And at the end of the day, that causes you work because people
will be contacting you about one thing and you have to explain
again and again how you do that and all of this.
It can be kind of messy. I think if you ever hesitate
about sending your website, that's a massive giveaway.
Yeah, I don't really want to look at it.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's crazy, right?
Because we do spend all this time on Instagram curating all
of this stuff and we forget about the website.
And then anytime someone says they want to follow up with the
website, you cringe. So that's the big giveaway.
Yeah, you're. Now listening to Design Curious,
a place where you creative one are here to learn about what it
really is like to be an interior designer.
And I'm your host and mentor, Rebecca Ward.
If you're worried about how to succeed in a creative career, if
you're ready to learn your next steps to become an interior
designer, and if you want the satisfaction of doing something
you love every day, you are in the right place.
Grab a coffee, a notebook, and let's dig into today's episode.
Hello and welcome to episode 174 of Design Curious Podcast.
Today on the podcast we have website designer Elle Kwan.
She works with interior designers whose work deserves
the spotlight, but whose websites are whispering when
they should be commanding the room.
She creates elevated magnetic brands that open doors to bigger
budgets, magazine spreads and the kind of dream clients who
say, here are the keys, go make magic.
Don't we all want that? So I really enjoyed the
conversation today with Elle and I think you will too.
So let's get into it. Hi Elle, welcome to Design
Curious Podcast. It's great to have you here
today. Oh my gosh, thank you so much
for having me. I'm so excited to be here with
you. Yeah, we were just chatting
about how you are actually in Hong Kong and you are in
tomorrow for me, so. I know visiting from the future.
Yeah, yeah. Well, why don't you tell us your
origin story about how you started doing websites and
copywriter for interior designers and maybe even why you
are in Hong Kong? Right, well, I came from a
little place called Dartford, which is in Kent in the UK, can
probably tell from my accent. And I was growing up I thought
it was the most boring place on earth and I really was craving
excitement. After uni I did that thing where
you go travelling and I don't know, I hit upon Asia and I
loved it. But incidentally, I had just
been back to the UK for the summer, and I discovered
numerous things about Dartford that I'd forgotten that are
really interesting. Like, yeah, there's some really
cool stuff. Like 1 is it's home to wild
barricades, right? Which is really weird.
And it said that Bob Dylan might have released those from Carnaby
St. And I don't know why they've
ended up in Dartford, which is like half an hour away from
London, but they have Mick Jagger is from Dartford, from
The Rolling Stones. Henry the Eighth has a house
there, except he had to give it up to one of his wives that he
divorced. So there's loads of history
there. There's loads.
So yeah. So anyway, it's very exciting.
And we moved here almost 20 years ago.
You know, we came for two years just to see how it would be.
And it's been fantastic. I felt like home as soon as I
stepped off the plane. And yeah.
And I was more of a journalist, writer then.
I worked for magazines. Hong Kong is very into luxury
and design, and they love their labels.
So I wrote for a lot of luxury magazines.
But obviously with design as an element, we're talking about
hospitality, high end restaurants or Vista.
Then when I had my babies, I kind of took a bit of time out
and I was actually struggling with parenting.
And I found a a nonprofit that was focused on parenting and
they were looking for someone who could handle all their
content. So I inherited a very old and
clunky blog that I was supposed to take over, and I started
writing for them. And, you know, I was writing in
a similar way that I was for the magazines, which was more
entertainment. And then I realised that this
kind of writing, book writing, was really connected to selling
and sales. And so that's why I learned
copywriting. And you know, in the end we were
in charge of some really big campaigns for them.
They sold courses and certifications and things like
that. And then after eight years of
being with them, you know, my babies were now older, and I
just started thinking I would like to do something that
brought those two worlds together.
And so with the experience I had, it kind of made sense to go
into copywriting, which I did. And I was still frustrated with
web design, but actually web design's really moved forward.
Now a lot of the platforms are drag and drop.
They're no code, they're easy, and I found that I could
actually design alongside writing.
So I just marry that experience now.
I love working with interior designers because they're
creative souls, they're visionaries.
They have a lot to think and say, but they don't necessarily
say it on their websites. And marketing can feel a bit new
as well, so there's plenty of scope there for kind of opening
that up as the channel for interior designers.
And, you know, I love listening to them, and I have such a great
aberration for what they do. I wish I could do it, too.
Yeah. But my design is definitely
online focused rather than in real life.
Yeah, still creative, still creative outlet, but yeah.
I love it, Yeah. I definitely lose myself in the
flow of it. You know, I do love it.
And I, I'm introverted, so I love hunkering in front of my
computer. So yeah.
So how do you find your clients, your design clients?
Do they start out being local or have you just been online
internationally or? Yeah, definitely internationally
contacts through that I had through the magazines back in
the day. It's an interesting community
here because it's new as a field for kind of residential
properties and it can be quite closed as well.
And then obviously it's there's lots of the big corporate
groups. So that's kind of a whole
different arena. And the designers I love working
for are ones who have been in business for a while and they
want to move beyond the referral circle.
Or they're frustrated with referrals not being as steady as
they like and they need another Ave.
And mostly they set up their website and then they feel like
it's embarrassing, but it doesn't reflect the level of
their work. So they're the ones I ultimately
like to help and they are all over the world and I'm well
placed, right? It's great.
The time difference for the UK is great.
America, I can work while you guys are sleeping.
Australia's just a few hours so. Yeah, yeah.
Wow. OK, so let's talk about interior
designers websites then. How should they be working for
them? What should be on the website?
Yeah. So I think really what we've
seen is this evolvement from initially websites being a
portfolio piece or an extension of the portfolio.
And still we see a lot of websites where you click on and
it is just the pictures that scroll through and and very
little else. Sometimes that's all there can
be and I just think it's missing an opportunity because if you
think about people who are interested in hiring interior
designers and the kind of publications that they are
looking at, you know, if we think, I don't know, Elder Core
or something, you have the images.
People fall in love with the images, but the story is just as
important as well. We'd love to hear about what was
used and why it was used and why it was chosen because generally
that's outside of your field of expertise.
And there's almost some romance in there as well.
So that's really handy to have on a website.
And I think that's one big challenge with websites is that
we often write them from our point of view, like what is
happening for us? Like what are the services that
I want to offer? How do I work?
Whereas if you think about it, when you go onto a website, you
are really looking at what's in it for you.
You know, what do I get from this experience?
Do I like this designer? Do I resonate with them above
any other designer who I'm checking out?
And so the website is a fantastic opportunity to really
build that connection and it can work whether you are really
building kind of your authority or you're showing up on
Instagram and doing a good job there.
It can work as an extension. But I also hear from a lot of
designers who are tired with the push from Instagram, always
feeling like they need to be on there and getting DMS from
people who are not really clients but want advice or want
to know where this tile came from, this kind of thing.
The website is much more of a sales vehicle than it is a
marketing vehicle, which Instagram is.
So on a website, you're going to get your more serious shoppers.
They're really narrowing down, hey, who am I going for rather
than DIY? How do I do this kind of topic?
Yeah, that's a good distinction there.
How would a designer kind of help them stand out from another
with their website? I think it's really comes down
to being specific about who you are, how you work, what your
specialism is, and so who you're talking to.
Importantly, it's really easy to well, I feel like interior
designers have a lot of fear about really niching down or,
you know, standing up and saying this is what I do.
You know, I was working with the coloured specialist recently and
to look at her site, you would never know that that was her
specialism. It was kind of bare basics of
what she could do. And when I dug into this love of
colour and this expertise, you know, she was trained in colour,
she'd done certifications in it. It was her real selling point.
So really it's, it's kind of the secret sauce.
What makes you, you and designers are passionate, right?
They don't just do it because, you know, it's hard work to make
this business work. They do it because somebody's
driving them. So it's really tapping into that
kind of desire. Who, who do you want to help?
Why do you want to spend your time doing this?
And what are you best at? Basically, I think once you
cannot really articulate that on your website, it starts to set
you aside from every other designer.
And then of course that works whether you're talking story,
the way you're writing about what you do or the way you're
showing what you do. So you can show your images, but
you can also style your website to convey this message.
You know, whether it's luxury or whether it's country dwellings
that you work on or you know, historical kind of residences,
all of that can be conveyed in the design of the website as
well. Yeah, I'm sure your job is kind
of like our job as a designer because we might have a client
come to us and show us a picture of some, maybe some really clean
and minimalist interior that they like, but their lifestyle
would not match up with that type of style very well.
So we have to coach the client and say, well, you can take some
aspects of that, but it's going to look completely different
than this photo that you're showing us because you live in a
different way. So I'm sure for websites as
well, like a designer might come to you and say here is a
beautiful minimalist website that I love, but it's not really
going to show what they're great at.
Like if it's colour or if it's like maximalism or something
like that. It needs to match up with what
the designer is actually doing is is what I'm hearing you say.
Yeah, I mean, exactly. It really is about tapping into
what makes them distinct and then reflecting it.
It can be scary. That's why it's good to work
with people on it, because you can talk all of this stuff out
when you're just working on that by yourself in your own mind, it
can be difficult to classify, but also if it's scary because
you're making a decision about who you're not choosing to work
with as much as you are who you are choosing to work with.
So I think we always start with what are your business goals?
What do you want to achieve? And that that can feel very
fuzzy at the start. So it's about really clarifying
that as well. OK, so you work with the
designer to kind of help refine their message of what they bring
to the table? Yeah, we and we have some fun
times as well. Like people say it's like fun
Europey. Like I have people laugh and I
have people cry and I have people have lightning bolts.
So, and that's the part I love, and that's the bit that feels,
you know, back to my journalism days when I was interviewing
people, you know, it's really kind of bringing these stories
now. I love that.
Oh, yeah, That would be really helpful, your journalistic
background to just find the story within what the words that
they're saying, Yeah. Yeah.
Or not. Absolutely.
Well, when I was studying writing that one of the
exercises that we had to do was watch the Evening News and
predict what headlines would be the next day, you know, so you
really do get a sense of like, Oh my gosh, that's such great
language, how can I do that? Or Oh my God, you said that
different from any other designer I've heard explain this
process and it's just really pulling it out.
So I always record when we're working and I actually often
speak to clients or US clients. And I asked them about the
designer and I asked them about their experiences because when
we're talking about our website, we are talking about the
designer's message. But like I said before, we also
want to reflect what the potential clients looking for as
well. So using their language is
really useful too. Yeah, great.
So what would be some maybe common mistakes that an interior
designer is doing with their current website before they get
some help from you? I think the main 1 is just
treating it like a portfolio and just not including enough
detail. And a quick way to rectify that
is add some testimonials and even better add a case story.
So we have these amazing images and then just talk about the
kind of before and I call it the before and after archway.
So you basically talk about the before, what was the client
facing? What were they worried about?
And the after what they actually experienced.
And then the archway is have you helped bring that about?
So that's a really simple before and after transformation story.
And you know, we're all hooked on all those design shows.
We love a before and after, right?
And we show that in pictures, but you can show that in words
as well. And then the other main issue is
that people don't think about what they want that website to
do. They often think like, oh, I
need something. I mean, that's reflective of my
work. But they also forget to ask that
something of their client. And that can be something as
simple as like sign up for emails that they might send or
updates if they give talks in the community, this kind of
thing. Or.
It can be the the big one book of consultation or e-mail me
about an inquiry or get started. I don't know why but it seems
designers are shy to include those kind of buttons or calls
to action on their website and they can be totally missing a
lot of the time. And then the other one I love is
just a kind of fleshed out mini bio.
Just why? Why are you doing this work?
What inspires you? Because that kind of connection
really helps you connect with your potential clients.
Anyone that's visiting that site, that doesn't have to be
potential clients. It could be editors, it could be
other people who know people, but they want to look at the
site and know who you are a little bit, not just your work.
Yeah, that's really good. So how often do you need to
redesign your website? Maybe you've had it for five
years or I don't know, maybe even longer.
But you know, it's time for a redesign.
Well, when you look at your site and it doesn't feel like you
anymore, maybe you have evolved your services and your website
still says you do. I don't know this kind of design
and actually you've moved into virtual design, but it doesn't
say. And at the end of the day, that
causes you work because people will be contacting you about one
thing and you have to explain again and again how you don't do
that. And all of this, it can be kind
of messy. I think if you ever hesitate
about sending your website, that's a massive giveaway, yeah.
I don't really want to look at it.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's crazy, right?
Because we do spend all this time on Instagram curating all
of this stuff and we forget about the website.
And then anytime someone says they want to follow up with the
website, you cringe. It's like, Oh no.
So that's the date giveaway. And I think also anytime you're
actively scaling or expanding, you're having additions.
That's a good time. You're adding staff members,
this kind of thing. I think the first.
Few years, you're constantly going back and forth.
What are your offers? How are you working?
You figure out your mistakes, right?
By about year three, you're kind of oh, OK, I'm going to at least
settle on this for a while. So that's a good time as well.
If you've started off with kind of a basic website, but now you
you've found your track, that's a good time too.
OK. And if a designer wants to work
with a website designer like yourself, what are some things
that they should ask about to find the right match for a
designer for them? Absolutely.
One of the big ones is how did they manage the website once
it's done. As I said, when I started with
the nonprofit, I inherited this old website.
It was guarded by a tech guy that I never met, but who is
allocated 30 minutes a month or something like that, that he
would work on that website. And so any technical stuff, it
was just we were powerless, you know, we were held ransomed by
the website. And these days it doesn't have
to be like that, but a lot of that still happens.
So you get handed this website and you have no idea how to
replace pictures or if you are into adding case studies or
before and afters, you don't know how to do it.
And that's really frustrating and that's why it can get out of
date fast. So it pays to look for a
designer who can at least educate you on how you can use
the website. Then the other one is
capability. You know, just what do you want?
If you want a shop, can they do that?
If you are in a time crunch, can they do that?
You know, the basic things like that.
But the big one is try and avoid getting stuck into some kind of
gatekeeping thing where you have to pay for a retainer to get
your website updated because no one wants that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, because yeah, you
might have a new project every couple of months.
You want to be able to update and not have to keep going back
through that retainer and right? I mean, and it's fine if you are
so busy and you're at that stage, you're like, yeah, I just
want to pay someone to do this. But for little tweaks and
changes, go, who wants to like look at a headline and just
think that was me six months ago and now I don't know how to
change this. This person wants me to pay like
a few 1000 bucks for me to just change it, you know, like that
doesn't make any sense. So I think it really pays to to
look and just flexibility, like how well do you resonate?
How well are they going to work to understand you and what
you're trying to achieve? Because it's easy to get like a
cookie cutter website. Yeah, it's not nearly as
effective as something that really does feel like you, that
you're happy to share. Like, it leaves such a burden
off your shoulders when you're like, yeah, look at this.
Yeah, because. You're happy to send it.
Yeah, it's like your partner working in the background.
If you have a great website, it's like telling all the
information, showing all the work and selling yourself to a
potential client while you're sleeping.
It could be, you know, So, yeah, yeah.
Well, the the big questions as well as is are you going to
write the website as well as design it?
Are you going to add search capabilities so you are found in
Google? Those are all great questions as
well. So you know the scope and also
what they expect for you to deliver.
Do you have pictures ready? How many do they need those kind
of practical things to really handy as well how long it's
going to take and how invested you need to be?
And another one I love to ask is how do you keep me updated so
that you can kind of fit that into your schedule as well?
Because no one wants the website to be a huge, big headache for
months on it. Right.
Yeah, it. Shouldn't be.
It shouldn't be. Like in this day and age, it
shouldn't be, but sometimes it can be.
Yeah, OK. Well, you've generously offered
a free 30 minute consult for our listeners and we'll be sure and
provide that link. Can you go over what you might
do in those thirty minutes on the call?
Yeah, absolutely. So I call it the three S
framework because when I work with clients, focus on strategy
first, then story and then the style.
And So what we do on that call, we really look at what's working
for the website and then where it's falling flat and maybe
losing you clients or losing you inquiries because a good website
really should be qualifying your inquiries and increasing them as
well. So we just go through OK, well
strategy, what is your website doing for you right now?
And what do you really want it to be doing?
Why is it not doing that story? What is your website saying
about you and who is it speaking to?
And is that a match for you? Is that what you want?
Is that working? And then style, is this
conveying what you want it to convey?
And then on that call, I normally give 3 to 5 action
points that they can really take away and and just do themselves
to refresh the website a little bit if they want to, so they
come away with something really useful as well.
Yeah, that's wonderful. I think people will definitely
want to take advantage of that. Where can we find you?
Are you? You're on Instagram and you hang
out and I'm sure your website so.
Yeah, my website is the best place I read.
So it's elquan.com. Very easy.
Just myname.com. I am on Instagram and I'm trying
to be better on Instagram. So I'm at I'm at elquan.com, but
I find it a little overwhelming. So I do check my DM.
So the best way to get me on Instagram is to just DM me and
then I can get in touch back with you.
And then the website has everything.
It has a list of my services. It has how to book that website
review and anything else they want to know about me, what I'm
listening to right now. OK, Well, we'll put those links
in the show notes to make sure everybody can find you.
Thank you all for coming on and sharing all of your insight
about website, which is such an important tool for designers to
have and use it well. So thank you for sharing today.
You're so welcome, thank you for having me.
Yeah, it's great talking with you.
All right, so we have Elle's contact information in the show
notes because I know you're going to want to reach out to
her, get your website all spoofed up and ready for your
ideal client. And don't forget we have a lot
of other great things in the show notes and on Spotify, we've
put together some playlist just for you.
So we have different categories depending on if you are a career
shifter or if you're just starting out in interior design
or if you're looking to develop your skills.
So we have some playlists for you.
So you can just cut right to the episodes that are meant going to
speak to you in this time of life.
And so check that out on Spotify.
But of course, you can listen to these podcasts wherever you get
your podcasts, even on YouTube. All right, that's all I have for
you this week. Next week we'll have another
great episode. And until then, stay creative.
Thanks for listening. If you love this episode, please
leave a rating and a review. This helps me reach other
curious creatives like you. If you have a topic request or
would like to contact me, simply head over to my website
ourawarddesign.com or e-mail me at podcast@ourawarddesign.com.