Hello and welcome to episode 36 of design.
Curious podcast, I'm your host and Mentor Rebecca Ward today on
the podcast, we have one of my very own coaches Kimberly Selden
which I'm very excited and honored to have her on the
podcast today and I will get into her introduction here in a
minute. But first, I want to remind you
that if you're thinking about a career in interior design, which
is why you're listening to this podcast, then you'll want to
Download the three things. I wish I had known before
starting a career in interior design signing up for that will
put you on the mailing list to make sure that you get each and
every podcast episode to your inbox and any other goodies that
I have along the way you can sign up for that.
Download on my website are award design.com forward slash
podcast. So let me tell you a little bit
about Kimberly. I feel like she barely needs an
introduction. If you haven't yet go and listen
to her. Cast business at design podcast
and you'll just hear so many great episodes on how to run a
wonderful design business that has definitely influenced
myself. But let me tell you that the
Kimberly Selden Design Group is a thriving, interior design firm
with offices in Toronto and Los Angeles parallel to her design
career, Kimberly is an in-demand TV personality having hosted
three of her own shows for HGTV Canada and currently appearing
now Nationally on Cityline City TV in Canada.
Kimberly was also the decorating editor of style at home magazine
for 18 years and then in 2004 to help other designers reach their
full potential can really launched business of design and
online, learning platform offering field-tested, business
training. Today, business of designed has
members from more than 50 countries around the world and
is a trusted resource for design professionals looking to satisfy
clients and run a profitable successful.
Interior design firm. So, without further Ado, let's
talk to Kimberly Selden You're now listening to design, curious
a place where you creative one are here to learn about what it
really is. Like, to be an interior designer
and I'm your host and Mentor Rebecca, Ward, if you're worried
about how to succeed in a creative career, if you're ready
to learn your next steps to become an Interior Designer.
And if you want the satisfaction of doing something you love
every day you are. You are in the right place.
Grab a coffee, a notebook, and let's dig into today's episode.
Hi, Kimberly. Welcome to design carriers
podcast. Hey Rebecca, it's so good to be
here and really nice to see your face.
Yeah. You too.
It's such an honor to have you on the podcast and kind of turn
of events because I've been on yours a couple of times, but now
it's such a privilege to have you on design.
Curious. It's really weird to be the
person being interviewed by Charter.
Yeah. All you have to do is basically
just talk about yourself, so, Well, you are obviously a
successful designer who leads other designers into success
with your program, but I wanted to kind of go back to how it all
started. What made you interested in
interior design in the first place?
Well it's not my first career, it was my second career.
My first career was television and I first, I worked at ABC in
Los Angeles and then I ended up meeting a Canadian.
We got married and moved to Canada.
And I worked at CTV and production so he's worked on TV
shows I loved it and then I don't know.
You know, I found out that I was expecting our first baby and I
thought, you know, TVs a little crazy like the hours are crazy,
the budget, the clients that all of it's a little bit crazy, a
lot of Diva energy in television.
I thought man I'm going to do something easier.
I know I'll study interior design.
That'll be fun. In fact I didn't even know there
was a difference between interior design.
Decorating. So, I signed up for this three
year diploma and when they sent me the list of things, I needed
to buy, one of them was a drafting table.
And I thought, what on Earth do I need a drafting table for, I
just want to go shopping with other people's money, you know,
kind of thing. But it turns out I really love
drafting so high. I actually really sad, I got rid
of my, it was a really pretty vintage drafting board and I
think about it nostalgic Ali from time to time.
I guess nobody needs one anymore but It was just really fun.
Yeah, I had one for school. I like a portable one.
I could set up on a my kitchen table and take it with me if I
needed to. But but, yeah, I don't know that
they really require those anymore.
I wouldn't think so because everything is AutoCAD and so, I
never actually learned how to do AutoCAD but I still think about
those days sitting at the drafting table and how fun that
was. Hmm.
Oh, that's great. Okay, so then after you finished
your certificate program then Did you go to into business for
yourself, right away, or did you work for someone else for a
little while? Well, the plan was to work for
someone else. By the time I graduated from
school, I was pregnant with our second child and I went to
school at evenings and weekends so mostly I was a full-time mom
who was going to school and the plan was to get a job where he
was somebody else. But in 1991 there was a terrible
recession and I went on many job interviews where I was told like
G we would love to hire you but you know there's no work.
There's just no work at all. So I thought I will go into
business for myself. I mean, how hard can it be
really? I was really naive and probably
that's good because I maybe wouldn't have done it.
If I had known how hard it actually was going to be.
Yeah, definitely a challenge. Okay.
So then you did start working and obviously found it a
challenge, right? So that's a sturdy, talk about
some stories where you like, have A baby on your hip or your
holding someone else's baby, right?
And then you're like a home with mine and like all these.
Yeah, I'm paying a babysitter and showing up to client
meetings, and because I'm not charging very much at all.
They're treating me. Like, I'm not worth very much at
all. I'm, so I'm holding their babies
and I'm standing in the kitchen while they make soup and they
just never get around to making decisions and meetings that
should take 15 minutes. We're taking an hour and a half
and you know, and someone smarter would have Stopped the
train wreck. That was my interior design
practice earlier but I just kept thinking it'll get better, you
know, to get them like an eternal optimist, don't worry,
useful learning, it'll get better but it only gets worse
despite because you get bigger clients and more money and then
it gets worse not better, right? If you don't have any guidance
on how to set up your procedures, so did you ever
reach out for coaching or seek out advice from other people?
It's so funny. I signed up for a variety of
Coaching programs, one of them. I remember really.
Well, it was this company here in Santa Monica, a woman named
Bobby Leonard, and she had these tapes, and it would tell you how
to run your business and it was like, I don't know, six hundred
dollars or something which was a lot of money to me back, you
know, 1992 or whatever, they were utterly useless.
In fact, it's the only time I can remember where I actually
ask for my money back and they said no they just said, no not
getting your money back. So So I did a lot of that, I
threw money at it thinking, somebody will tell me how to do
it, but the reality is nobody really did know how to do it and
that was the shocking thing. I had just imagined that
everybody was doing it right. I was doing it wrong but the
truth is we're all doing it wrong.
Did you have like a community of designers locally to you that
you would reach out to or top stories?
Oh my gosh, I'm laughing because there was this one I did.
I had a really great Group of designer friends who are all
doing it badly and not making any money.
And I'll give you a perfect example.
This one friend of mine, I won't say his name, but I just saw him
in Palm Springs. Last week, we went for lunch, he
had this client, he met in his elevator at his condo.
And the guy said, oh, I'm a businessman and I'm flying Here
There and Everywhere I never have time to decorate.
A, my friend said, oh, well, what do you want?
Danny? So I really like to get some
wallpaper in the foyer. And my friend said, well, I'll
do that for you while you're away.
I'll hang the wallpaper and get it done and you'll see how you
like it and then We can do more work together so he did, but the
guy never paid him. He never got any money upfront,
he didn't have a retainer, he didn't have a contract, he just
went and bought some wallpaper and showed it to the guy for a
sec. I said, he liked it.
He told him how much it was going to be.
He said, sure, no problem. So he ordered the paper had to
be installed and then the guy goes didn't wouldn't speak to
him. Although he lived in the same
building. I don't know how so my friend
would that go to his floor and knock on the door?
You know, he wouldn't be home but one day he realized that
they had this Program, where you could put your shoes outside of
your condo door and they would be polished and cleaned and
returned to you. So my friend took his one left
shoe and then a few weeks later, he went back, he took one more
left shoe. He has six left shoes and the
building had to set up these cameras trying to figure out who
the shoe Thief was. Of course, the man knew who it
was, but he couldn't prove it. And, you know, that that's how
people operated like the wild west.
And I'm like, it would just be so much easier if you got paid.
I don't need six left shoes, although it's a funny story,
right? I need the money, maybe.
Yeah. So, what happened next?
You're doing business poorly and not making any money and, and
complaining all the time to anyone, who would listen, my
clients are terrible. They take advantage of me.
They're not nice people. They don't pay their bills, my
Kids are terrible. They take advantage of me they
don't show up when they're supposed to my staff is useless,
they don't do what I need them to do.
They never can anticipate what I mean.
I was just, it was so - and I finally had this friend who said
you are so - I can't stand it anymore.
Here's a phone number call this woman and I literally thought it
was a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
Yeah. But it turns out she was a
business coach. Okay.
And I had no idea why I would call a business coach Coach
because my clients were idiots. My trays were idiots, like what
could a business coach teach me, right?
Anyway, after a very Rocky start, we work together about a
decade and I say, a rocky start because I had so many firm rules
about how the industry worked. It was really hard for her to
get me to change my mind. Nothing I was doing was working
and yet I was very committed to how I was doing it, if that
makes sense. Yeah, and the reason I was
committed to how I Is doing is because all my friends were
doing it the same way and they were all getting their butts
kicked. Hmm.
Every single one of them was making almost no money.
I had low self-esteem, right? But we still thought because
we're all doing it this way. This must be the right way.
Yeah so yeah. So that was an expensive first
couple of years where she's trying to get through to me that
I might want to change some things, you know.
Right. Yeah.
Do you think back during that time that designers were very
transparent with each. Other about their problems.
And what? They were charging, or what they
should be charging, and what them are cover and things like
that. No, not at all.
In fact, it's really funny. The first time I started
sharing, what I was learning from my business coach was
around 2001. And, you know, I just a couple
of things, we had tried were beginning to work and so I
started sharing what we were trying and how it was working.
And I remember the very first Official kind of business of
design event. It was at a carpet supplier,
they did have beautiful, Persian carpets and he had about 100
designers in the room and I decided, I'm going to tell them
the truth. I'm going to tell them how bad
it is and what I've been doing to make it better.
And what is now working? And one of the questions I
asked, was how much do you charge?
People were so offended. They were angry.
I literally had people Heckle me.
I remember going to High Point once and a man yelled that I was
rude and he stood up, and he stormed out of the theater in
front of everybody. Wow.
Because I had asked, what do you charge?
Nobody talked about it. It was embarrassing and
shameful, I guess, I don't know. I don't know why we did talk
about it but nobody talked about it.
Nobody had that information on their website and people were
really even angry that I talked about it.
Well, it is just 2023 or whatever.
Now, when I go somewhere, I said, what do you charge most
people? A lot of people not everybody
but a lot of people just say what they charge.
But took, you know, 20 years of an uphill battle to get people,
to be honest about that, right? Right.
And we've had interior designers for, you know, a long time now,
and it is only now that it's started to become transparent,
which is really unfortunate, well, imagine how wonderful it
would have been to be else. Alcide wolf when nobody knew
what designers did. They didn't know where the
trades were. They didn't know where to buy
fabric. They didn't know where to buy
furniture, they didn't know what anything costs.
So, of course, everything was a secret.
You didn't have to tell anybody anything, you just charged your
thousands and thousands of dollars and the very wealthy,
paid it without asking questions.
Mhm. But you know, circumstances
change and that's just not the way it works anymore, right?
Because I know it was later in the game that g started.
To have a business that worked more smoothly for you and had
procedures and systems. How did you find it with raising
your children with the business? As it was like, did you have a
hard time balancing? It work like I really did.
Yeah, I really really did particularly at the beginning
when I had no systems and procedures, we used to put the
kids in bed at night, you know, 8:00 8:30, whatever it was and
then I would call it the second shift and I would begin the
night shift of working and my husband.
I work for me, too, and of course he wasn't getting paid.
I wasn't billing for any of his hours.
I just kept thinking, if I just try harder, if I work smarter,
if I apply myself, I'll get it done, I'll get it done, I'll get
it done. But the truth is of, if you are
applying the same principles to get yourself out of a problem
that caused the problem you're in trouble, right?
You've got to do it differently. They so the very weird thing
was, as soon as I started getting systems and procedures
that worked, I immediately Mediately could see I had a
little free time. You know, the workday didn't
bleed until the evening. I could go home at 6:00 and I
could have an evening with my family.
So I know that I was a much better.
Mom, once my life changed, and that's why we always say, it
business have designed if you're ready to transform your business
and your life, then do this because that's what happened at,
transform my life. Yeah, made it.
A sustainable career. Yeah.
And something that you can enjoy, actually.
Yeah. I mean, I went from thinking I
had terrible clients and terrible trades to thinking I
have the nicest clients in the whole world and the best trades.
Nothing changed. I always had the same clients
and trades. I just am running a different
business now. So they like working with me.
Mhm. Well, you're a definitely a
Trailblazer trying to get the word out there that like this is
not acceptable way of doing business designers like wake up
and start you know, being Parents start having systems,
and procedures? Was that challenging for you?
Or do you feel like you fell into that kind of a role
naturally? Well, I just started sharing
what was working and that felt very comfortable and very
natural. But I like I said, like in the
early days there was a lot of it was met with a lot of heckling
and anger and it was really shocking to me.
And the but then there were other people were like, oh my
gosh, you're changing my life. Thank you so much.
This is so helpful, but there was a lot of resistance to
change, you know? People had been doing it the way
that I used to do it forever and some people still are of course,
and that's fine if it's working for you, but I've never really
met anyone that's working for that doesn't, you know, the way
that I used to do it anyway, so it began to be gratifying that,
you know, little by little some people changed what they were
doing and they would say like oh wow that work for me to you know
I know you know Leann and Nyla and Calgary and my husband Alan
my love freedom. Both been on the podcast.
A number of times they were fairly early adapters.
In fact I think Leann was one of the first ones 2004.
So people like that would say I did.
I did what you suggested and it worked.
Yeah. And then they would tell a
friend and they would tell a friend and they would tell a
friend and you know, I still think business have design is
the best kept secret in the industry.
You know, we're still not widely known, believe it or not, we
meet designers every day. Who say, where have you been
like, oh my gosh, we've been waiting are Arms, how about
we're here? That's hard to believe.
You haven't heard of. Yeah, so 2004 is when he started
business of design. So it's been almost 20 years
now, right? Thing growing and like, how has
it changed since the beginning? Well, like I said, now when I
say what do you charge? A lot of people.
Just tell us what they charge at the beginning.
Nobody got paid for a consultation.
Everybody went for consultations for free, that was a really hard
one and people would get angry. Oh, I got angry and I'm like,
I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you, what I do.
You don't have to change anything, do whatever you want.
I'm telling you what I do, and it works so much better and if
you want to try it crave, but if you don't, you know, peace be
with you go your own way, man. It's all good.
So I would say that's a huge, huge change.
I would say more. People are starting to realize
that this is a career that you can make a lot of money at where
a lot of the business coaches are still, you know, kind of
aiming so low, you know, they're telling designers that they can
make 30,000 a year. And I think, oh my God, you can
make 30,000 a year working at Starbucks like, yeah, what are
you talking about? The problem with our industry is
that we assume so much risk and liability with the work we do,
right? If I'm assuming, if you work at
Starbucks, is not a lot of risk and liability, you're probably
covered for anything that could go wrong on a star.
But in our job, that's not true. And so you do need to make
money, and I think the last five years, we've even changed our
Focus away from. Come on, you can do it.
You can make some money to like now we're talking like, if
you're bringing home a profit of 100,000, plus you're at the
Starting Gate, that's not the Finish Line anymore.
That's the starting gate. And you know, where me being
designers who are approaching, you know, seven figures in terms
of what they make annually which is As you know, of course I
couldn't have ever dreamed that a 2004.
I didn't ever think that that was possible, but it is, of
course, yeah, yeah. Wow.
That's really great. So I've been a part of business
do design for about five or six years, maybe now, it's hard to
keep track. So I've really benefited from
the systems and procedures that you guys have, and it's really
been a game changer for my business.
But the other thing that I really love that you guys
started was the boss groups, which is your Mastermind groups
and just having it Tight-knit community of designers that know
your business. And it's basically our board of
directors has been really a game changer as well for my business
and you can't imagine doing design without them now and
going forward. Like I think we're lifelong
friends and so do you have a group that's like that or a
mastermind that your belong to? You know what?
I don't hilarious me. I am as, you know, whenever I'm
with your boss group, I'm like, I really wish I were a member
not just And then, I have signed up for so many Mastermind
programs and I paid so much money to be part of groups that
facilitate it, with other business owners.
And I've definitely learned some things, but I've never found the
right Community. Like, I've never learned as much
in those, you know, very expensive programs, as I have
working one-on-one with other designers mmm-hmm.
So I it's a weirdest thing but I wish I was in a boss group.
Yeah. So I'm going to by carelessly
threw. All of you guys.
I just show up from time to time and It's just like awesome.
Yeah, small small fly on the wall and take it all in.
Yeah. Well that's definitely let you
be a part of Arts whenever you want.
That would be great. Thank you but to be fair you
know the boss group works because people like you Rebecca
have you've done the work like you've put in the time to
improve your business and make it work and you're serious about
it's not a job before you you realize that this is a career
here and it could be a thriving career.
So I think that's also important that the beauty boss members are
all ambitious and and that doesn't mean everybody wants to
make a million dollars because, as you know, that is just not
what drives some people, right? Right.
They might have another goal but the group still helps them get
there. So it's a sure we've just been
really fun to watch you guys. I feel like the grandma or
something to hold. So where do you see your career
and business? Of design going forward.
It's so funny. My career.
I had the best year I've ever had last year.
So I'm thrilled about that this year.
I don't think it's on track to be as good as last year for a
variety of reasons, but that's okay.
It'll still be a good year and I could see myself doing this for,
you know, another 10 12, 15 years, who knows?
Like I'm yeah, finally good at it.
So being an interior designers, something I excel out and my
clients like me. So it's not such A challenge
anymore. This is some design.
We're having a real moment where we're thinking about the future,
which is part of the reason we wanted to do the bus groups.
We realized that if the message is going to continue on, it has
to help spread it a little further.
And we need those, you know, mature business owners who can
carry the message to keep carrying the message.
So we're thinking about how we're going to allow business of
design to continue into the future for a long, long time.
I'm that's exciting to think about like yeah, you know, I
really feel like I've said it before, it's so silly.
But this is my calling like interior design is great.
I make money, but I knew the first time I spoke to a group of
interior designers about this is what I was meant to do with my
life. Like I can actually make a
difference in someone's life and in so doing I make a difference
in my own life because I remember don't go back and do
what you used to do. It doesn't work, stay the
course, you know. That's great that to have a
legacy like that you can leave and it's really important.
I think that you're laying the groundwork now so that you don't
have to be as involved in the future if you don't want to be
but the torch still is burning and yeah well when I think about
it we've just barely scratched the surface there.
You know 95% of designers don't make money, don't make enough
and don't even think of themselves as career
professionals. You know, many often it's kind
of a job e. Or people, you know, and that
was certainly one of my challenges.
I had a husband who had a high-paying job and so that
allowed me for a number of years to think.
Well, it doesn't really matter if I don't make money this year,
I'll make money next year. I'll make money the next year
the next year. And really, if you're in
business for yourself, you should make money.
The first year that somebody should have smack me upside the
head and said, don't be an idiot.
You should be making money the first year.
Yeah. And that continues to be a real
challenge for our industry. I agree.
Yeah. See that a lot and you also Oh,
have continued, the TV aspect through all this time right?
You're still going on TV. I know it's so fun.
I every time I'm on, I think house is great.
I can't believe I get paid to do this but that was one of the
things that really helped me get a lot of clients.
I had several of my own TV shows on HGTV Canada and so I didn't
have any trouble getting clients and for some people that's the
hard part, getting a science. And I understand that getting
the classes wasn't hard, keeping the clients was hard, making the
clients happy was So that definitely gave me name
recognition, you know, and a platform.
And today I just have fun. When I'm doing this show, I do
City Line every month, sometimes more and I just teach how to
decorate or how to design something.
I'm doing ceilings this week. How to design ceiling.
So, it's really fun and occasionally, I get a client
from the TV show but mostly not. Most of my clients are bit
higher end, you know, but it's really fun to do.
So I would Encourage everybody, if you can get on a show, it's
just a hoot and you get, you know, you get your hair and your
makeup done and it's fun. It's just yeah.
Do mostly talk to? Yeah.
I wires type of public or is it people wanting to know what
trends are or you just kind of like that basic information or
do you actually get into some real design?
I'm lucky. I actually do get into some real
design. So sitting line is a is the
Canadian version of like the Ellen show.
It's a morning talk show, it's been on the air.
For I'm going to get the wrong number but I think it's been on
the air for like 35 years has been consistently running.
It may be the longest talk show in history.
In fact, that's possible they had multiple hosts but the show
just keeps going and going and going and every Thursday's home
day and there's days a very popular day.
And, you know, we used to take long live callers.
They would phone in and we draw right on the spot and I'm
terrible at drawing, I hated that I do these Bad drawings of
them have to like act. Like that's totally cool.
Now it's a little bit more polished.
We do some pretty big setups and it's live to tape now so they
could stop the tape if they absolutely need to, we need to
change the sassette. So sometimes that happens.
It's been fun to see the evolution of that game.
But ultimately your I've learned if you're ever thinking of doing
television or speaking event, it was really helpful.
Somebody told me only talk to one person.
Talk to your best friend. So whenever I'm Doing something
it's like, as if I'm teaching this to my best friend.
How would I talk exactly to her, okay?
Because some people get very stiff and like, you know, one
might choose a wallpaper and nobody likes that, right?
Yeah. You just have to channel your
bestie and talk to your bestie. This kind of like the podcast,
right? I know you probably interview a
lot of people you don't know. You just act like you're talking
to somebody. You just adore and that comes
across. Yeah.
And do you think those skills? Crossed over to presenting with
clients. Yeah, I'm sure they do, in fact,
our podcasts next week is on improv, Maryland Smith.
She's a second City, alumni. A she is talking about how
improv can improve your your life and your business life.
I think. I think like that is really
helpful. If you have trouble
communicating or thinking on your feet are engaging or
turning a bad situation, around some improv classes can really
be helpful for sure. I think More.
What television did for me. It allowed me to really increase
my rates because I was well known.
Yeah, right. So, people just assumed I knew
what I was doing even though I'm so sorry if you hired me. 25
years ago, I was a disaster and I apologize, I don't.
Well, I think about that sometimes, early on clients who
can't afford me now, but I also provide such a different service
to them early on. And so sometimes I'll have
That's from the past, reach out from like 10 15 years ago and
I'm like, well, I think about doing something else.
Mike? Okay.
Well we have this whole process now because I told me some come
a long way and then oftentimes like okay well that's not the
same type of thing that we used to do and they're just looking
for someone who wants a job e. Yeah, exactly.
That's okay. They'll find somebody there's
lots of people out there. Yeah.
Oh well thanks. So of course, will include all
of the links for business of design and everything in our
show notes. And that's obviously a great
place for designers to go to help Elevate their business.
Any other advice you have for designers or people thinking
about the career is it worthwhile career obviously?
You think it's absolutely a worthwhile career.
I would say get yourself with a tribe of people who are taking
it very seriously and who are making money.
You know, although I love my designer Posse I call them M
they are. They're the worst business
owners and we just spend our time.
Laughing about the kind of stuff that happens to them when they
don't get paid. And it's just oh my gosh, it's
super fun, but not helpful. So get yourself a tribe that is
very serious about design and stick with the winners.
I mean, I know that's terrible because it makes it sound like
someone's a loser. But truthfully stick with the
winners. Yeah well that's great advice.
Thank you so much Kimberly for coming on the podcast today.
It's been great talking with you, so And congratulations on
your podcast, in your mentorship program and everything.
Yeah, I know you've worked really hard to make it all
happen. Thank you.
Yeah. And I mean this well I'll see
you. I don't know what I'm going to
see you, but I'll see you soon. Yeah, for sure, yeah.
All right, sweetie. See you soon?
Oh, my goodness, such a treat to have Kimberly on this podcast.
Such a inspiration for me. And definitely one of my
mentors. So it's great to have her here
so we can hear about her story and what got her into interior
design and how figuring out her own systems and procedures for
her company, has helped influence hundreds and thousands
of designers around the world to have more successful businesses
as well as more satisfying lives as designers.
So, thank you, Kimberly, for that.
And of course you can find all of her information in our show
notes as well as a link to the business of design online
platform. If that's something that you're
interested in, go ahead and sign up for that there.
Don't forget to leave me a rating and review.
I love to hear what you're enjoying about the podcast and
you can connect with me on Instagram at our Ward design.
So stay tuned next week, we've got another great episode for
you, and until then stay creative.
Active. Thanks for listening.
If you loved this episode, please leave a rating and a
review. This helps me reach other
curious. Creatives.
Like you, if you have a topic request or would like to contact
me, simply head over to my website, our Ward design.com or
email me at podcast at our Ward design.com.