Welcome to, she persisted, I'm your host CD son.
Every Friday. I post interviews about mental
health, dialectical behavioral therapy and Teenage life.
These episodes break down my mental health Journey.
Teach skills to help you cope with life and showcase
testimonials from individuals, including teens, just like you.
Whether you've struggled yourself or just want to improve
your mental Fitness. This podcast is your inspiration
to live a life, you love and keep persisting.
This week's ubt scale is validation in this interview
Whitney and I talked a lot about how invalidating with positivity
can be and how it can really negatively.
Impact both your mental health and relationships.
I wanted to get super detailed on how you can be more
validating. So in case validation is a new
term Tio validation is something that you can do both towards
yourself or towards other people, where you create space
and appreciation for an emotion without necessarily agreeing
with an action. A belief, a decision or the
intensity of the emotion so there are six stops and they
weren't in difficulty. So they are pay attention
reflect back. Read my I ain't understand
acknowledge the valid and show equality will start with the
easiest and go to the hardest. So first is paying attention.
You are looking interested in the other person and side of
board. So you're not multitasking.
And if you're doing this for yourself, you're kind of sitting
and giving yourself a moment to process what you're going
through. Instead of just completely
distracting and trying to move on second is reflect back, stay
back. What you heard?
The other person say or do to be sure, you understood exactly
what the person is saying, we're not using judgmental language or
a Of tone of voice. Third is read minds and that's
in quotations. We're being sensitive to what's
not being said by the other person so that's facial
expressions. Body language what's happening
around you what you know about the person already and you are
showing your understanding in both words and actions.
You are checking to see if you are right in your assumptions
but you're letting it go if you're not, fourth is
understand, look for how with the other person is feeling
thinking or doing make sense based on their past experiences
present situation and Or their current state of mind or
physical condition. This is really breaking down the
cause of the action or motion that has arisen.
Fifth is acknowledged the valid, look for all the other person's
feelings thinking or actions are valid responses because they fit
the current facts or are understandable because they are
a logical response to the current facts.
Again, even if you don't agree with it, where you're looking to
understand their perspective and create space for that and lastly
is showing a quality. So be yourself.
You're not trying to one up or one down.
On the other person and you're treating the other person as an
equal and not as someone that's fragile or incompetent because
of what they're feeling. So that is validation, boiled
down. You are creating space for
yourself or someone else's emotional experience.
You are creating an appreciation for that without necessarily
agreeing and it's an amazing tool that allows you to feel
seen heard understood and process your emotions rather
than having them bubble up and get more overwhelming.
So with that, let's get into the episode.
Hello, hello, and welcome to. She persisted.
I'm so excited. You're here today.
If you are new. Welcome.
My name is Sadie. I am a freshman at the
University of Pennsylvania. Studying psychology, I started
she persisted after I went through a year and a half of
intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety and just
gain so much wisdom and insight and learn so many skills that I
wanted to share with other teens.
Because I really did feel like so much of what I went through
was preventable, if only the mental health education and
resources had been there, So that's why I started the
podcast. If you are a returning listener,
welcome back. We have an amazing interview
today with Whitney Goodman. She is the author of toxic
positivity and I left this interview just amazed by all the
insights you shared. And there are so many tips here
that you can Implement in your relationships and your internal
dialogue all of those things. So I know you guys are going to
love it before we dive in, happy may it is mental health
awareness month, I love may. It's a great month to be hosting
a mental health podcast, and it's really fun to see.
Ton of different brands and creators and individuals being
vulnerable, their stories and sharing more resources.
So, yeah, it's just a month that makes my heart very happy and to
celebrate, we have two things going on.
One, I am posting a ton of tick-tocks and reels every day
to celebrate mental health awareness month.
So tons of tips clips from the podcast mental health advice,
you name it, those will be going up and so make sure to follow
along at a cheap resisted podcast on Instagram.
And the second thing I'm doing is a huge giveaway.
This month to celebrate 100 reviews and mental health,
awareness month, we are at 95 right now.
So five of you go leave a review so we can hit that and I can
announce the giveaway, but it's just such an amazing collection
of brands that I've partnered with think, 5-minute journals
some amazing skincare companies, sweatshirts all brands that are
really aligned with the podcast and promote mental health,
awareness and resources. So I'm so excited for that.
I will be announcing that on the podcast, as well as Instagram
and Tick-Tock and we'll announce a giveaway winner by And the
month but to give you a little bit more context before we dive
into this interview Whitney good.
Men L MF T is the radically honest psychotherapist behind
the hugely popular Instagram account at sit with which she's
also the author of toxic positivity.
In the owner of the collaborative, Counseling
Center, a private therapy practice in Miami Florida.
She helped people who want to improve their relationships and
emotional awareness and gives tons of great tips on this in
this interview. So with that as always, make
sure to leave a review, an apple podcast share with a friend or
family member if you enjoy this. This interview and let's dive
in. Thank you so much for joining me
today on. She persisted, I'm so excited to
have you on the show. Of course, thank you so much for
having me. Yeah, so I want to start by
hearing about how you became a therapist, how you became aware
of toxic positivity. And then I'm sure that I'll say,
we're right into what exactly that is.
Because it's not a term that people I think totally
understand you here thrown around.
But I'd love to hear your explanation because I think you
explained it so well. Yeah.
So I've been a therapist for a little over seven years now I
wish I had a better story of how I became one but the truth is is
I was graduating from college with like degrees in sociology
and gender studies which you really can do nothing with.
So I started to look for masters programs and I knew I always
wanted to work with people in some capacity and I found this
therapy programs. Like oh that sounds exactly like
what I want to do. And I went straight from college
and so it's really the only job like profession I've ever had.
And I'm lucky that. I love it.
Yeah, just worked out well, yeah.
So how did you start noticing in practice or talking to other
clinicians? That toxic positivity, was
something that was going on in on a really big scale now.
So I started my career working a lot with patients who had cancer
and I noticed that positivity was like oh, Always the
prescription of choice. There was something I was doing.
There was this definite pressure that like, if you were going to
get through this, you needed to be positive and always felt kind
of weird to me. And so, over time, I started
noticing a lot of my clients saying things.
Like, I know I should be positive, but I know I shouldn't
complain. But I know I need to be
grateful, and I was also just seeing this all over Instagram.
Especially once I started my Instagram to Market my practice,
So I was like, okay, there's something going on here.
So, I created this chart that was really just, like, toxic
positively and one column and validation in the other.
And a lot of people were either saying like, oh my gosh, I've
been looking for something to call this my whole life, or I've
noticed this, but I've never thought about it.
And then, there were other people that were like, this is
crazy, positivity is nothing but good.
And so from there, I really realized like, oh, gosh, this is
something that we need to be talking about it.
People have such a polarizing reaction to the concept.
Yeah, no. It's really interesting that
second column are that second group of people that's like
positivity is only anything but good because they themselves are
also in that toxic positivity kind of Pennsylvania.
And you like, okay, thank you for explaining my point.
Yes, it's a great example here. So really breaking it down.
What is toxic positivity? So toxic positivity is really
this unrelenting pressure to be Be positive be seeking out
happiness, no matter what the situation and it's really
something that we use against ourselves like in some of those
examples that I just brought up, like I should be grateful and
it's also something that we use against each other.
When we use toxic positivity and telling people that they
shouldn't feel a certain way or that they need to look on the
bright side. Yeah, no, I think that's very
true and it's something that is becoming very widespread.
I know you talked a lot about how this became just Even more
overwhelming in the pandemic because that was the narrative
was stay positive. Let's get through it.
And there are, there are pros and cons to that, but I don't
know what your perspective is being practiced, but I feel like
I've never seen such an overwhelming urge of everyone to
be like, let's stay positive like before.
It felt like, there was much more of a mix of, like, some
people were like, well, this sucks but I guess like maybe
we'll get through another people were like, no, we're going to
stay positive. This is great.
So it's interesting to see for sure.
Yeah I definitely saw that and there was also this like you
have to make causative use of your time.
You need to achieve something you need to like self-care your
way through this or like you had the celebrities singing in their
houses, you know, telling yourselves as file and get
along. And it's like, there is a really
crazy thing happening in the world right now and we're just
not going to talk about. Yeah.
What are some like red flags or
phrases that People can catch on to that, they can be aware that
either using toxic positivity internally or they're noticing
it within their interactions. So these phrases really depend
on like, What's the timing? What's the audience?
And what's the topic that's being discussed?
And some of those ones that tend to kind of go into that toxic
positivity category, or definitely like everything
happens for a reason Time Heals all wounds just be grateful, you
know, it's this or at At least it's not X and we use these
statements when someone's truck struggling is when they kind of
can turn into toxic positivity. Yeah.
And I know those things are
very, very common, like when you go to someone and there's not
really like, if you don't know they're going to respond.
Well, a lot of the times, those are the responses that you get
and it can be really invalidating and it can be
really difficult to to feel like you're getting your needs met
and then move through that in an effective way.
So if you are engaging some with Or you yourself are utilizing,
toxic positivity, what are the consequences there, obviously,
if it wasn't in - we wouldn't be discussing it as much.
So what happens when you are chronically surrounded by toxic
positivity. So when you're using toxic
positivity against yourself, a couple of things happen, where
you're likely going to feel this Mist, you're going to kind of
try to shove down your emotions, you're going to suppress them,
and we know the research, really clearly shows us that the more
you suppress emotions. Owns, the more intense, they
become the more difficult they become it.
Also inhibits connection because you're not going to go and talk
to people. If you feel like you shouldn't
feel what you're feeling. And that's a consequence that we
see a lot when people are surrounded by toxic positivity
coming from other people, is this feeling of I'm alone?
I'm the only one that's dealing with this.
And nobody can help me, or will understand me.
And I think, again, we're seeing people really Silo themselves.
They become Really isolated and we don't know how to connect
with each other support each other around our pain.
When that is kind of like the narrative that's going on.
Yeah, what are the most common things that people use that
narrative to to navigate? I'm sure it's different for
everyone and there are different pain points that everyone
navigates, but other common things while you're like, no,
like this is not effective, like, let's feel what's going on
here, then you don't have to be positive.
Yeah, II line a lot of these in my book that I think it's,
there's these like big ticket items were positivity, just
really doesn't fit so grief and loss, infertility pregnancy,
being a parent. Any of these really hard things
in life, you know, anything related to trauma, mental health
struggles. It often doesn't feel
appropriate to try to use positivity to kind of Band-Aid,
any of those blue jeans. Yeah, I think Another really
interesting thing to adhere. I think when people first hear
about this idea of toxic positivity and really creating
space for those emotions, they kind of get stuck on just that
first step and you kind of forget that like okay but once
the emotional need is met, there's so much growth that can
happen and you can work through it and navigate it and advocate
for yourself. So can you speak to that a
little bit of? There's this first step of
identifying like okay this might not be the most effective thing
to tell myself that it's going to be fine and it could be worse
but what happens when you do acknowledge those emotions and
create space as so after you acknowledge those emotions,
you're really like giving a label and a name to what you're
experiencing which helps it become known to you and less
scary. So I know that I'm feeling anger
about something that it makes sense to me and I can kind of
think about what do I want to do with this.
What tools do I have access to and then you're going to start
thinking, maybe about like what action do I want to take?
What do I want to explore? Who I want to talk to you about
this and you're able to really like, get your needs met and
also build up this list of like coping skills for yourself and
make it easier. The next time you start to feel
any of these emotions. Hmm, when I was researching for
this, I heard you mentioned over validation, which is something I
don't think I've ever heard of before, and I love to hear your
perspective there and kind of unpack what?
That is. Yeah.
So I think validation has Become like a really widely used thing.
It's very necessary, but I do think over validating something
or continuing to tell yourself, like it's fine.
I don't need to worry about that or like it's going to be okay.
Can sometimes keep us stuck where we need to start thinking
about? Like, all right, what do I need
to do about this? What action do I need to take?
Is there an area in my life, where maybe I'm not doing enough
or where I need to work on something.
Sometimes, when people say, like, Anxious and it's okay that
I'm anxious. It's okay that I'm not.
Okay. I think you can stop people from
may be pursuing therapy or from thinking that things could get
better. So, validation is always like
the first step. It's something I tell people to
do, but from there you want to make sure that you're not
telling yourself, like I'm just miserable and I it's okay to be
miserable and it's fine. This way that there is more out
there than that for you. Yeah, no, it's interesting and
it makes Me, think about the CBT cycle.
And it's like, this is so effective from the thoughts
beliefs perspective to really effectively get your needs met
and then it's moving to the next part of the behavior and being
real with yourself and being like, okay, what is effective
here? And maybe in some cases, it's
not like sitting in this emotion creating space taking a pause.
And then in some cases, it's continuing to move forward,
advocate for your needs, ask for help, solve problem, solve if
that's necessary. So, I think that's really
interesting to think about and important to remember, as well.
If you had to save there is like a lesser of two evils, toxic
positivity versus pessimism. They're obviously very
different, but they're kind of two folds of this idea.
What are your thoughts there? So, I think both of them are not
great in large doses, right? And we tend to as a society like
to think in very black, or white term.
So a lot of people say to me, oh, you don't want me to be
positive, then you just going to be negative all the time or to
be a pessimist. And I think there's this Middle
Road where we can acknowledge, you know, what's bad?
What's good? What's neutral?
And we don't have to drift into either territory of like
pessimism or toxic positivity. I do find throughout my work
just like anecdotally that the people who are really
pessimistic are often. The people who were never
validated or they were constantly dismissed.
They were constantly told that what they're feeling was it
real? And so now they've had to like,
find this way to sort of like over identify with it and talk
about those things all the time because no one has ever said to
them. Like that makes sense why you're
upset? Yeah about that.
That's so interesting, this week's episode is sponsored by
teen counseling. You guys know, I cannot have a
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And to start meeting with a therapist, you were going to go
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What you're going to do is you're going to file a quick
survey about what you're hoping to work on, what your priorities
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Put any parent or Guardians email to give consent for
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So what you're going to do is head to teen counseling.com, she
persisted again, that is teen counseling.com she persisted Did
you find a therapist today? Similar to that parents?
That are practicing toxic positivity.
I think, especially for teens, this is a big one because you're
starting to get into the season of life where you aren't 100%
agreeing or looking up to are getting all your problems solved
by your parents, you're becoming more independent.
And you notice these aspects of your relationship and if toxic
positivity is something that you start to notice, it's like,
okay? So like how do we move forward?
So first part of that question would be like, what happens when
you are in an environment? Iron Man where you have a parent
or a guardian or a loved one? Who is chronically?
Being toxic li+. Yeah, I see this a lot because I
think parents forget that, like certain problems for teens feel
like a really big deal, and they are very big.
Yeah. For them, even if the parent
doesn't see it that way, you know, you're not in that stage
of life and so it's okay. As, as the teenager, I was a kid
to say, to your parents. Like, I know you're trying to be
helpful but that's not really helpful for me.
I Even trying to teach them how they could be more helpful
telling them like I just need to vent to you for a second and I
don't want you to try to solve the problem or to give me
suggestions and almost like doing a little bit of coaching.
And from, for parents remembering that like your
teenagers problems are a big deal.
They're learning how to figure things out for themselves and
it's okay to allow them to experience.
All of that ya know, I always like to remind people that Like
obviously everyone has that Universal experience.
Like helping a teenager was really hard, it really sucked
but yeah, haven't totally your brain.
Hasn't finished developing you're not able to fully step
into that, like logistical wise mind reasoning, you really are
feeling your emotions a lot more intensely.
You haven't learned how to cope with them.
You still have a lot of aspects of your life that are being
decided for you. So you're not able to completely
decide your community and your resources and your schedule and
your support systems. So, yes, these Problems or
challenges that you're dealing with 30 years from now you're
like why was I upset over this? But in the moment it's really
overwhelming and those emotions are real, they're valid and and
it can be really tough to navigate especially if you have
this person that a thing like this is fine.
What are you talking about? Just get through it.
It could be so much worse. So I think that's a really
important reminder, for sure. Similarly, I think this is kind
of more something that happens when you are being toxically
positive, but with your internal monologue.
And how does this shame cycle come into play?
So what I see happening for people is that like over here,
they're feeling a certain way, right?
Whether it's like they're sad, whatever.
And then on the other side is like what they think they should
be feeling. I should be happy right now.
I shouldn't be feeling this way. And the discrepancy between
those two like, ends of the spectrum is where shame kind of
comes up. Because you're, you're bullying
yourself, essentially for not being able to feel the way you
think you should be feeling. Yeah no I think that's really
interesting. And if Shane comes up as a
secondary emotion and you're navigating that you're still not
validating or coping with the root Primary Emotion, which is
the same consequence of the toxic positivity.
Like, it's the secondary layer of still not getting those needs
met not getting validated, not feeling seen so that you can
move into that second part of the process and continue to move
forward. I'd love to hear your thoughts
on complaining because I've joked for a long time that I'm a
complainer. And I Haven't really thought
that it's like a terrible thing because I'm like, okay, I get my
my needs met internally. I'm acknowledging when I'm
feeling, I don't think I ought to a crazy degree but I
definitely do like to make. Oh my God, this is so annoying.
So talk to me about how that can be a good thing at times.
Yeah, complaining is one of those things that people talk
about it, like it's a bad habit but everyone does it like.
Yeah, and there are there's a not helpful way to complain and
there's better ways to complain. So what we see reflected in In a
lot of the research on complaining is that if you know
what your goal is, you know, what is the actual problem?
And you know who can help you meet that need or fix that
problem, that complaining and be really useful in creating change
and helping you feel heard helping you get your needs met
that without that you know I think as women were especially
taught not to complain, there's never going to be any change in
the world. Nothing will get done without
somebody. Really Getting out of problem.
No, I completely agree. And I'm writing a philosophy
paper right now. And it's a critique of this
paper about being content with imperfections and to some
extent, I agree. And then to some extent, I'm
like, but we're always going to be evaluating and seeing the
negatives. And if we don't see the
negatives, there would be no motivation to change or improve
anything. So I completely agree with you
there. If you could give a piece of
advice to people that are struggling with tossed, toxic
positivity towards themselves, whether it's like a skill or or
a way, they can rewire thought. What would it be?
I think using the word and is so powerful in trying to
deconstruct this. So saying, I am having this
feeling whatever the distressing thing that you're feeling is.
So I am angry and then adding the word and and there you can
put in something that you're grateful for something that
you're excited about to. Like I am angry about the great
I got on this test and I'm going to study harder next time and
I'm glad I have another chance to get my grades up, whatever it
is. Can help you create that space
for you're looking at all the sides of a situation.
I love that. And that's something I remember
learning when I was in treatment, especially in Family
Therapy. That whenever we were navigating
something it was like, stop using but we're going to say and
instead because no matter what you're saying, no matter how
well you set up this validation as soon as you say.
But the person's like all of, that's erased.
Like okay, what's going on there?
And like we're we're wired to focus on the negatives.
It makes sense, it's kind of it hurts when someone Someone's
like, it's like a break out there.
Like, you are so great, but I've been, they, like dunk you.
So, that shift is huge. And it's such an easy one to
make, is there something you would recommend for people that
notice that someone in their life, whether it's like a boss,
a friend, a parent, a family member is being really toxically
positive and they're noticing that it's impacting their mental
health. I think going back to what we
were talking about with teenagers, like, really trying
to empower yourself, to teach people, how to help you, when
the Chat more in stock. So with the people in your life
that are close to you sharing with them, how to be helpful for
you telling them when things are not helpful.
If there's people that continue to say this stuff to you you
feel like it's not worth your labor to kind of teach them.
It's also okay to stop going to them with these types of things
or when they give you a toxic positivity, phrase just being
like, Oh, thanks so much and changing the subject or walking
away and not taking that. Personally or upon yourself?
Yeah, in a perfect world. Do you see people not ever being
talks Lee positive? Do you see them that happening?
And then people really advocating and demonstrating how
they can get their needs met? Like, what would you like to see
people doing more effectively? Yeah, I think that would be the
most ideal outcome, right? Because all of us like to get
help and give help in different ways and there's no manual for
that. There's no way to like do it.
Exactly. Right.
All the time. That what I'd really like to see
is more people just talking about this and kind of coming
together to meet on that. Yeah, and I think that's so
interesting because, again, it's the audience, it's the setting.
Like, there's been times where people have been like, this is
just a season of life, and it could be so much worse and I'm
like, you're so right. And that's why I need to hear.
And then there's other times where I'm like, are you kidding
me? Like, this is not helpful.
So, it's really it's different. And you do have to advocate for
your needs. You have to To Showcase what
you're hoping to receive. And I think it's so true with
friendships romantic relationships.
Like, parent relationships. It's huge while, I know that so
many teens are going to find this.
So helpful and just learn about this, this pattern that so many
people are experiencing but haven't been able to identify,
or know how to solve. So I'm so glad we got to do
this. Thank you so much for having me,
of course, working people get your book, follow along with you
and continue to consume your content.
You can find me on social media. Instagram, that's it with wet.
And you can get my book, toxic positivity, any where books are
sold? Awesome to recap.
This week's episode Whitney, and I discussed her clinical
experience how she started. Observing toxic positivity both
in her practice and Community. What exactly toxic positivity is
how it shows up in both ourselves and our relationships
negative. Impacts of invalidation
situations. You shouldn't be positive.
What is over validation and the benefits of complaining.
This interview is jam packed with.
You if you enjoyed it as much as I did, make sure to share with a
friend or family member. And if you share on social media
tag me at at she persisted podcast and I'll make sure to
repost and give you a little shout-out.
So with that, I will see you next week.