1 00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:02,300 Welcome back to. Nevertheless. 2 00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:04,600 She persisted a podcast with Sadie Sutton. 3 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:16,900 Today, I'm here. My bad. 4 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:22,300 Hello. See, hi Dad, and we're going to 5 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:28,300 talk about what his experience was as I was going through 6 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:32,800 depression and anxiety and what he has to offer to other parents 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,700 advice, all that kind of stuff. See ya. 8 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:39,600 This Aaron. Yeah, good time. 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,300 Is there anything you must start with? 10 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:44,800 I'm just looking forward to the conversation. 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,300 Okay. All righty, and we're also 12 00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:51,400 joined by Posey, the doggy. Okay. 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,100 So is there anything you want to share about yourself? 14 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:56,400 Before we start? Well, part of the most important 15 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:02,300 things, your dad, and that obviously it's been a really 16 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:05,800 important to plus years, two and a half years in terms of your 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,400 growth and our growth as a family. 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,300 And so I'm looking forward to this conversation. 19 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:16,700 Cool. so first question is pretty broad, but tell me about 20 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:22,300 your perception of me while I was living at home and what your 21 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:26,700 experience of my mental illness and its progression was like, 22 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:33,600 well, the I'll start where we started to notice that clearly 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:40,000 there were changes and this goes back, we meaning your mom and 24 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:46,900 myself ain't so and myself. So this would have been the 25 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:52,600 first probably too late January of your eighth grade year. 26 00:01:52,900 --> 00:01:55,900 And so that's where at least I started to notice it. 27 00:01:56,300 --> 00:01:58,500 Mommy. I bet started to notice it 28 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:01,700 earlier because she's more perceptive about these things, 29 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:05,700 but I noticed it when we head out of town guests for dinner, 30 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,300 who came over for dinner and they had kids that were very 31 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:13,500 similar to your age and your siblings a Is so what would 32 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:17,800 normally have been a situation where the adult sit down and 33 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,100 trade stories and the kids go off and have fun together was 34 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:24,000 not that because you never came out of your room. 35 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,700 And so do you remember this? That was a clue to me that. 36 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Wow, this is definitely unusual. And yeah because everybody else 37 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:35,900 had a great time and everybody else was enjoying the company, 38 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,000 but you weren't. And I do remember that I had to 39 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,500 go up and ask you to come down even for dinner, much less to 40 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:47,300 socialize with our guests. And that was definitely 41 00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:50,300 something. I noticed that was just, you 42 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:52,700 know, I didn't understand why it was happening. 43 00:02:52,900 --> 00:02:55,500 I just knew that it was something that was very unusual. 44 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:57,600 And I took, I interpreted as well. 45 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,400 This is not being very respectful or welcoming work. 46 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:05,200 Guess I had any understanding or appreciation for the fact that 47 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,600 you were suffering and that what was really going on was 48 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,400 depression. And so that was my first, That 49 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,500 something was up. I have no idea because I wasn't 50 00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:19,000 educated in this at all. But that was my first. 51 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,100 I'd say perception. That something wasn't quite 52 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:24,200 right in January of your eighth grade year. 53 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,700 Gotcha. So what was as it, I like my 54 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:31,500 depression got worse and I was more depressed and that started 55 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:32,700 to affect a small. What was that? 56 00:03:32,700 --> 00:03:37,100 Like It's like Dad knowing that your daughter was going through 57 00:03:37,100 --> 00:03:40,400 that. You know, I'd say that in the 58 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,600 beginning again. I didn't have the tools myself 59 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:49,800 to really be helpful to really, sort of be the best participant 60 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,900 in all this. I unfortunately was, you know, a 61 00:03:53,908 --> 00:03:57,200 much more focused on. Let me see if I can solve this 62 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,600 for you. Let me see if I can sort of drag 63 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,400 you out of this. And what I mean by that 64 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,000 specifically is and you remember this, I'm sure say he were, you 65 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,200 would have a tough time getting on. 66 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,600 School and rather than taking a deep breath and validating. 67 00:04:14,900 --> 00:04:17,000 What it was, you must have been feeling. 68 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:20,500 I Instead try to cajole you out of bed. 69 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:22,900 I would try and tell you. Hey, it's really important that 70 00:04:22,900 --> 00:04:25,500 you get to school because this is an important moment in your 71 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,500 life academically and he's all cut all things over 72 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:32,100 well-intentioned but unfortunately of zero help to 73 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:36,600 you. And so so I'd say that, you know 74 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,600 what, I should have been doing and I learn this until we got 75 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,400 help from people. That really knew what was going 76 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:47,100 on is to validate first and foremost and to be able to say I 77 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:48,900 can just see that you're suffering. 78 00:04:48,900 --> 00:04:52,200 I can I can sense that you're suffering given that you're not. 79 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,600 The kind of person that doesn't get out of bed for school in the 80 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,000 morning. And so, this is very unusual for 81 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,000 you. And first and foremost, you must 82 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,800 be suffering. And I want you to know that, I 83 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,900 know you're suffering. These are things that I just. 84 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,400 It wasn't part of my toolkit is last thing on my My major to 85 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,500 write my kind of courses of action, for lack of a better 86 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:17,900 word. So so anyway, so that sort of 87 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:22,400 began, I think a bit of a period where, you know, your mom and me 88 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,200 were ham-fisted in terms of how to handle this wanted to do kind 89 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:28,900 of everything possible to help you. 90 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:31,900 But unfortunately this is new for us and it was new territory 91 00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:35,000 and not surprisingly. We acted like rookies through 92 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,600 this and probably weren't very helpful to you. 93 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:43,300 And But eventually, you know, we got some some advice and help 94 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:45,000 and, and skills. Thanks. 95 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,600 A lot of good. People be shocked about a lot 96 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:54,300 about like running out of validate understand and Kind of 97 00:05:54,300 --> 00:05:57,600 meeting me where I was at a lot that you like learned. 98 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,900 Is that the question is, what have you learned in the past 99 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:02,400 year? Would you say that's the main 100 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,000 thing? That's the first thing? 101 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:06,800 Yes. Is the, this is the brief 102 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,700 answer. I think thing that I learned the 103 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:11,900 most throughout this. These last two and a half years 104 00:06:11,900 --> 00:06:15,000 has been the importance of validation, you know, there's a 105 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,700 whole book of other insights and things that we've been very 106 00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:22,500 thankful to learn. And I would say that the most 107 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:25,800 important thing that Continue to take away is the importance of 108 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,300 validation, and I'd say that that was something. 109 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:34,700 I just didn't, I didn't really kind of even understand or 110 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:36,400 appreciate probably for the first year. 111 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:42,500 Yeah, but but I do remember in my visits to Boston and sitting 112 00:06:42,500 --> 00:06:46,700 in those sessions with blaze and his organization in terms of 113 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:49,400 apparent, Monday, meetings that went on. 114 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:52,000 That's where I learned the importance of validation. 115 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:57,700 Hmm. So I went to Boston and left 116 00:06:57,700 --> 00:07:01,400 being home. What was that like to send me 117 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,200 away? So it's a parent, it's tough 118 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:10,000 because, you know, you grow up as, you know, I grew up as for 119 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,100 the big family and everybody was always at home in terms of the 120 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:15,400 kids. And then the only time, the kids 121 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,600 leave the house is kind of consistent basis is when you go 122 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,800 off to college. And so for me, I never 123 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Dissipated that idea situation where I would be having an 124 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,600 offspring, a kid go off or anything other than college. 125 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,200 So. So just when that topic was 126 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,100 raised to us that that people thought that might be the best 127 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:42,300 thing for you and your mental health and being able to develop 128 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:47,200 the skills, to be able to navigate depression and anxiety, 129 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,200 you know, it wasn't anything that I expected anticipated or 130 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:57,200 Canon they wanted and but It said after a pretty long period 131 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,800 where you were suffering and clearly things were not 132 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,900 progressing forward. It was more like one step 133 00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:06,600 forward, two steps back. Two steps forward, one step 134 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,900 back. It was treading water is 135 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:10,800 probably the best way to describe it over the course of a 136 00:08:10,808 --> 00:08:15,700 year that when it was a very clear recommendation from really 137 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:21,200 skilled service providers and professionals here in our home 138 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,800 area said, we really think the right thing for sale. 139 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,100 Would be to go to one of these programs where they're really 140 00:08:27,100 --> 00:08:30,800 good at this. And, and so, it was one of those 141 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,700 things where it wasn't anything that we thought would be in our 142 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:37,000 future. But eventually when it was 143 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,799 actually teed up to us on the heels of a year year and a half 144 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:45,000 of seeing you struggle, that that's when we took a deep 145 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,500 breath and said, well, these people really know what they're 146 00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:50,500 doing and they're clearly focused on what's best for 147 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:53,800 safety and what's best for our family and we took some time. 148 00:08:53,900 --> 00:08:55,400 I'm to think about it eventually. 149 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,800 We took their recommendation. I'm really glad you did. 150 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,600 But yeah, I'm sure we'll get to. But, but that was scary for us 151 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,600 because that was not something. I think any parent really thinks 152 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,100 about never doing when they have an eighth-grader. 153 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:13,100 It's just not something that ever comes up. 154 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:19,200 Yeah, so I had been gone for the past year and a half, two years. 155 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,000 Was that like not having me at home? 156 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,800 It's incomplete is probably the best way to describe it. 157 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:31,100 It's like missing a key piece of the puzzle, a very big piece of 158 00:09:31,100 --> 00:09:34,600 the puzzle. So so it's one of those things 159 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,300 where you just always know. There's one in, d.c. 160 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:40,700 At the dinner table. There's one empty seat in the 161 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:44,600 car. There's your never complete is 162 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,300 the short answer and and that's a long time to go about a year 163 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:51,400 and a half without having the family together. 164 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:55,400 And granted were very thankful and that we get opportunities to 165 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,700 get together as a few 18-month period but it's hard. 166 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:04,600 And so what you do is you think about the future when the family 167 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,100 is going to be back together. And the second thing you think 168 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:14,600 about is how much better things are for you and your own 169 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:21,000 journey, and that's what I think keeps you going in a good way, 170 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,900 which is You just know that this is the right thing for you. 171 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:25,400 And this is right thing for our family. 172 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,800 And you've got to work your butt off to make sure that is the 173 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,800 case all the way back to work, obviously, but there's no 174 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:35,100 hiding. The fact that it's an incomplete 175 00:10:35,100 --> 00:10:39,800 feeling both here. And anytime we're not together. 176 00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:44,800 What was the most difficult part of the past two or three years? 177 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,600 Most difficult part, what you highlighted one of them. 178 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,300 And so I'll highlight a number of things that were quite 179 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:54,600 difficult. I don't know which one was the 180 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,800 most difficult. One was making the decision to 181 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,200 get a higher level of care, that would require you to be away 182 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,900 from us specifically when you went to Boston. 183 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,200 Yeah. I was easily one of the most 184 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,300 difficult things that we've done over the last two years. 185 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,700 I said, the second thing is just seeing you suffer as a parent. 186 00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:22,400 That's much rather. See yourself suffer. 187 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,200 You'd much rather see anyone else in the world suffer other 188 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,500 than your child. And so that was, you know, 189 00:11:28,508 --> 00:11:34,900 absolutely gut-wrenching is to see your child suffer and to not 190 00:11:34,900 --> 00:11:40,400 know what to do about it and then to not know how long that 191 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,800 will go on. And so that's a very, very, very 192 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,700 Tough thing to go through as a, as a parent. 193 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,400 Those are probably the two hardest things, which to see 194 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,300 your child suffer and to, then make a voluntary choice to 195 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:58,300 actually have your child go away. 196 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:03,800 That is, regardless of the fact that we all felt strongly that 197 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,400 it was the best thing for you and your health and your 198 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,500 recovery. That's incredibly hard to do. 199 00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:11,500 It's a lot easier. If somebody else makes that 200 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:13,300 decision, you don't have a choice. 201 00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:16,300 Very, very different when it's a voluntary choice. 202 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,800 So our life looks a lot different now than it. 203 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,900 Did two years ago. We have like a really strong 204 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:26,000 relationship. Our family unit is a lot more 205 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,500 intact. I'm a lot more open with you 206 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:30,200 guys. And obviously, I'm happier and 207 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,200 healthy. What do you think it would look 208 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,300 like now if you hadn't chosen to send me to Boston? 209 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,000 Well, I don't know for sure, but I can tell you talking to other 210 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,400 families that have had similar situations where there Daughter 211 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,800 or son suffered from depression and anxiety, is that everyone 212 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:52,800 that we've spoken to says that if they had it to do over again, 213 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,900 they would have taken more aggressive action earlier in 214 00:12:56,900 --> 00:13:00,400 your child's life. And so for that, I'm very 215 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:06,300 thankful and I give credit really to your mom for, for 216 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:11,200 moving fast and moving swiftly with regards to getting help for 217 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,200 you, and for us. And so, That, that literally, 218 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,000 you know, was everything. And I kind of I was very much 219 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,200 the follower on that. And normally I'm the leader in a 220 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,000 lot of situations that contacts button but not here, really? 221 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,500 It was, it was Jamie. It was your mom that took the 222 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:31,400 lead and I'm just so thankful. She did. 223 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,400 And so, I'd say that if we hadn't done those things, I 224 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,400 think it would be would be much worse off based on all the 225 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,000 things. I've heard from other families 226 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:46,700 in that to see you suffer for Year for a relatively selfish 227 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,500 Focus, which would have been us to have you at home for another 228 00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:53,600 year. Not to minimize that like that 229 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,100 would have sent me away. It was very difficult. 230 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,200 A lot of people choose to not do that because it's so difficult. 231 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,200 No, that's not uncommon. No, no, for sure that the common 232 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,600 path is not to send your child away to get further help. 233 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:11,200 And so what I'm saying when I say the, you know, kind of 234 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,800 easier decision in some ways. Well, I'm easy. 235 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:17,500 Easier if we would have made the decision to keep you here for 236 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:19,300 another year. I think it would have been a 237 00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:22,700 relatively selfish decision on the part of your mom and myself, 238 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,900 because we just want you home, and that's a very selfish thing. 239 00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:30,000 When I say, I think that context, because that makes us 240 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,000 feel good. Now, that said it was incredibly 241 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,400 clear that you were suffering in such an intensive way, that it 242 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,800 was one of those things where you just have to immediately let 243 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,400 go of that that sort of Norman rockwell-like picture where the 244 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400 family must be together or we're going to kind of pretend like 245 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,000 everything is perfect. You just set that aside and say 246 00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:56,400 this just isn't the time for us to all be together. 247 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,900 Yeah. What is the time for is for 248 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,200 Sadie to get the help that she needs? 249 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,800 And and that was an incredibly difficult decision to make, but 250 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,100 in hindsight, I'm very, very glad that we made it and it came 251 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,900 at Great disruption, because you were in the middle of your 252 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:15,500 school year. You know, very, very difficult 253 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:18,700 in terms of this just started High School, just started high 254 00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:20,300 school. So you're the middle of your 255 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:22,800 freshman year in high school. The last thing in the world, you 256 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,900 wanted to do was to leave school in the middle of your freshman 257 00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:30,500 year and to go to another part of the country to the other side 258 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:34,800 of the country. These things are hard to do. 259 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,000 So. Now you wouldn't change. 260 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,700 Is there anything you wish you could do differently anything 261 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:42,400 alter? Sure. 262 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,600 I mean, I've lost count of the So much that we could have done 263 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,700 differently, you know, it sure feels like before for me at 264 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:53,500 least and I don't know if you agree with this, but for me a 265 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:58,000 real turning point was several weeks into three East in Boston. 266 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,900 That was the turning point for me. 267 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:01,700 I think. Agree, awesome. 268 00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:05,900 It sounds like for you as well. I feel like there were countless 269 00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:11,700 mistakes made on my behalf on my part in the one year prior to 270 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:16,600 that moment and And a lot of it was because I never experienced 271 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,500 something like this before with a child. 272 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,300 I didn't know if there were certain things you were doing 273 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:26,400 just to be abstinent versus it coming from another. 274 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:31,400 Yeah, which clearly it was. And and then there's just the 275 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,500 helplessness that you feel as a father or a mother in this 276 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:38,400 situation. And so I've lost count of the 277 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,700 things that I wish I had a second chance to do it over 278 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:45,400 again, but they were largely. Have during that time frame, 279 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,300 when you first had symptoms of depression and anxiety up until 280 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,900 called the three or four week point after you started three 281 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:55,600 East. Yeah, I agree. 282 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,200 I know for me. There are so long during that 283 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,800 year where I was like, they must see like they must know that I'm 284 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,900 suffering. They must know that I'm unhappy 285 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,900 and it's so wasn't obvious because there's so many things 286 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:08,700 that look like just like a typical teenager rebelling. 287 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,099 That's right, but kids are like in reality really upset and 288 00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:15,099 don't understand. What their identities. 289 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,000 So I know one thing I got from. Boston was understanding that 290 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,800 people don't know what's going on inside my head, unless I say 291 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,700 it thing ever will. So I really wish I could have 292 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:29,300 done that in a different way. Well, you know, the good news is 293 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:33,100 you already said this earlier is that we now have an open line of 294 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:37,700 communication that we never enjoyed prior to freeze. 295 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:41,900 And I'm so thankful for that because as you said, for the 296 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:45,600 year and a half before, Three East in Boston. 297 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,700 There was little communication. And yeah, it would be easier if 298 00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:52,200 I were in your shoes to say. Well, geez, Mom and Dad. 299 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,200 Absolutely. Must understand what's going on. 300 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600 Yes, I'm behaving in this way, which is so unusual, but also 301 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,900 keep in mind that as a mother and a father, you're pretty much 302 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:05,000 taught. So to speak by society that they 303 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,200 just know that when your kids become teenagers, it's going to 304 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,100 be ridiculous and you're going to just it's good. 305 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,400 Yeah, crazy, and you're not going to understand them 306 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:14,600 anymore. And there's gonna be this. 307 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,100 And so you're kind of trained for 12 years. 308 00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:20,800 They're going to test yourself. They're going to not want to be 309 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,500 associated with their focus on your friends yet. 310 00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:28,200 So you're taught to anticipate this, you're trained to be ready 311 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,300 for this. So when it happens, you just 312 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:31,300 kind of assume. Okay. 313 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:34,500 Well, that's Teenage life. Yeah, not fun for anybody. 314 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,200 But I guess this is what everybody told us about and so 315 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,600 not surprisingly. I'm not forgiving us for this 316 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,300 but it's why your mom. Me basically try to do the best 317 00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:50,300 we could but didn't quite understand that this there's a 318 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,700 lot more going on. We just had 20 appreciation for. 319 00:18:53,800 --> 00:19:00,400 Yeah, so so that chalk that one up to everybody foreshadowing a 320 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,600 teenage years. We've every TV show has that 321 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,100 message every book, everything in society. 322 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,200 I forgive you guys, because one thing that I've learned, 323 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,900 especially recently, is that no one can be the perfect parent 324 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:15,100 for a kid, like, the parent. The perfect parent for me, is 325 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:17,300 different from IV and from Ruby and Atticus. 326 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,800 And I'm supposed to be in your oldest child to have no point of 327 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,500 reference. Nothing to go off of all trial 328 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:25,300 and errors. There's no way for you to do it 329 00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:29,300 perfectly and especially because I expected you to understand 330 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:33,100 without saying anything, I never would expect for you guys, to 331 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:35,500 hold that against yourself. Thank you very much. 332 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,700 It's tough because as a father and a mother, you you go back 333 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:43,200 and relive. Jeez. 334 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,700 Why did I do? Why do you not see that coming? 335 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:48,700 Why did I respond differently? And it's tough. 336 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,100 I suppose, this is why we're all human. 337 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,800 Yeah, it's an example of us being human in that. 338 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,500 We don't behave in the perfect way. 339 00:19:56,500 --> 00:20:01,400 Every time we don't or not omnipotent understanding what 340 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,900 people are going through and this is the this is the struggle 341 00:20:05,900 --> 00:20:07,700 that is life. And there's this famous saying 342 00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:11,200 that life is struggle and it's true. 343 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,200 I think it a lot of life is the struggle of Life. 344 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,000 It wouldn't be life. If it wasn't hard. 345 00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:19,800 It wouldn't be like you're not living in down the highs and the 346 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:20,700 lows. Yeah. 347 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,100 Appreciate it. Yeah, I agree. 348 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:26,400 So the name of the podcast nevertheless she persisted. 349 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:30,600 Would you tell the story of how you first found that saying, 350 00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:35,300 Okay. So this was this predates, your 351 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,800 experience in Montana. So we were given the 352 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,900 recommendation by your care providers increased and they 353 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:43,700 thought that rather than going back. 354 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,500 Going back into a Traditional School environment. 355 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,500 They strongly recommended that, you go to a therapeutic boarding 356 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,700 school before you transition back to a normal school. 357 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:58,300 And so, of course, your mom and I were thrown for a loop or 358 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:01,600 like, oh my gosh, you've gotta figure out if we agree with this 359 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,400 recommendation, and then, secondly, we need to find the 360 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,200 right therapeutic. Boarding school. 361 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,100 Yeah, and so, that was not an easy process. 362 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:13,400 So your mom and I did a lot of work to try and become 363 00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:17,600 Proficient in what therapeutic boarding schools were and where 364 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,600 they were located in, which will meet that would be the best 365 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,700 match for you. And so, we did a bunch of work 366 00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:24,700 and visit a lot of therapy boarding schools. 367 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,700 At the end of the day. We found a wonderful one in 368 00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:31,800 Montana Whitefish Montana, and there's a little village, 369 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,800 they're called White Fish. And there's a little gift shop 370 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,500 that sells t-shirts and cards and little Trinkets. 371 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,000 And I remember that we had just come back from visiting the 372 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,700 school, and we were staying one night. 373 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,500 Right in Whitefish and your mom. And I went walking around before 374 00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:52,500 dinner time just to sort of, check out the town and we were 375 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:57,500 in this kind of state of mind that was cautiously optimistic 376 00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:59,600 because we had just had a wonderful visit to this 377 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,400 therapeutic boarding school also anxious and nervous and know my 378 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:04,700 gosh. I can't believe we're having to 379 00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:06,900 make a decision. It's going to impact our 380 00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:09,300 daughter's life for the next year or year and a half of her 381 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:11,100 life. And so there was a lot of weight 382 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:12,700 to the moment. And so we went into this, 383 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:14,400 delightful little guy. Shop. 384 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:22,300 And there was merriweather's giving gifts Montana and it was, 385 00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:25,900 you know, a series of sayings that were put on coffee mugs and 386 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,100 t-shirts and whatnot. That just couldn't help but make 387 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:32,000 you smile and laugh and whatnot. And I remember I went to back to 388 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:38,300 the store and I saw this one. I think it was like a pencil 389 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,700 case holder or something like that is a little bag and on it. 390 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:43,700 It said, nevertheless, she persisted. 391 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,300 Added. And now that would saying was 392 00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:48,400 first used in a political context. 393 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:53,200 If you look up online, where a male Senator, I think was was 394 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,400 basically saying that this woman, you know, kept talking 395 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,700 despite the fact that he asked her to stop talking and he said 396 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:02,700 that nevertheless she persisted. So so it became sort of used 397 00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:07,000 for, you know, kind of female empowerment which I didn't know 398 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,100 the full story of it. When I read that phrase and I 399 00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:11,900 think it's incredible and inspirational. 400 00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:16,600 I hope everybody wears it on. T-shirt, but when I read it, I 401 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,900 couldn't help. But think of you and I couldn't 402 00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:21,000 help. But think of all the things that 403 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,700 have been thrown at you as a young girl, you know, from the 404 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:28,600 time you were 13 years old, 12 years old and the fact that here 405 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,200 you were in Boston persisting in the face of a whole lot of 406 00:23:33,208 --> 00:23:38,200 things that you never asked for. We're never your fault and yet 407 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,200 they happen and you had a decision to make which is you 408 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:47,700 could Basically fall over and just sort of you know, kind of 409 00:23:47,708 --> 00:23:52,500 not want to get up or you can make the decision to persist and 410 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:58,000 I was always always just amazed flabbergasted inspired by the 411 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,200 fact that you have continued to make decisions to persist. 412 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,800 And so when I saw that little saying it just you know, it 413 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,200 caused me to cry, it caused me to just be so excited for you 414 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,900 that nevertheless, you persist. And so, I sent I think that that 415 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:18,600 you're in an email, if I recall, I might add something like so. 416 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,800 Yeah, and it was funny because ever since that moment, when you 417 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,000 and I communicate, especially in the Google Docs environment, 418 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,500 where this is our primary means of communication outside of our 419 00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:32,900 limited phone calls. You, and I, both always end the 420 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:35,200 session with PS. Nevertheless. 421 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,000 She persisted and so that's the story. 422 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,400 Yeah, and I felt like that went had a lot of symbolic and 423 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,900 emotional meaning but also So, was very Universal to a lot of 424 00:24:45,908 --> 00:24:47,900 people have struggled with various things. 425 00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:50,500 So if you have me in Congress, maybe it also applies. 426 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:55,900 But amen. Absolutely, but I think to your 427 00:24:55,900 --> 00:25:01,000 point, see, I do think it really is an incredible saying, not 428 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,600 just for young girls but for young boys, that may be 429 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,800 struggling as well, which is that decision to persist, which 430 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,500 is nevertheless, in spite of all these things, the weight of the 431 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:16,600 world and and, and the Tragedy that befalls us, that is 432 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,100 incredibly strong young, you know, boys and girls or young 433 00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:25,600 women and young men that they make the decision to persist. 434 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:30,400 It is incredibly inspirational and I'm inspired by you every 435 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,200 day. And I'm inspired by your 436 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,200 classmates at school and your peers at three. 437 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,800 He's and I just, I'm so thankful that you make that decision 438 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,100 every day to persist. And I know it's not easy. 439 00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:44,600 I should say, I can see that. It's not easy. 440 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,500 I can say that I know because, you know, I haven't gone through 441 00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:50,500 what you've gone and what your peers have gone through, but it 442 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:54,500 is just inspiring to watch all of you, get up each day, and 443 00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:58,600 make the decision to persist because that they're in is a 444 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,000 fulfilled life. And I'm glad we've taken that as 445 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,600 our slogan, and it always makes me smile tight that I rephrase. 446 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,000 And it always makes me smile to read that phrase to. 447 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,500 Yeah, with that we want to end. I've been attending the episodes 448 00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:15,200 with how we end our It's well. So ready. 449 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,100 Beside getting P best. Nevertheless. 450 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:20,500 She persisted.