so bad for this therapist.
I was not the star client, but no wonder she didn't pick up
unlike my extreme depression diagnosis because I would sit
there and stare at the ground and do nothing for the whole
hour. I've gotten so much more out of
therapy if I bring something that I want to talk about in
session, it's some kind of agenda think about what's been
bugging me this week and it doesn't have to be like some
deep belief system or trauma that you'd experience sometimes.
I'm like, my goal for this week is, I want to improve my habits.
I'm going to try and work out this number of times and I just
cannot do it. What do we do to address that?
Or like I have these School assignments, that I'm really
struggling with procrastination. What are the tips there?
How can I make sure I get that done.
So it's little things, it doesn't have Be super deep but
you're at least getting some need met and something that
you're going through addressed and then you leave the session
more prepared to navigate that, I love that you brought that up
because I think there is a preconceived notion about what
you need to be bringing into therapy.
And every session can look different and it's such a
journey in such a process, right?
I think there's this idea of your going into therapy. 0 means
you're going to talk about your childhood wounds for like years
and years and years like yes. Some sessions are like that but
they don't have to be. And part of the process is going
going deep, and then coming back up and going deep.
And then coming back up, right? There's a level of safety that's
created in that. So I love that so much because I
really think that that dispels, the myth of you have to go into
every session in a certain way and that's not true.
Yeah, what other myths do you guys commonly hear people?
Whether it's from clients, whether it's people in your
community that they have about therapy about treatment about
mental health, that you're like, that is just so absolutely not
true and I wish people were more, people knew this So we
actually just talked about one of these on a podcast because we
are couples therapist to this idea.
That if you're going to couples therapy, there might be there
must be something really wrong in the relationship where we
actually recommend couples therapy at any point in the
relationship. Yeah.
Because couples tend to go to couples therapy seven years too
late. Oh my goodness.
Wow. And they come in and they're
already. He out the door and there's no
work that can be done in that point.
So in terms of couples therapy, I would say that's one big one.
Is that, I believe that you because no one ever taught us
how to be in a relationship, right?
Like that's and being a relationship is very difficult
and I actually, if you're modeling from the relationships,
you've seen in your life and they're not healthy, or they're
not good Dynamics. It's like, okay, we need to get
some help and rivers that end. There's, unfortunately so much
shame around that. But it really is, we find it.
Important to just do that maintenance to learn about your
partner to learn about yourself. Can be so incredibly helpful in
your room and your romantic relationships.
I think another really big myth. We talk about a lot is that you
should leave every therapy session, feeling better.
There's that's not true. I should feel so amazing when I
walk out the door, like no, like we're not giving you like we're
not giving you like a Oxycodone. And then your water, the
psychiatrist you feel worse. So I think one thinking that,
like everything is going to feel amazing and perfect and
wonderful and rose-colored glasses.
That's toxic positivity bullshit.
And I would also say, thinking that it's going to one of the
things that makes it difficult, especially in college.
Campuses is sometimes you only get like five to ten sessions.
Yeah, yeah. Hey.
Which is a rule. If you're dealing with like one
roommate issue, when you like this is, I just had To do this.
We're just talking this out and maybe you only need five
sessions to do that, but for a lot of us we need more than five
to ten sessions so having this expectation on how long it will
or should take can sometimes set us up for feeling disappointed
or feeling like we're not doing enough and feel like we're
failing at therapy. Like that's not how this is.
It is not one-size-fits-all, it is not one perfect thing and I
also think that all therapists are exactly the same, there's so
many different modalities of therapy.
You You have to find the right one for you, right?
Like so maybe CBT works but CBT dozen or DBT does, but a somatic
doesn't right. There's so many different types
and I know that it can be really confusing because we don't want.
And what see if we don't educate.
I don't know mental health. We're not like he hears a
different types of therapy will say to your doing that but we're
not doing that he was right. Right.
So I'm gonna do that in like
high school. Like we do when we should be
learning like mental health in our taxes, mainly we just assume
everything's the same. So not all therapies created,
equal, not all. This is the same so it's not
easy and it's not simple and it takes time and the expectations
can make us feel a lot of disappointment around this
experience and your other. Another one that I want to
mention is that you know your therapist very much cares about
you and thinks about you outside of your session.
Because I think you know sometimes you know if people
think about mental health are you just doing it for the money
or you're just right or you have to care about me because I'm
paying for you? Oh, that is actually so not true
weave. So care for our clients and we
think about you outside of outside of your session.
We think about how you're doing, we think about what's going on
for you and we still need money to eat.
We still need money to eat right much exist.
Both things are very can exist in the same dialect Lane.
Exactly, exactly. So we very, very much care about
our clients. I That.
So you guys work in family systems, I would love to hear
about that. Is, we talked about learning
about the different types of therapy.
Talk to me about that modality and how that shows up, whether
it's like couples therapy with teenagers with adults, all of
that. So, yeah.
So, we're trained our, we're licensed marriage and family
therapist, which what that actually means is that we are
trained in family systems, so we look at everything within the
context around it. It doesn't mean that we only
work with a lot of couples and families, but we also work with
a lot of individuals. It just means when I work with
you as an individual. I'm also thinking about all the
different systems you come from, so how work impacts, you how
your family of origin, impacts you how in the generational
trauma affects you. And so, we're just looking at
everyone as part as a larger system for me to understand how
to best help you, because we believe relationships really
matter. It's incredibly popular in this
day and age just say like, let's just cut people off but actually
what we try to get people to do is to not cut people off.
Hard, uncomfortable, frustrating conversations for growth.
And that is what a lot of family systems is so really looking at
the context of the situation that say be everything you've
been through in your life. Also is a product of all the
systems. You've been a part of something,
something that can be really helpful with that.
Work is helping you to not recreate patterns in your family
systems that maybe were dysfunctional or maybe we're not
working for you. So helping, you know, if we
working with an individual, we're working with a couple of
helping you recognize the patterns that you might be
recreating in your current relationships.
You might not even be realizing it or recognizing it.
So helping you gain that awareness.
So that if you're bringing something into your
relationships that was once serving you or was normalized in
your families, but is no longer serving you and is hurting you
in some way to help you acknowledge that and help you
make changes to that. The one of the things you might
that might happen in the first few sessions with an mft is we
ask A three generations back. I also want to know about your
parents and their story about their grandparents, right?
Because we also believe that like it's easy to blame the
parents for like, how do we have empathy and understands why
people are the way that they are.
We truly believe everyone has a story.
In part of our family systems is also narrative therapy.
Where we believe people have stories that they write and we
also get to rewrite them at any time.
So what's the story I'm telling myself about who I am?
What The story I tell myself that my parents was the story.
My parents have about me and this goes for, like, you know,
the stories people put on to you as well.
People make you out to be a certain way, when you have a
mental health, diagnosis at a young age and it actually says
very little about your future. Yeah.
Yeah, no. And if anything I found that
having had a diagnosis early on, I feel more equipped to navigate
any challenges or emotions that arise.
Like I was so sensitive to any like environmental stressor or
trigger. When I was like a teenager and
really, really struggling and the other day, my friend was
like nothing, really fazes, you like you're pretty chill and I
was like that is such a compliment because that's so did
not used to be the case. But it's like I've built up this
ability to cope with the things that come at me and know how to
navigate the emotions that arise.
And if anything that's a huge strength because most people
learned that way later on in life, oh yeah, I always tell
everyone it's better to have your break down your teens in
your 20s because if now you come I'm in my office and you have it
in your fifties which is fine to.
We're always going to make it work.
But I like it nice existential break down early on totally even
if the child gets to work through it because you really,
you know, we don't get when you get through it.
You learn a set of coping skills as you're saying that are so
beneficial to you as an adult. Also logistically, like I took a
semester off of school did a year and a half of treatment,
like when else are you going to have time for that?
And it didn't impact College. I was still able to Things
around like earlier on guys, it's the move I promised a
hundred percent and you created incredible Mission out of it and
an incredible podcast which is unbelievable.
Thank you, I appreciate that. Today's episode is brought to
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So we talked about kind of rewriting narratives having
empathy for people in your life. Are there other lessons that you
will often Ian, that clients are often learning in therapy that
they are applying these insights that they have that they're
like, whoa. I've never thought about it.
That way, before that you're often helping people work
through another. It's a very vague question.
No. Well, it all day every day.
Yeah, like constantly. So, so, I think, you know, one
of the big things that I, you know, just mentioned and to dive
into a, you know, a little deeper is that sometimes we
learn ways of surviving as children that were once so
functional for us, right? So, for example, If, you know,
when you were a child expressing, your emotions wasn't
allowed, right? So, the way in, which you dealt
with that was to hold it in and not tell anyone how you felt not
that. This is a personal experience at
all. No.
And so, but as you get older,
that is that is something that helped you survived when you
were a child, right? Because expressing your emotions
was not going to be helpful for you.
As you get as you turn into an adult and you get into
relationships, not expressing your emotions.
Actually ends up hurting you, right?
You're not a willing participant in your relationships.
If you're not willing to express your emotions, you're not
letting anyone else. Know how you feel.
There's no way for anyone to know, so there's something when
you take the things that you learned that helped you survive
at one point in your life and you bring them into adulthood
and you don't even realize that you're doing it.
You don't even realize that these things are hurting you
really learning how to relinquish that and recognize
that you no longer need those coping mechanisms as a way to
survive. I Is a big aha moment.
Sometimes it takes people a while to get there because it's
so terrifying to let go of the things that were once.
So, incredibly helpful for you or surviving, they kept you
alive. Exactly.
And they kept you connected to
your parents, right? So being connected to your
parents or your caregivers when you're a child is essential.
And so as you get older and you recognize, listen, I'm in a
dilemma fully functioning adult. I can take care of myself.
So how do I want to live my life as opposed to the things that
are driving me? The things that were once
survival for me and I really bringing me down.
They're not helping me anymore. I think that that's a huge thing
that is really helpful and in therapy and I think one of the
things we also talked about in regards to that is what the
general public calls expectations.
We call unconscious contracts, right.
So like we go into relationships with conscious unconscious,
contracts, those are expectations.
They're typically not spoken ones, right?
So I have an expectation gen I own a business together, right?
So if I have an unconscious contract because of that She
should be fully loyal to me and never talk back to me or never
have an issue with something. I'm saying that's not real, or
fair or true, right? But if I haven't unconscious
expectation of, I already put us in an unconscious contract.
It means that when Jen does something where she says, he
hadn't really like that thing you did or this didn't work for
me. I think she violated a contract,
and I see it as a betrayal, even though it wasn't.
So we can exist together goes back to the dinosaurs.
Dialectical. Some of the dichotomy stuff is
that there's so many parts of all of us and what are the
expectations? The unconscious contracts, the
things I'm entering into relationships with and maybe I
need to take a little bit deeper.
Look, that what I'm thinking, other people should be doing.
And then also, what am I thinking and expectation, I'm
putting on myself. Yeah, that's huge.
It's a small reframe, but it can have such a big impact on your
relationships on the way, you're seeing things.
So many different implication. Absolutely.
And those things can come from our Families.
Right. Like expectations that our
families passed on to us. They can also come from societal
expectations, right? Like what Society tell, what
social media telling me? I should be doing right now?
What point in time am I in my life?
Telling me I should be in Tulum because everyone needs to be
there. I'm giving baby videos all over
my feet and I'm like, I'm 19 in college, what have I done to
attract this? Like, it is the, even the
algorithm, right? Like, so like this, That we are
being influenced so much. Unbelievable.
So that's those are some other things that we can help you
break down. Because once again these are so
subconscious to us that we don't even realize that were
functioning in that way. Yeah, right.
We have this maybe like timeline on our lives that we don't
realize is they're from society from our families from and we're
pushing things forward that maybe we don't even want, right?
Maybe, we haven't even asked ourselves.
Do I really want this or is this something that Society?
Like Society expects of me are there certain?
Like I don't want to use like red flags because it's been good
to observe these things but certain thought patterns are
beliefs that are associated with having these expectations that
people can be mindful of, if you hear yourself saying, should a
lot, right? If you're saying, I should do
this, go ahead and disappointment resentment.
If you feel live, disappointment relationships, a lot of
resentment and relationships, then you're doing those sugars.
Just like Jen said, right? That like it, because you're
putting In all this stuff on other people.
So if you find like, why am I not happy and right, like am I
causing my own suffering in some ways?
Yeah, you're shutting all over yourself.
I love it, I love it. No.
And I think that's one of the biggest things for me,
especially, it was that I did. Cause a lot of my suffering.
I got in my own way, a lot and that takes a lot of undoing.
It's like, belief systems its relationships.
It's behaviors. It's all of those things and
having that therapeutic relationship to help work
through, That is huge coming full circle.
We talked about how therapies for everyone are there.
Certain things that people can be aware of today?
Like therapy might be helpful whether it's different
relationships or they're struggling with a behavior or a
belief or emotions that would clue you in to be like, you know
what, it could be helpful to get support.
Yeah, I think therapy really is helpful for everyone.
Whether you're having red flags or not, right.
But I think the sort of things is, if I end up disappointed in
my relationships, if I end up resentful, if I find myself,
irritable often, if I find that, I either lash out or shut down
both our emotional reactions. Like, I think, sometimes we
think only lashing out the emotional reaction but also if
you shut it down, if I'm an employee overson Exploder, all
of those are times to be like you.
I know what, like it could be cool to processes out with
someone and Not the same as talking to your friends so often
people like oh but I had my friends to talk to that's the
blind leading the blind at. Yeah, would you Girlfriends,
like really is telling agers when you go to your friend, if
you had like, you know, like I guess if you're probably
Strokes. Yeah.
But is it giving you a different or is it still the same thing
that keeps happening? Yeah, I think rumination to like
Very in your head about certain things can be a really kind of a
big, you know, this might be a good time to go to therapy if
you just find yourself, not in the present moment and and more.
So in your head a lot rethinking things, thinking about things
like kind of battling your own mind, that might be a good time
to go to therapy. Yeah, there's another thing that
I love to mention that I learned in my normal psychology class
which is that people that present with extreme symptoms
and presentations. They tend to seek treatment very
quickly and they're able to get support, they're able to go.
And to remission is not the right word, recovery.
Whatever it is a lot quicker than people that are presenting
in a much smaller way. It's not completely derail in
your life, but it's having negative impacts and it ends up
lasting for decades and having much more detrimental impacts
because they're like, well, I don't need treatment yet.
I don't need therapy. I don't need support.
It's not that bad. And in some ways it becomes so
much more severe because it impacts so much more of your
life because you Gotten that support and it is so true,
right? And I think a lot of it has to
do with. Are you high functioning, right?
These people like you know you could drink a lot be a
high-functioning alcoholic. You can have be a
high-functioning eating disorder, could have high
functioning depression and when you're still functioning in the
socially appropriate mainstream way, which first of all, we have
a sick Society like really obsessed with productivity like
right? Like just because you're like
normal in this Society like isn't meaning shit.
So yeah right so like if I'm having all of these things how
high functioning Am I? It's so true.
People are becoming less and they think like well I can get
out of bed. I don't have to pressure, it's
not what this looks like and so some of these and that's also
how I think TV and movie has two has wheelie, displayed
depression, which is not accurate for the majority of
people who would be diagnosed with depression.
And and I think you know, part of this just as we were talking
about in couples therapy like Digby.
Stigmatizing the conversation around just going to a therapist
right at any point that it Doesn't mean you have to be, you
know, at this breakdown, right? That if you're battling your own
mind, if you're struggling in your relationships at any point,
it can be helpful to go to therapy.
Yeah, it's such a great resource and I completely agree with you
guys that with what you guys said that therapy's for everyone
and you can find some benefit with some therapist because
there are like endless possibilities of what you can
work on what you can dive into and it's all what you want to
bring to the table. Like again, there's like no set.
This is what you have to focus on this.
What you have to talk about, like it can be anything and
everything that's important to you, and that's what makes it so
amazing. Only, absolutely, I love that.
Well, thank you guys so, so much for coming and sitting down for
this conversation. I know it's going to help so
many people. I absolutely loved it.
Where can people follow along with your content?
You can find our podcast anywhere that you listened to
your podcast called shrink chicks.
We also have a therapy practice called the R&B group.
We're currently seeing our clinician, we have 30
clinicians, they're seeing clients in person and are
Westchester and Philadelphia offices.
Also doing virtual in Pennsylvania, New Jersey,
Delaware, New York, Massachusetts, Florida, and
California. So if your home any of those
States, all those places you can, you can fill out a contact
form and we can set you up with the therapist and I think that's
it. And we got anything else.
Go that's it, go to therapy, go to self, Chico to therapy.
Yes, and Sadie. Thank you so much for just like
creating this platform. I wish I was as confident in
myself and just did the amount of work that you did.
I wasn't always like this, I thought of work but it's
incredible. It really is incredible.
What you're doing? We appreciate you.
I appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for listening
to this week's episode of she persisted.
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