Welcome to Sheeper Assisted. I'm your host Sadie Sutton, a 19
year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the
University of Pennsylvania. Sheeper Assisted is the teen
mental health podcast made for teenagers by a teen.
In each episode I'll bring you authentic, accessible and
relatable conversations about every aspect of mental Wellness
you can expect. Evidence based teen approved
resources, coping skills including lots of DBT insights
and education, and each piece of content you consume.
She Persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and
understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take
ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.
So let's dive in. This week on She Persisted.
Its main business is just defrauding parents into thinking
that they are something that they're not.
And a lot of parents look at these glossy marketing materials
and it looks great. And they think that just because
it exists that there is some regulatory body, but there
isn't. They fall under all these
loopholes. And you have a lot of
unqualified, unlicensed, unregulated people being like,
I'm gonna do this crazy therapy, pay me all this money and do it.
And there's no one vetting that stuff to see, is this actually
evidence based? Does this help or does this
hurt? Hello, hello, and welcome back
to She Persisted. We are in episode 2 out of three
of our miniseries on the troubled teen industry.
This is a super exciting episode because we have Catherine Kubler
on the podcast. If you were at all familiar with
the Triple T industry, I am sure you've heard her name.
She is the director of the program, which is a Netflix
documentary about the TTI, and it was just so incredibly done,
was in the top charts. It was really a very healing
experience as a survivor to watch.
And so I highly recommend you watch that if you either went to
a program or you just want to learn more about the industry
because she just did such an incredible job explaining its
leadership and how expansive it is.
She really explained and how WASP, the Worldwide Association
of Specialty Programs, came to exist and how it became so
problematic and how little evidence there is backing the
quote UN quote treatment that they were doing in these
programs. And so in addition to being the
director and a survivor of Ivy Ridge, she also a writer and
producer. And I have all of her
information in the show notes if you want to check her out.
But in this episode, we talked about how she decided to create
the program and create a documentary about her
experiences and the triple industry as a whole.
We talk about what a lot of these programs look like red
flags that people can be aware of.
If there is any evidence supporting these types of
interventions, spoiler alert, there is not.
And then we also talk about the experience as a survivor because
she not only speaks to her own lived experiences so much in the
documentary, but she also featured a lot of her peers and
friends who also went to Ivy Ridge.
And it was really, really impactful to hear them
articulate what it was like after leaving the program and
reintegrating with real life and coming to terms with what they
experienced. So this was a really incredible
interview. I'm so grateful that Catherine
made the time. I know you guys are going to
love this one. And next week you guys get to
hear from me about my experiences.
And then we're back to regular programming.
So I really hope you enjoy this. As always, information is in the
show notes. If you want to learn more about
Catherine, make sure to leave a review, subscribe for more.
Let me know on social media what you think.
And with that, let's dive in. Well, to get things started, I'm
so excited to have you on the podcast.
I was so excited when I heard on social media that there was a
troubled teen documentary coming to Netflix.
And when I watched it, it was just such a healing experience
to be able to see how you guys depicted the healing process and
everything that you showed about kind of unraveling these
memories and experiences you had.
And it was also so informative. And so I watched it with my mom.
And so for anyone that wasn't totally aware of like how
extensive the trouble teen industry is or how much is going
on there, you guys just did a phenomenal job.
So that is how I kind of became aware of you.
But I'm really excited to have you on and talk about everything
that has come of the documentary and next steps and all the
thanks. So thank you for being with me
here today. Yeah, of course.
Thank you for having me. I always appreciate the
opportunity to discuss it more of.
Course well to get things started, I'd kind of love to
hear your background and why you decided to actually make the
documentary I think this is something that a lot of
survivors struggle with is speaking out and sharing their
story and also how much to share and you did like the most
effective storytelling ever with a very top charting Netflix
documentary. So I'm really curious what that
process was like. Obviously they've since closed,
but a lot of these people just circulate around different
programs. And you talked about like the
larger overarching structure that's still really involved in
today's programs. So it was that process like how
did you decide to start the documentary and do that on such
a such a large scale? Cause for a lot of people,
there's still a lot of fear there.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I was in the
program myself, so I had this first hand experience and I, I
had no idea that these places existed until I was sent to one.
I was inside one. I didn't even know prior to
being sent until I was actually there.
And while I was there I was like, well this is insane.
Like, I didn't know places like this could exist.
And I was, you can see in the documentary from my home video
archive, I was filming everything from a very young
age. I was obsessed with home videos
and always filmmaking all the time.
So when I was in the program, I was like, well, this is insane.
I need to make a documentary about this.
Like, this is crazy. So while I was there, I was
like, as soon as I get out, I'm going to expose these places.
Yeah. So I got out of the program and
immediately started looking for any resources to kind of help
explain what had happened to me. And there really wasn't anything
out there at the time. And the Internet, like social
media was just becoming a thing. Like Myspace didn't exist before
I got in the program. And when I got out, that's how
we all started finding each other afterwards because we
weren't allowed to share contact information.
We're in the program. And then I found my Sullivitz's
book, Help at Any Cost. How the trouble teen industry
calms parents and hurts kids. And it blew my mind.
It was amazing. She was the first person to
really break open the story and show the connections with WASP
and the whole troubled teen industry as a whole.
And it was great. So I actually first interviewed
Maya and you can see some of my early interviews with her back
in 2010, and she kind of like set me down the path of
exploring and investigating this.
So I'm really grateful for the groundwork she laid into this.
And so like I said, I got out of the program in in 2005.
Then 2006 to 2010, I was in film school out in LA.
And as soon as I graduated, I was like, all right, time to
start making a documentary. And I was pretty naive about how
difficult it would be to make a documentary 'cause I was like,
oh, it's no problem. Like I'll just do it and it'll
be easy. But there are lots of challenges
with trying to make a documentary on this kind of
thing. And one of the big obstacles is
trying to get any visual media of it because they don't let you
film inside these places. They're very secretive.
And so I was doing things like going undercover.
I got some hidden cameras and snuck into like a WASP seminar
for parents back in 2010. And I was going all around the
country finding people to talk to me or trying to find experts.
And there weren't that many experts besides, like Maya and
Phil and, you know, a couple others at the time.
So Fast forward up to 2020 after after like a decade of kind of
exploring this industry because sorry, talking over myself
again, but. No, I love it.
When like, because when I got out, I thought that it was just
Ivy Ridge or WASP, you know, to the extent I knew about it.
But very quickly I found out that my experience was just the
tip of the iceberg, that this was like a whole huge industry
that had been going on for decades.
And there was so much more. And I found that out because
when I was trying to find anything on, I would find
forums, but they seem to be talking about other programs,
which I would later find would be about Straight Incorporated
or CD or these other programs. So then I was like, well this is
huge. Let me do a documentary on this
whole industry. Fast forward to 2020, after a
decade of looking into this whole industry and piercing
things together, come to find that it was my very own program
that was abandoned and left all the evidence behind.
So now all of a sudden, you know, always having this
obstacle of like, well, what am I going to show?
All of a sudden we had access to the whole building and this
incredible set piece to just walk through and see everything
and we had all the evidence. It was insane finding this like
Time Capsule and all these documents that were, you know,
therapy notes, our birth certificate, Social Security
cards, medical records, like all the documentation of everything
that went down there that we'd never thought anyone would
believe us about, and then even security footage.
So anyway, that's a long answer, but there you go.
No, it's, it's really incredible and even just subjectively
trying to piece together the like survivors experience, it's
really hard. And I, I'd love to get your
thoughts on this as well, because I think what I found is
that I left, I was still under 18.
And I think there was a lot of like compartmentalization that
happened and some fear until I turned 18.
And then it was like, OK, I can't be sent back.
And there was really more mental willingness to explore what had
happened and what my feelings were.
But after I left, there was still that like, OK, they could
come. Not that they would hopefully,
but like it was still technically a possibility that I
could go back to a program at any day.
And so that I think is a very daunting experience for people
in those first couple of days. And then as time goes on, you
the human memory is horrible. We're so bad at remembering
things, but it's also this element of everything has been
normalized. And you guys spoke to this in
the documentary that depending on how girls and of course Ivy
Ridge was Co Ed and had different sides, but how girls
comply with the program really impacts their emotions towards
things. And I think also the memories as
well, because I was one of like the put your head down.
I was a people pleaser. Like it was just, that was kind
of how I got through for 14 months.
And so when I left, everything had been normalized for a year.
And like we don't remember what we ate for lunch three years
ago. And so it was kind of that same
idea where like everything in my mind has been normalized and
catalogued away and not been like, oh, that was weird or not
right or maybe not OK. And so trying to unpack these
things and look back and be like, OK, was, was this right?
Was this not right? How do I actually feel about
this without my ability to talk to my family or go home being in
question? That was a really scary and
weird piece to navigate. And so I'm curious for you guys.
You did such a good job articulating not only your
experience is there, but then your experience is after you
left. And I'm wondering how you went
through that process knowing that you probably did normalize
a lot of things where you, like. Don't think about that.
I don't want to get in trouble. That can't happen.
And then the time piece is also huge.
Yeah. Yeah, so few things there.
Well, first, back to what you said about, you know, it just
being hard to even speak about for a while because there is so
much shame and like, humiliation about it.
No one really wants to talk about it.
And I think that's how most kids are when they get out of the
program. They just want to forget about
it and not talk about it again. For me, however, I just refuse
to normalize what happened. I was just like, no, you're not
going to convince me that this is OK.
This is just insane. And I don't know what it was
that I was just like, I refuse to accept this as normal.
But most other people, like my friends Alexa and Molly, I had,
I had first reached out to them back in 2010 when I was trying
to make this, asking them like, hey, could I interview for the
documentary? And they're both like, oh, sure,
maybe. And then kind of blew me off.
They didn't really want to do it.
A lot of people didn't really want to talk about it all wanted
to kind of forget about that chapter of our lives and just
move on because it's too insane of a thing.
You just kind of have to like pretend it never happened.
But, you know, the body keeps the score, and you can't really
ever forget that. But yeah.
And it's also because the program, like, tells you and
your parents are telling you that what happened to you is
normal and that you deserved it. And I was like, I don't think
so. And it really wasn't until I
read Maya's book that it was the first time that an adult and an
authority figure said, hey, what happened to you was not right,
and here's why and just explain it.
And I was like, yes, like, I knew it was wrong, but I didn't
have the vocabulary or education to understand why it was
abusive. But I was like, this is just not
right. And so now, you know, Maya kind
of laid out that framework to literally reframe the experience
that we had because you're being abused, you're being told you
deserve this and this is OK. And you have to go back and then
reframe that whole experience and see it through different
lens. And once you see it that way,
that really helps with the healing process of understanding
it and then to speak. To sorry I had the most long
winded question. No, no, it's good.
It's all important stuff to talk about.
Yeah. As far as then getting my
friends to eventually talk about it, what, when word started
getting out that the building was abandoned and all our files
are in there and people started making trips back and getting
it, we were all like, all right, let's talk about.
So we have a group chat with all my friends that are in the
documentary, all my friends from Ivy Ridge.
And as things are coming together, it's like, all right,
I'm going to pick up the doc again.
Let's all talk about how we're going to do this or like what
it's going to be. And so we would have Zoom
meetings and at first, I think it was like every Sunday at the
start of it, we're doing it. And they'd be like hours long
because we'd all just, we were all like collectively having
mental breakdowns with all of this stuff thrown back into our
lives again, finding all our files and going through it.
And you've remembered that ended up being like the forgotten.
Yeah. It was this like group therapy
session where we're all, and because we remembered each other
from the program, so we were able to kind of fill in
different parts of people's memories, be like, do you
remember this or that? And This is why I love
documentaries or just documentation for victims of
psychological abuse. When you are gaslit so much, it
is so nice to have a record or a document that proves you're not
crazy. And all of a sudden we had so
much of that and it was incredible.
So through these hours long Zoom sessions of all of us, just kind
of like, you know, retelling all our memories and validating and
corroborating and filling in different sides of the story and
then digging through the files and finding things to
corroborate it. It really, I mean, it was
amazing. It was so incredible to have
that treasure trove of information to back everything
up that we knew had happened. And it's it's also crazy how
many things we just completely forget.
And then you're like, wow, I blocked that out completely.
So yeah, yeah, there's a whole. I had the yeah, the same
experience and I think like having that adult figure that
tells you, OK, it's OK, how you feel what you experienced wasn't
normal. And let's unpack that for me.
That was I had a therapist after the troubled teen industry,
which I got really lucky to be sandwiched from both sides.
I went from a very evidence based residential program at
McLean, which is Harvard affiliated and they do DBT,
which like we know is so much evidence and I talked to my
parents multiple times a day. They flew every week.
So like world of a difference and then fourteen months at a
therapeutic boarding school and then afterwards I did outpatient
with a really incredible DBT therapist again.
And so she was one of the people that I went to.
She I don't even know what version of me she like received
after I graduated the troll teen industry and was had I read my
graduation speech the other day and I was like, what am I
apologizing for? You're like, what is happening?
But anyways, she was the one that was like, yeah, that's not
right and that's not normal. And these are the words to
describe these things. Like even the way you're
speaking about it now, clearly that wasn't right.
And so to have that validation from an adult figure, which is
so much more challenging in the troubled teen industry for
survivors, because a lot of the times parents are either
believing the program or they were also like, there's also
that kind of moral battle as well.
And so finding someone that play states your emotions, but not in
like a pitying way, But being like that really wasn't right.
And if we look at all the evidence and all the
information, that's not supposed to happen to you.
And I think that is so incredibly important in the
healing process. And thanks to you, there's now a
really incredible documentary that does that in addition to
the books and people's podcasts are out there.
But I completely agree that that's just such an important
part of that healing for covering part of the part of the
process of waking up. Yeah, absolutely.
It was funny. There's so many times when we
were filming, especially like early on when I was trying to
get all my friends just comfortable in front of the
camera. We all we all met up together in
Bend, OR and it was the first time we were all really together
since the program and I just brought my camera guy.
Pi was like, look, I don't know if we're going to film anything,
but like you should be there because we're all just getting
it. We should just film it.
And so we're all just in there and we're telling stories and
remembering stuff. And then at different points we
turn to Pete and we're like, is this bad?
Does this sound bad? And he's like, yeah, no, like
this, this is crazy. Or we'd be talking and then he'd
stop you like, whoa, hold up a second.
He's like, this is the first time hearing about a riot.
And we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, the riot.
Or just they're just different things that were just so
normalized to us or whatever that so often we go to people
like, is this bad or are we being dramatic?
Like, I don't know. Because it's so it's, it's
really good to get that validation from other people
because again, this is normal for us since you have to get a
level set and just be like, OK, what what is actually OK.
And so I hope that this documentary, though, I'm sure is
re traumatizing for a lot of survivors to see it at the very
least provides some validation about it.
And also hopefully it is used as a tool so that people don't have
to try to explain it again themselves.
That is the hardest thing is how do you explain this to other
people without just like word vomiting and like trauma dumping
on them? It's it just sounds crazy.
So it's so nice to now just be like just watch the Netflix
documentary and explains it better.
No, it's, it's huge and I think I'm excited to kind of later on
ask like what you think about all the increased press and how
that's going to impact things. But I definitely wanted to ask
you about kind of how WASP has evolved since Ivy Ridge.
Like obviously the the industry is kind of adjusting and it's
kind of concentrating in different programs that it did
before. There's like more wilderness
programs that are now shutting down still a lot of therapeutic
boarding schools, they're moving away from behavior modification,
but it's still a lot of the same people on the same program
models and no regulation and reform.
And so I'm sure as you were like going through and doing the
research, you were coming across like how things had changed
since Ivy Ridge or how people that were originally involved in
WASP are now involved in different programs today.
And so I'm curious, curious what your thoughts are when you look
at today's troubled teen industry and if you're still
seeing a lot of those patterns, if there's a new WASP that has
emerged, any kind of thoughts on that on today's industry?
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, like I said in the doc,
this industry is like whack a mole.
It's like one, once one program gets bad press and gets shut
down, a new one just opens up again.
And so always hesitate to call out specific names of programs
because they'll just change their name or even just to say,
is this WASP? Because now everyone is trying
and say, oh, we're not lost. But even like we're not lost, we
lost programs. We're like, we left lost.
Yes. And it's just like, OK, cool.
So once whatever name gets enough bad press, everyone's
distances themselves from it. So for me, instead of calling
out specific names of programs, it's more important to point out
the methodology of how these places work.
So no matter what name it's currently going by, you know
what red flags to look out for. So yeah, there's a a few things
with that is one just any program.
That restricts contact between the family is that's just
shouldn't happen. That's a big red flag.
Kids should be able to access a landline at the very least to
call Child Protective Services that have a line to CPS if
anything's going on to contact the police.
We did not have that ability. Like there was no one we could
call to be like help, I'm being abused saved me.
Like please come to the welfare tech.
He just couldn't do that. So kids need to have access to a
phone to contact their family. Also the just long term
residential treatment in general general is rarely necessary or
recommended and if it is, it's in extreme circumstances.
So if a program is just blanket recommending admission to
students without even an evaluation in person or all
sorts of stuff, that's a big red flag.
Like Ivy Ridge took me and without even seeing me in person
and is off the bat trying to get people to sign year long
contracts. That's a big red flag.
And you know, this industry exists because they are filling
a market that is needed. There are families in crisis
that are like, what do we do? We we need something there.
And there are good options out there.
But there's not going to be one easy answer.
There's not going to be this like one stop shop, one size of
a salt. It's going to be different for
each kid and each situation. And usually the best treatment
is stuff that takes place within their community, that keeps them
in their community, in their home and learn how to function
within their existing environment.
As far as current programs go, because yes, like WASP doesn't
exist anymore, but the WASP methodology very much does
exist. I mean, I do think WASP really
was kind of like the worst 100% with WASP it was Maya actually
said it really well. She was like the abuse is the
treatment. It literally that was it.
Whereas other programs it's like, oh, there's treatment and
abuse happens. With WASP it was literally like,
no, that also abusing you as the treatment.
That's what it is. So yes, there are current
programs like, you know, I I called out Eagle Ranch Academy
in the documentary and they quickly put up on their website.
We're not washed just because we were in the same building as
them was like, yeah, I know we we didn't say you were a WASP.
We said WASP doesn't exist anymore.
But look what they are doing. That is those red flags that I
had called out. Again, it's to AT the same
methodology of these WASP programs of long term
residential treatment for a wide variety of behavioral issues and
teenagers and they restrict communication.
And also we happened to stumble upon which is insane.
I still can't believe this happened, that we stumbled upon
a seminar that they were running out of the hotel I was staying
at in Saint George. That's crazy.
That was insane. I remember turning to all, I was
like, no ones gonna believe this.
This is crazy. What a crazy coincident.
The karma, it's come back around because there was always this
question, like after all these years later, I was like, I don't
think they're doing it the way WASP isn't around and where
they're not doing the seminars. Like, maybe these programs
exist, but they're not getting the same.
But to find that the seminars are going on and it's the exact
same posters and language and all the stuff that we had in our
seminars, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe that it's still
going on exactly this way. So yeah, the other thing is,
yeah, I will take an opportunity I can to call out NATZAP.
The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs
is what a lot of people refer to as the new Lops.
They will deny that for sure, but they present themselves to
be this regulatory body, which they are not.
They are a underpaid organization and they'll give
programs the seal to put on their website saying hey, we're
an official net set program. So you think, okay, cool.
They have a little badge this. Sounds official.
This is part of the thing, so it must be good.
And I think this industry, it's main business is just defrauding
parents into thinking that they are something that they're not.
And a lot of parents look at these glossy marketing materials
and it looks great. It seems awesome.
You see a Next up deal. You see all this?
If you're like, well, yeah, this sounds great.
And they think that just because it exists that there is some
regulatory body, but there isn't.
They fall under all these loopholes.
They're not technically a school, so they don't fall under
the Department of Education. They're not technically a
healthcare facility. So, you know, all the people
that are like, oh, that's a HIPAA violation.
How they left all the files there.
Well, no, because they weren't licensed, so they can just abuse
our private records like that. And that Maya, again, she's says
all the best things. She makes the point that there
is no FDA for behavioral health. So in her example, she's like,
you know, you can say standing on your head cures addiction,
come to my treatment facility and I'll charge $1000 a day for
it. And that can happen.
And that is what's happening is you have a lot of unqualified,
unlicensed, unregulated people being like, I'm going to do this
crazy therapy, pay me all this money and do it.
And there's no one vetting that stuff to see, is this actually
evidence based? Does this help or does this
hurt? And so it's really caused a big
growth of this industry for entrepreneurs because I hate to
even like get this information out there, but unfortunately
anyone that can set up a website can say, start sending me your
children and, and the industry. Standard is to pay all the staff
minimum wage. They have no qualifications.
You have no psychologist. It's the cheapest gig ever.
You live in the middle of nowhere with like a really cheap
economy. It's wild.
Yeah. Yeah.
You do no activities. School is in house.
You don't go anywhere. You just stay there all the
time. No one's checking.
No one's checking on these kids. It's insane to me that any place
that houses children in congregate care doesn't have any
oversight or regulation to check in.
It's it's insane. I am curious, I'm sure part of
the process leading up to the release was like a very
extensive lack checking process. And I'm sure there were people
that were like, we got to check all our bases and do link stream
literature review. And so I'm, I'm wondering
because this is a question that I have all the time and have
done somewhat of a literature review, but not all the way.
Is there any evidence that supports these long term care
facilities for adolescents and especially letting normally
target like mood disorders or normally you're treating being a
teen? But did you guys come across
anything? We were like, well, maybe.
I mean, yeah. Not really a thing.
Yeah, I haven't. It doesn't exist.
And I feel like I talked to all the best experts in this
industry and I was even actually after the documentary ended, I
started, OK, so the psychiatrist that I interviewed in the
documentary, Doctor Roger Call, he was the one that notified the
authorities about Casa by the Sea once one of his patients was
sent there. And he's the one that's called
it like a mind fuck and everything.
I started seeing him. And so he's my therapist now
after the doc, because I was like, you're the first therapist
that I know that actually understands this thing.
And I usually spend like the first eight sessions just trying
to explain. You're like, OK, we're going to
watch this talk. You can help.
Me together you can get the director's cut.
I'll give you the like commentary.
So I was talking to him about it.
I was like, is long term residential treatment for like
you're necessary like anything? And he's like, well, you know,
someone has like severe anorexia and they need to have medical
care. But then again, that's
hospitalization with a medical plan.
But for behavior, like it's just, it's insane to me that
this happened and happened to so many children for decades.
Because you think about like as an adult, in order to get
forcibly institutionalized against your will.
Yeah, that has to be like, go through a court, through a
judge. It's like a 72 hour hold.
It's like crazy to be long term institutionalizing.
It's your will. It's insane that it's happening
to children with no due process at all.
I'm really I so I'm going into my senior year of college and
I'm a psychology student. I want to go to grad school and
I like very interested in like adolescent internalizing
disorder space, like mostly depression.
But there's been no outcome studies on these programs.
And they have all the records of all the people that went there
and they have their quote, UN quote outcome surveys from when
these people were patients. And would it be really
challenging for like privacy laws to get data on that?
Yes. But there literally has been no
research on long term 1020 years later, how are these kids
actually doing? And so that's like one area I'm
still poking around and being like, is anyone doing research
is even remotely related to this?
Because it needs to be done. Well, yeah.
And whatever research has been done, the stuff that we did find
is when they're interviewing kids right before they leave or
immediately after they left the program, when they're
brainwashed and they're afraid to say anything.
And that's what's used for the marketing materials.
If you want a true, like analysis of whether it's
effective or not, check in on them five, 1020 years later.
So what little data we have is not great.
And I mentioned in the documentary we started keeping a
list of how many kids that were added every rage have died,
either committed suicide or overdosed since then.
And at the time of the documentary is at 40.
I think now it's at like, 70 or 80 because of, you know, we're
getting more and more information as people been
coming out of the woodwork. That's a very high rate.
I mean, I'm curious, for people who were not in a program, how
many people do you know from your high school that have
killed themselves? Is it that much?
Yeah. No.
It's so I would say that that small evidence that we do have,
which I'd love to get more data to extrapolate and find out some
more concrete numbers, but a very, very high suicide rate.
I don't know anyone really. There was a time for a bit after
the program where people would still kind of say, oh, I needed
it or it was good, you know, they're still programmized a
bit. But then we all go through the
waking up process eventually. So I don't think anyone still
really holds that opinion at this point.
Continuing on the like, after the documentary process, after
it aired, I'm sure you had so many conversations with people
who had also been in programs or in more recently been sent to
treatment and I'm really curious what that process was like.
Did you have any more interesting information after
the fact about either Ivy Ridge or these other programs within
the industry? I talk to me about what it's
like after you drop this major bombshell that's like this
entire program and industry is super corrupt.
What is the aftermath of that look like?
Yeah. Well, first of all, everyone.
Tries to distance themselves from Moss or from this.
Yeah, like we're not that or whatever.
But let's see. I don't know how much I can say
because I need to keep some stuff still ongoing.
Of course, I will say that a lot of these players, especially the
Wasp players that are exposing there are still currently doing
stuff right now. And what was interesting also is
because once everyone started disaffiliating from Wasp, these
kids in these newer programs didn't realize it was WASP until
the documentary came out. So a doc released and I got
messages from all over the world of people telling me about other
programs. I mean, so many people have come
out of the woodwork telling different stories.
My friend Allison, who is my whole buddy in the documentary,
she was wondering the palms up, palms down, palms together, she
hit up by these two kids on TikTok who messaged her and they
said, Oh my gosh, we just watched the program and we saw
Narvin. We were just in his program.
What we were like, what is this guy?
They're these kids are 18 and 19 years old.
They've literally just gotten out of a program a year before
that Narvin is currently running and she's like, heaven.
You got to talk to these kids. This is this is insane.
And then more and more Narvin kids started reaching out that
they didn't realize it was WASP because it wasn't considered
WASP anymore. It's these new names of programs
that Narvin is running, and hearing the most horrific abuse
and negligence and fraud that he's committing going on right
now is insane. Yeah, no, it's.
It. Literally is never ending.
And when you see like when I think about like own program,
it's like very, of course, it's always like the same staff and
they've been there forever and they're going to be there
forever. But then you also look at like,
are they trained before where they took a couple years to go
and set up a program? And it's also connected.
And you think about how many kids they impacted in Utah or
North Carolina or like whatever these other states are where
they spent time with these other programs.
And it's just so heartbreaking to think about how widespread it
is. It's really challenging to like
mentally think about how stream it is.
But I do have one like really micro question which one of my
friends reached out after the documentary with the high school
diplomas and she was like, how do I know if my high school
diploma is real? Because she went to a program
after a therapeutic boarding school that she graduated from.
So I was wondering for people listening that also have that
problem, how did you guys figure out if they were like actual
high school diplomas and check the the due process there?
Oh, good question. What is the right way?
I mean, I had known about it because it became a headline and
it became an issue. And New York offered a refund to
some families, so we knew that was an issue.
But yeah, since the documentary came out within, like, the WASP
survivor groups on Facebook and stuff, I saw other people be
like, wait, I was at this WASP program.
Is my, is my diploma fake? And I know I was like, oh, gosh.
I mean, it's so sad because a bunch of people are realizing
that also now their high school diplomas are also fake.
And it's kind of a mixed bag gag because there were some schools
that did actually work in conjunction with a real school
accreditation, but then a lot that didn't.
With WASP in particular, they set up which people set up his
own kind of school, Browning Academy.
And then they they were accredited through like I can't
remember off the top of my head. It's like Northwest Association
of School accredited colleges and Schools, which technically
is real, but only accredited. It's not New York, like Illinois
or somewhere. I can't remember exactly.
And then now with like the current stuff that's going on
with Narvin or other, I have to be careful cuz he's currently
suing me for defamation. So I'm not sure how much I'm
gonna say about him, which is hilarious anyway.
But yeah, it's how to check on it.
I should find out. Let me find out and get back to
you because I think it's like the Secretary of State for your
state. I don't know actually.
Let me find out how to how to check if yours is or not.
Maybe the Department of Education was like my my guess,
but it's. Literally.
This is like these programs do is they give you no information
and then you're trying to like pick up the pieces of your
experience there and you're like, there's no government body
to help me. I know, I know, it's crazy and
it just sucks for all the people that I know.
I think I'll some of my friends they're like cuz my friend
Alison and Alexa, they both have a master's now they're like well
I have a master's but I don't have a real high school diploma.
They're like hopefully my employer doesn't see this and
lose my job cuz I. Literally have a.
Real high school education, Yeah.
It's insane, yeah. The last thing that I wanted to
ask you was about parents and teens who are currently in this
situation. And it's alarming.
Like even if I just mentioned therapeutic boarding school
alongside, it was a terrible experience.
Never seen your child there. People are still like, what
therapeutic boarding school did you go to?
Do you have any recommendations? And I'm sure you probably got
some of those messages as well. Like we heard your program was
so bad, but like for today, what option can I send my kid to?
And so there's still so, so, so much misinformation out there.
And guys are still being told like, this is a good option,
this is a good next step. So people that are currently
navigating this landscape, do you have any advice?
And even for teens that have either just sometimes people can
listen to like podcast in the program if they're still kind of
navigating that landscape or they've just graduated.
What's your advice there? Yeah, no, that, I mean, that is
the biggest question people always ask is like, well, if not
this, then what? And I wish there was an easy
answer for that. And there really isn't.
It really depends. And it's different from state to
state, from community to community, and from child to
child and family to family, depending on what that kid
needs. There's a whole different, you
know, type of thing you can do. So it's hard to, I can't really
give just one answer. I would just again say beware of
the red flags that I looked out for or try to avoid long term
residential treatment and try to avoid negative things like
negative feedback. These programs are all like
disciplinary and behaviorist programs in general.
Behavior modification is this idea of like can modify behavior
by being really strict and being really mean.
And actually negative feedback does not work as compared to
positive feedback. So do things that would be a
positive experience for their child, positive outings and
experiences. Find things they can do within
their community. But then it's also tough because
at the same time, I wanted to be out of my house.
I had an abusive stepmother and I did not feel safe at home.
I did not want to be at home. So where can you go when your
home is in a safe place? And I'm sad that there really
aren't too many good options for that if you just have bad
parents. And one of my like longer term
projects I've been trying to, you know, get together for a
long time is figuring out some sort of resource toolkit for
survivors and for people looking for this of alternate options.
It's just so hard because it varies so drastically from
person to person and depending on where they are of what you
can do. So I don't have like an easy
answer for that, but I would say anything you're going to do,
talk it through with your child. Let them have a say in it.
You know, kids don't act out for no reason and let them be
involved in their own treatment. Otherwise it's not going to
work. Yeah, no, I 100% agree.
If people want to follow along with you or keep an eye out for
any future projects, where can they do that?
I. Guess my Instagram is my like
public facing thing. I I've been private on all my
social media up until the doc came out.
I was like, I guess I should make my Instagram public because
but I was getting so many requests I couldn't keep up with
it and I was like, all right, I guess I need some place for
people to contact me but so I have that I'm sorry if I'm not
good at responding. I've literally received those.
Like, I called some messages. It's so much.
But I also do have my website, kathrynkubler.com, so you can
send a message through there. But yeah, usually Instagram's
the best way. I I used to post a lot and now
that I have too many people following me, I'm too scared
about what? I can't just post pictures of my
dog and food anymore. Yeah, I love it.
Oh my gosh. Well, that's perfect.
I'll put both of those in the show notes and thank you so
much.