Just because it's comedogenic does not necessarily mean it's
going to lead to acne. Today we're going to talk a
little bit about some of the differences between
comedogenicity and what was the other one?
I don't even know yet. Comedogenic versus acnogenic,
yeah. We're going to cover that.
Sadie's going to tell me what that even means.
I am going to do that today. We're just going to discuss a
little bit more about our opinions on this is Formulation
Chemist and why we, although we might be biased, think formulas
are pretty important. So let's start off with the term
non comedogenic because a lot of companies are using this term
and. Dare we say it, how are they
using it, Sadie? I say they're in a little loosey
goosey. Keep your geese.
In line. Seriously.
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another.
Week, guys, it's been so long since we last chatted.
It has. Been and I'm so excited to dive
right back into these pores. Me too, but before we get
started, I'm Sadie. And I'm Natalie.
And we're cosmetic chemist, and we're here to give science a hot
new makeover. On this podcast called Beauty by
the Beaker. Which while we have you, please
like subscribe, share with a friend.
Yeah. Comments.
As you may have heard, we're running out of space to record
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We have to be done. There are going to be people out
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Do a countdown on your Instagram well.
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So uh oh guys, send your support quick.
We need a new hard drive. Well, I am so excited to be back
for another week. Me too.
Excited to hear more about our non comedogenic stuff.
Yes. So last week we talked about
where the term non comedogenic came from.
We went over a little study that was kind of crazy and discussed
sort of our thoughts on the whole non comedogenic thing.
If you haven't listened to Part 1, go listen to that because
this part might not make that much sense.
But if you've already listened, we're here in Part 2.
The way I said that. Crazy disjointed.
If you haven't listened to Part 1, you might want to listen to
that so that you know what we're talking about.
Yeah, where the whole idea of comedogenicity even comes from.
We covered all of that last week, so if you haven't yet, go
check that episode out. But today we're going to
continue that discussion. We're going to talk a little bit
about some of the differences between comedogenicity and what
was the other one I don't even know yet, Achnogenicity.
Oh, yeah, yes, yes. Yep.
Comedogenic versus akinogenic. Yeah, we're going to cover that.
Sadie's going to tell me what that even means.
I am going to do that today. And we're just going to discuss
a little bit more about our opinions on this is Formulation
Chemist and why we, although we might be biased, think formulas
are pretty important. Well said.
Thank you who didn't go listen to last week's episode.
Basically non comedogenic is just the idea of something that
does not clog your pores and lead to acne.
A lot of companies make claims about how their products are non
comedogenic and how they don't use any non comedogenic
ingredients. They don't use any comedogenic
ingredients. Thank you.
They're, like all of our formulas, are comedogenic.
All of them. We use one single ingredient
that's not going to clog your pores.
These things are going to suck right in there you.
Are going to have acne up the wazoo.
Consider your pores plugged literally.
Good luck getting that. Out.
So let's start off with the regulations behind the term non
comedogenic because a lot of companies are using this term
and. Dare we say it, how are they
using it? Titty, I say.
They're vanilla, loosey, goosey. I need a shirt.
I need a merch. Shirt Lucy Goosey.
Yeah, maybe. It's your yard, Goose.
And we named her. Lucy so good.
That is Lucy Goose. Oh.
My God, she's. Her newbie experience.
We'll insert a picture of Lucy Goosey.
Yeah, so good. We should bring her in.
We should. We'll put her right here.
Yeah. She doesn't belong in the lawn.
She belongs. In the salon.
Yeah, our salon. Goose.
Lucy Goose. All right.
Oh. My God.
OK, Lucy's. Coming for the next.
Episode. Yeah, Consider it done, yes.
Seriously, that was incredible. You guys just got to witness her
idea making process. Yeah, this is.
How the magic happens? It does this is.
BXP behind the scenes. BX behind the scenes BXBTS OK,
Oh my God, now it's time to talk about regulatory.
I'm getting crazy. So in the United States, the
FDA, which is the regulatory body over cosmetics, that's the
Food and Drug Administration and the FTC don't require any pre
market sign up for cosmetics. So if you just have a cosmetic
product, you don't have to go through the FDA in order to put
it on the shelves, unless it's a drug an or an OTC, in which case
they'll set different requirements.
That's all we're talking about. The FDA, however, does require
that all labels must be truthful and not misleading.
And anything that crosses into disease treatment turns the
product into a drug. That would be something that
uses the words like cures that would have to be regulated as a
drug. So we have talked about drugs
and cosmetics ad nauseam on this podcast.
So I it doesn't even matter but. If you want to hear more about
the old drug versus cosmetic conversation, go listen to some
of our other episodes. We'll link 1 specifically right
here. Yeah, that we talked in depth
about it, but it's a conversation.
It comes up a lot because it's it's common.
It's common. It's ground that must be tread
lightly in cosmetics, yes? So in December 2022, there was
an act that passed. It was called Mokra, and it
widened the FDA's access to safety files, which basically
just says that like if a company is making claims at any time,
the FDA could go to them and say you need to provide US evidence
of these claims, and a company has to have evidence to back up
everything that they're saying. Yeah, which is kind of crazy
that that just was passed because like, yeah, we already
know that like the FDA doesn't require pre market approval for
these things. I am surprised that it's just
recently that they essentially require post market approval,
honestly. Yeah.
They're like, actually, you do have to have evidence, and we
can ask for that at any time. Yeah.
You couldn't do that before. Guess not.
That's crazy. I guess not, but I mean great.
I'm glad that that's now written in stone.
Same. Yeah, So it doesn't cross over
into requiring non comedogenic testing, but brands are required
to keep records that they feel substantiate safety.
But Mochra doesn't mention anything about Comodone counts
or rabbit ear asses, right? So in the EU, the EU requires
adequate and verifiable evidence for every performance claim.
The law doesn't define the study size, site or cut off that makes
a product non comedogenic. But authorities can ask for
whatever like safety data you have and the companies can get
in really big legal trouble if they don't actually have testing
done that's required. So.
That's fair, yeah. Which I think is great.
Like it's a brand. If they're making claims about
something, they should be able to say where they got that
information from, yeah, instead of just being all loosey goosey
about it. Yeah.
So keep your geese. In line.
Seriously. Basically there aren't any
actual legal rules or definitions for non comedogenic
testing. So this means that companies
often times will just formulate to the standards of online acne
checking software and then use the marketing term non
comedogenic because there isn't any sort of legal or regulatory
definition for it. Right.
And although we say like this is great that these companies are
being held accountable, the accountability is sometimes not
as strong as we would like it to be.
Yeah, and also the FDA is probably not going to go after
companies that are using the term non comedogenic on their
packaging like they have bigger fish to fry.
So yeah, in theory they could come after companies for making
claims, but. But people are injecting
themselves with salmon sperm, literally.
So and peptides now like, yeah, they're are bigger issues.
The FDA can only do so much. They're probably not going after
small companies that are saying their products are non
commutagenic and being like, but do you have the data for that?
Yeah, it's just not happening, right.
But the reason that this is frustrating is because a lot of
consumers will look for the term non commutagenic on product
labels and putting non commutagenic is pretty low risk
high reward for companies. Right, it's a.
Great marketing tool that probably isn't going to get them
right. It's like the sulfate free,
paraben free. Exactly, like they can just kind
of say it and it's easy. However, I will say the FDA does
crack down on claims occasionally.
Yeah, this is sort of a tangent, but in 2023, they crack down on
a 2 times faster healing claim on hydrocolloid bandages from
Johnson and Johnson. Nothing has happened yet in that
case, but they do investigate these claims from time to time,
so. They did raise some alarms.
They did. So your brand, it is definitely
in your best interest to formulate correctly, right?
You know. Yeah, that is it.
It seems the theme that we see with a lot of brands, efficacy
with their products and marketing.
There's this delicate balance of formulating good products,
making money, marketing in a way that makes you stand out,
avoiding the FDA. Exactly.
The Four Horsemen product development.
Of the cosmetic apocalypse, exactly.
Non communogenic is kind of just another example of why these
buzzwords work so well on consumers because they're a
shortcut to safety in a world where most people are pretty
hyper vigilant about the ingredients that they're using.
I think we're in a time where people are really looking at and
dissecting product labels and companies know this and they
exploit this. So we've talked about the idea
of clean beauty, and these are examples of marketing terms that
don't need to be tested in a lab.
So any company can really put it on their label and then boom,
they have a bar that the marketing team is really easy to
clear. Well, yeah, I.
Mean if something doesn't exist, it's pretty.
If there's a standard that is not defined, it's much easier to
say that you've hit that standard, yeah.
Exactly. So yeah, my product's clean.
Yeah, that doesn't mean anything to me, but it's yeah, clean.
It's not commanding. It doesn't have. 100% petrol
atom so it doesn't clog your pores.
It's not. Not not comedogenic, right?
Exactly. Well, I'm going to formulate
products that are 100% comedogenic.
So you can't relate to these companies and that's.
You're right, as long as you can make people afraid that their
pores are. You need to convince people that
their pores need to be clogged. Yeah, fear unclogged pores.
They're scary. It's scary to what's coming out.
Of those pores. You don't even want to know the
things I've seen. So when products are tested for
communogenicity, there's quite a range of testing and a well done
lab study. They would apply the product to
30 to 50 people and then use a randomized double-blind
protocol. But. 30 to 50s, I mean, it's
still pretty low. It is still.
Pretty well, but apparently in another study I found 10
subjects is considered large when it comes to evaluating
communogenicity in skin care Well.
Yeah. So I mean the bar.
Is low the bar? Is low for all cosmetic studies
yes, 30 to 50 is the population of China for cosmetic studies
you know like that is that's the.
Goal. Yeah, that's.
The maximum number you could possibly get yeah is like 1
college classroom full. Which is crazy.
Yeah, usually I think I see 30. For some reason I feel like I
see 32. Yeah, very often.
But like I. Know Netflix did one show that
was just 100 people, you know testing things on 100 people so
like Netflix can get up. I think it was called.
It was called like. I don't remember what it was
called, but I think. Brand just don't want to put
money in, no. Because they have to.
Pay all of the volunteers exactly and.
Most people aren't actually looking into what happened.
As long as you can say, yeah, we did a test and people saw
results, People aren't going to be looking into how many people
did you test. So it's not advantageous for a
brand to spend money on doing that when we're the only people
that care. Literally, I was just.
Going to say no. Literally, people are probably.
Fast forwarding through the sexual of the episode, like I
actually could not care less if it's two people or 200 if it's.
Two or three? Two.
Or three. It doesn't matter to me.
Anyway, yeah, 30 to 50 is arguably better than two to
three, so we'll give them that. And for cosmetics, it is
unfortunately a great number. Yeah, that gives.
Us really, really good data apparently usually in a well
done study they would apply it to the face or upper back where
the skin's more likely to break out and then it would ideally
last three to four weeks and then also rely on applying it
how you would apply it in real life.
So there are some studies that will like, apply it to the skin
for 48 hours underneath the bandage.
It's like, yeah, well. Like a patch test?
Yeah, like. That's not what I'm doing, no.
I. Don't no SO.
I don't know if that's what you're doing.
No, no, I did put Hairspray on my face today, but oh.
Well Hairspray was found to be non comedogenic.
I know. I actually I took notice that
last week. So anyway, I kind of decided
that I'm sort of bored talking about studies.
So then everyone else probably is too.
Let's move on, yeah? I agree.
OK, so basically if you care about, if you are someone who
like really wants to dive into the studies and you care about
it, some red flags to look for is not using a control, using
less than 20 volunteers for the study lasting less than two
weeks or only using one person. Like that's not a very good
sample size. And then also another last thing
that's important to know is that sometimes companies don't even
do their own studies. They'll only use the rabbit ear
results or those online acne checkers.
So the company doesn't have any studies to back up the non
comedogenic claim on their product.
The claim is purely marketing. Yeah.
And using an acne checker as your proof that something's non
comedogenic is enough. Yeah, as far as that particular
claim goes, the FDA is fine with that being like your evidence.
So. So.
Listen to last week's episode and decide if that is enough for
you. If you if.
Community is something that is important to you because I think
if you're acne prone I definitely think there is
validity. I guess to looking for products
that are non community genic because there are certain
products that are more likely to break people that are acne prone
out than others for sure. And again, that's way more to do
with the formula and like breathability of formula and how
that formula reacts with your microbiome, which once again, 50
years ago when this rabbit ear study was done, the microbiome
was not a topic of conversation. No, they don't care.
And that's if it even. Existed 50 years ago.
We had not developed bacteria on our skin plate.
Evolved since, yeah. So if non comedogenicity is
something that's important to you, you need to look for actual
studies, not just the claim on the packaging saying it's non
comedogenic because that doesn't mean anything.
No, you can throw that on just about anything.
Another thing that you might see on product labels is the term
non acnegenic. So what is the difference
between non comedogenic and non acnegenic?
You might be asking yourself I'm.
Definitely asking. I already asked.
Yes, you. Did you were ahead of the curve?
So there is a difference between products that are non
comedogenic and non acnegenic. Non comedogenic refers to a
product that's been formulated or tested so it won't clog pores
or form blackheads and whiteheads.
And non comedogenic studies, if they're well, they count new
comedones after three to four weeks.
Non acnegenic means that the product won't cause comedones or
the inflammatory lesions that follow comedones.
So I didn't really go into all of this, but they're kind of
different stages of acne. So there's like the early
formation where it'll kind of clog your pores a little bit and
then it can move into like cystic acne depending on the
severity of it. So basically non acnegenic
addresses the the entire acne process, whereas non comedogenic
refers to the initial plugging of the poor.
So just because it's comedogenic does not necessarily mean it's
going to lead to acne. OK.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yes, But the comedogenic test,
they were testing the rabbit ear skin talk about that more last
week. But that was specifically used
because it showed an accelerated version of like the initial
clogging. Yeah.
But like we have mentioned with formulations, important
application is important. In some of these tests, they
were applying things and leaving them for like 48 hours and
stuff. I'm sure that's where this
acneogenic comes in a little bit more.
Yeah, it's clogged. But does that actually lead to
anything exactly or is it being removed?
And yes. Swept away exactly because non
acneogenic studies are usually more robust than non comedogenic
studies because a product can pass a poor clog test but still
inflamed your follicle enough that they would fail a full on
acne test yeah so non acne genic is just a more robust version of
testing assuming that the testing was done well right that
they did a good study that's. Always a big assumption, yeah?
Yes that's true but I would I don't see the term non acne
genic as much as I see non genic not.
As big of a buzzword, yes, probably because it requires a
little bit more FDA proof than non comedogenic would.
Yes, that would be my guess, yeah.
Especially because acne is regulated by the FDA.
Yeah, I don't actually know if the term non acne genic is also.
Regulated. Regulated.
I should look into that. Yeah, I don't know either off
the top of my head, but yeah. Anyway, but that's the
difference if you see those two different things.
Non acne genic is generally more robust than non comedogenic if
it's. Not regulated by the FDA.
I'm sure it's a term that's going to be making the rounds
and marketing at some point for sure, yes.
If we're not. Saying it now, we'll be seeing
it eventually once people are Privy to non committogenic not
being a big deal once. This episode comes out, things
are going to change. Once we spill the tea on
comedogenicity, the people are going to.
Know. OK, let's chat about acne
checking software and how it works and how accurate it
actually is. There are a bunch of different
websites or different types of software online.
They're typically called poor clogging ingredient checkers and
they allow you to either scan a barcode of a product or copy and
paste an ingredient list into the website.
And the theory behind it is that the software will scan the list
and then tell you if there are any comedogenic ingredients in
the product. Most of the software's use James
Fulton's 1989 study and or the original rabbit ear study as
their reference for the comedogenic ingredients
ingredients. So they're basing the software
off of ingredients that we've put on rabbit ears, which we've
50 years. Ago 50.
Years ago, which we've already discussed.
Maybe there's some accuracy issues with that?
Maybe I don't. Know I'm not a scientist.
These. Can be helpful if you're really
prone to breaking out, but they almost always over flag
ingredients because there's zero context to any of these tools.
Like every single app or website has a different metric for what
they think ingredients clog pores.
Like you can put the same product into 10 different
websites and they're going to flag different things.
There's no consistency between them, which can be really
confusing. Some companies might consider
anything above 1 to be communogenic, which we talked
about last week, but there's basically a scale from zero to
three where 0 doesn't clog pores at all in three, like strongly
clogs pores. So a company could say anything
above 1 is communogenic, Another company could say anything above
3 is communogenic. Like they all just have
different metrics. And they?
Can also provide false positives.
Rabbit skin is way more sensitive than human skin, so
ratings that are two to three on rabbits could be completely
harmless to humans. It just is not a very accurate
way of flying ingredients. And lastly, these checkers don't
consider the concentration of something.
Something at 5% and .05% in the same formula would still be
flagged the same. Yeah, but they probably would
not have the same effect on your face, no.
At those. Different concentrations
probably. Not so.
They're generally inaccurate. You really need to take them
with a grain of salt. I do not like using them, I
don't think they are a good frame of reference and I think
there are a lot of other ways that you can avoid break.
Yeah, I agree. I feel like an ingredient
checker, even though AI is getting better at understanding
like trends in formulations or in ingredients, there is still
just a lot of that is based on the information that's out
there, which when we start to look into where what that's even
based on, it's not usually super hard hitting science to begin
with. But even then, AI is not to a
point where it can scan a formula, a product barcode, and
determine comedogenicity based on the ingredients and the
formula as a whole, because it doesn't know the formula as a
whole. And the concentrations of those
ingredients are going to have a huge effect on the finished
formula. You could have the exact same
ingredients in two different emulsions and have one behave
more like a water and have the other emulsion behave more like
oil, but they could have like the exact same things in them.
Yeah, technically. There's just not any way based
on a list of ingredients in the formula, to be able to tell what
that formula is to do on your skin, especially if we're just
comparing it to results of the rabbit ear study from 50 years
ago. Exactly.
It's just not accurate, no. The ingredient checkers are not
extremely helpful, but I do feel still that like, even though
there are biases and reviews and companies incentivize positive
reviews, I still think that can be a really good source of
information on specific formulas.
Because usually you can find people who share their
experience and, like, it could have a million great reviews.
And then you'll see one that's like, this made my skin way
worse. Yeah.
And you can use that type of information as well when
deciding on products. To use exactly that.
Can also play into the marketing of products, yeah.
So for sure. So Speaking of which, Doctor
Michelle Wong of Lab Muffin Beauty, love her.
She wrote a great article that kind of summed up a lot of what
we said and also gave some really good advice for how you
can use comedogenicity scales correctly.
So if you're having a really bad breakout but you aren't sure
which product is causing it, you can use the scale to rule out
ingredients. If they're ranked really high,
like a four to five, it might not be the root cause, but it
could give you a place to start. Like, yeah, you can eliminate
maybe the highest possible contributing factor.
Yeah. Well I mean like those numbers
still came from some sort of observation.
Yep, and like if a certain petrol atom at 100% does cause
some clogged pores than a lotion with petrol atom probably has a
higher chance than a lotion. Without a lotion.
Without I mean at least enough that in your trial and error it
could be worth considering exactly, especially.
If you're breakout prone, I think yeah, that's the biggest
differentiator is if you aren't someone who really struggles
with acne or is prone to breakouts, you probably don't
need to worry about this comedogenicity scale as much as
someone who is more prone to it. But even and then because the
final formula matters so much, it just gives you a starting
point. It's just a place to maybe you
can eliminate that and see if that helps, But it's not a
guarantee that it will, right? You can also avoid applying
concentrated ingredients to your face like oils and butters if
they're highly comedogenic. Ingredients are more likely to
be comedogenic at higher concentration.
So if you're using an ingredient like coconut oil, which has a
rating of four directly on your face, and you're prone to acne,
you might want to proceed with caution or avoid it altogether.
You might be totally fine. You might have an issue.
It just depends on your skin. Yeah.
I did mention, I think last week that I wanted to try using
coconut oil to remove my makeup. But I also think it's important
to mention that if I do try doing this, I plan on following
it up with a cleanser, which would negate probably all of the
community that I would have experienced from coconut oil.
Because I'm I'm guessing that this rating of four has much
more to do with if I were to put coconut oil on top of my makeup
and then go to bed. Exactly which is not.
How I'm going to be using it, yeah.
So still going to try it, yeah. It's been a whole week since you
said you'd try it last. I.
Know I can't believe. You haven't tried it?
Well, I. Still, I haven't taken off my
makeup yet. I don't know why I'm breaking
out I. Have no idea.
I can't. Tell she also says in her
article, don't worry too much of A comedogenic ingredient is
lower than the first 5 or so ingredients because it's
probably not in the formula enough to have a huge impact.
The most important thing I think any of us could ever say about
comedogenicity is to always patch test your products before
you apply it to your face. Generally what I would recommend
is putting a little bit on your arm first.
If there's no irritation, you can put a little bit on your
face. I like to do it on like the
right below my ear, kind of because I could cover it with my
hair. If it caused any problems, I'll
apply it there for a couple days and then if I don't have any
issues, I'll apply it to my whole face.
Yeah. That can help you avoid large
breakouts. And I can also kind of help you
narrow down which products might be comedogenic to you, because
again, your personal skin and the formulation are what
actually are going to determine comedogenicity.
Together, and if you do a spot test like that, you can rule out
other environmental factors a little bit more because they can
be caused by so many other things like just disrupting the
natural process of your skin. So even just like getting a
little extra sun could make you break out, you know?
And so doing a little patch test in an inconspicuous area can
help you kind of rule out other things like hormonal acne or
incorrectly applied makeup or something like that.
That's just the factors that come into play when being alive.
Exactly. So yeah, basically the term non
communogenic use for marketing is only as good as the
unpublished data behind it. So your safest bet is to patch
test the products, pay attention to how your skin behaves, and
then also remember that the concentration and the four
formula matter way more than any single ingredient rating ever
could. Yeah.
Thank you so much for covering all of that, of course.
It really was so fun. I like dove into the article and
it was interesting to kind of see how it was done and see how
it's been misinterpreted over the years.
Yeah, I mean we. Remind you guys a lot about the
shortcomings of mankind, but just to remind you again in
case. You needed one.
In case you needed to remember, remember it again, it's trying
time. We are still in the process of
learning a lot about how this stuff works.
Science as a whole still has a really long way to come.
And we've talked about the reason why that's a slow moving
process. But there are still so many
things that we are learning about things like the microbiome
and why acne exists. And even if certain ingredients
do accelerate acne or make it worse, these are all things that
we are still trying to figure out.
It's still going to take a long time, yeah.
But hopefully we can continue as scientists to make advancements
in that and start to figure out a little bit more of the
specific reasons why acne is happening.
Yep. But for now, unfortunately, it's
still just a lot of trial and error and a lot of using our
best guess. Which is essentially the of
every single episode we've ever done.
Yeah, but don't. Ever trust people that think
they know all the answers? Because yes, those are your red
flags, Yeah. True, it's important to be able
to say, yeah, we have a decent idea, but this definitely needs
to be improved upon and there's a lot we could learn.
Yep. Don't ever stop learning, guys.
Don't do it. And let's not stop learning now.
Why don't you keep learning about this topic over on our
website where you can find our blog post and sources for
today's episode. And you can do that at
beautyxspeaker.com. You can also.
Follow us on our social media pages pretty much everywhere at
Beauty X Speaker you can also find our personal Instagram
pages. I'm Sadie, BXB and I.
Am not BXB and we. Would be so happy if you liked,
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We promise we won't spend. 10 minutes at the beginning and the
end of every episode. Asking for.
You to give us. Money.
Anyway, I'm getting a phone call and I need to go to the.
Bathroom. OK, bye.