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Welcome to Sheep Assisted, the 
Gen. 

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Z mental health podcast. 
I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. 

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Let's get into it. 
You have to make meaning out of 

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suffering. 
If you don't, it's just 

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suffering and it was for 
nothing. 

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If you do, then you grow through
it or you help others as a 

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result of it, but it's not for 
nothing. 

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And that is a choice we have to 
make. 

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And I do believe that everybody 
can make that choice in some 

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way, shape or form. 
Hello, hello you guys and 

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welcome back to She persisted. 
We have an episode that is like 

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six years in the making today, 
basically almost since I started

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the podcast. 
We have my therapist on the 

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show. 
She just came out with a book 

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called Validation, which I'm 
absolutely obsessed with. 

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You guys have heard me talk 
about how crucial of a shift I 

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saw with my relationship with my
parents once we both learned to 

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validate, when I learned to 
advocate for validation and be 

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vulnerable about what I was 
experiencing so they could in 

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turn speak to that createspace 
for it, help me feel like I was 

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seen and heard and belonged. 
And so we talk about that and so

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many other things in this 
episode. 

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A little bio for you. 
Doctor Caroline Flack is a 

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licensed clinical psychologist, 
corporate consultant, author, 

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and an adjunct clinical 
instructor at Stanford 

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University. 
She's a respected voice in 

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psychology and has been featured
in national media outlets 

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including The New York Times, 
Good Morning America, and 

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Huffington Post. 
And her new book Validation is 

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available everywhere. 
You can buy books. 

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I highly recommend whether you 
are going through mental health 

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challenges, someone in your life
is or you just want to be more 

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effective in your relationships 
or more effective with yourself,

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like we talked about in this 
episode. 

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And she dives into in her book, 
there's really no one that can't

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benefit from learning the skills
of validation and see outcomes 

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in almost every area. 
It's like really the psychology 

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magical skill that we're all for
some reason lacking. 

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So to dive into the topics 
today, we talked about this 

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stigma about receiving 
dialectical behavioral therapy 

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treatment, if meditation can 
help in treating depression, how

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you see the world when you're 
depressed. 

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We talked about the roles of 
acceptance and change in DBT. 

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What types of people are more 
motivated to accept their 

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experience versus just lean into
changing it. 

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We talked about why Gen. 
Z is facing a mental health 

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crisis and both our thoughts on 
that validation and why it's so 

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important to start practicing 
it. 

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Eight ways you can validate 
someone else. 

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The key between validation and 
praise because they are very 

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different. 
We talked about why we self 

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invalidate and how to change 
this. 

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What happens when we're 
chronically invalidated using 

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DBT to treat self harm and 
suicidality. 

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Not much of A trigger warning 
here. 

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We do talk about what that looks
like in DBT and like the 

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different boundaries that are 
set and how you can support 

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something, but no details are 
gone into there. 

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And we have a therapist on the 
podcast so it's done in a very 

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effective, nuanced and mindful 
way. 

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We talked about supporting a 
loved one in crisis without 

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reinforcing harmful behaviors, 
which is something that's really

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challenging to do, but also 
important to be aware of. 

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Seeking external validation, 
whether that's something you 

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should be doing or should not, 
spoiler alert, you should be. 

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And we dive into why. 
We talk about the best way to 

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describe living with mental 
health challenges or mental 

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illness because it can be really
hard to verbalize that and then 

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in turn get validation for that 
experience. 

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We talk about ways that 
suffering can add value to your 

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life and what Gen. 
Z should know about validation. 

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So we really go all over in this
episode. 

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It is truly, I think my favorite
conversation I've ever had on 

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the podcast, if not like top 
three. 

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This is an episode everyone 
should listen to. 

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And I really, really hope you 
get as much value out of it as I

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did. 
And I loved bringing this 

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conversation on the podcast. 
So I don't want to take up too 

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much of your time yapping in 
this intro, but I really do hope

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you love it. 
And if you do share, leave a 

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review, tag me, send me a 
message. 

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All the things and all the links
to things we mentioned will be 

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in the show notes. 
So with that, let's dive in. 

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Well, Doctor Fleck, welcome to, 
she persisted. 

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Thank you so much. 
It's a pleasure to be here. 

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It's been like six years in the 
making. 

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It seriously has been just about
that. 

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It's. 
Crazy. 

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You have a new book about 
validation out and we're going 

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to talk a lot about that and why
it's so important, both from the

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perspective of struggling with 
your mental health and that 

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being an unmet need for a lot of
people that are not feeling seen

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and heard, which is a very 
prominent element of suffering 

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with mental health challenges. 
But also why it's so important 

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in your other relationships and 
getting what you want from other

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people and being effective and 
just showing up in all these 

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really crucial aspects of our 
lives. 

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So to get started, for people 
who haven't read your book, can 

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you tell me your background, how
you decided to go into 

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psychology, specifically DBT and
BPD, which is a very unique 

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subset that a lot of people 
don't choose to go into? 

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And then how you came across 
validation as this area that was

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so under discussed and under 
emphasized especially in like 

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the general public? 
Yeah, So I can give my very 

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protected and professional 
answer to that question, which 

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is all about my research 
interests and everything. 

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But, you know, given that I 
think a lot of your listeners 

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can relate, empathize, 
understand, hopefully not judge 

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mental health issues. 
I'll just be straight and say 

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that I I suffered from 
depression when I was in high 

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school and in my early 20s. 
So I was in a pretty serious 

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episode of depression for what 
felt like almost 10 to 15 years.

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And I had just tried everything.
And I frankly found many of the 

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providers that I spoke with to 
be, and by providers, I mean 

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therapists, psychiatrists, to be
really invalidating. 

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I found therapy often was 
punishing, confusing and not 

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helpful. 
And so in addition to therapy, I

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had tried a bunch of other, you 
know, interventions, meds, XY 

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and Z, and nothing had really 
helped. 

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So I selfishly, I think, wanted 
to go into the field to, like, 

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see if I could figure out how to
treat depression. 

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I mean, clearly the what I was 
receiving was not doing anything

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for me and I certainly 
experienced a lot of it to be 

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damaging. 
And so I wanted to kind of right

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that wrong. 
So that I mean, on some level 

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that was my motivation to go 
into it and what I had found to 

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be really helpful for me. 
The only thing that seemed to 

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have any real substance to it 
was meditation. 

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So meditation for me was just 
the only space in which I could 

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kind of calm my mind and maybe 
get a sense, just a slight taste

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of what freedom from suffering 
would be like. 

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And so I was really interested 
in mindfulness based therapies 

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and at the time and, and still 
DBT was like the intervention. 

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It was the first psychotherapy 
to introduce mindfulness as a 

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key component, as like a skill 
set that that patients learn as 

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part of the treatment. 
And so although DBT was focused 

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on, it is a treatment for 
borderline personality disorder,

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not depression. 
The meditation piece really 

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pulled me in. 
And then once I started studying

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DBT and training in it and 
learning more about borderline 

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personality disorder, I felt 
really called to work with that 

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population because it is among 
the most unfortunately 

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stigmatized. 
And invalidated. 

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Yeah. 
And so, you know, the, the 

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amount of stigma they're coupled
with the, the, the work and 

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meditation that I was seeing in 
DBT, that kind of combo drew me 

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to it. 
So I have two things that came 

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up. 
One is this idea of borderline 

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personality disorder being like 
this almost a case study for 

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DBT. 
And like, I don't think it's 

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understood and perceived. 
It's like, well, this is the 

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best possible news. 
And I feel like it should be 

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like when we think about what we
learn the most about humans, a 

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lot of it, it's from these 
extreme conditions, right? 

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We know about loneliness from 
people that are completely 

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isolated from society and lack 
relationships and interaction. 

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Like I think of Genie, the 
linguistics example. 

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We don't have that connection 
and exposure to these things. 

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We're forever put on this 
trajectory we can't come back 

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from. 
We lot learn a lot about our 

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physiological health from being 
in extreme conditions, whether 

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it's like weather, climb, all 
these different things. 

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And I think DBT is the best 
example of that where when we 

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look at borderline personality 
disorder, it's this case study 

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of individuals that struggle so 
much with emotion regulation and

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tolerating distress and being 
effective in our relationships 

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to like to the NTH degree. 
And if these skills in this 

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framework is effective for 
people who are struggling so 

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much, think about what it can do
for the everyday person, and we 

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don't think about it like that. 
Oh my gosh, you are so speaking 

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my language like that is what I 
was like wanting to scream from 

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the rooftops for the last, you 
know, however many years I've 

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been doing this, which is too 
long. 

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But like yes, if this works in 
these extreme situations. 

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Sadly depressed, no patient, no 
therapist want to work with 

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these patients. 
Right. 

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And if it can affect change 
there, imagine what it can do at

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the less extreme. 
So I think you're exactly right.

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It's like, you know, some of the
the strategies and skills and 

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DPT, the fact that they work for
this population, that's an 

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indication of their potential. 
Not like they're limited, yes. 

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Yeah, and we think about, like, 
extreme athletes, like the 

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Wellness practices they're 
implementing now. 

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Your favorite influencer is 
doing, like, hyperbaric and 

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cupping. 
Like why aren't we doing the 

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same thing for mental health? 
That is such a good point. 

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And I honestly think, and this 
makes me very sad because I 

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think we've come a long way with
how we talk about research and 

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treat BPD. 
I still think a lot of it comes 

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down to stigma. 
That makes me sad, but I think 

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we see folks with BPD as almost 
so unrelatable, so other, so 

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different, that it's hard to 
even imagine how that you know 

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what works there could work for 
me on some level. 

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I think it's also so challenging
because our mental health is so 

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synonymous for a lot of people 
with our identity. 

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It's such an internal experience
that the way that we experience 

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things and cope with them, to 
separate that from who we are as

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humans and how we choose to 
identify and present ourselves. 

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So I think for some people when 
they're like I'm doing this 

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treatment that is really 
effective for borderline 

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personality sort, there's like 
this in Group, out group. 

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I don't want to. 
So like, yeah, yeah, yeah is 

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really prominent as well. 
Yeah. 

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And then there's another, you 
know, equally important factor 

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here, which is that, you know, 
thankfully BPD is relatively 

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rare. 
And as you've I know, mentioned 

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on on this podcast before, it's 
finding evidence based 

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treatments and finding folks who
are comprehensively trained to 

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provide DBT is even harder. 
So this is like a very small 

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community. 
And so getting the word out is 

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again that much harder. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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The other thing you mentioned is
mindfulness, which every time 

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I've done DBT, especially when I
was at like my lowest points, 

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you do mindfulness with the 
caveat of like if you're really,

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really struggling and suffering 
and their self hatred and all 

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the intense emotions, maybe 
mindfulness isn't right for you 

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yet. 
So I'm really curious why that 

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was something that was so 
effective in that dark point 

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when for so many it's like, oh, 
that's like might be dangerous 

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at this point. 
Let's wait. 

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Yeah, and I'm actually glad you 
flagged that because for folks 

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who are severely depressed or in
the throes of a bipolar episode,

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we know that, you know, sitting 
in meditation, sitting with your

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thoughts, may not be the most 
helpful and in fact, could make 

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things worse. 
For me, it gave me insight into 

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the judgmental voice in my head,
and I was able to see that I was

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not that voice, which sounds 
incredibly meta, but like we're.

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Metacognitions. 
Yeah. 

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How do we think about our 
thoughts? 

230
00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:03,360
Yeah. 
And that was really the insight 

231
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,280
I had. 
And I would just get these, I'll

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be straight like sitting in 
meditation for 45 minutes when 

233
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you're super depressed, like 2/3
of that was very painful. 

234
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,480
But I was fortunate enough to 
have just like these moments 

235
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,480
within that sitting where I 
would just have like, freedom 

236
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,280
from just the suffering and the 
voice and everything else. 

237
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,480
And so it was those moments that
I was like, oh, there's 

238
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,640
something there. 
Like I'm not seeing this in 

239
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,480
anything else. 
I'm not getting this anywhere 

240
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,280
else. 
Like what is that? 

241
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,960
Yeah, it's really interesting. 
And I think a lot of people find

242
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,080
that a different ways and that's
what they latch onto is like the

243
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:42,920
beginning of their healing 
process for some, like maybe 

244
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it's exercise and that's the 
alleviation from those feelings.

245
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,880
But especially with depression, 
it's so all consuming that 

246
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,320
anytime you're not feeling that,
like you're very aware of it 

247
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,800
because it's so different from 
your almost constant emotional 

248
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,160
and internal experience. 
Yeah, and I, I think another 

249
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really, I mean a hallmark of 
depression is that negativity. 

250
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,480
So there's just this, this 
negative judgement, you know, 

251
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,800
this these sunglasses basically 
that you're you have on that you

252
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,120
can't seem to take off. 
And it just feels like 

253
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:19,520
everything has this shade to it 
and the ability to see things 

254
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,440
non judge mentally or more 
objectively, I think that's a 

255
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,400
huge relief if nothing else. 
Yeah. 

256
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,200
And I think we're going to 
validate like this is something 

257
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,960
you don't learn when you're 
depressed, but that's like 

258
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,000
biologically how depression 
works. 

259
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,240
Like when we look at studies of 
depressed versus non depressed 

260
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,720
populations, they spend 
statistically longer staring at 

261
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,000
negative stimuli. 
They when they reflect on their 

262
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,960
past experience, they coat them 
with this negative bias that 

263
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,440
doesn't exist in the like 10 
years from then when you then 

264
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,000
reflect. 
So it's like, it's not your 

265
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,240
fault. 
It makes sense that you're 

266
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:55,800
thinking this way. 
It's not that you can't take the

267
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,200
goggles off. 
It's like, no, that's how your 

268
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,720
brain is actually working. 
And that's what's so 

269
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,280
challenging. 
And that you're not even aware 

270
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,760
'cause you're like, why can't I 
just think differently? 

271
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,840
Like why am I not noticing the 
good things? 

272
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,840
And it's like. 
That's the disease. 

273
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,160
That's the disease, right? 
That's like, I mean, it would be

274
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,640
the same thing if you have 
diabetes. 

275
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,560
Like, why can't I just regulate 
my blood sugar? 

276
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,760
Well, that's what diabetes does,
but that's the nature of the 

277
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,760
disease. 
And again, it's like it's so 

278
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,280
internal that we can't 
objectively think about it that 

279
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,000
way, which is what's so 
challenging. 

280
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,080
I want to talk about acceptance 
and change, and DBT is the 

281
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,240
origin of validation because I 
think it's so fascinating. 

282
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,600
And it also explains why 
validation is so crucial and 

283
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,560
shifting behavior and mental 
health, in addition to just like

284
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,720
feeling good and being helpful 
in our relationships. 

285
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,560
But it has really meaningful 
impacts on clinical outcomes and

286
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,400
just our lives as a whole. 
So can you explain this, like 

287
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,560
balance of acceptance and 
change, how Marshall Lenihan 

288
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,760
came across this? 
Because validation, I think, 

289
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,480
really sits on that dialectic. 
It does. 

290
00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,640
So, you know, by the time 
Lenihan came on the scene and 

291
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,560
started to develop this 
treatment DBT for borderline 

292
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,360
personality disorder at the 
time, it was all like behavior 

293
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,280
therapy through like all of the 
evidence based treatments we had

294
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,480
at that time were behavioral or 
cognitive behavioral 

295
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,600
interventions, which simply 
means that the focus was on 

296
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,560
changing behaviors and or 
thoughts. 

297
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,000
And so we were really relying on
strategies like positive 

298
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,440
reinforcement and shaping and 
stuff that frankly most folks 

299
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,440
have heard of now, right? 
We've got like 1000, have you? 

300
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,920
Trained a dog, You're a pro. 
Yeah, yeah, Pro modification. 

301
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,960
Exactly, exactly. 
And we have like all sorts of 

302
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,160
books on this, like how to train
your boss, how to poppy train 

303
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,240
your kid, you know, and it's all
the same principles and that's 

304
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,920
topic habits. 
Exactly, exactly. 

305
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,680
And that stuff does it works 
really well a lot of the time. 

306
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,520
However, it doesn't work all the
time. 

307
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,880
And with the folks Marsha was 
trying to Marsha Linnehan was 

308
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:58,320
trying to treat folks with BPD 
and severe suicidality, self 

309
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,840
harm, really rigid and difficult
to treat behaviors. 

310
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,880
She found that that population 
was not very receptive to the 

311
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,800
emphasis on change. 
And she talks in her book about,

312
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,800
you know, OK, so she thought I'm
going to just communicate 

313
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,520
acceptance. 
If, you know, she's going in 

314
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,760
there, she's trying to help them
problem solve and fix what's not

315
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,480
working. 
And they get really shut down 

316
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,200
and they feel really judged and 
they don't like her. 

317
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,120
So then she goes to the other 
extreme as she describes and she

318
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,520
really focuses acceptance, you 
know, in this kind of 

319
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,840
unconditional positive regard. 
And, and you know, then patients

320
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,560
maybe loved her, but they 
weren't getting any better. 

321
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,480
And so combining those 
strategies, is there a way that 

322
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,880
I can communicate that I accept 
you as you are, while at the 

323
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,880
same time emphasizing that there
needs to be some change here. 

324
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:54,280
And that is the motto of DBT. 
It's kind of that you're doing 

325
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,680
the best you can and you need to
do better. 

326
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,680
And what she did was she 
developed a set of validation 

327
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,599
skills to help therapists 
communicate that acceptance, and

328
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,960
she used those alongside those 
tried and true behavioral 

329
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,000
principles. 
And when she combined those two 

330
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,839
methods, all of a sudden we had 
something incredibly powerful. 

331
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,400
We were able to get through to 
folks and help people whom we, 

332
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,440
up to that point, considered 
untreatable. 

333
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,960
This is a very big breakthrough 
that for some reason didn't get,

334
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,280
you know, certainly not have a 
lot of public attention. 

335
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,680
But it was huge when this 
happened. 

336
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,040
This was in the early 90s. 
I'm curious if you have any 

337
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:45,400
thoughts or theories even just, 
like anecdotally about who just 

338
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,960
change works for and also who 
really desires that acceptance? 

339
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,200
Because when I think about just 
changing, and I see this content

340
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,000
all the time on social media 
where it's almost like it's like

341
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,480
the life coach model where 
someone is like, no one's coming

342
00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,280
for you. 
Nothing's gonna change until you

343
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,040
do. 
You are on your own. 

344
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,400
And I'm like, like, it makes me 
less motivated. 

345
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,120
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Well, that sucks. 

346
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,760
I'm like, you suck. 
Like, I'm not gonna take your 

347
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,800
advice now. 
Like, it almost turns me off to 

348
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,880
making any shifts. 
I'm like, well you try solving 

349
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:15,560
this. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

350
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,280
Are you kidding me? 
And so I'm kind of curious, is 

351
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,680
it people that maybe internally 
have a high level of acceptance 

352
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,920
for their experiences? 
Is it people that are less 

353
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,160
emotionally sensitive? 
Are they not stuck in that 

354
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,680
suffering spiral? 
I'm curious who you kind of 

355
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,920
think can rely on just change to
kind of almost offer insight 

356
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,040
into that experience and then 
who really does require that 

357
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:38,680
acceptance? 
We can have that self-awareness 

358
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,320
like, OK, I'm in that camp. 
I need someone to like, really 

359
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:43,280
be like. 
This is hard and here's how we 

360
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,520
can shift it. 
I actually have a radical view 

361
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,520
on that, which is that even the 
folks who are more change 

362
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,880
oriented, in my experience, they
benefit more, improve faster, 

363
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,080
reach their goals quicker when 
validation is also part of the 

364
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,960
equation. 
When I incorporate validation 

365
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,880
with those folks that said 
they're, you know, I do a lot of

366
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,280
executive coaching and so I'll 
have folks coming in and they 

367
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,440
have very specific agendas for 
the things that they want to 

368
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,840
work on and address. 
And it is very like, help me 

369
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,760
solve this problem. 
And you know, this is going to 

370
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,240
sound maybe like a stereotype, 
but there's a very type A 

371
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,800
quality to that. 
Like give me homework, right? 

372
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,680
And I think certain people feel 
a certain amount of control in 

373
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,280
that, and in that they find 
reassurance, whereas some others

374
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:39,040
here overwhelming, like what 
they feel from that is stress 

375
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,880
and pressure. 
And so though I think for folks 

376
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,320
who are, again, perhaps more 
type A focused on solving the 

377
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:52,520
problem, feel control when they 
have more answers, change 

378
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,600
strategies can work really well.
Yeah. 

379
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,960
And it frankly, if they've been 
effective. 

380
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,760
So if they have some sense of 
mastery already, they have some 

381
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,240
degree of confidence in their 
ability to execute. 

382
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,000
Yeah. 
In the absence of that, yeah, me

383
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,040
just telling you to change. 
Yeah. 

384
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,160
Is is disheartening if you don't
feel, if you feel like you 

385
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,400
fundamentally lack the capacity 
to do so. 

386
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,400
Yeah. 
I took great lab last semester 

387
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,680
and one of the things that 
Angela Duckworth mentioned was 

388
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,560
like, we have these mental 
frameworks we use to motivate 

389
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,600
ourselves. 
And we see this at every level. 

390
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,280
And especially with extremely 
high achievers. 

391
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,760
Like one of the most common 
things you think of is like, 

392
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,000
it's about the journey, not the 
destination. 

393
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,400
And you hear all these highly 
successful people parrot and 

394
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,280
repeat that and you're focused 
on the day-to-day. 

395
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,960
It doesn't matter when you get 
to the end point. 

396
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,320
And she found through research 
that if you've never reached 

397
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,040
that destination, focusing on 
the journey, journey is not 

398
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:46,760
effective. 
You're not motivated. 

399
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,760
It doesn't cause change. 
And so when you're doing this 

400
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,600
for the first time, the 
destination is far more 

401
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,640
motivating and essential in 
getting through that journey at 

402
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:56,440
all. 
That is right. 

403
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,680
Once you've gone to the 
destination, then you can think,

404
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,600
OK, it's about the journey. 
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

405
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,880
But if you've never had that 
success in the 1st place, who 

406
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,520
wants to be continuously stuck 
in the journey? 

407
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:06,880
Like that's what you're trying 
to get out of? 

408
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,400
So it just doesn't motivate 
people. 

409
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,280
That's exactly right. 
And in fact, in DBT, kind of one

410
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:17,040
of the skills we teach clients 
or those in DBT is mastery. 

411
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,440
So we try and set up experiences
for them that are achievable, 

412
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,560
that can help them consistently 
reach that end goal so that they

413
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,680
can start to enjoy the process a
little bit more. 

414
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,120
Because you're absolutely right,
there's a bit of learned 

415
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:33,840
helplessness that has taken 
shape. 

416
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,560
And in the context of that, you 
don't enjoy the process. 

417
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,600
The journey is really painful 
and it doesn't go anywhere. 

418
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,440
It's just a circle. 
We're going to talk about the 

419
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,960
Gen. 
Z mental health crisis, but my 

420
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,240
theory areas like we lack agency
and mastery and that is what 

421
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,760
everything sits upon and why 
everyone's struggling. 

422
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,840
But like, I think that Gen. 
Z feels a huge amount of 

423
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,760
responsibility and capability 
when it comes to like solving 

424
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,880
the world's problems like the 
environment, politics, higher 

425
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,560
education. 
We are more motivated. 

426
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:02,840
We're trying harder for all 
these things. 

427
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,640
Like academics is a completely 
different world. 

428
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,480
Like we're highly motivated and 
we feel the responsibility, but 

429
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,120
I don't think that we have the 
belief that our actions have a 

430
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,760
meaningful outcome on those 
markers. 

431
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,000
And I also think it collapses on
an individual level. 

432
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,400
I don't think Gen. 
Z as individuals has a belief 

433
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,680
that their actions will have a 
meaningful impact on their 

434
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,240
mental health, on their 
relationships, on their 

435
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,720
connections. 
And so without that, everything 

436
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,040
collapses. 
And there's that lack of mastery

437
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,280
when it comes to like, our own 
individual experiences, but also

438
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,320
the world as a whole. 
Yeah, I think that's really, I 

439
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,160
think that's a really smart 
observation. 

440
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,400
And you know, I, I do think some
of it comes back to we're not as

441
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,760
like plugged into like small 
community things anymore either,

442
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,080
right? 
So it's like you're not seeing 

443
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,560
change within your community 
with the with the activities 

444
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,640
that you plug into like the 
social world. 

445
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,480
The Internet is huge. 
You know, in order to get a 

446
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,360
following on TikTok or all the 
other markers that folks are 

447
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:58,400
using now to like see if they're
affecting change are incredibly 

448
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,200
hard to achieve. 
Yeah, 100%. 

449
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,360
OK. 
So validation obviously hugely 

450
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:07,640
effective. 
It sits on this like, balance of

451
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,600
acceptance and change, but how 
do we validate? 

452
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,960
And if people want the full 
thing, they can read the entire 

453
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,640
book and there's all these 
different ways and like all 

454
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,920
these different levels and like,
there's literally endless skills

455
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,000
they can use. 
But for people who are like, OK,

456
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,440
I get it. 
Like I should be validating. 

457
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,120
How do we do that? 
OK, so it's first really 

458
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,520
important to understand what 
validation is, because I think 

459
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,040
this term is horribly understood
and often. 

460
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,480
Misused, but it's now used even 
more, which is like I love, but 

461
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,120
I hate like I was sending you 
all these love is blind videos 

462
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:40,400
and I was like, they're just 
talking about how they're not 

463
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,120
being validated. 
Like they're literally with 

464
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,560
their significant other being 
like you're not validating my 

465
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,360
experience. 
And I'm like, that's not 

466
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:49,200
something that can be validated.
You're gossiping about someone 

467
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,800
else and this isn't validation. 
Yes, yes, yes. 

468
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,840
OK. 
So validation is purely 

469
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,040
communicating that you are 
mindful, you understand and you 

470
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,400
empathize with some part of 
another person's experience and 

471
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,080
thereby accept it as valid. 
OK, so it is seeing validity in 

472
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,120
and let me underline this some 
part, OK, I can validate your 

473
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,200
emotions without validating your
thoughts or behaviors. 

474
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,640
I can validate your thoughts 
without validating your emotions

475
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,720
or behavior and vice versa. 
And this is really important 

476
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,680
because where people struggle 
with validation is in confusing 

477
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,040
it with agreement. 
So we think that I can't 

478
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,680
validate, you know, this 
person's position because I 

479
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,400
don't, I don't agree with it. 
And to that I would say you may 

480
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,160
not agree with their beliefs, 
right, But you can validate the 

481
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,040
emotions they have in response 
to those beliefs. 

482
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,560
And that really is the key to 
validation in in DBT, we talked 

483
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,640
about finding the kernel of 
truth in someone's perspective, 

484
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,800
and that is it. 
And because we are wired to 

485
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,160
focus on what we don't like and 
what we don't agree with, we end

486
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:07,600
up losing that and missing it 
and giving a lot of attention to

487
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,600
the things we don't like rather 
than reinforcing the things we 

488
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,640
can connect with and that can 
lead to connection. 

489
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,840
So if we go through like the 
levels of validation, because 

490
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,920
there's some very easy ways to 
validate someone's experiences 

491
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,400
and then just you can validate a
stranger on the street. 

492
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,200
And then there's others where 
it's like you really need to be 

493
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,400
in a relationship with someone 
to be able to mind read or to be

494
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,480
able to imagine what they'd be 
experiencing or think about 

495
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,080
their lived experiences and how 
that's impacting their emotional

496
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,320
vulnerability. 
At this point. 

497
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,400
It's like, what are these 
different like levels that we 

498
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,720
can validate someone's 
experience and be more and more 

499
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,640
and more effective and making 
them feel seen? 

500
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,080
Yeah, great, great question. 
So I break down. 

501
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,240
I've got 8 skills that yeah, use
that you can use to validate 

502
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,880
someone and they range from sort
of validating to super 

503
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,040
validating. 
And that's just depends on how 

504
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,000
much mindfulness, understanding 
and empathy they can 

505
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,720
communicate. 
And so if I don't understand 

506
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,280
what someone is saying, if I'm 
sitting across from someone 

507
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,440
whose political abuse deeply 
offend me, I'm really only going

508
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,680
to be able to be mindful, right?
And to hopefully engage in a way

509
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,360
that is non judgmental. 
I can, I can work that muscle 

510
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,000
even even if I don't understand 
or empathize. 

511
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,080
And so we talk about just lower 
levels of validation, including 

512
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,760
validation skills that just 
focus on mindfulness. 

513
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,720
And for those we've got 
attending and copying. 

514
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,080
And of the two, copying is my 
favorite because it is freaking 

515
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,680
magic. 
And it is what it sounds like. 

516
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,760
It is just repeating another 
person's position, the words 

517
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,400
that they said, without adding 
your interpretation to it or. 

518
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,760
And this is in so many sitcoms, 
like, there's so many good clips

519
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,760
of this. 
There are the other really cool 

520
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,600
one with copying is body 
language. 

521
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:08,040
So when we copy the gestures 
body language of another person,

522
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,720
we can start to empathize with 
their emotions. 

523
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,240
This is through mirror neurons. 
We are wired to connect with 

524
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:22,080
people in this way. 
As babies, we copy our parents 

525
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,960
facial expressions as a form of 
connecting with them. 

526
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,320
And so we've got study after 
study after study that shows 

527
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:36,040
that simply copying someone's 
behavior or subtle movements, 

528
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:40,560
facial expressions effects how 
we relate to them, the degree to

529
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,640
which we connect with them, and 
interestingly, the degree to 

530
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,360
which they like and connect with
us. 

531
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,520
So that's pretty straightforward
stuff. 

532
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,120
Again, I don't have to agree or 
empathize with somebody in order

533
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:54,480
to do that. 
However, in copying, I often end

534
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,320
up arriving at more 
understanding and empathy. 

535
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,640
Yeah, yeah. 
So that's a very basic one. 

536
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,200
You talk about in the book how 
we shouldn't validate 

537
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,000
inauthentically, like we 
validate what we authentically 

538
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,120
can understand and be non 
judgmental Love. 

539
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:15,200
Can you explain why this is 
'cause we could all like pretend

540
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,160
to copy, we could activate 
situations, we could like pair 

541
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,720
it. 
It makes sense that you feel 

542
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,720
that way. 
Of course you're overwhelmed. 

543
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,040
What happens when we do that and
it's not actually an authentic 

544
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,480
understanding? 
So with the copying stuff, that 

545
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,400
one can be a little bit more 
contrived I would say like you 

546
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,640
can push yourself to just. 
Shift your behavior and then the

547
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,840
thoughts and emotions. 
Change yeah, yeah, where it gets

548
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,880
tricky is when we start looking 
at communicating, understanding,

549
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,960
right. 
So if I was to try and like 

550
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,680
communicate that I see the logic
in what you're saying. 

551
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,400
If I'm faking it, if I don't 
really see it, that does not 

552
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,600
work. 
People feel it even if they 

553
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,600
can't put their finger on it. 
This is like the used car person

554
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,600
example, like you just or 
politician, you get that feeling

555
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,160
of like this person is saying 
all the things I want to hear, 

556
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,960
but it doesn't feel good. 
That's what will happen. 

557
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,240
And that is why you cannot 
unfortunately, fake this, which 

558
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,720
is why you need to actually 
actually develop skills to help 

559
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,760
you do it authentically. 
Because in the absence of that, 

560
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,560
it's it's hard. 
Yeah, yeah. 

561
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,000
I'm curious. 
Validation obviously create such

562
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,920
change in behaviors and 
emotional experience, in our 

563
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,920
ability to connect in 
relationships. 

564
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,800
What need is it meeting like? 
We wouldn't do it, it wouldn't 

565
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,360
feel good, it wouldn't be in 
reinforcing if it wasn't feeling

566
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,760
like some internal experience. 
So what does validation do when 

567
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,880
it comes to like that unmet 
need, especially in mental 

568
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,200
health contexts? 
Yeah, the social psychologist 

569
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,560
Mark Leary has a great quote. 
Human beings differ from animals

570
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:58,400
not so much in our need to 
affiliate, but in our need to be

571
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,640
accepted. 
And I think that really gets to 

572
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,160
it. 
Part of humanity, part of being 

573
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:10,640
human, is this need that we have
to feel seen and heard. 

574
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,040
This is different from feeling 
praised, which we love. 

575
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,360
We like feeling praised, but 
it's subtly different. 

576
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,800
When I feel like somebody sees 
me, understands me, gets me like

577
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:29,360
I'm part of their tribe, that is
as satisfying to me as food in 

578
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,400
some circumstances, right? 
And I think in mental health 

579
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,280
situations, folks are often 
dealing with symptoms that most 

580
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:42,720
people don't understand and 
actually often judge. 

581
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:48,400
And so there's this sense of I 
am alone with this, and there's 

582
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,600
nothing worse than being alone 
in your suffering. 

583
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,000
And I think that's why, 
particularly with folks who have

584
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,080
been exposed to a lot of 
judgment, who are struggling 

585
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,760
with things that other people 
don't relate to, validation is 

586
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,160
so powerful. 
Yeah, and loneliness comes from 

587
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,200
not feeling seen and hurt. 
It's not about who's around you.

588
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,280
It's not about what context 
you're. 

589
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,760
It's not about if you're with 
others. 

590
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,880
And so I think this is another 
element of the experience and we

591
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,760
see this and how Gen. 
Z behaves like we're more vocal 

592
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,080
about our mental health 
experiences. 

593
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,280
We apply more labels, which is a
sign of wanting to feel seen and

594
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,600
being able to attract people 
that feel and identify the same 

595
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,400
way as you. 
And so I, I think that's another

596
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,680
really huge element like you're 
talking about where we don't 

597
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,000
feel seen and heard. 
And again, it's really hard to 

598
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,880
feel seen and heard in these 
larger contexts and when you 

599
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,920
have less relationships. 
So again, the agency, the 

600
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,280
belief, you can get that 
validation reliably. 

601
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,360
Well, and there's another thing 
at play here, which is that, you

602
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,520
know, on the Internet, on social
media platforms, the you are 

603
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:51,920
reinforced for pleasing or 
exceeding people's expectations.

604
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,160
Or going wildly against them and
being very controversial. 

605
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,600
That's right. 
And being invalidated. 

606
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,600
Right, but neither of which is 
you. 

607
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,320
There's a distortion, you know, 
you need to look different, you 

608
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,280
need to present better, you need
to stay something radical. 

609
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,640
And so you're distorting 
yourself in very various ways 

610
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,320
through various real and, you 
know, metaphorical filters. 

611
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,360
But when you do that, the result
is that you don't end up feeling

612
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,400
seen right. 
You end up feeling the pressure 

613
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,480
to keep changing and and keep 
adapting in ways that are hard 

614
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:28,880
to keep up with. 
Yeah. 

615
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,400
So again, validation is not 
praise like a thumbs up and a 

616
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,600
heart emoji. 
That's all praise that says I 

617
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,960
like how you look or perform. 
That's different from saying I 

618
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,440
accept you independent of how 
you look or perform. 

619
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,240
And like you're saying, even if 
someone comments that word for 

620
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:50,120
word, it's still a variation of 
you and you're not being 

621
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,000
validated for your true 
experience. 

622
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,680
You're being validated for that 
changed and altered and 

623
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,560
presented version of yourself. 
Yeah, the filter is getting 

624
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,560
reinforced and then the need to 
have a better or more consistent

625
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,320
filter is the sense that you're 
left with not I'm OK as I am, 

626
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,560
yeah. 
Why do we self invalidate? 

627
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,320
Because we're going to talk 
about like why people don't just

628
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,600
internally validate because 
we're social animals, we have 

629
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,560
social brains. 
There should be something 

630
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,600
internally that we just do 
because it obviously helps our 

631
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,240
relationships. 
But I'm really curious why this 

632
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,560
wouldn't be an internal function
that is just there and working 

633
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,520
and effective. 
Because our mental health is so 

634
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,240
much better when we validate our
own experiences and we 

635
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,520
createspace for these emotions. 
You know that subjectively the 

636
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,800
research supports it. 
So why do people invalidate 

637
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,120
their own experiences and like, 
fight again? 

638
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,120
What's just happening? 
Yeah, as a society, we suck at 

639
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:43,760
modeling self validation. 
Yeah. 

640
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,520
I don't know very many people 
who are good at validating 

641
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,640
themselves, much less doing so 
openly, publicly in front of 

642
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,640
their children in a way that 
models what that would look 

643
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,640
like. 
Yeah, instead we tend to model 

644
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,160
and reinforce problem solving. 
You know, what can we do to make

645
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,640
sure you get on the team next 
year? 

646
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,640
Even if they've already self 
validated though, you only see 

647
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,120
the problem solving. 
Yeah, that's right. 

648
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,560
That's right. 
So as as parents, we are wired 

649
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,600
to solve our children's problems
like that is what we are 

650
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,679
designed to do. 
In so doing, however, we can 

651
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:21,679
often fail to validate the 
emotions, the thoughts that they

652
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,080
have in reaction to those 
experiences. 

653
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:31,080
And we're so focused on changing
what hurts that we fail to 

654
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,800
validate it. 
And therefore the individual 

655
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,719
does not learn how to validate 
the hurt. 

656
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:42,600
They learn to focus on changing 
something in the environment, 

657
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,000
something about themselves, to 
make that feeling go away, as 

658
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,480
though the feeling is bad. 
Yeah, yeah. 

659
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,760
And I think this also goes back 
to what we talked about 

660
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,000
initially where when you find 
something that alleviates the 

661
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,080
emotional experience you're 
drawn to that you do it again 

662
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,640
and again, it's reinforcing 
itself. 

663
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,520
And we like you're saying less 
frequently organically self 

664
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,160
validate and feel that emotional
pain alleviate. 

665
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,000
And so it's not something that 
we're being set up for success 

666
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,800
for to like automatically come 
across reinforce and build into 

667
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,840
part of our identity. 
It's and I can I can just say 

668
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,720
like as a parent, despite having
written the book on validation, 

669
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,080
I I struggle with this is hard. 
Like I am routinely finding 

670
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,560
myself leaning towards problem 
solving when I should be 

671
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,520
validating or having to circle 
back around to validate. 

672
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,440
But I've got to say that having 
developed my own self validation

673
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:44,880
practice, that has been one of 
the greatest contributions to my

674
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,920
ability to validate my daughter 
and model self validation. 

675
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,280
What is the practice you have to
tell us? 

676
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,920
I know, I know. 
It's my book. 

677
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,240
It's like an 8 step process. 
Yeah. 

678
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,960
You need to be able to identify 
what you're feeling and just 

679
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,480
focus on the emotion without 
reinforcing it with the 

680
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,280
narrative that we ascribe to the
emotion and that feeds it and 

681
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,560
keeps it going. 
Don't do that. 

682
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,000
I just want you to feel that 
emotion. 

683
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,640
Feel it as intently as you can. 
It will if you're just focused 

684
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,160
on feeling it go down a little 
bit. 

685
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,200
Once it does, you just want to 
travel down that chain of cause 

686
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,640
and effect to understand how you
got there. 

687
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,360
Just a little. 
Like chain analysis, if you're 

688
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,200
doing DBT to see why am I 
feeling this way? 

689
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,400
Because emotions and thoughts, 
they come from somewhere. 

690
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,240
They come from a valid place. 
You just need to see where. 

691
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,200
And once you've done that, you 
can then choose to self soothe, 

692
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,200
take some action to respond to 
yourself in the same way you 

693
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:45,800
would respond to somebody else 
who is suffering. 

694
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,880
OK. 
I'm curious what you see 

695
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,120
anecdotally with patients 
etcetera from like an identity 

696
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,240
perspective, a mental health 
perspective, relationships. 

697
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:59,920
Even when we chronically self 
invalidate, I imagine it impacts

698
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:04,880
our ability to validate others. 
Certain diagnosis are much more 

699
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,800
synonymous with chronic self 
invalidation. 

700
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,320
Like what happens if we never 
createspace and accept and don't

701
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,280
judge those emotions and beliefs
and thoughts and internal 

702
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:14,440
experiences? 
Yeah. 

703
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,560
Well, this might actually pivot 
a little bit here because I'm 

704
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,400
I'm realizing another, another 
factor to consider in the why we

705
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,560
don't self validate is that not 
only is self validation not 

706
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,080
modelled for us, but many folks 
come from environments that are 

707
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,600
chronically invalidating. 
Yes, OK, where what they are 

708
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,600
thinking or feeling is 
consistently dismissed or 

709
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,560
trivialized. 
And so they don't even develop a

710
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,400
sense of whether or not their 
feelings are valid, and they're 

711
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,880
looking to the environment to 
tell them what they should be 

712
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,560
thinking or feeling because they
don't trust their intuition. 

713
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,320
Yeah. 
You know, we have a lot of 

714
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,000
research on the effects of 
invalidation from the 

715
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,520
environment, and that is some 
nasty stuff. 

716
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,440
OK. 
So that is like the common 

717
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,680
denominator across a lot of 
different mental health 

718
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,000
disorders. 
In other words, the more 

719
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,720
somebody is exposed to 
invalidation, the more likely 

720
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,400
they are to suffer from 
depression, eating disorders, 

721
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,680
even psychopathy. 
All right, this is nasty, nasty 

722
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,680
stuff. 
There is no doubt about it. 

723
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,480
It is directly related to 
conditions like self harm and 

724
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,200
suicidality. 
And So what are the effects of 

725
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,600
that? 
One might even argue are in a 

726
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,680
lot of cases. 
I know it was for mine an 

727
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,680
extreme attempt to get 
validation. 

728
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,080
Not like validation, like 
praise, but I'm in so much pain.

729
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,280
Can you see that I'm suffering? 
Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

730
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,560
And that's actually a really 
good point because I've been 

731
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,640
seeing on social media lately 
all this, this kind of 

732
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,680
judgmental discourse around 
attention seeking and all these 

733
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,720
people saying, oh, she's, you 
know, he, she, they are only 

734
00:38:57,720 --> 00:38:59,600
saying whatever to get 
attention. 

735
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,000
And let's just like stop and 
look at what's going on there, 

736
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,200
OK? 
Because the person who is going 

737
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,080
to Great Lakes to seek 
attention, if they're going to 

738
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,480
the extent of hurting themselves
to get attention, there is 

739
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,880
something deeply wrong there 
that I don't think we should be 

740
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,680
judgmental about. 
That is a very desperate move, 

741
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,880
OK? 
And we don't arrive at that if 

742
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,680
it's not for such serious 
reason. 

743
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,480
And so I think you're right, 
often times folks start to 

744
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,480
innately aggrandize what they're
experiencing so that other 

745
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,040
people can, you're kind of 
trying to put it in terms that 

746
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,200
they can understand because 
they're not responding to what 

747
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,400
you're saying otherwise. 
Externalizing it in a. 

748
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,720
Lot of ways that's right. 
Yeah, yeah. 

749
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,840
And this is something that I 
learned from you, which is that 

750
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,080
while the emotion is always 
valid, it's not always 

751
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,600
justified. 
It's not always a proportionate 

752
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,200
response, It's not always 
effective. 

753
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,120
And so even though we might not 
validate the behavior or the 

754
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,920
belief or the thought that would
lead to that outcome. 

755
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,320
The emotion itself is valid. 
Again, it's might not be 

756
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,080
proportionate, it might not be 
effective, it's maybe not a path

757
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,640
forward, but it doesn't change 
the emotional experience itself.

758
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,160
We have to createspace for it 
and non judge mentally interact 

759
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,000
with it or nothing else ever 
changes. 

760
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,000
Yeah, I, I say that a lot, 
especially when I'm teaching 

761
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,560
validation for most people. 
Like, unless you're at the 

762
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,480
psychologist, basically don't 
get in the business of telling 

763
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,200
people that they don't feel what
they're telling you they feel 

764
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,920
all right. 
Like, do not minimize other 

765
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,320
people's emotions. 
It does not not turn out well. 

766
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,000
That's different. 
Like you don't have to reinforce

767
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,600
their behavior, right? 
Like somebody who is engaging in

768
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,120
self harm to get some sense of 
validation and feeling seen in 

769
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,400
their suffering. 
That is super not effective, 

770
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,440
right? 
I'm not going to reinforce that 

771
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:55,760
behavior. 
I'm not going to give it 

772
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,480
attention. 
I will validate their suffering 

773
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,680
outside of that, but not in 
connection to that, that 

774
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,560
behavior, or that incident. 
It's a very important 

775
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,920
distinction. 
I think a lot of people that are

776
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,000
listening to this podcast and 
seeking out mental health 

777
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,080
resources, they're in that camp 
where we're not like low level. 

778
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,560
Yeah, let's just validate. 
It's like, I want to shift these

779
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,640
behaviors. 
These things aren't effective. 

780
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,480
And so there's a lot of nuance 
there and that clarity of like, 

781
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,760
what do we validate in these 
extremely challenging, high 

782
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,320
suffering, very distressing 
moments, whether it's your own 

783
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,280
experience or a child's, a 
friend, a peer, a parent, 

784
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,080
whatever it is. 
And and that nuance is is hard 

785
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,240
to master, but really important 
to understand. 

786
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:40,400
Yeah, let me give an example of 
that because I think we see this

787
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,840
with self harm and I think 
friends of folks who are self 

788
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,600
harming, parents, relatives, 
this is some really tricky 

789
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,720
space. 
And So what I do as a DBT 

790
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,680
therapist upfront with clients 
who are self harming or suicidal

791
00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:00,800
is to say I care about you way 
too much to risk reinforcing 

792
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,080
that behaviour. 
And to be clear, that's not to 

793
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,400
say you're doing it to get 
attention from me. 

794
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,800
However, attention is 
reinforcing and so it could 

795
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,000
subconsciously have that effect 
on you. 

796
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,960
And I can't let that happen. 
That is my responsibility and I 

797
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,400
care about you way too much to 
to do that or risk doing that. 

798
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:27,000
So if you self harm, I am not, 
and this is kind of a rule 

799
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,600
within DBT as a therapist, I 
don't speak to my clients for 

800
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,440
24. 
There's a, we have the 24 hour 

801
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,040
rule, which means that if you 
engage in self harm or a suicide

802
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,840
attempt, you're not going to get
attention from me for 24 hours. 

803
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,760
If it's a, if it's a real 
situation and I need to call in 

804
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,960
the police or EMTs, I will do 
that. 

805
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,520
But it's clear that they are not
going to get a happy, sunny 

806
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,520
version of me. 
However, if they reach out to me

807
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,720
beforehand right as the 
therapist. 

808
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:04,320
Again, this is the therapist 
role, not a parent or a friends.

809
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,440
But I I'm willing to jump in 
there. 

810
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,520
None of that is to say that I 
don't take their suffering 

811
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,720
seriously. 
On the contrary, I'm saying I 

812
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:18,440
take it so seriously that I 
don't want to do anything that 

813
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,080
might make this worse for you 
because it's already so painful.

814
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,440
And if I feed into a cycle 
that's even worse and more 

815
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,400
dangerous, what good am I doing 
You? 

816
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,400
So that's an example of like I 
can validate the emotion without

817
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,400
reinforcing the behavior. 
Yeah. 

818
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,480
I want to follow up on that 
because this is something that's

819
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,120
so unique to DBT. 
And again, it's that extremely 

820
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,720
distressing experience that most
of us don't go through. 

821
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:46,360
And so when parents or friends 
or even yourself is put in this 

822
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,360
position, you just don't know 
how to navigate it. 

823
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,200
And if it's ongoing mental 
health challenges, not 

824
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,000
reinforcing these things is 
paramount. 

825
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,640
And so in DBT, the 24 hour rule,
it's mean, it's widely accepted,

826
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,280
all clinicians practice it. 
It's something that they know 

827
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,800
works. 
And I think people listening, 

828
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,320
and if you're the one who has a 
peer, friend, family member, 

829
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,120
etcetera, who's going through 
this, your internal dialogue is 

830
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,400
probably like, but they're 
struggling so much right now. 

831
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:14,480
They're at their lowest of 
points. 

832
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,160
How could I possibly withdraw 
from this relationship? 

833
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:18,320
Isn't that going to make it 
worse? 

834
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,000
And so obviously the role that 
the therapist plays is 

835
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,600
different. 
But I think this is something 

836
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,400
that people don't talk about in 
these crisis moments. 

837
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,040
And I want to get your 
perspective there about how you 

838
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,640
navigate that without 
reinforcing but also validating 

839
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,480
the experience, because 
especially if it's invalidated 

840
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,120
and these crises keep happening 
to get validation and support 

841
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:39,320
and connection. 
Yes. 

842
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,000
How do you even go about that? 
Yeah. 

843
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,400
So one thing I did there is I 
have these conversations outside

844
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,720
of a crisis. 
Yeah, OK. 

845
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:47,520
So that is critical. 
So I'm not. 

846
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,240
Waiting one. 
Yeah, exactly. 

847
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,000
Yeah, there's a 24 hour rule. 
Right. 

848
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,840
And so if this is a friend or a 
family member, same rules apply 

849
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,200
You don't want to wait for a 
crisis to erupt to be like, by 

850
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,080
the way, here's my line in the 
sand. 

851
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,000
You know, like, good luck. 
Blocked. 

852
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,720
Yeah, that's horrible. 
So having some communication 

853
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,280
about that upfront. 
The other thing for friends and 

854
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,800
family to consider is that as 
fabulous, loving and supportive 

855
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,560
as you are, it's probably not as
effective as that person getting

856
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,800
the treatment they need. 
And so if you are serving that 

857
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,200
function right, if you are the 
person who's absorbing a lot of 

858
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,120
that distress in those moments, 
you could be getting in the way 

859
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,160
of them getting help. 
And So what I really encourage 

860
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,720
folks to say is that like, I 
will do whatever I can just to 

861
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:43,480
help you get services. 
Here's crisis lines, texting, 

862
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,200
like, like all of these other 
resources that can have you get 

863
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,600
the support you need in those 
extreme periods of crisis 

864
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,720
because I care about you. 
And I don't know how to manage 

865
00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:56,560
that. 
Like, I don't know what I would 

866
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,800
be reinforcing or not 
reinforcing like that is so 

867
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,440
unfair to you as your friend, as
someone who loves you. 

868
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,520
The best thing I can do is 
support you in getting help, not

869
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,480
pretend to be that support or 
pretend to be that therapist 

870
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,640
when I don't know how to do 
that. 

871
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:21,800
So what is the line of we are in
crisis and I'm actually doing 

872
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,760
you a disservice by being the 
person here rather than a 

873
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,000
professional. 
And also what do you do? 

874
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:30,160
Obviously this probably is like 
something you hear from your 

875
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,960
clients, but you're a 
professional, so you're not in 

876
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,280
this position directly. 
When they don't have a therapist

877
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,720
or they don't have ongoing 
treatment, they're not already 

878
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,040
in DBT. 
So it's like I think a lot of 

879
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,440
people are in this position 
where they're like, they 

880
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:43,960
literally feel backed into a 
corner. 

881
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,360
I'm the friends only resources, 
especially the teen, their 

882
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,800
parents don't get it. 
They can't talk to the teacher 

883
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,520
or the school counselor will 
call their family. 

884
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,560
I'm their only lifeline. 
And like I can't express enough 

885
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,000
how ineffective and not true 
that is. 

886
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,000
And it just again, puts both 
people in such a tough spot. 

887
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,800
But like, what's the line? 
How do you navigate? 

888
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,000
And like now my motto's like not
my monkeys, not my problems 

889
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,760
we're going to cause, but like 
the first time you're 

890
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,520
experiencing it, this, you're 
literally like, it's life and 

891
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:09,160
death. 
What do I do? 

892
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
I actually want to validate 

893
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,720
there's something very true to 
the sense that like if you guys 

894
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,360
have a very special connection, 
a very special relationship, 

895
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,560
there is something that you can 
do for that person that it feels

896
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,080
like nobody else can do. 
And that is a very sacred thing.

897
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,960
And it would feel like a 
complete betrayal or judge 

898
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,760
mental to be like, I'm not 
dealing with this. 

899
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,520
That being said, you know, if 
this is kind of like your first 

900
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,080
interaction with this, you have 
no idea that the person is 

901
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,440
struggling in this way and they 
clue you into it and you're in 

902
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,120
the middle of it. 
It's again. 

903
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,240
It's unfortunately oftentimes. 
Oftentimes. 

904
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:44,760
So in those situations, you just
get through that first. 

905
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,960
You know, you talk them through 
it, whatever afterward, it's 

906
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,280
like the next opportunity is 
this conversation about like, I 

907
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,600
need you to get help. 
I cannot I I will not let you 

908
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,600
suffer like this without getting
help. 

909
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,800
And if the person says, you 
know, well, so I don't have any 

910
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,360
resources, I can't go to a 
therapist. 

911
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,160
I can't go to with this. 
I would again, like, let's look 

912
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,160
at crisis lines. 
All right, let's look at free 

913
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,040
services. 
And if it's a if it's a friend, 

914
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,560
it's like, do you want me to 
talk to your parents perhaps? 

915
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:21,040
Is there any way I can do it? 
But what I know for sure is that

916
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:26,240
you being in this state 
untreated is so unfair for you. 

917
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,440
Yeah, yeah. 
And I also think what you said 

918
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,880
there that that relationship is 
so special if they're going to 

919
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,640
you in that point and if you 
have to be really honest with 

920
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,240
yourself and in somewhat of an 
objective position to ask 

921
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:39,680
herself, how much do I care 
about this person? 

922
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,560
And if I really do care about 
their well-being in their long 

923
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,760
term mental health, you have to 
have that radical acceptance and

924
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,240
honesty around me. 
Filling this need is doing them 

925
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:53,560
a disservice. 
And there's no way to get like 

926
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:54,960
there's. 
That's just the truth. 

927
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,360
Yeah, there's another, again, 
very valid, you know, reality 

928
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,640
here that we're not speaking to,
which is that frankly, getting 

929
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,280
mental health care sucks and 
it's very difficult. 

930
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,560
And it's shown that like people 
that are go to treatment 

931
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,160
involuntarily after disclosing 
suicidal ID, they're less likely

932
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,440
to be transparent, They have 
less trust for providers going 

933
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,360
forward. 
So again, negative 

934
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,040
reinforcement, lack of 
validation can create problems. 

935
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,400
Yes. 
So what do, what do we do with 

936
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,720
that? 
I mean, that's a very 

937
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:27,880
unfortunate reality, but it is 
the reality. 

938
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,120
And so we need to think about 
that. 

939
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,120
What we do know is that there 
are crisis lines and support 

940
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,880
systems that are free and are 
available. 

941
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,680
And effective research backed, 
professional trained. 

942
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,000
Yeah. 
At the very at least these folks

943
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,280
are trained in basic protocols 
for navigating crisis, which I 

944
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,960
don't care how great of a friend
you are or how much relief your 

945
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,680
friend or, you know, partner or 
whatever appears to have after 

946
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,400
speaking with you, you don't 
know what you're doing. 

947
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,400
And that is problematic in ways 
that you can't even appreciate. 

948
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:05,240
And so at the very least, at the
very least, I would ask them to 

949
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,000
reach out to a crisis line, have
those numbers for them. 

950
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,560
It's it's a process supporting 
someone in finding treatment, 

951
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:18,960
but let that be the focus, not 
serving as their therapist, but 

952
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,960
helping them get help, helping 
them through that process, 

953
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:23,640
validating them through that 
process. 

954
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,320
That is the role you can and 
should play. 

955
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,280
So obviously these we're talking
about ways that people are 

956
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,800
searching for validation, trying
to get it from other people. 

957
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,160
We talked about this at the 
beginning that validation is not

958
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,120
searching for praise. 
If we get back to like these 

959
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,000
day-to-day examples, why should 
we look for validation even to 

960
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,560
like avoid these really extreme 
attempts to gain it and feel 

961
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,120
that acceptance and belonging? 
Like, why is it so important 

962
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,600
that we actually seek that out 
instead of just like, waiting 

963
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,480
for it organically to hopefully 
come to us? 

964
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,240
Like, why should we as 
individuals seek validation? 

965
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,920
I love this question because 
there's so much discourse. 

966
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:58,760
Yeah. 
And there's there's this whole 

967
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,000
like motto. 
And mail validation also is 

968
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,400
like, just not like. 
It's not a like, that's not what

969
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,520
validation means. 
No, because again, that's 

970
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,920
looking for approval, right? 
That's liking, that's praise. 

971
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,560
That's not. 
That's not validation. 

972
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,240
If we were actually just looking
for validation from males, I'd 

973
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:16,400
probably felt like a lot of like
the male loneliness crisis. 

974
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,440
They'd feel more sense of 
purpose, they'd be more 

975
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,080
connected, less like that'd be 
great. 

976
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,440
Like if they we were truly 
searching for male validation. 

977
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,920
Like bye bye depressed. 
Yes, exactly. 

978
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,200
Exactly. 
Again, that's not what people 

979
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:27,240
are looking. 
For that's not what they're 

980
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:30,600
looking for. 
So seeking when I say seeking 

981
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,600
external validation, if that 
like makes you cringe or go 

982
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,840
what? 
Just like flip it with seeking 

983
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,520
acceptance or being seen and 
heard. 

984
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:44,760
OK, I want you to have 
relationships in which you feel 

985
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,920
seen and heard. 
And that should, that is a 

986
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,520
reasonable thing to expect from 
your relationships and you 

987
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,360
deserve that. 
You should have that. 

988
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,360
And if you don't, and if you're 
settling for something else, 

989
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,120
that's when things get 
problematic. 

990
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,440
That said, within those 
relationships, people aren't 

991
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,080
mind readers. 
And we are all, as we've 

992
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,120
discussed as a result of our 
culture and upbringing, really 

993
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,000
focused on solving problems. 
And so within our relationships,

994
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,960
when we come to our friends, 
family, partners with problems 

995
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,200
and they try to solve them, 
that's understandable. 

996
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:24,160
What I hope what I want for 
folks is to have the language to

997
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,560
be able to say what I need in 
this moment is validation, not 

998
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,720
problem solving. 
So it's like the most like 

999
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:32,240
common thing that's set in my 
house. 

1000
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:34,000
Like, are you looking for 
validation or problem solving? 

1001
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,520
Because sometimes I do just want
to know how to, you know, 

1002
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,280
resolve whatever the issue is. 
A lot of the time what I want is

1003
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,160
validation. 
And I trust that the people who 

1004
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,680
love me want to support me and 
they just may not know how in 

1005
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,320
that moment. 
And that's fine. 

1006
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,400
I can ask for what I need so 
long is that it's clear on what 

1007
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,360
that ask is. 
We talked about there's like low

1008
00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:00,680
levels of validation and they 
feel less great than like these 

1009
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,840
really. 
I feel truly seen and heard and 

1010
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,200
understood. 
And you have to meet in the 

1011
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,640
middle because if you're not 
articulating your experience and

1012
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,240
sharing that they can't 
validate. 

1013
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,840
Like they're my reading, they're
guessing it might work, it might

1014
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,440
not land, who knows. 
And so I think when people that 

1015
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,000
teens and young adults 
especially struggle with, 

1016
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,120
whether it's with their friends 
or their parents or people who 

1017
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,480
haven't experienced mental 
health challenges, is getting 

1018
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,960
that lived experience validated 
because it's so foreign. 

1019
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,640
And yes, we can validate the 
emotions and the thoughts, but 

1020
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,800
being able to articulate that so
they can think, wow, I didn't 

1021
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,360
even realize that's what your 
day-to-day looked like. 

1022
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,800
I didn't even realize that we're
functioning with like completely

1023
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,800
different perspectives. 
And so I'm wondering if you have

1024
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,960
any effective examples or 
metaphors to explain that lived 

1025
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,200
experience of really suffering 
with your mental health and 

1026
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,160
explaining that to someone who's
never been depressed like a day 

1027
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:50,680
in their life. 
Yeah. 

1028
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,000
So one metaphor I use, and these
are, these are kind of extreme, 

1029
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,480
but it would be like like if you
had your hand on a burning 

1030
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,720
stove, all you would be able to 
think about is getting your hand

1031
00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:04,520
off that stove. 
Yeah, not what you were going to

1032
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,400
wear to the party not getting 
your math assignment done. 

1033
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,400
It would be hard to focus on 
anything else other than. 

1034
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,520
How others are perceiving you. 
How you're causing stress to 

1035
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:15,440
their life. 
Right. 

1036
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,800
Like you can't, you can't see 
clearly in that amount of pain. 

1037
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,880
We can, we can understand that 
because we've all experienced 

1038
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,440
physical pain. 
So I think that's a helpful 

1039
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,920
framework like it. 
And as someone who struggled 

1040
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:33,400
with depression and frankly, 
cancer, I, I can say that the 

1041
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,800
depression was in many ways so 
much harder. 

1042
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,520
Wow. 
Than the breast cancer people 

1043
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,680
understood. 
Breast cancer people empathized 

1044
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,800
and reached out and were 
supportive in ways that I 

1045
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,520
needed. 
When I had breast cancer, when 

1046
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:57,560
it was depression, I experienced
much more judgement, much more 

1047
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,200
folks internalizing me, not 
showing up. 

1048
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,120
And that was confusing and 
painful. 

1049
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,000
Yeah. 
One thing that you talk in your 

1050
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:11,240
book about is how, and this is 
one of like the biggest thing 

1051
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:16,040
I've learned working together is
the value that suffering can add

1052
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,080
to our lives and that sense of 
purpose and the gift that it can

1053
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,760
be in our ability to connect 
with others. 

1054
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,320
And this is something that you 
don't want to hear when you're 

1055
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,320
in the depths of it. 
Like you hear it in the depths 

1056
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,760
and you're like, literally, I 
can't go away. 

1057
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,280
It's not validating, it's not 
effective, it's invalidating. 

1058
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,400
But when you're have these 
accumulated sense of mastery, 

1059
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,360
your agencies back intact, maybe
you're on the other side of it. 

1060
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,600
There's this whole new lens that
you can see the world through. 

1061
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:46,240
And I'd love if you could speak 
to that, what these experiences 

1062
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:51,280
and periods of suffering allow 
us to connect with others, 

1063
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,720
validate, etcetera. 
Like this gift that it can be. 

1064
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,480
This is is probably the most 
kind of important or 

1065
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,440
fundamental. 
I don't know. 

1066
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,000
If it's a belief, sure, let's 
call it a belief that I have. 

1067
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,480
Like a guiding principle. 
Yes, which is that you have to 

1068
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,560
make meaning out of suffering. 
If you don't, it's just 

1069
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,080
suffering and it was for 
nothing. 

1070
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:21,280
If you do, then you grow through
it or you help others as a 

1071
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,360
result of it, but it's not for 
nothing. 

1072
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,160
And that is a choice we have to 
make. 

1073
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:34,600
And I do believe that everybody 
can make that choice in some 

1074
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,160
way, shape or form. 
And, and my experience has been,

1075
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:41,440
you know, in, in writing this 
book, I was looking back, I, I 

1076
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,960
speak a lot about, you know, 
the, my personal stuff. 

1077
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:48,040
And people have left comments 
being like, Oh my gosh, like 

1078
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,440
she, she's gone through so much.
Like there's like almost a sense

1079
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,840
of like pity or something and 
I'm like, Oh my God, that is 

1080
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,440
like not you missed. 
The point? 

1081
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,480
Yeah, that's not my perspective 
at all. 

1082
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,480
It's not. 
I can see how you can look at 

1083
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,000
some of the that stuff and think
like, oh, that's horrible. 

1084
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,040
But, and I never thought I would
say this, but I'm grateful that 

1085
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,840
I struggled with depression to 
the extent that I did because I 

1086
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:17,720
am able to connect with people. 
I understand that experience and

1087
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,840
mental health problems in a way 
that many other clinicians do 

1088
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,120
not. 
And that is a freaking gift. 

1089
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,080
It's a gift I wished I'd 
received when I was in that 

1090
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,280
situation myself. 
And it is a gift that I am 

1091
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:35,280
forever grateful to be able to 
give to those I connect with. 

1092
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,120
And I try to do the same thing. 
I mean, it was what got me 

1093
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,320
through cancer. 
Like the day after I was 

1094
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,240
diagnosed, I told my husband we 
are like going to adopt some 

1095
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,240
kittens or we're going to go 
foster some kittens. 

1096
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,600
Like this is, which seemed very 
unrelated cancer in kittens, but

1097
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,280
like I just needed something 
that I wouldn't have other 

1098
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,360
otherwise done. 
Like, OK, now I'm going to do 

1099
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,720
this because of the cancer. 
These kittens are going to have 

1100
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,360
a better life. 
And like, for me, it has to be a

1101
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:06,320
very one to one in that way. 
And that has been everything. 

1102
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,760
Yeah. 
You talk about choice points 

1103
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,560
with turning suffering into 
purpose and meaning, going back 

1104
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,400
to one of these like life coach,
More change base, less 

1105
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,200
acceptancy. 
The idea that pain is 

1106
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,840
inevitable, suffering is 
avoidable, and suffering is 

1107
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,200
choosing to prolong pain. 
What do you think about that? 

1108
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,400
I 'cause I don't love it. 
Yeah, I don't love it 'cause 

1109
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,200
there's, there's also a lot to 
be said around like, you know, 

1110
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:29,880
there's that. 
I'm sure you've heard of this. 

1111
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,160
Pain plus resistance equals 
suffering. 

1112
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,880
You know, pain on its own. 
It's just pain. 

1113
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,760
There's there's truth to that, 
but like, let's not sugarcoat 

1114
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,840
it. 
Suffering sucks, OK? 

1115
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:45,240
Like it by definition it sucks 
and that is OK. 

1116
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,000
We can accept that. 
You should accept that. 

1117
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,640
Like don't lie to yourself. 
Don't judge yourself for 

1118
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,680
struggling and for suffering. 
Like that's what it is. 

1119
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,120
It's suffering. 
The choice is simply in what you

1120
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,000
do with that energy. 
And this is going to sound like 

1121
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,960
weird and metaphysical, but like
I really believe that like, you 

1122
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:08,640
know, when some energy is never,
it's not destroyed, you have to 

1123
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,400
do something with that. 
And if you don't, that 

1124
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:17,320
negativity will eat at you. 
It will break you down, it will 

1125
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,640
make you smaller. 
But if you can direct it at 

1126
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:25,400
something with intention, it can
also heal. 

1127
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:31,160
It can also love. 
It can also support in ways that

1128
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,240
you otherwise perhaps wouldn't 
have thought to. 

1129
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,880
OK, 3 rapid fire questions for 
you to wrap things up. 

1130
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,000
What is the hardest thing you've
had to validate? 

1131
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,000
Oh my gosh. 
So two things. 

1132
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:46,120
One, in my in my professional 
life as a psychologist, I would 

1133
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:50,080
say when you're working with 
folks who have psychosis and 

1134
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,760
they're there's just such a 
different reality. 

1135
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,960
Like they are literally 
believing and seeing and hearing

1136
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,560
things that are not there. 
That can be a very tricky 

1137
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:02,160
situation. 
Where's? 

1138
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:03,840
The truth and the situation to 
validate. 

1139
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:05,560
Right. 
And usually there it's just the 

1140
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,640
emotions, like I don't 
understand, like there's not an 

1141
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,720
alien invasion going on. 
But I can understand why you 

1142
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,160
would be afraid you're so 
distressed. 

1143
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,280
Yeah, if that's what you think. 
Similarly, I would say, you 

1144
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,600
know, these last few years with 
folks on on the topic of 

1145
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,600
politics and folks that I love 
and care about. 

1146
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:29,320
Who believe things that in my 
opinion, at times feel as 

1147
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,880
radical, almost like it it it 
feels the same in my body as 

1148
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,560
those moments when I'm sitting 
across from somebody who is like

1149
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:38,360
we. 
Are not seeing the same facts. 

1150
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:42,680
We are not in the same reality. 
And so in those situations, the 

1151
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:47,080
interesting thing is the 
schizophrenic is actually so 

1152
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:53,080
much easier because it's not 
like a direct threat to me. 

1153
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,800
And that is a really important 
thing to recognize that part of 

1154
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,720
what we're responding to when 
we're struggling in those 

1155
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,320
moments to validate people in 
our life is the threat that they

1156
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:07,640
present. 
There's this fear of of what's 

1157
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,840
going to happen to us, to our 
relationship, what their beliefs

1158
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,520
are going to do to the world, 
and that really impedes my 

1159
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,520
ability to see any validity in 
their experience. 

1160
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:19,240
And then it goes back to the 
oxygen mask, right? 

1161
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,600
Like you can help others as much
as you've helped yourself if you

1162
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,160
don't self valid out. 
Like wow, this feels like a 

1163
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,200
direct threat to me. 
I have emotions coming up. 

1164
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,200
You can't validate theirs. 
Exactly. 

1165
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,360
No, that's a really good point. 
Like just noticing. 

1166
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,000
OK, this is hitting me. 
This is scaring me. 

1167
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,280
Usually what we notice is the 
anger. 

1168
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:40,000
Yeah. 
But I, yeah, what's almost 

1169
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,040
always anger comes down to some 
degree of feeling threatened or 

1170
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,400
afraid. 
And so I try to identify pretty 

1171
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,480
quickly, what am I afraid of 
losing here? 

1172
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,440
What's at stake? 
The second one is what do you 

1173
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,080
think Gen. 
Z should know about validation? 

1174
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,480
Like what are they lacking? 
If you could wave your wand and 

1175
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,400
Gen. 
Z was like mass equipped with 

1176
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,600
this insight or skill, our 
mental health crisis generation 

1177
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,480
about to inherit all these 
problems. 

1178
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:06,960
Yeah, yeah. 
A lot of really interesting, 

1179
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,280
unique and invalidating 
messaging coming at us. 

1180
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,760
Yeah, I want to just protect 
Gen. 

1181
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:19,960
Z from the just distinguishing 
the need for being seen and 

1182
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:26,680
accepted from being liked and 
judged positively and followed 

1183
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,160
like that. 
That feels good. 

1184
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,200
There's a little dopamine hit 
there, but you cannot build your

1185
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,080
life around it. 
It's it's not, you're not being 

1186
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,920
seen in that. 
And so if, if I if folks would 

1187
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,440
understand that and then also 
have the skills to validate 

1188
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,720
themselves, seek validation in 
their relationships, that is 

1189
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:47,840
what I would want for Gen. 
Z. 

1190
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,360
If people leave this 
conversation an episode with 

1191
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,400
like one line that they only use
that to validate for the rest of

1192
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:57,720
their lives, what would it be? 
You know, as opposed to one 

1193
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,560
line, I think I would think of 
one question when someone comes 

1194
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,600
to you with an issue or a 
situation or even with yourself,

1195
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,440
to just pause for a second and 
think, do I respond with 

1196
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:11,360
validation or problem solving? 
Yeah, 'cause 9 times out of 10, 

1197
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,080
we tend to respond with problem 
solving, and nine times out of 

1198
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:18,400
10, people just want to feel 
seen and heard in whatever it is

1199
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,840
that they're experiencing. 
That that's not to say that you 

1200
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,920
don't get to, you know, a few 
sentences later, jump in with 

1201
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,040
some suggestions. 
But don't say, but say and. 

1202
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:33,040
But the that that validation has
to be where you open. 

1203
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,960
That has to be, you know, not 
always, but at least if you can 

1204
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:39,040
pause and just even think in 
those terms, I think you will be

1205
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,200
light years more effective. 
Yeah. 

1206
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:45,240
Well, where can people follow 
along, get the book, learn 

1207
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:47,360
everything about validation, all
the things? 

1208
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:51,520
Yes, so my book is available 
wherever you get books right 

1209
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:53,920
everywhere. 
You can check out my website, 

1210
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,760
doctorcarolinefleck.com. 
And I hope to have, you know, 

1211
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:59,920
relatively soon, I hope to have 
a course up to kind of 

1212
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:03,160
supplement the book and to 
solidify some of this stuff. 

1213
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,080
Amazing. 
Oh and I'm I guess I'm on yes, 

1214
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,360
Instagram. 
I forgot searching for neither 

1215
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,880
praise or validation because 
it's effective and not effective

1216
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,280
in that context, yes. 
Yes, you can find me on 

1217
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:16,840
Instagram and tick. 
Tock is amazing. 

1218
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:18,200
All of that will be in the show 
notes. 

1219
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:19,200
Thank you for joining me.