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Welcome to another episode of 
FAX. 

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I'm your host Stephen Boyce, 
joined by my Co host Pat May. 

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Good evening, Stephen. 
Good evening, Pat. 

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We're back on John Calvin. 
Well, I I said it's been down 

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here the entire week between. 
However, we have not stopped 

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studying his statements. 
Yep, it's probably probably a 

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good thing. 
We need to let the public know, 

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don't we? 
Let the world know how crazy, I 

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mean, how, how sincere John 
Calvin was. 

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No. 
Shout it from the rooftops. 

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One of the things that anybody 
who reads Calvin will note, 

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though, is that he is fully 
integrated in Agustin's riding. 

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Oh yes, that is very common 
thought amongst Protestant 

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scholars. 
Some have estimated there's 

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really no knowledge of an exact 
number as far as his institutes 

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go, that he cites Augustine more
than three. 100 times. 

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Now we don't know the exact 
number, but it's probably pretty

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accurate in how common he 
references either City of God or

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some of his other works. 
Or makes allusions to to them. 

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But the reality is people have 
kind of taken an anachronistic 

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view and impose Calvinism, which
came much, much later on. 

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Augustine saying, we'll see. 
They agree, therefore Augustine 

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was Reformed, or therefore 
Augustine was. 

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Yeah, right. 
Yeah. 

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Well, we've heard people say 
that we've been entirely 

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Protestant. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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It's insane. 
And So what we want to do today 

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is we kind of want to evaluate 
what was Augustine and then 

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what? 
What does that make Calvin? 

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Because we got to start earlier.
I don't like starting with a 

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later person. 
I'd like to start earlier. 

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So if he's quoting him 
constantly and a lot of 

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Protestants come along and say, 
you know, Augustine's a great 

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proof of reformational theology 
and that it existed long before 

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the 16th century, and they're 
actually recapturing something 

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that went back to Augustine, our
immediate reaction is to go, 

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man, wow. 
Augustine held to Protestant 

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theology. 
And then you actually start 

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looking at the two and what 
we're going to do is some side 

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by side comparison. 
Gustin believed in the 30 minute

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music show and then the pastor 
speaking for 45 minutes. 

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You know, we got criticized in 
the last episode for talking 

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about Pastor Jim's outfit. 
I'm not even kidding. 

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It's in the. 
It's in the Dispatch. 

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I was like, this guy's here. 
I thought he was being funny, 

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but he was dead soon. 
He was dead serious, Yeah. 

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And so I feel sad. 
I don't. 

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I don't even know. 
We try to have fun in the show. 

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Apparently when we're trying to 
have fun, we ruin it for others.

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But really, I mean, when we 
examine the life of Augustine 

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and his purpose as somebody who 
was a leader in the Church of 

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North Africa. 
And then Augustine, you know, 

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how he relates to the papacy or 
how he relates to the teachings 

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of the church or what he says 
about the church. 

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And then you go to Calvin in 
Geneva and we're supposed to 

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believe that he's this really 
good Augustinian. 

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And then that's what we're going
to evaluate. 

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Is he a real Augustinian? 
Yeah, and of course, the irony 

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is that Martin Luther, who came 
before Calvin, was an 

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Augustinian monk. 
True. 

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And they didn't agree with each 
other on some things, which is 

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kind of interesting. 
Yeah. 

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And typically where there seems 
to be some commonality with 

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reform thinking and Augustine 
comes down to the doctrines of 

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grace. 
Yep, terms like predestination. 

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Or election. 
Election is a big one. 

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Justification is a big 
discussion. 

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Where there's going to see some 
harsh friction, I guess, would 

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be on subjects of like purgatory
or prayers for the dead or 

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church authority, authority in 
the church Bishop. 

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Yeah, much of much of this 
revolves around the question. 

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You know, I was listening to a 
podcast and it was a, it was a 

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couple of Protestants and a 
Catholic and an Orthodox 

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speaking about general topics 
where there were agreements and 

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disagreements and the 
Protestants and I was, I was 

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this way too. 
I'll say that I was this way. 

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What we're saying that the, the 
most important question that has

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to be answered is where will I 
spend eternity? 

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And I, you know, Steven, I sat 
there. 

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I sat there thinking about that.
And Martin Luther was very 

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similar to that. 
He he said the most important 

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question was how can a man be 
justified, right. 

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That was the most important 
question. 

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I sit there thinking about that.
I was like, you know, that was 

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not the most important question 
to church fathers. 

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The most important question. 
Yeah. 

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The most important question to 
church fathers was who's Jesus 

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and who is Jesus to us? 
And that's very ironic because 

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that's the very question that 
Jesus will ask his disciples. 

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Who do people say that I am? 
And that's the question that we 

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as humans have to actually 
wrestle with the most. 

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Who is Jesus to us? 
Who is he? 

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And it, it was just interesting 
thing, you know, and, and again,

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that goes back to the reference,
the reformers, the magisterial 

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reformers, Calvin and Luther, 
they were answering a question, 

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I think that wasn't being asked.
Yeah, I think that's a good 

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point because I think when you 
look at the Reformation, they're

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enamored with this concept. 
And then you read that third and

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4th and 5th century period, 
they're they're not debating 

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these things. 
Even the major ecumenical 

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councils are not debating 
subjects like justification, 

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sanctification, glorification. 
They're not, they're, they're 

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debating the idea of homo 
ousius, homo Ousius, or was 

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Jesus, you know, fully God, 
fully man, partially half the 

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atochos. 
These are the subject. 

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Matter in relation to who Christ
is? 

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Yeah, Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

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And, and even in the, in the 
subjects in North Africa where 

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you see, you know, Pelagius, for
example, who took kind of over 

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that region, a lot of people 
became part of Pelagianism. 

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The subject at hand was the 
condition of man pre fall, post 

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fall, like what happened pre 
what happened post, And so these

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are the fights that they were 
having. 

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Justification came up in the 
discussion between Pelagius and,

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say, Augustine, but not to the 
obsessive end that we see in the

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Protestant Reformation or to 
this day. 

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In the modern Protestant. 
Absolutely it is. 

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It is the IT is the end of every
sermon. 

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It is the reason for altar 
calls, the whole thing. 

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So when most people come to the 
Protestant Reformation and they 

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look at Augustine, they see a 
lot of similarities, and they 

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go, oh, there's a connection 
here. 

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Yeah. 
But the question that we're 

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gonna ask is, did Calvin recover
Augustine, Right. 

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Like, did he recover something 
that went missing for a long 

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time or disappeared? 
And I know people didn't like me

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using that word in the last 
episode. 

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I'm not saying that's exactly 
what he said. 

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I'm saying that you have to come
to a conclusion that it is 

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implied. 
He never made that claim per SE,

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but it must be implied. 
Something disappeared and then 

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recovered itself within this 
reformation where they're 

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looking at documents. 
Maybe we don't have whatever you

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got to conclude. 
So here's a couple of common 

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factors. 
Let's talk about where the 

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reformed teaching and Augustine 
have the same vocabulary. 

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Now they may have different 
dictionaries, but they have that

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least the same vocabulary. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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And I think it's important to 
note that, by the way, because a

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lot of times we talk over each 
other's heads where we actually 

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have a different vocabulary with
the same dictionary. 

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And what I mean by that is 
there's conversations that I 

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used to have when I debated 
Jimmy Aiken and Trent Horn with 

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Samuel Neeson on the subject of 
justification. 

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We were saying the same thing by
the end of the debate, but boy, 

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we were using different words. 
Our definitions came to the same

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doctrine, but our terms were 
different. 

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There's a reverse of that too, 
Pat. 

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A lot of times in Christianity 
we see the same term. 

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Right. 
Yeah. 

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But there's actually a different
definition. 

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Correct. 
Yeah, there. 

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You mean something different 
with the word you're using. 

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So we got to be careful. 
It's like The Princess Bride. 

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I don't think that word means 
what you think. 

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I don't. 
Think that word means what you 

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think it means. 
Inconceivable. 

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Inconceivable. 
That's the thing, right? 

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We, we look at these these men 
in history and we see a word. 

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Yeah. 
And we go, oh, we're talking 

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about the same thing maybe. 
Or we see a different word and 

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say we're talking about 
different things. 

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Actually, you might be talking 
about the same thing, but you 

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use a different term for it. 
So we need to always look at the

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full body of work of a comment 
or statement or quote and say, 

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is it representing both 
terminology and definition? 

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Yeah. 
Is the etymology the same here? 

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Right. 
These are important questions. 

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I think they get missed in 
study. 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
We talk over each other and we 

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we're lost in translation. 
So let's talk about where they 

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seem to at least have the same 
vocab, Right? 

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Right. 
Yeah. 

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Original sin. 
Yeah, and honestly, the teaching

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of the Catholic Church on this 
is the same pretty much than 

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Protestant in the sense of 
Protestant teaching. 

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Definitely. 
There's common agreement here, 

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yeah. 
There are people that take that 

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to a new level in the Protestant
group where they talk about 

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total depravity and total 
inability. 

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Because of it, they flatten it 
out. 

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That goes beyond really what the
way the early Church and the 

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Catholic Church uses it. 
But but the idea of original sin

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is there. 
Mm hmm. 

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The debate may come from, like, 
what do we say about original 

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sin and original guilt, right? 
There might be some fight there.

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There's some common ground 
there, but also some fight 

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there, too. 
And Augustine certainly taught 

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the doctrine of original sin. 
This is the biggest fight 

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against Pelagius. 
Correct. 

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Yeah, that was the that was the 
really central argument against 

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Pelagianism. 
Augustine also taught that grace

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must come before faith. 
Like no one can just conjure up 

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the ability to go correct. 
I want to believe. 

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God, yeah. 
Grace initiates faith. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
Which is the order of the New 

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Testament, for by grace you are 
saved through faith. 

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Through faith and initiating 
grace is something that God 

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gives to all of us as human 
beings in order for us to have 

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that divine life with Him, to 
have to participate in that 

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divine life. 
But here's where maybe the 

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definitions are different, 
though the terminology is the 

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same. 
The reformers had some level of 

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sacramentology, some level, 
especially the magisterial. 

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Reform, Yeah. 
Especially the early reformers, 

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yeah. 
But Augustine would not. 

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All of them, No, no, no, no. 
But Augustine would take it very

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deep in the sense of grace is 
being given through the 

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sacraments. 
Yeah, grace is given through 

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means, ordinary means and 
extraordinary means. 

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Well said. 
And Augustine knew that concept.

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In fact, he uses it often. 
So, for example, baptism was a 

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means of grace. 
Yes, it was efficacious. 

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So a child being baptized 
doesn't work in that child, 

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which will lead them to the 
ability, by that grace, to 

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believe. 
Correct. 

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Later life and and that's 
actually, there's no better 

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expression of grace being 
initiative towards us from God 

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than infant baptism, because an 
infant's not doing anything. 

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It's it's completely passive, 
but you see God's grace at work 

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operably within that child's 
life, changing that child from 

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one who is dead to sin and one 
who is alive to God. 

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Yes. 
And with that being said, you 

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have to think of from this 
perspective, right? 

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The Reformers wouldn't dispute 
that either. 

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Because Calvin believed you 
ought to baptize children and 

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infants, so did Luther. 
They may not have believed it to

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the effects of maybe some of the
earlier Apostolic fathers or 

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some of these patristics, but he
certainly believed withholding 

230
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,480
baptism for a child is is 
dangerous. 

231
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:36,520
Dangerous. 
Yeah, very. 

232
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,960
And to re baptize is. 
Foolish. 

233
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,600
It's foolish, Yeah. 
Because it. 

234
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,120
Yeah. 
They they did not like the 

235
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,600
Anabaptist for this. 
They mocked them. 

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00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:48,200
They were complete. 
Disrespect. 

237
00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,880
Yeah, so there were common, 
there were dissing them, there 

238
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,160
were common factors here at 
least on that Gus and taught 

239
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,920
that man cannot be saved in and 
of himself. 

240
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,120
And the Catholic Church believes
that. 

241
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,320
Yeah, yeah. 
So there's that. 

242
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,000
And and of course, Calvin landed
there. 

243
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,760
Yeah. 
He also taught perseverance of 

244
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,200
grace. 
So grace is the means. 

245
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,920
And then there's a perseverance 
that continues in that means. 

246
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,640
And that it doesn't come by 
conjuring up in your own body 

247
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,560
and your own want, your own 
will, because we'd all fail, but

248
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:20,800
rather there is a gift of 
perseverance now. 

249
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,000
But again, Calvin would teach 
that that happens for All 

250
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,280
Saints, everybody. 
Augustine would teach that 

251
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:33,840
certain Saints are given that 
gift, but there are some that 

252
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,640
are not, but they can still 
persevere and be restored. 

253
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,080
So he did believe that some were
given that gift. 

254
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,040
So there is a commonality, but 
how you define that break that 

255
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,760
down. 
There actually is a difference 

256
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,320
between Augustine and Calvin. 
Yeah, I would say that there's 

257
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,320
also the Sacramento consequence 
for Augustine in that 

258
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,120
conversation, Right. 
So, you know, the fact is 

259
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,000
perseverance is not something 
that we do on our own merit, 

260
00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:58,720
right? 
Why? 

261
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,160
Well, because we need the 
sacraments to help us persevere.

262
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,920
So you need the sacrament of 
confession, Yes, which is an 

263
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,720
additional washing of your sins 
when you go to seek forgiveness.

264
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,200
And the priest is there in the 
person of Christ, anima 

265
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,920
Christie, to offer you 
absolution, to hear your sin, to

266
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,200
offer you absolution in the 
person of Christ, as God is 

267
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,400
doing the forgiving part of it. 
But the priest is speaking on 

268
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,560
behalf of God, which is what a 
priest should do. 

269
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,360
Now, Calvin wouldn't be on board
with that, correct? 

270
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,760
Luther was people. 
People kind of debate whether 

271
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,160
Luther held a three or two or 2 
1/2 and the the half or the 

272
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,160
third would be the sacrament of 
confession because he still 

273
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,320
believed that was an important 
act. 

274
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,400
Calvin was not as much on board 
with that as as Luther. 

275
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400
I'm not saying he was a fully 
against it, but Luther was more 

276
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,360
on board with the concept of 
confession and absolution than 

277
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,120
Calvin was. 
So that would leave the 

278
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:55,600
distinction there with 
Augustine. 

279
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,880
But Augustine also believed a 
lot of things that Protestants 

280
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,720
will not believe and just choose
not to. 

281
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,000
For example, he defended the 
authority, the Church. 

282
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,320
He appealed to Apostolic 
succession all the time. 

283
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,880
He prayed for the dead and asked
prayers from the dead. 

284
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,840
He believes some souls undergo 
purification, post mortem or 

285
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,080
purgation. 
He viewed justification as 

286
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,240
transformation Transformation, 
not just some sort of. 

287
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,800
Declaring. 
I declare legal stance. 

288
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,920
The legal? 
Yeah, the legal juridical and. 

289
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,240
We'll get into that, you know, 
and he held a deeply Sacramento 

290
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,760
world view. 
Can we sit there and count all 7

291
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,400
sacraments from Agustin? 
I mean, you could, you could 

292
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,800
play into it and say that he 
defined what would become seven.

293
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,400
But he certainly had a larger 
sacramentology of of the 

294
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,720
Christian life then say Calvin 
or some. 

295
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,200
Yeah, well, he speaks his 
marriage the means of grace. 

296
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,360
Yeah. 
And that's Sacramento, 

297
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:57,560
obviously. 
Baptism. 

298
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,800
Yeah. 
And, and clearly holy order is 

299
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,920
just the mere fact of how he 
speaks about succession and he 

300
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,120
speaks about the the callings of
God. 

301
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,960
So I mean, you can again, you 
could formalize it and say, I 

302
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,760
mean, he never said these are 
the seven sacraments of the 

303
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,480
Church, but he clearly held to a
very Sacramento. 

304
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,000
Worldview. 
Very much so, yeah. 

305
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,400
So tonight's question is simple.
Did Calvin quote Agustin 

306
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,600
accurately while still misusing 
him? 

307
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,120
Because that's the answer. 
And the question or the answer 

308
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,440
to that question is yes, often 
he does. 

309
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,200
The real question is not whether
Augustine of Hippo was a 

310
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,400
Calvinist. 
See, that's that's starting in 

311
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,080
the wrong part of history. 
That's the anachronistic problem

312
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,320
here is everybody wants to look 
at the Reformation and then go 

313
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,880
backward instead of starting at 
Augustine and working. 

314
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,800
And work forward. 
And so the question isn't 

315
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,960
whether or not Augustine of 
Hippo was Calvinist. 

316
00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,240
That's a 5th century Bishop to 
fit into a 16th century 

317
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,760
category. 
And that's not it's not fair to 

318
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,920
do. 
The real question is whether 

319
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,160
John Calvin was a good 
Augustinian. 

320
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,560
And held to the same faith that 
that Agustin did. 

321
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,119
And So what we'll do is we're 
going to look at a couple 

322
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:14,319
things. 
We're going to break this down. 

323
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,160
Let's talk about the one thing 
that they seem to have some 

324
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,400
commonality to human ability, 
human inability, grace, No 

325
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,200
grace. 
Let's start with that. 

326
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:27,920
Let's take a couple of quotes, 
Augustine of Hippo on Grace and 

327
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,000
Free will Chapter 2. 
He says quote for free will can 

328
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:38,000
do nothing except sin if the way
of truth lies hidden. 

329
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,520
Now in the Institute's, John 
Calvin says man is so enslaved 

330
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,840
by the yoke of sin that he 
cannot of his own nature aim at 

331
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,160
the good. 
So both men reject the idea that

332
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,840
fallen man can just simply come 
to God without aid. 

333
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,960
They both seem to agree there. 
Augustine says the will left to 

334
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,040
itself is powerless when the 
truth is hidden. 

335
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,760
Calvin says men are enslaved to 
this sin and they cannot aim at 

336
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,960
the good by their own nature. 
So they seem to agree here on 

337
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,360
what some would call total 
depravity, but I think there 

338
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,640
needs to be a caveat here. 
What would what would you say we

339
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,560
need to put a caveat here for? 
Well, I would I would argue that

340
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,080
Augustine is coming from a 
framework of what the early 

341
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,960
fathers before him also taught 
about the human being which has 

342
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,360
created an image of God and is 
not utterly depraved or totally 

343
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,800
depraved. 
He is stained with the effects 

344
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,400
of sin and concupiscence. 
And So what that means is and, 

345
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,800
and this is all in Augustine's 
second part of that, that 

346
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:54,120
clause, if the way of truth lies
hidden for Augustine, what he, 

347
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,760
what he understood about that is
the way of truth isn't hidden 

348
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,560
because the church is 
proclaiming the truth to the 

349
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,360
world. 
And therefore you can come, you 

350
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:07,920
can come and God can draw you 
through his grace. 

351
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,960
The grace is doing the work of 
initiating that in in the life 

352
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,960
of of the soul of a human being,
but you are not hidden from it. 

353
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,320
Yeah, there's got to be a part 
of this where and and I did as a

354
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,680
time, as a time, I don't know 
how many years ago that was as a

355
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,760
Calvinist. 
It's been a few years, but as 

356
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,480
that Calvinistic worldview, I 
saw these commonalities and I 

357
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,520
go, oh, I agree with that. 
And then I would use Agustin. 

358
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,320
The difference is, is that total
depravity and total inability 

359
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,720
need to be clarified because if 
you're asking me is a person 

360
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,440
spiritually dead and incapable 
of obtaining righteousness on 

361
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,400
his own, I would say yes. 
Yeah, and so would the Catholic 

362
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:48,960
Church. 
Yeah. 

363
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,080
But if you're saying can a 
totally depraved person do good,

364
00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:00,080
well, of course there's totally 
depraved unsaved people who do 

365
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:05,480
acts of good toward community 
and children and wife or husband

366
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,400
or whatever the situation is all
the time. 

367
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,360
In fact, sometimes they outdo 
people who are Christians. 

368
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:18,520
And so when we talk about the 
human body, mind will emotion, 

369
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,480
yes. 
We are dead in trespasses and 

370
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,760
sin. 
Yes, we are depraved, but as you

371
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,200
stated, when you look at it, we 
are made in the image of God. 

372
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,200
Therefore we do reflect God. 
Like thinking and actions and 

373
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,440
morality. 
We are gauged by that morality. 

374
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,040
We have the law written in our 
hearts and we're going to be 

375
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,800
held accountable to that. 
So clearly we can choose to 

376
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,960
violate our conscience or obey 
it, and obeying it is actually 

377
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,360
living within the grace God gave
us in the conscience. 

378
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,040
Because that's the grace of God 
at work. 

379
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,840
And Paul even speaks about that 
in his letter to the Corinthians

380
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,200
where he talks about this, this 
idea of being being drawn by 

381
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,880
your conscience or your 
conscience can be seared. 

382
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,800
And when your conscience is 
seared, that means you are in a 

383
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,280
place of danger. 
You're in a place of danger 

384
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,360
because your soul's at danger. 
You can no longer be wooed. 

385
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,200
You can no longer be drawn 
because you're so you're so 

386
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,840
enraptured by living in the in 
the, in the life of sin. 

387
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,840
You can't even hear the voice of
God. 

388
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,280
But for Agustin, that doesn't 
mean that you're totally 

389
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,600
depraved. 
It just means that you are. 

390
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,360
The truth is hidden from you. 
And the only way you're going to

391
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:32,040
come out of that is if God does 
a really incredible work in your

392
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,080
life that wakes you up, which he
can. 

393
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,360
Yeah, sure. 
Which he can. 

394
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,120
And, and, and again, this is 
what the church is always 

395
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:40,720
taught. 
Like they don't teach anything 

396
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,080
different than that. 
There there's this idea that 

397
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,000
that people believe the Catholic
Church teaches that we can do 

398
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,920
our own, we can do good by our 
own merit. 

399
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,560
No, it's all by the grace of 
God. 

400
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,000
It's all by God's power working 
in and through us, everything we

401
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,800
do. 
And you spoke about the person 

402
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,800
who is not a believer sometimes 
acts better or treats family 

403
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,840
members better than than 
Christians do. 

404
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,360
And that's absolutely right. 
What the church would say is 

405
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,920
that good doesn't do them any 
good for. 

406
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,760
Their It doesn't get to heaven 
like you're a good husband. 

407
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,640
Come on. 
In right that that's not what's 

408
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:13,920
happening. 
But it doesn't mean that they're

409
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,320
incapable of doing good. 
And and we see, we even see 

410
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,760
people that were kind of God 
fears before their conversion. 

411
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,280
Look at Cornelius. 
In the book he was a God Fear. 

412
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,520
He was a God fear, but yet not 
yet regenerate. 

413
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:27,800
Right, he didn't have the Holy 
Spirit. 

414
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,320
So it it took, but what did God 
do? 

415
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,760
He was obeying what grace and 
light he was given and he sends 

416
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:38,520
the final message he needed to 
bring that conversion. 

417
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,440
God doesn't we want people to to
think of salvation as God just 

418
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,040
zaps somebody and converts them 
rather than sometimes God woos 

419
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,360
and draws a person through means
of grace through the heavens, 

420
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,480
declaring the glory of God and 
somebody studying and and and 

421
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,640
pondering or they're, they're 
thinking about the idea of 

422
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,120
morality or they're living into 
the idea of morals and they go, 

423
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,920
wait, if I have moral standard, 
there must be a superior 

424
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,600
authority. 
And then that leads people. 

425
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,800
You are following the light that
God has given you, and any light

426
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,600
God has given you to obey is the
very. 

427
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,400
Grace, The very grace. 
That God uses because he reigns 

428
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,080
on the just and the unjust. 
Correct. 

429
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:20,360
And then that's where it the way
of truth wise hidden. 

430
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,080
But it's not hidden if God 
reveals it. 

431
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,920
Correct. 
So there is a distinction here 

432
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,520
though. 
There is an agreement that man 

433
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,120
is stained by original sin. 
Correct. 

434
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,120
Yeah. 
And incapable of getting to God 

435
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:33,240
independently and on His. 
Own Yeah, Let me say this again 

436
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,000
for everyone who's listening 
Catholic. 

437
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,440
The Catholic Church does not 
teach that you can save 

438
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,240
yourself. 
No, It just does not. 

439
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,080
No. 
You cannot merit your way in. 

440
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,960
You can't do it, so let's talk 
about there also seems to be 

441
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,080
agreement of grace must precede 
faith, Agustin says on 

442
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,040
Predestination of the Saints, 
chapter 5. 

443
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,560
Therefore, both to begin to have
faith and to continue in faith 

444
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:02,960
that's perseverance, are gifts 
of God both to begin and to 

445
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,000
continue to. 
Continue, Calvin. 

446
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:10,440
Right, Calvin says in 
Institute's 3 1.4 Faith is the 

447
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,560
principal work of the Holy. 
Spirit, in other words, faith, 

448
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,960
is a gift. 
Neither man here believes faith 

449
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,680
originated on somebody's own 
will or merits. 

450
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,560
Like oh I, I just conjured this 
up in my brain today. 

451
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,560
No, both play saving faith under
the priority of divine grace 

452
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,400
intervening on behalf of that 
person. 

453
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,280
Both believe grace precedes. 
Faith and then faith is also a 

454
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,200
gift of God and and you know 
this, this is for those of our 

455
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,560
in our audience who might be of 
a different denominational 

456
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,440
stripe that don't understand 
this because they haven't 

457
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,960
learned reform theology, much 
less Gothic theology. 

458
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,240
But there are those out there 
who are thinking, I thought 

459
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,960
faith is something that I that 
I'm doing. 

460
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:01,080
And and that's where modern 
fundamentalism has crept into 

461
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,880
teaching that has corrupted this
idea that you somehow are 

462
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,600
operating in your own way and in
your own power in believing. 

463
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,640
It's actually God giving you the
grace to believe. 

464
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,720
And that's what makes faith a 
gift. 

465
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,720
And and Augustine would say 
predestination is also a gift. 

466
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,200
Yes, that's. 
Also a gift. 

467
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,120
And so this is what I'm saying. 
This is where it gets dangerous 

468
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:27,240
because like, see, see, 
Augustine's a Calvinist and it's

469
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,440
like as if, you know, he read 
Calvin's Institutes or 

470
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,280
something. 
We know it's the other way 

471
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,480
around. 
We've got to stop doing this, 

472
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,920
Pat. 
We've got to stop reading 

473
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,480
Augustine and saying that's 
Calvinism. 

474
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,760
Yeah, yeah. 
But that's because that's the 

475
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,520
that's the theological framework
we often think through. 

476
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,840
It's anachronistic, it's wrong, 
bad, it's not the way you. 

477
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,600
Read Calvin and you haven't read
the Church Fathers. 

478
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,800
You need to do more study. 
It's not the way to handle this.

479
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,800
So let's talk about that leads 
into perseverance because he 

480
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,520
mentioned it in that quote as 
well. 

481
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,640
He says this gift of God, namely
perseverance. 

482
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,600
Almost a distinct gift. 
Very both are grace, he says. 

483
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:13,640
Perseverance unto the end is 
given only to those who will 

484
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,000
live forever with Christ. 
That's on the gifts of 

485
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:17,840
perseverance. 
Yeah. 

486
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,520
And he's he's actually just, if 
you read on the gift of 

487
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,560
perseverance, he's actually 
expounding Jesus's in the in the

488
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,720
Gospel where Jesus says he who 
perseveres to the end will be 

489
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,840
saved. 
Like it's just a complete 

490
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,360
exposition of that. 
Yeah. 

491
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,840
And so he's not, it's not an 
independent statement of like 

492
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,720
this is what I think. 
It's like an exposition of the 

493
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,720
text. 
Yeah, yeah. 

494
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,840
But Calvin obviously says 
something he does Perseverance 

495
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:50,080
is the gift of God. 
Now again, both men look at the 

496
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,720
same doctrine and go. 
There's a doctrine of 

497
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,120
perseverance, grace, 
perseverance, and man who's 

498
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,880
found in bondage in his fallen 
state. 

499
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,480
But Calvin is drawing from an 
Augustan teaching here. 

500
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,920
The fact is, though, Augustan 
didn't take the absolute 

501
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,560
approach that Calvin did on the 
perseverance. 

502
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,520
So Augustan believed that 
somebody could fail to 

503
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:21,200
persevere, be restored and come 
back to the faith. 

504
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,920
That's right. 
And that the faith that preceded

505
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,400
that falling away was real. 
Yeah, it was. 

506
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,200
Real faith. 
You ask a Calvinist today, and I

507
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,680
believe this too. 
It's like, well, what happens if

508
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,160
they go into this state of sin, 
which they refuse to call mortal

509
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,520
sin, right. 
They go in the state of sin. 

510
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,400
They live in the state of sin. 
What is that person pre? 

511
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,080
Oh, they were never saved again,
right. 

512
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,680
They weren't truly, truly elect.
That's not Yeah, Augustine would

513
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,760
not say, Oh no, they were never 
elect to begin with. 

514
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,800
That is the danger here, because
this idea of perseverance of the

515
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,840
Saints has been interpreted in 
modern thinking today in 

516
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,440
Protestant circles as eternal 
security. 

517
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,960
Yeah, yeah, there's other terms 
and people and I give it one 

518
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,840
save to always. 
Say, and there are Catholics who

519
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,080
do that. 
And I want to say to our 

520
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,600
Catholic brothers and sisters, 
stop saying that because there's

521
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,160
a difference between 
perseverance and once saved, 

522
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,520
always saved. 
That's completely different when

523
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,280
when perseverance has seen the 
correct. 

524
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:17,400
Way. 
Yeah, No, I agree with you. 

525
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,640
And and and every side falls 
into pits. 

526
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,400
No, I'm furious. 
Like they do. 

527
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,160
Like the Catholics have worded 
things a certain way where 

528
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,800
you're sitting there going. 
What are you talking about? 

529
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,440
Like the catechism doesn't 
teach. 

530
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,760
That that's like, what are you 
saying? 

531
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,880
Right now and and don't. 
Don't conflate Protestantisms 

532
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,880
together When there's all, 
there's sometimes there's 

533
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,240
disagreement about that. 
When when you and I were Baptist

534
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,360
and we were Southern Baptist, it
was once saved, always saved. 

535
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,120
And then we read Calvin. 
We were like, oh, this makes so 

536
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,320
much more sense. 
You know, the the gift of 

537
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,240
perseverance means something. 
And yeah, you know, those who 

538
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,760
persevere will be saved. 
But getting back to the 

539
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,160
conversation, Augustine is not 
in total agreement with Calvin 

540
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,360
here. 
Or should I say, Calvin is not 

541
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,360
an agreement with Augustine 
because again, and this all 

542
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,680
revolves around the sacraments, 
folks, Augustine believed 

543
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,080
baptism was absolutely real and 
efficacious. 

544
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,480
An indelible mark left on a 
person. 

545
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,120
And he also believed that the 
ability to be restored from 

546
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,480
mortal sin comes through 
confession, absolution. 

547
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,400
And so here's something to think
about too. 

548
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,320
And, and by the way, we get lost
in the weeds in this, I think 

549
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,760
it's unnecessary. 
I talked about this to a person 

550
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,200
the other day. 
Actually, I was having this 

551
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,680
conversation about the state of 
the person who falls away, 

552
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,960
right. 
If we look at a person, you take

553
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,400
a Calvinist and a Catholic, you 
put them in a room, they look at

554
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,600
a person's life, They go to an 
altar. 

555
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,760
Once Upon a time, you know, the 
typical, they made a prayer of 

556
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,360
confession, Lord Jesus save me 
from my sin to the Romans road 

557
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,600
or something like that. 
They get baptized years later, 

558
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,880
they go into a state of complete
sin. 

559
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,520
That is their life. 
They they get hooked on 

560
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,080
something and then they destroy 
their life. 

561
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,680
They ruin it. 
You look at both people, the 

562
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,400
Calvinists, a Catholic, you say,
what does that person need? 

563
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,000
And both would say grace and 
faith and salvation. 

564
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,240
They would both say that that 
person needs to be saved, they 

565
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,160
need God's grace, they need to 
exercise faith here. 

566
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,880
They need to come back and 
repentance. 

567
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,320
They need forgiveness. 
Both would say that and then you

568
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,360
would say that the person, that 
person in that state, what are 

569
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,880
they? 
And there there might not be 

570
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,280
dogmatic language on either side
here that say they're probably 

571
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,840
lost, or they're probably not 
saved, or they're in a state of 

572
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,640
possible damnation. 
I think the Catholic, let's say 

573
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,080
that there's danger. 
There's danger. 

574
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,720
There's possible damnation of 
the. 

575
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,040
And a good Calvinist will say we
don't know, but it looks like. 

576
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,400
So both would years. 
Both would put a major doubt in 

577
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,080
that person's condition and both
would have the same solution. 

578
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,200
Yep, where they fight is what 
was the state of the man. 

579
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,240
Before, yeah. 
Before that, yeah. 

580
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,080
And so at the end of the day, 
does it really matter? 

581
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,840
No, because we're. 
Because you're debating 

582
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,600
something that's a matter that's
not the necessity. 

583
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,640
Anymore, yeah, but it does 
matter in terms of sacraments, 

584
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,120
right? 
The sacraments are real, Baptism

585
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,920
is real, the Eucharist is real, 
it's efficacious, it gives, it's

586
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,000
doing something salvific in our 
lives. 

587
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,720
Jesus said unless you eat the 
flesh and son of man and drink 

588
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,680
his blood, you will have no life
like you. 

589
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,000
That word unless is exactly what
it says in the Greek. 

590
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,840
You don't have life if you don't
have this. 

591
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,080
Know this, know that. 
Right. 

592
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,960
And Jesus said about baptism, 
unless one is born of the Spirit

593
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,040
and water, he will not enter the
Kingdom of God. 

594
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,840
Again, the same word unless and 
thank you Apostle John, my 

595
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,960
patriot St. who pointed that out
in his Gospel because he was 

596
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,400
doing a theological exposition 
of the sacraments in this gospel

597
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,360
word. 
The fact is, sacraments and 

598
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,120
Augustine's mind did real 
salvific work, and that's 

599
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,960
Hebrews by. 
The way it's Hebrews all the way

600
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,680
through, especially the 
controversial, you know, if they

601
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,680
were to sin in this way. 
Yeah, like that whole debate, 

602
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,440
everybody, the Armenian, the 
Calvinist, everybody comes that 

603
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,040
passage. 
At the end of the day, the 

604
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,800
solutions would be the same, but
we would believe as Catholics 

605
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,800
that that that faith that was 
being exercised at one point 

606
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,280
wasn't like or they're putting 
on a show people, no genuine 

607
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,520
sincerity. 
I know atheists. 

608
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:23,960
I know atheists who are fully 
persuaded in their atheism, who 

609
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,960
made professions of faith, who 
were baptized, and they were 

610
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,480
sincere. 
And I don't think, and I've 

611
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,760
heard people say this to them, 
to their faces. 

612
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,480
You're lying. 
And it's like. 

613
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,360
I I don't. 
Think they can't? 

614
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,840
Do that I've seen. 
I've seen them preach. 

615
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,640
I've watched those people that 
are atheists preach sermons. 

616
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,160
I've studied scripture with 
them. 

617
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,280
I've heard them pray. 
If that was fake, they weren't 

618
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,200
trying to be fake. 
But here's the I I think they 

619
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,560
were sincere. 
I don't think they were just 

620
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,000
putting on a show, like, oh, 
everybody, look, they're coming.

621
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,760
Lord Jesus, thank you for like, 
I don't think they were doing 

622
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,640
that. 
I think that they wanted to 

623
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,280
serve Jesus. 
I think they wanted to love God.

624
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,960
Then they got lost in their way.
And here's the problem. 

625
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,560
The problem is the focus is on 
the man and not on God. 

626
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,320
And it and it usually. 
Is yeah, because it's, we're 

627
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,000
talking about God's grace. 
When you receive grace, what 

628
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,840
happens to us? 
What happens to you, Stephen? 

629
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,960
When you receive grace, you are 
given divine life, divine 

630
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,880
supernatural life. 
It's a work that happens. 

631
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,880
It's Zoe, right? 
It's it's that word Zoe, divine,

632
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,840
natural, super supernatural 
life. 

633
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,200
That is God's grace. 
That's what you need. 

634
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,880
When you get that you have, you 
have salvation. 

635
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,560
You can also forfeit it. 
You can also walk away from it. 

636
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,080
You can you. 
There are a lot of things that 

637
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:47,240
you can do to not choose Jesus 
and choose sin because you like 

638
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,880
the sin more. 
Well, when you do that, you're 

639
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,040
putting your soul in danger. 
Well, that's why the warning 

640
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,160
passages and Hebrews are 
warnings, right? 

641
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,400
And for me, it's like, as a 
Calvinist, I did struggle with 

642
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,000
this because it's like, what was
he bluffing? 

643
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,160
Like what? 
Like like y'all. 

644
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,280
Don't want to know what I used 
to. 

645
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,680
Say, yeah, but I'm just saying 
like you look at these warning 

646
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,159
passages like, well, if they're 
elect, this isn't even true 

647
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:11,480
anyway, kind of question is 
that. 

648
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,199
So then you have to say, well, 
it's a hypothetical that 

649
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:14,920
actually could never happen. 
Exactly. 

650
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,639
He's making a point, and that's 
what I used to say. 

651
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,040
I used to teach that it was just
a hypothetical. 

652
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,600
I I think he was sincere. 
I don't think he was joking when

653
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,120
he gave these warnings. 
I don't think he was. 

654
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,560
Either so but but again like so,
you come to the passages. 

655
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,000
You see a lot of overlap in 
terminology. 

656
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,679
Justification is another which 
again, justification is to be 

657
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:34,960
made righteous or counted as 
righteous. 

658
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,600
There is something to be said 
here because this is one of the 

659
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,120
clearest and most important 
divides between Calvin and 

660
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,679
Augustine, because you would 
think they're actually in full 

661
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:46,480
agreement. 
They're actually not because 

662
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,400
both speak of grace, both speak 
of a preceding faith, both speak

663
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,239
in senses some Sacramento 
language, Both speak about 

664
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,000
needing to be justified, but 
they do not mean the same thing.

665
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,160
This is what I was saying 
earlier at the program, folks. 

666
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,800
Sometimes we have the same 
definitions with different 

667
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,800
words, sometimes with the same 
words and different definitions.

668
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,280
This is where they're using the 
same word but a different 

669
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,560
definition. 
For example, Calvin on 

670
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,120
justification says he is said to
be justified in the sight of 

671
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,520
God, who is both reckoned 
righteous in God's judgement and

672
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,640
has been accepted on account of 
his righteousness. 

673
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,080
Now he buys into the Romans 
passage pretty deep, which is 

674
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:30,960
not bad, but he limits 
justification to simply that of 

675
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,720
some sort of legal declaration. 
Yeah. 

676
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,960
Augustine was more 
transformative when he looked at

677
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,840
justification, like we did this 
all the time and you probably 

678
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,440
did the same thing. 
You got justification, 

679
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,840
sanctification, glorification. 
Yeah, Romans 820. 8 the fathers 

680
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,080
that really make a distinction 
between sanctification and. 

681
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,320
Justification. 
They did not. 

682
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,600
They looked at it as one 
holistic aspect of something. 

683
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,080
And this is what I began to 
realize when I was debating 

684
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,880
Trent Horn and and Jimmy Aiken, 
That time is when we start 

685
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,720
actually breaking down that 
system. 

686
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,040
It's like, I don't even know if 
we're disagreeing here. 

687
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,280
We're just calling it something.
You were using different 

688
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,640
semantics, yeah. 
But here's the thing. the IT is 

689
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,680
there a declaration according to
Romans about somebody who's 

690
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,840
believed? 
Are they are they declared and 

691
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,200
and given righteousness? 
Sure. 

692
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,040
Sure. 
Yeah, yeah. 

693
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,720
But it doesn't end there. 
Yeah, like again, here's and 

694
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:26,520
here's another. 
Here's another point for 

695
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,480
Protestantism where the word 
only does not apply. 

696
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,400
Y'all can. 
Y'all can tweet that on. 

697
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,480
Sola fide, Is that where you're 
going with this? 

698
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,800
Right, right. 
Because the fact is, it's not 

699
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,960
the only language that's used 
for justification in the New 

700
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,120
Testament. 
You are 100% right and Romans 

701
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,000
doesn't just do. 
I mean there is an element where

702
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:53,440
faith alone is being exercised 
in faith where it's faith not 

703
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,960
works. 
And not the 2nd Judaism temple 

704
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,320
works that we're talking about. 
Paul was arguing against Judaism

705
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,840
and Judaistic works of the 
Temple. 

706
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,000
Because they were lesser forms 
of the greater fulfillment. 

707
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,560
Of the new Covenant. 
So it's blending. 

708
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,000
And by the way, I never 
understood that, but if you 

709
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,520
actually read Galatians and then
you go back and you read Romans 

710
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:18,880
and you look at it from the 
perspective, and Mt Wright was a

711
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,160
big help with this. 
Yeah, he said. 

712
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,520
Read Ephesians before you read 
Romans, because Ephesians gives 

713
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,160
you the right framework. 
I love Tom Wright for this. 

714
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,160
Gives you the right framework on
how to read Romans because it 

715
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,720
speaks to everything. 
Ephesians is like a condensed 

716
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:36,160
letter of Romans. 
Yeah, it is. 

717
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,600
It actually very much is, 
especially even on the subject 

718
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,240
of election, the subject of 
grace of. 

719
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,240
Faith of Israel and the Church 
of Jews and Gentiles, like 

720
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,320
everything is in that letter of 
Ephesians. 

721
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,800
It's in Romans. 
But this was a part of the 

722
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,760
warning also in Hebrews is that 
to go back to the lesser system,

723
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,800
there is no more. 
Forgiveness of sins. 

724
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,280
There no longer remains A 
sacrifice. 

725
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,800
There's nothing there. 
For you, going backward, you 

726
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,760
can't find anything because it 
was a shadow that has been 

727
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,800
fulfilled. 
To go back to a shadow is to 

728
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,760
abandon the. 
Fulfillment and it was destroyed

729
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,640
when Jesus died on the cross. 
What happened to the veil of the

730
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:08,800
temple? 
It was rent. 

731
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,160
They no longer could actually 
offer sacrifice because the 

732
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,200
temple was no longer constructed
the way God wanted it to be. 

733
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,960
And when the veil was ripped in 
two, you're talking about not a 

734
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,120
piece of curtain. 
Yeah, you got a little skinny 

735
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,720
piece that you sit there and 
just peel back. 

736
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:25,640
You're talking about something 
that would take years, roughly 

737
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,080
about 35 years to repair, which 
is interesting on the timing of 

738
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,440
the letter of the Hebrews, by 
the way. 

739
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,640
Yeah, I think it's predicting 
right before the. 

740
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,560
Destruction exactly right. 
Then you have 70 AD with the 

741
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,600
destruction of the temple man, 
we could get in. 

742
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,280
We we're going raptures. 
The point is, is the idea of 

743
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,720
faith and works. 
The Catholic Church does teach 

744
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,800
that faith works. 
Through love. 

745
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,680
Yeah, clarity. 
And so that Paul said it, if I 

746
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,560
have faith it can remove 
mountains and I lack charity. 

747
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,800
And what does it profit him? 
Nothing. 

748
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,080
Nothing. 
What did Jesus teach? 

749
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,080
What did Jesus teach us? 
In the Gospel? 

750
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,080
A man comes to him and says, 
Lord, what must I do to inherit 

751
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,120
eternal life? 
And Jesus doesn't say, oh, 

752
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,880
believe in your good. 
No, he doesn't even talk about 

753
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,080
himself. 
Didn't even talk about faith. 

754
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,120
No, he says love the Lord your 
God with all your heart, soul, 

755
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,640
mind and strength. 
That is faith, working and love,

756
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,640
and to love your neighbor as 
yourself. 

757
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,840
And then he has the audacity to 
say, well, who's my neighbor 

758
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:26,880
exactly? 
And so Jesus tells him the great

759
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,480
story that we see of the the 
great, the Good Samaritan and, 

760
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,320
and demonstrating what true 
faith looks like. 

761
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,480
It is loving the person. 
In need, loving the one who made

762
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,480
you, and the loving the others 
he's made. 

763
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,280
We're not saying that faith 
isn't involved here. 

764
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,240
We're just they're saying that 
faith is worked. 

765
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,640
Out through. 
Love and even a Calvinist will 

766
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,960
say that faith without works is 
dead, but they have no barometer

767
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,040
for gauging that in the 
practical Christian Sacramento 

768
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,840
life. 
That is the issue that we lacked

769
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,920
in the Calvinistic days that we 
belong to is, Oh yeah, faith has

770
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:02,560
to have. 
Works. 

771
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,240
What does it look? 
Like right, and that's the 

772
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,200
problem here. 
But but really it's about a 

773
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,520
legal standing. 
It's a declaration, all of these

774
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,720
things. 
Augustine not so much, He says 

775
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:18,920
on his commentary of John, to 
justify the ungodly is greater 

776
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,040
than to create heaven and earth.
I want to pause there. 

777
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,800
To justify the ungodly is 
greater than God saying let 

778
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,120
there be. 
Right. 

779
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,000
And there it is. 
Let there be light. 

780
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:38,240
Yeah, yeah. 
That should make us the depth of

781
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:40,080
that. 
That should cause us some 

782
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,720
hesitation, some some gravity to
think about how much God 

783
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:53,400
intended on saving his fallen 
people and how he views us. 

784
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,200
I mean, for example, this, this 
is, this is parallel to the 

785
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:02,920
place of the Gospel, you know, 
did not God clothe the lilies? 

786
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,720
Did he not feed the birds? 
But. 

787
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:06,960
Then. 
But what did Jesus say then? 

788
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,080
About us, About us. 
Yeah, are you not? 

789
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,160
More, more. 
It's not that God hates the 

790
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,360
birds and the lilies, it's that 
He was willing to go to greater 

791
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,480
depths for the Imago day than 
even the creation that didn't 

792
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,480
fall the way the Imago day did. 
That he created and said was 

793
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,160
good. 
And that creation did not 

794
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,360
condemn itself. 
Man brought condemnation. 

795
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,360
Against himself, yeah. 
He's still not that he's 

796
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:35,880
interested in restoring the 
creation. 

797
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,320
He course he is, we believe. 
That God Romans 8. 

798
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,600
Romans 8. 
It groans for its redemption, 

799
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:46,120
yeah, but man, he's going to 
another level to save the Imago 

800
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,920
day and. 
I think the Blessed Mother saw 

801
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,360
that too. 
I think she saw that Steven. 

802
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,400
I think she looked at her son 
and she said what greater thing 

803
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,920
can be than this? 
Greater than the creation of 

804
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,560
heaven and earth. 
Why else would she say when she 

805
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,560
learned the news, my soul 
magnifies the Lord like 

806
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,000
magnifies him? 
So Augustine, later on the 

807
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,000
spirit and the letter says, what
is it to justify the ungodly 

808
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,280
except from the ungodly to make 
righteous? 

809
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,960
So again, this is 
transformative. 

810
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,360
This isn't just a declaration. 
This is a depth that God was 

811
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,920
willing to do something to 
justify the ungodly is he didn't

812
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,920
he didn't simply just say let 
there be and then that was it. 

813
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,320
He actually moved within 
creation. 

814
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,280
He inspected, he looked at 
things, he said let these items 

815
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,400
happen within it. 
It just wasn't the heaven and 

816
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,440
the earth. 
He was detailed, He was 

817
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,680
articulate. 
He went through specifics. 

818
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,320
I mean you look at the. 
It was it was love at work. 

819
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,680
Oh my goodness, man. 
Like it's love at. 

820
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,240
Work. 
It wasn't like, let there just 

821
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:50,560
be a tree. 
Of course we probably imagine 

822
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,760
creation happening this way, but
if you look at the creation of 

823
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,080
the tree, look at the science 
behind the growth of a tree and 

824
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,400
different types of tree. 
He didn't just create a tree, He

825
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,840
created trees that bore 
different fruits. 

826
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,280
The detail that God. 
Went through. 

827
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,840
So he didn't just give a 
declaration, he gave a 

828
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:17,160
declaration with important 
details of definitive importance

829
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,200
that created something that was 
functionally beautiful, that had

830
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:26,200
organic movement, that had long 
lasting lifespan to it. 

831
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,680
God is detailed in his 
justification. 

832
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,840
It's not just a yeah, 'cause 
they, you know, like, and then 

833
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,880
that's it. 
It is something that has been 

834
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,200
declared over us, where God is 
now going to continue to create 

835
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,720
in us something beautiful. 
We have the. 

836
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,680
Spirit is at work in us. 
This is the Spirit was at work 

837
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,000
in creation. 
You are a new creator. 

838
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:48,960
Old things are passed. 
Exactly. 

839
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,120
All things are becoming. 
You and I are in the preaching 

840
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:54,760
right now like. 
We're becoming new. 

841
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,880
We're just, we just keep going, 
telling. 

842
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,480
People Augustine justification 
and his idea justification was 

843
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,480
God actually actually changing 
the person. 

844
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,040
Yes, that Calvin would agree 
that to a level, but he believes

845
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,320
in the healing of the soul, the 
renewing of the will, the 

846
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,520
pouring of God's love into our 
hearts so that we can pour that 

847
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,280
love back. 
The treatment of Romans 5. 

848
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:19,200
It's where he grounds his 
transformative view of 

849
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,400
justification. 
Making the unjust just This is 

850
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:28,520
not merely a change of a status,
it is a change of a condition. 

851
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,800
Yeah, it's a change in the 
person, yes. 

852
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,960
So why does that matter? 
Well, later Protestants debate 

853
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,840
constantly. 
This subject of justification 

854
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,520
must mean one thing legally 
declared righteous. 

855
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,160
Don't argue the facts. 
Augustine does not operate in 

856
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,680
that narrow of a framework. 
When Augustine reads Romans, he 

857
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,800
sees grace both forgiving and 
transforming. 

858
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,480
So let's take the important 
nuance here. 

859
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,040
Can Protestants still appeal to 
Augustine on grace and faith? 

860
00:44:58,800 --> 00:44:59,960
Yeah, yeah. 
Sure. 

861
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,840
Can Catholics find stronger 
continuity with Agustin's view 

862
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,440
of infused righteousness and 
interior renewal? 

863
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,440
A very emphatic yes. 
I would say Hallelujah, yeah, 

864
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,440
you know, add a few extra. 
Adjectives in there, right? 

865
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,360
Yeah. 
But what cannot honestly be 

866
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,680
claimed is that Agustin taught 
fully developed 16th century 

867
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,920
forensic justification in the 
way that that Calvin did. 

868
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,960
There's no way you can convince 
me of that. 

869
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,720
Yeah, very different. 
Views again, notice what 

870
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,960
Augustine is saying is happening
in justification. 

871
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,320
Just want to again for the 
audience so they understand 

872
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,360
where we're coming from. 
The love of God is being poured 

873
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,120
into the heart of a man right of
of man. 

874
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,480
That is not a courtroom 
declaration. 

875
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,840
That's not, that's not 
forensics. 

876
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,560
That is a transformation of the 
human soul, of the soul of a 

877
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,360
man, of the human being at the 
person at the level of their 

878
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,280
loves. 
And This is why Agustin teaches 

879
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:09,000
so much about disordered loves, 
and then how we can have love 

880
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,880
ordered in the right way because
we are restless until we find 

881
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,040
our rest in Him. 
I love that quote. 

882
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,800
I love that quote because it's 
true. 

883
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,160
Yeah. 
That that is the human nature. 

884
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,880
We are discontent. 
We are unstable. 

885
00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:28,160
We don't find any rest. 
Even when we think we find it, 

886
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,720
it's temporary, it wears off, 
and then we're back to 

887
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,040
desperation and. 
That man, that that's 

888
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,760
transformative, man, that is not
what Calvin argued. 

889
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,240
Big difference here. 
I think this is, I think that's 

890
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:42,960
a major break between 
Augustinianism and Calvinism. 

891
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,200
Huge break right there. 
A lot of things can overlap that

892
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,840
one to me. 
They they, they part like the 

893
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,040
Red Sea. 
They kind of do. 

894
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,240
I really do. 
So this is another issue. 

895
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,880
Let's jump into the specifics of
the church. 

896
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,160
The church that Calvin could not
fully follow. 

897
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,080
In fact, he didn't follow at 
all. 

898
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,640
We probably need to end with 
this when they continue the next

899
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:10,120
week on the rest. 
Against the Epistle of 

900
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,000
Manichaeus, called Fundamentals,
we have this quote. 

901
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,640
For my part, this is Augusta. 
And we have a We have a longer 

902
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:17,520
quote later on. 
Yeah. 

903
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,400
For my part, I should not 
believe the Gospel except as 

904
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,680
moved by the authority of the 
Catholic Church. 

905
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,440
By the way, we did an entire 
episode covering this segment. 

906
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,160
If you want to go back, I think 
it's about 3-4 months ago. 

907
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,800
You go back in the archives. 
We, we actually went through the

908
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,240
letter and talked about this 
because we, we, you know, no 

909
00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:41,000
offense, but Gavin Ortlin made 
the comment that basically 

910
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,120
Gustin would have been 
considered more Protestant. 

911
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,120
And, and this is part of the 
play. 

912
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,880
And now this one isn't 
responding to Gavin 

913
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,840
specifically, but this was one 
of the letters we went through 

914
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,520
to show. 
That's ridiculous. 

915
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:58,480
There is no there is no cohesive
observation or expression of 

916
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,960
Agustin that would validate 
Gavin Orland State. 

917
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:03,640
Not even close, especially in 
its context. 

918
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:07,800
He notices the authority of the 
Catholic Church, not merely an 

919
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:13,200
invisible concept. 
This is the authority that is 

920
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,920
not within a single human 
institution. 

921
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,000
This is a God ordained 
institution. 

922
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,640
Now think about what Calvin 
said. 

923
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,200
He said this in his letter to 
Edward the 6th and we read this 

924
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,720
in the last episode. 
For as regards general 

925
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:33,640
reformation, it is not yet so 
well established as it would be 

926
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,840
wise to look as it has been 
achieved. 

927
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,360
That is the Reformation, and in 
fact it can be very difficult to

928
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,000
purge in a day. 
It's such an abyss of the 

929
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,880
superstition. 
Objection, Your Honor. 

930
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:52,320
Courtroom, as there is in the 
papacy, its root is too deep and

931
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,840
has expanded itself too widely 
to get soon to the bottom of it.

932
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,200
Again, go back to the last 
episode, folks. 

933
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,440
We're not going to rehash this, 
so we're going to keep going. 

934
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,920
But we demonstrated that it's 
actually a compliment to the 

935
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,440
Catholic Church, not a 
criticism. 

936
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,800
But notice his disdain. 
This thing is corrupt. 

937
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,960
It is deep. 
It is deeply rooted in 

938
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,640
corruption. 
Abyss of superstition. 

939
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,640
That's what his beliefs are, and
we talked about how actually he 

940
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,720
proved the the longevity and the
sustainability of the church. 

941
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,320
He proved the validity of the 
Church. 

942
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,120
A. 100% but at the end of the of
the day, he didn't mean to do 

943
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:24,800
that. 
But here's the thing, different 

944
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,240
view. 
Agustin saying that church, I 

945
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,560
wouldn't even believe the gospel
if they weren't the ones that 

946
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,680
gave me the opportunity, 
privilege and told me to believe

947
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,200
Calvin's like I ain't believing 
their gospel. 

948
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,240
But superstitious papists, not 
going to happen. 

949
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,080
Deeply corrupted, not going to 
believe that church. 

950
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,360
I'm going to believe an external
voice outside of that church. 

951
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,560
They would not see the church 
the same way. 

952
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,440
No, not at. 
All Augustine on why he remained

953
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,560
a Catholic, why did he stay 
within the Roman provisions and 

954
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,800
the Roman really cooperation 
with the Sea of Rome? 

955
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,480
Well, he makes a lot of reasons 
in his anti Manichaean view and 

956
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,840
his anti donatus view. 
He talks about all of it. 

957
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,880
He appeals to the Apostolic 
succession, the validity of the 

958
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,360
bishops. 
There's actually continuity that

959
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,040
goes back to the apostles 
themselves. 

960
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,960
Reformation loses that 
universality of the church 

961
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,840
cooperating together with the 
sea of Peter and Paul. 

962
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,040
Reformation abandoned that 
antiquity of the church. 

963
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,720
Calvin's saying the antiquity of
the church is evil and 

964
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,880
superstitious and corrupt. 
He's saying the tradition is 

965
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,760
living on. 
Now, I understand there's a lot 

966
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:34,920
of years between the two. 
You could say stuff happening 

967
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,080
between them. 
We actually demonstrated that 

968
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,160
Calvin can't pinpoint when the 
actual church was pure because 

969
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,840
the people that he quotes as 
champions rebuke his assertions 

970
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,640
as to why those doctrines were 
superstitious. 

971
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,560
We demonstrate that again, if 
you missed that, please go back 

972
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:49,760
to the last episode. 
Listen to it. 

973
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:51,960
Common, spread throughout the 
world. 

974
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,640
Same ancestry, same apostles, 
the continuity of bishops 

975
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,440
through that succession in holy 
orders, and unity against 

976
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,880
schismatic groups, which the 
Reformation was. 

977
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:10,440
So no, Agustin would have kicked
out and rebuked and refuted John

978
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,360
Calvin. 
He would have called him a 

979
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,040
schismatic heretic, which I got 
some Flack for on the last 

980
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,240
episode for calling him a 
schismatic heretic. 

981
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:20,280
That's what Augusta would have 
called him. 

982
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,840
Well, give me that Flack, show 
me that smoke, because I'm going

983
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,800
to tell you right now he was a 
schismatic heritage. 

984
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,600
Well, he was if if he would have
been as harsh on the Donatus and

985
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,440
as harsh as he was on Pelagius. 
Yeah, what do you think he would

986
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,720
have done with something someone
like John Calvin Way? 

987
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:38,680
Worse, because the Donatus at 
least believed in bishopric, the

988
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,760
Donatus still believed. 
In Apostolic succession. 

989
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,760
A lot of things they saw. 
The necessity of the Church. 

990
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:45,480
They saw a lot of those things 
assessing. 

991
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,040
They just didn't believe that 
they could fix it. 

992
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,720
They wanted to do their own 
thing to fix it. 

993
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,080
Again, schismatic. 
Both schismatic, but their 

994
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,240
approach was not the same as a 
reformer. 

995
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,200
They did not look at the whole 
church and go evil, get rid of 

996
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:58,280
them. 
They're all bad papists. 

997
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,240
Get them out of here. 
That wasn't the donorsus view. 

998
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,840
Pelagius did not want to be 
kicked out of the church. 

999
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,720
He was not. 
Having the decision, he tried 

1000
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:07,040
vehemently to try to stay in 
the. 

1001
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,440
He wrote to the Pope asking to 
be restored. 

1002
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,880
He pleaded to be restored and 
then the Pope died before there 

1003
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,680
could be a response, and he 
pleaded with the second. 

1004
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,000
Pope, the Pope that came after 
him. 

1005
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,360
And the Pope course buckled down
and continued his his 

1006
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,360
declaration. 
These guys were not content 

1007
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,280
being outside the church. 
Calvin, he's fine with being. 

1008
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:28,840
Arrogant. 
In fact, he thinks it's right. 

1009
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,640
It's terrible. 
So looks like some strong 

1010
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,760
supporting quotes here. 
I'll let you read this one here 

1011
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,920
against the epistle Manichaeus. 
We've also already kind of show 

1012
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,720
this, but read the whole 
context. 

1013
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:40,480
I think this is good. 
Yeah, so the agreement of 

1014
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,960
peoples and nations holds me, 
says John, says Augustine. 

1015
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,160
The authority begun with 
miracles, nourished with hope, 

1016
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,840
increased with love, and 
strengthened with age, holds me 

1017
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,880
in the Catholic Church. 
The succession of priests from 

1018
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,880
the very sea, That's the Latin 
AB EPSA sayde of the Apostle 

1019
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,240
Peter. 
To him, after his resurrection, 

1020
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:03,600
the Lord entrusted the feeding 
of his sheep right up to the 

1021
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,120
present. 
Episcopacy holds me in the 

1022
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,360
Catholic Church. 
Finally, the name Catholic holds

1023
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,680
me in the Catholic Church. 
It was not without reason that 

1024
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,960
this Church alone among so many 
heresies obtained this name, so 

1025
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,960
that though all heretics want to
be called Catholic, no heretic 

1026
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,600
would dare point out his own 
basilica or house to some 

1027
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,400
stranger who asked where the 
Catholic Church was to be found.

1028
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,280
Woof. 
First of all I want to note that

1029
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,480
he said that he called it the 
Church alone. 

1030
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,480
So Soul Ecclesia here. 
The word alone is. 

1031
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,400
Used without reason that this 
Church alone among so many 

1032
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,600
heretics obtained its name. 
So he believed in that. 

1033
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:53,200
He also talks about these 
heretics want to be that you 

1034
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,880
telling me that that's what 
Calvin wanted to be. 

1035
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,320
Not at all. 
Not at all. 

1036
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,520
Not. 
A chance they didn't want that 

1037
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,840
name, they wanted to rid 
themselves of that name. 

1038
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,000
That's why they're willing to 
adopt other names and practices.

1039
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,680
So that quote is devastating for
simplistic Protestant claims 

1040
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,160
that come into Oh yeah, you 
know, Augusta was Protestant. 

1041
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,080
Augusta was a proto Protestant. 
He was a Calvinist. 

1042
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:18,840
Nope, Nope, Nope. 
Because he would have, based on 

1043
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:23,520
that assertion, removed all 
Reformed people. 

1044
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,720
Calvin, Luke, don't matter. 
Don't matter what category 

1045
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:27,760
they're in. 
What country. 

1046
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:29,680
Schism. 
Schism. 

1047
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,360
All of them. 
Which is a word that Paul uses, 

1048
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:33,720
by the way. 
Schism. 

1049
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:39,960
So Calvin's definition of the 
church in the Institute's 41.9. 

1050
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,840
He says whoever we see the word 
of God purely preached and 

1051
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,400
heard. 
Boy, I feel like I've heard this

1052
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,640
in a sermon on a Sunday and the 
sacraments administered. 

1053
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,880
According to Christ's 
institution, there it is, not to

1054
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,520
be doubted, a Church of God. 
Exists. 

1055
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,320
And when you read it on the 
surface, you're like, man, that 

1056
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,080
makes so much more sense. 
So much sense. 

1057
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,200
Every heretic in history can say
they did that. 

1058
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,120
Exactly until you read. 
Historians, Pelagians, 

1059
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:12,960
Donatists, Paulicians, all of 
them could say they did that. 

1060
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,640
Yep. 
And yet, what is? 

1061
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,240
What does Augustine say in the 
sermon to the Caesareans? 

1062
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,120
He says outside the Catholic 
Church, 1 can have everything 

1063
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,960
except salvation. 
One can have honor. 

1064
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:29,240
One can have sacraments. 
One can sing Hallelujah. 

1065
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:35,040
One can respond Amen. 
One can hold the gospel. 1 can 

1066
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,920
have and preach faith in the 
name of the Father and of the 

1067
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:42,120
Son and of the Spirit, but 
nowhere except in the Catholic 

1068
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:48,320
Church can one find salvation. 
My goodness. 

1069
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,880
That goes against everything 
that Calvin just said in the 

1070
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,720
Institutes. 
Yeah, everything. 

1071
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,520
And then he goes on. 
Read the other one. 

1072
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,000
Read the other quote here on the
sermon of the Catechumens on the

1073
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,680
Creed. 
Yeah, so the sermon to the 

1074
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,160
Catechumens on the Creed, 
Augustine writes this same as 

1075
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,160
the Holy Church, the one Church,
the true Church, the Catholic 

1076
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,760
Church, fighting against all 
heresies. 

1077
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,720
Fight it can be fought down, it 
cannot. 

1078
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,560
As for heresies, they went all 
out of it, like as unprofitable 

1079
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,880
branches pruned from the vine. 
But itself. 

1080
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,480
The Church abides in its root, 
in its vine, in its charity. 

1081
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,280
The gates of hell shall not 
prevail against it. 

1082
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,240
Wow. 
I love Gustin. 

1083
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,600
It's a, by the way, I consider 
myself an Augustinian. 

1084
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,080
I, I really do. 
I, I, you know, for years to 

1085
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,120
call myself a Calvinist, but I 
was always wanting and needing 

1086
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,520
was Augustinianism. 
And I think there is a major 

1087
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:43,080
distinction because this is the 
kind of thinking he talks about 

1088
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,320
this. 
As for heresies, they all want 

1089
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,760
out of it like they want out 
like an unprofitable branch 

1090
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,040
prune from the vine, but itself,
it abides in a root. 

1091
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:56,840
It's vine and then it's charity.
He recognizes that even heretics

1092
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:01,600
want they want to be. 
They want to be included. 

1093
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,200
And by the way, Luther didn't 
want to be outside of the 

1094
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,480
church. 
Calvin at. 

1095
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,720
Least not in the beginning. 
Calvin did like Luther was not 

1096
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,840
like, yeah, kick me on. 
I'm fine with that. 

1097
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,560
He was not fine with that. 
He eventually got over it. 

1098
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,160
But I mean, at the same time, he
wasn't looking to leave. 

1099
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,400
He wanted to fix problems. 
And again, some things needed 

1100
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,440
fixing as we talked about. 
But here's here's here's the 

1101
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:27,800
point. 
Even heretics in the past were 

1102
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:34,960
able to produce some sort of 
similarity or terminology or 

1103
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,920
practice these very similar 
things, but they operated 

1104
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:44,320
outside of the unity and the 
community with the church. 

1105
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,280
Church. 
And not only it's not like 

1106
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,040
Calvin was fighting like the 
patriarch of Constantinople. 

1107
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:55,120
He was fighting the very head of
the churches. 

1108
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,360
He was fighting the very sea of 
Peter itself. 

1109
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,640
Which was the center of unity 
for the church. 

1110
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:01,480
It's. 
Insane. 

1111
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,320
It's insane that the thing that 
these two men were on the same 

1112
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,720
wavelength or something is 
incredible that they would 

1113
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,200
differ on other things too, like
the prayers for the dead you 

1114
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,880
mentioned this last week and 
last week's episode about 

1115
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,320
Agustin on his mother Monica. 
After the death of his mother, 

1116
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,960
Agustin asked Christian to pray 
for her said remember thy 

1117
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,760
handmade Monica at thy altar and
that's his confessions. 

1118
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,560
So he's asking people at the 
altar of offering the Mass to 

1119
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,560
pray for his mother. 
He asked remembrance in 

1120
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,920
Eucharistic prayer for God does 
not allow his name to be trifled

1121
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,720
with. 
Now remember this is this is 

1122
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,560
Calvin. 
Remember what he said. 

1123
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,560
Augustine's like pray for my mom
at the Mass. 

1124
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,080
She's dead. 
Pray for my mom. 

1125
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,320
Right here's Calvin Edward for 
God does not allow his name to 

1126
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,920
be trifled with, mixing up silly
frivolities with his holy and 

1127
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,000
sacred ordinances. 
Then there are manifest abuses 

1128
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,680
which cannot be endured, such as
prayer for the souls of the 

1129
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,800
departed, of putting forward to 
God the intercession of Saints 

1130
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,800
and prayers, and also joining 
them in God an invocation. 

1131
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,040
He's saying the. 
Opposite. 

1132
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:10,880
The very opposite. 
Of God I guess it's like pray 

1133
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,200
for my mom at every. 
Mass and he he doesn't just say 

1134
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,520
pray for her or or ask for her 
to be remembered at the altar. 

1135
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:18,560
And by the way, we still do that
in the Catholic Church today, 

1136
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:23,880
that the Mass is given often 
intentionally for the prayers 

1137
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,560
of, of of a family member who 
has, who has departed. 

1138
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,760
But Augustine also prays 
explicitly for her sins to be 

1139
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,120
forgiven after her death. 
You realize that when he asks 

1140
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,320
for that, he addresses God 
directly on Monica's behalf, 

1141
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,160
asking for mercy. 
That is not ambiguity. 

1142
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,520
That's not ambiguous. 
It's called purgatory. 

1143
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,240
It's very clear, like what he's 
asking for. 

1144
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,800
And, and and this is what this 
is the practice that Calvin 

1145
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,280
would call a manifest abuse. 
This is something he would call 

1146
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:55,360
a frivolity. 
Yeah. 

1147
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,000
Silliness. 
Yeah. 

1148
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:58,720
And yet Agustin is 
superstitious. 

1149
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,520
Yeah, superstitious. 
Yeah, but but here's the thing, 

1150
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,200
Augusta, let's let's be careful 
here. 

1151
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,360
Augusta does not present like 
some of the medieval details. 

1152
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:07,920
No, he, he's not, He's not. 
He. 

1153
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:09,080
He. 
Is, but he does believe. 

1154
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,160
In purgation he does. 
He believes in purgation. 

1155
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,400
He's asking for her sins to be 
forgiven, for God to remember 

1156
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,480
her and her death. 
Yeah, obviously it didn't get 

1157
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,040
into like Dante or something 
like that. 

1158
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,520
I mean, so, so we got to be 
careful there. 

1159
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:24,080
But but Calvin, like most 
reformers, were willing to throw

1160
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:25,960
the baby out with the bathwater 
literally. 

1161
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,840
I mean, you know, they were 
really willing to say all of 

1162
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,680
it's superstitious, even if 
there were teachings of it that 

1163
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,000
were maybe innovative or 
thoughts that were just subject 

1164
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,960
to one author. 
The church has has obviously 

1165
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,280
made more clarification on the 
subject of purgatory. 

1166
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:44,720
That's right. 
And honestly, they haven't even 

1167
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,600
defined what purgatory looks 
like. 

1168
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,400
Then there's purgation, correct.
And it's only for the friends of

1169
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,240
God and those who die in his 
friendship. 

1170
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:56,440
And so like, at the end of the 
day, Calvin wouldn't even accept

1171
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,880
that Calvin wouldn't accept 
Benedict the 16th's view of 

1172
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:03,840
purgatory or, or or CS Lewis's. 
He was like, he wouldn't even 

1173
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:05,640
accept those. 
He he would accept none of it. 

1174
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:07,600
So let's so let's be careful 
here. 

1175
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:11,800
But Agustin speaks to this in a 
longer quote, and I'll read it 

1176
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,320
for us, he says. 
And it is not impossible that 

1177
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,760
something of the same kind may 
take place even after this life.

1178
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,360
It is a matter that may be 
inquired into and either 

1179
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,480
ascertained or left doubtful 
whether some believers shall 

1180
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,480
pass through a kind of 
purgatorial. 

1181
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,800
Fire. 
And in proportion as they have 

1182
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,960
loved with more or less 
devotion, the goods that perish 

1183
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,200
be less or more quickly 
delivered from it. 

1184
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,640
This cannot, however, be the 
case of any of those of whom it 

1185
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,320
is said that they shall not 
inherit the Kingdom of God, 

1186
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,840
unless, after suitable 
repentance, their sins be 

1187
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,360
forgiven them. 
When I say suitable, I mean that

1188
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,880
they are not to be unfruitful 
and almsgiving. 

1189
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,520
For Holy Scripture lays so much 
stress on this virtue which it 

1190
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,120
does, that our Lord tells us 
beforehand that He will ascribe 

1191
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,800
no merit to those on His right 
hand, but they have a bound in 

1192
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:02,640
it. 
No defect to those on His left 

1193
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,120
hand, but they're wanton when He
shall say to the former, Come, 

1194
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,680
ye blessed of my father inherit 
the Kingdom, and the latter 

1195
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,640
depart from me, ye cursed and 
everlasting fire. 

1196
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,480
So that is Agustin. 
That's not the council trend. 

1197
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,360
That's not the Middle Ages. 
That's Agustin. 

1198
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,160
He did believe that there was a 
potentiality that people who are

1199
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:28,600
in God's favor must still enter 
some form of purgation. 

1200
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,640
Yeah. 
And that those that are damned 

1201
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,080
to eternal fire, eternal fire do
not go through. 

1202
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,920
Purgation, which again that 
those who are in friendship of 

1203
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,720
God enter into that state of 
purgation. 

1204
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,280
Those who are not in Christ do 
not. 

1205
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:43,480
They enter into damnation. 
That's all. 

1206
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,080
That's what Agustin's saying. 
But notice, too, if you go back 

1207
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:51,560
to that quote, he's making the 
point that he says whether some 

1208
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,320
believers shall pass through a 
kind of purgatorial fire and in 

1209
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:58,480
proportion as they have loved 
with more or less devotion the 

1210
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,240
goods that perish, be less or 
more quickly delivered from it. 

1211
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,720
That is the catechism of the. 
Church, that's a good thing, not

1212
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:06,800
a bad thing. 
That's right, it's. 

1213
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:11,160
Based on what you did in your 
life, how you loved, how you had

1214
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:15,800
disordered loves, how you had 
correctly ordered loves, that's 

1215
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,120
how you will be cleansed in the 
purgatorial fire. 

1216
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,760
And again, he doesn't give 
details like Oh well that looks 

1217
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:22,280
like you'll be in there for X 
amount. 

1218
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,120
Of yeah, he's not. 
He's not giving those kinds. 

1219
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,520
Of and nor does the church by 
the way, dude is the church. 

1220
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,040
That's not medieval, that's not 
the Council of Trent, that's 

1221
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,920
Agustin. 
And by the way, they all quote 

1222
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:34,480
from Augustine. 
When they get into some. 

1223
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,280
Now let's take our friend 
Calvin. 

1224
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:38,680
Does he agree with Augustine 
here? 

1225
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:42,240
Well, in his Institutes of 
Christian Religion he says by 

1226
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:47,520
purgatory they have constructed 
a deadly device of Satan which 

1227
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:52,040
nullifies the cross of Christ, 
brings utter contempt upon God's

1228
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,600
mercy, and overturns our faith. 
Later he says, for when 

1229
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:58,320
satisfaction has been once for 
all completed by the death of 

1230
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,560
Christ, there remains no longer 
any place for purgatory. 

1231
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,160
Boy, he doesn't sound like a 
gust in here. 

1232
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:10,080
He also continues, We must hold 
firmly to this that purgatory is

1233
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:16,360
a pernicious fiction of Satan. 
Anything he disagrees with the 

1234
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,600
superstitious, fictitious, 
fictitious or. 

1235
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:20,640
Whatever Satan's work. 
It's all the devil. 

1236
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,720
It's, it's like, it's like a 
waterboy. 

1237
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,560
Waterboy. 
Yeah, that foosball's not. 

1238
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:30,160
Devil, My Mama, my Mama always 
said it's of the devil. 

1239
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,040
Football's of the devil. 
That's John Calvin. 

1240
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,120
It's like the waterboy of the 
16th century. 

1241
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:38,120
It's. 
Of the devil. 

1242
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,840
It's of the devil, partners of 
the devil. 

1243
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,640
But here's the thing, like 
everything's about the devil for

1244
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:46,080
this guy. 
I mean like. 

1245
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:52,040
Boy, we're on the road tonight. 
Forgive us, for we know not what

1246
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:55,680
we are doing. 
But listen folks, stay with us 

1247
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:59,680
here. 
That's not Agustin's theology to

1248
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:03,680
to imply that that Augustine was
some sort of Calvinist because 

1249
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,440
they say a few things that sound
alike or even at times do 

1250
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,280
overlap, but they are so 
different on the essentials. 

1251
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,680
The essentials are different. 
Justification is different. 

1252
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,840
The ecclesiology is different. 
The understanding of purgatory 

1253
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:19,480
and purgation. 
The sacraments. 

1254
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,040
All of this is different, like 
even with the Eucharist, 

1255
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,680
Augustine. 
Augustine says this in Sermon 

1256
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,800
227. 
What you see on the altar having

1257
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,720
being sanctified by the Word of 
God is the body of Christ. 

1258
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,440
That chalice, or rather what the
chalice contains, having being 

1259
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,480
sanctified by the Word of God, 
is the blood of Christ. 

1260
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,640
He also says no one later in 
expositions of the Psalms, no 

1261
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,200
one eats that flesh unless he 
has been first adored. 

1262
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:52,120
That's Calvin believed kind of 
in a more of a pneumatic 

1263
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:54,400
approach. 
He says the sacred mysteries of 

1264
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:55,840
the supper consists of two 
things. 

1265
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,040
A corporal signs which sets 
before us Christ visibly, the 

1266
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,840
spiritual truth which is 
inwardly exhibited in US. 

1267
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:05,640
He also says we confess, 
therefore in the mystery of the 

1268
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,840
supper, but the symbols of bread
and wine, Christ is truly 

1269
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,880
exhibited to us. 
It's more of a spiritual 

1270
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,080
presence. 
It's a it's a pneumatic 

1271
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,400
approach. 
Yeah, it's like, yeah, that's 

1272
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,600
the best way to say it. 
And and and that it's almost 

1273
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,200
like it's because of the Holy 
Spirit and, and and look, the 

1274
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,520
church doesn't disagree with. 
That I mean, yeah, but they 

1275
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:27,400
don't limit it. 
There they don't limit it to 

1276
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:28,480
that. 
Like it just stays in that 

1277
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,040
state. 
He affirms real participation in

1278
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,120
Christ through the Holy Spirit. 
When you look at Augustine, 

1279
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,680
that's what do you believe He 
affirms participation, so does 

1280
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:38,800
Calvin. 
They don't disagree here on that

1281
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:42,160
point, as you said. 
But Calvin would not accept like

1282
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,280
transubstantiation, right? 
Of course, he just absolutely 

1283
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:47,800
would not accept that, but he 
has no problem accepting the 

1284
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:51,440
idea of Christ is present. 
And that's why that's why I 

1285
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,200
don't like the term. 
Would you believe in real 

1286
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:55,040
presence? 
Well, you can get an Anglican, a

1287
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:58,240
Lutheran, a a Calvinist. 
And they'll say, yeah, they all 

1288
01:06:58,240 --> 01:06:59,640
believe. 
I've heard Gavin Ortland say 

1289
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,240
that he believes in real 
presence pneumatic, but it's a 

1290
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,840
pneumatic. 
Pneumatic expression and that's 

1291
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,640
he is more in line with Calvin, 
but we're not saying the same 

1292
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:09,240
thing. 
We're not. 

1293
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:11,880
We're saying that we are taking 
with body, soul and divinity. 

1294
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,480
Yeah, yeah, Body, blood, soul 
and divinity of Christ is 

1295
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:16,480
present in the. 
It's not it's not the same. 

1296
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:19,000
So Calvin rejects merely 
symbolic meals. 

1297
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,440
So he didn't accept like Zwingli
truly didn't agree that, but he 

1298
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,040
does firm this participation and
something spiritual is 

1299
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:27,480
happening. 
But he but he also rejects, like

1300
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:32,440
you said, the elements as being 
the literal body and blood, the 

1301
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,120
transformative into the body and
blood. 

1302
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:37,600
Which is the same it's it's it's
Justin Martyr said the same 

1303
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,520
thing, that this bread and wine 
is transformed into the body and

1304
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,240
blood of Jesus Christ Our. 
It's right there in the early 

1305
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:47,600
pages of our history. 
So how did Calvin use Agustin? 

1306
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:51,600
Well, he usually didn't like 
make things up out of thin air. 

1307
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,040
He actually quoted him. 
He often quoted him accurately 

1308
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:59,400
at times or partially accurate, 
but he also was selective. 

1309
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:03,200
He loves Augustine on the 
subject of grace. 

1310
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,040
He minimizes Augustine on church
authority. 

1311
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,320
Almost never speaks. 
He reads Augustine's 

1312
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:13,400
justification language through 
his categories, not really 

1313
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,920
Augustine's. 
He does not foreground Augustine

1314
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:18,920
on prayer for the dead. 
He rejects Augustine's post 

1315
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:20,880
mortem purification framework 
completely. 

1316
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:23,760
Doesn't even delve into. 
It and by the way, folks, if you

1317
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,319
have a copy of the City of God, 
Augustine also talks about the 

1318
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:27,920
purgatory. 
Absolutely. 

1319
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,960
Calvin also narrows Augustine 
Sacramento universe badly. 

1320
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:37,560
This is the real debate. 
So no, John Calvin did not 

1321
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:40,120
recover Augustine fully. 
He didn't. 

1322
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:44,479
He recognized Augustine, useful 
for his Reformation, but he 

1323
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,040
selectively did it. 
Like you're going to a salad bar

1324
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:52,040
or something. 
Yeah, but the full Augustine 

1325
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:55,720
approach is far more Catholic. 
Sacramento. 

1326
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,760
He's historical. 
He's the doctor of the church. 

1327
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,760
He's a St. 
And once you read Augustine for 

1328
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:05,319
yourself, you start there, not 
at Calvin, but there the slogans

1329
01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:07,680
start collapsing. 
The language that you think 

1330
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,520
overlaps is actually very 
different. 

1331
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:11,080
And the framework starts 
collapsing. 

1332
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:17,279
Again, there there's a problem 
here for us when we read this in

1333
01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:22,319
an anachronistic lens, it it 
really screws up what you 

1334
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:24,279
conclude. 
So I go back to something I 

1335
01:09:24,279 --> 01:09:26,439
asked at the beginning of this 
and I, and I stand on this 

1336
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:30,640
question here because when we're
talking about this, the question

1337
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,720
isn't whether Agustin was a 
Calvinist. 

1338
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:37,920
The question is, was John Calvin
a good Augustinian? 

1339
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,080
And the answer is. 
No, he. 

1340
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,319
Was not, he was not a good 
August, didn't you? 

1341
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:46,640
So folks, when we talk about 
this, we've answered and settled

1342
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,359
the matter, we believe just on 
basics. 

1343
01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:51,760
And we could have spent, Oh my 
goodness, Pat, we could have 

1344
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:53,600
spent hours breaking down more 
of this. 

1345
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,360
But these are fundamental 
differences on the surface. 

1346
01:09:57,360 --> 01:09:59,640
It can be approached much less 
if you dig deeper into the 

1347
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:01,280
theology. 
They are not the same. 

1348
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,320
Augustine was Catholic. 
He'd be Catholic today. 

1349
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,040
Calvin was not Catholic. 
He would not be Catholic today. 

1350
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:11,360
They would not end up in the 
same church. 

1351
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:12,840
They would not end up in the 
same church. 

1352
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:17,320
And it and that's sad. 
That's really sad because you 

1353
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,360
and I, we, we long for people to
come to the fullness of the 

1354
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:23,160
church, right? 
Because that's that's where life

1355
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:24,960
is found. 
And that's what Agustin 

1356
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:25,560
believed. 
Yeah. 

1357
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:27,800
Calvin didn't believe that. 
He believed there was death in 

1358
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,120
that church. 
Yeah. 2 completely different. 

1359
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,080
Folks, we're so glad you joined 
us if this is your first time 

1360
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,400
listening and thank you. 
Thank you for joining us. 

1361
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:41,720
Make sure you hit the like and 
subscribe on the YouTube side. 

1362
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:45,160
If you are listening on the 
audio and podcast, hit that 

1363
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:47,560
follow. 
Leave us a five star, leave us a

1364
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,440
comment. 
We'd love to hear from you. 

1365
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:52,840
On the podcast side, it is 
growing really well on both 

1366
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:54,320
ends, but especially the podcast
side. 

1367
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:57,000
Lately, Pat has been blowing up 
on Spotify and Apple. 

1368
01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:58,920
Thank you for those that have 
been listening in. 

1369
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:01,080
If you'd like, I'd like to hit a
link in the description. 

1370
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:03,480
On the audio side there is a 
title page. 

1371
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:07,800
You can be a donor one time or 
multiple times or monthly 

1372
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:09,960
bimonthly. 
You can set up any way you want.

1373
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:13,440
You will be a part of an e-mail 
list that you get notifications 

1374
01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:15,480
and updates. 
That'll also allow you to get a 

1375
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:18,720
link to our discord page for our
patreons and those that are 

1376
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,040
working with us and in the 
membership group. 

1377
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,720
You can be a part of that. 
You'll get the link to that if 

1378
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:25,720
you're on YouTube. 
All you're going to do is hit 

1379
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:27,280
join. 
You're going to be a member. 

1380
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:28,720
There's two classes of 
memberships. 

1381
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:30,640
Join either one. 
You'll also be a part of the 

1382
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,080
group there in the discord. 
You also have other benefits as 

1383
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,320
well. 
Next Saturday, we have the Q&A 

1384
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:37,640
with. 
Them couple weeks, I think the 

1385
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,240
first week in May 1st Saturday 
May I think we have AQ and a 

1386
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,600
live stream yeah I'm pretty sure
so that's coming up very soon. 

1387
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,240
That allows you to ask whatever 
you want give us ideas about 

1388
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:48,880
upcoming episodes. 
We'd love to see you love to 

1389
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:52,040
interact with you if you'd like 
to join or give in any way be a 

1390
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,360
part of the discord. 
You could be a part of that. 

1391
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:58,120
Would love to have you. 
All right folks, that is all 

1392
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:02,320
that we have time for today. 
As always, grace and peace to 

1393
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:03,200
you. 
God bless.