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Welcome to she persisted I'm 
your host Sadie Saxton a 19 year

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old from the Bay Area studying 
psychology at the University of 

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Pennsylvania. 
She persisted is the Teen Mental

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Health podcast made for 
teenagers by a team in each 

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episode. 
I'll bring you authentic 

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accessible and relatable 
conversations about every aspect

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of mental Wellness. 
You can expect evidence-based, 

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Tina, proof resources, coping 
skills, including lots of DBT, 

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insights and education. 
In each piece of content, you 

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consume, she persisted Offers 
you a safe space to feel 

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validated and understood in your
struggle. 

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While encouraging you to take 
ownership of your journey and 

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build your life worth living. 
So let's Dive In. 

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This week on she persisted they 
can start to feel so grim and 

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hopeless. 
You think, oh my gosh, how do I 

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even get out of this? 
You know I can't even see the 

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light but in working from a more
strength based approach because 

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idea of believing this 
possibility for you like let's 

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go walk toward it and small ways
every day. 

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Like, I'm just marching forward 
toward a better future, at least

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I felt better about myself at 
least where I had some 

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self-respect and I was falling 
through One. 

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What I'd said I was going to do 
that is healing in and of 

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itself. 
Hello. 

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Hello and welcome back to 
another episode of she 

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persisted. 
I'm so excited because we are 

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covering two topics that we 
haven't really discussed on the 

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podcast before which are 
developmental psychology and 

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positive psychology with an 
amazing expert in both Fields, 

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dr. 
Sasha Heinz. 

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So I'm so excited to dive into 
this conversation. 

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If you're not familiar with dr. 
Hines, she is a developmental 

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psychologist. 
Life coach and an expert in 

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psychology. 
And an expert in positive 

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psychology lasting Behavior 
change and the science of 

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getting unstuck in our coaching 
capacity. 

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She teaches clients, the tools 
to change their lives for good. 

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And she also received her ba 
from Harvard. 

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Her PhD in developmental 
psychology from Columbia and her

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Master's in applied positive 
psychology from Pain go Quakers.

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I love having pain professors 
and pain graduates on the 

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podcast and dr. 
Hunt has both she served as a 

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faculty member and got her 
Master's here, so excited for 

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you guys to hear this 
conversation. 

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And here, all for insight on 
developmental psychology, 

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positive psychology. 
Help you can implement the tools

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and principles from each into 
your lives. 

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Some wisdom from her own mental 
health, journey and things that 

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worked for her and things that 
she found helpful when she went 

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through her own coaching 
Journey, which I loved hearing 

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about. 
So, as always, if you like this 

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week's episode, make sure to 
share it with a friend or family

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member, leave a review posted 
about it on social media, all of

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the things, it really does help 
support the podcast and things. 

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As for listening, let's dive in.
Well, thank you so much for 

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joining me today. 
Dr. Hines! 

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I'm so excited to have you and 
she persisted. 

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Hi Sadie. 
I'm so psyched to be here. 

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So, I would love to hear about 
your background before we dive 

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into all things, positive 
psychology, perfectionism, all 

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of the things. 
But how did you start working? 

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And the positive psychology 
field which was a very new field

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when you did your training and 
then how you became a coach, 

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rather than a psychotherapist or
working in Clinical Psychology, 

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which is the path that many 
people take the on, The answer 

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is in total faceplant in my 
life, plus double lock, really? 

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Honestly, that's how it happens.
I had no intention of becoming a

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psychologist, I had no idea what
I wanted to do with my life at 

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all. 
I had and I, you know, I went to

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Penn for graduate school. 
I know you are kind now so I can

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imagine, you know, your 
colleagues and your friends at 

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school pain is challenging. 
It's one of the top schools, 

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right? 
It's hard to get in to I imagine

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like many of you guys, I had, 
you know, I just myopic focus on

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College. 
I wanted to get into the best 

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college I could get into and was
obsessed with this goal, but the

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truth was like, Beyond getting 
there. 

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I had no idea what I was 
actually interested. 

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I was so kind of locked on this 
goal, and I was like, I have no 

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idea who I am, what I want to 
do, what I'm interested in what 

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I'm good at, you know, 
everything was always about and 

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externally oriented goal. 
I wanted to accomplish something

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and so then I Contort myself to 
accomplish the goal, and learned

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a lot persistence grit. 
All these wonderful things I can

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grind it out. 
I can work really hard, that's 

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all awesome, but I didn't really
have a relationship with myself.

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So I got to college. 
And it did not go very well and 

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would not my happiest, four 
years of my life. 

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And I left College, totally lost
and moralized unhappy and and 

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just feeling defeated in so many
ways. 

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And vowing, never to go back to 
school. 

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Cool ever. 
Yeah and then I worked for a few

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years in New York. 
Still kind of not really knowing

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a word in production. 
I worked in advertising agency. 

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I just added a bunch of 
different things but nothing 

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that really felt a calling or 
something that I really deeply 

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wanted to do. 
And in this time of sort of 

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feeling lost and struggling and 
I was struggling with an eating 

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disorder and very open about 
that. 

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I think not enough women. 
Talk about yeah, recovering from

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eating disorders. 
You know, people still talk 

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about it like a shameful things.
Like that's what I went through.

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Like the number of rows that 
struggle with body image issues 

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and body. 
Dysmorphia like, more people 

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should be talking about it. 
Yeah, it was a symptom of a lot 

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of things and it was just my 
system, kind of giving me a 

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message of hey you got to heal 
some things, like you've got to 

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pay attention, you know, it was 
like a very, very bright 

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flashing, light an alarm going 
off. 

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So I was in 12-step program 
trying to work on the eating 

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disorder and trying to get my 
life back together honestly 

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because I was just a mess I was 
you know bulimic And just trying

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to get my life back into some 
relatively normal life. 

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And I ended up finding this 
coach and this was early days. 

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I mean, goodness gracious. 
I'm like a dinosaur compared to 

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you guys, but this is 2000 in 
what to that was before. 

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I was born. 
Okay, that is so crazy. 

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Yeah, so 2002 like coaching was 
what? 

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What is this thing? 
Like coaching? 

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It didn't really even exist, no 
one even knew really, what it 

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was and it's woman. 
Her name is Caroline Miller and 

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she had written. 
She'd also gone to Harvard. 

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She was an athlete. 
So was I All of a sudden we had 

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very similar, you know, parallel
lives in so many ways and she 

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had written a book about her 
recovery from her bulimia and in

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it on the dust jacket cover. 
It said she's a life coach in 

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Bethesda, Maryland. 
And I was like, what is this 

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thing? 
So, you know, to make a longer 

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story is somewhat shorter after 
hanging up on her. 

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The first time I called her back
was, like, I'm ready. 

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So tired of this. 
I'm really ready to do the work.

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I'm not going to mess around, 
I'm not going to try to control 

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it. 
Whatever you tell me to do, I'll

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do, I was just so desperate to 
heal and to change and to not be

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you know, in the throes of an 
addiction, it just was a 

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horrible way to live. 
So anyhow I worked with her and 

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I loved it and I had seen 
therapist but it just it was the

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first time, you know what it was
for me. 

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It was like in therapy and I 
have had some fantastic 

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therapist over my lifetime and I
am such an advocate of people 

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working with us skillful 
therapist unravel, some of their

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own stuff. 
It's so important to have that 

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particular relationship and Is 
but for me at that time and the 

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people that I had been working 
with, I didn't really know who 

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to see side to side with anyone.
There was this aspect of therapy

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which was sort of like 
validating my messiness. 

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Yeah, trust me. 
I needed it. 

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I needed someone to be like, I 
know things are hard, I see you.

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It's okay. 
But there is this other part of 

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me is like I just need help. 
Like I need to live a day where 

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i'm not mess and I'm breaking 
promises to myself every darn 

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day. 
It was just awful and working 

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with Caroline was the first time
that she had kind of held me to 

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a higher standard. 
She's like you're better than 

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this. 
Let's do this. 

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Are you in or you out? 
And I was like oh my gosh yeah 

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it reminded me of my sports 
coaches who sometimes it'll 

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start with me you know yes to 
hello. 

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Come on Sasha I can do better 
than this. 

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You can work a little harder. 
It wasn't this feeling of being 

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pressured or pushed. 
It was like someone was actually

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holding a vision of what was 
possible for me that I totally 

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could believe in because she 
believed in it. 

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And instead of me focusing on 
what wasn't working and how You 

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play in the pit I was and just 
had no idea how to get out of 

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it. 
She was like, if you just do 

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what I tell you to do and just 
stay on this protocol with me 

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and I will support you through 
it. 

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I promise you in six months or 
life will be totally different 

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and she was right. 
That was the beginning of me 

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getting really serious and 
joined a 12-step program and got

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a sponsor and simplified my life
in many ways and so just focus 

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on that. 
And it really did totally change

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my life. 
And just from working with her 

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findings, Her and being in, just
a complete place of Despair, 

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that changed my life. 
And from that moment on, I 

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wanted to be a coach. 
I love it. 

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What you're saying? 
I remember the exact same 

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experience with more typical. 
Psycho talk therapy versus DBT. 

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I remember, I had this therapist
when I was at boarding school 

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where I, what do I do and he 
would like what do you think you

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should do? 
I don't think that's not what 

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you're supposed to say. 
You're supposed to tell me what 

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to do. 
How would I know? 

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I'm the one that got me into 
this mess. 

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Where is in DB T? 
They tell you exactly what to 

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do, all of the time. 
Tell you what skill to use to 

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get from point A to point B. 
And what skill to use when 

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you're feeling overwhelmed and 
what skill to use if you're 

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struggling with a self-harm 
merge or suicidal ideation. 

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And I think, especially for 
people that struggle with that 

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emotion regulation and know very
well that they caught themselves

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into this mess. 
Having someone that can guide 

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them through things and give 
them gills and advice, and 

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wisdom is so necessary. 
And so so, so helpful and 

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getting to the other side. 
Totally. 

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I think that what you're saying 
is interesting. 

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When you were talking, I was 
like, I have not thought this 

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before, but what you just said, 
made me think I'm thinking about

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it now. 
From a developmentalist 

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perspective, which I am now 
developmental psychologist. 

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Yeah. 
Interestingly both types of 

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therapy are effective and are 
necessary, but I think the 

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critical thing is the order of 
operations because you wouldn't 

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evolved into a self authored 
mindset yet which is a higher 

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order developmental stage. 
It's so therapy. 

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That's focused on. 
What do you think and is 

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eliciting from the person? 
What's your opinion? 

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How would you solve this problem
and actually trying to help them

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be more self offered to orient? 
Their self-concept internally, 

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that's good. 
We want to get there but for a 

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lot of people they haven't 
mastered the skills. 

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Some what we call, socialize 
mindset of just sort of basic, 

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how do we get along in society 
stuff? 

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Which is really necessary. 
But yeah. 

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Child and adult development. 
And so, it makes so much sense 

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to me because I think that's 
exactly where I was to. 

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I'm like I needed help in 
emerging adulthood just 

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adulting, I needed the Dalton 
skills and how to take care of 

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myself and not treat myself. 
Like absolute garbage and I 

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needed to learn how to do those 
things. 

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So interesting. 
Because at that developmental 

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stage, I really did need someone
to sort of say, here's what you 

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were going to do. 
And give me that confidence, 

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that that she knew to help me in
the same way that for you DBT 

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offer. 
Out for you. 

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And I think as I've gotten 
older, that approach is less 

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appealing because I've evolved. 
Don't tell me what to do. 

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I'm going to talk, you know, 
mentally. 

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I think that our task as we 
develop evolving, grow is to 

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become more self bothered and to
orient ourselves internally and 

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to not be taking everybody to 
temperature like how do they do?

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It was okay. 
Yeah, do. 

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Well, I do a lot of that work 
with my clients who are secretly

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like kind of feel secretly 
childish that I can't make a big

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decision about my life without 
asking 30 people. 

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What? 
They think, and I'm like, oh my 

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God, that's a developmental 
issue, they just haven't 

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learned. 
The skill sets yet of that sort 

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of more stuff authored mindset. 
But I think that's true and I 

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don't think that many people 
therapists are thinking about it

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from this perspective. 
Like, what is the treatment that

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this person needs given? 
Where they're at developmental? 

244
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Like me, a fifteen-year-old like
suicidally depressed. 

245
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She thought she didn't deserve 
love. 

246
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Should not be doing the internal
look inside for the therapeutic 

247
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Solutions but yeah, and it's 
definitely something I agree 

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with you. 
Now looking inwards. 

249
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Really understanding where my 
values align and what 

250
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relationships feel right and 
what decisions feel like they're

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at my highest good is something.
Now that I really do enjoy and 

252
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value and is important. 
As you get into that self 

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authored, places you were 
talking about. 

254
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But at some point you just not 
there and it's not effective to 

255
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be trying to find the answers 
alone. 

256
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,500
Yeah, you just need. 
You need the guidance. 

257
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You need the support. 
You need the guard rails. 

258
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You need to learn how to 
practice and so much of our 

259
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mental health. 
And I'm not talking about like, 

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Mental Health, Health, as 
opposed to mental illness. 

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I'm talking to us like our 
thriving as human writ large, 

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and managing our mind, is the 
skill set. 

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And nobody talks about it like 
that. 

264
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We talk about it, like you just 
won the genetic lottery, or you 

265
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didn't, or you won the trauma 
lottery, or you didn't, you 

266
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didn't have these horrible 
things happen to you. 

267
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So you're okay, or you had 
amazing parents who maybe were 

268
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more securely attached. 
And so you have an easier time 

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with your anxiety and rumination
and all those things. 

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And so we sort of talked about 
in this as, if it's this, like, 

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you either, got lucky and you 
didn't in some coffee. 

272
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It's not true. 
It really is like anything else.

273
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There is a genetic Factor, 
right? 

274
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This epigenetics is 
gene-environment interaction 

275
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,400
sure. 
Genetics play A Part. 

276
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Sure. 
Your environment plays A Part, 

277
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as well, they interact together 
and you have a lot of autonomy 

278
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,200
and in the same way that someone
who's never run a marathon 

279
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before, can learn how to run a 
marathon, or someone who's never

280
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,200
Ever picked up a tennis racket. 
You can learn how to swing a 

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forehand. 
The same thing is true with our 

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mental Fitness that we can 
become much more skillful in 

283
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managing our mind, we can become
much more flexible in tolerating

284
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are challenging emotions. 
We can be much more resilient in

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the face of disappointment and 
all this and we can learn how to

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00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:06,300
deal with all of the resistance 
to taking action in a more. 

287
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:09,600
Skillful way we can absolutely 
learn to do these things. 

288
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,200
There's not just like you won 
some Lottery. 

289
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,600
Yeah. 
What skills that you learned 

290
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,600
during that initial coaching 
period with Caroline and then 

291
00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:19,700
completely turning your life 
around? 

292
00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:21,800
Pulling yourself out of that 
Rock Bottom, do you still 

293
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,200
utilize today to maintain that 
mental Fitness and progress that

294
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:26,900
you made? 
It's so funny. 

295
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:29,200
I happen to be going through 
kind of a tough but, you know, 

296
00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:32,200
just in my own life, like, I had
to make a really hard decision, 

297
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,900
and hopefully was so emotional 
for me, and so hard, and I felt 

298
00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:39,600
so raw and I'm married. 
Now, I have two kids and my 

299
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:41,200
husbands really supportive of 
me. 

300
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,600
I've known him for 20 years, you
know, I met him when I was still

301
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,600
very messy and you sort of been 
through this whole journey with 

302
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,200
me and I was seeing him like a 
she don't I feel in some way 

303
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,400
like just as raw as they did 
back. 

304
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,300
When I was graduating from 
college, is feeling completely 

305
00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:57,400
unraveled, but I have different 
skills. 

306
00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,500
Now, to deal with it, right? 
And I've been through that, 

307
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,100
like, it doesn't scare me in the
same way, but I think one of the

308
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:04,500
things I said to him was like, 
okay, I know exactly what to do,

309
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:07,100
go back to basics. 
Yeah, there's going to be six, 

310
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:10,400
you know, I mean, simple, simple
things like Taking care of 

311
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,800
myself and my exercising. 
Am I eating? 

312
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,400
Well am I sleeping a reasonable 
amount? 

313
00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:18,400
Amaya prioritizing time to be 
outside. 

314
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,600
I'm making sure that you know I 
am spending time with people 

315
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,500
that feel really supportive and 
loving am. 

316
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:25,000
I letting them know kind of 
where I'm at? 

317
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:34,700
Like hey yeah, no problem going 
back to those really basic 

318
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:38,300
things that do just make an 
enormous difference to just 

319
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:40,200
feeling better. 
So at least, You feel like 

320
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,200
you're on Terra Firma and then 
you can weather the storm, you 

321
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,500
know, it's okay, you can you can
get through it, but I do think 

322
00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,900
that that's something I learned,
you know, with working with 

323
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:52,600
Caroline all those years ago, 
was my life is so chaotic, any 

324
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,300
addict, their life is so 
chaotic, like it's just such a 

325
00:15:56,308 --> 00:15:59,500
mess, it's just messiness all 
over the place and so it was 

326
00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:02,900
just an exercise of cleaning 
things up and doing like the 

327
00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:03,900
next right? 
Thing? 

328
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:06,900
You know, and Back to Basics, 
like am I following my food 

329
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:09,500
protocol? 
Am I going to bed on time? 

330
00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:13,400
Just that kind of my making sure
that I'm getting some sunshine 

331
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,500
and exercise like, it really was
just simplifying things. 

332
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:18,400
Yeah, I think the biggest 
difference for me that I've 

333
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,800
identified is the coping skills 
that I use. 

334
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,200
Now, when I have having a rough 
day or a rough couple of days or

335
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,100
wrath moment, they're either 
keeping me in the same place 

336
00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:29,200
mental health wise, they're 
making me feel a little bit 

337
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,400
better. 
Whereas the coping skills I used

338
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,700
to use, would put me like six 
steps backwards and be like, 

339
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:37,300
leaning on a codependent 
relationship, self-harming 

340
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:39,600
suicide, attempts engaging in 
suicidal. 

341
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:42,900
Creation, which just became a 
more condition pattern of coping

342
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:44,800
strategy. 
In an extreme way never 

343
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,500
processing through an emotion. 
So just either just staying 

344
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:51,900
where you are not making things.
Worse is a huge thing or if you 

345
00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:54,800
can engaging in those habits 
that will make your life better 

346
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,500
like getting enough sleep. 
Making sure that you're fueling 

347
00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,500
your body, making sure you're 
getting outside, getting 

348
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:01,700
exercise. 
All of those things are simple. 

349
00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:04,800
They are Basics, but they're so 
powerful and maintaining your 

350
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:05,500
mental health. 
Yeah. 

351
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:07,900
It's I think that what you said 
is, absolutely right. 

352
00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:11,700
Which is you forget but the 
Reality is it's so much about 

353
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:13,400
what you don't do. 
Yeah. 

354
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:14,200
Yeah. 
Right. 

355
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,800
I mean, I think when things 
still challenging often is about

356
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,200
the choices that you're making, 
we were saying like, I'm not 

357
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,200
going to engage in that thing 
that I know is adding fuel to 

358
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,599
the fire. 
Yeah, on some level even though 

359
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,000
it, maybe give me momentary 
relief, choosing not to engage 

360
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,400
in that. 
It's almost like it's more about

361
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,600
weeding out and pruning out than
it is about adding it like it's 

362
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,400
just sticking to these sort of 
basic things and saying like 

363
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,500
Okay this is not available for 
me right now. 

364
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,900
Now, yeah, it's like setting 
that boundary yourself and it 

365
00:17:42,908 --> 00:17:44,700
doesn't have to be like, okay, 
I'm going to try one hour 

366
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:48,400
meditation or I am going to do a
silent Retreat like, no need to 

367
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,400
do that the big job so effective
and exhaustible exactly right? 

368
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,200
I mean, it really is that basic,
I think that's such a great 

369
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:56,600
Point. 
People thinking, oh, I need to 

370
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,500
go to some, I need to go to a 
yoga retreat or a meditation. 

371
00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:00,800
Please. 
Do I need to do something 

372
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,400
drastic. 
It's like, no. 

373
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,100
Here are some few things you can
do. 

374
00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:07,100
Don't drink not drinking. 
Drinking is going to make your 

375
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,500
anxiety worse and it's not going
to improve. 

376
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,600
It will give you a momentary 
feeling of relief, and it will 

377
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,900
exacerbate things the next day 
or later, like, there's just the

378
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:20,700
way it works anxiety and they 
talking about it on Tick, Tock 

379
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:26,800
to think, like, it will just add
gasoline to your anxiety fire 

380
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,500
for sure. 
You know, it also will disrupt 

381
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:32,000
your sleep and things like that.
So that whether it's any kind of

382
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,000
substances that give you, sort 
of that momentary relief. 

383
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,900
I call it emotional novocaine. 
Like, it's just really about 

384
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:40,800
staying away from you. 
Ocean and Advocate the things 

385
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,300
that will numb, that the 
challenging feelings 

386
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:47,100
momentarily. 
But end up exacerbating them 

387
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:50,200
because they allow you to kick 
it down the road and avoid it. 

388
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,100
And so the only way through 
anything is just by committing 

389
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:56,300
to it and recognizing like, this
is what I'm going through. 

390
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:59,100
It's hard. 
And my only job is to like stick

391
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:00,700
with the basic and say present 
with us. 

392
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:03,000
Yeah. 
So talk to me about where 

393
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,000
positive psychology fits into 
all of this, was this something 

394
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,200
that you now look back and I 
like I was using these Suppose 

395
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:13,700
or you then realized how 
effective it was and started 

396
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,600
using it with your clients. 
After the fact, when I went to 

397
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,800
Penn, I wasn't working with 
clients. 

398
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,000
I was just purely going to 
graduate school, you know, to 

399
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,700
learn. 
But obviously I always say, it's

400
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:26,700
me search, right? 
And I mean, I don't find me a 

401
00:19:26,708 --> 00:19:29,100
psychologist. 
Who's like, in this field on 

402
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:30,900
some level? 
It's not me search. 

403
00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:36,100
I was I think that I loved this 
idea that I didn't have to 

404
00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:39,400
constantly, sort of be rolling 
around in my own muck to get 

405
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,800
Clean like this idea that's 
absurd psychoanalysis like 

406
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,800
pulling apart all the things and
then it just wasn't really 

407
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,700
working for me and it's 
emotionally exhausting also to 

408
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:50,900
just constantly be in that. 
Mmm. 

409
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,800
Yeah you can start to feel so 
grim and hopeless, you think, oh

410
00:19:55,808 --> 00:19:57,700
my gosh, like how do I even get 
out of this? 

411
00:19:57,700 --> 00:19:59,300
You know, I can't even see the 
light. 

412
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:03,700
But in working from a more 
strength based approach is idea 

413
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:06,500
of believing this possibility 
for you like let's go walk 

414
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:11,000
toward it and small ways every 
day like I'm Marching forward 

415
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,100
toward a better future, at least
I feel better about myself at 

416
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:19,000
least where I had some 
self-respect and I was following

417
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000
through on what I'd said I was 
going to do that is healing in 

418
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,300
and of itself. 
Right? 

419
00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:26,300
Just the erosion for especially 
for people in addiction, like 

420
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:28,300
the erosion of their 
relationship with themselves. 

421
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:31,200
Because every day, they break 
promises with himself every damn

422
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:32,500
day. 
That's all they're doing. 

423
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,800
So in, you know, as you begin to
rebuild that sense of trust with

424
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,400
yourself like okay, It's you 
start to like yourself a little 

425
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:42,900
bit more. 
You start to feel a little bit 

426
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,300
better and what I found for me 
was it the more the better I 

427
00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:48,700
felt about how I was showing up 
every day. 

428
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:51,800
The easier it was for me to 
actually do the healing work, I 

429
00:20:51,808 --> 00:20:54,700
needed to do because I had a 
stronger foundation. 

430
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:57,800
So I found that this 
counterintuitive thing happens 

431
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,200
which was the more I focused on 
what was working and what was 

432
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,900
right and just taking small 
actions to to just feel better. 

433
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:10,800
The easier it was for me to sort
of to actually Like, okay, this 

434
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,300
is what happened. 
And this is, you know, how in 

435
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:17,100
some ways I was wounded or 
things fell apart, and was able 

436
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:21,000
to do some of that, like, I was 
able to handle the grief and 

437
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,800
able to handle my feelings. 
It was just able to handle them 

438
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,400
better because I had a stronger 
Foundation from you start, you 

439
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,800
know, that develops. 
So, you know, I just encourage 

440
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,500
people that this idea that it 
has to be either one or the 

441
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,500
other, like, you've got to pick 
a lane, like that's complete 

442
00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:38,200
nonsense. 
They can do them together. 

443
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:40,500
Think that both approaches 
Complement each other. 

444
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:43,800
So, well, today's episode is 
brought to you by teen 

445
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,300
counseling. 
If you are looking for support 

446
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,900
in your mental health journey 
and aren't sure where to start 

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teen, counseling is for you. 
What it is is better helps 

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branch of therapy specifically 
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therapist within their Network. 
They offered support on things 

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like depression, anxiety, 
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452
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:06,600
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All via talk text and video 

453
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So depending on what level of 

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00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:11,600
support you looking for They're 
able to get you the help that 

455
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,100
you need. 
So, what you're going to do is 

456
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:15,200
you're going to go to teen 
counseling.com. 

457
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,400
She persisted, you are going to 
fill out a quick survey about 

458
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,200
what you were hoping to focus on
in therapy. 

459
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,100
So whether that is stress or 
relationships or depression, 

460
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:26,200
anything and everything, decide 
what you're hoping to focus on 

461
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,700
and we will match with a 
therapist that specializes in 

462
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:30,800
that area from there. 
You can start meeting with a 

463
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,100
therapist and if it's not a 
great fit you can switch 

464
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:35,700
therapist super easily. 
They make a super simple and 

465
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:37,600
seamless. 
So it's an amazing way to get 

466
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,400
support with a really quick 
turnaround. 

467
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:42,100
In time and not have to deal 
with local providers and waiting

468
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:43,600
list and all those kinds of 
things. 

469
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,200
So, if you would like to start 
your therapy Journey, or start 

470
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,200
meeting with a new therapist, 
had to teen counseling.com. 

471
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,600
She persisted again. 
That is teen counseling.com 

472
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,300
says, she persisted to find a 
therapist today. 

473
00:22:55,900 --> 00:22:59,200
What are a couple ways that 
listeners can Implement positive

474
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,000
psychology principles and their 
life? 

475
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,100
Is it like rewiring a thought 
pattern is it certain behaviors 

476
00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:07,200
that you're engaging in? 
You talked about working to not 

477
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,000
break those promises with 
yourself. 

478
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,800
How do Recommend that people 
begin to implement these 

479
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,100
practices. 
That's a great question. 

480
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,200
How do we begin to implement 
these practices? 

481
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,600
One of the things I think that 
positive psychology, well, 

482
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,500
positive psychology to me, 
offered a totally different 

483
00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:25,700
framework of thinking about 
mental health for me, so that I 

484
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:29,700
loved which was like oh we don't
actually have to talk about 

485
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:31,800
ourselves through the lens of 
pathology. 

486
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:34,600
I can actually have a 
conversation about growth and 

487
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,100
development. 
That is you know, a high-level 

488
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:42,200
conversation about Optimal human
functioning and growth and 

489
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,700
development and well-being. 
That's outside of the context of

490
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:48,800
what's not working disease, 
disorders functions, ethology. 

491
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:51,500
So that alone was really 
wonderful. 

492
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:53,900
And I think that one of the 
other things about positive 

493
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:57,700
psychology, sort of implicit in 
the field, is this idea that? 

494
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:59,100
I mean, there's a developmental 
psychologist. 

495
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,100
I'm looking at, you know, 
developmental arcs, right? 

496
00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:04,100
So, but I think, with my 
positive psychology had on, I'm 

497
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:07,500
looking at the possibility of a 
positive are, right? 

498
00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:11,600
I'm like, I'm positive pivot. 
And I think that lens of always,

499
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,300
sort of looking for like we, you
know, how do we make something 

500
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:16,300
better? 
How do we help people thrive or 

501
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:19,100
how do we help people see things
in a way that enhances their 

502
00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:22,000
meaning or, you know, their 
relationships Etc? 

503
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:25,300
That we're always looking at 
something through that lens of 

504
00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:29,400
like, instead of mitigating 
Armada, getting a weakness 

505
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,200
mitigating, some kind of wound, 
it's actually looking at 

506
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,600
enhancing strengths and so that 
approach alone is just more fun.

507
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:42,200
It is just More fun, it really 
is like one of the reasons and 

508
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,400
there's been some interesting 
studies. 

509
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,100
Acacia Park said she was 
actually a getting her doctorate

510
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:50,400
at Penn. 
Wait, Avalon was like, 2005, but

511
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,500
they were doing she, and Marty 
Seligman did a study looking at.

512
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:56,900
It was called something positive
Psychotherapy, and they had 

513
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,600
different treatment groups in 
one of them was a positive 

514
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,100
psychology intervention, 
treatment group is where the 

515
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,000
group of clinically depressed 
people and they had a really 

516
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,100
good outcomes with the positive 
psychology intervention and and 

517
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:10,500
one of the highwomen How does 
this was? 

518
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:13,000
Well, it's just more fun and 
people engage what they wanted 

519
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,700
to do it more. 
Yeah, I am. 

520
00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:17,900
You're giving someone who feels 
a sense of hopelessness. 

521
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:19,200
A sense of hope. 
Right? 

522
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,300
It's like it life and I think 
that was it for me. 

523
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:24,200
This feeling of like this isn't 
it? 

524
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,800
Life can get so much better. 
Yeah. 

525
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:30,700
And that little flicker of light
is what gave me the motivation 

526
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:33,200
to go for it. 
You have to have that, you have 

527
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,600
to see it. 
You had to see the possibility 

528
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,700
and Rick Snyder, hope researcher
called This Way power, right? 

529
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:40,900
You have to see that. 
That it's possible for you to 

530
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,200
overcome these obstacles, if you
don't think it's possible, why 

531
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,200
bother 100%? 
I remember, every single time I 

532
00:25:47,208 --> 00:25:50,200
did DBT, did a lot of times, the
last one was, when it really 

533
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,500
stuck. 
The first thing that they do is 

534
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,000
ask you about your life worth 
living. 

535
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,800
And for me, and so many other 
patients, that's not even 

536
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,000
something that they fathomed. 
This idea of living a life where

537
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,800
again it is worth living where 
suicide isn't a question where 

538
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,500
you have things you look forward
to people aren't thinking about 

539
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:06,700
that. 
I was reading, I don't know if 

540
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:09,200
you've read lost connections by 
Johann Hari, but he talks about 

541
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,900
how When people are really 
depressed, they lose the sense 

542
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,000
of the future. 
They did a study where they 

543
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,100
asked adolescents that were 
highly emotionally. 

544
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:19,800
Distressed one group was 
individuals that were struggling

545
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,400
with anorexia and one group was 
individuals that were struggling

546
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,500
with depression and they were 
reading like a comic book, 

547
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:27,800
they're watching the comic and 
asking, like, how does this 

548
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,200
character feel 10 years from now
and the kids that were 

549
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,500
struggling with anorexia? 
Who were deeply, emotionally 

550
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,400
distressed, we're able to say, 
oh well, he probably feels this 

551
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,600
way, or this is the context and 
the kids that were struggling 

552
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,700
with depression. 
We're not even able to explain 

553
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:44,600
that or fathom it or try and 
contemplate what that would be 

554
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,300
like because they were so 
focused on like the emotional 

555
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:49,600
distress in the present and that
sense the future was just 

556
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,400
completely gone. 
And I think that's something 

557
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,300
that's really true for people 
that are struggling with 

558
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:55,300
depression and anxiety and all 
these things that you lose that 

559
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:57,200
sense of hope you lose that 
sense of the future. 

560
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,500
And so DBT, they always start 
with that. 

561
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:02,200
What is your life worth living 
like, get really detailed about 

562
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,300
it? 
What are your relationships that

563
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:05,800
are in your life? 
How do you feel in those 

564
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,900
relationships? 
What behaviors, do you engage 

565
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:09,300
in? 
How do you feel when you wake up

566
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,600
in the The morning, what is your
schedule look like? 

567
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,600
So you have a goal that you're 
pursuing and you have something 

568
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,200
that you're working towards when
you learn all these skills and 

569
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,200
when you do all this work 
because that's not always clear.

570
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,000
And I think people just think 
like, oh, people are aiming to 

571
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,700
not be depressed or not, be 
anxious or not, be struggling. 

572
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:27,500
I'm for me, that wasn't even a 
goal. 

573
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:29,800
I thought was possible. 
I thought that I was meant to be

574
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,200
depressed for the rest of my 
life and so maybe I was learning

575
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,000
the skills, but what was the 
point? 

576
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,000
Because there wasn't another 
side. 

577
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,400
And so I love that concept of 
providing that hope. 

578
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,300
And really making that positive 
trajectory transparent with the 

579
00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:46,200
client with the patient because 
it's something that's so lost 

580
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,200
and forgotten about for so many 
definitely. 

581
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,300
And I think the other thing that
causes psychology has done, 

582
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:56,500
which has been really important 
in often I think overlooked is 

583
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:58,400
because it gets a lot of flack 
for. 

584
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,600
So it's happy ology, especially 
in what we call business, as 

585
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,400
usual psychology and I say that 
from being on both sides of the 

586
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,900
aisle. 
But I think one of the things 

587
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:13,700
that pause psychology has 
offered is a much broader a much

588
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:16,000
richer. 
Understanding of what well-being

589
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,500
actually is, it's not just, oh, 
I'm happy, it is a whole host of

590
00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:23,900
things that it's about. 
Meaning it's about the quality 

591
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:27,100
of your relationships. 
It's about positive effect, but 

592
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:30,900
it's not just Joy. 
It's also curiosity Amusement 

593
00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:33,800
piece. 
Hope like there's so many other 

594
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,900
positive emotions to explore 
outside of just feeling happy. 

595
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:40,900
Yeah, yeah, right. 
Understanding the role of 

596
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,100
setting a goal achievement 
having a dream taking steps 

597
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,900
towards that, and then also 
engagement in flow and the role 

598
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:51,700
of what we call Peak Human 
Experience in a life, well-lived

599
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:53,800
or someone that self-reports 
very high. 

600
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,000
And so, and life satisfaction is
there deeply engaged in flow 

601
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,800
activities? 
So it's just given us a much 

602
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,600
richer. 
Understanding of what well-being

603
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,200
actually is. 
And I think that has been 

604
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,900
enormously helpful in the work, 
I do with my clients because I 

605
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:11,400
think that people feel Like I 
just didn't get that happy gene 

606
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,600
or whatever. 
It's like who cares there are so

607
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,300
many other avenues towards a 
meaningful, Rich, wonderful, 

608
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:22,700
adventurous life and it doesn't 
necessarily have to do with your

609
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,600
own temperament, you know. 
Yeah, I love that. 

610
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,600
Especially because for so many 
people, the goal is being happy,

611
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,900
the coal stop being sad. 
But if you are so far from that 

612
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:34,600
goal and it feels so 
unattainable to not have that 

613
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,500
broken down into having these 
passions and feeling like 

614
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:40,800
everyday. 
You have Level of satisfaction 

615
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,400
and feeling emotions Beyond just
Joy or quote unquote happiness. 

616
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,100
I think that is very motivating 
and gives a lot of hope to get a

617
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:51,400
lot more clear on this abstract 
thing that is being happy and it

618
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,100
makes it a lot easier, not even 
easier. 

619
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:57,200
But for me, someone who hates 
and certainty, it feels a lot 

620
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,800
better to be able to have these 
goals that you're working 

621
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,500
towards rather, than this 
abstract thing being like, I 

622
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:05,300
want to engage in Hobbies, I 
don't know. 

623
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:08,900
Five out of seven days a week or
I want to communicate and be 

624
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:10,800
connected. 
And relationships that make me 

625
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,600
feel supported every day, 
whether that's a text or an 

626
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,200
email, those goals feel so much 
more achievable, and attainable 

627
00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:20,200
than this like abstract. 
Oh, I'm going to try and be 

628
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,200
happy. 
Exactly. 

629
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,200
I mean, happiness is something 
that it's sort of a byproduct. 

630
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,000
It's not, it's not the goal 
itself, it's the byproduct of 

631
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,000
the journey and I think more. 
So, you know, the goal I love 

632
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,500
Barbara, frederickson's research
on positive emotions but you 

633
00:30:32,508 --> 00:30:35,000
know she talks about love as 
being the master of positive 

634
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,800
emotion and heard understanding.
And definition of Love Is That 

635
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,400
we are experiencing love. 
Anytime we're sharing a positive

636
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,900
emotion with someone. 
We're experiencing love so you 

637
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:48,900
and I geeking out about this 
topic, which we love so much. 

638
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:50,600
We're both interested in it, 
right? 

639
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,900
We're both at deeply engaged in 
this conversation. 

640
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:55,600
We're having a moment of Love 
Like that's what this is. 

641
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:58,800
My neurons are firing and 
mirroring yours. 

642
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,000
Like that's what's happening. 
Biologically, even though we're 

643
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,000
on Zoom same, it's still 
happening happen over the phone.

644
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:06,200
I think that really to me is the
goal. 

645
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,000
It's like, can we can we amplify
the amount of Love that we 

646
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,100
experience in our life and I 
mean that broadly like sharing 

647
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:16,800
an interest sharing curiosity 
sharing a moment of awe like 

648
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,000
going to a football game and 
everyone whatever singing 

649
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,800
together that's all doing the 
wave, it doesn't have to be done

650
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,800
in a religious context, sharing 
a moment of Joy, sharing a 

651
00:31:26,808 --> 00:31:30,100
moment of comfort of care, 
compassion, whatever it is. 

652
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,600
That's experience of love. 
It love is truly ubiquitous it's

653
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,600
available all over the place for
all of us all the time. 

654
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:41,000
And when thinking about like if 
my All is to enhance and 

655
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,000
amplify. 
The amount of love that I'm 

656
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,900
experiencing in life and feel 
that my life is Meaningful to me

657
00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:50,900
and a part of something bigger 
than me. 

658
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:55,300
That my life is valuable to 
others in some capacity that my 

659
00:31:55,300 --> 00:31:58,800
existence for this brief little 
blip on this planet matters and 

660
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,500
then I think like you're on your
way to living a pretty amazing 

661
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:02,600
life. 
You know. 

662
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,800
It's really just like the word 
happiness is sort of made this 

663
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,900
also murky. 
I think positive psychology is 

664
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:11,600
done us. 
Absolute service and really 

665
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,800
making this so much more 
sophisticated the way that we 

666
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,600
talk about what well-being 
really is, you know, what is the

667
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,500
good life? 
How do we understand this? 

668
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:23,000
How do we think about it? 
Using the scientific method to 

669
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,300
question it? 
Poke holes ask questions all of 

670
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:27,800
the above but I think it gives 
you a totally different lens in 

671
00:32:27,808 --> 00:32:31,000
which to think about this. 
It's not the sort of very in 

672
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,000
some way infantile dichotomy 
between like sad or happy. 

673
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,100
Yeah. 
Yeah and it's so much more 

674
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:39,300
nuanced. 
You mentioned happy. 

675
00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:42,800
And positive psychology 
obviously has become quite the 

676
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,200
buzz word and Buzz concept. 
What are some things that you 

677
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,700
wish people knew that you could 
debunk these myths that are 

678
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:50,600
floating around where you're 
like. 

679
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,300
This is just so not with 
positive psychology is we gotta 

680
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:56,100
stop talking about it this way. 
What are some things that come 

681
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:59,500
to mind? 
And boy I think there's still 

682
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:02,200
this lingering. 
It's really interesting. 

683
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,700
Why positive psychology has 
become such a lightning rod, it 

684
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:09,500
was from the beginning like the 
idea that we're studying Well, 

685
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:14,100
being makes people angry. 
Yeah, 300 me, but it's so weird.

686
00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:16,700
Yeah. 
I mean, when I was at seriously,

687
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:19,200
when I was at Columbia, I wrote 
a paper on a favor. 

688
00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:22,900
The, by the way it was Journal 
article, you know, it was in one

689
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:24,700
of these like handbooks or 
whatever it was a white paper 

690
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:27,500
that I'd written with a 
professor at the time. 

691
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:31,100
And it was on positive 
psychology and developmental 

692
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:34,200
psychology. 
And I had, in my mind, been very

693
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,000
balanced about the holes in 
positive psychology, from a 

694
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,800
developmental perspective and 
what like what it off Is what it

695
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,700
doesn't, what? 
They focus on what they have and

696
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:43,600
etcetera. 
So it to me, it was a fairly 

697
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,200
measured and balance. 
However, I remember, my 

698
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,200
professor was not a fan of the 
whole positive psychology world.

699
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,200
I would tell people Sotto voce 
that I had, I had a degree in 

700
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,200
positive psychology when I got 
to Columbia at for my doctorate 

701
00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:01,600
but and by the way, I love the 
pain program is so phenomenal. 

702
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,900
And I've taught there and it's 
just, it's a really rich and 

703
00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:07,800
wonderful learning is one of the
richest learning environment 

704
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,000
I've ever had. 
The fun of being a part of, but 

705
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:16,300
in any case, I wrote this 
article and the feedback from my

706
00:34:16,300 --> 00:34:20,800
professor was like you have to 
stop letting them tell you like 

707
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,600
what you believe you need to 
think for yourself. 

708
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,600
And that's why she was so upset 
that I didn't go this the rate 

709
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,800
them and that it wasn't a 
scathing review of positive 

710
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,800
psychology. 
And anyway, I ended up removing 

711
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,199
my knee, I wrote with her what 
she wanted, and then at the end 

712
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,199
I said, I'm so sorry. 
But I'm going to remove my name 

713
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,500
from this because I don't 
believe what we're publishing. 

714
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:41,900
This is not What I believe in 
and she was so upset about this 

715
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,100
and it was such a funny reaction
and I felt like that was always 

716
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:48,900
kind of dare this feeling of 
like you study happiness, and 

717
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:51,900
that's not important. 
What's important is truly, you 

718
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:57,300
know, people are suffering 
people have real problems and 

719
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:00,700
you want to focus on optimizing.
Someone's well-being like that 

720
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:04,400
is frivolous like, that really 
was the party line for sure. 

721
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:07,100
Definitely. 
If you know, in the same way, 

722
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:10,000
you know and I think this makes 
sense because like Psychology 

723
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,200
kind of grew out of in some way 
mimicking, the medical model 

724
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,200
same idea really? 
Curing cancer is more important 

725
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,900
than, you know, helping someone 
become me be more fit. 

726
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,800
I we have this hierarchy of 
what's more important, right? 

727
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,200
What's, what is more urgent? 
And there's valid reasons for 

728
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,500
that. 
But it is so fascinating to me 

729
00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:32,300
how agitated it made people that
like people were actually 

730
00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:35,500
interested in studying what 
makes life worth living like 

731
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,000
yeah. 
Like that's offensive it was so 

732
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,300
interesting. 
So Why people get so upset and 

733
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:44,200
then I find this other sort of 
bit so the lingering of that 

734
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,200
like that's been going on since 
what I really 2000s then I would

735
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,400
say the newer version of that is
is like oh I'll just toxic 

736
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,200
positivity. 
Yeah right I take umbrage with 

737
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,000
this. 
Toxic positivity is not 

738
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,900
positivity. 
Its denial. 

739
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,500
Yeah, it's invalidation. 
I did an episode on that with a 

740
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:05,500
woman that wrote but it was 
called toxic positivity at the 

741
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:09,600
hospital Whitney good men. 
And she was like, no, it's It's 

742
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,800
not positivity, its 
invalidation. 

743
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,100
It's like an inability to feel 
these emotions to process them. 

744
00:36:15,100 --> 00:36:17,500
It's distraction, it's a 
pressing these emotions. 

745
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,500
They're two different things. 
Right. 

746
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:22,400
And so I haven't heard that 
term, it's invalidation, but 

747
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,500
that is exactly right. 
It's using the language of 

748
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:28,700
positivity, but it's a 
completely different Arena. 

749
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,000
Yeah. 
Maladaptive coping mechanism. 

750
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:35,900
That's what it is. 
So I get asked this a lot about 

751
00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:38,500
what toxic positivity and like 
don't you think that we're all 

752
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:40,300
obsessed with me? 
Positive all the time. 

753
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,400
I like, oh, seriously, like take
a look at the landscape. 

754
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,400
You think everyone's obsessed 
with being positive? 

755
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,400
Like I think it's not really the
opposite. 

756
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,500
Yeah. 
I think not like know, most 

757
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:52,600
people we have a negativity 
bias. 

758
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,000
At the way, our brains are 
wired. 

759
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,800
We attend to, you know, negative
emotions are louder and stronger

760
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,900
for a good reason. 
We have to offset that 

761
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:04,400
negativity bias with a higher 
ratio of positive emotions. 

762
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,500
Even people with clinical 
depression, feel more positive 

763
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:10,600
effect than that. 
Of effect truly. 

764
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:16,100
So, you know, I think this is 
like gross reduction of the 

765
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:20,100
actual science, and it sort of 
makes positive psychology again.

766
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:23,300
It's like trying to put us in 
this like Lindsay unimportant 

767
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:26,100
box and I'm like, I'm sorry. 
Yeah. 

768
00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:29,800
What is more important than 
actually having a high-level 

769
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,400
conversation about what is the 
good life? 

770
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,800
How to get there? 
Like, Really Brave down? 

771
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,400
Making it clear? 
Accessible, is what we, just You

772
00:37:39,408 --> 00:37:43,600
know, Scholars theologians 
philosophers, great, thinkers 

773
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,300
from time. 
Immemorial had been asking this 

774
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:49,300
question, right? 
I've been, you know, wrestling 

775
00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:52,600
with this question. 
So I think it's deeply important

776
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,400
and I love that. 
Some really brilliant mind are 

777
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,800
out there and and engaging in 
research that for the first time

778
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,900
in a long time. 
And this is a real shift in like

779
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:06,700
the late 90s and the early 
2000s, where research dollars 

780
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:09,200
are actually being put into like
let's study why? 

781
00:38:09,300 --> 00:38:11,500
Do we have positive emotions. 
What's the point? 

782
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:13,800
What do they do? 
Self-report is high in life 

783
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,200
satisfaction? 
What are they doing? 

784
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,800
That other people are not like 
these are critical questions, 

785
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,200
they're not unimportant, they're
deeply important. 

786
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,500
So there's this sort of Hangover
of, you know, you just want to 

787
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:28,300
focus on, you know, positivity 
and you don't want to tend to 

788
00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:33,100
reality like no, no, you know, 
in the immortal words of Scott, 

789
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,700
Peck, mental health is a 
commitment to reality at all 

790
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:39,600
costs. 
So, yeah, we are, we are Getting

791
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,800
with the premise that to be well
means that we have to live in 

792
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,500
reality nor actually attending 
to the demands of reality. 

793
00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:49,600
Yeah, I just think about the 
number of tick tocks, we 

794
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,800
podcasts and articles. 
I see like these successful 

795
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,800
people are doing this or these 
top-earning people are doing 

796
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,000
this in their lives and it 
almost makes me think that like 

797
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,200
so many people do struggle to 
reach happiness or feel 

798
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,800
satisfied, or feel successful. 
From a mental health perspective

799
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,400
that it's almost like coming at 
it from a scientific lens and 

800
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,000
really breaking down how to get 
there. 

801
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,500
People are like, no. 
Oh I should have figured it out 

802
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:13,100
like no that can't be right 
because if it was that simple 

803
00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:15,300
and straightforward than I would
have already been able to do 

804
00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:17,600
that and it's so interesting 
that that's the reaction. 

805
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,700
I think it has something to do 
with people making the 

806
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:23,000
assumption that what people are 
trying to say is like I'm doing 

807
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,800
life better than you. 
Yeah, you know I'm living more 

808
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:30,300
more elevated or more evolved 
than you are and that is not the

809
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:32,800
point. 
In fact, if you actually you 

810
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,400
know engage with the literature 
and positive psychology, one 

811
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,800
thing that you will know very 
well is there are Big biases, 

812
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,000
and heuristics of the brain, and
if you don't understand what 

813
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,300
they are, you can get yourself 
in big trouble, right? 

814
00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:51,800
We have this rule of the brain, 
you know, this heuristic of 

815
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:55,300
hedonic adaptation, which is 
that the human brain, the human 

816
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:58,800
mind will adapt to the good, the
bad, the ugly. 

817
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,300
Right? 
It will adapt. 

818
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:02,200
We are adaptable. 
Which is awesome. 

819
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:03,800
Thank goodness, that we are 
right. 

820
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,700
It's amazing. 
The - hard things that we can 

821
00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:10,300
adapt to and tolerate. 
And Continue to move forward 

822
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:14,400
with. 
And on the other side of that we

823
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,900
also adapt to things being 
awesome. 

824
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:19,300
Okay. 
We need to understand this 

825
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:22,300
because if you don't understand 
this but you will be mystified 

826
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,800
by the fact that you keep 
achieving all of these things 

827
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,500
and yet you're still not happy. 
Why is that? 

828
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:31,400
Oh, because it becomes The New 
Normal. 

829
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,500
It becomes not exciting anymore.
Yeah, right. 

830
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:37,800
So you then you have to have 
strategies of like, okay, this 

831
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,700
is the way my brain operate. 
If there is a rule book for how 

832
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:43,000
my brain operates here, it is. 
Okay. 

833
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:48,200
Noted now can I knowing this 
very important fact about my 

834
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,500
brain? 
Can I come up with ways to 

835
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:55,000
manage this and one very useful 
way to manage. 

836
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,700
This is when I'm feeling down to
moralize defeated whatever. 

837
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:03,600
You know what I use. 
I use my past self. 

838
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,000
My past self is my absolute best
friend because, you know, what, 

839
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,400
Sasha, ten years ago would say 
about Like the failure I'm 

840
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,500
feeling today, she would be 
like, oh my gosh, you're upset 

841
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:18,800
about this? 
Yeah, it's amazing. 

842
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,400
Look what you accomplished. 
I'm so proud of you. 

843
00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:26,700
Yeah, truly the me 10 years ago,
I'm wearing my pH, my friend 

844
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:30,300
made this for me, it says, pH 
done, but I would never gave it 

845
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:33,100
to me, but like that was a 
dream. 

846
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:37,100
Ten years ago, I was like in it.
I was in my doctorate chewing 

847
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:40,700
glass. 
Meringue, right? 

848
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,800
So my ten years ago self is like
woman, your kids are awesome. 

849
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:50,700
Here's that you couldn't figure,
you know, you glue the camp 

850
00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:53,400
registration, you didn't get 
them into the camp, he wanted to

851
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,400
get into which a feeling 
terrible, whatever. 

852
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:56,900
Right. 
Whatever the the drama of the 

853
00:41:56,900 --> 00:42:00,100
day myself, 10 years ago is 
lycos please. 

854
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,600
Yeah, right. 
Like what you've done is 

855
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,900
incredible. 
So looking at the game and using

856
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:09,100
my past self as that reference 
point of like she's so proud. 

857
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,100
Oh my gosh. 
My 22 year old self is literally

858
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:16,300
like, she's losing her mind. 
She can't believe what we've 

859
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:18,400
been able to do. 
None of this thing possible to 

860
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,400
her, right? 
So, but when I'm looking at, 

861
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,200
from the vantage, point of I'm 
now 43 and I'm and I'm in my 43 

862
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,200
year-old self, I can get all in 
despair about all sorts of 

863
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,200
stuff. 
If there was one thing, you 

864
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,300
wish, the general public knew 
from either your developmental 

865
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,400
psychology World positive 
psychology that you think, would

866
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,700
be really beneficial to put 
things in perspective or just 

867
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:42,200
kind of Understand about how we 
function that most people aren't

868
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,100
aware of what would it be? 
I think the other one that I 

869
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:47,200
wish that everyone really 
understood. 

870
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,300
Like, I mean, understood to the 
point where I was like yeah I 

871
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,500
you know it was I taught 
kindergarten every app on my 

872
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:55,500
sandwich away. 
You understood things from day. 

873
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,800
One is what we call the 
availability heuristic which 

874
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,400
means that you are always going 
to reference yourself to the 

875
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,700
most proximal example. 
What do I mean by this? 

876
00:43:08,100 --> 00:43:12,300
I mean that At this is like past
self versus now self, right? 

877
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,400
You're always going to reference
yourself according to your peer 

878
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,900
group. 
So as you become more, skillful 

879
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:23,200
at something, like, let's say, 
I'm not a musician at all, but 

880
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,000
let's say you're somewhere my 
brother and you don't. 

881
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,800
And, you know, when you're 
little and you're in third grade

882
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,600
and you're comparing yourself to
like the other kids that are in 

883
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,800
your little teachers recital 
group, and then You know, you 

884
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,200
get pretty good and you then 
start playing in a local like 

885
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,100
children Symphony and then you 
move up to chair one and then 

886
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:50,000
and so on and so forth or first 
chair whatever it's called, 

887
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:52,200
okay? 
And as you become better and 

888
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,200
better and better guess what? 
So your peers. 

889
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,000
Yeah because you get picked for 
some Elite thing and so did 

890
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,300
those other people. 
So you are no longer comparing 

891
00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:03,800
yourself to like little Susie 
who was playing violin with you.

892
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,300
In third grade that you are much
more skillful, the violin that 

893
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:09,400
she is now. 
They are not comparing Stuff to 

894
00:44:09,408 --> 00:44:11,900
her anymore. 
You're comparing yourself to the

895
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:15,300
other first chair. 
So, as you increase your skill 

896
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:18,500
set in anything, your peer 
group, also increases its skill 

897
00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:21,400
set, that's the way it works. 
So you're never going to feel 

898
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,300
like you've arrived, you're 
never going to feel like you're 

899
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,000
good enough. 
You're never ever going to feel 

900
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:29,700
the kind of confidence that you 
think you will feel if you 

901
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:33,400
accomplish something. 
Wow, like you are always 

902
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,900
referencing yourself based on 
that group. 

903
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:40,400
So, if you just know this from 
the beginning, you know, And I 

904
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,700
remember the revealing story, I 
was at Penn for some meeting. 

905
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:48,000
This is maybe five years ago or 
longer than that, but I already 

906
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,000
finished my doctorate and I was 
at a meeting at Penn. 

907
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,600
And there was like, amazing 
people, Angela Duckworth and 

908
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:56,500
Marty Seligman, and the number 
of other incredible Scholars. 

909
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,800
I'm sitting at the table and you
know what? 

910
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:04,100
I'm feeling like a peanut. 
Yeah, I feel like a total key on

911
00:45:04,100 --> 00:45:07,600
compared to these guys and 
normally in an environment like 

912
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,700
that I would be so jazzed. 
I'm learning so much and I mean,

913
00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:13,200
just listening to what they're 
working on, it would be so fun. 

914
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,800
Anyway, came home, my shoulders 
are slumped and I my husband's 

915
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,300
like, what's going on, why are 
you so down? 

916
00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:21,000
But you were just with all these
amazing people and I was like 

917
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:25,000
I'll never be as you know, 
researcher like Angela and my 

918
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,900
husband's like, oh my gosh, like
seriously, he's like, I think 

919
00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:31,500
you just finished a doctor at 
that just like pronounce that 

920
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:32,400
you are an expert? 
Like yeah. 

921
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,000
But not like her. 
Right. 

922
00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:36,600
So you know what I mean? 
And then you sort of have a 

923
00:45:36,607 --> 00:45:39,100
moment where you're like, oh my 
gosh, shoulda had a V-8, right? 

924
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,300
That's what I'm doing. 
Is I'm making my comparison 

925
00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:45,200
group, insane. 
The comparison group is like, is

926
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,600
Angela Duckworth, right? 
It's so unrealistic. 

927
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,800
And, and she's such a phenomenal
human being. 

928
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,700
I just like really respect her 
so much, but it just goes to 

929
00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:58,200
show that, you know, in my 
fantasy of like oh when you 

930
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,600
finish your doctor, you're going
to feel really awesome. 

931
00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:03,200
All the touch waiting with so 
many people that just finished 

932
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,800
their doctorates as well. 
Correct, that's right. 

933
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,100
All of a sudden you're like, 
nope, this is now New Normal. 

934
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,400
We've reached the Baseline. 
If you are still feeling like, 

935
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,500
you know, gosh my comparison 
group is so competitive or so 

936
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,500
amazing, right? 
Yeah, that's a good thing. 

937
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:22,900
It means that you're growing and
you're becoming more skillful 

938
00:46:22,900 --> 00:46:25,800
and becoming in developing more 
Mastery and whatever Arena 

939
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,300
you're in and that's a wonderful
thing. 

940
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,800
But you just have to own that 
it's not going to feel 

941
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,600
physically. 
So I'm going to emotionally feel

942
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,300
as good as you imagined it was 
going to feel, but if you can 

943
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:39,100
manage your mind around it and 
recognize what's happening. 

944
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,200
Binet. 
You can look at it as a positive

945
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:42,200
thing. 
Like, oh my God, this is 

946
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:43,900
actually pretty exciting. 
Yeah. 

947
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:45,900
Yeah. 
But I wish everyone understood 

948
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:48,000
that this is really for all 
those of you listening. 

949
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,500
If you go look at online and 
just type silver, Medal winner 

950
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:55,600
phases, it's hilarious. 
But yeah, least. 

951
00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:00,100
Happy person on the Olympic 
Podium is always the silver 

952
00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:04,400
medalist. 
Why has the bronze medalist? 

953
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,100
Their reference group is the 
person that got fourth place 

954
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:11,300
that isn't on the Liam. 
You're like man looking pretty 

955
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:14,700
good right now. 
I could have gotten no metal and

956
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:17,300
forgotten for the rest of 
history but I'm going to be in 

957
00:47:17,300 --> 00:47:19,900
the history books. 
I'm on the podium like yeah, 

958
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:21,800
sitting on the bronze medal at 
the Olympics. 

959
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,500
Okay, the silver medalist is not
referencing. 

960
00:47:25,500 --> 00:47:29,600
Like I beat the bronze medalist 
know they're thinking I missed 

961
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,500
out on the gold there. 
Proximal reference point is the 

962
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:36,100
gold medalist and so if you look
at pictures of Olympic podiums 

963
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:40,400
you will see a pattern and it by
and large the Silver metal is 

964
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,000
always pissed. 
This is going to be a tick tock.

965
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,200
This, I would have put pictures 
of all of them over this audio. 

966
00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:49,000
I can't wait to look that up. 
That's so funny. 

967
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,000
So, you know, if you're feeling 
a little bit like that, right, 

968
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,500
you know, like it just never 
feels as good as you think. 

969
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:56,400
It's going to feel like you're 
right on track. 

970
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,600
Yeah, nothing's wrong. 
You know, I wish I think that's 

971
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,000
really what I think. 
Positive psychology is given is 

972
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,200
it's like, it's offered a 
framework for normal 

973
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,300
developmental human challenges 
so that we don't have to put 

974
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:10,800
pologize. 
This like, it's not something 

975
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,300
wrong with you. 
You don't have a, some terrible 

976
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:14,200
imposter syndrome. 
It's like know, your brains 

977
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,100
operating the way your brain is 
supposed to operate. 

978
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,200
I love that. 
Your job is to develop a little 

979
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,900
bit of Mastery over this crazy 
toddler amazing. 

980
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:25,800
And I've never heard that before
about the availability 

981
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,900
heuristic, but it makes so much 
sense. 

982
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:30,600
And it's such a powerful thing 
to remind yourself of and to 

983
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,200
compare yourself to your 
previous self and put those 

984
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,300
things in perspective because 
it's something that is very 

985
00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:38,400
easily. 
Forgotten totally. 

986
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,600
Yeah, Where can people continue 
to consume your content connect 

987
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,400
with you? 
I know you have a course, tell 

988
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,500
listeners where they can consume
everything. 

989
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:54,800
I am on Instagram at dr. 
Sasha Heinz odrs aasha, agin Z 

990
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:57,200
and my website. 
The same dr. 

991
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,400
Sasha heinens.com. 
My team and I are changing 

992
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,000
things up. 
And I'm really excited about 

993
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,200
we've been doing courses. 
Mind your mind courses, and 

994
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,900
changing things up. 
So, starting in October on 

995
00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:13,100
October 1st mind, your mind is 
becoming a monthly or a 

996
00:49:13,107 --> 00:49:15,700
membership Community, which I'm 
so excited about. 

997
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:19,200
So, like sort of concept of a 
self development gem, a personal

998
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,900
development, Jim a place to go 
to implement the work, to 

999
00:49:22,900 --> 00:49:26,300
practice it, to learn the skills
and and to practice them in 

1000
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:29,500
real-time, to have adult study 
hall, have a body double to work

1001
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:33,600
with to a little extra support, 
to do hard things and to tackle 

1002
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,600
things together. 
So, you don't feel so isolated 

1003
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,900
and then tons of experts that 
are coming in to do. 

1004
00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:39,700
Ask me. 
Anything is on Variety of 

1005
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:42,300
topics. 
So I'm really excited about this

1006
00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:44,600
new Endeavor that we're 
launching. 

1007
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,100
It's really just fits what I've 
always wanted it to be, you 

1008
00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:51,400
know, we develop as human beings
from Cradle to grave, it does 

1009
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,700
end. 
So you know, having a community 

1010
00:49:53,700 --> 00:49:56,800
that you can always be a part of
and you can make it more intense

1011
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,400
or less intense, you know, as 
your life can handle at any 

1012
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,400
given time I think is really 
what it's what I've always 

1013
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,300
wanted to create. 
So I'm so excited about that. 

1014
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:09,400
And then also asynchronous 
courses that also have That will

1015
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,800
be a part of the membership but 
you could buy or view or do all 

1016
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,600
the cart as well. 
So yeah, this is very excited 

1017
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,000
about it. 
Awesome. 

1018
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,600
All of that will be in today's 
show notes. 

1019
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,000
Thank you so much for joining 
me. 

1020
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,000
This was just such an amazing 
and insightful conversation that

1021
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,200
I know. 
It's going to help so many 

1022
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,400
listeners. 
Well I just want to applaud you 

1023
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,900
so much. 
I have so much empathy. 

1024
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:33,400
I think you're brilliant. 
What you're doing is so not it's

1025
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,300
just not easy in college. 
I could barely talk about 

1026
00:50:37,300 --> 00:50:41,900
anything. 
Yeah, I was So ashamed of all of

1027
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:46,100
my struggles and I just think 
it's such a beautiful thing that

1028
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:49,900
you are so open and I love the 
way that you talk about it is 

1029
00:50:49,900 --> 00:50:51,900
like it's skill-building cuz 
you're absolutely right. 

1030
00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:53,700
And this is the way we should 
all be talking about it. 

1031
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:55,700
There's nothing shameful about 
learning, how to manage your 

1032
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:57,900
mind. 
Nobody teaches assist, you know?

1033
00:50:57,900 --> 00:51:00,100
Exactly. 
So I love what you're doing. 

1034
00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:03,000
Keep it up. 
Thank you, thank you. 

1035
00:51:03,500 --> 00:51:06,100
Thank you so much for listening 
to this week's episode of she 

1036
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:08,000
persisted. 
If you enjoyed, make sure to 

1037
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,300
share with a friend or family. 
Family member, it really helps 

1038
00:51:10,300 --> 00:51:13,300
out the podcast and if you 
haven't already leave a review 

1039
00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:16,600
on Apple podcasts or Spotify, 
you can also make sure to follow

1040
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,800
along at at she persisted 
podcast on both Instagram and 

1041
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,000
Tick-Tock and check out all the 
bonus resources content and 

1042
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,400
information on my website. 
She persisted podcast.com, 

1043
00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:29,500
thanks for supporting, keep 
persisting and I'll see you next

1044
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:29,900
week.