1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,960 Welcome to Sheeper Assisted. I'm your host Sadie Sutton, a 19 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,440 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,000 University of Pennsylvania. Sheeper Assisted is the teen 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,880 mental health podcast made for teenagers by a teen. 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,120 In each episode I'll bring you authentic, accessible and 6 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,440 relatable conversations about every aspect of mental Wellness 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,000 you can expect. Evidence based teen approved 8 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,040 resources, coping skills including lots of DBT insights 9 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:28,680 and education, and each piece of content you consume. 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,439 She Persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and 11 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,160 understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take 12 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:37,440 ownership of your journey and build your life worth living. 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,720 So let's dive in. This week on She Persisted. 14 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,160 Its main business is just defrauding parents into thinking 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:46,760 that they are something that they're not. 16 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,160 And a lot of parents look at these glossy marketing materials 17 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:53,000 and it looks great. And they think that just because 18 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,280 it exists that there is some regulatory body, but there 19 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,640 isn't. They fall under all these 20 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,600 loopholes. And you have a lot of 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,239 unqualified, unlicensed, unregulated people being like, 22 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,200 I'm gonna do this crazy therapy, pay me all this money and do it. 23 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,520 And there's no one vetting that stuff to see, is this actually 24 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,360 evidence based? Does this help or does this 25 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,520 hurt? Hello, hello, and welcome back 26 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,200 to She Persisted. We are in episode 2 out of three 27 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,800 of our miniseries on the troubled teen industry. 28 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,720 This is a super exciting episode because we have Catherine Kubler 29 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,360 on the podcast. If you were at all familiar with 30 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,160 the Triple T industry, I am sure you've heard her name. 31 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,600 She is the director of the program, which is a Netflix 32 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,920 documentary about the TTI, and it was just so incredibly done, 33 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,240 was in the top charts. It was really a very healing 34 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:44,880 experience as a survivor to watch. 35 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,040 And so I highly recommend you watch that if you either went to 36 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,800 a program or you just want to learn more about the industry 37 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,640 because she just did such an incredible job explaining its 38 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,000 leadership and how expansive it is. 39 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,120 She really explained and how WASP, the Worldwide Association 40 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,880 of Specialty Programs, came to exist and how it became so 41 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,800 problematic and how little evidence there is backing the 42 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,039 quote UN quote treatment that they were doing in these 43 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:11,840 programs. And so in addition to being the 44 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,000 director and a survivor of Ivy Ridge, she also a writer and 45 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,880 producer. And I have all of her 46 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,200 information in the show notes if you want to check her out. 47 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,240 But in this episode, we talked about how she decided to create 48 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,720 the program and create a documentary about her 49 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,680 experiences and the triple industry as a whole. 50 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,960 We talk about what a lot of these programs look like red 51 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:34,800 flags that people can be aware of. 52 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:37,880 If there is any evidence supporting these types of 53 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,680 interventions, spoiler alert, there is not. 54 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,520 And then we also talk about the experience as a survivor because 55 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,280 she not only speaks to her own lived experiences so much in the 56 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,600 documentary, but she also featured a lot of her peers and 57 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,200 friends who also went to Ivy Ridge. 58 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,080 And it was really, really impactful to hear them 59 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,080 articulate what it was like after leaving the program and 60 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,240 reintegrating with real life and coming to terms with what they 61 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,080 experienced. So this was a really incredible 62 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,800 interview. I'm so grateful that Catherine 63 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,360 made the time. I know you guys are going to 64 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,520 love this one. And next week you guys get to 65 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,160 hear from me about my experiences. 66 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:11,640 And then we're back to regular programming. 67 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:15,640 So I really hope you enjoy this. As always, information is in the 68 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:17,040 show notes. If you want to learn more about 69 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,040 Catherine, make sure to leave a review, subscribe for more. 70 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,520 Let me know on social media what you think. 71 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,680 And with that, let's dive in. Well, to get things started, I'm 72 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,400 so excited to have you on the podcast. 73 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,240 I was so excited when I heard on social media that there was a 74 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,400 troubled teen documentary coming to Netflix. 75 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,560 And when I watched it, it was just such a healing experience 76 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,640 to be able to see how you guys depicted the healing process and 77 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,680 everything that you showed about kind of unraveling these 78 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,440 memories and experiences you had. 79 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,840 And it was also so informative. And so I watched it with my mom. 80 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,640 And so for anyone that wasn't totally aware of like how 81 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,480 extensive the trouble teen industry is or how much is going 82 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,320 on there, you guys just did a phenomenal job. 83 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,080 So that is how I kind of became aware of you. 84 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,920 But I'm really excited to have you on and talk about everything 85 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,400 that has come of the documentary and next steps and all the 86 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:13,920 thanks. So thank you for being with me 87 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,480 here today. Yeah, of course. 88 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,200 Thank you for having me. I always appreciate the 89 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,720 opportunity to discuss it more of. 90 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,600 Course well to get things started, I'd kind of love to 91 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,440 hear your background and why you decided to actually make the 92 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,480 documentary I think this is something that a lot of 93 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,520 survivors struggle with is speaking out and sharing their 94 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,080 story and also how much to share and you did like the most 95 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,400 effective storytelling ever with a very top charting Netflix 96 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,840 documentary. So I'm really curious what that 97 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:47,160 process was like. Obviously they've since closed, 98 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,600 but a lot of these people just circulate around different 99 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,520 programs. And you talked about like the 100 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,680 larger overarching structure that's still really involved in 101 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,200 today's programs. So it was that process like how 102 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,840 did you decide to start the documentary and do that on such 103 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:01,840 a such a large scale? Cause for a lot of people, 104 00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:03,160 there's still a lot of fear there. 105 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,840 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I was in the 106 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:10,320 program myself, so I had this first hand experience and I, I 107 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,400 had no idea that these places existed until I was sent to one. 108 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,920 I was inside one. I didn't even know prior to 109 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,920 being sent until I was actually there. 110 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,120 And while I was there I was like, well this is insane. 111 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,000 Like, I didn't know places like this could exist. 112 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:30,600 And I was, you can see in the documentary from my home video 113 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,320 archive, I was filming everything from a very young 114 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,080 age. I was obsessed with home videos 115 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:37,880 and always filmmaking all the time. 116 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,920 So when I was in the program, I was like, well, this is insane. 117 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:42,560 I need to make a documentary about this. 118 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,440 Like, this is crazy. So while I was there, I was 119 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,000 like, as soon as I get out, I'm going to expose these places. 120 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,560 Yeah. So I got out of the program and 121 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,080 immediately started looking for any resources to kind of help 122 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,800 explain what had happened to me. And there really wasn't anything 123 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,880 out there at the time. And the Internet, like social 124 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,080 media was just becoming a thing. Like Myspace didn't exist before 125 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,920 I got in the program. And when I got out, that's how 126 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,840 we all started finding each other afterwards because we 127 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:12,560 weren't allowed to share contact information. 128 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,440 We're in the program. And then I found my Sullivitz's 129 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,360 book, Help at Any Cost. How the trouble teen industry 130 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,360 calms parents and hurts kids. And it blew my mind. 131 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,040 It was amazing. She was the first person to 132 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,680 really break open the story and show the connections with WASP 133 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,160 and the whole troubled teen industry as a whole. 134 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,680 And it was great. So I actually first interviewed 135 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,320 Maya and you can see some of my early interviews with her back 136 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,800 in 2010, and she kind of like set me down the path of 137 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,920 exploring and investigating this. 138 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,120 So I'm really grateful for the groundwork she laid into this. 139 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,920 And so like I said, I got out of the program in in 2005. 140 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,320 Then 2006 to 2010, I was in film school out in LA. 141 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,120 And as soon as I graduated, I was like, all right, time to 142 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,920 start making a documentary. And I was pretty naive about how 143 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,400 difficult it would be to make a documentary 'cause I was like, 144 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,640 oh, it's no problem. Like I'll just do it and it'll 145 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,840 be easy. But there are lots of challenges 146 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:11,600 with trying to make a documentary on this kind of 147 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,120 thing. And one of the big obstacles is 148 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,640 trying to get any visual media of it because they don't let you 149 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,360 film inside these places. They're very secretive. 150 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,080 And so I was doing things like going undercover. 151 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,120 I got some hidden cameras and snuck into like a WASP seminar 152 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,600 for parents back in 2010. And I was going all around the 153 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,360 country finding people to talk to me or trying to find experts. 154 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,840 And there weren't that many experts besides, like Maya and 155 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,080 Phil and, you know, a couple others at the time. 156 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,600 So Fast forward up to 2020 after after like a decade of kind of 157 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,000 exploring this industry because sorry, talking over myself 158 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,080 again, but. No, I love it. 159 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,320 When like, because when I got out, I thought that it was just 160 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,120 Ivy Ridge or WASP, you know, to the extent I knew about it. 161 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,160 But very quickly I found out that my experience was just the 162 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,640 tip of the iceberg, that this was like a whole huge industry 163 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,000 that had been going on for decades. 164 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,480 And there was so much more. And I found that out because 165 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,760 when I was trying to find anything on, I would find 166 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,280 forums, but they seem to be talking about other programs, 167 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,560 which I would later find would be about Straight Incorporated 168 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,880 or CD or these other programs. So then I was like, well this is 169 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,000 huge. Let me do a documentary on this 170 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,040 whole industry. Fast forward to 2020, after a 171 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,920 decade of looking into this whole industry and piercing 172 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,080 things together, come to find that it was my very own program 173 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,960 that was abandoned and left all the evidence behind. 174 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,000 So now all of a sudden, you know, always having this 175 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,840 obstacle of like, well, what am I going to show? 176 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,640 All of a sudden we had access to the whole building and this 177 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,480 incredible set piece to just walk through and see everything 178 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,680 and we had all the evidence. It was insane finding this like 179 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:58,320 Time Capsule and all these documents that were, you know, 180 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,320 therapy notes, our birth certificate, Social Security 181 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,800 cards, medical records, like all the documentation of everything 182 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,280 that went down there that we'd never thought anyone would 183 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,040 believe us about, and then even security footage. 184 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,240 So anyway, that's a long answer, but there you go. 185 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,120 No, it's, it's really incredible and even just subjectively 186 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,400 trying to piece together the like survivors experience, it's 187 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,160 really hard. And I, I'd love to get your 188 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,960 thoughts on this as well, because I think what I found is 189 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,080 that I left, I was still under 18. 190 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,360 And I think there was a lot of like compartmentalization that 191 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,320 happened and some fear until I turned 18. 192 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,160 And then it was like, OK, I can't be sent back. 193 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,960 And there was really more mental willingness to explore what had 194 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,600 happened and what my feelings were. 195 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,800 But after I left, there was still that like, OK, they could 196 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,440 come. Not that they would hopefully, 197 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,200 but like it was still technically a possibility that I 198 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,280 could go back to a program at any day. 199 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,440 And so that I think is a very daunting experience for people 200 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,520 in those first couple of days. And then as time goes on, you 201 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,600 the human memory is horrible. We're so bad at remembering 202 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,800 things, but it's also this element of everything has been 203 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,440 normalized. And you guys spoke to this in 204 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,240 the documentary that depending on how girls and of course Ivy 205 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,040 Ridge was Co Ed and had different sides, but how girls 206 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,360 comply with the program really impacts their emotions towards 207 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:24,960 things. And I think also the memories as 208 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,400 well, because I was one of like the put your head down. 209 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,160 I was a people pleaser. Like it was just, that was kind 210 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,000 of how I got through for 14 months. 211 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,360 And so when I left, everything had been normalized for a year. 212 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,000 And like we don't remember what we ate for lunch three years 213 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,880 ago. And so it was kind of that same 214 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,560 idea where like everything in my mind has been normalized and 215 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:48,960 catalogued away and not been like, oh, that was weird or not 216 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,880 right or maybe not OK. And so trying to unpack these 217 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,200 things and look back and be like, OK, was, was this right? 218 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,000 Was this not right? How do I actually feel about 219 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,840 this without my ability to talk to my family or go home being in 220 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,600 question? That was a really scary and 221 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,120 weird piece to navigate. And so I'm curious for you guys. 222 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,000 You did such a good job articulating not only your 223 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,400 experience is there, but then your experience is after you 224 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,760 left. And I'm wondering how you went 225 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,720 through that process knowing that you probably did normalize 226 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,600 a lot of things where you, like. Don't think about that. 227 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,600 I don't want to get in trouble. That can't happen. 228 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,840 And then the time piece is also huge. 229 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,320 Yeah. Yeah, so few things there. 230 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,160 Well, first, back to what you said about, you know, it just 231 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,800 being hard to even speak about for a while because there is so 232 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,200 much shame and like, humiliation about it. 233 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:38,640 No one really wants to talk about it. 234 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,480 And I think that's how most kids are when they get out of the 235 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,280 program. They just want to forget about 236 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,520 it and not talk about it again. For me, however, I just refuse 237 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,480 to normalize what happened. I was just like, no, you're not 238 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:52,960 going to convince me that this is OK. 239 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,360 This is just insane. And I don't know what it was 240 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:58,520 that I was just like, I refuse to accept this as normal. 241 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,520 But most other people, like my friends Alexa and Molly, I had, 242 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:06,520 I had first reached out to them back in 2010 when I was trying 243 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,840 to make this, asking them like, hey, could I interview for the 244 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,360 documentary? And they're both like, oh, sure, 245 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:11,880 maybe. And then kind of blew me off. 246 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:12,880 They didn't really want to do it. 247 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,640 A lot of people didn't really want to talk about it all wanted 248 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,840 to kind of forget about that chapter of our lives and just 249 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,960 move on because it's too insane of a thing. 250 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,600 You just kind of have to like pretend it never happened. 251 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,920 But, you know, the body keeps the score, and you can't really 252 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,200 ever forget that. But yeah. 253 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,360 And it's also because the program, like, tells you and 254 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,360 your parents are telling you that what happened to you is 255 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,960 normal and that you deserved it. And I was like, I don't think 256 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,160 so. And it really wasn't until I 257 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,880 read Maya's book that it was the first time that an adult and an 258 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,480 authority figure said, hey, what happened to you was not right, 259 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,080 and here's why and just explain it. 260 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,320 And I was like, yes, like, I knew it was wrong, but I didn't 261 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,160 have the vocabulary or education to understand why it was 262 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:57,920 abusive. But I was like, this is just not 263 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,560 right. And so now, you know, Maya kind 264 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:05,080 of laid out that framework to literally reframe the experience 265 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,120 that we had because you're being abused, you're being told you 266 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,080 deserve this and this is OK. And you have to go back and then 267 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,800 reframe that whole experience and see it through different 268 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,240 lens. And once you see it that way, 269 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,160 that really helps with the healing process of understanding 270 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,520 it and then to speak. To sorry I had the most long 271 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,600 winded question. No, no, it's good. 272 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,360 It's all important stuff to talk about. 273 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,600 Yeah. As far as then getting my 274 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,880 friends to eventually talk about it, what, when word started 275 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,120 getting out that the building was abandoned and all our files 276 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,480 are in there and people started making trips back and getting 277 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,080 it, we were all like, all right, let's talk about. 278 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,640 So we have a group chat with all my friends that are in the 279 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,680 documentary, all my friends from Ivy Ridge. 280 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,160 And as things are coming together, it's like, all right, 281 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,600 I'm going to pick up the doc again. 282 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,240 Let's all talk about how we're going to do this or like what 283 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,640 it's going to be. And so we would have Zoom 284 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,840 meetings and at first, I think it was like every Sunday at the 285 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,960 start of it, we're doing it. And they'd be like hours long 286 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,640 because we'd all just, we were all like collectively having 287 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,720 mental breakdowns with all of this stuff thrown back into our 288 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,080 lives again, finding all our files and going through it. 289 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,160 And you've remembered that ended up being like the forgotten. 290 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,560 Yeah. It was this like group therapy 291 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,560 session where we're all, and because we remembered each other 292 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,760 from the program, so we were able to kind of fill in 293 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,520 different parts of people's memories, be like, do you 294 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,760 remember this or that? And This is why I love 295 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,800 documentaries or just documentation for victims of 296 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,440 psychological abuse. When you are gaslit so much, it 297 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:42,320 is so nice to have a record or a document that proves you're not 298 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,440 crazy. And all of a sudden we had so 299 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,040 much of that and it was incredible. 300 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:53,280 So through these hours long Zoom sessions of all of us, just kind 301 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,080 of like, you know, retelling all our memories and validating and 302 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,760 corroborating and filling in different sides of the story and 303 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,840 then digging through the files and finding things to 304 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,960 corroborate it. It really, I mean, it was 305 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,240 amazing. It was so incredible to have 306 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,520 that treasure trove of information to back everything 307 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,160 up that we knew had happened. And it's it's also crazy how 308 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,640 many things we just completely forget. 309 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,680 And then you're like, wow, I blocked that out completely. 310 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,720 So yeah, yeah, there's a whole. I had the yeah, the same 311 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,000 experience and I think like having that adult figure that 312 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,600 tells you, OK, it's OK, how you feel what you experienced wasn't 313 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,920 normal. And let's unpack that for me. 314 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,600 That was I had a therapist after the troubled teen industry, 315 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,200 which I got really lucky to be sandwiched from both sides. 316 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,120 I went from a very evidence based residential program at 317 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,640 McLean, which is Harvard affiliated and they do DBT, 318 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,360 which like we know is so much evidence and I talked to my 319 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,520 parents multiple times a day. They flew every week. 320 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,840 So like world of a difference and then fourteen months at a 321 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,120 therapeutic boarding school and then afterwards I did outpatient 322 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,280 with a really incredible DBT therapist again. 323 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,880 And so she was one of the people that I went to. 324 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,880 She I don't even know what version of me she like received 325 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,640 after I graduated the troll teen industry and was had I read my 326 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,400 graduation speech the other day and I was like, what am I 327 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,640 apologizing for? You're like, what is happening? 328 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,080 But anyways, she was the one that was like, yeah, that's not 329 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,920 right and that's not normal. And these are the words to 330 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,080 describe these things. Like even the way you're 331 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,120 speaking about it now, clearly that wasn't right. 332 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,440 And so to have that validation from an adult figure, which is 333 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,680 so much more challenging in the troubled teen industry for 334 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,080 survivors, because a lot of the times parents are either 335 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,440 believing the program or they were also like, there's also 336 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,400 that kind of moral battle as well. 337 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,280 And so finding someone that play states your emotions, but not in 338 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,320 like a pitying way, But being like that really wasn't right. 339 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,160 And if we look at all the evidence and all the 340 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,000 information, that's not supposed to happen to you. 341 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,880 And I think that is so incredibly important in the 342 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,640 healing process. And thanks to you, there's now a 343 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,400 really incredible documentary that does that in addition to 344 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,440 the books and people's podcasts are out there. 345 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,839 But I completely agree that that's just such an important 346 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:10,240 part of that healing for covering part of the part of the 347 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,359 process of waking up. Yeah, absolutely. 348 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,599 It was funny. There's so many times when we 349 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,599 were filming, especially like early on when I was trying to 350 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:20,760 get all my friends just comfortable in front of the 351 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,000 camera. We all we all met up together in 352 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,240 Bend, OR and it was the first time we were all really together 353 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,800 since the program and I just brought my camera guy. 354 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,480 Pi was like, look, I don't know if we're going to film anything, 355 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,280 but like you should be there because we're all just getting 356 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:34,080 it. We should just film it. 357 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:36,880 And so we're all just in there and we're telling stories and 358 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,800 remembering stuff. And then at different points we 359 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:41,320 turn to Pete and we're like, is this bad? 360 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,040 Does this sound bad? And he's like, yeah, no, like 361 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,720 this, this is crazy. Or we'd be talking and then he'd 362 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,440 stop you like, whoa, hold up a second. 363 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,680 He's like, this is the first time hearing about a riot. 364 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,160 And we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, the riot. 365 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,440 Or just they're just different things that were just so 366 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,800 normalized to us or whatever that so often we go to people 367 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,480 like, is this bad or are we being dramatic? 368 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,800 Like, I don't know. Because it's so it's, it's 369 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,960 really good to get that validation from other people 370 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,600 because again, this is normal for us since you have to get a 371 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,440 level set and just be like, OK, what what is actually OK. 372 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,360 And so I hope that this documentary, though, I'm sure is 373 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:18,120 re traumatizing for a lot of survivors to see it at the very 374 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,000 least provides some validation about it. 375 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,840 And also hopefully it is used as a tool so that people don't have 376 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,320 to try to explain it again themselves. 377 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,360 That is the hardest thing is how do you explain this to other 378 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,480 people without just like word vomiting and like trauma dumping 379 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,320 on them? It's it just sounds crazy. 380 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,880 So it's so nice to now just be like just watch the Netflix 381 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,400 documentary and explains it better. 382 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,000 No, it's, it's huge and I think I'm excited to kind of later on 383 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,960 ask like what you think about all the increased press and how 384 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,800 that's going to impact things. But I definitely wanted to ask 385 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,200 you about kind of how WASP has evolved since Ivy Ridge. 386 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,800 Like obviously the the industry is kind of adjusting and it's 387 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,440 kind of concentrating in different programs that it did 388 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,000 before. There's like more wilderness 389 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,240 programs that are now shutting down still a lot of therapeutic 390 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,120 boarding schools, they're moving away from behavior modification, 391 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,800 but it's still a lot of the same people on the same program 392 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,640 models and no regulation and reform. 393 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,440 And so I'm sure as you were like going through and doing the 394 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,560 research, you were coming across like how things had changed 395 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,520 since Ivy Ridge or how people that were originally involved in 396 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,160 WASP are now involved in different programs today. 397 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,920 And so I'm curious, curious what your thoughts are when you look 398 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,760 at today's troubled teen industry and if you're still 399 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,440 seeing a lot of those patterns, if there's a new WASP that has 400 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,480 emerged, any kind of thoughts on that on today's industry? 401 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,800 Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, like I said in the doc, 402 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,320 this industry is like whack a mole. 403 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,400 It's like one, once one program gets bad press and gets shut 404 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,080 down, a new one just opens up again. 405 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,560 And so always hesitate to call out specific names of programs 406 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,160 because they'll just change their name or even just to say, 407 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,360 is this WASP? Because now everyone is trying 408 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,960 and say, oh, we're not lost. But even like we're not lost, we 409 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,840 lost programs. We're like, we left lost. 410 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,960 Yes. And it's just like, OK, cool. 411 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,840 So once whatever name gets enough bad press, everyone's 412 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,760 distances themselves from it. So for me, instead of calling 413 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,280 out specific names of programs, it's more important to point out 414 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,360 the methodology of how these places work. 415 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:21,560 So no matter what name it's currently going by, you know 416 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,120 what red flags to look out for. So yeah, there's a a few things 417 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:28,360 with that is one just any program. 418 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,240 That restricts contact between the family is that's just 419 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,120 shouldn't happen. That's a big red flag. 420 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,800 Kids should be able to access a landline at the very least to 421 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,520 call Child Protective Services that have a line to CPS if 422 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,600 anything's going on to contact the police. 423 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,360 We did not have that ability. Like there was no one we could 424 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,000 call to be like help, I'm being abused saved me. 425 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,320 Like please come to the welfare tech. 426 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,880 He just couldn't do that. So kids need to have access to a 427 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,720 phone to contact their family. Also the just long term 428 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,000 residential treatment in general general is rarely necessary or 429 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,240 recommended and if it is, it's in extreme circumstances. 430 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,600 So if a program is just blanket recommending admission to 431 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,280 students without even an evaluation in person or all 432 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,880 sorts of stuff, that's a big red flag. 433 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,240 Like Ivy Ridge took me and without even seeing me in person 434 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,600 and is off the bat trying to get people to sign year long 435 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,640 contracts. That's a big red flag. 436 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,800 And you know, this industry exists because they are filling 437 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,080 a market that is needed. There are families in crisis 438 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,280 that are like, what do we do? We we need something there. 439 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,880 And there are good options out there. 440 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,440 But there's not going to be one easy answer. 441 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,480 There's not going to be this like one stop shop, one size of 442 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,720 a salt. It's going to be different for 443 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,000 each kid and each situation. And usually the best treatment 444 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,040 is stuff that takes place within their community, that keeps them 445 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,480 in their community, in their home and learn how to function 446 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:52,880 within their existing environment. 447 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:57,440 As far as current programs go, because yes, like WASP doesn't 448 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,200 exist anymore, but the WASP methodology very much does 449 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,680 exist. I mean, I do think WASP really 450 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:11,560 was kind of like the worst 100% with WASP it was Maya actually 451 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,280 said it really well. She was like the abuse is the 452 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,680 treatment. It literally that was it. 453 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,480 Whereas other programs it's like, oh, there's treatment and 454 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,840 abuse happens. With WASP it was literally like, 455 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,920 no, that also abusing you as the treatment. 456 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,480 That's what it is. So yes, there are current 457 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,920 programs like, you know, I I called out Eagle Ranch Academy 458 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,880 in the documentary and they quickly put up on their website. 459 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,240 We're not washed just because we were in the same building as 460 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,960 them was like, yeah, I know we we didn't say you were a WASP. 461 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,680 We said WASP doesn't exist anymore. 462 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:45,480 But look what they are doing. That is those red flags that I 463 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,120 had called out. Again, it's to AT the same 464 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:51,560 methodology of these WASP programs of long term 465 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,040 residential treatment for a wide variety of behavioral issues and 466 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,040 teenagers and they restrict communication. 467 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,160 And also we happened to stumble upon which is insane. 468 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,960 I still can't believe this happened, that we stumbled upon 469 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,960 a seminar that they were running out of the hotel I was staying 470 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:07,720 at in Saint George. That's crazy. 471 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,040 That was insane. I remember turning to all, I was 472 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,240 like, no ones gonna believe this. 473 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,920 This is crazy. What a crazy coincident. 474 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,160 The karma, it's come back around because there was always this 475 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,240 question, like after all these years later, I was like, I don't 476 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,560 think they're doing it the way WASP isn't around and where 477 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,600 they're not doing the seminars. Like, maybe these programs 478 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:25,840 exist, but they're not getting the same. 479 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,520 But to find that the seminars are going on and it's the exact 480 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,600 same posters and language and all the stuff that we had in our 481 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,280 seminars, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe that it's still 482 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,640 going on exactly this way. So yeah, the other thing is, 483 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,760 yeah, I will take an opportunity I can to call out NATZAP. 484 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,640 The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs 485 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,120 is what a lot of people refer to as the new Lops. 486 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:52,880 They will deny that for sure, but they present themselves to 487 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,920 be this regulatory body, which they are not. 488 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,640 They are a underpaid organization and they'll give 489 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,200 programs the seal to put on their website saying hey, we're 490 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,160 an official net set program. So you think, okay, cool. 491 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,040 They have a little badge this. Sounds official. 492 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:08,960 This is part of the thing, so it must be good. 493 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,560 And I think this industry, it's main business is just defrauding 494 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,360 parents into thinking that they are something that they're not. 495 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,760 And a lot of parents look at these glossy marketing materials 496 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,480 and it looks great. It seems awesome. 497 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,240 You see a Next up deal. You see all this? 498 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:23,760 If you're like, well, yeah, this sounds great. 499 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,920 And they think that just because it exists that there is some 500 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,080 regulatory body, but there isn't. 501 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,320 They fall under all these loopholes. 502 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,440 They're not technically a school, so they don't fall under 503 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,640 the Department of Education. They're not technically a 504 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,680 healthcare facility. So, you know, all the people 505 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,200 that are like, oh, that's a HIPAA violation. 506 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:41,320 How they left all the files there. 507 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,760 Well, no, because they weren't licensed, so they can just abuse 508 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,720 our private records like that. And that Maya, again, she's says 509 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,960 all the best things. She makes the point that there 510 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,080 is no FDA for behavioral health. So in her example, she's like, 511 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,760 you know, you can say standing on your head cures addiction, 512 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,840 come to my treatment facility and I'll charge $1000 a day for 513 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,080 it. And that can happen. 514 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,760 And that is what's happening is you have a lot of unqualified, 515 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,040 unlicensed, unregulated people being like, I'm going to do this 516 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,960 crazy therapy, pay me all this money and do it. 517 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,280 And there's no one vetting that stuff to see, is this actually 518 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,160 evidence based? Does this help or does this 519 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,920 hurt? And so it's really caused a big 520 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,080 growth of this industry for entrepreneurs because I hate to 521 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,960 even like get this information out there, but unfortunately 522 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,560 anyone that can set up a website can say, start sending me your 523 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,200 children and, and the industry. Standard is to pay all the staff 524 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,560 minimum wage. They have no qualifications. 525 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,320 You have no psychologist. It's the cheapest gig ever. 526 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,920 You live in the middle of nowhere with like a really cheap 527 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,920 economy. It's wild. 528 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,000 Yeah. Yeah. 529 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:51,680 You do no activities. School is in house. 530 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,800 You don't go anywhere. You just stay there all the 531 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,960 time. No one's checking. 532 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,920 No one's checking on these kids. It's insane to me that any place 533 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,200 that houses children in congregate care doesn't have any 534 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,680 oversight or regulation to check in. 535 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,560 It's it's insane. I am curious, I'm sure part of 536 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,560 the process leading up to the release was like a very 537 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,760 extensive lack checking process. And I'm sure there were people 538 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,840 that were like, we got to check all our bases and do link stream 539 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,520 literature review. And so I'm, I'm wondering 540 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,040 because this is a question that I have all the time and have 541 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,280 done somewhat of a literature review, but not all the way. 542 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,840 Is there any evidence that supports these long term care 543 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,560 facilities for adolescents and especially letting normally 544 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,480 target like mood disorders or normally you're treating being a 545 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,760 teen? But did you guys come across 546 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,560 anything? We were like, well, maybe. 547 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,360 I mean, yeah. Not really a thing. 548 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,440 Yeah, I haven't. It doesn't exist. 549 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,840 And I feel like I talked to all the best experts in this 550 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,440 industry and I was even actually after the documentary ended, I 551 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,520 started, OK, so the psychiatrist that I interviewed in the 552 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,320 documentary, Doctor Roger Call, he was the one that notified the 553 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,040 authorities about Casa by the Sea once one of his patients was 554 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,160 sent there. And he's the one that's called 555 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,680 it like a mind fuck and everything. 556 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,600 I started seeing him. And so he's my therapist now 557 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,480 after the doc, because I was like, you're the first therapist 558 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,080 that I know that actually understands this thing. 559 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,680 And I usually spend like the first eight sessions just trying 560 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,200 to explain. You're like, OK, we're going to 561 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,400 watch this talk. You can help. 562 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,200 Me together you can get the director's cut. 563 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,880 I'll give you the like commentary. 564 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,760 So I was talking to him about it. 565 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,000 I was like, is long term residential treatment for like 566 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,040 you're necessary like anything? And he's like, well, you know, 567 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,520 someone has like severe anorexia and they need to have medical 568 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:41,320 care. But then again, that's 569 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,880 hospitalization with a medical plan. 570 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,560 But for behavior, like it's just, it's insane to me that 571 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,080 this happened and happened to so many children for decades. 572 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,960 Because you think about like as an adult, in order to get 573 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,320 forcibly institutionalized against your will. 574 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,400 Yeah, that has to be like, go through a court, through a 575 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,680 judge. It's like a 72 hour hold. 576 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,480 It's like crazy to be long term institutionalizing. 577 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,520 It's your will. It's insane that it's happening 578 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,120 to children with no due process at all. 579 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,080 I'm really I so I'm going into my senior year of college and 580 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,160 I'm a psychology student. I want to go to grad school and 581 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,840 I like very interested in like adolescent internalizing 582 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,520 disorder space, like mostly depression. 583 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,000 But there's been no outcome studies on these programs. 584 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,560 And they have all the records of all the people that went there 585 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,000 and they have their quote, UN quote outcome surveys from when 586 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,960 these people were patients. And would it be really 587 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,280 challenging for like privacy laws to get data on that? 588 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,480 Yes. But there literally has been no 589 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,160 research on long term 1020 years later, how are these kids 590 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,920 actually doing? And so that's like one area I'm 591 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,240 still poking around and being like, is anyone doing research 592 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,000 is even remotely related to this? 593 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,320 Because it needs to be done. Well, yeah. 594 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,960 And whatever research has been done, the stuff that we did find 595 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,760 is when they're interviewing kids right before they leave or 596 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,600 immediately after they left the program, when they're 597 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,840 brainwashed and they're afraid to say anything. 598 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:04,920 And that's what's used for the marketing materials. 599 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,600 If you want a true, like analysis of whether it's 600 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,800 effective or not, check in on them five, 1020 years later. 601 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,280 So what little data we have is not great. 602 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,280 And I mentioned in the documentary we started keeping a 603 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,320 list of how many kids that were added every rage have died, 604 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,240 either committed suicide or overdosed since then. 605 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,440 And at the time of the documentary is at 40. 606 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,560 I think now it's at like, 70 or 80 because of, you know, we're 607 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,280 getting more and more information as people been 608 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,600 coming out of the woodwork. That's a very high rate. 609 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,880 I mean, I'm curious, for people who were not in a program, how 610 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,000 many people do you know from your high school that have 611 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,920 killed themselves? Is it that much? 612 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:45,960 Yeah. No. 613 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,680 It's so I would say that that small evidence that we do have, 614 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,200 which I'd love to get more data to extrapolate and find out some 615 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,720 more concrete numbers, but a very, very high suicide rate. 616 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,200 I don't know anyone really. There was a time for a bit after 617 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,440 the program where people would still kind of say, oh, I needed 618 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,400 it or it was good, you know, they're still programmized a 619 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,240 bit. But then we all go through the 620 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,800 waking up process eventually. So I don't think anyone still 621 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,480 really holds that opinion at this point. 622 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,080 Continuing on the like, after the documentary process, after 623 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,560 it aired, I'm sure you had so many conversations with people 624 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,000 who had also been in programs or in more recently been sent to 625 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,240 treatment and I'm really curious what that process was like. 626 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,640 Did you have any more interesting information after 627 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,640 the fact about either Ivy Ridge or these other programs within 628 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,240 the industry? I talk to me about what it's 629 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,680 like after you drop this major bombshell that's like this 630 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,840 entire program and industry is super corrupt. 631 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,880 What is the aftermath of that look like? 632 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:46,920 Yeah. Well, first of all, everyone. 633 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,640 Tries to distance themselves from Moss or from this. 634 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,200 Yeah, like we're not that or whatever. 635 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,840 But let's see. I don't know how much I can say 636 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,720 because I need to keep some stuff still ongoing. 637 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,200 Of course, I will say that a lot of these players, especially the 638 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,360 Wasp players that are exposing there are still currently doing 639 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,520 stuff right now. And what was interesting also is 640 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,840 because once everyone started disaffiliating from Wasp, these 641 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,040 kids in these newer programs didn't realize it was WASP until 642 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,160 the documentary came out. So a doc released and I got 643 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,720 messages from all over the world of people telling me about other 644 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,480 programs. I mean, so many people have come 645 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:27,880 out of the woodwork telling different stories. 646 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,080 My friend Allison, who is my whole buddy in the documentary, 647 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,960 she was wondering the palms up, palms down, palms together, she 648 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,400 hit up by these two kids on TikTok who messaged her and they 649 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,240 said, Oh my gosh, we just watched the program and we saw 650 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,040 Narvin. We were just in his program. 651 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:45,880 What we were like, what is this guy? 652 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,240 They're these kids are 18 and 19 years old. 653 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,160 They've literally just gotten out of a program a year before 654 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,040 that Narvin is currently running and she's like, heaven. 655 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,680 You got to talk to these kids. This is this is insane. 656 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,720 And then more and more Narvin kids started reaching out that 657 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,000 they didn't realize it was WASP because it wasn't considered 658 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,520 WASP anymore. It's these new names of programs 659 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,920 that Narvin is running, and hearing the most horrific abuse 660 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,760 and negligence and fraud that he's committing going on right 661 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,280 now is insane. Yeah, no, it's. 662 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,400 It. Literally is never ending. 663 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,200 And when you see like when I think about like own program, 664 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,760 it's like very, of course, it's always like the same staff and 665 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,480 they've been there forever and they're going to be there 666 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,840 forever. But then you also look at like, 667 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,400 are they trained before where they took a couple years to go 668 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,360 and set up a program? And it's also connected. 669 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,600 And you think about how many kids they impacted in Utah or 670 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,560 North Carolina or like whatever these other states are where 671 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,120 they spent time with these other programs. 672 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,680 And it's just so heartbreaking to think about how widespread it 673 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,680 is. It's really challenging to like 674 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,280 mentally think about how stream it is. 675 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,600 But I do have one like really micro question which one of my 676 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,120 friends reached out after the documentary with the high school 677 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,360 diplomas and she was like, how do I know if my high school 678 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,640 diploma is real? Because she went to a program 679 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,040 after a therapeutic boarding school that she graduated from. 680 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,600 So I was wondering for people listening that also have that 681 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,720 problem, how did you guys figure out if they were like actual 682 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,880 high school diplomas and check the the due process there? 683 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,400 Oh, good question. What is the right way? 684 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,720 I mean, I had known about it because it became a headline and 685 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,640 it became an issue. And New York offered a refund to 686 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,680 some families, so we knew that was an issue. 687 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,200 But yeah, since the documentary came out within, like, the WASP 688 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,800 survivor groups on Facebook and stuff, I saw other people be 689 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,520 like, wait, I was at this WASP program. 690 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,000 Is my, is my diploma fake? And I know I was like, oh, gosh. 691 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,560 I mean, it's so sad because a bunch of people are realizing 692 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,320 that also now their high school diplomas are also fake. 693 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,280 And it's kind of a mixed bag gag because there were some schools 694 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,000 that did actually work in conjunction with a real school 695 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,520 accreditation, but then a lot that didn't. 696 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,720 With WASP in particular, they set up which people set up his 697 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,600 own kind of school, Browning Academy. 698 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,120 And then they they were accredited through like I can't 699 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,000 remember off the top of my head. It's like Northwest Association 700 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,480 of School accredited colleges and Schools, which technically 701 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,239 is real, but only accredited. It's not New York, like Illinois 702 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:11,760 or somewhere. I can't remember exactly. 703 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,840 And then now with like the current stuff that's going on 704 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,000 with Narvin or other, I have to be careful cuz he's currently 705 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,840 suing me for defamation. So I'm not sure how much I'm 706 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,760 gonna say about him, which is hilarious anyway. 707 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,440 But yeah, it's how to check on it. 708 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,679 I should find out. Let me find out and get back to 709 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:32,679 you because I think it's like the Secretary of State for your 710 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,480 state. I don't know actually. 711 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,840 Let me find out how to how to check if yours is or not. 712 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,360 Maybe the Department of Education was like my my guess, 713 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:42,120 but it's. Literally. 714 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,880 This is like these programs do is they give you no information 715 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,840 and then you're trying to like pick up the pieces of your 716 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,239 experience there and you're like, there's no government body 717 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,320 to help me. I know, I know, it's crazy and 718 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,120 it just sucks for all the people that I know. 719 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,840 I think I'll some of my friends they're like cuz my friend 720 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,560 Alison and Alexa, they both have a master's now they're like well 721 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,440 I have a master's but I don't have a real high school diploma. 722 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,640 They're like hopefully my employer doesn't see this and 723 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,000 lose my job cuz I. Literally have a. 724 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,120 Real high school education, Yeah. 725 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,680 It's insane, yeah. The last thing that I wanted to 726 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,560 ask you was about parents and teens who are currently in this 727 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,200 situation. And it's alarming. 728 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,600 Like even if I just mentioned therapeutic boarding school 729 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,360 alongside, it was a terrible experience. 730 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,200 Never seen your child there. People are still like, what 731 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:24,720 therapeutic boarding school did you go to? 732 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,840 Do you have any recommendations? And I'm sure you probably got 733 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,920 some of those messages as well. Like we heard your program was 734 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,800 so bad, but like for today, what option can I send my kid to? 735 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,360 And so there's still so, so, so much misinformation out there. 736 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,440 And guys are still being told like, this is a good option, 737 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,720 this is a good next step. So people that are currently 738 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:43,320 navigating this landscape, do you have any advice? 739 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,920 And even for teens that have either just sometimes people can 740 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,160 listen to like podcast in the program if they're still kind of 741 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,880 navigating that landscape or they've just graduated. 742 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,360 What's your advice there? Yeah, no, that, I mean, that is 743 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,960 the biggest question people always ask is like, well, if not 744 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:02,400 this, then what? And I wish there was an easy 745 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,640 answer for that. And there really isn't. 746 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,120 It really depends. And it's different from state to 747 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,440 state, from community to community, and from child to 748 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,560 child and family to family, depending on what that kid 749 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,720 needs. There's a whole different, you 750 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:18,120 know, type of thing you can do. So it's hard to, I can't really 751 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,000 give just one answer. I would just again say beware of 752 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,200 the red flags that I looked out for or try to avoid long term 753 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,520 residential treatment and try to avoid negative things like 754 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,240 negative feedback. These programs are all like 755 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,840 disciplinary and behaviorist programs in general. 756 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,760 Behavior modification is this idea of like can modify behavior 757 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,800 by being really strict and being really mean. 758 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,760 And actually negative feedback does not work as compared to 759 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,040 positive feedback. So do things that would be a 760 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,240 positive experience for their child, positive outings and 761 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:58,400 experiences. Find things they can do within 762 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,720 their community. But then it's also tough because 763 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:03,400 at the same time, I wanted to be out of my house. 764 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,880 I had an abusive stepmother and I did not feel safe at home. 765 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,040 I did not want to be at home. So where can you go when your 766 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,240 home is in a safe place? And I'm sad that there really 767 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,840 aren't too many good options for that if you just have bad 768 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,120 parents. And one of my like longer term 769 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,320 projects I've been trying to, you know, get together for a 770 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,760 long time is figuring out some sort of resource toolkit for 771 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,920 survivors and for people looking for this of alternate options. 772 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,360 It's just so hard because it varies so drastically from 773 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,440 person to person and depending on where they are of what you 774 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,720 can do. So I don't have like an easy 775 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,400 answer for that, but I would say anything you're going to do, 776 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,920 talk it through with your child. Let them have a say in it. 777 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,400 You know, kids don't act out for no reason and let them be 778 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,320 involved in their own treatment. Otherwise it's not going to 779 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,680 work. Yeah, no, I 100% agree. 780 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,680 If people want to follow along with you or keep an eye out for 781 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,920 any future projects, where can they do that? 782 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,200 I. Guess my Instagram is my like 783 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:09,000 public facing thing. I I've been private on all my 784 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,080 social media up until the doc came out. 785 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,240 I was like, I guess I should make my Instagram public because 786 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,480 but I was getting so many requests I couldn't keep up with 787 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,400 it and I was like, all right, I guess I need some place for 788 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,960 people to contact me but so I have that I'm sorry if I'm not 789 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,600 good at responding. I've literally received those. 790 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,960 Like, I called some messages. It's so much. 791 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,880 But I also do have my website, kathrynkubler.com, so you can 792 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,000 send a message through there. But yeah, usually Instagram's 793 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,360 the best way. I I used to post a lot and now 794 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,520 that I have too many people following me, I'm too scared 795 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,120 about what? I can't just post pictures of my 796 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,960 dog and food anymore. Yeah, I love it. 797 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:48,400 Oh my gosh. Well, that's perfect. 798 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,240 I'll put both of those in the show notes and thank you so 799 00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:51,480 much.