I'm Brandon. And I'm Jesse we're.
Cannabis school having cannabis infused conversations.
With everyday. People.
Cannabis companies. Celebrities.
And your mom? Welcome to the Sash.
Hey everybody, we are so excited to have you here again on The
Sash. Welcome back.
We have got some amazing guests here today.
So we've got Troy and Aviva from Guides Collective.
We are going to get psychedelic in here.
Now you're noticing a theme every Thursday.
It almost seems like we keep gravitating towards
psychedelics. It has been a common theme,
hasn't? It recently, yeah, absolutely.
But you got to remember too, cannabis is a mild
hallucinogenic. It helps out with that one.
This is usually kind of stepping stones towards what we're going
to be talking about a lot today, but by far some of the most
experts in this field, at least from we, we could gather.
We're super excited to be able to meet you, Aviva Troy, thank
you guys so much for being here today.
Thanks for having us. Yeah, absolute honor, guys, This
is this is a thrill. I've I've been listening to your
podcast for the past week and now I'm just, I feel like I'm a
fanboy. I'm going to get autographs
after. This whatever, you know, it was
funny. I was at, I was at a dispensary
at Salt Lake and I was getting it's with Dragonfly.
And when I was getting it, the guy's like, hey man, can one of
the guys in the back come out and meet you?
He's a big fan. I'm like, that's sure.
And the guy's like, well, I'm really nervous.
I'm like, what the hell? That's weird.
That's so weird. I'm like, no, dude, we're cool.
Shook his hand, gave him a little bro hug and he was just
like, oh man, thank you so much. I'm like, that's weird, but OK,
cool. Because I mean, it's just like
what we were talking about before with psychedelics, you
know, you get to this certain stage of certain psychedelics
and we are as one. That's why I feel around with a
lot of people. I think that has a lot to do
with the psychedelics. What do you guys think?
Absolutely, yeah, Yeah. What I, what I've discovered
with psychedelics is like, it becomes this level of empathy.
And when you get super empathetic, you do feel like one
because it's no longer like you're doing this and I'm doing
this. It's more like what's going on
with you. Like even bad things like I got
cut off today and right like oldby would have been like what
the fuck? What are you doing?
Driving like an idiot. And like, my first thought is,
oh man, he seems like he's in a real hurry.
Like I, I, I hope he gets to where he's going, like he might
get fired from his job or something, right.
And like that, that empathetic feeling that that you get
inherently from psychedelics, like once it sticks with you,
it's like, oh, it's way different.
We're all connected. Jesse knows me behind the wheel.
That is my I'm usually like a very chill, mellow person and
then you put me behind the wheel and I get so annoyed with
everyone. Yeah, his his demon comes.
In and it's like so when there's times that like that piece is
actually with me and I'm like, Oh no, it's fine.
Like I'm no longer in a like I need to be here.
I need to go do this. It's like no, this is just where
I'm at. Like I'm OK, this is where I'm
at this is where I need to be. I don't need to be racing
somewhere else, like, and just chilling.
And it's like, oh, it's such a different experience doing that.
But to go from, like you said, the frustration and like all of
that to like, man, hope he gets there OK, man.
You know, he seems like he's in a rush.
Yeah, what a what a mind switch, right?
And yeah, man, once that triggers in your mind, like the
world just gets a lot. Do you think psychedelics has
been that biggest like the switch?
I would say so, yeah. I think psychedelics really was
that trigger for me that just, I mean, the way that I would
describe it is, you know, you go to therapy and you talk about
things and you, you know what you should be doing and you know
what you should be doing better. But with psychedelics, it, it
gives you more of like an inherent feeling of what you
should be doing. Like a like a prime example for
me is like, often times I was drinking too much, right?
Like it wasn't a problem. Like it wasn't like I'm not
going to jail and beat my kids with.
It's just not the healthiest lifestyle.
And I was like, I think I'm probably drinking too much.
And then during like a mushroom ceremony, I pictured myself on
my deathbed from just like not taking care of myself and my
family looking at me. And then like, why didn't you
take care of yourself? That's you died early.
And then that like that feeling was really what would like got
me going and be like, I have to take care of myself better
because it was it was more than just like a thought in the back
of your head. It was real.
It was in you. And like with psychedelics,
that's kind of how I look at it is just like, you know, you live
this pretty normal, mundane life, right?
And you don't have these like dare to be great situations.
But on psychedelics, everything is amplified.
Everything is bigger, right? So like, even like, you know,
you can be hiking and jump over a river and you're like crossing
like. Massive accomplishment here.
Yeah. And so like you have these like
almost dare to be great situation like these times that
you are fighting demons and fighting Dragons and it feels so
much more intense that like it sticks with you, right.
Like it, it lasts longer if you feel it more.
That's interesting. Aviva, you you you've been using
psychedelics for, I mean chronologically for quite a
while. Would that be a fair assumption?
A few. Decades.
You have such an interesting past.
I'm I'm interested. I I mean, Troy's going through
this transformation that he saw like almost dipping his, his
mind into the future. Did you have a similar
experience? Yes and no, right.
So like I, I, I absolutely am obviously a huge proponent of
the power of psychedelics, but I also don't think it's the right
solution for everybody all the time.
So, but there's a lot of media around how great you know,
you're going to take mushrooms once and your whole life is
going to transform or you're going to have this intense
experience and go like go deep the way you guys are talking
about, right? Like have this totally unifying
opening experience where you realize that you're all part of
humanity and you're all one and that can happen, but it's by no
means a guarantee or like necessarily a key.
The The thing is like we talk about psychedelics being non
specific amplifiers, which effectively means that whoever
we already are, it makes us more of.
So if you're like a really egotistical asshole and you're
like involved with psychedelics, you're just gonna be a more
egotistical asshole. So it's like, it, it, it, it
leverages like it, it, it, it, it puts itself into who you are
and amplifies that. And that's why to me, it's not a
stand alone experience. It's an experience that I think
it's necessary to have with perspective, with guidance, with
potentially mindfulness or yoga or breath work or therapy or
guidance or whatever it looks like so that you're actually
making the effective changes you want to be making.
The thing about psychedelics is it, it actually changes your
neuronal pathways. So it makes you more receptive
to change. It makes you more capable of
sort of suspending your own judgement and your own feelings
about, you know, your, your normal knee jerk responses.
And it opens up a space between right, how I feel and how I act.
And in that space, we can change how we act and potentially even
change how we feel. But like, where do we want to go
with that? If there's nobody really guiding
us towards or even ourselves, but we don't have a clear sense
of what we want to accomplish from this, then you've had a
great cool experience, but you may not have had a
transformative experience. Yeah, I like, I like how you
said that. Like if you're if you're an
asshole and you use it, you're just gonna be a bigger asshole.
And you know, we kind of thinking about like, you know,
historically when the Vikings used to go berserker, they would
use psychedelics. And that just makes out.
I mean, you're not going to be AI mean.
These guys are going around cutting people in half while
they're on mushrooms. So I mean.
Can you? That sounds nuts because they
can't even. Imagine.
They they would be like, I mean, could you imagine the visual?
Dude I watched EU. PTSD you would have after that.
Once like walked into the bar with a buddy on a like not a
microdose, but like a gram and a half probably.
And I started watching the fight and it was, it was horrible.
It was the worst experience. And I actually blacked out as I
was trying to walk out of the bar and I was like, it was just
so much so horrible. Like just watching all the
people rooting and cheering for people, like beating the shit
out of each other and watching the blood on their hands and
their faces. And I was like, this wasn't
humans, it was animals. And I was like to watch that.
It was hard. And I was like, I was like, I
need to get outside. And I started walking and I just
like blacked out, fell on the ground.
And my buddy, I wake up with this bartender over me and and I
look over and then my friends there and I was like, where are
we? And he's like at the bar And I'm
like, OK, let's go outside. And then we went outside and
then I came to and I was like, all right, we should probably
not be here. We should probably go.
And he was like, yeah, cool, All right.
So we hopped in the car. He drove because he was sober,
and we went home. But that experience and I'm
like, so Vikings and other people like doing that on AI,
can't even imagine. Well, but that, that it goes to
say, I mean, it's an extension of you, right?
So it's you're, you're being able to put that energy out even
further. And when you introduce light to
light, you know, you get that good experience when you
introduce darkness to darkness, that's where you get like that.
That makes sense too, because of, yeah, you may have this
great experience. I remember like friends in high
school would eat mushrooms and they would just giggle and
laugh. And every experience I've had on
on psilocybin has always been like this super positive, very
open. But because I had the intent.
And so again, it goes back to that, right?
By being guided. And, and that's kind of like
this huge thing of what when we met you guys, this was on on
just a fluke. I was at a dinner party and met
this guy just joking around with him.
He's like, you got to meet Troy. And then I meet Troy and then I
meet a Viva and I'm just like, this is kick ass.
This is so perfect. It's like it's just on this
journey where I've been. I mean, a lot of it is, you
know, I, I'm, I'm keeping this super valuable to my, my psyche
and to the growth of my soul. I believe that this is helping
so much. And so hearing about that,
especially what you had brought up, because social media has
this, I mean, there are mushroom gummies now that you can get on
there. And it's like, yeah, OK.
But I saw some at the They sell them at the coffee shop here
down the street. Yeah, they sell mushroom gummies
all the time. I'm like, what in the world?
Yeah, yeah, it's I think that's that's the challenge that this
next generation is going to have.
I, I work for a company called 3rd Wave, which is like a
psychedelic education company, but 3rd wave is, you know, we
had the 1st wave, which was essentially natives doing it
for, you know, cultural reasons as a family.
Then we have the 2nd wave, which was like the 70s.
And it's like, hey, take this, it's called acid.
What's going to happen? I don't know how much should I
take? I don't know, let's, let's go to
a concert, right? And now we're here at the 3rd
wave, which is really like using these things as powerful tools,
powerful medicine, But the more access there is to it, the
better chance we have of fucking it up.
Because truthfully, like I, I think the biggest thing was
psychedelics. And even on the last podcast
where you were talking about psychedelics with someone, it's
like, hey, let's take mushrooms. It'll change your life, right?
But how much are you supposed to take?
Is mushrooms right for you? There's LSD, there's DMT,
there's five MEODMT, there's all of these things and they all
work different. And like just saying, OK, I, I
heard psychedelics are good. I'm going to pop these mushrooms
and see if I'm all of a sudden a happy person that often times 1
can be very dangerous and two usually isn't going to work
right like. And you're not talking about the
setting and the preparations. That's huge.
Like set and setting is massive and it can shift at any moment.
Like if some new energy or person or thing comes into that,
it can like change your entire setting.
And so it can take you from being in a safe, peaceful, OK
setting to going to a dark, not OK space.
And it's like, I've had that happen as well because it was
like we had a nice safe setting set all of that.
And then someone else came into it that that wasn't there.
And it brought in this energy and we had to all separate, go
to our own spaces after we removed that energy.
And we're like, you have to leave.
We can't have you here. Everyone else went to our own
space. And then we came back within
1015 minutes because we were like, yeah, we're OK,
Everything's OK now. Like that energy was gone.
But it's it's massive and that will stick with you and there's
so much unknown for someone to just go, hey, take a mushroom or
take a psychedelic and jump right into it like that
massively. It can give you a beneficial
experience or it could end up giving you this horrible
experience that pushes you away from any type of beneficial
therapeutic things that you could gain from that.
Yeah. You know, it's, it's like
playing the lottery, right? Like it's funny.
The first time I did conscious psychedelics in ceremony, you
know, you have your eye mask on, you listen to the music.
And I took my eye mask off and it was done.
And the first thing I said is, holy shit, I've been doing drugs
wrong this entire time. Because before it was like, hey,
let's take some mushrooms and go to a concert.
But like in a setting like that one, music is already great and
a concert's already great. Like it's a good time already.
So you're not really introspective.
It makes the concert better, yes, but you're not really
thinking about your own. No inner child, you know nothing
like that. And to your point, what if
there's a fistfight right next to you, right?
And then how does that affect you?
So now it's very much like I I only do psychedelics in very
certain places with very certain people and often times usually
just by myself now. I agree.
I think by myself has been some of the most for me that's been
the most beneficial. Like I've worked through a lot
of my demons, a lot of my struggles, a lot of my own, like
shit my me being an asshole like all of this stuff.
It's me looking at it and going like realizing so much.
But it doesn't come like you said, it doesn't come from being
out at a party out at A at a concert.
It's from those moments like the perfect set and setting where
you're, you're meditating, you're doing these things and
you're looking at this like broken inner child and going,
hey, you're, you're OK. Like let me hug you.
You're OK. And then you break down and you
start bawling and that and you're like, but those are like
some of the most profound experiences that we have when we
allow that to happen. Yeah, I actually sorry.
Go ahead. No, no, I was going to ask a
question. Please go.
I so, so I actually have like a bit of, I guess qualification or
comment on like this whole conversation you had like
starting off with let's talk about set and setting, right?
So for anyone who doesn't know, Seth refers to your mindset,
right? How you're coming into the
experience, what your belief systems are, how right, like how
you're feeling and setting refers to what's going on around
you. So like you were talking about
like, you know, is somebody going to walk into the room and
totally upset the energetic balance or are you in a place
that you feel safer? Are you at a concert or are you
alone? So that's what we're talking
talking about. And yeah, it's obviously hugely
critical, but right, like one of the things you said around it's
the difference between having like a really positive
experience and going into a place that's really negative.
There's like, yes, obviously you could have an experience on
psychedelics that feels traumatizing or threatening.
And I actually have a friend who when she was much younger took
too much LSD and it end up it it it like probably caused some
form of psychotic break. She was not good for a long
time. So these are serious molecules
that you have to be really careful about.
But if you're physiologically safe and that isn't like you,
you aren't having that kind of tip over, then a bad trip isn't
always a bad trip. It goes back to right.
Like, are we in a place where we like, we are just looking at our
own demons, where we are in a spot of we're like delving into
the parts of ourselves, our shadow that we haven't looked at
and that we're allowing it to arise and then we're allowing it
to release. And if we can do that, then
these molecules become like a incredibly powerful force for
fueling our own change and our own growth and our own maturity
really. And, and for mindfulness, for
being able to really see ourselves and be conscious of
who we are in a moment by moment place, which is what allows us
to do what Troy was talking about, right?
Be in traffic and be able to have like compassion for
somebody. Because because we're not all
about ourselves, we can be all about other people too.
Yeah, I like how you say that. It's it's almost like a it's a
cleansing over there, kind of like where, I don't know, it's
like the, the, the film that's on the top.
You're able to kind of scrape that away.
But it also just kind of like like the, the concept of oil
pulling is, is where I'm I'm pulled to with psychedelics
where you're able to extract this toxic it, it pulls it up.
That's why I feel the same way. If someone's having a bad
experience on a trip where it's terrifying, It's something that
the mind is trying to bring back up going, no, we, we need to get
this out. We need to get this out.
And that's that cleansing feeling.
You know, like I failed on, on, on psilocybin on ketamine, like
something is gone. I'm glad it's gone.
I don't know what it is, but I don't want it back.
And it, it definitely starts to pull it out.
And it sounds like from your experience with so many
different people, that's the case, but also the cautionary,
right? This, this isn't to be played
with because I was talking to a guy recently and I was like, I
was like, well, how much do you take when you take psilocybin?
I mean, do you weigh it out? Do you know what kind of grams
you're taking? He goes, no, my friends and I in
college would get like a bag of it.
And then we go, here's an even amount for you.
Here's an even out for me. And nobody knows that the weight
could have been totally different.
And here's like, oh, exactly what you said.
I take this but. It goes, but it goes back to
like if, if you're, if we're emotionally capacitated and
we've grown up relatively safe and we've got an ability to self
process and we're self reflective and mature, then if
we're having a difficult experience, we may be able to
negotiate it and navigate it on our own.
But not everybody has that grounding, as we all know.
And people, people come from a lot of trauma.
And even if it's what we call small T trauma instead of big T
trauma, that's not that's not. That doesn't make it easier,
which is why like not everybody's capable of doing
this on their own. People do sometimes need a
sitter or a guide or somebody who's going to or a therapist,
somebody who like post experience can work with them
and help them tease out what happened and figure out what it
means, which is what we call integration.
Which means like you've had this experience, now where are we
going to put it inside our body to make to make sure we're
walking away with an understanding of what happened?
Integration, to me is like, there's pieces of us that are
missing, and I think of it sort of as puzzle pieces.
And as we integrate, like we're putting those pieces back into
place, we're literally becoming more whole.
And that's what ultimately integration allows us to do.
It allows us to take those isolated experiences and plug up
the places in us that we believe have gaps, even though we don't
have gaps, but we believe they do.
Integration makes us whole. That's trippy.
Yeah. So Aviva, in your like decades
of experience through here, I'm guessing you didn't start as a
guide. No, I am.
I don't even formally act as a guide, although I do so
informally. But no, I, I landed in here
inside of conscious community accidentally.
I have, I have a friend who was, was a rock star actually back in
the 80s and was during the time exposed to all kinds of
different drugs, including MDMA. And she had an experience and
thought it was so fantastic that she wanted to bring it to her
mother. So she ended up organizing a
family, what she called a camp, a family experience where she
and her mom just sat together with MDMA and allowed the heart
opening properties of it to to, you know, integrate and heal
their own relationship. And that was so awesome that
they ended up bringing in her siblings.
And then the mother was so impressed by the outcomes that
she constituted her own group of women and started quarterly
getting together with these women to have MDMA experiences
where they would spend a whole day.
It it, it was like a whole Saturday kind of thing.
And then Sunday would be integration where they would
just have themed experiences. They would dance, they would
dress up pretty. They would talk, they would talk
about really difficult stuff. They would talk about child
raising. They would whatever it was.
And those happened quarterly for years, like probably 15 years
until some of these women's children were old enough to be
brought into the group. And it became like a, a sort of
shift of like, how do we bring, how do we make this a next
generation experience? They started bringing in their
daughters and their daughters are like, I want to invite my
friends. So it, it just kept growing
organically. Today it's a group of probably
about 120 women and men in a bunch of different locations
around the world, obviously who don't get together
simultaneously, but who are considered part of this kind of
group of getting together and having these experiences.
So that's the context in which I've learned to guide and
facilitate. Side note, that's fucking weird.
I don't know what that thumb. Is I don't know how that I know
it's trying. To.
Trying to give a. Thumbs up.
It's like. Remember, this is the part of
the story where you give a thumbs up.
This is This is what you need to do every.
Time you say something smart of Eva we're getting.
Yeah. She's.
On it she knows. No, that is so.
Oh, I'm still like, I've never had that explained to me, but
I'm I'm seeing those gaps like puzzle pieces right now.
Maybe it's maybe it's the cannabis.
What are we smoking? Super Lemon.
Super Lemon G. Super lemon G So that's very
nice, but it's like when you were doing that, I felt that
going in and they just I'm thinking about that during those
psychedelic experiences because there's this there's this bit of
apprehension that I feel still even when I take a micro dose
because I'm I I think it's because I've developed so much
respect for the plant that I'm just like, don't don't abuse
this. Use this for when you need this,
but you know, don't don't use this like feel like feel like
getting something to eat. Let's go to Wendy's, right?
That's a bad choice. That's a bad choice, right?
We still make it, but it's still a bad choice.
And when you think holistically, like creating this homeostasis
within your life, like you just don't want to just be like, oh,
it's Tuesday. Wow.
Yep. You really want to be
intentional on that one. And I think that's part of that
intention is once you become more acclimated to it and having
a guide is so important now 'cause you brought it up, I
mean, we've got women's publications talking about
microdose for 30 days and change your life.
Like, OK, but we don't know what their body, it's like
everybody's endocannabinoid system is completely different
from the next. We don't know how it's going to
be from A to B to C. Or their mental state or whether
medications they're on or anything else you know, and, and
to say, hey, just take it and go off and do your own thing.
It's it's really. Tough.
Best of luck, Yeah. Like it's the same with
cannabis. I feel like the experience
should always be guided. Your first experience should be
with someone who, whether it's a therapist, a guide, someone who
understands and knows and can like help walk you through that
to make you feel safe. Where did, where did guides
collective like what did that? What was that starting point
like? What made you guys think, hey,
we need to help these guides, these people who are trying to
guide others through this? Yeah, so I, I can go first.
We kind of, it's, it's funny, 'cause we hit it from two
different angles and then we came together and I was like,
Aviva, here's what I'm thinking and she's like, this is what I'm
thinking too. But we got there in two
different ways, right? So for me, I very much have my
own personal relationships with psychedelics and I have been
guided, but I have very much like an imposter syndrome where
like who am I to be a guide, right?
Like I, I didn't go through training.
I, I'm not a guide. So as I was going through life
and you know, my journey is relatively new in terms of
conscious psychedelics. So I'm probably about five years
in, but I would go to people and be like, Oh my God, psychedelics
have changed my life. They're absolutely incredible.
Everyone should go do them and they would be like, OK, well,
can you help me? And I'd be like, no, who can I
was like I, I, I don't know, Like I, I generally don't know,
but you should really go find that person and and there's.
Gotta be. Someone, somewhere, yeah.
So, so for me, guides collective, you know, we have
this new thing to help people find A guide is really that
starting point for people, 'cause everyone's listening to
these conversations of psychedelics is good,
psychedelics is good, but where
do you go and what you. Do it And how do you do it
safely? And what should you be doing
right? Like even right now, the best
answer would be like go to a place like retreat guru and it
has all of these, you know, they're verified and they have
all these different retreats, but it's like a three day
ayahuasca ceremony, a six day psilocybin ceremony, a micro
dosing course. And and you don't even have
enough information to really know.
What? To do there know know where to
start, right? So there's no starting point
like when you go to a doctor. I got a thyroid issue, right?
And like I went to a doctor and I was like, this is kind of
weird. There's a bump here.
And that guy was like, oh, you have a bump here.
This could be a couple things. I'm going to send you to an
expert and that expert will figure it out for you, right?
And so like you had a starting point.
They sent me somewhere who was the expert based on what I
actually needed. And then that expert got me to
where I needed to go. That doesn't exist in
psychedelics. So what we built was this place
where we found the best guides in the world, right?
Like we have a network of 500 guides, but it's a starting
point where you speak with us specifically for 30 minutes.
You tell us what you're going through, what you're feeling,
what medications you're on, all of those things.
And then we link you up with the person that we think is right
for you specifically. Like, for example, if you have a
traumatic, like a really traumatic experience in your
childhood, a lot of times MDMA is a good starting point over
mushrooms because MDMA is a little bit more empathetic,
right? Like where you can start having
those feelings and start having those cries before you're having
visuals and too much is going on and you're not really
processing. But a lot of people, you know,
they could have severe sexual trauma and take a hero dose of
mushrooms. And again, if if there there is
no such thing as a bad trip and you might freak out and it might
be good for you. However, that probably wasn't
the best starting point for you. It could have been better, it
could have been easier. You could have, could still.
Gain immense value from that if you can find a way to integrate
what you've learned or you know the experience through that.
Even though you know, like you said, there's not really a bad
trip. I've had horrible moments within
a trip or really hard moments that have really like kind of
torn me to pieces. But then I've seen, hey, I'm
going to be OK. Like it's, it's kind of a
teaching moment in that moment to show me an experience that's
going to happen, a moment it's going to happen.
And then it's like you're still OK.
And through those like, I found these things and it's like
cathartic in those moments. But that moment when I'm sitting
there in it and I'm like, feeling like I'm falling apart
and I'm bawling. And, you know, like, in that
moment, I experienced my kids moving across the country.
I watched in that moment my kids leave.
And me feeling the pain of my kids leaving and me not seeing
them for who knows how long. Yeah.
And that was a reality that was happening.
It just hadn't happened yet. And I was beyond terrified of it
happening. And when it happened, like, that
mushroom trip was hard. It was hard.
But that's because the real life experience was hard.
Yeah, but I knew in that moment I was like, no, I'll be OK.
And in that, that was still to this day is one of the most
beautiful experiences that I've gone through hard.
But like that trip was eye opening and mind opening going
like I never would have gone through that.
Like I never would could have experienced that in my own
reality without that psychedelic like hand.
Yeah. And ideally, what do you do
after that? You appreciate your time with
your kids 10 times more because you felt, you know, the feeling
of when they're going to leave. And so ideally you come back and
be a better, the best dad you can be in those moments, right?
Yeah, be present in those moments.
When it brings such an emphasis on why there should be more
guided experiences as we're seeing this culture shift where
psychedelics becomes the end all be all cure and cannabis has
gone through that multiple times.
People are like, oh, it's great for everything.
Like I got eczema. You just smoke this and the
eczema goes away. Just.
Spray some Windex on it. Yeah, yeah, You know it.
It's like everybody's like, oh, yeah.
Like when I first got into campus, like, oh, you know,
it'll help with diabetes because I have type 2 diabetes.
And I go, yeah, OK, you show me something that goes behind it.
Like I'm just going to trust it going.
No, honey, I'm keeping the diabetes away, smoking all day
long. I just keep my bong attached to
me with like a utility belt, right.
I pull it out for the diabetes. Yeah, it's for the Venice.
I'm in line over there for the Walmart somebody like hey, hey.
And I'm like it's. Medical.
They're like, OK, OK. But fetus is acting up.
I got to start smoking again. You just smoked 10 feet before.
I got to do it again. You're so high you're eating 10
cookies. I.
Got a flare up? Walmart Walmart should start
having high guides. They just pick out the guys with
really red eyes and kind of slow gate and they go come with me,
Sir, and they just have a they're perfect snack aisle.
They need a high aisle that's. What they need?
Is going there we. We know everything you want.
As soon as you come in a a voice goes over there going aisle 4.
Sleekies and Doritos in the same place.
That was the thing I was thinking about when you were
talking about these, these places that do these psychedelic
retreats and they're like ayahuasca Monday, Psilocybin
Tuesday is just like, why don't they just have like an
announcement? If you were at like a restaurant
and the restaurant goes, OK, you eat something all at the same
time and they go, by the way, that food can cause severe
cramping, diarrhea and vomiting. Best of luck.
And you're just like, OK, what did I just get into 'cause
that's the feeling that you have when you you take it going,
there's no going back. There's no going back.
But it, it can't, it shouldn't feel that way.
You should be prepped. Although, you know, that's so
interesting, it shouldn't. I'm not.
I wanna think about that comment because I think that we probably
should have a bit of trepidation before approaching psychedelics,
no matter how experienced we might be.
The this, this every single trip has the potential to quite
literally change the way you think and feel.
I mean, we, we all know the whole Burning Man storyline of
like, you know, the, the prohibitions after you've, after
you've attended, right? Don't quit your job, don't sell
your house, don't get divorced. Because the impulse when you've
had this kind of experience is I've seen the light, I know the
truth. I am God, I can make all these
changes. And I mean, sure, what like we,
it definitely feels like we've gained a, a bigger truth, but
then real life is gonna come back.
Real life is still gonna come back.
And so how do we navigate these kind of like big moments in that
real life context? So like, should we feel totally
comfortable approaching this or should we be a little concerned
and respectful of, of the lineage that this comes from of
the right of the of the potential power of what it's
going to do to us emotionally, psychologically?
I think a little fear is probably good.
It sounds like you still have that after decades and decades
and decades. I so that's so interesting.
I've lost it for a little bit. I was afraid for a really long
time and I was afraid. I'm not panicked, but I would
have that moment of like, OK, here we go, right?
Nervous anxiousness of. I've lost that fear for a short
little period about a year ago. And I was just like, yeah,
whatever. I've taken all kinds.
It's like it all looks like I can take all kinds.
It's like it all. They're not addictive.
It's not a big deal. It doesn't do much for your
body. And I ended up like with real
medical problems that the doctors couldn't figure out what
was going on and that I still don't have like a firm diagnosis
'cause, you know, I only reveal so much.
But it looks like it was probably like some kind of,
what's that syndrome called? Troy, do you remember it's like
when you when there's too much serotonin syndrome, where
there's too much serotonin in your body and it messes up your
like capacity to function. So.
So again. Now I'm afraid.
Again. Not actively, not enough to stop
me, but enough to be really respectful.
One of the best ways that I've heard it put and that that I use
now is like, psychedelics are a skill that you can get better
at. Like let's look at it as like
karate, right? If you're going to join karate,
you're not just going to go like, all right, I'm going to
get into a fight and see what happens, right?
Like, you have a sensei first, right?
And like you get trained and you get taught what to do.
When they do this, you do this. When they do this, you do this,
right? And like in that starting
journey of psychedelics, it really makes a lot of sense to
have that sensei. So when I started doing guiding
guided psychedelics, right, like if something would get scary, I
learned breath work, right, 'cause someone's like, no, no,
do box breathing, Watch what happens.
And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, I, I just left my body
for a minute. That was great.
And from box breathing, Yeah. Well, on psychedelics, yeah.
Yeah. But just 30 minutes of box
breathing and I was just left my body, my stomach was a little
uncomfortable from the mushrooms.
And they were like, keep breathing it this way and you
won't notice your body anymore. And I was like, oh, I left my
meat bag. Like, that's wild.
Yeah, it was very interesting. But I keep learning these new
things in psychedelics, right? And like, the way that I look at
it is it's an onion that you continue to peel back.
So a lot of times your first psychedelic experience could go
very bad because that's the first layer of the onion, right?
That's the first piece where you're dealing with that
childhood trauma, where you're dealing with that those surface
level emotions that are fundamentally inside of you that
you've been bottling up. And now we're about to come out.
So that's where you really want to be guided, right?
But after doing, I don't know, 20-30 guided ceremonies like
then, I felt equipped. About two months ago, I had
probably the most profound psychedelic experience of my
life. I did 8 grams of mushrooms
completely by myself, completely by myself because I felt
equipped so that I could handle anything that would come up.
And it was so profound. It was so crazy because I shed
all the layers of Troy that is a dad, a business owner, this of
that you know, you have all. And the, the older you get and
you have kids, like the more those layers are on and you
forget who you were. And the best way I can describe
it is I fell in love with myself again.
Like I took myself on the best 4 hour date I've ever had with
myself completely alone and I I felt equipped to handle it.
But that shouldn't have been my first psychedelic.
Experience. Right, like like that could have
gone very. Grounds on your own like.
That's a huge. That's a heroic, yeah, massive
heroic dose. Yeah.
So like the starting point, the, the feeling comfortable starting
with low doses and working your way up and dealing with some of
those traumatic things. Cause like the first level for
me, it's like the trauma, the identity, but then it goes a
little deeper into like the meaning of life, the source,
right? And then it goes a little bit
deeper and each layer gets a little bit more profound.
But I mean, that's why they call it the work.
Because we work through all the other trauma and like, get
bullshit that we have that we carry, Yeah, in order to get to
that. Yeah.
And that's, that's the, that's the hard part.
And that's where we really believe in guided, safe, take
the right stuff at the right time, preparation, integration,
all of that stuff. So that's really what our
mission has been is, is basically really understanding
who the human is and then pointing them in a direction
that we feel is the best to work with, the best in class to
handle whatever it is you're looking to get out of, you know,
a psychedelic regimen or a psychedelic experience.
So. You're like the General
practitioner that they go to to go, hey, who's the specialist?
Where do I go to to go? The final is going to help me,
yeah. Yeah, But really understanding
on a deeper level that 30 minutes, I mean, you can gain so
much from someone if they can be honest in those thirty minutes
about their life, their struggles, like who they are,
maybe what they're taking, what they're doing, like that can be
massively beneficial in that experience and really aligning
them with someone. Like you said, some people have
certain traumas that really are cater to almost specific types
of therapies or types of personalities in that to work
with that, it's like you will gain the most value from this
type of person. Yep, yeah, that's, that's been
our, our, our mission for a long time now.
My, my biggest thing is I find that the people who probably
need psychedelics the most are the people that are the most
adverse to them. And this is the same thing with
cannabis is like you had the image of the pothead, right?
Like, oh, wait, I'm gonna smoke that.
I know who smokes that those guys in the basement that don't
do anything and they live in their parents house, right.
And that was that was this initial stigma.
And like right now with psychedelics, it's like, oh,
that's for like those people in leather vest that slackline and
and live in Thailand and you know, like I'll do them and I'll
want to quit my job and nothing, you know, nothing will matter
anymore. And like, it's really like the
soccer moms who are living, you know, their mundane lives, who
just need to need to remember their spark, their inner joy,
you know? Remember who they?
Are Yeah. These businessmen who just nine
to five, they go, they go and, and and that's what we want to
bring is like psychedelics to the masses where everybody feels
comfortable doing. Like my avatar, I grew up Mormon
as well. My avatar is my sister and my
mom. If I could do MDMA with my
sister and my mom like because they now feel like it's been
normalized enough, Oh my God that would just be that.
Would be amazing, yeah. Could you imagine doing?
It it's the same thing with like I think about that with my
parents even like I've thought about it, man, how cool it'd be
to consume cannabis or do like a micro dose with my parents or,
you know, MDMA. Like what would those
experiences in those conversations?
And honestly it sucks because I had a conversation with my dad
about this yesterday because one of my cousins, we talked about
it like a couple weeks ago and she's going through therapy and
she's like it's interesting. I honestly don't feel like
anyone in that side actually loves each other.
Like I don't feel like. And and that side of our family
is 160 plus people. We're massive from my
grandparents down like. Mormons multiply like amoeba,
Yeah. We are Mormons through and
through. That's like, hey, can we pop out
how many kids like, let's do it so.
I've got five kids, rookie. Yeah, what?
I have a small family. Those are rookie numbers.
Balls rolling through California.
They. Be like Mormon bro.
Yeah, right. That's exactly right.
So but I look at that and I'm like, I would love to do those
types of things with them. And looking at that and going,
yeah, realizing most of my family has no idea what love is
like. They don't love themselves.
They don't love each other. So looking at that and going,
how much of them could be healed in the right setting?
The right like, if they had someone to guide them, walk them
through this, how many of these broken children would come
outgoing? Hey, oh, my God.
Like, I am so much more than I thought I was.
And then they treat other people so much more because they see
them differently. And like you said, it becomes
the like we not an us and a them or like each of us as
individuals. That's like a we, you see their
struggles, you feel their struggles and you're there for
them, for those struggles because you're not judging them.
It's no longer this like, Oh well, I'm better than you or
this. It's like, no, you're human, I'm
human, we're human. Like we're all going through
this human experience together. And sometimes it's incredibly
shitty and hard, and other times it's incredibly beautiful, but
you can't experience that beautiful without the shitty and
the heart. But it's like we wear so many
layers of this ego, of this struggle of life that we carry.
And it's like how many rocks are in our backpack that we're
carrying. Yeah, you know.
One of the greatest things that I've ever done for my marriage
is as I started going down this path, me and my wife started
tradition where we'll get a hotel room every three months to
six months. And we'll do a little bit of
MDMA and we'll do a little bit of mushrooms and we will talk.
And like the last experience that we had when my son was
really little, you know, she looked at me and she's like you.
So we, I have two boys, right? And one was three and one was
one. And she looked at me and she
said, you need to hold Skyler more.
And like, if she would have told me that on a random Tuesday, I'd
be like, I'm a great fucking dad.
Like, I do see all the things I'm doing.
Do you see? Do you?
Yeah, I I just would have gotten very defensive.
And you know, when she said it, in that moment, I was like, you
know what? You're right.
Because I feel like because you were the mother and this is a
baby. Your responsibility is to this
baby while I'm taking care of the three-year old who no longer
needs you as much anymore. And I was able to analyze why I
was doing it, what I could be doing better.
And instead of a fight, it's this super profound moment that
like the very next day, you know, it's like, I got Skylar.
I got Skylar. Don't worry about, I'll feed
him. I'll feed him like, because I, I
fundamentally understood where she was coming from and was able
to shed my ego enough to be like, oh, you're right.
And here are the reasons. You are right.
And here's what I was thinking when I was doing that.
'Cause our ego gets in that way and it's like, what was their
tone? What was this?
And it's like half of the time we take it way out of context
and blow things way out of a proportion in something simple
like that could have been like, you know, it turns into like,
I'm holding him enough. Like, you don't think I'm a good
dad. And you're like, versus just
sitting and realizing where she's coming from, what she was
trying to convey and going, oh, man, seeing more of the picture
and going, yeah, I, I could do that.
I like. And that's what you integrate
into your life. You go, OK, cool.
Yeah, this is what I'm going to pull from this.
I think about like the layers, you know, peeling off.
But I'm also got this like, idea of rendering the fat, right?
So if you've got the fat back on something like pork or something
like that, you want to render that fat because then you get to
the really tasty part. And that's, you know, the tasty
part of life is being able to get these layers.
We become so calcified. And so, you know, we develop
these calluses that just keep building over our emotions and
our life and pain, right? Yeah, but but not just, I mean,
we're protecting ourselves, but it's OK to be strong from that.
It's OK to have those calluses, but to know that there's
something soft inside. And I think we build it up so
much that we don't allow ourselves to do that.
So by being able to have such a services such as what you guys
are providing here, by being able to find the right guide
that's going to be for your right situation and for what
you're going through currently, that's immense.
Especially now where it's becoming so popularized.
It's it's getting to the point where it's going to be like in
talks like CBD, like I don't want to go to 711 and get my
dose. Like that's dose not give me
give AM. Give me slushy.
Skittles and some MDMA. Yeah, I'll take I'll, I'll take
the blue flavor and I will take the red flavor.
And they're like, OK, like I don't even know what.
I want Mountain Dew Baja blast. MDMA Slurpee.
It's got to be. It's got to be like Nyquil.
Like Nyquil is the only medicine out there that tastes like red
or green 'cause there's no other way to describe it.
It's just like this. Tastes like it.
Does taste like? Right, so you just fall asleep.
But I wanted to ask you Viva, since you've you've been the the
most experienced psychonaut. I have been thinking about this
for a bit only because of Frank Herbert's Dune.
So there is a mushroom expert. What's his name is it?
Is it McKenna, Terence Mckenna's brother?
Terence McKenna. It's the guy who wears the
massive hat. He wears a hat and glasses, has
the big beard Stamos. Seems Batman.
No, no Stamos, Stamos, all stamens.
All stamens. All stamens.
Yeah, sorry Aviva, they're they're getting me high so.
We're just always a mistake with Troy but.
You guys are a black belt. I'm a yellow belt in weeds.
Oh, don't. Don't worry, man.
Never go too far, man. We are.
We're very responsible for that. You.
Guys are my guides, so yeah. No, no, you should probably cut
yourself off. But but in Frank Hubbard's Dune,
this the, the guy was reading it back then and he knew Frank
Herbert and he came to him and he, they were talking about the
blue juice of life. And he said, that's psilocybin
tea. He goes, you created that the
spice is from psilocybin. And he goes, you know, you're
the only one who got that. Yeah, he's like, you're the
first person who's ever noticed that.
Yeah, and it was like psilocybin tea.
I know that it can turn blue, but how's the experience
compared to just eating the plant?
Compared to just eating it. Tea versus.
Like, OK, so, so the issue with eating mushrooms is that it
takes time to metabolize so that you're it's not going to hit
your body. And like Troy was saying
earlier, it's probably going to mess with your stomach.
You're going to you're going to feel nauseous.
It's not, it's not the end. It doesn't taste that great.
What? It's delicious.
Stop telling these people. Lies.
If you grind it up, you can use cannabis grinder.
You grind it up, you stick it in a tea bag or a tea holder.
You you, you steep it for like 1/2 an hour.
You can add honey, you can add right sugar.
You can do what you want. Some people add lemon, it's
called lemon teking, which makes it even stronger.
It's going to hit your body faster.
I've heard that helps. And it metabolizes much more
quickly. Yeah, Yeah, it does.
Like I said, which was getting to that you're not nauseous on
it as much. With the lemon juice you may.
Feel some nausea again, depending on the quantity that
you've taken and you know your dosage and your comfort level
and you know if you're used to feeling this in your body or
not. But no, chances are you're going
to navigate it a lot more smoothly and you feel the come
on more softly, so it becomes something that you can lean into
differently than if you're just chewing the stuff.
The only way I do mushrooms that was lemon teking.
Like the difference it's done on my stomach.
Yeah. So basically the the way that it
works is like the lemon kind of pre digest the stuff that your
stomach was going to have to digest.
Yeah. So it's not the psilocybin
itself, but it's everything else that's in the mushrooms like it.
It kind of does the. Work of the microorganisms,
yeah, interact with your gut Biome or something and I acid in
advance. Lemon juice.
In advance, Yeah, it's, it's, it's been once.
I did it once. I was like, this is the only way
I'm ever going to. Take.
I hadn't heard that before and I told a friend to try that
because she was like, oh, every time I'd use mushrooms, I'm just
nauseous or I throw up. And I was like, well, I heard
lemon juice works, but it might make it work like more potent.
So just be careful. But try that next time.
And I get a video message from my buddy and his girlfriend and
they're like, Oh my gosh, it's amazing.
I don't feel sick at all. And I was like, well, that's,
I'm glad it worked for you. Like I've I've not tried that
yet. So yeah, I've been really
interested because I mean, you imagine having a picture of that
in your in your fridge. Daddy, what's that blue juice
over here? Can I have some of the blue
juice? No.
No, you're not talking to God today.
Yeah, seriously. I don't know, like I personally
have had psychedelic experiences with my children who are adults,
but but it's I don't mind giving them the blue juice like it's a
it's an actual honor to it's an. Adult.
I think that would be amazing. Kind of thing.
To have that type of connected experience with them because
I've done it with like a, a handful of close friends now and
then, like here and there. I've done psychedelics with a
few. And I think in certain circles
with the SAT setting and the people like that's OK.
And it when my kids get old enough to the point that they're
adults, I would love to have that experience with my
children. Like MDMA, psilocybin, like
those, 'cause I know, gosh, I know.
I've never been the perfect parent.
And how much that. They I'm glad he admitted it.
The. First he keeps doing that.
He sends me like memes, like I'm better than you.
And then he'll like send pictures of me doing stuff with
his kids. He's like, were you you.
Bastard religion is what did it because I was like this concept
of God, this like perfect father.
And then they looked at it and I was like, if he's the perfect
father, I'm I'm nowhere near a perfect father.
And if he's and I was like, and if he's the perfect father and
I'm like this story that I've been told makes no sense.
No, and I was like, that's AI cannot wrap this in my mind that
this is true. And I was like, that's a load of
shit. And so since then, that like
concept of that because I'm like, and and now I look at it
and I feel like I am way more introspective about how I am
with my kids. I am always the first one to go.
I am sorry. I yelled, I snapped.
Like I am sorry. My parents never apologize.
Jesse's we talked about it. His parents didn't either.
It was like, this is how you were raised.
You got like smacked. You got like you were put in
your place. You were you did what you were
told and like just how shit was. And so now I'm like looking at
it going, yeah, no, I I'm not raising my children that way.
And and still looking at it going like how many times that I
just because of how I was raised, that it's a reaction and
going I'm sorry, I reacted. I was not paying attention.
I was frustrated. All this was going on and and
I'm sorry, like I'm still working on being a parent and
like work with this through me because you know, if there's
things that you're like dad, like tell me because I know I'm
not perfect and I'm the first one to go.
Hey, I fucked up like I'm sorry. Yeah, he says it a lot.
That's that's one of the best parenting things you can you can
do. I think a lot of children get
fucked up is when they think they're their father, their
parent figures are the end all be all right.
Yeah. And they know exactly what to do
and exactly when to do it. And when I don't do it, I get
yelled at and they know everything.
And then those people, like they don't realize until they have
kids like, oh, my parents are just a bunch of idiots trying
the best that they could. Why didn't they tell me that
earlier? Like the earlier that you can
look at your child and relate 1 to one as human rather than
parent to kid is is. Very.
So many times they come to me. Dad, do you know this?
No, actually, I don't. Let's let's go find this out
together because I don't have to know everything.
Yeah, I'm older. Yeah, I've been around longer.
But I'm not the end all be all. I'm not God.
I'm not whatever you want to think of that is, I'm Brandon.
I'm this guy who's figuring life out as he goes, and I'm still
figuring life out. I have no idea and as new data
and information come along I go oh shoot look I was incorrect.
I learned something new today. They.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I this is reminding me of a book I
recently listened to on near death experiences.
It was he was on, there was a guy, he was on Shawn Ryan's
podcast and it was awesome. I was like, you know what, I'm
going to do this. And I smoked a lot of cannabis
while I listened to this book. And you know, that, that idea of
thinking about a perfect, you know, I'm not perfect.
And, and a lot of, you know, religions across the board, they
all want, they had this idea of you need to be perfect and
you're not worthy enough, you're not good enough.
You, you, you'll never be there. And a lot of people feel that
like within, you know, in Utah, the, the predominant faith of,
of the LDS Church, that's what's the, the idea that people get.
But when I listened to this book, it took all these near
death experiences over a / 30 years and the commonalities they
found in it. And the closest thing that I,
what they were talking about is the same feeling that I have on
psilocybin, which was absolute acceptance, absolute love.
And that's what every single person talked about in those
near death experiences where we envision whatever the greater
entity, whatever you want to call them, them whatever is,
it's nothing but light and love. There's no judgement, there's no
anger. There's only like the way they
described it was the most intense love you've ever felt in
your life. And I, I feel that we get a
touch that when we use psychedelics, just for a moment,
imagine if that was all the time ever expanding.
I mean, that'd be crazy. Somebody's like, look, dude, if
you, if you take mushrooms, your, your love is just going to
get bigger and bigger and bigger.
If you go in with the right intent, the right person to
guide you, like you just had the happiest people walking around.
Like, I feel nicer. Like Brandon rode with me.
I am the most passive driver ever.
Oh, you go ahead, Sir. Somebody over there getting real
angry. I'm like, hey, take care.
And they're hitting your horn. For you, I I never hit my horn.
I rarely hit my horn even if I'm at a stop light and and the guys
over there dinking around on this phone going who, who
messaged me? Jesse's like he'll finish the
text soon. He's like.
Fuck it up. I'm like, I'll wait like for
like 5 to like, all right, just a little.
And they go, oh, you know, 'cause I feel that I'm just
like, oh, I'm so sorry. And, and allowing people to get
in line at the grocery store, they just got that look on their
face saying, Hey, you need this more than I do.
It just puts you in this sense of and, and I, and I say this
too to a lot of people, I was like, it put you in this Christ
like sense where you're just like, I'm going to be loving,
I'm going to be caring. I care about all of you, all of
you are important. That's where I mean, you know,
Brandon bringing me into, you know, cannabis.
I mean, like I started telling him like, you know, early on
when we started really hanging out, I'm like, hey man, I love
you. And it was like a light went off
on him. He goes, I love you too, man.
We every day we talk, which can be multiple times a day, every
time we get off the phone like, hey, I love you bro, love you
too. And I've spread that to other
people. And now I have people like I
just met this new guy yesterday and we're talking it's all
business stuff and, and I just say hey man, I love you.
And he's like, I love you too. Like so excited.
And I feel that's the same way with psilocybin, like we're
people need to be in that environment.
You can't get love in 7-11 out of a bag that's sealed by the
counter that's in Raspberry. You just can't.
You mean charity? Well.
Shit, I changed everything. I was just like, you know, what,
if it's, you know, if it's that you're like, but if it's cherry
like shit, man, to come off like Kobe Bryant's in there in the
Staples Arena, right, Just you're like, I'm ready to I'm
ready to play ball. Like, no, it's it it definitely
you need that. You really need that guide into
Sage, if you will, somebody that can really help you through that
process and and allow that stigma to fall off of you.
And that's what I love about these communities.
It's not like you're going to run into each other at the
supermarket locally going. I know what you do on Saturdays.
Like it's it's just a community. You just know each other.
It's like when Brandon and I joke around about it with
potheads, like if you go anywhere in the world and don't
even speak the language and somebody is smoking some Chiba,
you go and they go, oh, yeah, yeah, they'll share it with you.
And all of a sudden you're friends.
Yeah. It's like with psilocybin.
If somebody knows you do it, they go.
They they welcome you. Like what?
What Christians believe, how they'll be welcome when they
come into church. Yeah, come on.
Hey, what's up? Oh, it's.
So good to see you. How you do.
I love you. Yeah.
Yeah, we have this. I do this bed circle like once a
month where we take psilocybin, but like the after doing a few
times, I was like, man, I think this is what church was trying
to do. I, I like we support each other.
We talk about what everyone's going through.
There's genuine love. Everybody wants the next person
to just be a little bit butter and you could feel it and like,
I grew up going to Mormon church and I was very bored, but right
like I, I. Got the market to be to do.
I I give the feeling they were trying to invoke, but I've just
found for me this much more real way of doing it that now has
become my more or less my religion.
I've never done psilocybin and gone to church, but I've
definitely thought about it and I think that would be an amazing
experience because I'm, I'm usually I, I have cannabis in my
system when I go because I'm like, look, people are going to
say things are going to be pretty ignorant.
That's OK, you need to let that go.
I'm like, all right, so I go and they'll say something.
And normally I'd be like, that was dumb.
Like now I'm just like, well, I wonder.
I wonder why that experience has his attention.
That's all I think now. But it is it because it comes
down to compassion and right if we're full of opening our hearts
up and it it it going back to what I was seeing before.
I don't know that psychedelics are the be all and end all for
that, but you know, if it's done intentionally, if it's like if
it's indicated for you and your body, if you're capable of doing
this, and if you're emotionally and psychologically whole enough
to experience this and you don't have to be whole, you just don't
be whole enough, then absolutely.
Like, can it tap you into a deeper level of love?
You know, a consciousness of divinity, a sense of belonging
on. Self love like previous to
psychedelics, I honestly, I, I know I had no self love.
There was mirror work that I did and experience and in that
moment, like just seeing myself in the mirror, I was bawling and
I saw like I talked to myself and I was like in that moment I
was judging myself. But then I saw who I was and I
found that love and I was like this is horrible.
How have I not loved myself at all?
And to see that and like to feel that difference, to find a love
for yourself can reflect so much more outwardly when you find
that. So again, like you said, if
you're whole enough and you're in a good enough spot, you can
find one that works well with you.
You can go through and find that for yourself and work through
these things and come out as a more of you because those pieces
that you think are missing that you're just perception is
they're missing, so they're missing and so you're just
allowing that to come back. The more we do it too right, the
better we become at, at self regulating, at self healing, at
seeing our beauty. We get to reflect that outwards
and that, that rubs off. That rubs off on the people we
work with who we can say we love.
It rubs off on our parents and our children.
It rubs off on the drivers that we don't swear at, even though
they don't know like it rubs off on, on, on the people in the
line in front of us. It it makes it, it makes us it,
it has the capacity to make the world maybe a little bit kinder,
which I think we all need. Yeah, definitely.
And and and I love what you said earlier too.
And, and I'm thank you for sharing that, that, you know,
there was a time where you, you, it didn't make you nervous
anymore and you just took it a lot more.
And, you know, I, it reminds me of this one guy that I, I knew
he's around here. He was involved with the
business, doing really well, got really into ayahuasca.
And he was, he was one of those guys like it's, it's better if
it's in the jungle. And he was going down so much
that he had a psychotic break and he came back and, and I, and
I worked, I worked 10 years in psych.
So you, you have the ability to see other people through
different lens 'cause you know it so well.
It's not like, Oh no, no, this, you know, 2024 schizophrenia, so
much more different than early 2000 schizophrenia.
No, across the board it's been the same in the way that he was
acting was mildly schizophrenic. And I felt so bad.
Where it's you fly too close to the sun and you're going to get
burned. I have, I have a friend going
through that right now. Like I was at an ayahuasca
ceremony and someone said something really interesting
about, you know, talk about preparation, integration.
It's like some people are looking for altered traits and
some people are looking for altered states.
Which one are you looking for? But I had a buddy who got his
psychedelics at like 40. Everything he did, he went to
the extreme right. So he's, it was just like, oh,
you took 4G of mushrooms. I could take 12.
Oh, you, you only do it once every three months.
I'm going to do it every day for the next two weeks.
Oh, you do this with ayahuasca. I'm going to have more.
And it's like you're missing the point and you are starting to
lose your minds. Like it's, that's not, it's not,
that's not what you're missing. The entire point of what this is
is for, you know, And that's why, again, you should be
working with someone who can help you and if you are that
kind of person, also remind you like, well, you're missing the
point a lot. 'Cause like you said, your very
first thing where you're like, oh, I realized I was doing drugs
all wrong. Because when you use, there's a
difference between like doing them recreationally or socially
and then using it with like an actual experience.
You use way less too. The medicine that you actually
use is tons less. And so you're like the
experience you get is way better, can be way more
impactful and you're using like a portion of what you would
otherwise. And it's like, again, it's like
setting dosing. Like there's so much that goes
into everything for. That that's the epiphany I'm
having right now is like when you, when you hear about, like
when you're taking it, It's what's the oh, damn it, damn
marijuana. Got it.
No, no, no. No, but I had something there.
Damn it. It was actually pretty good.
It was good. Now it's gone.
It's gone, it'll come back. I have a good feeling about.
It no, no, I Yep, it's gone. You know what?
It probably wasn't meant to be anyway.
Let's think like no Jesse. That's way too meta.
Stop being a pretentious Dick head.
Hold on. We're.
Going to do. We're going to do a recap.
Let's get you back here. We talked about doing way too
much. Then we talked about the reasons
for doing it and the setting and what your intentions were.
And then you were about to. Say, oh, yeah, you know what the
guy going over there talking about like, I got to do more
than you. I got to do more than this one.
You know, nobody's going to do that with calcium and with
magnesium calcitrate. Like, no one's going to take
like I'm going to drink the entire bottle.
And not only that, but the insides of my colon are going to
look like steel, a brush steel, because it's going to clean me
out. It's going to be beautiful.
And that's the thing, like when when you're doing that, just
like, whoa, what? Like I still hold myself at, I,
I have a moderate tolerance. Yeah.
That's why I don't want to think of as tolerance, because a
tolerance is being able to accept a poison into your body
and still not feel the effects. So I want to be able to elevate
myself based on this certain dosage because this is all I
need, right? You don't.
I mean, dude, pizza's delicious, but you don't need to eat the
entire pie. You can have one or two slices
and just be happy. Well, maybe that's the intent
behind it is you know when. You weigh.
Out specifically your dose it's you know I've got this intent so
it's a micro dose it's this small of a dose it's it's 1g
yeah you know but how often do you have the intent that you're
taking an 8g trip yeah you know so.
Just once. That's a, that's a planned
event, yeah. So maybe that intent has, but it
depends on the person. There's, like you've said, so
many people just, hey, well, I'm going to eat a handful of
mushrooms. I'm just going to take this
mushroom. Do you even know how much it
was? Yeah.
Like there's so much they can go into it and you're like, well,
was it 1/3 of a gram? Was it a gram and a half?
Like what was the dosage? And what strain was it?
Exactly. How did you consume it?
And like all of that matters and people don't know.
So I agree. I but it goes back to what I was
saying before around non like non specific amplifiers, because
if you're a really competitive personality that has to prove
that what you're doing is better than what other people are
doing, you're gonna fall into that kind of trap without the
proper preparation that you know, oh, here I am.
I've got to prove that I'm better at psychedelics as well.
So like, and, and to Troy's point, it is true.
I mean, it's not ultimately those are the habits that we're
trying to break, not trying to solidify.
And if we're not careful, we can find ourselves solidifying the
habits we don't want to be solidified.
I mean more of, you know, more rigid or more judgmental or more
competitive, so. What I found, what I found kind
of ironic about psychedelics is the more I've done them, the
less I need them and the less often like.
Now I now I call it. I do, the less I do.
Like a refresher, like I've had these profound realizations in
my life that now I know inherently and I just need a
reminder every once in a while, you know, like that that's all
it is. I just need a top off to just
just remember like, oh, you know that thing that you
fundamentally know now. Like, you know, like a prime
example of when I was talking about the five MEODMT, like I
have this realization that I needed to take better care of
myself on a trip a long time ago.
And the five MEODMT was just like, Hey, remember that?
Like, like, don't forget that thing that you inherently knew
before. And it was like, oh, thanks.
Like good. I I'm good for the next.
Thanks. Hire me.
Yeah, I'm good for the next year or six months or whatever it
quote UN quote calls you back. But like I don't it's not like I
crave it. I know when I I just need to
remember again, if that makes sense.
Could you feel it? And it's like, Oh yeah, I
should, I should probably check back in with the mushrooms.
Yeah, I need a little reminder. Yeah, it's the least competitive
thing, right? I mean, that's funny, you know,
people saying I can do more psychedelics than you can.
It's like that's psych flexing. I mean, cool.
I I guess like that. That's neat.
My ego's more dead than your ego.
I drink more water. I I drink more water than yours.
I don't even have my ego's on the cross.
Look at my eyes. There's.
Still been laying. Here for a week.
Completely. Black once I, I remember a
friend saying something like, you know, oh man, I took all
this LSD and like my third eye opened and like I was in touch
with God and like, like I, I just need to take more.
And my son, my youngest says like, well, with his third eyes
open, where else is he going to go?
Like, isn't he done? And at some point you do, you
have to start asking why. Why am I doing this?
That's like drinking a whole bottle of of laxative right
there again and my butt hole opened.
Up and the. Sights fell out.
That reminds me of the story when we were in Denver at the
MAPS conference, and we were at that bar and the guy was like,
yeah, I'm writing a book. I've done LSD every day living
in my van, and I want to do it for 365 days.
And he was just saying it from this, you know, this kind of
noble place. And if he just looks and goes,
why the fuck would you do that? Yeah.
And, and like, he generally didn't have, like, he was thrown
because most people were like, oh, that's incredible.
You must be so enlightened. And he really didn't have an
answer. Yeah, because who asked you
that? It's always like, oh, we don't
want to go. That's fucking weird.
What? That's awesome.
Yeah, I love to think. About that mental health that
reminds me of like the scene in Goodwill hunting where the guys
starting to be, you know, super smart and she's Matt Damon going
over there going fuck you. You know, you like apples.
How do you like them apples? You know, she's just like,
that's so stupid. Like why would would you do?
That and it's also like it comes back to safety too, like what we
started guides collective. The challenge that we're going
to have this next generation of psychedelic use is a lot of
people like that, do it a few times and they're like, oh, I
got it all figured out. It's time for me to give it to
other people. And like that's fundamentally
dangerous, right? So like the guides that we have
on our network, it's you go through a serious screening
process. We talk to the people that
you've worked with. It's what school did you go to?
How long you've been doing it? How many ceremonies have you
run? Are they in groups?
Are they by themselves? What medicines do you focus on?
What's the education you had behind that medicine?
We make sure of all those things because again, you can go out
and have a good trip and say, wow, that was fun.
I want to give it to someone. That person has severe trauma
that they didn't talk about and all of a sudden you're both on
mushrooms and someone is freaking out and nobody knows
what to do, right. And that's, that's how this,
this whole movement goes backwards again.
So that's why we really just want to focus on getting the
right people to the right people that can help and do the right
medicines and in the right doses and in the right setting.
And yeah, it's been our our focus, our mission.
I love this. So we are able to find, so you
guys have a website, everything. We'll put that down into the
show notes. We don't have to go over all of
that. What's the one thing that you
would tell our audience of being?
I mean, we've we've talked about everything kind of really in
depth, but I want to be broad here, just kind of like a, a
mental flash card for somebody. What's something that I need to
look out for and not trust in somebody who says, let me guide
you through your experience? So I don't think there's just
one thing you wanna, you wanna make sure that any guide you're
looking for is properly vetted. Just because they've had a
pause, like they have people that they've worked with well in
the past, doesn't mean that they're going to continue or
maintain an ethical standard. So you want to make, look, I
recommend speak to other people that they've worked with, but
you might also want to make sure that there's like a criminal
background check. And you want to make sure that
they adhere to certain ethical standards, that they have a
certain amount of training and that they have a certain amount
of experience and that they understand, you know,
contraindications and medical knowledge or that they have
access at least to somebody with medical knowledge.
Ask them what you know, what their protocol or practice would
be if there's an emergency. Right.
Like the same. Like the same.
Like we go for a second opinion when we're given a diagnosis
because we want to make sure that this is accurate.
This is equally as important. Ask more than one person, speak
to several people. Ask a lot of questions and there
isn't a dumb question. If you're not comfortable, trust
yourself. The other thing, like their
intake process matters a lot. So if someone just goes, sure,
I'll give you mushrooms, let's do it, That's a problem.
Like an intake should be robust. They should speak to you for an
hour. They should ask you what
medications you're on. They should want to know what
you're trying to get out of it. They should give you like two
weeks of preparation, tell you what your diet should be like.
There should be just a lot more in that intake process.
And the more robust that is, the better feeling you should have
with. It that gives a sense of, of
comfort because I, I, my mind goes to, I mean, my ADHD brain
just skipping all over the place.
But I laughed because I thought of this one old episode of The
Simpsons where the whole family goes to Duff Gardens, right?
Amusement park that has flowing beer everywhere.
That's, that's awesome. That place would stink.
But but Lisa falls into the river, and they pull her out and
she's hallucidating. And there's this guy, and he's
got a lab coat on. And he goes, OK, she'll be fine.
Just give her these, these and then all of these.
And it's like a handful, just a giant thing of pills.
And she goes, oh, thank you, doctor.
And he goes, oh, I'm not a doctor.
Yeah. And it was like, that's how you
should eat. I mean, that's like, again,
that's like going to the doctor's office.
And he's like, hey, turn around. I have to put my finger in your
ass because I got to check something out.
And you're like, OK, And then he like.
And then he comes over there and goes, all right, Doctor will be
in to see you in a little bit. Who's that guy?
I don't know what's going on you.
Didn't realize you were at the dentist the whole time.
What's? Going on.
Right. It's like a Saturday life skit
where I keep telling this guy to cough and then this other lady
comes in, he goes here. What do you think?
She goes turn your head and cough goes again.
And then the other guy comes in. He goes, hey man, you got to
come check this out. Go ahead, hold it over there.
And he coughs and then they all hold it in a unison and he's
coughing. And then this guy comes in, he
goes, hey, what the hell are you guys doing in here?
They're all get out of here. It's up and they're like, that
guy's the real Doctor Who came in.
And it's just like, that's the way I I'm thinking about it.
Like, would you trust somebody just because they give the
perception that they know what they're talking about, that they
know what they're doing? I think the safety part is
extremely important because when we're looking at this from a
broad scope, from so many people being accepting and seeing this
now in mainstream, I mean, in Utah, it was just legalized for
medical use. And so we'll see this start to
materialize and it'll be interesting to see because
there's so many people that are looking for answers.
They go to Western medicine, they go to diet and try to make
these changes. But it all starts in the Gray,
right? I mean, it's, you know, every
other organ we have in our body science pretty much knows what
it does. But the brain, they have ideas
of what it does, but we truly have no idea where.
It's so complex and so crazy. It's it, it's just when you're
using something to be able to help or to experience, right?
Either it's conscious, you know what, what was it?
It was a state or a. Altered states or altered
traits? Yeah, altered states, altered
traits, like thinking about that and having a guy being able to
work with you on that. Like what are you seeking?
What is it that you would want? Like I want to experience an
altered state. OK, why instead of going cool?
Right. Yeah, it was kind of interesting
because even when we started this business, like my, my
business before this, like I'm an Internet marketer, right?
So like even building the website, like, OK, everything
needs to be easy and seamless And the least, the least amount
of questions about like thinking of like how to sell a toaster,
right? And like in making this like if
you work with us, you're going to fill out a long form that
takes a little bit of time. If you're a guide that wants to
work with us, it's a pain in the ass.
Like you, it's, it's a lot of work.
And you know, when I stepped back and got out of my Internet
market mind, I'm like, no, this is, this is what we want.
Like it's This isn't supposed to be easy.
Like it's supposed to be done right?
With intent. Yeah, with intent.
And that's really what we want to focus on is.
Just yeah, you don't want that impulse by like I know being an
intermarketer Internet marketer for years too.
It's just, yeah, that's the goal, like less amount of words.
Use the most potent psychological tactics you can to
be able to influence them, to make them feel the FOMO.
Like this isn't a FOMO thing. That's not like everybody's
like, hey, you. Yeah, you look like you have
problems. Come here, come inside.
All right, Eat these and sit over there.
Don't worry. Just look at the ceiling.
We've painted it root and swirly.
You're like I, I don't know if I should be doing this course.
You should. That guy has a lab coat over
there. Just turn your head and cough
turn your. Head and cough.
Well, it's like, it's like what we talked about before, like one
of the funniest things we have with this podcast is like I
literally said to people, I'm like, I get out of things and I
go and they'll go, hey, you can't do that.
I'm like, that's OK. I have a podcast and they go,
OK, OK. So I mean it just shows that
people are are it's not gullible.
They just are so quick to trust authority.
Yep. So if you're going to have some
of the authority going, wait a minute.
Like, like recently, OK, Like I'm in the coaching world and
Jay Shetty, There's a huge thing out on Jay Shetty, which is
funny because people have been saying about this for years.
And he takes other people's inspirational quotes and then
puts it and then puts it as he he said it.
Doesn't even change a word. No, he could have written the 10
commandments, put it on a tweet and then said Jay Shetty gonna
be like, oh, well, I have been fooled for years.
Who wrote this nonsense? It was this guy here, clearly
the British man with blue eyes and he looks Indian and he's a
monk supposedly, but doesn't matter.
Like that's something you should check because even though
somebody could have the best intentions, have a skill set if
you will, they still should be considered more taking this on
a, dare I say a professional level because these people are
looking for that. They don't want to have this
like one experience. I heard of this guy.
I mean, he said it was a very beautiful experience, but I
could only imagine it'd be weird.
I think he's like ACPA and he was very LDS and he was growing
it in his office. And then one day he just locked
his door and did 5G and he stripped himself naked, got
underneath the blanket and stayed there for the next 4
hours. And he was like, and he went
through a lot of childhood trauma in that time and came out
just like, oh, and his biggest fear, it wasn't even the
childhood trauma. I can't tell my wife, I can't
tell my kids. They would think so low of me.
And it's, it's just like you said with your sister and your
mom, you're like, oh, we could be connected so much more and
you would understand. You would understand.
And that's that that's the that allure to it.
It's this this mirage that's in the in the in the far distance.
You're going. OK, well, yeah, maybe I could
touch it, but that sounds scary. Yeah.
It, it materializes. It becomes real.
Yeah. This is awesome.
This has been great. This has been fantastic.
Thanks for coming on the show you guys.
It was the pleasure was all ours guys.
The the second I met you, Justin was like, oh, I love him.
I love him. We shall be friends.
Yes. So yeah, it was it was awesome
coming out here. Well, and, and we appreciate you
guys coming out. We'll make sure to put all the
links over there. If you are looking to try
psychedelics, if you're interested in what psychedelics
can do for you, if you're looking for a guide, you guys go
down there. Click on the link to be able to
get in touch with these amazing individuals.
And who knows, maybe your next psychedelic journey will be the
best you've ever experienced. Brandon, parting words.
Guys, everyone at Home Pay Transporters, we love you guys.
Thanks so much for tuning in. As always, see you next week.