1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,320 Hello, hello, and welcome to Sheep Persisted, the Gen. 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:04,520 Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie. 3 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:06,360 Sutton A. Psychology student at the 4 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,880 University of Pennsylvania. Let's get into it. 5 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,640 Have you ever known somebody who is really sharp, bright, 6 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,840 popular, and they don't like themselves? 7 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,440 And you wonder why? But adverse childhood 8 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,720 experiences explain a lot of that because shame gets 9 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,440 imprinted in the right brain early on and people can't get 10 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,960 talked out of it often. You got to go deeper to the felt 11 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,200 sense and that's a beauty I think of of what we're learning 12 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,320 that we can heal people, but not in traditional psychology, at 13 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,160 least not initially. Hello, hello you guys and 14 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:43,280 welcome back to She persisted. I am really excited you're here 15 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,640 today. We're have a really interesting 16 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,960 episode all about resilience. We've talked a little bit about 17 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,560 ACE scores and how we can boost our resilience with different 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,720 ways that we think about things and broaden and build theory and 19 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,320 all these different adjacent concepts. 20 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,600 But I don't think we've ever done an episode fully dedicated 21 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,960 to what resilience is, why some of us are more or less 22 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:08,640 resilient, and how we can. Boost our. 23 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,000 Resilience for when we go through challenging periods in 24 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,600 our. Lives so I'm really, really. 25 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,280 Excited for this conversation, it's one of my favorites that 26 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:17,640 I've had. In a while on the. 27 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,320 Podcast Today's guest is Glenn Scarraldi. 28 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:22,640 He has served on the stress management faculties at the 29 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,320 Pentagon, the International Critical Incident Stress 30 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:28,000 Foundation, and the University of Maryland, where he received 31 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,240 the Outstanding Teaching award. He is the author of a number of 32 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,000 articles and books on human mental and physical health and 33 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,080 is the founder of the Resilience Training International, which 34 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,720 teaches practical, effective coping skills to build the 35 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,720 strengths of resilience. We dive into a lot of different 36 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:43,680 areas. In this episode. 37 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,000 We talk about his background in the military and how. 38 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,680 That led him to start. Studying resilience, we talk 39 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,440 about the ways that you can think about your mental health 40 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,000 to boost your resilience and come at it from that angle. 41 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,000 We talk about the psychology of toxic stress and how that 42 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,600 impacts our resilience we talk about the different coping 43 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,560 skills that you want to use in low stress versus high stress 44 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,160 situations because they're really different we talk about 45 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,960 ACE scores, which are a really fascinating concept and 46 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,280 something that you should absolutely be aware of and we 47 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,400 also talk about how that impacts our lifelong stress levels and 48 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,440 how you can heal from adverse childhood experiences. 49 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,720 We talk about finding specialists to work with, how 50 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,560 trauma can impact our shame and self esteem, how to heal from 51 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,760 that self doubt and what you should know about being truly 52 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,840 resilient in your life. So we, we really go everywhere 53 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,880 in this conversation. It's a really, really 54 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,080 fascinating listen and I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I 55 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,200 do. And as always, if you guys find 56 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,960 this episode interesting, make sure to comment, share with a 57 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,440 friend or family member, post about it on social media, leave 58 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,280 a review. It really, really helps the 59 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:46,720 podcast. And I don't. 60 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,120 Want to keep you too long? So with that, let's dive in. 61 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,040 Well, thank you so much for joining me today on Cheaper 62 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:52,840 Assisted. I'm so excited to have you on 63 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,760 the podcast. We've talked about a scores and 64 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,600 resilience a couple times on the podcast, but we've never done a 65 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,400 full episode talking about what is resilience, what contributes 66 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,360 to how resilient we are, especially as young adults, and 67 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,080 how we can improve that. So I'm really excited to have 68 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,280 you on the podcast today and dive into that. 69 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,200 It's great to be with you and I'm so impressed with what 70 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,520 you're doing with your your life experience. 71 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,720 Thank you. I so appreciate that. 72 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,800 I would love to start with your background and research and how 73 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,560 you decided to go into psychology. 74 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,680 What piqued your interest as far as resilience and trauma? 75 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,120 And obviously we're going to talk about a lot of different 76 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,480 dimensions of that in different ways that shows up, but what is 77 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,760 your background? How did you become interested in 78 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,160 this area? I'll try to make this quick. 79 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,560 I always say that my life experience perfectly prepared me 80 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,480 for what I'm doing today. I grew up in a little close knit 81 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,680 community in New York and there was enough chaos in my home that 82 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,840 I can empathize with just about anybody or anything and never be 83 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,160 surprised. But I was surrounded by 84 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,560 wonderful extended family, terrific friends. 85 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,000 I wish everybody could have friends like I had a close 86 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,240 community. We go back to our unions. 87 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,080 People say we always felt so safe in our school and that's 88 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,360 not, you know, what kids are seeing today. 89 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,000 But so I went to the United States Military Academy and West 90 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,360 Point and I was during the Vietnam War and I I saw friends 91 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,680 coming back with post traumatic stress disorder. 92 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,560 I had no idea how to how to help. 93 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,720 After my active duty five years, I stayed in the reserves and 94 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,920 started teaching high school because I like young people and 95 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,200 coaching. And I saw this is a factory town 96 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,800 and kids are struggling with broken homes and drugs and 97 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,080 suicide and and rape. And I had no idea how to help. 98 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,600 So I decided to go back to get my doctorate at the University 99 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,040 of Maryland. They had a wonderful stress 100 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,520 management program and was in public health actually. 101 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:54,080 And so I was, I was free to focus on not just psychology, 102 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,440 but medicine and nutrition and exercise Physiology and 103 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,560 complementary medicine. I was basically looking for 104 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,400 anything that helped, and I was invited to teach stress 105 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,360 management at the Pentagon, where I discovered that you 106 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,440 could really do a lot of good in little small group classes for 107 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,640 functional people, preventively teaching them skills, principles 108 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,760 and skills. And so at the university I was 109 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,880 on loan to the Pentagon for a couple of days a week. 110 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,080 But at the university I started developing, when I came to call 111 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,760 resilience courses. And every day it was here the 112 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,520 principle, here the skill, it's practice it, go home and do it 113 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,400 for two or three days, we'll come back and process how it 114 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,160 worked. And there were skills to prevent 115 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,800 depression and anxiety and anger and build self esteem, which 116 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,160 correlates with all of the previous three. 117 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,200 And we found that everything changed, which is really good 118 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,200 news that you can actually strengthen people by teaching 119 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,640 skills, not just information. I don't find that really helps 120 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,560 much when people are under pressure. 121 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,840 And so that was really good to know. 122 00:05:56,840 --> 00:06:00,200 And so I started a love hate relationship with books because 123 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,880 people come up after class or workshops and say I'm depressed 124 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,480 and I think that's related to stress. 125 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,360 And where do I find a user friendly book? 126 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:08,720 And I say, I don't know, let me look. 127 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,480 And most of the time I couldn't find one. 128 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,320 We started writing books on depression, anxiety, anger, self 129 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,560 esteem, lately resilience and adverse childhood experiences. 130 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,920 So it's kind of important pieces of the puzzle, I think. 131 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,200 And then I retired from the university so that I can devote 132 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,280 more time to writing and training high risk people. 133 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:33,360 And so I work today with the foundation that works primarily 134 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,720 with military cops and firefighters. 135 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,480 My wife and I recently depleted 4 years of running in the 136 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,000 dictionary recovery program, which addictions are often 137 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,320 driven by unresolved pain. And so like you, I think I, I 138 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,560 really love sharing what I wish I knew when I was 18 and hopes 139 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,040 that people suffer unnecessarily because, you know, we, we know 140 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,280 what, what helps, But sometimes it's hard to find that, 141 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:02,520 especially when you're in the throes of, of crisis. 142 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,040 What do you think? Is that difference between 143 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,840 information and skills? Because a lot of the time it's 144 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:11,240 like almost synonymous. It's just kind of how it's 145 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,960 presented. Do you think that framing it as 146 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,160 a skill suggest that people can actually implement it, or that 147 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,320 what they're experiencing is malleable? 148 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,560 Do you have any thoughts there about why skills are so much 149 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,240 more effective than just educating on what's happening? 150 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,080 Well, it's like like a sport I always like in mental health to 151 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,040 golfing or playing piano. You know, you can get a lecture 152 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,600 on beautiful music or beautiful basketball, but that doesn't 153 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,120 make you good at it. You know, it's important to know 154 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,080 big picture concept principles. And so I start with principles. 155 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,240 You got to understand why you're doing a skill, but then it 156 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,560 teaches a coping skill that's got to be practiced. 157 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,280 And I think people think I just read a good book that that'll 158 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,640 fix all my problems. Sometimes it does, but usually 159 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,600 it doesn't. Yeah, yeah. 160 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,960 I want to get into how we define stress and resilience. 161 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,520 And you talked about how that can present in a lot of 162 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,040 different ways, whether it's depression or anxiety, 163 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:13,320 addiction, PTSD. How do you kind of explain 164 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,520 stress and resilience as a psychological concept? 165 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:18,960 Because we've heard these words before. 166 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,680 But a lot of the times when we're either working on 167 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,800 interventions or conducting research, the way that these 168 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,240 things are defined is actually really different from how we use 169 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,200 them in day-to-day language. Right. 170 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,120 It's my whole thing has been take stuff out of the the clinic 171 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,720 in the academic works and make it so that people can understand 172 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,679 it. There are lots of definitions of 173 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,200 stress and resilience, but but the way I generally look at it, 174 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:49,400 stress is anything that calls us to be challenged to adapt. 175 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,800 And some people say, well, stressor is the cause and the 176 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,360 response is called stress. But people generally use those 177 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,440 terms interchangeably. But there is is good stress and 178 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,960 that is what you know, it challenges you, but it's 179 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,640 pleasant. Think of somebody in a flow 180 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,040 state who's at the computer doing something they really like 181 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,240 to do. Then there is tolerable stress 182 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,280 where stress arousal gets elevated, but it doesn't stay 183 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,000 elevated. You can come back to normal 184 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,640 before any damage is done. What we're often talking about 185 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,760 is, is what's called toxic stress, which is stress that is 186 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:30,280 so severe and or chronic that it overwhelms our ability to cope 187 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:33,800 to the point that there is damage literally to our brains 188 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,040 with with excess stress hormones. 189 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,080 And that affects emotions, our ability to cope, our 190 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,440 relationships. And so really it's a question of 191 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,280 how prepared I am to cope with what life is throwing at me. 192 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,160 And so I think a good resilience course has to be comprehensive 193 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,440 enough that it'll equip you with skills for anything that that 194 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,600 life will throw at you. So for example, when I work with 195 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:02,400 cops, it isn't just skills to be a good cop, it's skills to deal 196 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,720 with what you see emotionally. The way I define resilience is 197 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,120 just the inner strengths, strengths of mind, strength of 198 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:15,040 character that help us respond well to the bad stuff, to 199 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,920 adversity. And these skills, these 200 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,840 strengths are innate, capable of being developed, but 201 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,440 specifically what they help us do is prevent stress related 202 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,720 problems like depression, anxiety, PTSD, and so on. 203 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,920 If we suffer those conditions, they tend to be less severe and 204 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,160 with resilience, we tend to rebound quicker. 205 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,360 And then the other part of resilience, which is often left 206 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,840 off and beyond the ability to rebound and resist, is to 207 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,760 optimize mental health and performance. 208 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,440 And so that goes beyond traditional psychology into, you 209 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,480 know, being at your best. Really we want to overcome 210 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,320 suffering, but we also want to enjoy life and and be good at at 211 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:58,880 what we're trying to do, I think. 212 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,480 It's really interesting. We've gotten better at talking 213 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,320 about a lot of mental health concepts. 214 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,080 And I think then I could be wrong because I wasn't in high 215 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,120 school then, but like 50 years ago. 216 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,760 I don't imagine that students were all day every day in high 217 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,000 school being like, I'm so stressed, there's so much to do 218 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,920 I'm burning out. I'm the workload is too much and 219 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,520 now that's a really common experience in high school and a 220 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,320 justified response because you have AP classes and you're 221 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,440 studying for the SAT and AC TS and college exams and the 222 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,640 workloads are increased and we almost lose. 223 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,480 That other side of the. Equation, like you mentioned, 224 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,400 which is that stress can be good. 225 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,640 It allows us to mentally and physically perform better. 226 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,000 It allows us to respond to those challenges. 227 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,240 And so the more we avoid these things, the more intense they 228 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,120 become. And so this narrative that we 229 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,480 hear a lot about burnout and stress and overwhelm all being 230 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,560 negative, there's both sides of that, which I think are an 231 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:53,000 important part of the conversations that we're not 232 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,800 just working to avoid all stress and minimize all potential 233 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,560 stressors in our life. You mentioned different. 234 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,720 Skills for different levels of stress? 235 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,760 Do you have some examples for people of like what a low stress 236 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,680 coping skill would be versus a really high stress intervention? 237 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,480 Yeah, so when I work with the high stress groups, I start out 238 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,560 with the easy stuff so people can get to experience. 239 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:20,760 Hey, this works. For example, I do a 5 minute 240 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,200 foot to head stress reducer and you know, people say, well, I'm 241 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,720 really busy. Can you give me something quick 242 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,000 and make sure? So, so I'll say, OK, just just 243 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,320 sit comfortably and meditate a posture which is kind of be 244 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,240 planned, the floor and and back well supported and just start to 245 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:37,960 notice what's going on in your body. 246 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,800 Because what we know from brain scans is if you can track what 247 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,720 the body is doing, the brain starts to get into the 248 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,560 resilience zone, which is where stress arousal is neither too 249 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:53,120 high nor too low, but just right so that everything is is online. 250 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:55,280 So track what's going on your body. 251 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,240 What is your gluteal muscles feel like on this chair? 252 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,240 What does it feel like to be supported? 253 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,200 And then kind of just do a series of put your hands on your 254 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,800 stomach and just let compassion feel on the in breath your 255 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,480 abdomen. Do a similar thing with your 256 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,600 heart. Do a similar thing with the 257 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,720 warmth of your hands around your eyes. 258 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,400 And then a little massage, little thumb massage, little 259 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,160 tapping, which is drawn from a trauma treatment. 260 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,880 They integrate parts from from our Eastern friends where it 261 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,240 we're just be in contact with your true happy nature. 262 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,680 You know, get under your thoughts, your racing mind and 263 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:36,560 just for a moment rest in your core self, which you don't have 264 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:38,080 to create. It's already there. 265 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,280 It's already happy and wise and kind and, and humorous. 266 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,000 And you just got to be aware of that. 267 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,680 It's, it's innate. That's part of those resilience 268 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,960 qualities we have. So that, that would be like kind 269 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,560 of easy stuff for anybody. Just abdominal breathing is easy 270 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:55,960 stuff. But when I make try to make it a 271 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,320 skill, I'll give people block sheets and I go home and do this 272 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,800 say five times a day when you wake up and you go to sleep. 273 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,760 And then initially at low stress times. 274 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,080 And as you get good at the skill, try it a traffic light or 275 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,040 try it with when somebody irritates you or cuts you off. 276 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,480 The logging, I think it's just increases focus. 277 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,480 And when you look back over three or four days or a week you 278 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,320 go. I can see my ratings improved. 279 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,120 I was getting better at it with practice. 280 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,520 So for example, abdominal breathing, that's so simple and 281 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,560 almost everybody has success with it. 282 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,880 But if you're asked to track it and then know that you're going 283 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,960 to come back, say to a group of class and report on how that go, 284 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,280 then the people tend to fill it in and kind of reinforces their 285 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,040 success. And if they didn't have success 286 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,440 to talk about what would help to to make it better for trauma, 287 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,920 you know, we build on those skills and all sorts of things 288 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,520 that that work sometimes in therapy. 289 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,720 But a lot of things can be self managed. 290 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,400 And this is part of kind of a theme of my life's work is I 291 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,840 want to take skills out of the clinic and give them to people 292 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,880 to use on their own. You know, good therapist is 293 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,320 worth his or her worth in gold. But but I want to make sure 294 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,760 people are self reliant and not just relying on a mental health 295 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,920 professional too. And so many skills that can be 296 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,000 used. For example, a lot of people 297 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,200 have heard of EMDR for trauma, eye movement desensitization, 298 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,480 reprocessing. But when people are having a bad 299 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,560 day and maybe you can't get to the therapist, anybody can sit 300 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,280 and go, OK, what am I feeling? What's going on in my body? 301 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,200 What emotionally am I feeling? What images and thoughts. 302 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,600 And then just follow your own fingers back and forth 24 times. 303 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,960 That's a self help strategy that, you know, it's not a 304 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,960 comprehensive trauma treatment, but it might get you through the 305 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,040 next hour, the next day. I just try to give people a 306 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,920 whole tool bag of skills and they can pick what they need. 307 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:55,800 Yeah, yeah. And it's. 308 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,040 Like you mentioned, like if information is sitting in the 309 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,000 therapy office and talking about the experience and the skills 310 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,680 are going out to the real world and practicing them when you 311 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,760 need it. Both sides of that are really 312 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,880 important to actually feel that difference in in the techniques. 313 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,000 There are some things that can increase our stress and 314 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,000 resilience throughout our whole lives, especially in childhood. 315 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,280 I think people are becoming more familiar with ACE scores. 316 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,400 I think most people listening probably got screened for Aces 317 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,040 when they went to the pediatrician's office and maybe 318 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,640 throughout their whole life. But can you explain to us what 319 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,440 ACE scores are, what adverse child experiences are, and then 320 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,800 how it affects our stress and resilience throughout the rest 321 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,480 of our life? Yeah. 322 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:41,560 So this was one of my recent delights was in 1998 two medical 323 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,760 doctors, Felidian and Anda had access to 17,000 records of 324 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,560 people in an HMO middle class, educated fairly well off and 325 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,240 they found that the more adverse childhood experiences you have, 326 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,920 the more likely you are to suffer from you name it, any 327 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,280 psychological problem, just about any medical problem, any 328 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,079 functional problem on a graduated basis. 329 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:09,160 So the higher your A score, the more prone you are to get ill or 330 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,880 dysfunctional. And so the 10 most common in 331 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,000 that group, Bear in mind that there's lots of others that are 332 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,960 more appropriate for say minority groups or inner city 333 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,160 groups, military people. But it was it was any kind of 334 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:29,360 abuse, mental, physical, emotional, physical or emotional 335 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,760 neglect, living in a home where there's a loss of a parent, from 336 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,360 divorce to separation, seeing domestic violence, seeing 337 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,360 somebody mentally ill or suicidal, on drugs or 338 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:43,280 incarcerated. So typically the more of those 339 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,520 Aces you get, the more likely you are to have some kind of 340 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,840 relatively serious problem, especially once you get to 341 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,240 around four or more. And when you get to six or more, 342 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,520 people lose on average 20 years of life. 343 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,040 Now, that is just mind blowing. And that is about what the 344 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,560 average cop loses. They die about 22 years younger 345 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,680 than their peers, their civilian peers. 346 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,960 So this has been called the most important unaddressed public 347 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,440 health problem facing our Nation Today, because even in 348 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:19,240 California, where a lot of this is being pushed, maybe 10% of 349 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,400 people are really up to speed on aces. 350 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,160 How to heal it and how to not make your kids go through this 351 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,960 again. So there's a lot of skills that 352 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,360 are that are needed. I love the way that this is kind 353 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,680 of graphically depicted. If you think of a fire with 354 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,280 flames and and that's the Aces, the bad stuff including 355 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,720 attachment disruptions and then say 10 feet above is the smoke 356 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,920 and that's all the depression, PTSD and autoimmune problems, 357 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,240 obesity and precocious sex and premature pregnancy, so on, 358 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,600 Felitti said. We do a disservice to treat the 359 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,680 smoke without getting at the flames. 360 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,960 In other words, that the trauma and wounds from the childhood 361 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,280 diversity. What's between the two? 362 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,600 It is dysregulated stress, stress that is either stuck on 363 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,840 too high or too low. And that is what causes all 364 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,240 these emotional and even brain development changes. 365 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,240 And if you like it, I always find it fascinating to talk 366 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,640 about how the brain develops after ACES. 367 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,000 It's very different than a kid who's securely attached and and 368 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,760 living in a secure home. But people suffer for decades, 369 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:37,440 sometimes not realizing there are treatments that are healing. 370 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,640 And so suffering is is often unnecessary. 371 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,480 But it's usually not talk therapy for a lot of different 372 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,280 reasons. You know, we we train our young 373 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,480 people today still in in will talk to me about what you're 374 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,080 thinking about what you're feeling. 375 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,240 But the problem is people are traumatized in the 1st 18 years 376 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,080 of life and particularly in the first three years of life. 377 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,480 Trauma doesn't register in the verbal logical left brain. 378 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:12,200 It registers in the non verbal right brain unconsciously. 379 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,440 A lot of this stuff is below the level of awareness. 380 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,440 So when you're thinking calmly, you can say, well I'm upset 381 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,840 because of XY and Z. The right brain says, I don't 382 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,320 know if I could put words to that. 383 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,440 I just feel a felt sense. It's kind of my body, it's kind 384 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,760 of emotional. And so you can't talk to what's 385 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,360 registering lodging in the right brain, but you can come at it 386 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:39,040 from a body based in other words, reduce arousal in the 387 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,280 body, that reduces arousal in the survival brain, the 388 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,800 emotional brain. And then ultimately that'll calm 389 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,680 the left brain, cognitive brain so that you can eventually talk 390 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,480 about it. But you start with treatments 391 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,920 that that calm arousal come the body and also deal with images 392 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,960 because that's what the right brain does. 393 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,560 Just one more point about brain development. 394 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,600 The first three years are critical. 395 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,760 The left brain isn't even developed in the first three 396 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,840 years, but the right brain is. And so a lot of people say, 397 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,680 well, you're an adult now, just get over it. 398 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,120 Well, what you're asking someone to get over is something they 399 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:24,000 don't even recall is the felt sense of dread or shame. 400 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,680 And sometimes it comes from bad environments like abuse, but 401 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,200 sometimes it's just a fairly good family where the kid is 402 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,720 just exposed to super high expectations that they think 403 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,960 maybe I can't meet those expectations. 404 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,800 And so low self esteem and shame often gets imprinted. 405 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:47,080 Have you ever known somebody who is really sharp, bright, popular 406 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,560 and they don't like themselves and you wonder why? 407 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,840 But adverse childhood experiences explain a lot of 408 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,360 that because shame gets imprinted in the right brain 409 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,880 early on and people can't get talked out of it because it's 410 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,720 not on the left brake that you can reason. 411 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,320 I mean, cognitive therapy can help to a degree, but often you 412 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,080 got to go deeper to the felt sense and that's very different 413 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,280 approach. You know, it's a body based 414 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,880 imagery kind of approach and that's a beauty. 415 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,680 I think of of what we're learning from adverse childhood 416 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,960 experiences that we can heal people, but not in traditional 417 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,840 psychology, at least not initially. 418 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,160 What are your favorite? Techniques for addressing that 419 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,560 felt sense that more internal experience and response to 420 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,440 stress. Is it a certain type of therapy? 421 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,720 We mentioned breath work. Do you have any of these that 422 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,200 work really well with your patients or that you've seen a 423 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,840 lot of success with or that people find to be really 424 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,040 effective and kind of decrease that feeling of being out of 425 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,560 control or not knowing how to navigate what they're 426 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,720 experiencing? Yeah, So as a public health guy, 427 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,920 my my role is to educate people, ideally preventively, and then 428 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,040 also to help steer them to the right kind of treatment. 429 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,360 The treatments I've been most impressed with, people are 430 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:13,720 pretty aware of EMDR and we know that eye movements calm the 431 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,040 emotional centers of the brain, and that's wonderful. 432 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,760 The thing that I'm most impressed with, the treatment 433 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,360 I'm most impressed with is what's called accelerated 434 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:23,960 resolution therapy. Have you heard of this one? 435 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,640 No, I came across it when I was looking at what helps traumatize 436 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,680 soldiers, and it was found that this worked even quicker than 437 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,520 EMDR, sometimes went through three sessions. 438 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:42,120 So it uses eye movements, but it brilliantly adds many, many 439 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,240 different approaches, creative, innovative approaches. 440 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,760 And so the way this works is you start with a body. 441 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,680 OK, so you have this bad memory. Let's notice where on your body 442 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,920 you feel the emotions and let's calm it with eye movements. 443 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:04,600 And then let's pull up the image itself and calm that with eye 444 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,400 movements. And then let's erase and replace 445 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,280 that image and re reinforce that with eye movements. 446 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:18,880 And then ultimately, let's imagine a future where you cross 447 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,520 a bridge to a, a place where you're you're feeling happy and 448 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,880 well adjusted and you're leaving all your baggage on the other 449 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,240 side of that that bridge and let's 3 and 479 movements. 450 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,400 It is brilliant. Lady Rosenstweig was trained in 451 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,640 the MDR and she started adding all these innovative things to 452 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,080 make it better, I think. And she was told you can't do 453 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,080 that. You either have to stop doing it 454 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,880 or don't call the MDR. So she's called it and I am just 455 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,440 so impressed and, and the research is still fairly new, 456 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,280 but impressive for the few years relatively that it's been 457 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,760 around. But but therapists getting 458 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,080 trained in this and they're really enthusiastic about it. 459 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,120 And I've had a number of people say, you know, where can I go? 460 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:09,400 And I said, look on the website acceleratedresolutiontherapy.com, 461 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,520 find a a therapist in your area. And I never anybody come back 462 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,720 and say that didn't work. I hated it. 463 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,720 Well, I will put that in the show notes. 464 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:20,560 For sure. So, people. 465 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,760 Can look in their city or state and find a clinician if they're 466 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,560 looking for that approach. Yeah, it's, it's very, very 467 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,080 impressive. I've just seen things happen in 468 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,960 one or two or three sessions that were, you know, could take 469 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,680 weeks or months or years. Like it's called intensive 470 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,200 trauma recovery. I was invited to a trauma 471 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,240 conference at the University of West Virginia, and I talked 472 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,280 about dissociation and how people can understand what that 473 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,080 is as a part of trauma. And I started talking to the 474 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:56,080 organizers, a psychiatrist and his spouse who was a PhD art 475 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,480 therapist, and they came up with this treatment that I thought, 476 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,760 this is brilliant. I want to learn more about this 477 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,560 and start training with them. And what it does is it divides a 478 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,000 trauma which typically is all blurred and all crazy and the 479 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,840 brain doesn't process it well and intrudes and so forth. 480 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,320 But it it gives the trauma memory structure by saying, here 481 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,280 are the seven phases of the instinctual trauma response. 482 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,200 Draw each one and then talk to me to the therapist about what's 483 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,040 going on there. And then watch as I, the 484 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:35,080 therapist, post your drawings on a whiteboard or wall and in a 485 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,760 very kind, compassionate way, tell your story. 486 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,320 So now you're eventually putting words to that. 487 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,680 But art, sometimes I can't talk about what's going on inside, 488 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,360 but I can express it with my hand, and that does. 489 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,080 And so in a Safeway, you hear that your trauma memory has a 490 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,600 beginning, a middle, and an end. It's over, it's in the past and 491 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:05,280 like ART, sometimes that can be done very, very quickly and set 492 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,000 all memory in a way that that lasts without re traumatizing 493 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,600 people. So those are the two that I 494 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,440 really, really like. And while we're talking about 495 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:21,800 finding good treatments, Sidran, SIDRAN, if you send a e-mail to 496 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,000 them, they're in Baltimore area and give them your ZIP code, 497 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,440 they'll say, OK, here are people who identify as a trauma 498 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,080 specialist. OK. 499 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,320 Those skills are different than just traditional talk therapy. 500 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:35,640 Yeah. Yeah. 501 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,960 Quality assurance. But at least you can get 502 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,440 somebody who's, you know, attuned to trauma. 503 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,760 So yeah, I love. That and I think it's definitely 504 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,720 helpful to know exactly what to search for because especially if 505 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,200 you're dipping your toe in the water, you haven't been in 506 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,800 therapy before. It's not super intuitive that 507 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,080 oh, all therapists might not have these backgrounds or they 508 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,840 might not specialize in this area. 509 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,600 It's not like you go to a General practitioner and they're 510 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,600 like, oh, actually you got to receive this specialist. 511 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,760 Sometimes it can be a little bit more on the patient to kind of 512 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,680 lead that process and advocate. So it's definitely a learning 513 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,880 curve. Yeah. 514 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,800 And I think to the end, initiated, we think all 515 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,400 therapists are the same. Well, they're not. 516 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,400 And you got to be a really good consumer. 517 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,480 And some people get discouraged because sometimes you find one 518 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,440 that's not particularly skilled in in trauma therapy, you know. 519 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,440 So ask them, interview them and say here's my problem, I'm 520 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,160 interested in treating it. What have you got? 521 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,600 And, you know, find out, am I comfortable with that person? 522 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,560 Do they have the experience to treat when I'm troubled by? 523 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,800 Yeah. You mentioned that shame and 524 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,360 self esteem can also be part of this equation. 525 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,440 I'm curious how that shows up. Is it something that people are 526 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,840 thinking through? Like maybe they're like I'm not 527 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,440 responding to stress in the way that my peers are? 528 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,520 Or I feel like I should be having a different experience 529 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,000 here and then shame and self esteem comes into play? 530 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,760 Or is it more like a something that subconsciously gets 531 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,800 correlated between the two? How does that relationship play 532 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,240 out? OK, so in our diagram here, 533 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,520 here's this, there is a smoke and here's this regulated 534 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,880 stress. Off to the side. 535 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,080 I put shame and self dislike which is basically low self 536 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,640 esteem. It doesn't always happen this 537 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,800 way, but let's say a child is unwanted and that child gets 538 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:30,720 messages from a caregiver, mom, dad, or a significant adult 539 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,360 figure. Maybe it's words, but it's not 540 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,400 so much the words, it's the feeling tone that a young child 541 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,320 in the right brain will register. 542 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,600 So maybe it's a disgusted or angry look that the parent gives 543 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:45,720 kid. Can't reason that out, but it 544 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,360 gets ingrained in the brain. And so maybe 20 years later, as 545 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,920 a accomplished adult that now adults thinks, I don't feel like 546 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,720 I deserve this. I don't feel worthy. 547 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,360 And it's not necessarily something they're consciously 548 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,480 saying aloud, although it might be. 549 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,560 It's more like a felt sense, a sense of dread, a sense of I'm 550 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,400 not good enough. And so cognitive therapy might 551 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,200 help, but that's a left brain approach. 552 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,840 And so, you know, you try to go at the shame. 553 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,440 And so in a bottom up and imagery way. 554 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,280 And so in, in the workbook that I fairly recently completed, the 555 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,040 Adverse Childhood Experiences Recovery workbook, the idea that 556 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,960 I try to convey is trauma by definition is overwhelming. 557 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,840 It overwhelms our ability to cope. 558 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,640 And so it's good. There's no shame in asking for a 559 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,840 coach. You know, a world class athlete 560 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,440 generally has a coach with no shape. 561 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,640 You know, we take specialized military equipment and and take 562 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,160 it offline and give it maintenance and service and 563 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,200 sometimes we need that too. And so if you can find a good 564 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,200 trauma therapist, it's a great idea, but the problem is a lot 565 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,360 of people will never get the treatment that would help them 566 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,560 for a variety of reasons, cost or stigma or I don't know where 567 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,680 to go or I tried it once and I don't think anything's going to 568 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,160 work because they don't realize all the different options. 569 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,840 And so in the work like a layout, like a eight step skill 570 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,880 based plan to heal from trauma. And for some people, they can do 571 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,840 that on their own, self managed. Others will maybe use it as an 572 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,120 adjunct to working with a therapist. 573 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,560 And sometimes therapists will get into the workbook and say, 574 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,360 oh, let's work on this skill today together and, and see how 575 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,640 it goes. But there are skills to regulate 576 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,520 dysregulated stress, to regulate strong distressing emotions 577 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,760 which maintain that stress arousal. 578 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:45,840 There are brain keys, there are 9 or 10 keys that help the brain 579 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,680 prepare to rewire so that these old memories are not continually 580 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,720 driving your adult show. We can strengthen and stabilize 581 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,200 the nervous system through imagery, imagery that simulates 582 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,960 what an ideal attachment relationship would have looked 583 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,160 like. And again, that's not logic so 584 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,440 much so. It's just imagine yourself as a 585 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,440 as a young child being loved and and cared for and enjoyed by 586 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,280 that ideal caregiver, whether it's mom or dad or both. 587 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,680 What would that feel like? What would it, what would it 588 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,200 feel like to hear that soothing tone or to see the smile or 589 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,320 loving gaze in the eyes? Anythings possible in imagery. 590 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,240 Imagery can be very, very powerful. 591 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,280 At that point then you're you're ready to go after the trauma 592 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,800 memory and rework the image. There's some float back 593 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,120 strategies where you'll you'll take a upset in the present and 594 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,120 go why did I so overreact and trace that back to the earliest 595 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,760 memory where you had similar feelings of shame or being 596 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,760 insulted or criticized and settled that core memory as 597 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,080 well. After you've done that, there's 598 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,640 often remnants of shame lurking in the recesses of her mind. 599 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,800 And so there's some imagery skills to rework, shame 600 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,240 programming that's imprinted in the brain. 601 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,400 And at that point, you're then ready to do what I call 602 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,880 transition skills because life is about more than just 603 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,200 overcoming suffering. You know what kind of skills 604 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,800 will lead to a happier, more satisfying life. 605 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,840 And that gets into pleasant activities, it gets into 606 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,640 forgiving, it gets into developing character traits that 607 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,920 I feel good about when I look in the mirror. 608 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,200 That's something that psychology books don't often talk about, 609 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,800 but there's research that shows that people feel less traumatic 610 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,680 stress symptoms when they feel good about who they are inside 611 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,840 their character, even not just in America, but in Europe and 612 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:49,040 and in Buddhist countries, like people who adhere to the five 613 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,400 tenets of Buddhism, which I can remember them all. 614 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:57,360 No intoxicants, no sexual abuse or misconduct, no lying, 615 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,480 cheating or stealing. Less depression, less stress. 616 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,520 So character I think is really important and often is 617 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,520 overlooked. Sometimes people are damaged 618 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,320 morally by the way they're treated, but then sometimes we 619 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,040 get older, we make decisions that we don't feel good about. 620 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,400 And so part of resilience is learning how to rebound and be 621 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,880 kind and look ahead because no one is irredeemable. 622 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,440 No one is unchangeable. So there's a lot of hope, but 623 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:30,719 it's one of those things we don't really talk about too 624 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,320 often. I'm curious. 625 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,080 And this is. Totally just a theoretical. 626 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,080 I'm not sure that there's an actual study or an actual 627 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,880 measure of this, but do you think that most of us have some 628 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,239 ineffective relationship between like those childhood experiences 629 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,000 and how we relate to stress? Maybe you don't have any score 630 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,639 or maybe you don't have the four to six that have that huge 631 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,560 impact on your outcomes. But do you think generally 632 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,920 everyone to some degree could be more effective with that 633 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,480 relationship to stress and then how we respond internally? 634 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,640 Yeah, so I had the privilege of of getting to know a lot of 635 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,320 students over the decades. I was at the university. 636 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,200 We had little small discussion classes and we were talking 637 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,240 about this a little before. You would be surprised how many 638 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:21,560 people who on the outside look all put together. 639 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,440 Great. But I think just being mortal, 640 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,800 you know, we have, we question ourselves. 641 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,320 We don't feel good enough. You know, it's just a question 642 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,760 of degree. One of my friends said 643 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,200 everybody's got emotional problems. 644 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,280 Just a question to what degree? You know, the skills are the 645 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,040 skills and they help anybody in any, any state of emotional 646 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,960 development. You know, it's just a question 647 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,600 sometimes. How much help do we need with 648 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,000 developing those skills? Some people can learn it on 649 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,000 their own and they're basically doing pretty well. 650 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,840 But, you know, you can tweak a little things here and there, 651 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,360 other people. That's when it's good to have a 652 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,400 therapist because understandably, you know, you've 653 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,240 been through a lot of hard stuff and somebody kind of walk you 654 00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:01,600 through the healing process would be really useful. 655 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,600 Yeah, 100%. There is a study that many 656 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,400 countries around the world, 99% of people have regrets. 657 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,280 Wow. And I think the 1% are probably 658 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,320 sociopaths. They didn't understand the 659 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,240 question. I mean, who, who doesn't ever 660 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:21,360 make mistakes, you know? So part of this, I think, is 661 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,600 being compassionate, having self esteem that says that was a 662 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,760 mistake. I don't feel good about it, but 663 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,040 it doesn't make me worthless or irredeemable. 664 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,160 Yeah. Makes me human. 665 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,160 Yeah, very related. If you could like wave a magic 666 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,440 wand and young adults could have one skill or one way they 667 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,800 thought about things with regard to emotional resilience or how 668 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,160 they navigate stress. Maybe it's a preventative 669 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,360 measure, maybe it's something they learn in school. 670 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,400 What would that? Be what I love to do when I'm 671 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,640 training groups like Federal Employees and Nation's Capital 672 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,920 is ask them what do you think resilience is and what would you 673 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,480 expect to take from our two days together or four days together? 674 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,960 Some some of the best definition of resilience came not from 675 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,360 academics or theorists, but from people in the trenches. 676 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,080 And one nurse at a large Children's Hospital said, I 677 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,960 think resilience is the capacity to absorb stress and maintain 678 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,920 yourself. And to me, that speaks to the 679 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,640 feeling of worth, the feeling inside of being quietly glad to 680 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,320 be who you are. That is independent of 681 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,080 externals. So much of her culture says you 682 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,360 have no worth unless you're bold and beautiful and rich and 683 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,800 accomplished and have a nice car and and, and a great job. 684 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:52,080 Those are nice sometimes, but it, it's not the good feeling 685 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,200 you get when you look in the mirror. 686 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,160 And so I think, I think there are a series of self esteem 687 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,360 skills that I've, you know, I, I started teaching in my courses 688 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,200 and then wrote it up in a workbook, the self esteem 689 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,800 workbook. And the way that came about is I 690 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,280 studied under the leading self esteem researcher, Morris 691 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,920 Rosenberg in 1980. I said, Doctor Rosenberg, you've 692 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,880 spent your whole life documenting how low self esteem 693 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,480 causes problems in people. What do you do if someone 694 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,440 doesn't have it? You know what he said? 695 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:30,360 He said, I don't know. And so, well, that's no good. 696 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,680 So I'm going to make a course up and, and I plumbed the 697 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,600 literature and I boiled it down to skills that could be 698 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,400 practiced. And we found you can actually 699 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,960 improve self esteem with skills, practice skills that related to 700 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,840 a sense of unconditional worth as a, as a human, not market 701 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:55,040 worth, not social worth, but inner human worth, unconditional 702 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,200 love and the process of growing. And I think we learn a lot from 703 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,000 our friends in the East. All of that done with compassion 704 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,000 because it's difficult to do everything right. 705 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,280 But we can try. And as long as you know, I love 706 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,440 John Wooden, the the old Hall of Fame basketball coach. 707 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,520 Success isn't the scoreboard. Success is the satisfaction and 708 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,560 Peace of Mind of knowing that you've done your best. 709 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,200 Sometimes the other teams better. 710 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,680 Some problems we can't solve, but we can feel good if we know 711 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,120 we're good at the old college try. 712 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,520 And so a lot of self esteem is just kindness. 713 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,120 Not that we soften out our expectations. 714 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,400 It's it's healthy to have good expectations, but to pursue them 715 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,280 with kindness, with love and never with punishment. 716 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,520 I think that's sometimes as parents, we make a mistake. 717 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,040 You know, if I just Robbie, my kids do good, do good, do good 718 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,840 everything work out good. I think it's more important to 719 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,880 teach kids to enjoy doing your best and accept the outcome well 720 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,280 if people want. To get your workbooks that you 721 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,040 mentioned or follow along with your work. 722 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:08,240 Where are they able to do that? If you just go to Amazon and and 723 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,480 search the books under my name, Glenn Shiraldi, or you can go to 724 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,400 my website, resiliencefirst.com, but the books are generally easy 725 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,200 to find. That's where I usually get all 726 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,840 my books from Amazon. Yes, amazing. 727 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,880 Well, I will put all of those in the show notes. 728 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,640 And thank you so much for. This conversation, I know it's 729 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,440 going to help. So, so, so many people. 730 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:30,880 You're very welcome and thank you.