Welcome back to. Nevertheless.
She persisted a podcast with Sadie Sutton.
Today, I'm here. My bad.
Hello. See, hi Dad, and we're going to
talk about what his experience was as I was going through
depression and anxiety and what he has to offer to other parents
advice, all that kind of stuff. See ya.
This Aaron. Yeah, good time.
Is there anything you must start with?
I'm just looking forward to the conversation.
Okay. All righty, and we're also
joined by Posey, the doggy. Okay.
So is there anything you want to share about yourself?
Before we start? Well, part of the most important
things, your dad, and that obviously it's been a really
important to plus years, two and a half years in terms of your
growth and our growth as a family.
And so I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Cool. so first question is pretty broad, but tell me about
your perception of me while I was living at home and what your
experience of my mental illness and its progression was like,
well, the I'll start where we started to notice that clearly
there were changes and this goes back, we meaning your mom and
myself ain't so and myself. So this would have been the
first probably too late January of your eighth grade year.
And so that's where at least I started to notice it.
Mommy. I bet started to notice it
earlier because she's more perceptive about these things,
but I noticed it when we head out of town guests for dinner,
who came over for dinner and they had kids that were very
similar to your age and your siblings a Is so what would
normally have been a situation where the adult sit down and
trade stories and the kids go off and have fun together was
not that because you never came out of your room.
And so do you remember this? That was a clue to me that.
Wow, this is definitely unusual. And yeah because everybody else
had a great time and everybody else was enjoying the company,
but you weren't. And I do remember that I had to
go up and ask you to come down even for dinner, much less to
socialize with our guests. And that was definitely
something. I noticed that was just, you
know, I didn't understand why it was happening.
I just knew that it was something that was very unusual.
And I took, I interpreted as well.
This is not being very respectful or welcoming work.
Guess I had any understanding or appreciation for the fact that
you were suffering and that what was really going on was
depression. And so that was my first, That
something was up. I have no idea because I wasn't
educated in this at all. But that was my first.
I'd say perception. That something wasn't quite
right in January of your eighth grade year.
Gotcha. So what was as it, I like my
depression got worse and I was more depressed and that started
to affect a small. What was that?
Like It's like Dad knowing that your daughter was going through
that. You know, I'd say that in the
beginning again. I didn't have the tools myself
to really be helpful to really, sort of be the best participant
in all this. I unfortunately was, you know, a
much more focused on. Let me see if I can solve this
for you. Let me see if I can sort of drag
you out of this. And what I mean by that
specifically is and you remember this, I'm sure say he were, you
would have a tough time getting on.
School and rather than taking a deep breath and validating.
What it was, you must have been feeling.
I Instead try to cajole you out of bed.
I would try and tell you. Hey, it's really important that
you get to school because this is an important moment in your
life academically and he's all cut all things over
well-intentioned but unfortunately of zero help to
you. And so so I'd say that, you know
what, I should have been doing and I learn this until we got
help from people. That really knew what was going
on is to validate first and foremost and to be able to say I
can just see that you're suffering.
I can I can sense that you're suffering given that you're not.
The kind of person that doesn't get out of bed for school in the
morning. And so, this is very unusual for
you. And first and foremost, you must
be suffering. And I want you to know that, I
know you're suffering. These are things that I just.
It wasn't part of my toolkit is last thing on my My major to
write my kind of courses of action, for lack of a better
word. So so anyway, so that sort of
began, I think a bit of a period where, you know, your mom and me
were ham-fisted in terms of how to handle this wanted to do kind
of everything possible to help you.
But unfortunately this is new for us and it was new territory
and not surprisingly. We acted like rookies through
this and probably weren't very helpful to you.
And But eventually, you know, we got some some advice and help
and, and skills. Thanks.
A lot of good. People be shocked about a lot
about like running out of validate understand and Kind of
meeting me where I was at a lot that you like learned.
Is that the question is, what have you learned in the past
year? Would you say that's the main
thing? That's the first thing?
Yes. Is the, this is the brief
answer. I think thing that I learned the
most throughout this. These last two and a half years
has been the importance of validation, you know, there's a
whole book of other insights and things that we've been very
thankful to learn. And I would say that the most
important thing that Continue to take away is the importance of
validation, and I'd say that that was something.
I just didn't, I didn't really kind of even understand or
appreciate probably for the first year.
Yeah, but but I do remember in my visits to Boston and sitting
in those sessions with blaze and his organization in terms of
apparent, Monday, meetings that went on.
That's where I learned the importance of validation.
Hmm. So I went to Boston and left
being home. What was that like to send me
away? So it's a parent, it's tough
because, you know, you grow up as, you know, I grew up as for
the big family and everybody was always at home in terms of the
kids. And then the only time, the kids
leave the house is kind of consistent basis is when you go
off to college. And so for me, I never
Dissipated that idea situation where I would be having an
offspring, a kid go off or anything other than college.
So. So just when that topic was
raised to us that that people thought that might be the best
thing for you and your mental health and being able to develop
the skills, to be able to navigate depression and anxiety,
you know, it wasn't anything that I expected anticipated or
Canon they wanted and but It said after a pretty long period
where you were suffering and clearly things were not
progressing forward. It was more like one step
forward, two steps back. Two steps forward, one step
back. It was treading water is
probably the best way to describe it over the course of a
year that when it was a very clear recommendation from really
skilled service providers and professionals here in our home
area said, we really think the right thing for sale.
Would be to go to one of these programs where they're really
good at this. And, and so, it was one of those
things where it wasn't anything that we thought would be in our
future. But eventually when it was
actually teed up to us on the heels of a year year and a half
of seeing you struggle, that that's when we took a deep
breath and said, well, these people really know what they're
doing and they're clearly focused on what's best for
safety and what's best for our family and we took some time.
I'm to think about it eventually.
We took their recommendation. I'm really glad you did.
But yeah, I'm sure we'll get to. But, but that was scary for us
because that was not something. I think any parent really thinks
about never doing when they have an eighth-grader.
It's just not something that ever comes up.
Yeah, so I had been gone for the past year and a half, two years.
Was that like not having me at home?
It's incomplete is probably the best way to describe it.
It's like missing a key piece of the puzzle, a very big piece of
the puzzle. So so it's one of those things
where you just always know. There's one in, d.c.
At the dinner table. There's one empty seat in the
car. There's your never complete is
the short answer and and that's a long time to go about a year
and a half without having the family together.
And granted were very thankful and that we get opportunities to
get together as a few 18-month period but it's hard.
And so what you do is you think about the future when the family
is going to be back together. And the second thing you think
about is how much better things are for you and your own
journey, and that's what I think keeps you going in a good way,
which is You just know that this is the right thing for you.
And this is right thing for our family.
And you've got to work your butt off to make sure that is the
case all the way back to work, obviously, but there's no
hiding. The fact that it's an incomplete
feeling both here. And anytime we're not together.
What was the most difficult part of the past two or three years?
Most difficult part, what you highlighted one of them.
And so I'll highlight a number of things that were quite
difficult. I don't know which one was the
most difficult. One was making the decision to
get a higher level of care, that would require you to be away
from us specifically when you went to Boston.
Yeah. I was easily one of the most
difficult things that we've done over the last two years.
I said, the second thing is just seeing you suffer as a parent.
That's much rather. See yourself suffer.
You'd much rather see anyone else in the world suffer other
than your child. And so that was, you know,
absolutely gut-wrenching is to see your child suffer and to not
know what to do about it and then to not know how long that
will go on. And so that's a very, very, very
Tough thing to go through as a, as a parent.
Those are probably the two hardest things, which to see
your child suffer and to, then make a voluntary choice to
actually have your child go away.
That is, regardless of the fact that we all felt strongly that
it was the best thing for you and your health and your
recovery. That's incredibly hard to do.
It's a lot easier. If somebody else makes that
decision, you don't have a choice.
Very, very different when it's a voluntary choice.
So our life looks a lot different now than it.
Did two years ago. We have like a really strong
relationship. Our family unit is a lot more
intact. I'm a lot more open with you
guys. And obviously, I'm happier and
healthy. What do you think it would look
like now if you hadn't chosen to send me to Boston?
Well, I don't know for sure, but I can tell you talking to other
families that have had similar situations where there Daughter
or son suffered from depression and anxiety, is that everyone
that we've spoken to says that if they had it to do over again,
they would have taken more aggressive action earlier in
your child's life. And so for that, I'm very
thankful and I give credit really to your mom for, for
moving fast and moving swiftly with regards to getting help for
you, and for us. And so, That, that literally,
you know, was everything. And I kind of I was very much
the follower on that. And normally I'm the leader in a
lot of situations that contacts button but not here, really?
It was, it was Jamie. It was your mom that took the
lead and I'm just so thankful. She did.
And so, I'd say that if we hadn't done those things, I
think it would be would be much worse off based on all the
things. I've heard from other families
in that to see you suffer for Year for a relatively selfish
Focus, which would have been us to have you at home for another
year. Not to minimize that like that
would have sent me away. It was very difficult.
A lot of people choose to not do that because it's so difficult.
No, that's not uncommon. No, no, for sure that the common
path is not to send your child away to get further help.
And so what I'm saying when I say the, you know, kind of
easier decision in some ways. Well, I'm easy.
Easier if we would have made the decision to keep you here for
another year. I think it would have been a
relatively selfish decision on the part of your mom and myself,
because we just want you home, and that's a very selfish thing.
When I say, I think that context, because that makes us
feel good. Now, that said it was incredibly
clear that you were suffering in such an intensive way, that it
was one of those things where you just have to immediately let
go of that that sort of Norman rockwell-like picture where the
family must be together or we're going to kind of pretend like
everything is perfect. You just set that aside and say
this just isn't the time for us to all be together.
Yeah. What is the time for is for
Sadie to get the help that she needs?
And and that was an incredibly difficult decision to make, but
in hindsight, I'm very, very glad that we made it and it came
at Great disruption, because you were in the middle of your
school year. You know, very, very difficult
in terms of this just started High School, just started high
school. So you're the middle of your
freshman year in high school. The last thing in the world, you
wanted to do was to leave school in the middle of your freshman
year and to go to another part of the country to the other side
of the country. These things are hard to do.
So. Now you wouldn't change.
Is there anything you wish you could do differently anything
alter? Sure.
I mean, I've lost count of the So much that we could have done
differently, you know, it sure feels like before for me at
least and I don't know if you agree with this, but for me a
real turning point was several weeks into three East in Boston.
That was the turning point for me.
I think. Agree, awesome.
It sounds like for you as well. I feel like there were countless
mistakes made on my behalf on my part in the one year prior to
that moment and And a lot of it was because I never experienced
something like this before with a child.
I didn't know if there were certain things you were doing
just to be abstinent versus it coming from another.
Yeah, which clearly it was. And and then there's just the
helplessness that you feel as a father or a mother in this
situation. And so I've lost count of the
things that I wish I had a second chance to do it over
again, but they were largely. Have during that time frame,
when you first had symptoms of depression and anxiety up until
called the three or four week point after you started three
East. Yeah, I agree.
I know for me. There are so long during that
year where I was like, they must see like they must know that I'm
suffering. They must know that I'm unhappy
and it's so wasn't obvious because there's so many things
that look like just like a typical teenager rebelling.
That's right, but kids are like in reality really upset and
don't understand. What their identities.
So I know one thing I got from. Boston was understanding that
people don't know what's going on inside my head, unless I say
it thing ever will. So I really wish I could have
done that in a different way. Well, you know, the good news is
you already said this earlier is that we now have an open line of
communication that we never enjoyed prior to freeze.
And I'm so thankful for that because as you said, for the
year and a half before, Three East in Boston.
There was little communication. And yeah, it would be easier if
I were in your shoes to say. Well, geez, Mom and Dad.
Absolutely. Must understand what's going on.
Yes, I'm behaving in this way, which is so unusual, but also
keep in mind that as a mother and a father, you're pretty much
taught. So to speak by society that they
just know that when your kids become teenagers, it's going to
be ridiculous and you're going to just it's good.
Yeah, crazy, and you're not going to understand them
anymore. And there's gonna be this.
And so you're kind of trained for 12 years.
They're going to test yourself. They're going to not want to be
associated with their focus on your friends yet.
So you're taught to anticipate this, you're trained to be ready
for this. So when it happens, you just
kind of assume. Okay.
Well, that's Teenage life. Yeah, not fun for anybody.
But I guess this is what everybody told us about and so
not surprisingly. I'm not forgiving us for this
but it's why your mom. Me basically try to do the best
we could but didn't quite understand that this there's a
lot more going on. We just had 20 appreciation for.
Yeah, so so that chalk that one up to everybody foreshadowing a
teenage years. We've every TV show has that
message every book, everything in society.
I forgive you guys, because one thing that I've learned,
especially recently, is that no one can be the perfect parent
for a kid, like, the parent. The perfect parent for me, is
different from IV and from Ruby and Atticus.
And I'm supposed to be in your oldest child to have no point of
reference. Nothing to go off of all trial
and errors. There's no way for you to do it
perfectly and especially because I expected you to understand
without saying anything, I never would expect for you guys, to
hold that against yourself. Thank you very much.
It's tough because as a father and a mother, you you go back
and relive. Jeez.
Why did I do? Why do you not see that coming?
Why did I respond differently? And it's tough.
I suppose, this is why we're all human.
Yeah, it's an example of us being human in that.
We don't behave in the perfect way.
Every time we don't or not omnipotent understanding what
people are going through and this is the this is the struggle
that is life. And there's this famous saying
that life is struggle and it's true.
I think it a lot of life is the struggle of Life.
It wouldn't be life. If it wasn't hard.
It wouldn't be like you're not living in down the highs and the
lows. Yeah.
Appreciate it. Yeah, I agree.
So the name of the podcast nevertheless she persisted.
Would you tell the story of how you first found that saying,
Okay. So this was this predates, your
experience in Montana. So we were given the
recommendation by your care providers increased and they
thought that rather than going back.
Going back into a Traditional School environment.
They strongly recommended that, you go to a therapeutic boarding
school before you transition back to a normal school.
And so, of course, your mom and I were thrown for a loop or
like, oh my gosh, you've gotta figure out if we agree with this
recommendation, and then, secondly, we need to find the
right therapeutic. Boarding school.
Yeah, and so, that was not an easy process.
So your mom and I did a lot of work to try and become
Proficient in what therapeutic boarding schools were and where
they were located in, which will meet that would be the best
match for you. And so, we did a bunch of work
and visit a lot of therapy boarding schools.
At the end of the day. We found a wonderful one in
Montana Whitefish Montana, and there's a little village,
they're called White Fish. And there's a little gift shop
that sells t-shirts and cards and little Trinkets.
And I remember that we had just come back from visiting the
school, and we were staying one night.
Right in Whitefish and your mom. And I went walking around before
dinner time just to sort of, check out the town and we were
in this kind of state of mind that was cautiously optimistic
because we had just had a wonderful visit to this
therapeutic boarding school also anxious and nervous and know my
gosh. I can't believe we're having to
make a decision. It's going to impact our
daughter's life for the next year or year and a half of her
life. And so there was a lot of weight
to the moment. And so we went into this,
delightful little guy. Shop.
And there was merriweather's giving gifts Montana and it was,
you know, a series of sayings that were put on coffee mugs and
t-shirts and whatnot. That just couldn't help but make
you smile and laugh and whatnot. And I remember I went to back to
the store and I saw this one. I think it was like a pencil
case holder or something like that is a little bag and on it.
It said, nevertheless, she persisted.
Added. And now that would saying was
first used in a political context.
If you look up online, where a male Senator, I think was was
basically saying that this woman, you know, kept talking
despite the fact that he asked her to stop talking and he said
that nevertheless she persisted. So so it became sort of used
for, you know, kind of female empowerment which I didn't know
the full story of it. When I read that phrase and I
think it's incredible and inspirational.
I hope everybody wears it on. T-shirt, but when I read it, I
couldn't help. But think of you and I couldn't
help. But think of all the things that
have been thrown at you as a young girl, you know, from the
time you were 13 years old, 12 years old and the fact that here
you were in Boston persisting in the face of a whole lot of
things that you never asked for. We're never your fault and yet
they happen and you had a decision to make which is you
could Basically fall over and just sort of you know, kind of
not want to get up or you can make the decision to persist and
I was always always just amazed flabbergasted inspired by the
fact that you have continued to make decisions to persist.
And so when I saw that little saying it just you know, it
caused me to cry, it caused me to just be so excited for you
that nevertheless, you persist. And so, I sent I think that that
you're in an email, if I recall, I might add something like so.
Yeah, and it was funny because ever since that moment, when you
and I communicate, especially in the Google Docs environment,
where this is our primary means of communication outside of our
limited phone calls. You, and I, both always end the
session with PS. Nevertheless.
She persisted and so that's the story.
Yeah, and I felt like that went had a lot of symbolic and
emotional meaning but also So, was very Universal to a lot of
people have struggled with various things.
So if you have me in Congress, maybe it also applies.
But amen. Absolutely, but I think to your
point, see, I do think it really is an incredible saying, not
just for young girls but for young boys, that may be
struggling as well, which is that decision to persist, which
is nevertheless, in spite of all these things, the weight of the
world and and, and the Tragedy that befalls us, that is
incredibly strong young, you know, boys and girls or young
women and young men that they make the decision to persist.
It is incredibly inspirational and I'm inspired by you every
day. And I'm inspired by your
classmates at school and your peers at three.
He's and I just, I'm so thankful that you make that decision
every day to persist. And I know it's not easy.
I should say, I can see that. It's not easy.
I can say that I know because, you know, I haven't gone through
what you've gone and what your peers have gone through, but it
is just inspiring to watch all of you, get up each day, and
make the decision to persist because that they're in is a
fulfilled life. And I'm glad we've taken that as
our slogan, and it always makes me smile tight that I rephrase.
And it always makes me smile to read that phrase to.
Yeah, with that we want to end. I've been attending the episodes
with how we end our It's well. So ready.
Beside getting P best. Nevertheless.
She persisted.