Welcome to she persisted I'm your host Sadie Saxton a 19 year
old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of
Pennsylvania. She persisted is the Teen Mental
Health podcast made for teenagers by a team in each
episode. I'll bring you authentic
accessible and relatable conversations about every aspect
of mental Wellness. You can expect evidence-based,
Tina, proof resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT,
insights and education. In each piece of content, you
consume, she persisted Offers you a safe space to feel
validated and understood in your struggle.
While encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and
build your life worth living. So let's Dive In.
This week on she persisted they can start to feel so grim and
hopeless. You think, oh my gosh, how do I
even get out of this? You know I can't even see the
light but in working from a more strength based approach because
idea of believing this possibility for you like let's
go walk toward it and small ways every day.
Like, I'm just marching forward toward a better future, at least
I felt better about myself at least where I had some
self-respect and I was falling through One.
What I'd said I was going to do that is healing in and of
itself. Hello.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of she
persisted. I'm so excited because we are
covering two topics that we haven't really discussed on the
podcast before which are developmental psychology and
positive psychology with an amazing expert in both Fields,
dr. Sasha Heinz.
So I'm so excited to dive into this conversation.
If you're not familiar with dr. Hines, she is a developmental
psychologist. Life coach and an expert in
psychology. And an expert in positive
psychology lasting Behavior change and the science of
getting unstuck in our coaching capacity.
She teaches clients, the tools to change their lives for good.
And she also received her ba from Harvard.
Her PhD in developmental psychology from Columbia and her
Master's in applied positive psychology from Pain go Quakers.
I love having pain professors and pain graduates on the
podcast and dr. Hunt has both she served as a
faculty member and got her Master's here, so excited for
you guys to hear this conversation.
And here, all for insight on developmental psychology,
positive psychology. Help you can implement the tools
and principles from each into your lives.
Some wisdom from her own mental health, journey and things that
worked for her and things that she found helpful when she went
through her own coaching Journey, which I loved hearing
about. So, as always, if you like this
week's episode, make sure to share it with a friend or family
member, leave a review posted about it on social media, all of
the things, it really does help support the podcast and things.
As for listening, let's dive in. Well, thank you so much for
joining me today. Dr. Hines!
I'm so excited to have you and she persisted.
Hi Sadie. I'm so psyched to be here.
So, I would love to hear about your background before we dive
into all things, positive psychology, perfectionism, all
of the things. But how did you start working?
And the positive psychology field which was a very new field
when you did your training and then how you became a coach,
rather than a psychotherapist or working in Clinical Psychology,
which is the path that many people take the on, The answer
is in total faceplant in my life, plus double lock, really?
Honestly, that's how it happens. I had no intention of becoming a
psychologist, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life at
all. I had and I, you know, I went to
Penn for graduate school. I know you are kind now so I can
imagine, you know, your colleagues and your friends at
school pain is challenging. It's one of the top schools,
right? It's hard to get in to I imagine
like many of you guys, I had, you know, I just myopic focus on
College. I wanted to get into the best
college I could get into and was obsessed with this goal, but the
truth was like, Beyond getting there.
I had no idea what I was actually interested.
I was so kind of locked on this goal, and I was like, I have no
idea who I am, what I want to do, what I'm interested in what
I'm good at, you know, everything was always about and
externally oriented goal. I wanted to accomplish something
and so then I Contort myself to accomplish the goal, and learned
a lot persistence grit. All these wonderful things I can
grind it out. I can work really hard, that's
all awesome, but I didn't really have a relationship with myself.
So I got to college. And it did not go very well and
would not my happiest, four years of my life.
And I left College, totally lost and moralized unhappy and and
just feeling defeated in so many ways.
And vowing, never to go back to school.
Cool ever. Yeah and then I worked for a few
years in New York. Still kind of not really knowing
a word in production. I worked in advertising agency.
I just added a bunch of different things but nothing
that really felt a calling or something that I really deeply
wanted to do. And in this time of sort of
feeling lost and struggling and I was struggling with an eating
disorder and very open about that.
I think not enough women. Talk about yeah, recovering from
eating disorders. You know, people still talk
about it like a shameful things. Like that's what I went through.
Like the number of rows that struggle with body image issues
and body. Dysmorphia like, more people
should be talking about it. Yeah, it was a symptom of a lot
of things and it was just my system, kind of giving me a
message of hey you got to heal some things, like you've got to
pay attention, you know, it was like a very, very bright
flashing, light an alarm going off.
So I was in 12-step program trying to work on the eating
disorder and trying to get my life back together honestly
because I was just a mess I was you know bulimic And just trying
to get my life back into some relatively normal life.
And I ended up finding this coach and this was early days.
I mean, goodness gracious. I'm like a dinosaur compared to
you guys, but this is 2000 in what to that was before.
I was born. Okay, that is so crazy.
Yeah, so 2002 like coaching was what?
What is this thing? Like coaching?
It didn't really even exist, no one even knew really, what it
was and it's woman. Her name is Caroline Miller and
she had written. She'd also gone to Harvard.
She was an athlete. So was I All of a sudden we had
very similar, you know, parallel lives in so many ways and she
had written a book about her recovery from her bulimia and in
it on the dust jacket cover. It said she's a life coach in
Bethesda, Maryland. And I was like, what is this
thing? So, you know, to make a longer
story is somewhat shorter after hanging up on her.
The first time I called her back was, like, I'm ready.
So tired of this. I'm really ready to do the work.
I'm not going to mess around, I'm not going to try to control
it. Whatever you tell me to do, I'll
do, I was just so desperate to heal and to change and to not be
you know, in the throes of an addiction, it just was a
horrible way to live. So anyhow I worked with her and
I loved it and I had seen therapist but it just it was the
first time, you know what it was for me.
It was like in therapy and I have had some fantastic
therapist over my lifetime and I am such an advocate of people
working with us skillful therapist unravel, some of their
own stuff. It's so important to have that
particular relationship and Is but for me at that time and the
people that I had been working with, I didn't really know who
to see side to side with anyone. There was this aspect of therapy
which was sort of like validating my messiness.
Yeah, trust me. I needed it.
I needed someone to be like, I know things are hard, I see you.
It's okay. But there is this other part of
me is like I just need help. Like I need to live a day where
i'm not mess and I'm breaking promises to myself every darn
day. It was just awful and working
with Caroline was the first time that she had kind of held me to
a higher standard. She's like you're better than
this. Let's do this.
Are you in or you out? And I was like oh my gosh yeah
it reminded me of my sports coaches who sometimes it'll
start with me you know yes to hello.
Come on Sasha I can do better than this.
You can work a little harder. It wasn't this feeling of being
pressured or pushed. It was like someone was actually
holding a vision of what was possible for me that I totally
could believe in because she believed in it.
And instead of me focusing on what wasn't working and how You
play in the pit I was and just had no idea how to get out of
it. She was like, if you just do
what I tell you to do and just stay on this protocol with me
and I will support you through it.
I promise you in six months or life will be totally different
and she was right. That was the beginning of me
getting really serious and joined a 12-step program and got
a sponsor and simplified my life in many ways and so just focus
on that. And it really did totally change
my life. And just from working with her
findings, Her and being in, just a complete place of Despair,
that changed my life. And from that moment on, I
wanted to be a coach. I love it.
What you're saying? I remember the exact same
experience with more typical. Psycho talk therapy versus DBT.
I remember, I had this therapist when I was at boarding school
where I, what do I do and he would like what do you think you
should do? I don't think that's not what
you're supposed to say. You're supposed to tell me what
to do. How would I know?
I'm the one that got me into this mess.
Where is in DB T? They tell you exactly what to
do, all of the time. Tell you what skill to use to
get from point A to point B. And what skill to use when
you're feeling overwhelmed and what skill to use if you're
struggling with a self-harm merge or suicidal ideation.
And I think, especially for people that struggle with that
emotion regulation and know very well that they caught themselves
into this mess. Having someone that can guide
them through things and give them gills and advice, and
wisdom is so necessary. And so so, so helpful and
getting to the other side. Totally.
I think that what you're saying is interesting.
When you were talking, I was like, I have not thought this
before, but what you just said, made me think I'm thinking about
it now. From a developmentalist
perspective, which I am now developmental psychologist.
Yeah. Interestingly both types of
therapy are effective and are necessary, but I think the
critical thing is the order of operations because you wouldn't
evolved into a self authored mindset yet which is a higher
order developmental stage. It's so therapy.
That's focused on. What do you think and is
eliciting from the person? What's your opinion?
How would you solve this problem and actually trying to help them
be more self offered to orient? Their self-concept internally,
that's good. We want to get there but for a
lot of people they haven't mastered the skills.
Some what we call, socialize mindset of just sort of basic,
how do we get along in society stuff?
Which is really necessary. But yeah.
Child and adult development. And so, it makes so much sense
to me because I think that's exactly where I was to.
I'm like I needed help in emerging adulthood just
adulting, I needed the Dalton skills and how to take care of
myself and not treat myself. Like absolute garbage and I
needed to learn how to do those things.
So interesting. Because at that developmental
stage, I really did need someone to sort of say, here's what you
were going to do. And give me that confidence,
that that she knew to help me in the same way that for you DBT
offer. Out for you.
And I think as I've gotten older, that approach is less
appealing because I've evolved. Don't tell me what to do.
I'm going to talk, you know, mentally.
I think that our task as we develop evolving, grow is to
become more self bothered and to orient ourselves internally and
to not be taking everybody to temperature like how do they do?
It was okay. Yeah, do.
Well, I do a lot of that work with my clients who are secretly
like kind of feel secretly childish that I can't make a big
decision about my life without asking 30 people.
What? They think, and I'm like, oh my
God, that's a developmental issue, they just haven't
learned. The skill sets yet of that sort
of more stuff authored mindset. But I think that's true and I
don't think that many people therapists are thinking about it
from this perspective. Like, what is the treatment that
this person needs given? Where they're at developmental?
Like me, a fifteen-year-old like suicidally depressed.
She thought she didn't deserve love.
Should not be doing the internal look inside for the therapeutic
Solutions but yeah, and it's definitely something I agree
with you. Now looking inwards.
Really understanding where my values align and what
relationships feel right and what decisions feel like they're
at my highest good is something. Now that I really do enjoy and
value and is important. As you get into that self
authored, places you were talking about.
But at some point you just not there and it's not effective to
be trying to find the answers alone.
Yeah, you just need. You need the guidance.
You need the support. You need the guard rails.
You need to learn how to practice and so much of our
mental health. And I'm not talking about like,
Mental Health, Health, as opposed to mental illness.
I'm talking to us like our thriving as human writ large,
and managing our mind, is the skill set.
And nobody talks about it like that.
We talk about it, like you just won the genetic lottery, or you
didn't, or you won the trauma lottery, or you didn't, you
didn't have these horrible things happen to you.
So you're okay, or you had amazing parents who maybe were
more securely attached. And so you have an easier time
with your anxiety and rumination and all those things.
And so we sort of talked about in this as, if it's this, like,
you either, got lucky and you didn't in some coffee.
It's not true. It really is like anything else.
There is a genetic Factor, right?
This epigenetics is gene-environment interaction
sure. Genetics play A Part.
Sure. Your environment plays A Part,
as well, they interact together and you have a lot of autonomy
and in the same way that someone who's never run a marathon
before, can learn how to run a marathon, or someone who's never
Ever picked up a tennis racket. You can learn how to swing a
forehand. The same thing is true with our
mental Fitness that we can become much more skillful in
managing our mind, we can become much more flexible in tolerating
are challenging emotions. We can be much more resilient in
the face of disappointment and all this and we can learn how to
deal with all of the resistance to taking action in a more.
Skillful way we can absolutely learn to do these things.
There's not just like you won some Lottery.
Yeah. What skills that you learned
during that initial coaching period with Caroline and then
completely turning your life around?
Pulling yourself out of that Rock Bottom, do you still
utilize today to maintain that mental Fitness and progress that
you made? It's so funny.
I happen to be going through kind of a tough but, you know,
just in my own life, like, I had to make a really hard decision,
and hopefully was so emotional for me, and so hard, and I felt
so raw and I'm married. Now, I have two kids and my
husbands really supportive of me.
I've known him for 20 years, you know, I met him when I was still
very messy and you sort of been through this whole journey with
me and I was seeing him like a she don't I feel in some way
like just as raw as they did back.
When I was graduating from college, is feeling completely
unraveled, but I have different skills.
Now, to deal with it, right? And I've been through that,
like, it doesn't scare me in the same way, but I think one of the
things I said to him was like, okay, I know exactly what to do,
go back to basics. Yeah, there's going to be six,
you know, I mean, simple, simple things like Taking care of
myself and my exercising. Am I eating?
Well am I sleeping a reasonable amount?
Amaya prioritizing time to be outside.
I'm making sure that you know I am spending time with people
that feel really supportive and loving am.
I letting them know kind of where I'm at?
Like hey yeah, no problem going back to those really basic
things that do just make an enormous difference to just
feeling better. So at least, You feel like
you're on Terra Firma and then you can weather the storm, you
know, it's okay, you can you can get through it, but I do think
that that's something I learned, you know, with working with
Caroline all those years ago, was my life is so chaotic, any
addict, their life is so chaotic, like it's just such a
mess, it's just messiness all over the place and so it was
just an exercise of cleaning things up and doing like the
next right? Thing?
You know, and Back to Basics, like am I following my food
protocol? Am I going to bed on time?
Just that kind of my making sure that I'm getting some sunshine
and exercise like, it really was just simplifying things.
Yeah, I think the biggest difference for me that I've
identified is the coping skills that I use.
Now, when I have having a rough day or a rough couple of days or
wrath moment, they're either keeping me in the same place
mental health wise, they're making me feel a little bit
better. Whereas the coping skills I used
to use, would put me like six steps backwards and be like,
leaning on a codependent relationship, self-harming
suicide, attempts engaging in suicidal.
Creation, which just became a more condition pattern of coping
strategy. In an extreme way never
processing through an emotion. So just either just staying
where you are not making things. Worse is a huge thing or if you
can engaging in those habits that will make your life better
like getting enough sleep. Making sure that you're fueling
your body, making sure you're getting outside, getting
exercise. All of those things are simple.
They are Basics, but they're so powerful and maintaining your
mental health. Yeah.
It's I think that what you said is, absolutely right.
Which is you forget but the Reality is it's so much about
what you don't do. Yeah.
Right.
I mean, I think when things still challenging often is about
the choices that you're making, we were saying like, I'm not
going to engage in that thing that I know is adding fuel to
the fire. Yeah, on some level even though
it, maybe give me momentary relief, choosing not to engage
in that. It's almost like it's more about
weeding out and pruning out than it is about adding it like it's
just sticking to these sort of basic things and saying like
Okay this is not available for me right now.
Now, yeah, it's like setting that boundary yourself and it
doesn't have to be like, okay, I'm going to try one hour
meditation or I am going to do a silent Retreat like, no need to
do that the big job so effective and exhaustible exactly right?
I mean, it really is that basic, I think that's such a great
Point. People thinking, oh, I need to
go to some, I need to go to a yoga retreat or a meditation.
Please. Do I need to do something
drastic. It's like, no.
Here are some few things you can do.
Don't drink not drinking. Drinking is going to make your
anxiety worse and it's not going to improve.
It will give you a momentary feeling of relief, and it will
exacerbate things the next day or later, like, there's just the
way it works anxiety and they talking about it on Tick, Tock
to think, like, it will just add gasoline to your anxiety fire
for sure. You know, it also will disrupt
your sleep and things like that. So that whether it's any kind of
substances that give you, sort of that momentary relief.
I call it emotional novocaine. Like, it's just really about
staying away from you. Ocean and Advocate the things
that will numb, that the challenging feelings
momentarily. But end up exacerbating them
because they allow you to kick it down the road and avoid it.
And so the only way through anything is just by committing
to it and recognizing like, this is what I'm going through.
It's hard. And my only job is to like stick
with the basic and say present with us.
Yeah. So talk to me about where
positive psychology fits into all of this, was this something
that you now look back and I like I was using these Suppose
or you then realized how effective it was and started
using it with your clients. After the fact, when I went to
Penn, I wasn't working with clients.
I was just purely going to graduate school, you know, to
learn. But obviously I always say, it's
me search, right? And I mean, I don't find me a
psychologist. Who's like, in this field on
some level? It's not me search.
I was I think that I loved this idea that I didn't have to
constantly, sort of be rolling around in my own muck to get
Clean like this idea that's absurd psychoanalysis like
pulling apart all the things and then it just wasn't really
working for me and it's emotionally exhausting also to
just constantly be in that. Mmm.
Yeah you can start to feel so grim and hopeless, you think, oh
my gosh, like how do I even get out of this?
You know, I can't even see the light.
But in working from a more strength based approach is idea
of believing this possibility for you like let's go walk
toward it and small ways every day like I'm Marching forward
toward a better future, at least I feel better about myself at
least where I had some self-respect and I was following
through on what I'd said I was going to do that is healing in
and of itself. Right?
Just the erosion for especially for people in addiction, like
the erosion of their relationship with themselves.
Because every day, they break promises with himself every damn
day. That's all they're doing.
So in, you know, as you begin to rebuild that sense of trust with
yourself like okay, It's you start to like yourself a little
bit more. You start to feel a little bit
better and what I found for me was it the more the better I
felt about how I was showing up every day.
The easier it was for me to actually do the healing work, I
needed to do because I had a stronger foundation.
So I found that this counterintuitive thing happens
which was the more I focused on what was working and what was
right and just taking small actions to to just feel better.
The easier it was for me to sort of to actually Like, okay, this
is what happened. And this is, you know, how in
some ways I was wounded or things fell apart, and was able
to do some of that, like, I was able to handle the grief and
able to handle my feelings. It was just able to handle them
better because I had a stronger Foundation from you start, you
know, that develops. So, you know, I just encourage
people that this idea that it has to be either one or the
other, like, you've got to pick a lane, like that's complete
nonsense. They can do them together.
Think that both approaches Complement each other.
So, well, today's episode is brought to you by teen
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What are a couple ways that listeners can Implement positive
psychology principles and their life?
Is it like rewiring a thought pattern is it certain behaviors
that you're engaging in? You talked about working to not
break those promises with yourself.
How do Recommend that people begin to implement these
practices. That's a great question.
How do we begin to implement these practices?
One of the things I think that positive psychology, well,
positive psychology to me, offered a totally different
framework of thinking about mental health for me, so that I
loved which was like oh we don't actually have to talk about
ourselves through the lens of pathology.
I can actually have a conversation about growth and
development. That is you know, a high-level
conversation about Optimal human functioning and growth and
development and well-being. That's outside of the context of
what's not working disease, disorders functions, ethology.
So that alone was really wonderful.
And I think that one of the other things about positive
psychology, sort of implicit in the field, is this idea that?
I mean, there's a developmental psychologist.
I'm looking at, you know, developmental arcs, right?
So, but I think, with my positive psychology had on, I'm
looking at the possibility of a positive are, right?
I'm like, I'm positive pivot. And I think that lens of always,
sort of looking for like we, you know, how do we make something
better? How do we help people thrive or
how do we help people see things in a way that enhances their
meaning or, you know, their relationships Etc?
That we're always looking at something through that lens of
like, instead of mitigating Armada, getting a weakness
mitigating, some kind of wound, it's actually looking at
enhancing strengths and so that approach alone is just more fun.
It is just More fun, it really is like one of the reasons and
there's been some interesting studies.
Acacia Park said she was actually a getting her doctorate
at Penn. Wait, Avalon was like, 2005, but
they were doing she, and Marty Seligman did a study looking at.
It was called something positive Psychotherapy, and they had
different treatment groups in one of them was a positive
psychology intervention, treatment group is where the
group of clinically depressed people and they had a really
good outcomes with the positive psychology intervention and and
one of the highwomen How does this was?
Well, it's just more fun and people engage what they wanted
to do it more. Yeah, I am.
You're giving someone who feels a sense of hopelessness.
A sense of hope. Right?
It's like it life and I think that was it for me.
This feeling of like this isn't it?
Life can get so much better. Yeah.
And that little flicker of light is what gave me the motivation
to go for it. You have to have that, you have
to see it. You had to see the possibility
and Rick Snyder, hope researcher called This Way power, right?
You have to see that. That it's possible for you to
overcome these obstacles, if you don't think it's possible, why
bother 100%? I remember, every single time I
did DBT, did a lot of times, the last one was, when it really
stuck. The first thing that they do is
ask you about your life worth living.
And for me, and so many other patients, that's not even
something that they fathomed. This idea of living a life where
again it is worth living where suicide isn't a question where
you have things you look forward to people aren't thinking about
that. I was reading, I don't know if
you've read lost connections by Johann Hari, but he talks about
how When people are really depressed, they lose the sense
of the future. They did a study where they
asked adolescents that were highly emotionally.
Distressed one group was individuals that were struggling
with anorexia and one group was individuals that were struggling
with depression and they were reading like a comic book,
they're watching the comic and asking, like, how does this
character feel 10 years from now and the kids that were
struggling with anorexia? Who were deeply, emotionally
distressed, we're able to say, oh well, he probably feels this
way, or this is the context and the kids that were struggling
with depression. We're not even able to explain
that or fathom it or try and contemplate what that would be
like because they were so focused on like the emotional
distress in the present and that sense the future was just
completely gone. And I think that's something
that's really true for people that are struggling with
depression and anxiety and all these things that you lose that
sense of hope you lose that sense of the future.
And so DBT, they always start with that.
What is your life worth living like, get really detailed about
it? What are your relationships that
are in your life? How do you feel in those
relationships? What behaviors, do you engage
in? How do you feel when you wake up
in the The morning, what is your schedule look like?
So you have a goal that you're pursuing and you have something
that you're working towards when you learn all these skills and
when you do all this work because that's not always clear.
And I think people just think like, oh, people are aiming to
not be depressed or not, be anxious or not, be struggling.
I'm for me, that wasn't even a goal.
I thought was possible. I thought that I was meant to be
depressed for the rest of my life and so maybe I was learning
the skills, but what was the point?
Because there wasn't another side.
And so I love that concept of providing that hope.
And really making that positive trajectory transparent with the
client with the patient because it's something that's so lost
and forgotten about for so many definitely.
And I think the other thing that causes psychology has done,
which has been really important in often I think overlooked is
because it gets a lot of flack for.
So it's happy ology, especially in what we call business, as
usual psychology and I say that from being on both sides of the
aisle. But I think one of the things
that pause psychology has offered is a much broader a much
richer. Understanding of what well-being
actually is, it's not just, oh, I'm happy, it is a whole host of
things that it's about. Meaning it's about the quality
of your relationships. It's about positive effect, but
it's not just Joy. It's also curiosity Amusement
piece. Hope like there's so many other
positive emotions to explore outside of just feeling happy.
Yeah, yeah, right. Understanding the role of
setting a goal achievement having a dream taking steps
towards that, and then also engagement in flow and the role
of what we call Peak Human Experience in a life, well-lived
or someone that self-reports very high.
And so, and life satisfaction is there deeply engaged in flow
activities? So it's just given us a much
richer. Understanding of what well-being
actually is. And I think that has been
enormously helpful in the work, I do with my clients because I
think that people feel Like I just didn't get that happy gene
or whatever. It's like who cares there are so
many other avenues towards a meaningful, Rich, wonderful,
adventurous life and it doesn't necessarily have to do with your
own temperament, you know. Yeah, I love that.
Especially because for so many people, the goal is being happy,
the coal stop being sad. But if you are so far from that
goal and it feels so unattainable to not have that
broken down into having these passions and feeling like
everyday. You have Level of satisfaction
and feeling emotions Beyond just Joy or quote unquote happiness.
I think that is very motivating and gives a lot of hope to get a
lot more clear on this abstract thing that is being happy and it
makes it a lot easier, not even easier.
But for me, someone who hates and certainty, it feels a lot
better to be able to have these goals that you're working
towards rather, than this abstract thing being like, I
want to engage in Hobbies, I don't know.
Five out of seven days a week or I want to communicate and be
connected. And relationships that make me
feel supported every day, whether that's a text or an
email, those goals feel so much more achievable, and attainable
than this like abstract. Oh, I'm going to try and be
happy. Exactly.
I mean, happiness is something that it's sort of a byproduct.
It's not, it's not the goal itself, it's the byproduct of
the journey and I think more. So, you know, the goal I love
Barbara, frederickson's research on positive emotions but you
know she talks about love as being the master of positive
emotion and heard understanding. And definition of Love Is That
we are experiencing love. Anytime we're sharing a positive
emotion with someone. We're experiencing love so you
and I geeking out about this topic, which we love so much.
We're both interested in it, right?
We're both at deeply engaged in this conversation.
We're having a moment of Love Like that's what this is.
My neurons are firing and mirroring yours.
Like that's what's happening. Biologically, even though we're
on Zoom same, it's still happening happen over the phone.
I think that really to me is the goal.
It's like, can we can we amplify the amount of Love that we
experience in our life and I mean that broadly like sharing
an interest sharing curiosity sharing a moment of awe like
going to a football game and everyone whatever singing
together that's all doing the wave, it doesn't have to be done
in a religious context, sharing a moment of Joy, sharing a
moment of comfort of care, compassion, whatever it is.
That's experience of love. It love is truly ubiquitous it's
available all over the place for all of us all the time.
And when thinking about like if my All is to enhance and
amplify. The amount of love that I'm
experiencing in life and feel that my life is Meaningful to me
and a part of something bigger than me.
That my life is valuable to others in some capacity that my
existence for this brief little blip on this planet matters and
then I think like you're on your way to living a pretty amazing
life. You know.
It's really just like the word happiness is sort of made this
also murky. I think positive psychology is
done us. Absolute service and really
making this so much more sophisticated the way that we
talk about what well-being really is, you know, what is the
good life? How do we understand this?
How do we think about it? Using the scientific method to
question it? Poke holes ask questions all of
the above but I think it gives you a totally different lens in
which to think about this. It's not the sort of very in
some way infantile dichotomy between like sad or happy.
Yeah. Yeah and it's so much more
nuanced. You mentioned happy.
And positive psychology obviously has become quite the
buzz word and Buzz concept. What are some things that you
wish people knew that you could debunk these myths that are
floating around where you're like.
This is just so not with positive psychology is we gotta
stop talking about it this way. What are some things that come
to mind? And boy I think there's still
this lingering. It's really interesting.
Why positive psychology has become such a lightning rod, it
was from the beginning like the idea that we're studying Well,
being makes people angry. Yeah, 300 me, but it's so weird.
Yeah. I mean, when I was at seriously,
when I was at Columbia, I wrote a paper on a favor.
The, by the way it was Journal article, you know, it was in one
of these like handbooks or whatever it was a white paper
that I'd written with a professor at the time.
And it was on positive psychology and developmental
psychology. And I had, in my mind, been very
balanced about the holes in positive psychology, from a
developmental perspective and what like what it off Is what it
doesn't, what? They focus on what they have and
etcetera. So it to me, it was a fairly
measured and balance. However, I remember, my
professor was not a fan of the whole positive psychology world.
I would tell people Sotto voce that I had, I had a degree in
positive psychology when I got to Columbia at for my doctorate
but and by the way, I love the pain program is so phenomenal.
And I've taught there and it's just, it's a really rich and
wonderful learning is one of the richest learning environment
I've ever had. The fun of being a part of, but
in any case, I wrote this article and the feedback from my
professor was like you have to stop letting them tell you like
what you believe you need to think for yourself.
And that's why she was so upset that I didn't go this the rate
them and that it wasn't a scathing review of positive
psychology. And anyway, I ended up removing
my knee, I wrote with her what she wanted, and then at the end
I said, I'm so sorry. But I'm going to remove my name
from this because I don't believe what we're publishing.
This is not What I believe in and she was so upset about this
and it was such a funny reaction and I felt like that was always
kind of dare this feeling of like you study happiness, and
that's not important. What's important is truly, you
know, people are suffering people have real problems and
you want to focus on optimizing. Someone's well-being like that
is frivolous like, that really was the party line for sure.
Definitely. If you know, in the same way,
you know and I think this makes sense because like Psychology
kind of grew out of in some way mimicking, the medical model
same idea really? Curing cancer is more important
than, you know, helping someone become me be more fit.
I we have this hierarchy of what's more important, right?
What's, what is more urgent? And there's valid reasons for
that. But it is so fascinating to me
how agitated it made people that like people were actually
interested in studying what makes life worth living like
yeah. Like that's offensive it was so
interesting. So Why people get so upset and
then I find this other sort of bit so the lingering of that
like that's been going on since what I really 2000s then I would
say the newer version of that is is like oh I'll just toxic
positivity. Yeah right I take umbrage with
this. Toxic positivity is not
positivity. Its denial.
Yeah, it's invalidation. I did an episode on that with a
woman that wrote but it was called toxic positivity at the
hospital Whitney good men. And she was like, no, it's It's
not positivity, its invalidation.
It's like an inability to feel these emotions to process them.
It's distraction, it's a pressing these emotions.
They're two different things. Right.
And so I haven't heard that term, it's invalidation, but
that is exactly right. It's using the language of
positivity, but it's a completely different Arena.
Yeah. Maladaptive coping mechanism.
That's what it is. So I get asked this a lot about
what toxic positivity and like don't you think that we're all
obsessed with me? Positive all the time.
I like, oh, seriously, like take a look at the landscape.
You think everyone's obsessed with being positive?
Like I think it's not really the opposite.
Yeah. I think not like know, most
people we have a negativity bias.
At the way, our brains are wired.
We attend to, you know, negative emotions are louder and stronger
for a good reason. We have to offset that
negativity bias with a higher ratio of positive emotions.
Even people with clinical depression, feel more positive
effect than that. Of effect truly.
So, you know, I think this is like gross reduction of the
actual science, and it sort of makes positive psychology again.
It's like trying to put us in this like Lindsay unimportant
box and I'm like, I'm sorry. Yeah.
What is more important than actually having a high-level
conversation about what is the good life?
How to get there? Like, Really Brave down?
Making it clear? Accessible, is what we, just You
know, Scholars theologians philosophers, great, thinkers
from time. Immemorial had been asking this
question, right? I've been, you know, wrestling
with this question. So I think it's deeply important
and I love that. Some really brilliant mind are
out there and and engaging in research that for the first time
in a long time. And this is a real shift in like
the late 90s and the early 2000s, where research dollars
are actually being put into like let's study why?
Do we have positive emotions. What's the point?
What do they do? Self-report is high in life
satisfaction? What are they doing?
That other people are not like these are critical questions,
they're not unimportant, they're deeply important.
So there's this sort of Hangover of, you know, you just want to
focus on, you know, positivity and you don't want to tend to
reality like no, no, you know, in the immortal words of Scott,
Peck, mental health is a commitment to reality at all
costs. So, yeah, we are, we are Getting
with the premise that to be well means that we have to live in
reality nor actually attending to the demands of reality.
Yeah, I just think about the number of tick tocks, we
podcasts and articles. I see like these successful
people are doing this or these top-earning people are doing
this in their lives and it almost makes me think that like
so many people do struggle to reach happiness or feel
satisfied, or feel successful. From a mental health perspective
that it's almost like coming at it from a scientific lens and
really breaking down how to get there.
People are like, no. Oh I should have figured it out
like no that can't be right because if it was that simple
and straightforward than I would have already been able to do
that and it's so interesting that that's the reaction.
I think it has something to do with people making the
assumption that what people are trying to say is like I'm doing
life better than you. Yeah, you know I'm living more
more elevated or more evolved than you are and that is not the
point. In fact, if you actually you
know engage with the literature and positive psychology, one
thing that you will know very well is there are Big biases,
and heuristics of the brain, and if you don't understand what
they are, you can get yourself in big trouble, right?
We have this rule of the brain, you know, this heuristic of
hedonic adaptation, which is that the human brain, the human
mind will adapt to the good, the bad, the ugly.
Right? It will adapt.
We are adaptable. Which is awesome.
Thank goodness, that we are right.
It's amazing. The - hard things that we can
adapt to and tolerate. And Continue to move forward
with. And on the other side of that we
also adapt to things being awesome.
Okay. We need to understand this
because if you don't understand this but you will be mystified
by the fact that you keep achieving all of these things
and yet you're still not happy. Why is that?
Oh, because it becomes The New Normal.
It becomes not exciting anymore. Yeah, right.
So you then you have to have strategies of like, okay, this
is the way my brain operate. If there is a rule book for how
my brain operates here, it is. Okay.
Noted now can I knowing this very important fact about my
brain? Can I come up with ways to
manage this and one very useful way to manage.
This is when I'm feeling down to moralize defeated whatever.
You know what I use. I use my past self.
My past self is my absolute best friend because, you know, what,
Sasha, ten years ago would say about Like the failure I'm
feeling today, she would be like, oh my gosh, you're upset
about this? Yeah, it's amazing.
Look what you accomplished. I'm so proud of you.
Yeah, truly the me 10 years ago, I'm wearing my pH, my friend
made this for me, it says, pH done, but I would never gave it
to me, but like that was a dream.
Ten years ago, I was like in it. I was in my doctorate chewing
glass. Meringue, right?
So my ten years ago self is like woman, your kids are awesome.
Here's that you couldn't figure, you know, you glue the camp
registration, you didn't get them into the camp, he wanted to
get into which a feeling terrible, whatever.
Right. Whatever the the drama of the
day myself, 10 years ago is lycos please.
Yeah, right. Like what you've done is
incredible. So looking at the game and using
my past self as that reference point of like she's so proud.
Oh my gosh. My 22 year old self is literally
like, she's losing her mind. She can't believe what we've
been able to do. None of this thing possible to
her, right? So, but when I'm looking at,
from the vantage, point of I'm now 43 and I'm and I'm in my 43
year-old self, I can get all in despair about all sorts of
stuff. If there was one thing, you
wish, the general public knew from either your developmental
psychology World positive psychology that you think, would
be really beneficial to put things in perspective or just
kind of Understand about how we function that most people aren't
aware of what would it be? I think the other one that I
wish that everyone really understood.
Like, I mean, understood to the point where I was like yeah I
you know it was I taught kindergarten every app on my
sandwich away. You understood things from day.
One is what we call the availability heuristic which
means that you are always going to reference yourself to the
most proximal example. What do I mean by this?
I mean that At this is like past self versus now self, right?
You're always going to reference yourself according to your peer
group. So as you become more, skillful
at something, like, let's say, I'm not a musician at all, but
let's say you're somewhere my brother and you don't.
And, you know, when you're little and you're in third grade
and you're comparing yourself to like the other kids that are in
your little teachers recital group, and then You know, you
get pretty good and you then start playing in a local like
children Symphony and then you move up to chair one and then
and so on and so forth or first chair whatever it's called,
okay? And as you become better and
better and better guess what? So your peers.
Yeah because you get picked for some Elite thing and so did
those other people. So you are no longer comparing
yourself to like little Susie who was playing violin with you.
In third grade that you are much more skillful, the violin that
she is now. They are not comparing Stuff to
her anymore. You're comparing yourself to the
other first chair. So, as you increase your skill
set in anything, your peer group, also increases its skill
set, that's the way it works. So you're never going to feel
like you've arrived, you're never going to feel like you're
good enough. You're never ever going to feel
the kind of confidence that you think you will feel if you
accomplish something. Wow, like you are always
referencing yourself based on that group.
So, if you just know this from the beginning, you know, And I
remember the revealing story, I was at Penn for some meeting.
This is maybe five years ago or longer than that, but I already
finished my doctorate and I was at a meeting at Penn.
And there was like, amazing people, Angela Duckworth and
Marty Seligman, and the number of other incredible Scholars.
I'm sitting at the table and you know what?
I'm feeling like a peanut. Yeah, I feel like a total key on
compared to these guys and normally in an environment like
that I would be so jazzed. I'm learning so much and I mean,
just listening to what they're working on, it would be so fun.
Anyway, came home, my shoulders are slumped and I my husband's
like, what's going on, why are you so down?
But you were just with all these amazing people and I was like
I'll never be as you know, researcher like Angela and my
husband's like, oh my gosh, like seriously, he's like, I think
you just finished a doctor at that just like pronounce that
you are an expert? Like yeah.
But not like her. Right.
So you know what I mean? And then you sort of have a
moment where you're like, oh my gosh, shoulda had a V-8, right?
That's what I'm doing. Is I'm making my comparison
group, insane. The comparison group is like, is
Angela Duckworth, right? It's so unrealistic.
And, and she's such a phenomenal human being.
I just like really respect her so much, but it just goes to
show that, you know, in my fantasy of like oh when you
finish your doctor, you're going to feel really awesome.
All the touch waiting with so many people that just finished
their doctorates as well. Correct, that's right.
All of a sudden you're like, nope, this is now New Normal.
We've reached the Baseline. If you are still feeling like,
you know, gosh my comparison group is so competitive or so
amazing, right? Yeah, that's a good thing.
It means that you're growing and you're becoming more skillful
and becoming in developing more Mastery and whatever Arena
you're in and that's a wonderful thing.
But you just have to own that it's not going to feel
physically. So I'm going to emotionally feel
as good as you imagined it was going to feel, but if you can
manage your mind around it and recognize what's happening.
Binet. You can look at it as a positive
thing. Like, oh my God, this is
actually pretty exciting. Yeah.
But I wish everyone understood
that this is really for all those of you listening.
If you go look at online and just type silver, Medal winner
phases, it's hilarious. But yeah, least.
Happy person on the Olympic Podium is always the silver
medalist. Why has the bronze medalist?
Their reference group is the person that got fourth place
that isn't on the Liam. You're like man looking pretty
good right now. I could have gotten no metal and
forgotten for the rest of history but I'm going to be in
the history books. I'm on the podium like yeah,
sitting on the bronze medal at the Olympics.
Okay, the silver medalist is not referencing.
Like I beat the bronze medalist know they're thinking I missed
out on the gold there. Proximal reference point is the
gold medalist and so if you look at pictures of Olympic podiums
you will see a pattern and it by and large the Silver metal is
always pissed. This is going to be a tick tock.
This, I would have put pictures of all of them over this audio.
I can't wait to look that up. That's so funny.
So, you know, if you're feeling a little bit like that, right,
you know, like it just never feels as good as you think.
It's going to feel like you're right on track.
Yeah, nothing's wrong. You know, I wish I think that's
really what I think. Positive psychology is given is
it's like, it's offered a framework for normal
developmental human challenges so that we don't have to put
pologize. This like, it's not something
wrong with you. You don't have a, some terrible
imposter syndrome. It's like know, your brains
operating the way your brain is supposed to operate.
I love that. Your job is to develop a little
bit of Mastery over this crazy toddler amazing.
And I've never heard that before about the availability
heuristic, but it makes so much sense.
And it's such a powerful thing to remind yourself of and to
compare yourself to your previous self and put those
things in perspective because it's something that is very
easily. Forgotten totally.
Yeah, Where can people continue to consume your content connect
with you? I know you have a course, tell
listeners where they can consume everything.
I am on Instagram at dr. Sasha Heinz odrs aasha, agin Z
and my website. The same dr.
Sasha heinens.com. My team and I are changing
things up. And I'm really excited about
we've been doing courses. Mind your mind courses, and
changing things up. So, starting in October on
October 1st mind, your mind is becoming a monthly or a
membership Community, which I'm so excited about.
So, like sort of concept of a self development gem, a personal
development, Jim a place to go to implement the work, to
practice it, to learn the skills and and to practice them in
real-time, to have adult study hall, have a body double to work
with to a little extra support, to do hard things and to tackle
things together. So, you don't feel so isolated
and then tons of experts that are coming in to do.
Ask me. Anything is on Variety of
topics. So I'm really excited about this
new Endeavor that we're launching.
It's really just fits what I've always wanted it to be, you
know, we develop as human beings from Cradle to grave, it does
end. So you know, having a community
that you can always be a part of and you can make it more intense
or less intense, you know, as your life can handle at any
given time I think is really what it's what I've always
wanted to create. So I'm so excited about that.
And then also asynchronous courses that also have That will
be a part of the membership but you could buy or view or do all
the cart as well. So yeah, this is very excited
about it. Awesome.
All of that will be in today's show notes.
Thank you so much for joining me.
This was just such an amazing and insightful conversation that
I know. It's going to help so many
listeners. Well I just want to applaud you
so much. I have so much empathy.
I think you're brilliant. What you're doing is so not it's
just not easy in college. I could barely talk about
anything. Yeah, I was So ashamed of all of
my struggles and I just think it's such a beautiful thing that
you are so open and I love the way that you talk about it is
like it's skill-building cuz you're absolutely right.
And this is the way we should all be talking about it.
There's nothing shameful about learning, how to manage your
mind. Nobody teaches assist, you know?
Exactly. So I love what you're doing.
Keep it up. Thank you, thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she
persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to
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