1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:05,040 Hello and welcome to episode 158 of Design Curious Podcast. 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,600 I'm your host and mentor, Rebecca Ward. 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,840 Today on the podcast, we have an interview with Marcy Sagal. 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:13,920 Let me tell you a little bit about her. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,880 Marcy is the founder and principal of MSA Interiors, a 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,040 leading commercial interior design firm specializing in 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,320 multifamily housing, student housing, senior living, 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,600 affordable housing, and other complex commercial projects. 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,920 With over 25 years of industry experience, Marcy has 10 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,200 established herself as a trusted expert in creating innovative, 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,280 functional, and aesthetically compelling spaces that align 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,240 with her client's strategic goals. 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,760 Her expertise extends beyond design to include advisory roles 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,400 for major manufacturers, helping shape product lines that cater 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,160 to evolving market demands. A sought after thought leader, 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,200 Marcy shares her insights through speaking engagements and 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,720 collaborations, highlighting her ability to bridge creativity 18 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,120 with business acumen. As a creative member of the 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,160 Entrepreneurs Organization Baltimore, Marcy embodies 20 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,280 entrepreneurial leadership and innovation. 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,240 Her commitment to excellence, coupled with her passion for 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,160 design has earned her reputation as a trailblazer in the 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,680 commercial interiors industry. I know we don't get a lot of 24 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,360 commercial designers on the podcast, so it was a great 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,720 conversation with Marcy, and I think you're going to like it as 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:29,920 well. So let's get into it. 27 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,680 You're now listening to Design Curious, a place where you, 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,640 Creative One, are here to learn about what it really is like to 29 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,200 be an interior designer. And I'm your host and mentor, 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,400 Rebecca Ward. If you're worried about how to 31 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,440 succeed in a creative career, if you're ready to learn your next 32 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,600 steps to become an interior designer, and if you want the 33 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,680 satisfaction of doing something you love every day, you are in 34 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,840 the right place. Grab a coffee, a notebook, and 35 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,400 let's dig into today's episode. Hi, Mercy, welcome to Design 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,280 Curious Podcast. It's great to have you here 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,400 today. Thank you so much, Rebecca. 38 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,160 I'm excited to be here and talk about what I love the most, 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,120 design. Me too. 40 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,360 I feel like you have a fresh story that we haven't heard a 41 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,320 lot of lately, so I would love to hear how you got into 42 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,840 interior design, your whole path getting in there. 43 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,360 And I know that you are commercial and multi family 44 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,480 designers, so let's hear about it. 45 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,720 Sure. So I have always had a love of 46 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,600 design since I was a little girl. 47 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,280 My mother would have different designers come and work on her 48 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,720 home and I got very involved in the process at a very young age. 49 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,000 I'm the only daughter and my mother continued to include me 50 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,400 in those processes and I grew a passion from a very young age. 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,080 Oh, that's nice of her. And I, of course, went to school 52 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:05,480 and I studied design and also graphics because I think that 53 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,040 the two are very combined when you're thinking about 54 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:14,200 holistically a whole space. And I studied both and was 55 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,120 fortunate enough to have the ability to intern for a number 56 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,920 of different companies. From there, I kind of moved 57 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:26,680 through the process of being a designer and started out doing 58 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:30,000 residential because I always had a love of residential. 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,800 But ultimately I decided that I wanted to be in commercial. 60 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,240 And it's very, very hard for designers to make the transition 61 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,080 from residential to commercial. So that's kind of what I wanted 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,000 to talk about a little bit. Let's get into that. 63 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,520 Again, I still love doing residential and still work on 64 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,440 some very large scale projects, but I have found a passion of 65 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,520 doing commercial design that we feel has a much more residential 66 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,640 feel towards it. When we work on the multi family 67 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,800 projects around the country that we work on, we give it that sort 68 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,320 of more residential home feel. So each space at a very high end 69 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,520 apartment building might have those beautiful TV lounges, 70 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:20,240 great kitchens, fun, different types of amenities and all of 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,480 that is the same thing that you see in residential. 72 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,920 It's just been moved to a commercial level on a much 73 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:33,160 larger scale and we use more commercial finishes, prints in 74 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,640 the fabrics and in the finishes on the walls and just the fire 75 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,680 rated things and different things that we do on a 76 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,240 commercial level. Do you feel limited at all by 77 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:45,600 commercial materials or is there a lot there now? 78 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,920 Did. When I started originally, they 79 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,640 felt like everything was healthcare and bad vinyls. 80 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,760 And now just about every top fabric company is making 81 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:02,120 commercially rated fabric. Even look at just the 82 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,840 residential performance fabrics, we didn't have that and you can 83 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:09,720 use performance fabrics in commercial jobs as long as 84 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:11,360 they're rated with the right ratings. 85 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,640 We have been incredibly fortunate to be in this time 86 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,480 where we have so many different types of commercial fabrics that 87 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,920 are at our fingertips and commercial wallpaper. 88 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,680 Just about any wallpaper company on the higher level 89 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,360 residentially will also make it for you commercially. 90 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,320 So they'll put it on a vinyl. So if it's on a paper, a lot of 91 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,440 them will still put it on a vinyl and you can use that same 92 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,080 book for a commercial space. So it's, again, finding the 93 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,040 materials that feel right, feel super elegant, feel super high 94 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,680 end. Like when you go into a hotel. 95 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,360 We do hotels as well. When you go into a hotel, it has 96 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,520 that sort of residential flavor to it. 97 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,560 Yeah, people are hanging out in the lobby. 98 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,360 They're enjoying the different spaces throughout the hotel. 99 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,760 Each one has its own flavor, its own sort of audience that it's 100 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,240 trying to attract. And that's pretty much what we 101 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,800 do on a commercial level. OK. 102 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,800 So how long have you been doing commercial projects like these? 103 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,360 I have my own company. Why have we been an incredible 104 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,440 team of people for 21 years? And I'll be doing have been 105 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,960 doing this for over 30 years and just never gets old. 106 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,600 I feel invigorated with it all the time and we try to do the 107 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,080 same thing for our team. New materials make it really 108 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,920 exciting all the time, and new furniture and new fixtures and 109 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,280 all the things that come with it. 110 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,240 Yeah. How did you get your business 111 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:39,520 started in the 1st place? You. 112 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,320 I'm sure you're working for someone else initially. 113 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,280 I was working for someone else and then I was asked by someone 114 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:50,360 that I had known for a very long time, since maybe in 9th grade, 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,680 who had a very large project and asked if I could work on his 116 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,120 project. And I said well I'm currently 117 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:58,960 full time working somewhere else. 118 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,160 And he said I am not comfortable with the work that's being done 119 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,760 on my house. And it was a very large house, 120 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:11,400 very large on the water. And he said I really would like 121 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,120 you to come and work on this, even if you have to do it in the 122 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,840 evenings and weekends because I know you're going to know what I 123 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,840 want. I agreed to do it and it was a 124 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:24,840 great project. Very first one under my roof was 125 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,120 featured on a top publication cover inside spreads. 126 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,760 Yeah, that was a big deal. And so I thought, OK, well, this 127 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,720 is sort of giving me a message here. 128 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,360 I think I need to have my own company. 129 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,680 And I come from a family of entrepreneurs, so I wasn't 130 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,840 afraid of it. Also very good with numbers and 131 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,560 very good at business development. 132 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,240 And I thought I can do this. So I put a plan together for 133 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,800 myself and I started and I would say definitely through the 134 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,200 school of Hard Knocks, I learned how to run a company. 135 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,680 And obviously I always tell everyone, learn QuickBooks, 136 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,240 learn accounting. You need to know your numbers. 137 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,600 If you have your own firm, you need to know how numbers work. 138 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,480 I didn't know any of that at the beginning. 139 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,520 You know, we have freight cost, we have tariffs, we have 140 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,200 shipping, receiving installation costs. 141 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,280 We have a million different costs that get added on to jobs. 142 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,680 And I don't think a lot of new people understand how that can 143 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,800 increase the cost to the end user significantly. 144 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,240 And so all of those things need to be looked at. 145 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,799 You need to know what those percentages are off the top of 146 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:42,280 your head and should be able to plug them into a job instantly 147 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,840 as you're putting the numbers together. 148 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:48,200 Yeah, that's a good point. Because even if you hire a 149 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,520 bookkeeper or an accountant in your business, you still have to 150 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,280 be able to interpret the numbers, understand your 151 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,760 margins. You still are the CEO, and so 152 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,360 you have to make all the hard decisions and make sure your 153 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,040 business is profitable. The other people are there to 154 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,200 keep you on track, but you can't get away from the numbers. 155 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,600 Right. You need to know what your 156 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,240 margins are. You need to know what your 157 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,880 profits are. Your margins are you need to 158 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,320 know where you stand amongst other firms in the country and 159 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,480 what those percentages might look like. 160 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,400 It's really just basically learning how to interpret things 161 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,120 and understand and ask the questions. 162 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,360 And the first thing I would tell people is please get a mentor or 163 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,200 a coach or come to someone that's been in the business for 164 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,960 a really long time like yourself, and let somebody help 165 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,480 guide you through the process. Because had I had a coach or a 166 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,960 mentor back then, I wouldn't have made a lot of listening. 167 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,920 And I'd made and learned and still succeeded, obviously. 168 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,520 But I try to explain that just having another person that can 169 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,480 help guide you through some of the processes of what is 170 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,240 expected and where some of the pitfalls may come and where you 171 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,560 may get yourself into trouble with a contract. 172 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,440 Knowing and figuring out how to review any of those contracts 173 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,560 and making sure that they're ironclad and buttoned up and 174 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:14,400 that you have everything spelled out for the client. 175 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,560 And this goes for residential or commercial. 176 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,680 Everything is spelled out in scope of services in a contract 177 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,040 and we put pictures in with all of our furniture and all of our 178 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,560 fabrics so that there's no questions that that's what you 179 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:30,840 picked. We make it really clear and then 180 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,480 we make the client sign off on it. 181 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,760 And we have a whole process that we do internally. 182 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,640 And we have just spent all these years buttoning up all the 183 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,680 processes and making them ironclad. 184 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,600 But when people are starting out, they don't know what a lot 185 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,800 of those pitfalls are and places you can get yourself into 186 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,120 trouble, what you might legally be responsible for, and how to 187 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:57,320 make those problems be less. And so for me, I finally joined 188 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:58,280 an entrepreneurial. Group. 189 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,560 After being in business for a long time and it was a turning 190 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:07,560 point for me, allowed me to have other people that were doing the 191 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:10,560 same thing. And we all similarly have the 192 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:12,880 same types of problems. When you're running a business 193 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,160 and you have employees and you have payroll and you have, you 194 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,280 know, you're giving health insurance, we give profit 195 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,840 sharing as well. All of those things that you 196 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:27,120 have how to document things within your firm and your 197 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,200 employees and basically running a different type of a business 198 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,400 than just being a designer. Being in an entrepreneur group 199 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,080 really helped me to understand, you know, I'm in a forum with 200 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,120 six different people, each one of us in a very different 201 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,560 business, but we all have the same needs and the same 202 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:49,160 processes. One of the guys in my group, he 203 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,760 has 4000 employees and he is a mission and culture expert. 204 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,280 He is fantastic about growing your culture and growing your 205 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,680 team. I have another person who is 206 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,440 just amazing at developing business. 207 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,600 He's about growing relationships with clients and that's how 208 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,560 we've grown our business. We're very relationship based. 209 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,200 We create these very long term relationships with their clients 210 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,440 so that we can continue to develop more work over the 211 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,640 course of time and other people that work there refer you and 212 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,640 it's just always the constant ongoing growing process. 213 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,960 Yeah. I think that's really critical 214 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,560 is to have peers around you that can elevate your business and 215 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:36,400 they have to be in the same industry. 216 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,160 That's what I tried to explain to people, yes, it's very 217 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,560 important to have a designer that can mentor you or to have a 218 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:47,480 coach like yourself to talk to people about what they're doing 219 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:51,400 wrong and how they can correct it and different paths of going 220 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,880 down, growing your company. But other entrepreneurs, anyone 221 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,800 else that you may know can offer all kinds of added expertise. 222 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,760 I read all the time on books on profitability and books on 223 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,880 growth and team orientation and different things to grow that, 224 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:15,000 you know, originally we worked in CAD and now my whole entire 225 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,400 company works in Revit. And so everything that we do is 226 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,480 in Revit. And the reason that it changed 227 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:26,120 from all CAD to all Revit is because we work with very large 228 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,800 architectural firms and they wrote from CAD to Revit. 229 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,040 So we had to go from CAD to Revit. 230 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,520 So I had to invest a lot of money into Revit, into training 231 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,400 for Revit, all of the different years of Revit, because 232 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,080 different architecture firms are working in different years and 233 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,640 you have to work the same year. So we wanted to make sure we 234 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,560 were current with everything, and actually not only current, 235 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:53,400 but even further ahead. And so everyone that walks in 236 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,040 here has learned Revit, even if they're coming right out of 237 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,640 school and they're going to work in it 100% in our company 238 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,200 because that's typically what we're working in now. 239 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,120 And when you're working in Rabbit, there are other add-ons 240 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,440 that you can work in like Enscape. 241 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:16,520 And we work in Enscape all the time so that we can render jobs 242 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,920 in house for our clients because it helps the designers to really 243 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,160 see how each element of the design is coming together in one 244 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,640 space. And you can really start to make 245 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,560 some on the spot decisions when you can see that come together. 246 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,520 That's been a very big change in our industry as well. 247 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,680 So you think that if someone who is interested in going 248 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,160 commercial design, they should definitely look at Revit as 249 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:46,840 their method of? Because it is an ability to see 250 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,920 things in a three-dimensional capacity. 251 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,760 It's very different than CAD, but it has a very superb element 252 00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:00,560 into it that allows you to see it as it's becoming a space. 253 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,280 And so when we take a Revit file from an architecture firm and 254 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:10,600 then we have to space plan it, we can do amazing things and 255 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,600 give them lots and lots of options on the space planning, 256 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,040 but then we can actually kind of take a few of them and really 257 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,480 see what they're going to look like. 258 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,000 Or then just a flat design. It really does help us to see 259 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,720 the whole space as a three-dimensional space. 260 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,120 And that's been the biggest change commercially. 261 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,720 All firms are using it. All of the bigger firms, anyone 262 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,320 working with larger architectural groups are using 263 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,360 it. It's not to say that we don't 264 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:43,360 get CAD projects, but we used to have 100% CAD projects and I'd 265 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,800 say we might have one or 2% now, if even that. 266 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,680 And most of those are renovations. 267 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,440 OK. Nothing new in our industry is 268 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,040 being done in CAD anymore. It's being done in Revit. 269 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,600 So I always tell designers, always learn the tools of the 270 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,320 trade or as many different softwares as you can possibly 271 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,000 handle. Rendering softwares are really 272 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,000 important. It's also important to know 273 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,280 Photoshop so that you can work with that when you're doing 274 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,520 inspirations and layout, you can cut and paste things. 275 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,160 It's the way it is for residential and commercial and 276 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,240 we spend a lot of time. Our inspiration and space 277 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,560 planning is pretty spectacular for clients. 278 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,840 I do help mentor a lot of people in learning how they can present 279 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,880 their ideas better to a client and more accurately, so I think 280 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,520 it's really important for people to know how to use some of that. 281 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:44,120 Software for sure. So you have developed a training 282 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,480 program for Rabbit, right? Yeah, I basically what we're 283 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,120 going to be rolling out, hopefully this will start to 284 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,560 roll out in the next few months. It'll be called Designer Bank. 285 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,120 Basically, it will be learning modules for people to go online 286 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,640 for a very small amount of money and take the beginner, 287 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:10,119 intermediate, and advanced course for 30 minutes each. 288 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,280 That will allow them to learn tools to utilize as a designer. 289 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,839 It's very simple and Revit's very complex. 290 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,800 No one is ever going to know Revit 100% because there's 291 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,520 different aspects of Revit. So the ultimate tool is to be 292 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:31,120 able to utilize it as a designer and to utilize it to grow what 293 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,760 you're presenting to either residential or commercial 294 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,200 designer. And so the tools that we're 295 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,600 going to offer are going to be all kinds of different modules. 296 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,720 We're going to start out with rendering. 297 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,200 Those will be the first ones that we roll out. 298 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,200 And then we're going to roll out with just tips and tricks for 299 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,120 the training. So all kinds of tips and tricks. 300 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:55,960 So we have almost 37 modules that we're going to be rolling 301 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,360 out over the course of the next hopefully six months. 302 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,520 And those modules are all teaching and training tools for 303 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,360 designers. I brought someone in as an 304 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:11,760 intern, they asked if they could intern here and I'm always kind 305 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,080 of hesitant about interns right out of school because each 306 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,560 school prepares people differently. 307 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:23,960 Even with the masters, people are not coming out in the world 308 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,200 knowing exactly what they need tool wise. 309 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,400 So I took a look at her portfolio. 310 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,480 I thought it was good. My first question. 311 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,320 And she went to the University of Wisconsin and I said, do you 312 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,640 know Revit? And she said, yes, as a matter 313 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,640 of fact, we learned it in school. 314 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,360 And I said great, because that's what we work in here. 315 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,120 And so she came in and she was very efficient, Efficient enough 316 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,200 in Revit. And then we gave her some other 317 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,800 tools here in our office. We trained so many people in. 318 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,680 Most people have not been able to work on a job from start to 319 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,640 finish, every aspect of a job. And in our company, we'd like 320 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,760 everyone to know every aspect of a job because that's where you 321 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,320 can see what mistakes could be made, what the production looks 322 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,600 like and overseeing the production and that kind of 323 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,520 thing. So basically what we do is we 324 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,920 took her and the first two weeks I said I want you to learn and 325 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,440 skate so that you can hone in on your rendering skills and will 326 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,760 really help you to sort of evolve your projects. 327 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,280 After three months we thought she was so fantastic we offered 328 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,840 her a full time job. She's been great add on to the 329 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,000 team and everyone loves having her here and she's doing a 330 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,040 fantastic job learning about all of the material selections. 331 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,640 And that's another thing, we'll be doing some modules on 332 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,200 material selections, how those change over time and what 333 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,880 materials are good for what and how to select them. 334 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,760 Everything from Schluter and how you utilize Schluter and 335 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,600 different things that are sort of what we called tricks of the 336 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,440 trade. You know, things that you need 337 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,640 to know to be a really good designer so that the finished 338 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,240 space, either residentially or commercially, comes out looking 339 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,400 the way you want it to look and that it feels very fluid and 340 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,360 refined. I have worked with a lot of 341 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:20,440 manufacturers of the course the last 21 years to help them 342 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,160 create product lines. I worked on some of the original 343 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:29,800 first LVT vinyl planks or vinyl flooring lines or multifamily 344 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,720 apartments. They wanted to know what colors 345 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,600 work for the apartments in different parts of the country. 346 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,600 And so I work with them to make them much more realistic because 347 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,600 the first ones out looked very plasticky and not real. 348 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,200 And we're like, no, they need to look more like their actual 349 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,720 floor, not just a vinyl plank. They need to look like they're 350 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,720 actually wood flooring. We spent a lot of time with a 351 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,600 lot of different manufacturers working on those lines. 352 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,720 The same with tile. I worked on many different tile 353 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,920 with manufacturers and with distributors to help them create 354 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,360 lines in certain price points for multifamily so that we could 355 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,920 get that high end look for not a lot of money. 356 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,320 And the same thing with plumbing manufacturers. 357 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:21,240 So worked with probably 3 or 4 different plumbing manufacturers 358 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,920 to create things that were streamlined and more modern and 359 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,200 less chunky and just sort of more simplistic and refined. 360 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,920 Nice. Yeah, wow. 361 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,600 So that's really great because you could definitely steer where 362 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,200 the trends were lacking, you know because we talked about how 363 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,240 originally you getting into the commercial space, there's a more 364 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,560 limited material options. So this entry are definitely had 365 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,440 a hand in developing that further. 366 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,520 I think working with a lot of different residential companies 367 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:58,200 and watching them roll out their commercial lines and some that 368 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,880 are both because people residentially want much more 369 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,480 sturdier fabrics. They want to know that they're 370 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,720 not going to be able to, you know, stain. 371 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,360 They may want to put a white linen or a beautiful lovely weed 372 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:15,600 that's lighter in color on their couch or chair and they want to 373 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,080 know that it's not going to stain. 374 00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,880 Those were things that people were asking for over and over 375 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,840 again. And so it really was great to 376 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,120 already know what manufacturers were doing those initially and 377 00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:30,200 now we have so many of the resident fabric companies doing 378 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,640 it so. Talking about going from 379 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,400 residential to commercial design, there is a difference I 380 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,960 feel between the clients that you're working, like how you 381 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,560 work with the clients, right? So with single family 382 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,200 residential, you're one-on-one with the homeowners, usually a 383 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,120 couple or something like that, and you're getting into kind of 384 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,520 the psychology of the couple working together and what they 385 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,800 want to see. How does that shift when you get 386 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,040 into multi family, family or commercial spaces? 387 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,320 Great. Question. 388 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,080 So there is a psychology behind it. 389 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,840 We look at it internally as you know you never present anything 390 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,400 you don't like because ultimately it will be selected. 391 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,320 So when we present, we give quite a few options. 392 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,480 I would say a minimum of three in each area, full options, 393 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,960 everything from wall finishes to tile to light fixtures. 394 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:32,160 We give a lot of options. What we do is we say it's like a 395 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,280 team, just like it would be with a homeowner. 396 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,240 We're working with you to develop your space that you own. 397 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,000 So we're working with developers to develop a space that they own 398 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,800 and they may own it for a very, very long time. 399 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,160 It may be a REIT, it may be a family hold, it may be a 400 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,880 generational development team has had apartments for 50 years 401 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,040 and then they keep building them. 402 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,160 We have lots and lots of clients like that. 403 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,440 So whatever we pick needs to have a long shelf life because 404 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,280 in the multi family world, no one wants to spend the money in 405 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,080 three to five years to change everything that you've just put 406 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,960 in there. Changing fabric and pillows, 407 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,400 that's easy. The accessories, that's easy. 408 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,000 Artwork, that's easy. But when you start to get into 409 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,840 tile and flooring and countertops and cabinetry and 410 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,800 millwork, then it starts to get quite expensive for renovating 411 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,600 and giving it a facelift. And we do facelifts a lot for a 412 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,400 lot of different management companies and a lot of different 413 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,440 development companies. We give them a fresh renovation. 414 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,920 They'll tell us what their budget is and then we will work 415 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,480 within that budget or say this is what we can do in that budget 416 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,880 for this amount of money. And we'll add, we give them up a 417 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,480 number way upfront, including for the furniture and 418 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,520 everything. We give them a number to work 419 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,880 with and then they go and get that from the owner of the 420 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,080 particular building if it's a management company. 421 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,520 And then we know this is how much we have to spend. 422 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,920 And if we go over, then we may have to push it into a phase 423 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,920 two. But it's the same thing 424 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,120 literally as residential. We're presenting it to a team of 425 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:16,520 people who are going to own it for a very, very long time. 426 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,760 And so we want their buy in. We want them to understand the 427 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,880 whole concept of why we're designing what we're designing, 428 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,800 but we keep them in mind. What I mean by that is the 429 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,600 market audience is the most important thing that we're going 430 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,760 to be looking at. So if we look at a building and 431 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,960 it's got 10 competitors, we would initially on our end as 432 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,880 designers look at all of the competitors, amenities, spaces 433 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,760 and all of their units and we kind of do a comparison. 434 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,480 This one might be super modern, this one might be mid century 435 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,560 modern, this one might be sort of like eclectic. 436 00:25:55,120 --> 00:26:00,000 We'll put pictures together and we'll put a comparison together 437 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,440 in our presentation to show the client because we don't want to 438 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,880 copy what one of your competitors has. 439 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,720 We want to be better than what they have. 440 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,800 So we'll look at is the audience that will be renting in this 441 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:19,480 space between 30 and 45 or is it going to be between 55 and 70? 442 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,960 Let's say I'm just throwing those ages out based on what 443 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,440 those numbers are. It's we're going to change the 444 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,560 look of what we're doing. That's sort of the most 445 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,720 important thing. But we have to make that 446 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,960 decision as a group. And it's the same thing as with 447 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,000 an individual homeowner or a family. 448 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,840 So, you know, there's probably more people involved like a 449 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,760 board, not. Only do we have the owners in 450 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,200 that meeting. We also have whatever management 451 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,880 group they've hired to lease the property on. 452 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,800 For instance, it could be Greystar, which is a, you know, 453 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,040 one of the largest nationally. They have very distinct list of 454 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,720 what they want in different types of properties. 455 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,040 So we always ask them for that list upfront before we start. 456 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,200 And we've worked with many of the big management companies 457 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,080 around the country and then we work off of what their list is. 458 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,560 So it's a whole team of people and it's pleasing everyone and 459 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,760 it it's definitely different than residential, but the same 460 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,880 outcome. So if you present three options 461 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,200 on everything, how do you get a consensus? 462 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,400 Do you narrow it down to one final like we do? 463 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,440 Project really important. It works really, really well. 464 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,080 So we basically do this giant presentation, do it virtually, 465 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,040 and we basically walk through it with the whole team of people. 466 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,200 What we do initially is we create inspirations for every 467 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,440 area and we do space planning lots and lots and lots of space 468 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,000 options. And so everybody decides what 469 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,560 looks they like and the inspiration as a team, OK, 470 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,480 That's the direction that we end up going in. 471 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,120 And then they pick and choose sometimes combinations of the 472 00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:05,600 space planning that we do. We give little like, you know, 473 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,000 if we did a fireplace, then we put some inspirations into the 474 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,040 fireplace so they can kind of get a direction of where they 475 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,800 want to go. If they're stairs, we might have 476 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,760 some stair railings and types of stairs that we put in the 477 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,720 presentation so they can also pick the look that they want. 478 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,440 It's really interesting as they all come together in a group. 479 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,360 Everyone gets an agreement and you get the buy in, which is 480 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:32,840 what I love and everybody feels like they participated in 481 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,160 building and and planning the project. 482 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,760 So it is a very exciting concept and the way that we get to it is 483 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,360 by everybody agree and and it's fine and we've gotten the 484 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,720 process down quite good after all of this time. 485 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,680 Yeah, I'm sure you must be good at navigating all those 486 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,200 personalities and getting them to have a consensus. 487 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,760 And, and the whole staff here, everybody on the team is really 488 00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:01,160 fantastic at presenting and really showcasing what they're 489 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,520 trying to sell, which is what we're doing and coming up with 490 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,520 everyone on the same page. Nice. 491 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,800 It's remarkable and it's been a great process to learn and watch 492 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,280 everybody grow in their presenting. 493 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,600 The presentation skills grow over the course of time. 494 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,440 You get very comfortable, start to talk about things very 495 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,880 comfortably and it shows. And so I think when we have 496 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,360 newer people, we might have them present like a small portion and 497 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,000 then the senior person on the team would present the overall 498 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,880 larger scale stuff in space planning. 499 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,480 So it it's fun, it's fun to watch. 500 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,640 Please, how big is your team? How many people? 501 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,800 We have 14 people. We're actually in the process of 502 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,120 hiring between two and three more at the moment and majority 503 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,640 of people are designers. We do have purchasing full time 504 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,480 and then we're hiring another purchasing. 505 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,840 We don't really have project managers. 506 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,000 Mary Beth and I tend to do that, but we are going to be looking 507 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,160 at hiring and training some project managers going forward. 508 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,200 We have lots of senior designers, mid level designers 509 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,200 and then of course junior designers. 510 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,840 And is multifamily affected like single family is for the economy 511 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,280 and like trying up and down and all that stuff too, so? 512 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,960 During O 811, I was in one segment of multifamily as a 513 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,640 business owner, and it literally crushed me. 514 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,720 I was fortunate and I swore that I would have five more revenue 515 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,320 streams so that no other economy crush would harm us. 516 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,360 We went way beyond 5. So we do senior living, we do 517 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,240 hospitals, we do stadiums, we do student housing, we do 518 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,080 affordable housing. And we grew every single one of 519 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,480 these arms of our business so that we would not be affected in 520 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,720 a dramatic way if the economy and the interest rates and 521 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,760 everything else were sort of going crazy, which we just 522 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,680 experienced and are still experiencing with furniture and 523 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,080 tariffs and that kind of thing. OK, that was smart. 524 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,480 But that's a lot also to have your team be like, do you have 525 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,000 people who have specialized in like 1 in senior living? 526 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,000 And yeah, OK, because that's a lot to know. 527 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,960 And hospitals, healthcare, those are very specific industries. 528 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,120 So I do have people that just do that and then everyone else 529 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,000 pretty much focuses on all of the other projects. 530 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,600 OK. Yeah, very smart. 531 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,520 OK, great. Well, gosh, this has been so 532 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,600 good and I know people are going to want to reach out to find 533 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,720 those trainings. Where can they find you? 534 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:50,120 We're at msainteriors.com and we will on our website be letting 535 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,080 everyone know when we're launching Designer Bank and it's 536 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,040 going to get a big social media launch as soon as we get them 537 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,360 completed. We're going to go ahead and get 538 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,160 the first ones out and let different people try it. 539 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,600 And if you are a designer that wants to try beta testing and 540 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,600 working on some of our modules, just feel free to shoot me an 541 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,400 e-mail and I'm happy to do that. Still, we'll let you try it and 542 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,640 see what your thoughts are and get some feedback from you. 543 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,800 Great. Thanks, Marcie. 544 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,280 Thank you. Wonderful to talk to you. 545 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,840 Let's stay in touch. I would love that. 546 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,600 Thank you again, I appreciate it. 547 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,320 So go ahead and check out Marcy's information in the show 548 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,040 notes if you'd like to contact her about anything that she said 549 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,040 today. I thought it was just a great 550 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,360 conversation. And also, while you're in the 551 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,120 show notes, check out the other links that we have for you. 552 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,720 There's so many great things, downloads and information about 553 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,000 my design mentor, which is my online mentorship platform. 554 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,040 So go check that out next week, we'll have another great episode 555 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,400 for you. And until then, stay creative. 556 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,120 Thanks for listening. If you love this episode, please 557 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,880 leave a rating and a review. This helps me reach other 558 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,600 curious creatives like you. If you have a topic request or 559 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,920 would like to contact me, simply head over to my website 560 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:25,240 rawarddesign.com or e-mail me at podcast@rawarddesign.com.