1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,480 Most chefs don't realize it, but kitchens are not just stressful, 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,120 they're often times badly designed systems. 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,400 What if the hardest part of working in kitchens isn't the 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,720 food, but everything around it? You're listening to Fugitive 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,720 Chefs, a podcast about what happens when chefs step outside 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,760 the traditional kitchen path. I'm far Khan, I've worked in 7 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,760 kitchens like Noma and Mugaritz, and today I work outside 8 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,840 restaurants as a senior innovation chef, currently at 9 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,360 Kraft Heinz. Some episodes are conversations 10 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,760 with chefs building new paths, and today's episode is about 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,440 something we don't talk about enough, how kitchens actually 12 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,800 function behind the scenes. Today I'm speaking with Fabian 13 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,440 Wilshire de Chavez. Fabian started in professional 14 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,880 kitchens and studied at the Bass Gallery Center. 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 But instead of continuing down the traditional path, he moved 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,960 into research, product and startup building, working on 17 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,360 tools designed to improve how kitchens operate day-to-day. 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,280 So this conversation is not just about leaving kitchens. 19 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,480 It's about understanding what's broken inside them and what 20 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:08,680 happens when you try to fix it. So, Fabian, welcome to the 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,120 podcast. Hey, thank you. 22 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,160 So before we start getting into what you do today, Fabian, I 23 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:14,520 think it's a very interesting journey. 24 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,320 I don't think I have many. I think I've had a few people 25 00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:19,640 who've come from like building tech platforms or having 26 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,640 startups themselves. But for me, that is a very 27 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,640 interesting journey because entrepreneurship is, I feel, 28 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,920 yes, there is freedom. And there's also like, yeah, of 29 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,320 course it's freedom, but there's a lot of work to do to create 30 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:32,360 something for yourself by the same time you can set the rules. 31 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,240 But before we get there, let's start about something that we 32 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:36,960 both share, the Basque Culinary Center. 33 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,520 A lot of people go there thinking it would expand their 34 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,720 options, but many end up still in similar kitchen parts. 35 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,840 You know, so I didn't study over there, but I worked over there. 36 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,320 And during my introduction with students and understanding with 37 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,920 my colleagues who were also giving some some lectures in the 38 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,520 in the school, I realized a lot of them end up in kitchens and 39 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,800 restaurants. But for you personally, what did 40 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,040 you think your path would look like back when you were at the 41 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,560 institute? Interesting. 42 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,200 You know, at one of my first days, the professors were asking 43 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,720 us how many of you want to become chefs? 44 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:13,920 And I think 80% of the people were starting, I think 100 45 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,440 students. And 80% of the students were 46 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,200 saying, yeah, I want to become a chef. 47 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,920 And then in the fourth year, they were asking the question 48 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:26,600 again, Yeah, Now after like, three, 3 1/2 years, like, how 49 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,840 many of you still want to become a chef? 50 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,600 And I think it dropped down to 20%. 51 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,320 Wow. That is a big number now. 52 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,920 Which number were you in? Were you in that 20% group or 53 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:40,000 where were you at that at that fourth year, the first year? 54 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,560 Also, I've been interested about where. 55 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,360 Where did you raise your hand? Yeah, yeah, Actually, the first 56 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,640 year I, I wasn't sure. I was not sure at all. 57 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,560 I joined the Bus Culinary Centre specifically because it wasn't 58 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,680 interdisciplinary kind of study, right? 59 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,480 You could learn how to cook, you could learn how to serve, how to 60 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,200 bake, and so all the practical parts of gastronomy. 61 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,480 But at the same time, it was all about understanding the other 62 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,040 side. So the theory part of it, 63 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,120 gastronomy may have been food science, A history of 64 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,240 gastronomy, communication, psychology, right? 65 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,720 We had so many different aspects and where we could learn about 66 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,200 gastronomy from different perspectives. 67 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,240 And that was really why I chose the study of gastronomy and 68 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,720 culinary arts, because I wanted to understand gastronomy from 69 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,400 different perspectives and then find my way through that study. 70 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,920 So yeah. And then at the end, I didn't 71 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:36,720 end up to be a chef. I worked in Fitchens a lot. 72 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,760 I did a lot of internships in kitchens all over the world. 73 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,200 I, I worked in, in Lima, in Bologna, here in Italy, in 74 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,960 Copenhagen, in Germany, in Berlin. 75 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,000 So yeah, I, I did, I did a lot of internships and I've thought 76 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,360 it was super, super interesting. But I think around, maybe after 77 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,960 two years, I noticed, okay, maybe working in kitchens as a 78 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,080 chef is not my not my profession. 79 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,320 And why? Why did the interest get into 80 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,520 food systems or innovation? Yeah. 81 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,000 How did that start? Like did that come later after 82 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,520 finishing or it's some lecture from the school itself for some 83 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,160 experience that opened you to that part? 84 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,640 Well, it's, it's also going back. 85 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,360 So, so I, when I was 16, I moved from Germany to Lima. 86 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,400 My father is Peruvian and I lived a couple of years in Lima, 87 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,520 in Peru. And this changed from German 88 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,320 food culture, food habits to Lima, right, where I was also 89 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,680 part of the family. And then the traditional food 90 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,880 and eating. It was very, I think, very 91 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,480 impactful for me. It's just the love that people 92 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,320 have for cooking and for eating and for going out to restaurant. 93 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,120 It was just, it's a completely different food culture they have 94 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,280 over there. And I think that that shaped me 95 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:47,040 a lot. Afterwards, I went back to 96 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,760 Germany. I studied actually political and 97 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,680 social science and finished a Batchelor in in that area. 98 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,480 But then I thought I, I want to do something with food and 99 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,160 gastronomy. I didn't know what exactly, but 100 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,200 I really wanted to, to learn more about it. 101 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,440 And that is why I joined the Bus Culinary Center. 102 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,440 And I quickly learned that I'm more interested into innovation 103 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,600 and management of restaurants, hospitality in general, then, 104 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:15,280 yeah, then practical part of being a chef. 105 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,760 And during this time in the kitchen, because that is I think 106 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,040 the plus that you have right, because there could be somebody 107 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,960 designing, say, a similar product to yours or coming up 108 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,560 with technological solutions. Because I think now with the age 109 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,880 of AI especially skills are, I wouldn't say undervalued, but 110 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,040 there are people who can compete more with the ideas of a product 111 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,320 more than how skillful they are at building their product 112 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:36,640 because that part can be replaced. 113 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,360 But with you having this background of kitchens being 114 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,080 around others also, I think that's a big value of it to be 115 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,920 around people who are also maybe some of your colleagues end up 116 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,160 in kitchen, some of them end up in as a familiar. 117 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,400 And then having, yeah, food culture of Lima. 118 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,760 I mean, Lima has already been an example. 119 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,680 Peru itself been an example of how gastro diplomacy can work 120 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,640 and how Peruvian cuisine has seen the rise of it. 121 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,240 So having all this context, where did you see like the room 122 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,400 like before moving into research, what did you notice 123 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,280 that about kitchens, how they function, what was inefficient? 124 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,200 Within there, yeah. So I think the, I remember 1 125 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,880 very, very specific moment, right. 126 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,440 I was doing an internship for three months in close to Italy 127 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,360 in a small city at a Ron Michelin Stead restaurant. 128 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,280 Lovely place, very small like kitchen. 129 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:29,080 We were 88 chefs small less and but so hard the work like on the 130 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,760 weekends we had two shifts right in the morning and in the 131 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:37,240 afternoon and it was so hot like 40° and it was just about 132 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:38,960 lovely. I mean, the, the work 133 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,000 environment I've chosen for my kitchens were mostly pretty 134 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,560 good. So I'm, I think I'm lucky on 135 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,200 that part, right? So amazing, amazing chefs, 136 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,920 amazing team. But we were working like 137 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,880 non-stop, non-stop, non-stop. And at one point I, I was there 138 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,640 in the kitchen having a little break and seeing how then our 139 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,600 sous chef, Maria, she was sitting on the ground and she 140 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,400 was taking notes, right? It was after the, after the, the 141 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,640 service and she was taking notes and probably thinking about, OK, 142 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,520 what do we do for the next day? What do we need to order? 143 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,240 What do we need to prepare? What, what we have, right? 144 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,720 And she was just sitting on the ground and seemed so tired. 145 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,960 I was asking myself that I, I, I mean, I, I didn't do all the 146 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,120 planning, right. You need to have so you need to 147 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:30,680 do so, so much planning in order to run a smooth kitchen, but 148 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,320 it's the same time you're working all the time. 149 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,920 So I was asking myself, how can she now make a precise planning 150 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,120 for for the next days? And if you don't do it good, you 151 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,960 are in the shit again the next days, right? 152 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,960 You know this. And she was sitting there and I 153 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,280 was like, that's not possible. I don't know how how like, how 154 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,080 is this even possible? And that there was the moment 155 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,080 when kind of the idea started mad like, how can we improve 156 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,480 this? How, how's it possible to do 157 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,680 something new? So it's a little bit easier for, 158 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,440 for chefs, for kitchen teams to, to run operations. 159 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,480 And because I, I thought it was just crazy. 160 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,920 Yeah. Afterwards I was, I was doing my 161 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,000 bachelor's thesis in the bus culinary Centre about chefs and 162 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,760 the development of student chefs. 163 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,760 So I studied it from a social science perspective, how student 164 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,200 chefs are developing during their time and what kind of 165 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,320 external, internal things are influencing them. 166 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,040 So how are their skills developing? 167 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,400 But what, what is influencing their, their learning? 168 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,200 And I did it together with the Copenhagen Hospitality College 169 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,000 in Denmark. So, and I did like, yeah, a 170 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,400 social science study where I went to four different kitchens 171 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,400 in Copenhagen, Micheline State kitchens, but also normal, 172 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,200 normal kitchens. And I, I worked with the chefs, 173 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,000 I studied them, I observed them and it afterwards I did 174 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,440 interviews with them. And that way I, I really also 175 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,760 got more of an understanding of what is influencing student 176 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,000 chefs in their learning curve, but also what is happening in 177 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,680 kitchens. And it helped me a lot to 178 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:07,720 understand better that that planning and and I mean, also 179 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,080 leadership and communication is one of the is 1, one of the 180 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,560 biggest things and and this you cannot put in technology and 181 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,280 then say, and now leadership and and communication is good. 182 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,080 Now that doesn't work. That's another that's another 183 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,440 thing. But I think, yeah, there were 184 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,600 that was the moment worth. OK, let's try to develop a new 185 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,760 technology that helps. Yeah, that's super interesting. 186 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,640 What do you say? Because I feel a lot of learning 187 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,120 in kitchen is especially very unstructured. 188 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,360 It's it, I'm not saying it's not of value, but it's it's 189 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,600 definitely of value what you learn and you see the progress 190 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,280 in people's career. But it's a little bit yeah, 191 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,480 unambiguous on how that progresses. 192 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,000 How does like does a student share for somebody learning pass 193 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,920 through phases of learning? Does it go? 194 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:49,880 How influenced is it by the environment? 195 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,960 How is it by their own aptitude for things? 196 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,440 So I think it's super interesting what you've done 197 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,360 that work. And I bet that has translated 198 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,240 into some of the project that you do now. 199 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,960 So now let's dive into your building Remy. 200 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,600 Now tell us about Remy. For somebody who doesn't say 201 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,800 somebody who knows kitchens and is is is say some somebody who's 202 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,640 sort of old school doesn't really understand why technology 203 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,520 would be in kitchens, feels intimidated by products like 204 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,600 these, how would you explain? Remi, what problem are you 205 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,120 trying to solve? Yeah. 206 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,800 So Remi is an app that is built as a kitchen operations app that 207 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,440 would help chefs and kitchen teams with planning their days 208 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,480 and daily work. So it's basically a the digital 209 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,280 notebook. You could say it like this. 210 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,720 It helps with all the lists, it helps with a Nissan Plus prep 211 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,000 lists itself with a structured way of having the recipes, the 212 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,560 menu all in one place and having it all connected. 213 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:45,280 Again, there are a lot of practical things you could say 214 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,760 about this. So for example, in kitchens, 215 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,280 when you are new in the kitchen, you need to do a new recipe and 216 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,120 the chef starts you, hey, yeah, do this, this recipe and you 217 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,000 find one recipe multiple times. So you don't know which recipe 218 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,840 to do. It's very, very simple thing, 219 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,280 right? But you find it like there. 220 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,120 And then you say, OK, but what is the correct one? 221 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,600 You don't know about South starting with this, having a 222 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,080 central centralized base of recipes where it's very clear 223 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,480 what you need to do and not having so many different nodes 224 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:16,680 flying around the kitchen. Simple is 1 simple thing that 225 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,240 Remy is trying to solve, but it's the same plan. 226 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,840 Remy tries to connect what is in the recipe to what comes after. 227 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,880 So the prepping, the planning of the next days, the order list so 228 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,560 it all connects in one system, so it's easier to to plan ahead 229 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,200 and to plan the days properly. Yeah. 230 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,760 And that's that's so interesting. 231 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,360 But but I think it has to be like so multifaceted to build a 232 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,480 thing like Remy because again, every kitchen somehow has this 233 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,480 rules that work for them. I think there's of course, 234 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:43,960 there's a line that connects all of them. 235 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:45,880 And in the end, you're all planning, you're on the end all 236 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,520 cooking, you're all purchasing, you're all doing inventory in 237 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,080 some way or the other, But they all have these small systems 238 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,680 within them. I think what you're doing is 239 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,080 trying to streamline all of that, remove the clutter and 240 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,800 make it like a funnel where everything does connect to each 241 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,600 other. But during this observation, 242 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,720 Fabian, how much of it do you think when people say, you know, 243 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,040 the life in a kitchen is tough, how much of it do you think is 244 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,720 the physical pressure of the job that of course you have to work 245 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,520 at the weekend because somebody wants to the weekend, which are 246 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,200 obvious facts? And how much of it comes from 247 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,080 badly designed systems, the kind of solution that you are 248 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,560 providing and many companies are providing to be it your 249 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:22,880 ordering, be it your vendor management, whatever that is. 250 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,000 So what would you say the balance between realistically 251 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,880 kitchen being a tough job plus the added layer of the systems 252 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,560 being badly designed which don't make it easier either? 253 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,520 Well, it's a good question. What is the, what is the 254 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,480 balance? So I think 11 very, very big 255 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,600 part is, and again, this comes from my research I did for chefs 256 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,720 especially, Yeah, young chefs, right? 257 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:48,440 I, I, I, I talked to a lot of young student chefs, 1618 years 258 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,480 old coming to kitchens and just love cooking and love creating 259 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,840 food and creating this. Yeah. 260 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,160 Going to very, very high end kitchens and want to learn and, 261 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,520 and observed at the beginning and then at the end. 262 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,640 And what stood out is that, yeah, the people skills at the 263 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,360 end of the day, right? What you experience in the 264 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,080 kitchen at the very first from your head chef, from your sous 265 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,400 chef, how much working hours you do. 266 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,360 Sometimes it's 12 hours a day and then you do it for the whole 267 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,000 summer season. So three months. 268 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,840 This is just something that is, I mean, this breaks everyone. 269 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,960 I'm sorry, but this really breaks everyone. 270 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,600 And no, this is not for my technology. 271 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,520 This, this no one can can really can really survive something 272 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,080 like this, especially if you're young and then you break dreams 273 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,200 of this. So this is not something that 274 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,240 directly can be changed, but I think it's, it's a process. 275 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,440 So yes, having new tools in kitchens, having better planning 276 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,800 tools in kitchens, so it's easier to plan and having less 277 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,240 things to think about. At the end of the day, you need 278 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,720 to do your prep list for the next day, and if you need to 279 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,880 write it down, you cannot see it correctly. 280 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,120 So there are small things that you can improve. 281 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,720 Yeah, with better technology. It's not like changing any, like 282 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,840 everything at the same time, but I think it's small steps that 283 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,920 can help chefs during that day. And I think that is already 284 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,160 something that I went to after my studies in Bascarina Center. 285 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,720 I went to Denmark to follow my idea to create a startup and, 286 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,440 and, and solve the problem. Right. 287 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,400 You were asking me before you, what are you, why are you 288 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,000 interested in entrepreneurship? And I would say I was never like 289 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,600 really hyped about entrepreneurship, but it was 290 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,600 more about, OK, I, I see a very, very big problem and I, I wanna, 291 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,640 I wanna, I wanna change it. I'm gonna solve it. 292 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:35,360 I wanna solve the problem, right? 293 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,640 That is what I was thinking. And I knew, OK, I can solve a 294 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,320 problem maybe with a new technology. 295 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,880 And that is why I went into building a startup, not because 296 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,360 I thought it's cool to have a startup and it's 297 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,920 entrepreneurship is cool because it's it's very tough as well. 298 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,520 And I feel it is, it is of course, this imbalance between 299 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:54,960 the reality of things being tough. 300 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,560 And then I mean, you can either you can keep going deeper into 301 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,880 how tough that is or you can make these small steps. 302 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,440 And of course, I think it's way of you to say that not all 303 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,760 technology, I think it's also correct factually that not 304 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,440 technology cannot solve. There are problems that soft 305 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,880 skills or people management these things, technology will 306 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,400 not give you space like give you the tools for, but I think it 307 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,200 can give you the space for if your day-to-day like organizing 308 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,840 tasks or planning is managed by by say technology streamlining 309 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,320 it. You have more time, of course, 310 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,960 to give to your staff to have more one to one meetings with 311 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,040 the young people joining your team. 312 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,720 So I feel it does indirectly give more space to solve the 313 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,400 problem that technology cannot solve. 314 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,960 So I feel that's, that's where I feel companies like you come 315 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,440 handy because you are optimizing, making things more 316 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,960 efficient, saving time, which indirectly then helps the other 317 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,200 way around, you know, so, so for me, I, you also touched slightly 318 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,080 the next question I had for you, which was that a lot of chefs 319 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,000 think that building something is freedom. 320 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,120 That because at the end, when you're building something, 321 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,200 however difficult it is, you are doing something that connects to 322 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,600 your vision, to your purpose. It's something that drives you 323 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,120 passionately. If not, I think you should not 324 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,720 be an entrepreneurship if you do not, are not driven by the idea, 325 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,600 right? But building a startup is a 326 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,000 different kind of pressure, I believe, because like, what has 327 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,080 been for you harder than you expected? 328 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,320 Because there are parts of it that you can foresee that will 329 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,200 be difficult fundraising or building a team or whatever that 330 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:14,840 is. But what are the things that you 331 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,280 expected to be a little easier, but they were harder in in in 332 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,440 real life? Yeah, I think something yeah, 333 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,360 was so I did the, I did a study in my master's in Copenhagen and 334 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,120 did what the master was technology entrepreneurship. 335 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,280 And the whole master was to create a startup, right. 336 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,960 So the master was about finding your idea and create a startup, 337 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,480 find your team and bring the solution to the market. 338 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,920 That was the setting. And I of course came with my 339 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,200 idea for for Emmy into that study. 340 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,800 And I noticed during the study that that many people have so 341 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,520 many great ideas and there was a lot of investments and interest 342 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:59,080 in startups that solve, yeah, very problems in sustainability 343 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,160 problems, in health tech problems. 344 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,880 And there are special areas where you find a lot of 345 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,240 investors and people interested in giving you money for it. 346 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,160 And when when I was in, my team was trying to also make people 347 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,079 interested into our solution, try to tell them the the 348 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,680 problem, the big problem. Also, when you think about like 349 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,880 chefs and restaurants, like it's a huge, it's a huge, huge market 350 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,560 and it's a huge problem, right. It was a bit hard for us to to 351 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,720 really get this interest. And maybe that has to do with 352 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,520 with the industry that yeah, it's, it's still considered as a 353 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,560 entertainment industry, kind of restaurants ride and food and 354 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,280 going out. And so that was a bit tough to 355 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,760 just also noticed at the beginning that is that is not 356 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,840 so, so much interested in the solution in general when it 357 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,720 comes to the to the investment world, men startup world. 358 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,400 But yeah, as you said, like building a team is I think it's 359 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,720 everything at the beginning because you cannot do it at all. 360 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,800 You need people around you, you who help you and also have 361 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,840 different skills, right? I am not a coder, A programmer. 362 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,200 And, and this is the core technologies that we are 363 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,920 building. We are building the software. 364 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,480 So I needed to, I needed to connect and collaborate and work 365 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,920 with very highly skilled tech people. 366 00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:15,880 Otherwise it wouldn't, it wouldn't go. 367 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,680 So finding the people that also also that's also the same area, 368 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,800 right? Coders or programmers that are 369 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,800 interested in such a solution for kitchen, kitchens and chefs 370 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,600 is not they're not so many like most are interested in, I don't 371 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,080 know, making the next big AI software tool and making money 372 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,280 with that, right? And I'm not saying that that's 373 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,840 bad or anything, but just saying that's the reality that they're 374 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,160 not too many what I experienced that are interested. 375 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,680 So yeah, that was kind of tough to to see at the beginning 376 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,800 because I thought the problem is huge. 377 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,160 Like how like everyone knows about it. 378 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,200 You, you also know about like the working conditions and that 379 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,200 the tradition that the working processes and kitchens are so 380 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,160 old and like, and it's an industry and it's a profession 381 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,480 that is, has been with us for so many years. 382 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,320 When you think about chefs and restaurants and kitchen teams, 383 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,520 it's a profession that has been there for so, so, so many years. 384 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,120 And, and not really a lot of innovations when it comes to 385 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:14,960 working processes have been made. 386 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,440 Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's 387 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,440 surprising and I think it's, it's underestimated and not 388 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,840 taken seriously enough, as you said, just because it's part of 389 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,040 the entertainment industry. Yeah, it's been a blue collar 390 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,160 job traditionally. So I think that is why the 391 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,800 seriousness lacks to be able to see that this can be optimized 392 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,960 by technology or by building systems rather than just working 393 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,400 hard. You know, this is this, this 394 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,360 this friction between these two worlds where you don't obviously 395 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,680 think technology would be the right fit for it. 396 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,480 But from your perspective now while building this, this the 397 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,800 solution, why do you think most kitchens are still operating the 398 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,440 way they are? Is it largely because of 399 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,280 culture? Is it because lack of tools? 400 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,600 Is it because they do not know another way and that nobody is 401 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,280 really questioning how things are done? 402 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,320 Why do you think people are still operating the way they 403 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,440 are? I think different factors. 404 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,920 So one, yes, you said it's it's kind of mentality, which is I 405 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,040 think it's shifting. It's I mean not everywhere. 406 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,480 I don't know when you I talked to David the other day and. 407 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,440 And David, and of course in, in Latin America, you have a very, 408 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,520 very different perspective and very, very different culture, 409 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,520 right? Also in, in kitchen culture than 410 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,120 in Europe. And you go in, I don't know, 411 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,960 Zurich or Copenhagen, right? It's, it's a different thing, 412 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,160 but I think it is shifting that young chefs are wanting to work 413 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,120 differently and they wanna use newer technologies for their 414 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,960 work. They have used to it, right. 415 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,480 They use their phone and the computers all day every day. 416 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,040 So for them it's very easy to to handle it. 417 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,400 But the other hand is of course it is kitchen environment is an 418 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,920 environment which is super, super hectical. 419 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,880 So they are not so, so many moments where you are using your 420 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,120 phone or, or I don't pen and paper right in order to, to 421 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,800 track something. So there are these are small 422 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,200 moments and it's a very, very hectic and fast-paced 423 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,600 environment where a kitchen or where technology solutions are 424 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,880 need to work very intuitive and fast. 425 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,680 If not, you won't use it. I think you could compare it a 426 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,760 little bit with hospitals, hospital technology like 427 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,640 medicine people, they also need to track down and document 428 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,560 everything they do. But it's hard to to use the 429 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,320 technology that people are developing for them because they 430 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,720 have those structures and it's everything so fast. 431 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,080 They need to react so fast that they don't really think about 432 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,400 something new, but just do it the way they always did it, 433 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,840 right? But they need to do it. 434 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,200 And I guess it's a bit similar. You can compare parallels here 435 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,040 to kitchen environments where it's just hard to it's just also 436 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,240 hard to try something new. We are struggling, like 437 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,200 struggling. But we knew this challenge that 438 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,600 OK, when you develop a new technology for this environment 439 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,040 for chefs and kitchen teams that they even testing it and trying 440 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,360 it out, get them to test it and try it out and leave, leave 441 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:49,840 their own system, right? They have a system they use and 442 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,400 they don't want to change it. This first step is what we are 443 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,640 now trying to to overcome, right? 444 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,080 It's the first step. But this is this is super hard. 445 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,040 And every chef we have been working with and testing with, I 446 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,640 mean, it is amazing that they do it because I, I know this 447 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,800 struggle as well, especially also for head chefs. 448 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,560 I mean, I have never been a head chef or so, but yeah, they want 449 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,120 to plan everything well. And of course they know it's not 450 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,280 working well, but it's so hard for them to test. 451 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,920 When you go to another, when you try to develop another software 452 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,440 solution, you have just people sitting on the computer the 453 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,160 whole day and yeah, OK, it's no problem. 454 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,120 Then you can just test something new, right? 455 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,520 There's no problem at all. But in kitchens? 456 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,520 Yeah, they're not the most receptive people. 457 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,600 Like they're yeah, they're very used to what they are and they 458 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,960 do not want to question it. And I think it also comes again, 459 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,920 because of, I think this is the amount of time availability to 460 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,200 learn the technological drawback with not being that advanced 461 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,640 with the younger chefs. Of course, we have that 462 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,960 opportunity. And then the physical challenges 463 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,880 of you being close to things which are more dangerous like 464 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,640 pans and fryers and your hands being greasy. 465 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,280 There's so many layers to it. And I feel, yeah, it's it's very 466 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,800 difficult to penetrate this market. 467 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,640 There are there are good examples who have done it. 468 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,240 And I feel it's always through things that are not good to 469 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,640 have, but a must have. And that is a basic friction, 470 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,520 right? How do you make a product a must 471 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,800 have and make it so obvious that it becomes irreplaceable of 472 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,400 sorts for you? What is that? 473 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,960 Do you think your background from be having been in kitchens 474 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,480 helps you or what are the tricks that you use when you 475 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,200 communicate with chefs about technology? 476 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,000 Or do you like read them how much they know and you change 477 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,560 your language of sorts? Like how is this? 478 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,280 I just want to understand basically how is your approach 479 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,920 to entering these these environments and pitching 480 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,480 something that you're building which is better for them? 481 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,640 How do you convince them? Yeah, yeah, it's good. 482 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,320 So at the beginning, it's like a prototyping process, you know, 483 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,080 when you build a product. At the beginning, we were just, 484 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:43,320 I was very lucky that I had a big network of chefs that I knew 485 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,200 and I wanted and I approached them and they were open for it. 486 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,920 As I said, there are chefs who are open for something new, so 487 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,760 testing with them, trying with them out. 488 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,840 Like doing interviews, right? Talking to them, trying to 489 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,480 understand their problems, what is happening on a daily basis, 490 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,960 giving them the solution, let them try it out, doing 491 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,000 interviews, observing how they use it or not. 492 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,400 This is, I think, the key to to develop this technology, like 493 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,960 really immersing yourself with the users, with the environment, 494 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,200 understand the environment and the users, and then develop the 495 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,160 product for this. And this is of course, as I 496 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,240 said, challenging because chefs have no time, I have no time for 497 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:23,960 this. So you really need to follow, we 498 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,240 really need to find the users, the early adapter users who with 499 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,640 us together develop this solution. 500 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,040 Because otherwise, if I just develop, develop and make the 501 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,240 coolest thing, but not with the user in mind and not with really 502 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,000 having their opinions, interviews and observation about 503 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,720 them, it will not work. So it's really about immersing 504 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,200 yourself in the environment, talking to the people, trying 505 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,200 them really to give you feedback and feedback and feedback that 506 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,880 you then can create this. What you said like must have 507 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,040 technology that would then make them use it. 508 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,200 Yeah. And and that's, that's also 509 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,000 interesting for the next question that I had for you 510 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,920 because kitchens are changing and the way you are gauging 511 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,120 this, I guess you're putting some sort of future proofing 512 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,200 into this because the product you're creating, of course 513 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,200 you're piloting this, I believe or testing this with with users. 514 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,160 But then again, the reality of kitchen is changing, right. 515 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,720 I have like I myself being in an environment where yes, I work as 516 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,120 a corporate chef today and of course within Kraft Heinz there 517 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,400 I was like, there's all levels of chefs, you know, and we have 518 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,400 like these trainings like this week we had a training about the 519 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,120 tools with AI that we can use because we have a lot of 520 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,000 confidential stuff. We cannot use all the usual chat 521 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,200 GPTS and Gemini. So we have our own models which 522 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,360 we can use. And there in these trainings, 523 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:32,680 you see that how there is a lot of different level of chefs, the 524 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,440 ones who are more digital native, less digital native. 525 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,440 And then you somehow have to bring on the same board and try 526 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,680 to convince them about the same solutions like say building an 527 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,480 agent on how to write a prompt, the basic things like that. 528 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,960 How do you see if you zoom out Fabian and and leave, leave Remy 529 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,160 outside and like just think about a future of kitchens in 530 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,800 the next 5 to 10 years and and five to 10 years is a lot of 531 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,320 time because what's happening with Anthropic? 532 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,400 We have a one new product every week. 533 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,000 So how do you see kitchens evolving is like more tech, less 534 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,840 people, different roles, capabilities. 535 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,440 How do you how's your general vision of five to 10 years of 536 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,600 kitchens? How are they changing? 537 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,200 So I think one general observation I have is that it 538 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,640 will develop in two ways, right? You have convenience, 539 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,520 convenience kitchens, convenience food and then you 540 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,840 have the more fine dining restaurant line. 541 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,600 And yeah, and I think the convenience restaurant food line 542 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:32,120 will be more digitized, more or so robotics, more, more, more, 543 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,160 more, more, more tech technologized because it's just 544 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,120 putting out food, food and food, right? 545 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,440 It's had a lot of food. And then the other hand will be 546 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,360 more about craft craftsmanship, because I see in all this what 547 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:47,160 is happening right now, right? AI and, and everything what is 548 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,960 happening, I see a, a counter movement and movement that is 549 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,960 going against and say, hey, no, we want craftsmanship, real 550 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,360 craftsmanship. We want to to preserve this 551 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:01,520 because we, it's important and and it's also highly, highly 552 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,720 valued. So I think craftsmanship, 553 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,160 cooking, the craft of cooking will play a very, very important 554 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,160 role and will also improve, I think. 555 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:14,840 So I see those 22 lines and, and I mean, machines have been in 556 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,320 kitchens now for a longer time, right? 557 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,840 TAMO mixer is doing super clear things, right? 558 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,800 The technology and kitchens have been there already longer time 559 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,160 and it will get better I think. And also with technologies like 560 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,080 any improving planning, improving work processes, maybe 561 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,560 we do it or maybe another companies do it, but someone 562 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,680 will crack the code and improve it. 563 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,640 But yeah, in general, I see these two lines, convenience 564 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,040 where there's more and more and more robotic technology and then 565 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,760 the real craftsmanship of cooking where this the 566 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,680 experience is maybe also getting even a different. 567 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,200 Yeah. I think that's very interesting 568 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,960 and I feel that looks also very positive. 569 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,480 And if you look at it from that lens, because then again, it 570 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,560 puts priorities and budgets and reasons to believe and and how 571 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,280 investments should be made, how much man hours should be within 572 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,080 these environments very much justified. 573 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,360 Because of course those who can pay the price should have people 574 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,600 who are rotational staff or whatever that is and 575 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,160 inconvenience where you really do not want that much of 576 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,160 Craftsman surface repeatable tasks. 577 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,080 If we can sort of not make technology replace it in a way, 578 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,560 but it's just giving more breathing room to create a 579 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,440 better environment for kitchens, which I feel that is what all 580 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,400 categories of for restaurants or hospitality food service in 581 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,880 general is struggling with, be it the McDonald's or be it the 582 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,560 the fancy restaurants of the world. 583 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,600 I feel that's the friction they're dealing with. 584 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,680 And I think technology can be a great tool to be able to 585 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,520 channelize the energy and not not have to compromise the 586 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,360 diners experience. So for me, that's interesting in 587 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,000 Fabian. And, and when you look back at 588 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,280 your journey, Fabian personally sitting right now, building a 589 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,160 product, pitching it to consumers. 590 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,520 And, and so different right from the first day that you entered 591 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,880 basket center or first day that it's hot at thinking as food as 592 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,840 a career for yourself. What do you think that you 593 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,040 understand now about kitchens that you did not understand when 594 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,080 you were inside them? Because sometimes it's also like 595 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,200 zooming out or seeing things from the outside makes something 596 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,760 so obvious. And then you're like, OK, why 597 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,120 can't the people inside see it where I can see it from the 598 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,720 outside? So within yourself, what is this 599 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,720 change that you've seen that you believe more in that you could 600 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,040 not see when you were inside them? 601 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,680 That's a good question. I mean, I think that when you're 602 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,640 in it in the kitchen and you just working and, and it's hard 603 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,160 to see that how you, how you build maybe a sustainable 604 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,640 career. For me, it was very hard to see. 605 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,680 And, and this is has nothing to do now with me not being at the 606 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,040 end of the day, not being a passionate chef because it was 607 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,680 not, not my thing, but just seeing that how can I maintain 608 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,040 this, this work for, for, for more years. 609 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,560 So it was very, very hard. But back then I also thought, 610 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,400 yeah, it should be possible, but it should be possible that you 611 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,880 just, you just love craft and you love cooking and it should 612 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,560 be possible that you do it for 20-30 years. 613 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,040 I think so. And I also met some chefs who 614 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,280 did it for so long. The restaurant in Italy where 615 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,200 there was this one guy, Drago is named, he worked there for 25 616 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,560 years, was the same station, the same state, and he was happy. 617 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,760 And so, so I think it is, it is possible and, and, and, and we 618 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,840 should work for, for this goal, right? 619 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,280 To, to create environments that are sustainable. 620 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,040 So people can just love what they do for, for a long time. 621 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,760 And yeah, not always they do it for so many years. 622 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,120 But, and, and you can also change your, your profession 623 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,960 afterwards, when you're a chef afterwards. 624 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,560 You learned so many, I learned so many things in kitchens. 625 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,800 So it should not be seen as, yeah, I said, I don't know, it's 626 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,680 like, Oh no, I'm in kitchen. And it should be seen as 627 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,600 something, OK, something beautiful where you can learn a 628 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,200 lot, where you can learn leadership, communication 629 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,280 skills. But this is only possible, I 630 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,360 think, if the working environments allow it, right? 631 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,720 If you have people in your kitchens who are just behind 632 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,320 your back all the time and negative and it's just a 633 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,080 psychology terror all the time, you will not learn, you will 634 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,280 burn, you will not learn. This is for this is for sure, 635 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,840 you will not learn. So the environments really can 636 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,920 give this power of learning and striving and building a 637 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,800 sustainable career path. I think, and this is what I see 638 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,920 now from the outside, that we need to work on improving and 639 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,400 helping. I feel 100% I feel a lot of time 640 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:19,760 kitchens. I completely agree with you that 641 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,480 in kitchens you see that somehow passion is confused for egoistic 642 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,840 behaviors or stepping on other people or not not not letting 643 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,800 people have the room to be able to be themselves and being being 644 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,320 individuals who have an innate skill or innate want or have to 645 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,720 express their own self through their work. 646 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,480 I feel kitchens not all kitchens. 647 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,080 I think there are great examples which have fostered that 648 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,520 behavior and they are the ones I feel who have the staff that 649 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,680 stays longer than the average of this industry, you know, and I 650 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,000 feel that's where it becomes a little solitary. 651 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,920 And which is why we also need environments where maybe outside 652 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,000 of work or within work, you can have room to be able to speak 653 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,800 about it or listen to others who have gone through it. 654 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,120 So for me, that's, that's very interesting. 655 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,000 And that's again, the purpose of the podcast. 656 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,360 Also, what we are building like what you described just now, I 657 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,720 feel this gap of the idea of how a job should be and how it is 658 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,640 currently. I feel it's something that we 659 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,880 speak a lot about in the conversation within Fugitive 660 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,200 Chef Circle, which is the community that we creating and 661 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,760 people feel the friction, but they don't always have the 662 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,520 either the tool or the language for it. 663 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,600 And somehow we try to make these small groups where people are 664 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,720 trying to say, do a pop up by themselves on how can somebody 665 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,080 else help them to maybe create the menu or go through the 666 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,960 struggles of having to work alone apart from your 667 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,080 restaurant. I feel that's that's where a lot 668 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,960 of yeah, a lot of work is to be done on creating this community 669 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,920 environment where not just within mind, but. 670 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,960 And there are a lot of communities happening right now 671 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,280 where people feel that maybe within the kitchen and the 672 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,200 environment, they don't have the space to be themselves or even 673 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,360 express the problems they have. And, and they should have some, 674 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,840 some place where they can at least breathe and, and, and 675 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,280 express that. And from there, build upon ideas 676 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,120 or technologies or working environments or whatever the 677 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,560 solution is like, like the one that you're sharing over here, 678 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,200 right? So before we let you go, Fabian 679 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,480 has been a really good conversation. 680 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,320 But if any chef is listening right now and they feel 681 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,040 something is off in their kitchen, right? 682 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,680 For you, it was the gap in how planning can make the whole 683 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,480 system fail. So for them, they have this, 684 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,120 they feel that something is off. They know what that something 685 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,880 is, but they don't really know what direction to like. 686 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,560 How do you, how does one start before they decide, okay, I need 687 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,640 to be an entrepreneur so I want to go for a master or go find a 688 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,800 mentor. What is the first step that 689 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,160 somebody could do before going through all those? 690 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,400 All those problems, yeah, I think taking also taking a step 691 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,880 back and, and just leaving a bit of room to try to understand, 692 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,920 OK, what is happening right now in my life and how are different 693 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,480 things impacting what I'm doing right now? 694 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,080 Giving yourself room. It's a general thing, but I 695 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,320 don't know, I I did also a lot of kind of changes in my life 696 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,680 and but I also I always followed what I really love to do and I'm 697 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,200 not being scared. If there's something you want to 698 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,160 do, don't be scared about it to OK, I will fail or I cannot do 699 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,240 this because this is something that are doing, but I cannot do 700 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,600 is like this. I think this is something very 701 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,080 important is also in general, like don't be scared of failing 702 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,280 or trying something out. It should be really about doing 703 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,840 what you think is good for you and you love to do and not not 704 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,560 be scared about what others would say. 705 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:22,320 It's more of a general, yeah, I would say recommendation, but in 706 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,880 my perspective, it helped me. And I, I'm, I was, yeah, I'm not 707 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,480 this outgoing guy, right? But it helped me to learn a lot 708 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,080 when I was just doing the things that I, that I love and like and 709 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,679 then stepping out of my comfort zone and not scared about what 710 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,199 others think. It helped me to learn a lot. 711 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,400 Yeah, no, definitely. I feel it's it can be 712 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,199 intimidating, this journey. I feel having an idea that, you 713 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,080 know, works. But how do you pitch it and how 714 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,040 do you get your best self out? So I think it's yeah, it's a 715 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,320 very good advice. I feel it's like, yeah, scaring 716 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,960 should not be your thing that stops you first, maybe failing 717 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,800 or like having those lessons learned. 718 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,480 I feel that could be somewhere you can pivot or do the idea 719 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,080 again. But being scared, I feel, and 720 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,200 not testing and just having this idea, I feel it's an injustice 721 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,200 to your own dreams or ideas. Right. 722 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:11,520 Yeah. And yeah. 723 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,080 Thank you so much for this time. I think this conversation, 724 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,800 usually the conversations is about what else is outside 725 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,560 kitchens. But I feel this one with you, it 726 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,800 it shifts. It's shifts the focus because 727 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,440 it's not just about surviving kitchens, like most people can 728 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,400 give you advice about how can you survive kitchens and then 729 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,360 make this last for longer. Yours is mostly most more about 730 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,400 actually questioning how they're designed and how can you rework 731 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,560 and, and, and that's the tool that you come up with, right. 732 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,160 So thank you so much for being on the podcast. 733 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,400 It's been such a pleasure to have you on. 734 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,000 Thank you so much for. If you're listening and this 735 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,640 resonated with you, follow the podcast, rate it or share it 736 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,520 with someone who might need to hear this. 737 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:49,760 Because sometimes the problem isn't you, it's the system.