Hello and welcome to episode 152 of Design Curious podcast.
I'm your host and mentor Rebecca Ward.
Today on the podcast we have Michelle Lynn and let me tell
you a bit about her. Michelle is president of ML
Interiors group and business coach for interior designers and
also Co founder of Sidemark software.
We had Ben Rutledge on a while back to talk about Sidemark and
he did talk about working with Michelle to create this software
that's specific for designers. And now we have Michelle on the
podcast. So Michelle is the owner of ML
Interior's group, A successful design firm based in Dallas, TX.
Michelle's also the owner and Co founder of Designed for the
Creative Mind, where she teaches interior designers and
decorators the business of running a successful interior
design business. She also hosts a podcast of the
same name and annually holds an Interior Design Business Success
Summit. I know you're going to love
Michelle and you will probably want to go check out her podcast
as well. So let's get into our
conversation today. You're now listening to Design
Curious, the place where you, Creative one, are here to learn
about what it really is like to be an interior designer.
And I'm your host and mentor, Rebecca Ward.
If you're worried about how to succeed in a creative career, if
you're ready to learn your next steps to become an interior
designer, and if you want the satisfaction of doing something
you love every day, you are in the right place.
Grab a coffee, a notebook, and let's dig into today's episode.
Hi, Michelle, welcome. To design curious podcast.
Rebecca, thanks so much for having me.
I'm honored. Yes, and I'm excited to talk
with you that we had to reschedule this interview couple
of times, but here we are and now I get to find out all about
you and your path to interior design and just the great
offerings that you have for designers out there.
So let's start back at the beginning.
How did you become an interior designer?
When did you know? I can think back to junior high
when I my brother and I were home alone after school.
We were latchkey kids and I would make him help me rearrange
your furniture, or I would be insisting to my mom that I
wanted my curtains to match my bedspread or just funny little
nuances like that. So I think that I've always been
inclined, but I never knew that it was something that I could
get paid for. So I went into a completely
different direction. When I got out of college, I
started managing restaurants. And then from managing
restaurants, I was managing like a recruiting firm, placing
accounting and financial professionals.
But the entire time I had friends asking, hey, can you
help me with my house? Can you come over?
I'll make you dinner. Or I would joke that I would
work for wine. So I read a book from Max
Lucado, and I can't remember what it was called, but it was
about pursuing what you loved because what my corporate job
they had sold. And so I was like, OK, God, what
next? And literally, it was like, OK,
here's what people have always been asking you to do.
And by then, I knew that it was a thing.
But Rebecca, you going to laugh at this?
I had zero confidence. I named my company by Michelle
Lynn. OK.
It was by Michelle Lynn because I was going to do home staging,
organizing and redesign. OK, Redesign was a thing back in
the early, like middle 2000s because I didn't have I didn't
even have the confidence to call myself a decorator.
But then I also figured, hey, if home staging, organizing and
redesign doesn't work out, I can do gift baskets, dog walking and
car washing. Anything by Michelle.
By Michelle Loud. I wouldn't have to change my
name. So that's how I got into it.
I truly started doing it was about 90% staging and then a
little bit of that redecorating stuff and in 2013 here in
Dallas. So that was in 2008.
And then I stare, stepped out of management and I went full time
in 2010 and was doing great. Home staging was fantastic.
I had a warehouse full of inventory.
We are busy every week. And then the market in Dallas
like was on fire. The real estate market where a
realtor would call me, let's say on a Friday and say, hey, can
you come out on Monday or Tuesday next week and stage this
home? Because I'm going to be taking
photos on Thursday and listing it on Friday.
And so I'd be OK, we can make that work.
I'd get a call on Monday canceling because the realtor
had put a sign out in the yard saying coming soon and they
already had offers. Oh wow.
So I had to pivot really quickly, learn how to own the
decorating aspect of it and really home that in.
So it was a long journey, but it was exactly where I needed to be
at each step of the way. How did you figure out how?
To set up. Your staging business, did you
have someone you could ask or did you just kind of feel it out
and figure it out? Back in the day, I didn't even
know that there were like business coaches available, but
I don't know if there were business coaches at the time for
that. I literally I would hatched
together blogs. I don't have the book anymore,
but I had the home staging for dummies book and I had I just I
read a bunch of books to try to figure it out and then just took
that kind of natural talent and always remembered that less is
more in staging. And this is what the goal is, is
not to make it pretty, it's to make it sell.
So that was the big differentiator between what I
wanted to do to the house versus what needed to be done in order
to make money for the seller. Yeah.
So then there was a shift for you going from staging to
decorating on the mindset of like, I'm not just selling this
house now, I'm designing it for the homeowner, right?
Yeah. It was a big mindset shift.
I tell a lot of my coaching clients because I coach interior
design business, the business of interior design, but I tell them
that when you get more sophisticated, your business
gets more sophisticated. And then as your business gets
more sophisticated, you get more sophisticated, like as an
individual and how intricately tied together we are with our
businesses. And so I had to do a lot of
mental work, like emotional work and stuff like that to be able
to own that next step because I did not go to school for
interior design. I thought that I, I was the
typical imposter syndrome, like I don't know what I'm doing.
When in reality, I'm naturally talented at this.
I'm good at it, but I had to overcome a lot of those, those
insecurities and fears which pop up on occasion but they're not
as loud. OK.
So then you develop your design business side and learned how to
run a business on trials by fire or.
Child by fire. Yeah, Speaking of Frankenstein
and things together. So like with the staging, I was
just trying to podcast at the time.
Luann was the only one that I think of that I was listening to
and then books and then other people's blogs and like the
Google was my my guide. And Rebecca, good Lord, I
thought I was coming into, you know, being an entrepreneur,
being a bad ass. And I literally fell on my ass.
I lost money, I lost sleep. The clients were just running me
ragged, like all the things they were shopping me, like I didn't
know what I didn't know. And then I was reaching out to
other designers and it was just crickets.
Yes. I had Toby.
Toby Fairly had started some coaching and so I kind of found
her later in my journey and she kind of confirmed through a lot
of her stuff that what I was doing was right, but it was
ugly. I truly promised myself at that
point that when I figured it out, like I was not going to be
a gatekeeper, I was going to shout it from the rooftops and
help other women share their their gift.
Yeah, and I love. That make money.
This is not a hobby we need to make a living. 100% yeah.
I feel almost as though new designers coming in have no
excuse. Now they have.
They. They.
We. Are giving them so much
information they can't help but be successful I would think.
Early on, it comes down to that mindset, yeah, You know, the
little voices in our head that tell us that we can't do it or
we're not worth it or whatever, but they need to be redirected,
those voices. Well, I love that you have the
heart to share it forward with new designers.
So tell us a little bit about your program.
Well, thank you for asking. And in fact, back earlier this
summer, we had a I've gone through a rebrand.
I was known as designed for the creative mind was the platform
because it was business. Yeah.
Designed for the creative mind and we rebranded to the Design
Bake House because my signature program is called the Interior
Design Business Bakery, and everything from there has just
taken on a life of its own based on the brand.
Yeah. So the Bake House now houses
multiple programs for My true calling is to help women scale
their business to multiple 6 figures with profit and passion.
Because once you get things systemized and once you get
these processes down, that that's what I teach.
We've got some other ancillary products that we have offered as
well, but the interior design business bakery is our signature
program and it's been a game changer for hundreds of
designers that I've really, I know this is where I'm supposed
to be. It was such a blessing to be
able to see the light bulb go off or to see one of what we
call the bakers who came into the program and they implemented
everything that how we specify it.
And then they're they're commanding design fees that are
5 figures. We've had a few of them that are
demanding 6 figure design fees. And I'm like, dude, like, yeah,
excited. And then they have the
confidence to do it. So we've got that.
And then my podcast that you were graciously guest on,
Designed for the Creative Mind. I kept that title for the
podcast only Now, so it's been fun.
Great, Yeah. And how long have you been
podcasting? Oh my gosh, I think we probably
are close to hitting 200 episodes, so maybe a few years
now. Nice.
And yeah. Girl, I don't know about you,
but I went into it kicking and screaming.
Yeah. I was like, how am I supposed
to, you know, put something else on my plate?
Because I still have ML Interiors Group, my design
business, so that is up and running.
And then I've got the coaching platform and I just had so many
people telling me I was like, OK, fine.
So I love it. I do too.
Yeah, I, I'm so surprised. I think when we talked, it's
like, I love getting to meet other people.
And so now I've been going through some solo seasons and
stuff like that, and I feel I'm laughing because I'm about to do
some recordings after we're done here.
But I feel like I'm finally getting into my groove with the
podcast because at first I was just kind of patching it
together. I was interviewing people
randomly. And now I kind of like, OK, I
have this season, I'm going to do marketing.
I have this season, I'm going to do rookie mistakes.
I have this season like a tech stack and stuff like that.
And just like my design business, I feel like I've
finally gotten sophisticated enough to elevate my podcast and
it raises me and then I raise it.
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I don't.
I don't kick and scream anymore. Yeah, but if a six year old had
done that. So the design community that you
have, how long do people typically stay in your program?
Is it like, do they flow in and out or are they there for the
long haul? Well, the signature program is a
year. And the reason why is because we
lay such a solid foundation and then you're you're implementing
things and then you're learning and then you're polishing them
up and then you're implementing them.
And we have weekly calls on Zoom so questions can be asked and
answered and in the Facebook group, asked and answered.
And that's the private Facebook group.
And so most of the time, like my goal is that in 12 months, you
have what you need to fly nice. And I do not have the next
level. Like I thought about creating
something that was next level, but my heart's really with just
let's get you into the six figures.
I don't need to take. Yeah, there's you can do that
with another coach, but that's my goal.
We have the opportunity like if you need to stay a couple extra
months, you can just go month to month.
But I, I joke that I'm not like a chiropractor where you have to
keep coming back for the rest of your life.
Let me give you the tools. You still have access to the key
ingredients that are in that the bakery program and then you
still have access in the group. So they're still there like and
that was something that we did recently is like, I felt so bad
just letting them fly free and then kicking them out of the
community because so many want to come in and like pour into
others. So I even have some graduated
bakers that are like coaching in the program to help give back.
So the community was such a blessing, like an unforeseen
frosting on the cake. And you wonder why I call it the
bakery. I talk in his analogies all the
time. But it's been so much fun,
especially because, as you know, you can feel like you're on an
island when you're in business for yourself.
So when you can develop these friendships and these
relationships and these little like subgroups, not cliques, but
like little subgroups of people that you can talk to and they're
all talking the same bakery language.
It's been really, really neat to see like you meet up in High
Point and you're like, we've got all these bakers and it's just
people jump off the screen and into your arms and it's it's.
Been very fun. Yeah.
Well, I have to know, Michelle,
are you actually a Baker in real life?
Do you love baking? I love eating the bakery stumps.
And it's funny that you ask because I am really working
right now on nailing a banana bread recipe.
Oh, I've tasted some of this banana bread that a friend of
mine's neighbor had made and I'm like, I need to work that out.
So I do love baking but girl I'm 55 years old now and it just
kicks to the wrong places a lot. Faster.
Yeah. Oh, Darren.
Yeah, so he's. The one diff to be selective or
I'd been in the gym my whole life.
Oh yeah, yeah. It's fun.
We came up with that name actually, the interior design
business Baker. I was working with a copywriter
when I was first coming out with my program because the bakery's
like the third iteration, like launching it a couple different
ways. And then I hired a coach and
she's the one who taught me how to create this community and to
how to, how to format it and all of the things.
So I hired A copywriter and her name is Julie, Julie Kabasis.
She's a freaking genius. But she at the end it was, we
were coming up with this, she goes, Michelle, I've got a few
names that we can choose that I, I, I think would work for you.
But I have this one that if you have, it's completely different
than anything else. If you've got the courage to do
this, I think it'll fit your personality.
And so she told me in the interior design business,
bakery. And it's because you use these
analogies, like if you leave the ingredients out or you put the
frosting on the cake or, or like you can make cupcakes out of a
cake mix or like, whatever, as we work together over the six or
eight weeks. And so I was like, hell, yeah,
let's do that. That's fun.
It's like, unlike anything else. And at that point in my career,
I'd finally figured out that just being myself is the easiest
thing to do. I don't need to try to put on
airs to be like all interior designer and stuff.
So it's kind of weird and worky, but so am I, so it.
Works. Yeah.
And it obviously attracts the people who like that and want to
work with you. So.
Right. Yeah.
It's great because I can use that as an example when I'm
coaching designers. Like, just be yourself, babe.
If you're formal and you're proper, then be formal and
proper. If you're weird and quirky, then
be weird and quirky. If you're somewhere in between,
like the best person to be as yourself.
And it's great that way because then it helps the clients or
even potential, you know, people for the coaching program, but it
helps clients identify the designer that they align with.
There's going to be someone for everybody.
And we don't have to be that one person for all people.
We want just the people that are our people, right?
So. Joke Yeah, there's enough ugly
houses for everybody. Yeah, plenty.
So, OK, so here's going back to earlier in our conversation when
I was talking about how I kind of transitioned from staging to
design. Well, when I first went more
towards the design angle, I branded myself as glamorously
functional interiors for busy professionals.
OK, because that's kind of what my style was, not like Z Gallery
or anything, but more like scan showers, but on a much tighter
budget. But what I found is that to show
up true to that brand, I'd have to get dressed up to go meet my
clients. Like glamorously functional.
I should look not as casual as I as I generally I'm like, I'm
perfectly comfortable in cute little booties or sandals, jeans
and a blazer like that. To me is is pulled together, you
know, brush your teeth, your hair together, makeup and stuff
like that. So it wasn't aligned.
It was not congruent with who I am inside.
So I found that I wasn't able to sell that brand as well as I can
just sell myself, right. I was joking with you earlier
that I'm going to try not to swear a lot on your podcast.
But every once in a while, like I would swear in front of a
client. Like in my sales pitch, I'd say
something, something, something and a little, little swear.
We're not a big one would come out.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
And I've had more than one prospect who turned into a
client saying, oh, that's OK. I actually trust you a little
bit more when you're and I'm like, what?
Like what? But yeah.
It's true your energy is what's going to attract your clients.
So being true to yourself, I hope the listeners just y'all be
yourself. Yeah, that authentic energy that
you're putting forward, Yeah. And it so that that glamorous
function brand that you had was misaligned.
Yeah. Totally, totally.
And I thought that I needed to be designery.
I thought that I needed to look like the other girls, that I was
looking at their websites to see what they were doing.
And 2000, what was this? We really pivoted in 13.
So yeah, social media was out there, but I wasn't on it as
much. But I was still comparing myself
to the designery girls of. Course, yeah, that's what social
media is definitely all about. And the website, of course, the
website's always going to put the best foot forward.
So yeah, it's a trap. Yeah, I love how nowadays we're
definitely much more transparent with each other and really just
trying to build a community where we all rise together.
Yes, a rising tide lifts all boats.
And also I laughed because back in, I guess 2013, when I was
really scrambling to figure out the design part, when I was
asking for help, Rebecca, I think that there was a lot of
designers. It's not that they were being
closed off. Some of them were, but I think
they didn't know what they were doing either.
We were all just kind of floating around trying to look
like we had our shoes. Together, fingers crossed that
we were actually designing correctly and running a business
correctly, yeah. And going to be able to cover
payroll or rent or just whatever P ourselves.
Yeah. Yeah, that's it's not for the
faint of heart. No, let's talk about your design
business now. So you're in the Dallas area
still that's. Correct.
Yeah. Dallas, Fort Worth.
I have gone from a team of two all the way up to a team of 10.
Now I'm back to a team of 2 1/2 and then at some outsource
stuff. We're still in the seven
figures. Some years we're just in the
high sixes. I don't care.
Like as long as I can pay my bills and keep my team happy,
we're not pulling our hair out. We're making a good profit.
I think that's a difference. So my revenue can be in the
seven figures. That's fine.
But if I'm not making a profit, and there's been years where I
was like, dude, that was like really high revenue, right?
Like that was well into the seven figures, but I wasn't
making profit or at least not enough profit to justify how
much work went into that revenue.
So there was a difference. It runs on, I don't want to say
it runs on autopilot, but I don't have to be involved in a
lot of the operations. I can be there as the CEO and
give my opinion like on designs and stuff like that and then
step out. It's great.
If we have a problem client then I get involved.
They still come around once in a while but allows me to really
focus on the other endeavours. I've got a Co working space and
yeah, that's where I'm sitting at right now in my little Zoom
room. OK, the one that you built for
other people to come? For designers.
Or the designer Co-op? Oh, OK.
So it's been fun. It's called Studio Works.
And it was something that I've had in my mind for a long time
because as ML Interiors Group, we need a conference room.
I need a resource room. But I had so much Dead Space
that wasn't getting users like, well, why can't I share it with
other designers so that they don't have to go through all of
the pain in the booty? And so here's a private office,
here's a community lounge, like wherever you want to work,
here's a conference room. You can rent it, use my stuff.
I love that. It hasn't been easy.
I don't know if I'd recommend it.
Oh OK. If y'all are listening and
you're on the Dallas Fort Worth area, come to Studio Works
because I've got 2 offices vacant.
OK, so how is it challenging if you can explain a little bit?
I think in all honesty, I, I probably spread myself too thin.
I thought that I was talking to people like, Oh my God, that's a
great idea. That's a great idea.
Tell me when you open it. Tell me when you open it.
And then I opened it and like nobody would come and sign a
contract. Oh.
I'm like, come on, man, it's just A and now I have help.
So that's actually been fantastic.
Alexis is my concierge and she gets out and helps market and so
forth. But it's just like I get the
place full and then somebody gives their notice and I get the
place full and somebody gives their notice.
So it's just that constant revolution, but.
Do you do anything with like to create community there with the
Co-op to like have Friday happy hour or something like that?
So we tried to do happy hour like networking happy hours,
right? And we would invite other people
in and then it would be just for our tenant or our members and
stuff like that. Dude, I ended up drinking more
of the wine than and bleaching it up.
We have vendors that'll come in that'll do some lunch and learn
or we'll have like a holiday pop up shop and stuff like that.
So we've gotten creative and we do different things like that,
but everybody's just so. Busy, yeah.
If I'm at work and somebody's serving wine, I'm going to take
a glass of wine and go back to my computer.
So I understand that, yeah. Well, it makes sense.
OK, well that's really interesting though.
So it's just a Co working space, not like a buying group or
anything. That's funny you ask.
We were going to do a buying group.
OK. I started it.
I wasn't going to do it well, so I just scrapped it.
It's like, you know what? I don't have the bandwidth to
run a design firm, the Co working place, the coaching.
I have a six year old half the time she was 4.
But I think it's really important that we prioritize and
it's like, could I do it? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And I could do it well. But I would rather spend my time
and my energy focused on my family, focused on my coaching
and my interior design in the actual Co working space.
So I put a a Nix on that. Too many moving parts.
Yeah, and it may be something you revisit later in a different
chapter of life, you know, I'm thinking.
About doing it for the bakers. Oh, OK, so.
Yeah, we've got options. If the need is there, I'd like
to fill it, but only if I don't embarrass myself, because that's
what I'll tell clients sometimes if they call for the design
business, if they call and they have a project that's maybe too
small, it's like, I'd love to help you, but I have all these
other large projects going on. And what I would hate to do is
embarrass myself and disappoint you because you're going to get
lost in the shuffle. Yeah, right.
I don't want to embarrass myself and disappoint my clients,
whoever they are. Yeah.
So you have a community that you could pass smaller jobs to refer
out? Yeah, that's nice.
Yeah, that part definitely is helpful.
Yeah. So how would you say the
percentages from your design business to your other things
like how much are you designing to coaching to other stuff?
You know, I've really been trying to put my finger on that.
I have a review and planning guide that that I give away and
I use it myself just like what can I outsource, where am I
spending my time and so forth. And there has not been any
consistency. I'm weeks I am just eyeballs
deep in the design side of the business.
When we've been going through the rebrand and we're moving
things over to a different software.
We're moving, we're integrating a lot of the coaching stuff onto
side Mark because there's a membership side there.
So I've been like over the past few months very coaching side
business and then it starts all over again and it's more focus
on side marker, more focus on studio work.
So I have 0 answer. The bottom line.
Yeah, I'm. Sure, it is like an ebb and
float depend what is heating up at the moment, yeah.
And then I feel like I'm like, proactive, right?
It's like, OK, I can be proactive and plan for this,
this and this, and then something wheels off and I'm
like pulled in another direction.
So just try to be flexible. And yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And we had Ben Rutledge on a
while back to talk about Sidemark and I know that you are
a part of that kind of talk about your hand in that program.
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, Thank you, Sidemark.
So, OK, I get so excited talking about business coming out of
corporate, OK. I was running a sales
organization within this recruiting firm.
I was in charge of the division that was having a lot of sales
in sales. We had a software that allowed
us to keep track of our conversations, to run our e-mail
blast. It's like do all the things.
When I left that job and I was running my own business, I've
been looking for something that would allow me to consolidate
all of the software pieces that I've been, again,
Frankensteining together. Like you've got MailChimp and
then you've got Zoho and then you've got Calendly and then
you've got DocuSign and then you have the shoot whatever we were
using for social media and it was just, it was costing me like
500 bucks a month for all these little subscriptions.
So Ben and I were working on my ML Interiors Group website.
He was designing it. We were talking about things and
he's like, hey, I have the ability to get this type of
software that does all these things and he's like, are you
in? Would you be interested in
something about that? I was like, shut the front door,
Ben. I've been looking for that for a
decade now. And basically what it is, it's a
white label of a platform called Go High Level that is like this
big old badass software program. And then we took that platform
and designed it for designers. Any designer can go sign up for
Go High Level, right? But we've created the templates
and the workflows and all the things and made it pretty for
designers. And so now, like I built my
website for the design bake house on that platform and it's
got SEO and it has all the things.
So that has been a lot of fun over the past couple years as
well. That launched at about the same
time as Studio Works. And I do not recommend 2
businesses starting at once. So yeah, that has been really a
benefit to ML Interiors Group because I have everything housed
there. Like I can take payment and it
drops into QuickBooks. I can send invoices.
I use a different platform for that, but I can do that.
Like for our initial visit, I can get signatures on the
contracts and then it automatically attaches to the
client's file. It's been a game changer.
Wow, that's great. Yeah, yeah, I like that you you
were able to white label it, but then make it for designers.
So it's just ready to go, has all the templates and.
Just this is what you need. You can create your like the
forms where you can create your own lead magnets or you can do
quizzes through it. You can do webinars through it.
Like all of this stuff is built in and it consolidated
everything so that you are almost one and done.
Like put your e-mail list together because we have to have
e-mail lists. The social media stuff is great,
but e-mail list is where it's at.
That's where the money is. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, wow. You're just a powerhouse.
You have so many things going that are helpful to everybody
and to your own business. I've just.
Been loving talking with you Michelle.
Well, thank you. I I wouldn't say powerhouse, I
would just say when I find a good recipe I like to share it
very. Well, what other information or
advice would you have for a designer who's up and coming, or
even someone thinking about changing careers like you did
and becoming an interior designer maybe didn't have the
schooling for it? Don't do it alone.
There are a lot of resources out there now.
Yeah, don't do it alone. I joke that there's enough ugly
houses for all the designers. Find a business coach.
OK, Find a business coach. Get the help.
It can be me. It can be anybody.
Do some interviews, like figure out who you vibe with.
And it's the same thing we were talking about earlier.
It's like, whose energy are you attracted to?
Who's talked the talk and walked the walk?
Yeah. And so it's just like we want
our interior design clients to get to know us and understand
how we work as a new designer coming into the market, get to
know a coach and figure out how they work and take advantage of
that because our program will take you in a year and move you
five years ahead. So it's what I call bending
time. So any good coach should be able
to do that for you. Well, that's great, Michelle.
Great advice. Thank you.
We're going to put your contact information in the show notes so
everybody can find you and reach out to you.
Thank you and learn about all that you have to offer.
So thank you for coming on Design Curies today.
Oh my gosh, it's so much fun. I always enjoy connecting with
you, Rebecca. Thanks for having me.
OK, so if you're interested in working with Michelle, listening
to her podcast, finding out more about her, we have her contact
information in the show now. It's very easy for you to get
there. And while you're at it, check
out some of the other great things we have for you.
We have downloads, free guides, a quiz, and information about my
design mentor all in one place for you.
So go check that out. Don't forget to leave me a
rating and review or some feedback on what you like
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review and let me know or send me Adm on Instagram.
I'd love to talk with you. All right, that's it for this
week. Next week we'll have another
great episode. And until then, stay creative.
Thanks for listening. If you love this episode, please
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