1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,680 We are essentially tapping into your body's control panel and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,280 that reminds everything how to communicate with one another 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:10,960 again. Sometimes something like 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,880 acupuncture feels a little bit woo woo. 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,560 What evidence is out there to show that this is actually 6 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,320 making a difference? If you have a practitioner 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,880 that's saying we will definitely be able to do this, then that is 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,280 a red flag. It's not anything nearly as bad 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,920 as you think being prodded with a needle would be. 10 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,320 AMH is a big buzzword in the fertility world. 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,480 It doesn't define your ability to conceive. 12 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:37,720 I think it might be making a difference to me, and that 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:43,080 counts for a lot. You're listening to the Too Much 14 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,680 Information podcast where no woman's health topic is off 15 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,040 limits. Before we get started, I just 16 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,880 want to say thank you. This podcast would be nothing 17 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:53,520 without you. Follow along if you're not 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,720 already, and if you like what you hear, please spread the 19 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,200 word. Enjoy the episode. 20 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,080 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Too Much Information. 21 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,760 Today we are talking all about acupuncture for fertility and a 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,760 few other Women's Health issues in there as well. 23 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:20,320 And I am delighted to be joined by Kate Jackson, also known as 24 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:23,040 the Cheshire Acupuncturist. Welcome, Kate. 25 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,960 It's so nice to have you. Thank you so much. 26 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,040 I, we're so excited to get you on the podcast here because 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,200 whenever the topic of acupuncture was mentioned, I 28 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,640 would often get at least one person saying you're based up 29 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,080 north, you should go and see the Cheshire acupuncturist. 30 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,960 And I was like, I wish I could. It's just not that close. 31 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:45,960 You're very well known in this space. 32 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:50,120 So I'm just really hoping that today we can start to give 33 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:55,200 people a little bit more of the facts around why acupuncture is 34 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,840 such a beneficial or whether acupuncture is such a beneficial 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,560 addition to a fertility journey and. 36 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,880 Really before? We get started. 37 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,240 I'd love to know a bit about you, who you are, what you do, 38 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,320 how you got into this. Sure. 39 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:19,800 So I originally got into acupuncture because my grandma 40 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,360 fell very poorly with breast cancer. 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,440 I was very, very close to my grandma and a couple of thoughts 42 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,440 popped in my head as to, you know, is she going to be OK? 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,240 Like, what's the prognosis of this? 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,720 And then secondly, is it genetic? 45 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,480 Am I going to get this? And when I was younger, I 46 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,000 actually used to have, I would say, quite significant health 47 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,440 anxiety. I don't really have it at all 48 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,200 much now, but it used to really consume me. 49 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,560 I used to go down a rabbit hole when I used to have some 50 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:49,680 something wrong. So I actually just started to 51 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,320 look for ways that could help her. 52 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,000 She was going through conventional medicine. 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,680 She was getting a lot of side effects. 54 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,960 And I thought, right, I need to try and find something that 55 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,600 could support her. And I actually came across 56 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,120 acupuncture. I'd always been interested in 57 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,680 health and I just really resonated with it. 58 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,960 And I thought maybe she could try this because she can do it 59 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,800 alongside, you know, conventional medication, things 60 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,680 like that. So I ended up taking her for her 61 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:22,000 session, and she really, really benefited from it so much. 62 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,560 And I was quite young and I was in a job that I hated. 63 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,960 And I thought, I'm going to go and see, you know, where I can 64 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,520 train to do this. So weirdly, the universe aligned 65 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,320 and there was actually somewhere around 5 minutes from my house 66 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,040 where I lived at the time, who I could train in Chinese medicine. 67 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,640 Um, so two weeks later I was signed up and I then went on to 68 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,800 do a course for three years and many other things after that. 69 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,440 And once I graduated, I was kind of thrown in at the deep end. 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,280 So I wasn't doing fertility then. 71 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,600 And then a lot of the managers in the clinics that I was 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,440 working in would be like, can you treat fertility? 73 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,160 And I was like, no, I'm not treating fertility. 74 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,040 I'm too young. I don't have any experience with 75 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:07,720 it. And then one day one of the 76 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,040 managers just said, we're just going to put them in with you. 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,240 And I was so angry and annoyed because I just didn't want to do 78 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,280 it. I didn't feel like I was the 79 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,079 right person. And this is just where 80 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:23,560 everything kind of aligns. So after that day of my first 81 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,680 patient for fertility, I just kind of really resonated with 82 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,040 it. I just realised actually, this 83 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,960 is just somebody'd health. I'm putting the pieces together 84 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,520 and the icing on the cake obviously is the baby. 85 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,120 And then I treated quite a few people over a period of time and 86 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,520 I got results very quickly on word spread very, very quickly. 87 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:50,520 So it all kind of escalated from there and now I cannot imagine 88 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,800 doing anything else. That's amazing. 89 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,600 What is the best part of your job? 90 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,160 I think the best part of my job is I get to know people so 91 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,480 deeply because I work with them over a significant period of 92 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,920 time. So in the last week, I've had 93 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,120 two patients reach out that I treated six years ago because 94 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,520 they want to try for their second or third child. 95 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,120 You see, you know all the amazing things. 96 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,040 You see all the bad things, the terrible things. 97 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,760 And you build really close relationships with people in 98 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:25,840 this job. You, you. 99 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:30,760 And then obviously seeing them come full circle, baby. 100 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,360 That's always the goal, isn't it? 101 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,560 It's so the timing of this is so interesting because I've just 102 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,360 come from my hour long acupuncture session this 103 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,400 morning. So I feel like I've got it all 104 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,120 front of mine now as I'm asking these questions to you, and I'm 105 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,240 super interested in understanding this crossover 106 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,520 between Western and Chinese medicine. 107 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,720 Would you be able to just talk through those two sides of 108 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,800 medicine and how they're different, but also how they 109 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,480 meet? Yeah. 110 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,720 So essentially we can use acupuncture alongside 111 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,120 conventional medicine for the majority. 112 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,680 So essentially with Western medicine, they're always looking 113 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,560 for the pathology in terms of an outcome. 114 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,640 So a diagnosis of some kind, whether it'll be looking at 115 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,880 specific hormones or you know, checking your lining or looking 116 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,680 for structural issues. It's very much rooted in finding 117 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,760 something physical. But for Chinese medicine, we're 118 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,200 actually always looking at patterns. 119 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,240 So we have things called blood deficiency, liver cheese, 120 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,720 stagnation, spleen G deficiency. If you've been to an 121 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,320 acupuncturist who's Chinese medicine training, you'll often 122 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,200 have heard of these things. And these are what we call 123 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,080 Chinese medicine diagnosis. And these kind of come under an 124 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,120 umbrella of patterns. So two people can come to us 125 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,280 with the same issue. For example, they could come to 126 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:08,480 us with headaches, but the route is entirely different, whereas 127 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,840 Western medicine thought you would treat that the same, where 128 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,960 we'll be looking at the pattern and how that's expressing for 129 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,600 that individual. So you go, you go to get an 130 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,920 ultrasound done. If you're trying for a baby and 131 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,960 you want to see how your lining is and they may tell you it's 132 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,560 thin, Western medicine will tell you that, but Chinese medicine 133 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,080 will help you understand the why. 134 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,000 So it works really well together. 135 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,040 But like I say, Western medicine is always kind of looking for 136 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,280 that end. And it makes you feel like a 137 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:46,160 failure actually, because often if you don't find anything, the 138 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,040 unexplained fertility label, it's used a lot. 139 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,720 So if we don't actually find anything, we think what's 140 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,840 what's, what's wrong with us. But that's where someone like 141 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,680 myself will come in, or another practitioner that understands 142 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:03,520 how the body is kind of working as a whole interconnected system 143 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,280 and not just, you know, in isolation. 144 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,480 What kind of thing are you looking for when you're trying 145 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,920 to get to the root cause of a problem? 146 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,360 I mean, a very, very common pattern that we see in clinic is 147 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,240 what we call spleen chi deficiency. 148 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,520 Now that sounds crazy to someone that's never heard that before. 149 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,040 However, essentially it's where the digestive system may be 150 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,360 weakened. So we know that there can be 151 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:32,039 many causes for that. In Chinese medicine, we know 152 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:34,520 that warming foods are very important for the digestive 153 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,760 system. So it may be we just need to 154 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,240 make small tweaks about how they consume their food. 155 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,679 Or it might be more from a Western point of view, maybe 156 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,200 they have things like low stomach acids so they're not 157 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,920 actually able to break down and utilise the nutrients from the 158 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,120 food efficiently. So in practise I'm essentially 159 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,640 going through a lot of questions. 160 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,280 It's not a 5 minute appointment, it's a lot of sessions. 161 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,040 And quite often, I'll say to patients, look, we might not 162 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,400 actually figure this out today in one session because I need 163 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:08,920 time. And quite often I will wake up 164 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,880 at 3:00 AM thinking, right, this is what it is. 165 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:16,840 Because my patients diagnosis, they're always in my head and 166 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,960 I'd never switch off from it. I like the puzzle around it. 167 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,360 And also, people don't always feel comfortable in the first 168 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:24,800 session. They might actually tell you 169 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,200 more as time goes along because they might be embarrassed about 170 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,920 something. And so that's why the 171 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,240 relationship with a practitioner is so important as well, because 172 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,080 it allows that space to open up things that they may have not 173 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,800 told other people before, which creates, you know, a better 174 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,200 diagnosis. How exactly does acupuncture 175 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,840 work for fertility and menstrual cycles in general? 176 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,280 It's really important to note that there are actually 177 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,800 different styles of acupuncture. So sometimes someone may come to 178 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,520 me and they say they've had acupuncture, but actually it 179 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:56,960 turns like they've had dry needling. 180 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,120 Specifically. I'm trained in Chinese medicine 181 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,760 and that's where it originates from and it's been around for 182 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,840 thousands of years. And we look at the body as a 183 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,320 whole interconnected system. It uses very fine needles, 184 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,400 places specific points along the body. 185 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,120 So the easiest way to kind of explain it is we are essentially 186 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,920 tapping into your body's control panel and that reminds 187 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,800 everything how to communicate with one another. 188 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,840 Again, because the system is so interconnected. 189 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,120 So most people do associate acupuncture with relaxation. 190 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,240 And don't get me wrong, it is very, very relaxing and calming, 191 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,600 but it's also working behind the scenes on things like blood 192 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:46,360 flow, inflammation, digestion, sleep, and your immune system. 193 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,920 So we're actually sending signals to your nervous system, 194 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,040 essentially guiding your body back to homeostasis. 195 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,680 So it's the wiring between your brain, your ovaries, your 196 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:02,960 uterus, your adrenals, your thyroid, and your nervous system 197 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,840 decides whether your body is in survival or whether it's in safe 198 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,200 mode. And we have two branches of that 199 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,480 system. So we have the sympathetic 200 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,640 nervous system, which is fight and flight. 201 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,880 And then we have the parasympathetic nervous system, 202 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,280 which is rest, repair, reproduce. 203 00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:23,680 And fertility falls in the second category. 204 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,720 So if your brain senses a stress, and stress is a very 205 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,440 broad umbrella term, isn't it? I hate that word. 206 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,160 I really hate it because doesn't really tell us anything. 207 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,160 What is stress? It can be emotional, it can be 208 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,360 physical, it can be blood sugar, it can be overtraining, it can 209 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,600 be lack of sleep. All those things shift you into 210 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,760 a fight and flight state. And in that state, fertility 211 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,680 becomes non essential because the body prioritises survival 212 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:02,000 over a healthy ovulation. And because your fertility is 213 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,200 not essential for the body to survive, it will shut that down 214 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,320 or try, you know, reduce it. So the body is never actually 215 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,080 against you. It's just your biology and it's 216 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,280 a protective mechanism for your safety. 217 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,880 So if someone is chronically stressed, we often will see 218 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,920 those patterns, whether it comes up as liver cheese, stagnation, 219 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,600 you know, kidney deficiency. They show up in the symptoms 220 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,680 like irritability, tension head and neck pain, palpitations, 221 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,240 lower back pain. And that's the body's way of 222 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,680 communicating because it can't talk. 223 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,920 So acupuncture helps because we we place needles into our 224 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,400 patient and we stimulate the sensory nerves in the skin and 225 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,560 in the muscles. And those signals travel back up 226 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:52,840 to the brain and they influence the areas that control the 227 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,960 stress hormones, your inflammation, your heart rate, 228 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:02,360 PU adrenals, the blood vessels. It allows your body the chance 229 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,240 to kind of reset. And if you've ever had 230 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,400 acupuncture, you know, you'll know what I mean. 231 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,720 I actually describe it to my patients like having a glass of 232 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,680 wine because if you're really stressed and you have 233 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,000 acupuncture, but it's just like all of a sudden you just have 234 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,200 that wind down feeling. I actually think that's a great 235 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,280 comparison because when I'm there on the acupuncture table, 236 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,040 it's like you went to this state of deep relaxation. 237 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,600 At the same time. I've almost noticed this like 238 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:40,720 slight fizzing or buzzing in like within my body, which maybe 239 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,440 you could also liken to that kind of first feeling of like 240 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,240 tipsiness when alcohol hits your system. 241 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,840 Is that normal? Absolutely. 242 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,720 I mean, when patients come to see me for the first session, I 243 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,720 say, look, you might actually feel nothing, or you might feel, 244 00:13:58,360 --> 00:13:59,960 you actually might feel quite heavy. 245 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,200 Yeah, sometimes your legs can go heavy. 246 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,680 I get that when I have acupuncture. 247 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,640 Or you might find tingling or just sensation around specific 248 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,520 points. But yeah, when the nervous 249 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,240 system shifts into that safety mode, when you have that art, I 250 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,320 feel a relaxed feeling that is when the blood flow improves to 251 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,960 the reproductive organs, you know, your hormone signalling 252 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,160 strengthens and ovulation can become more consistent. 253 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,640 So Western medicine robot is always looking at the ovaries, 254 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,640 you know, but it's not just about the ovary. 255 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,920 It's the whole interconnected system. 256 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,360 So interesting. Can we talk a bit about the 257 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,120 science and the evidence behind it? 258 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,680 Because we've definitely got a couple of sceptics out there and 259 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,360 sometimes something like acupuncture feels a little bit 260 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,320 woo woo. I would love to know what 261 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,160 evidence there is out there to show that this is actually 262 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,160 making a difference, particularly when it comes to 263 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,520 fertility. Well, I come from a family 264 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,280 that's very analytical and logical. 265 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:09,200 So I have, I've had to kind of show the science to my own 266 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,720 family. I was the quack of the family. 267 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,160 I was the black sheep knife when I started acupuncture. 268 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,160 So I totally understand. And I actually, I'm quite 269 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,360 logical and analytical minded as well. 270 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,640 Evidence out there varies because it depends on, you know, 271 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,680 timing, dose of sessions, if they're doing IVF, if they're 272 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,920 trying naturally. But there was a study done on 273 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,160 fertility outcomes and live birth rates for those going 274 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,640 through IVF and that was like a total of just under 6000 275 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,040 participants. And they were essentially women 276 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,320 that were really struggling to conceive and were going through 277 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,600 IVF and they were going through a fresh cycle. 278 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,400 And acupuncture was performed as part of their IVF protocol in 279 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,240 the stimulation phase. And that significantly increased 280 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,400 the clinical pregnancy rates. There's also as well there is 281 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,960 studies out there to show how it can really help those with, you 282 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,480 know what we call door, which is diminished ovarian reserve. 283 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,720 It can help lower FSH. There's studies to show that. 284 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:24,480 We know that as FSH rises, you know, it's possible that we're 285 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,240 going into that more perimenopausal state. 286 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,160 It can also be driven by other things, but acupuncture can down 287 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,280 regulate that response as well. There are studies to show that 288 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,640 and there are studies now like showing it's equivalent to kind 289 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,680 of using ovulation induction medication because essentially 290 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,240 what it's doing is it's helping the brain to communicate with 291 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,840 the ovaries, which is essentially kind of what things 292 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,800 like letrozole and Clomid do as well in the roundabout way. 293 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,960 And then also Electro acupuncture. 294 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,160 I don't know if you've ever had that. 295 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,200 No, I've never heard of it. What is it? 296 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,640 Well, it's essentially where we will stimulate you a little bit 297 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,319 more because we'll use a little device which allows a current to 298 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:12,480 go from. Wow. 299 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,040 Yeah, sometimes we may use that. And there were studies with male 300 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:22,400 infertility on sperm motility and that showed an improvement 301 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,599 in motility and total motile sperm count after Electro 302 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,600 acupuncture. So there is more and more 303 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,560 evidence out there now. But also it's really important 304 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,080 to note that, you know, sometimes people will say, well, 305 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,120 acupuncture hasn't worked for me or doesn't work for me. 306 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,120 And it depends how you define an acupuncture working and you're 307 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:51,640 defining it by the live birth or you do fine in it by you know, 308 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,600 your how you feel your menstrual cycles and things like that. 309 00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:59,520 And then obviously when I see people, I'm just seeing them for 310 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,760 one hour per week. So you could easily counteract 311 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,400 treatment with lifestyle. So it's that whole balance. 312 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,680 But sent on a on a basic level, it, it does work. 313 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,440 We do have, you know, papers out there, published studies. 314 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,160 So yeah, the the evidence is there. 315 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,520 It's really reassuring, it's really interesting when you're 316 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,280 on a slightly longer, trying to conceive journey. 317 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,720 You're trying a lot of things, right? 318 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,160 So you might be upgrading your diet, you might be doing a 319 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,160 different type of exercise, drinking less alcohol, trying to 320 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,760 meditate, insert many, many, many things here. 321 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,040 And alongside that, you might be doing acupuncture as well. 322 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,960 For me anecdotally, I know that over the last four or five 323 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,720 months since I've been doing acupuncture regularly, my cycles 324 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:01,400 which were about 35 plus days have gone down to a much more 325 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:09,280 like 323331 sometimes day cycle. I've definitely had a little bit 326 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,120 less PMSI, yeah, have been ovulating much more regularly. 327 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,640 All of these things are positive in my mind, but there's no way 328 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,160 that I personally could put that down to one thing. 329 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,800 If I'm going into a session like that and I am having a dedicated 330 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,920 hour where I'm not on my phone, I'm not stressing. 331 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,440 In fact, I'm feeling like very relaxed. 332 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,280 That can't be a bad thing. It's multifactorial, isn't it? 333 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,640 There's not, it's never just one thing, you know, the whole body 334 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,040 is an interconnected system. So there's many different 335 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,560 systems supporting fertility. So acupuncture is absolutely 336 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,400 beneficial, but it's not the only thing. 337 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,000 And you don't, you don't have to have acupuncture either. 338 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,320 Some people might just not like needles. 339 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,720 Ironically, I hate needles and I want to. 340 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:02,120 Oh, really? So yeah, you have to find what 341 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,240 works for you and what you feel comfortable with. 342 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,480 Some people prefer reflexology, but I think with you. 343 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,520 Touching on the anecdotal side, I think that's extremely 344 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,320 important. I think a lot of people can 345 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,520 dismiss that, but this is how trials come around, through 346 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,760 anecdotal evidence, so it's very important. 347 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,760 Whatever it is, whether that's down to you solely or down to a 348 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,800 cocktail of things, it just must be really lovely to see people 349 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,040 get the news that they want. Yeah. 350 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,120 Absolutely. I went to one acupuncture 351 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,720 clinic. I didn't go back. 352 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,800 I didn't have a great experience. 353 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,000 Everything was like, oh, we'll fix that, We'll fix that. 354 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,720 And then on the right as you walked in, there was this pin 355 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,080 board which was just covered by positive pregnancy test result 356 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,840 pictures, ultrasound scans, cards from patients announcing 357 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,360 their pregnancies. And I was like, that is a giant 358 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:01,000 trigger right there. I just felt like it was a bit 359 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,320 much being promised the world. Is there anything that you, as 360 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,880 an acupuncturist, cannot promise? 361 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,200 We don't promise pregnancy. It's actually on our 362 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,880 consultation form because we need you to understand that 363 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,360 sometimes things just don't go the way we hope and that's OK. 364 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,120 You know, I will normally say to a patient in the first session, 365 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,520 you know, where are you at? It's a very collaborative 366 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,160 process. So where are you at? 367 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,640 What are you prepared right now to put into this? 368 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,160 How much time do you want to give it? 369 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,320 I even give them the chance to tell me how many children 370 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:39,960 they're actually wanting so that we can. 371 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,240 Kind of just look. At the bigger picture and kind 372 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,040 of see what we can do with that information and what they can 373 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,880 personally handle at that moment in time. 374 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:55,640 Because if you promise somebody the world and then things are 375 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,200 just not happening, they are going to feel much worse. 376 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,560 If you have a practitioner that's saying we would 377 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,840 definitely be able to do this, then that is a red flag because 378 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,600 no one can promise you that. So we don't promise in our 379 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,080 clinic a pregnancy. We have to take into account the 380 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,800 individual, their history, their circumstances, what they're 381 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,920 prepared to put into this. But also I am, I do try and 382 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,080 encourage patients that there is a lot of hope and you know, 383 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,000 there's a lot that isn't really looked at or investigated 384 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,400 appropriately on the NHS due to budget restrictions and things. 385 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,640 So we try and fill in those gaps where we can to give that 386 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,360 patient hope. And I think it's another example 387 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:44,520 of how that traditional medicine and contemporary Western, 388 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,240 whatever you want to call it, medicine can intersect and can 389 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,640 kind of go hand in hand with each other as well. 390 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:56,080 Yeah. 1 thing I'd love to know about is the value of like 391 00:22:56,120 --> 00:23:01,920 add-ons within acupuncture. I've had somebody using like an 392 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:08,640 infrared light over me and also almost a Reiki style like chime. 393 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,320 That was interesting. OK, OK. 394 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:18,080 But I'd love to know what the benefits are of these additions. 395 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,440 Yeah, sure. So we use moxa in the clinic 396 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,640 quite often. It's a herb that is burnt and 397 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,240 there's different ways to use it within the clinical setting. 398 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,520 So for me, most commonly I will use a moxa butcher stick. 399 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,000 It looks a bit like a cigar. It's not. 400 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,720 Smells like weed as well. Great weed. 401 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,600 However, we will light that at the end like a cigar and we'll 402 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,080 hold it over specific points depending on the presentation of 403 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,640 that person and what they need and that influences the flow of 404 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,080 blood through those specific channels that we may be working 405 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,160 on with that patient. So we may use Moxa to turn help 406 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,720 turn a breech baby and that can be really successful because we 407 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,560 are working on that specific channel. 408 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,120 The channel runs through the uterus and the warming element 409 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:19,000 of the Moxa and the acupuncture moves fluid, which allows the 410 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,640 baby to turn over a period of time. 411 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:28,480 And we may use it if someone has, you know, the cold we, it 412 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,400 gets a lot of wrap on hate on Instagram, the cold we, but I 413 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,440 think people don't really understand what it is. 414 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,280 It's just essentially A diagnosis with a set of 415 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,520 symptoms. And if something's cold, we do 416 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,560 want to move it and warm it, so we can use Moxa busting for 417 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:45,680 that. There are many different ways 418 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,680 that we can use it, but it does depend on the person and it's 419 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,480 also not right for everybody. I don't respond very well to 420 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,960 Moxa personally. I'm very, I'm more dry. 421 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,120 So for me, it's a little bit too stimulating for me and it can 422 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,640 give me headaches. But for the right person, it's 423 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,280 amazing. We also have the heat lamp and 424 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,440 infrared. It's probably my most commonly 425 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:15,000 asked question on my Instagram. Where is your where is your lamp 426 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,600 from? They can really help because 427 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,720 they support the mitochondria from a western point of view, 428 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,240 which is like the the powerhouses of ourselves, allows 429 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,760 energy production and essentially if we put it over 430 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,640 the abdomen, it can really support the mitochondria in the 431 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,960 area. Ideally you don't really want to 432 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,160 be doing it any longer than 20 minutes in a session because you 433 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,400 can, you can stimulate the mitochondria too much. 434 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,160 You know, there's balance with everything. 435 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,160 An infrared is not always warm. So I have a couple of lamps. 436 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,720 I have the infrared lamp that isn't warm and I have a a red 437 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,040 lamp which is warm. So again, it will depend on the 438 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,360 person as to what I will use in the session. 439 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,200 We can use Electro acupuncture, which we touched on earlier, and 440 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,440 we have herbal medicine that's a completely separate skill set 441 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,240 and can be really complementary to acupuncture. 442 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,000 Great one for those that maybe are not able to get to clinic 443 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,880 every week. A lot of IVF clinics are not. 444 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:21,000 They will generally advise you not to be on herbs around your 445 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,040 treatment. Again, down to the individual, 446 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,200 then it's personal choice. Yeah, I was definitely said 447 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,840 that. Could you explain to listeners 448 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,560 some of the best ways to choose a clinic or an acupuncturist? 449 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,800 You've touched on a couple of red flags, but what are some 450 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,040 signs that someone is good? OK. 451 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,360 So you want to make sure that the practitioner has proper 452 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:52,120 training and registration. So in the UK it's not a 453 00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,840 regulated industry and I'm not sure that it ever will be 454 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,520 because there's so many different types of, of 455 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,240 practitioners doing it from physios to Chinese medicine. 456 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,040 So it's hard to kind of regulate that. 457 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,960 You want to look to see if they're registered with a 458 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,080 recognised body such as the British Acupuncture Council and 459 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,400 you want to make sure that they're trained in at least two 460 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,800 years for acupuncture because there is the option to do, you 461 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,800 know, very short weekend courses out there. 462 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,040 And the more I learn, the less I know. 463 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,480 And I've been doing this for a decade. 464 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,560 So how you would know everything in a weekend is beyond me. 465 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,120 I actually just started with acupuncture and then I 466 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,000 specialised more in the fertility. 467 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,680 So you need the foundations first. 468 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,320 In terms of the actual practitioner themselves, you 469 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,600 want to make sure that they ask good questions. 470 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,360 What's their consultation form like? 471 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,120 Is it 3 questions or is it a novel? 472 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:55,480 Mine's actually a novel because I just want to know so much 473 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,840 about the person and then we have those questions in clinic 474 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,800 as well. Is your practitioner comfortable 475 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,240 with collaboration in terms of, you know, working alongside GPS, 476 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,480 you know, another consultant, a clinic, are they anti medicine? 477 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,160 People will automatically assume because you do acupuncture that 478 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,840 you may be anti medicine. You know, you know, you can't be 479 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,240 because sometimes medication is absolutely required for an 480 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,240 individual. And then lastly, I would say 481 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,680 making sure that you feel safe because I actually feel like a 482 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,560 practitioner was a huge part of your healing and processing the 483 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,280 entire journey and not feeling like you're rushed or you're 484 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,440 judged. And I also feel that you will 485 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,600 know when you find that practitioner in your gut, really 486 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,120 how as long as they've got the training and how you feel about 487 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,720 them. Yeah, really good advice. 488 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,640 And I think with all these things, having that trust in the 489 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,040 team that's working with you is so important because at the end 490 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,840 of the day, I don't know how to stick a needle in my body to get 491 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,920 any kind of positive impact. I don't know what kind of 492 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,760 injections I should be taking to stimulate my ovaries, so you do 493 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,320 just have to have complete trust in the team that's behind you. 494 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,080 Yes, you do. We've got quite a few listener 495 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,720 questions, Kate. I am wondering if we can go 496 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,040 through these in more of a quick fire style. 497 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,520 The first one I think I actually can answer and that is does it 498 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,680 hurt? It doesn't hurt really, does it? 499 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,720 No, it doesn't hurt. You may feel different 500 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,760 sensations at different times in your cycle. 501 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,560 Sometimes you could be more sensitive when you are kind of 502 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,280 due on your period or on your period. 503 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,320 Also depends on the practitioner if I'm being totally honest and 504 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,640 their skills as well. So there is a like a technique 505 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,320 to that. But generally speaking, no, 506 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,080 there is no pain, just more sensation. 507 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,360 Yeah, that makes sense. I've had a couple in my ear and 508 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,200 on the end of my toe which like definitely felt like more 509 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,680 sensitive spots, but it's not nearly as bad as you think 510 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,560 being, you know, prodded with a needle would be. 511 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,120 How often do you need to go and how consistently for it to be 512 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,960 effective specifically for fertility? 513 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,400 It depends what we're working with. 514 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,160 I will generally see my patients weekly or every other week and 515 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,240 sometimes patients are not able to do that and that's fine. 516 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,000 But we have to set realistic expectations. 517 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,800 So if somebody, you know, has a healthy meal once, that's 518 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,840 obviously really good for them, but we need it to be more 519 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:44,000 cumulative to get the effect. So ideally we want to work with 520 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:49,840 them for a good 12 weeks because the whole process and their, you 521 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,520 know, follicle formation happens over around 90 to 120 days. 522 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,920 So we want to work with you in each phase of your cycle to help 523 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:05,400 that process. Is there a better time in your 524 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,480 cycle to be getting acupuncture? That's a really, really, really 525 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,320 common question that I get, actually, yes and no. 526 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,640 I mean, if you're in a position where you're not able to go 527 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,960 weekly, then I would say go once at least in your follicular 528 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,040 phase and then once in your luteal phase and try and balance 529 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,520 out that way. But generally speaking, we can 530 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,160 see you at any point of your cycle and it will always benefit 531 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,280 you no matter what part of your cycle you're in. 532 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,720 OK, that's great. Is it ever too late to start 533 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,600 acupuncture for fertility? It depends what the goal is. 534 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,320 If you are. Sometimes people don't hear 535 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,400 about acupuncture until they are actually at the doors of the IVF 536 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,200 clinic because they often talk about it. 537 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,320 Now, if we know someone's going for IVF, in an ideal world, we 538 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,200 want to see them, you know, the three months before their egg 539 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,840 collection so we can really get the best quality eggs. 540 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,840 But some people don't find out, you know, until a few weeks 541 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,720 before. So I normally will tell them, 542 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,560 look, we we might not have the best influence in terms of the 543 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,280 eggs. However, you are absolutely 544 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,440 still going to get benefit from the acupuncture alone in terms 545 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,720 of the nervous system, the blood flow, you know, helping to 546 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,560 regulate the hormones, helping to put that body into 547 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,240 homeostasis, common inflammation. 548 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,640 So there's absolutely benefits if you are within that window, 549 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,480 you can absolutely still start. Great, thank you. 550 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,520 Is acupuncture for fertility only for women? 551 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,320 No, it's not. It's for men as well. 552 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,160 It's actually really, really good for motility. 553 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,680 Interesting. Yeah, we see. 554 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,080 I mean, it's not old. It's not anything new now, but 555 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,240 we know that the sperm count is, you know, declining rapidly. 556 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,120 We have seen more men in clinic over the last 18 months than 557 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,880 ever really, even if they're not actually physically involved in 558 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,920 the in the process. If it's the same sex couple, for 559 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,320 example, we welcome them as well just because it's not just about 560 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,600 the individual that's going through it. 561 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,880 It's, it's all the parts that help create, you know, that baby 562 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,360 in the 1st place. So yeah, it's really, really 563 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,080 beneficial for men. And sperm count, sperm motility, 564 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,480 morphology, this, the sperm process takes roughly 70 to 90 565 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,600 days. So again, if we can work with 566 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,160 them over, that's that time. Amazing. 567 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,000 That's so interesting. And yeah, it's, it's a stressful 568 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,720 situation as well, whoever you are, whether you are the partner 569 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,480 who's, you know, physically going through something or not. 570 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,680 So yeah. We've had quite a few men and 571 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,120 it's really, really nice to see them like, oh, I just feel 572 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,960 really calm. I feel really relaxed. 573 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,800 So they do benefit from it as well. 574 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,640 And sometimes they just need that encouragement to just come 575 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,960 in. At least try a session. 576 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,480 Love it. We've touched on this, but in a 577 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,920 nutshell, what is the acupuncture focusing on? 578 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,280 Stress or something more tangible? 579 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,639 It absolutely helps stress, yes, but it does support the more 580 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:21,199 tangible things like obviously your cycle length, your 581 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:25,600 ovulation timing, your bleeding quality, like the colour, clots, 582 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,360 cramps. So if someone has painful 583 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,040 cycles, they will notice that they have much less pain 584 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,880 generally speaking in, you know, a couple of cycles because it 585 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,679 has an anti-inflammatory response in the body. 586 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,719 So yes, it's very much tangible as well. 587 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,679 And can that also benefit people who maybe have endometriosis or 588 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:47,040 something like that which is causing? 589 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,080 Yeah, acupuncture is so good for endometriosis. 590 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,840 I mean, there is no cure, so it's all about managing 591 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,520 symptoms. I see a lot of patients with 592 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,560 endo and the results that they get from acupuncture in terms of 593 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,200 their pain because that just knocks them out is amazing. 594 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:07,960 It's really, really good for that. 595 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:13,880 That's great to know. Is it possible to increase AMH 596 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:20,040 through acupuncture or stop it from drastically decreasing? 597 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,280 So we know that AMH is a marker of ovarian reserve natural 598 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,040 trends down with age. But there are some studies of 599 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,480 those with like diminished ovarian reserve where AMH can 600 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,920 increase after having regular acupuncture. 601 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,720 The evidence and the quality is mixed, but I've personally seen 602 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:42,280 it with my patients as well. Also depends on what's 603 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,600 influencing the AMH because it could be nutritional 604 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,680 deficiencies, it could be toxins, it could be blood flow. 605 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,880 But if we're just talk talking specifically blood flow because 606 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,640 acupuncture was so good for that, then yes, it is possible 607 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,920 for AMH to increase through having acupuncture. 608 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,920 But it's not our primary goal. It can just be a byproduct of 609 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,400 everything that's kind of happening. 610 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,240 The AMH as well, obviously it's a big buzzword in the fertility 611 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:09,160 world and people get frightened by it. 612 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,200 Doesn't define your ability to conceive. 613 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,600 And it's also an indication of how active and how happy the 614 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,000 follicles are as well. So the more nutrients and blood 615 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,120 flow going to the ovaries, quite often you'll see that reflected 616 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,560 in the AMH number on a piece of paper. 617 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,800 So sometimes if people's obeying reserves increased a bit after 618 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,640 working together, the follicles are generally happier. 619 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,000 Yeah, that's great. Thank you. 620 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,000 And AMH is more about your quantity of eggs and your egg 621 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,440 reserve, right, rather than your quality. 622 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,400 So we don't have. Yeah, we. 623 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,080 Can't with indication of that. No, we can't really test egg 624 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,920 quality at the moment. Yeah, interesting. 625 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,680 This is definitely a question that I've been interested in and 626 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,960 one that we've got from a lot of people is what can be the impact 627 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:05,680 of acupuncture on womb lining thickness and also progesterone 628 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,200 levels. It's used for, you know, pelvic 629 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,000 blood flow. So we'll often put needles 630 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,560 around the lower abdomen and that will increase blood flow to 631 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,840 that specific area. And that is how it's improving 632 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,000 lining thickness. I mean, it can also down 633 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,680 regulate things like inflammation that may be 634 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,360 impacting the lining as well. But then in terms of 635 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,320 progesterone, it's more about the feedback loop. 636 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,600 So we talked at the beginning of the podcast about the nervous 637 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,760 system and the communication between the brain and the 638 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,800 ovaries. So when we are performing 639 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,560 acupuncture, we are essentially recalibrating that system, which 640 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,440 has a downstream effect on your hormones. 641 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:48,080 So we're not directly impacting progesterone. 642 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,720 We're actually supporting the systems that actually support 643 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:57,360 progesterone itself. $1,000,000 Question How do you know if 644 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,120 acupuncture is working? Yeah, I mean, like I mentioned 645 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,960 daily, most people are looking for the baby and that's how they 646 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,880 measure success. However, it's really important 647 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,000 to measure the things that come before that because that shows 648 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,400 that you're going in the right direction. 649 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,760 So possibly improved surbicom, mucus karma, PMS, better sleep, 650 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,040 warmer hands and feet, less pain, less clotting, improved 651 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,800 luteal phase symptoms, you know, more consistent ovulation. 652 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,120 Those are the things that we should be looking for first. 653 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,800 Otherwise, you will feel like a failure when you get to the end 654 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,960 of the month and you're not pregnant because we know that 655 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,080 things will often come before the positive test. 656 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,240 Yeah, so interesting. You just reminded me that in our 657 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:46,440 last, my last cycle, right before we started IVF meds, so I 658 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,720 was not allowed to be, we were not allowed to be trying. 659 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:53,160 I literally had more cervical mucus than I have ever had in my 660 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,920 life. And I was like, what is going on 661 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,160 here? Which is so slow really isn't 662 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:58,440 it? I was like, why? 663 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,200 Why now? But no, it's good. 664 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,640 It's good. OK, very selfishly. 665 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,080 Final question from me, is acupuncture for IVF? 666 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,600 Generally, when is the best time to use acupuncture within an IVF 667 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,600 protocol? Ideally in an optimal world, you 668 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,440 want to be starting 12 weeks before a collection, but don't 669 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,240 panic if you find that you're already in that window. 670 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,160 Just start right away. OK, and then around transfer you 671 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,960 want to have it, you know, 24 hours either side. 672 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,960 But other than that I've. Heard about this? 673 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,000 Yeah, there is quite a lot of. Evidence around that isn't 674 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,280 there. Yeah. 675 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,120 That's great. I've got one final question and 676 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,920 that's just around those people who can't access acupuncture for 677 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,960 whatever reason. It might be location, it might 678 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,760 be cost. Obviously, as far as I know, 679 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,920 this is almost always private in the UK, isn't it? 680 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,320 Yeah, yeah. Are there any things that they 681 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,000 can do which are founded in the same principles of acupuncture 682 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,800 to support fertility if they can't access or afford to go to 683 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,800 regular acupuncture sessions? You can do acupressure at home, 684 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,000 which is essentially stimulating the same points, but you're not 685 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,280 inserting the needles. It's just more stimulation. 686 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,160 So you can, you can look on YouTube and you can look at 687 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,720 certain points and just you can massage certain points. 688 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,280 Anything that's helping to regulate the nervous system is 689 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,280 going to have a downstream positive impact on your 690 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,320 hormones. So going outside, being in 691 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,160 nature, all the boring things that we hear all of the time. 692 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,200 So if it's not affordable for you or you're not able to get 693 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,960 acupuncture, don't feel like you're missing out because there 694 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,600 are a lot of free things that you can do to support yourself. 695 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,800 Even just going for a massage or having a massage. 696 00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:59,720 I'm going to walk. Making sure you're getting your 697 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:01,120 sleep, making sure you're getting light. 698 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,200 Light is a big thing. It's a huge one. 699 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:09,400 The body actually deems no light as a stress, so if you can get 700 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,320 out in the light as well, the light actually will give a 701 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,160 signal to the hypothalamus to start making the right hormones 702 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,520 at the right times. That's brilliant. 703 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,960 And is that specifically in the morning or anytime? 704 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:23,520 In the morning is amazing because it resets the security 705 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,480 and rhythm, but just in general as well. 706 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,440 I love that. We'll definitely be sharing that 707 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,360 on socials as well. Thank you so much for today. 708 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,120 Is there anything that you want to touch on before we wrap up? 709 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:43,440 I would just love to say that don't give up because I have 710 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,920 seen a lot of patients like I mentioned earlier, who have got 711 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:53,080 their baby who had just been told no repeatedly and find 712 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,520 someone and have find Your Circle as well. 713 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,880 I have the online community. There's a lot of women in there 714 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,080 that, you know, support each other, so you just don't feel 715 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,480 like you're on your own because it can become all consuming, as 716 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,640 you probably know as well. Yeah, definitely. 717 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:13,160 It's really interesting that you said that because we are doing 718 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,400 another episode actually with Hannah Pern, A fellow paternity 719 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,000 acupuncturist, about finding your people and community when 720 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,440 it comes to facilities. Where can people find you, Kate? 721 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,240 So you can find me on Instagram at the Cheshire Acupuncturist. 722 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,120 You can go on my website, which is Cheshire acupuncturist.com. 723 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,400 I have just started a YouTube that's also the Cheshire 724 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,120 Acupuncturist. So watch this space. 725 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,040 I might do more on there soon. And then you can find the clinic 726 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,320 where at the Juniper Clinic on Instagram and you can find our 727 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,640 website juniperclinic.co.uk. That's brilliant. 728 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:55,880 We'll be posting all of those. So if you're listening or 729 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,240 watching, just have a look below and it will be there. 730 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,560 And I'm really hoping that, as we've discussed, when the sun 731 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,000 eventually shows its face, I might be able to pop in and 732 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,920 actually have a look in in real life, because it would be so 733 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,160 nice and it looks like such a lovely studio. 734 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,080 No, it's gorgeous. You're more than welcome. 735 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,560 Oh, thank you and thank you so much for your time today. 736 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,480 I hope that this helps people feel more confident in whatever 737 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,520 decision they're making about whether acupuncture is or isn't 738 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,600 right for them. Hope it helps people kind of 739 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:31,680 just understand a bit more about what they're actually doing and 740 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,280 what's happening to them. And as you say, yeah, I hope 741 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,680 that whoever's listening here who might be in that kind of 742 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,120 slightly desperate, I'll try anything phase. 743 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,080 Don't get hoodwinked into trying something because you feel like 744 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,560 you have to, because bloody hell, it can be overwhelming. 745 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,200 But take it from someone who's been doing this, if you can 746 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,640 access it and the thought of needles doesn't freak you out 747 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,760 completely, it's really worth a try because it's a lovely it's a 748 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,480 lovely hour if nothing else, and I think it might be making a 749 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,160 difference to me, and that counts for a lot. 750 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,400 Yeah. Thanks, Kate. 751 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,280 All right. Thank you so much.