All right, so welcome to this. I don't know which one in the
number of recordings this one is.
Is it a or something maybe? Something like that, yeah.
Yeah, we're going through them and there's not too many left of
this one, but we do a couple catching up.
I think we're going to do the Chaos Dwarfs at some point.
We will, yeah. Wood Elves will be next.
Then we've got Kells Dwarfs. Then I don't know whether it's
going to be a combined White Book and Britannia or just
Britannia and then a white, but I don't, I don't know.
Not sure A. Few special ones.
Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah.
And today we're joined by George Dunham.
Quite happy to have him on because I think many of you
might have seen his blended dark Elf army so much.
Much of an inspiration for me. So George, welcome.
And I thought maybe you could start by talking a little bit
about how you get into the hobby and the Dark elves in
particular. Yeah, thanks a lot Mathias for
the the kind introduction and the kind words about my work.
That's I'm very happy to be here and here to contribute with some
knowledge about about the dark airs.
Excellent. And so when did you start?
Did you start back in fourth or? It's in in fifths to be to be
exact. It's like dark airs itself was a
bit late to the party. So it's, I've grown up in the
West of Germany on, on the countryside, very far away from
bigger cities. And so it, it took its time
until Games Workshop appeared in this region.
So even I've so I I've came into a hobby with with few requests
before, but when there was a longer break and when I I
stumbled across a flyer, an advertisement flyer in in in a
normal game store and I was fascinated by the miniatures and
was already primed by hue Crest. So this force on very rude
foreground and it's I've get the second flyer and yeah, it's how
so often in in in in in my life and something interests me.
I did get it deep dive and I've looked and stared on these
Flyers for hours and and one time in school people said, Oh
yeah, that's warhammer, You should talk to Florian and and
and Spen they play. Oh, OK, it's nice information
and yes, excellent. And I and I get in contact with
them. I ask and and then they I get
from them the the 5th edition rule book and the peace cherry
and that was the next I stared for hours and and already in the
best year we bought about OK, what army I could.
I'm interested in what army I could imagine to play and and
it's yeah, quickly reduced to to two armies.
It was chaos and and dark elves and definitely, but I was
impressed by both because of the dragon miniatures, which were
really stunning centrepieces. And yeah, and my starring took
for so many hours, but my family and my my girlfriend at at time
point decided to yeah, give me with my my first talk of army.
That was in Christmas 1998. Wow, excellent.
So yeah, it's been, has been Dark Elf ever since.
So have you straight into other armies as well or?
Straight straight into dark EFS. So it's it's, it's, it have
started with dark EFS and it's since that it's really my my, my
biggest love in Warhammer hobby. That's great.
So did you get into painting straight away or was that
eventually? There was because also there
were not less people which with ability, which like that for
playing. And it was also very busy time
with, with, with ending school. I was already yeah, concentrated
on, on, on painting. And painting was always a big
thing in my life. So it's also earlier.
I painted a lot of things. Also I painted some build and
paint some Star Wars kits. So always a big fan of *
destroyers and. Yeah, I see something in the
background there. Oh, great pieces.
And yeah, so so so all started. Yep.
So have you been active ever since?
So have you had breaks during the?
Yeah, sure, at the beginning I really painted a lot and my my
painting style was also a bit bit simpler.
So it's I was able to paint more miniatures in, in, in shorter
time spans and I painted very, very big dark Elf army of 4th
5th edition in the first few years in hobby.
And then there was already the change to 6th edition and yeah,
and it's it's with with better and better skills.
Also in converting and sculpting, I concentrate and
concentrated more on on less miniatures also started for
competition level. And during this time it was
really reduced to a couple of miniatures each year.
Yeah, and I think we see the result on the top of your
cabinet as there is. It is a couple of golden demon.
Yeah. Oh, they're.
Oh my God, you're not seeing this.
But I don't know how many it is. A dozen.
At least there's. A lot it Yeah, it humbles.
Yeah, I think we. It's not.
It's 1919 golden demons. Oh my God, yeah, it was.
Yeah, IIA couple of years. I I realised that it's really
it's it's it's a lot. So it's then if if you go only
by number, I'm very I'm I'm in in in the top ranking lists.
So it's but it's it's it's only numbers.
So it's yeah, you can get a Slayer sort.
But there's definitely a reason you have them.
So yeah, it's great to see. I I never seen any in the flesh.
So you have this really cool. So do you still have your big
army from back in the day? No.
I I I sold it two years ago. Wow, OK.
Yeah, also 2. So 1 1/2 year ago we decided to
move. So we.
We, we, our second child was on its way and it was clear that we
have to change apartments so to have space for, for everyone.
And also that, that I have my, my, my own space here as well.
It makes necessary to move. And it was also clear that I
have to reduce my hobby space. And so it was it it, it was, it
was part of a deal to reduce a bit the cabinet space.
And it's yeah. And it also something which
which influenced this decision was that I'm, I'm, I was, I was
offered a very special piece. It's.
You can see here. Yeah.
That's a classic piece if you can just describe it for the
listeners what it is. Yeah, it's it's what original
Dave Gallagher artwork of his were in poison plate artwork.
Yeah, it's and it's, it's a magnificent piece and also of
Dark F history and yeah, I get a great chance and yeah.
And it was also, it was also part of a deal to do, to do to
pay it without going to the savings.
So it's yeah. Yeah, yeah, I understand.
Perfect. So yeah.
So for you who can't see it, we had a quick view of George Hobby
Room and yeah, a lot of interesting stuff.
Definitely. Right.
So yeah, here we are today and you're still at it.
And if we maybe look a little bit back in time, Dave is our
guy for the What happened before 4th I.
I'm really glad you didn't say expert because certainly not one
of those guy that that's I can handle that.
That attack, that's good, I think I can do.
Invitation with that one. And just about a year ago I
actually got up my hand off like quite a few 3rd edition Dark Elf
minis. So they're quite nice, quite
distinctive. On 4th edition, you don't
really, it's very easy to recognise what what's what.
So yeah. So what's your experience or
impression of Dark Elf during 3rd edition?
Dark Elves. There were two articles in White
Dwarf that really made me love those models.
I've been slowly building them up and I will be painting dark
elf army very soon of that era. So 3rd and prior have a very
different look to them than the 4th head Dark elves.
And there are two articles, like I said, one is, I don't know the
the issue numbers off the top of my head, but one, it was a
Marauder army deal that had loads of their lovely sculpts in
and lots of cavalry as well. And that was a vision.
You know, the, the Marauderama deals were great because they
were painted miniatures they showed you and it wasn't the
ones they used in nor their normal photos in Wolf.
They didn't really have studio armies at that point and such,
but they weren't the ones using the normal photos.
And it just, it was jaw-dropping.
It was absolutely gorgeous. Very.
Colourful. Yeah, and then there was also, I
can't remember the the chap's name, but there was, there was a
small 1000 point Dark Hill Farm in it's something like issue 144
or something like that. It's the one with the corn
berserker on the front, the classic corn berserker used on
used on at least one of the Warhammer albums.
It's and and it's got this 1000 point Dark elf army and it's
it's a lovely little army. It's it's phenomenally painted
and just really cool. And I used to work out this a
similar army. This is thirdly, it's a third
edition army. I used to work out the list in
4th edition as well. And you could pretty much do it
was pretty much points for points.
It's not far off, same point as cost, almost literally the same
points costs, but just a nice little force.
And so that's where I'm going to begin.
I'm going to paint that up. Do you have the minutes now or?
I do, yeah. I've got, I've got them, just
got to paint them. So hopefully that's going to be
either tail end of this year, so sort of August onwards, or early
next year. So I'll do it so it can be used
in both 4th edition and 3rd. It.
Can be used. It'll probably be able to be
used in 6th as well, which is the other edition I tend to
play. You know, those are my 3 core U
editions and pretty much the same models can be used.
The only body contention might be Dark Riders, which seems to
be in almost every edition of of of Warhammer.
If you like the giant elf horse model, then you're OK with dark
riders. If you don't, dark riders
difficult. But interestingly in the in the
third lists for dark elves, you've got 2 choices of horse
rider. You had two, you had two cold
ground riders and two horse rider types.
So the so if you remember we talked about before in the 3rd
edition, you had plus elites. So plus 1 + 2 + 3 and all +4 and
all those were additions to stats for each plus you got a
different stat went up by 1 now, so +2 it had two combat had two
additions plus three had three. So the the cold one nights with
the +3 and plus one shock elites.
So so you had hell drakes and doom drakes.
So hell, Drakes were the were the elite of the elite and doom
drakes were the plus one elites and then your two levels of
horse cavalry, Doomsdays and dark riders.
Doomsdays +2 elites and dark riders plus one elite rather
plus one. No, they're not.
They're not elites. They're just bog standard dark.
Oh, sorry. Yeah, plus ones with other cold
one nights. But both of them could have
barding. So so you could have heavier
sort of missile troops, although dark riders didn't have to
missile troops. They came to stand with a hand
weapon like armour and shield. And then you could give them
barding, You could give them crossbows.
You give them repeating crossbows or lances.
So repeating crossbows weren't as standard for any dark elf
troops. They were.
They were an upgrade to their crossbow.
And with a lot of them you could give them crossbows or upgrade
to repeating crossbows. And in actual fact, each of the
cavalry types, all four of those didn't come with crossbows.
We could give them crossbows or upgrade.
To repeated crossbow. So.
So they they could all be missile troops.
All of them. OK, so could tailor.
That weird for any cavalry, for any army, all of them could be
missile troops. Not not high elves.
I don't even would always get that as well.
So that's that's unique to dark elves.
All of their cavalry could be missile troops.
All right. Yeah.
So George, do do you have an experience from the 3rd edition
minutes? Have you painted any?
Yes, sure. It's, it's, if you see this
small tower here, it's it's, it's all future projects.
OK. It it also contains a a a a big
draw with Fred edition miniatures.
And I also yeah, because I'm a great fan of work of Ellie and
and Trish Morrison and me by Trish Karl.
I'm I'm I'm totally aware of the miniature range they created in
in Fred edition. Yeah.
And you talked the different choices dog writers and so on.
They appear in later edition where the entrance that went
away or is it basically the same stuff It's.
Pretty much the shade the same. You had shadows instead of
shades or dog with scouts. Yes they were called shadows in
this edition but they were the scouts.
You did have beast masters that had pack animals.
So there were you had beastmasters.
They could either have war hounds, which were very sort of
Bloodhound style, or they could have chaos hounds your your bog
style. What you had to take was you had
to take 20 crossbow men, 40 warriors, and at least 10 witch
elves. And then there was a Dark of War
altar, which kind of became the Cauldron of blood, I guess, in,
in. Yeah, Yeah, I remember that one.
Was it there were guys carrying it around and.
Yeah, absolutely. They were witch elves as well.
So it kind of morphed into the Cauldron of Blood, really.
And they're repeating crossbow, sorry, repeating bolt thrower.
So there's not that much different really between this
list and what came later, other than obviously the the 4th
edition list having additional stuff to it.
Yeah, and you have special characters and so on.
No, no, no, no special characters.
And then you could have a you could have monstrous hosts,
ethereal hosts, and chaotic hosts.
Monstrous hosts. You could actually have.
You could have units of cold ones on their own in the
monstrous host, which is weird. Oh OK, without dryness so.
Yeah, exactly. And also golden Warhounds, which
I guess kind of alligator sort of things, I guess.
And they could have they could have harpies, I believe.
Just give me a second. Yeah, they could could have a
unit of harpies, but that that was in their chaotic host
maximum of six. You only get 6 harpies.
So it wasn't like racked up things and then allies.
They were the so they they could have chaos allies, scathing
allies, familiar or undead. No one saw goblin in there, but
mercenaries they're allowed Nippon hobgoblins and ogres
those eastern. Yeah, well, I guess where
Negroth is. It kind of almost makes sense I
guess, but there was written into their background in 3rd.
Not that it was massively extensive.
There was a fair amount of crossover with.
The Asian whammer yeah, and I think the aesthetics of the 3rd
edition do have a bit of Eastern influence in it.
I believe I'm. Not so, it's that that'd be an
interesting 1 to pursue. Maybe is is like an Eastern I?
Have some I have some some some nice additions to that.
It's that that beast master and beast concept, it was really
thought at the beginning to take this into 4th edition where,
yeah, maybe a bit more than only ideas.
So this can clear. A couple of years ago then Mark
Gibbons showed us some unreleased of Dark of Artworks 2
which didn't get in the book. One is his concept for
assassins, which is very close to the Maroda assassins with
that that snake like swords may have and yeah, without a cloak
and more in yeah, in in skinny clothes.
And the other one was an explicit beastmaster artwork
created for for the book and it finally it was decided.
But we did. We didn't as a Superbey the
beastmaster choice made it into the book and so it was.
It was never used, but it shows. The marauder beastman, the
beastmaster with his two horns. It's very very, very nice art.
And they also fought a bit about develop this concept further,
where there was also the idea of of, of smaller monsters with the
dark F cuts sent into battle. And Trish created a small range
of of monsters. So we all knew the hippogriff
Marauder Hippocryph, which was released as a single monster was
also an unreleased chimera. It's also created around 1994
which was part of this set and a third one is an is a multi core
which based on which used the Cowers hound which was made.
Yeah. Yeah, I know which model it is
quite small actually, but. Yeah, it's they are all.
Three big yeah, it's kind of in between, isn't it?
It's. Yeah, it's, it's so it's it's
finally this, this one was this one ended as a, as a, as a chaos
hound. But I, I've, yeah, read that
these were planned as, as beasts sent into into war by the dark
Earths, but they finally didn't like the concept that you have.
They are all winged monsters and it it doesn't make really sense
to accompany them with some beastmasters and food.
And finally we dropped the idea and yeah, only one miniature
made the made it into release and one was changed And yeah,
the the chimera is only seen by yeah, from time to time.
So it's I think also we're more Marauder War Hydra fits also
into that. It's only one of the last mini
issues which concept was was followed.
Yeah. So did you get any insight?
Well, these changes in direction, was that the reason
why the book came out late? Did they have to sort of redo
some of the ideas and? But it's yeah, I, I, I know that
Ellie produced the first Dark F miniatures in 1993.
So it's a it's a handful of miniatures.
He designed it the two the two metal sword men, some of the
first miniatures he did. I think these were prototypes of
stand in for the later plastic. The the plastic dark earth was
also I think it was planned for the Talisman game.
The the rules were later released in the in the white
dwarf for it, but it it didn't never came as an official box.
And in in this regard he also did a couple of other miniatures
but was a witch elf so did this one one which which stand out
from the released miniatures with the cross swords highly
detailed miniature compared to the others.
It was also one of his pieces from 1993 and he also created 2
sorceresses which were unreleased and never saw the
light of the day. But you, you have do you have
all those minutes that? You yeah.
So I can I can show them if you if you want.
Yeah, we can do that outside the recording, yeah.
Also good for listeners. Yeah.
And also the the first Spearman also based on the on these two
sort men. So it's a bit unclear.
So that's also why the the tabs can lie with the dates when they
used for for conversions. It's not clear if it's from the
same year or was it was it was it changed later?
So, but it's, it's I also think that sorry, but I also think
that the first Spearman were also some of of his miniatures.
And it's very interesting that you find all these miniatures,
the sorcerers, the witchelf, the swordman and the Spearman on the
cover from Dave Gallagher for the 4th edition book.
So he used them as reference miniatures for creating the
artwork. These are some of the 1st and it
was also the the first artwork created from Des Henley was also
for the for the for the sword man and Tishi also used this
miniature for reference. So that's that's that was the
early beginning in 1993 and yeah, when there was some break,
I don't know what what happened. So it's, I also know that in
Jervis Johnson worked in parallel and Blood Bowl.
So it's and, but and, and at the beginning it was also that that
Rick was on the project. He handed it over to to Jarvis.
It's yeah, it's I think to understand the workflows in the
studio. It's yeah, it's competing
interests. So you're always with with 40K
part which and you have limited resources and so, yeah.
Yeah, they got stuck between somehow.
Maybe so and it and I think they started a project when in 1994.
So it's with also Mark Eben started doing producing the his
artworks in in in mid to end in 1994, but here also without any
reference miniatures. So illustrators in most cases
use the the miniatures as a reference.
And when you take a closer look at Mark's very fantastic
artworks, you see that they're based on the the 3rd edition
miniatures, but were more raw miniatures.
So the Dark F Commander and on on on Cold 1 based on the Fed
edition code once his the the two unreleased pieces, it's very
obvious that these are more raw Diminias.
But also the Scout, for example, is very close artwork to to a
more raw Scouts. And he also said in personal
communication with me that he had a lot of freedom and doing
the dark elf artworks. So normally.
So it it was typical in in in in the 90s that the projects start
with John Blair doing a big one sided piece, putting putting
everything in it. So it's it's also it's also one
as a John Blanche had had such a piece in the book.
So it's a big. Influence.
Yeah. And and this is where the
centrepiece which everything is orientated on, on the data
design. But I think this I I don't have
a date of this artwork, but I think it was, was later.
Mark had a lot of freedom doing his art and so he created some
of the most stunning, you know, bohem art pieces.
Moravi for example. Yeah, yeah, there's some great
pieces. It's exceptional.
So it's he also had think freedom for Malekif and yeah,
it's and yeah. And at at late in 1994, the
first the first troopers come in and the the project really
starts running. Yeah.
So, yeah, excellent insights, very interesting.
Some of I have heard, some I haven't.
So great to be able that you've been able to share that.
The Chronicle Man is proud to be sponsored by Scott at Black
Arrow Minis. Scott has a range of second hand
miniatures from several manufacturers which include
Citadel, Grenadier, Ralpatha, Battletech and many more.
Collections that I enjoy pouring over are the old Perry Empire,
Ally Morrison's Marauder Dwarves, and the old metal
models for Epic Space Marine. So go take a look today and head
over to Scott's website at www.blackarrowminis.com.
Right. So we're back and we had some
great insights in the sort of leading up to 4th edition.
So that's really good to hear. And but then eventually the 4th
edition book dropped and that was was it 95 or how was it?
Would have been around that. Yeah.
It was June. Not one of the last few, wasn't
it? Yeah.
Absolutely. 19 June 1995. Yep.
There's the expert. Yep, and I I'm still to actually
own the physical books so I haven't been able to get it yet,
but I certainly intend to. I guess you have it yours, of
course. Yeah, sure.
Yep. And do you have a take?
I do have a physical book also there.
There's a copy I've just found on script as well, so that's
handy. So I have the physical one, but
also access to an electronic one as well and that's what I'm
using right now to save me having to flick through pages.
Yeah, that's the same for me. And first of all, did they
release any, were they any different omnibooks?
I know for example the Empire, they had like 1 version in 5th
as well. Or was it just are they more
than one version of the book? Basically, are they identical?
Yeah, they they changed some of the pages in for the for the 5th
edition. So it's the the the 4th edition
books always came with also with the catalog pages at the end.
And these these were completely removed in 5th edition.
Yeah, they had. Sample armies in the 5th.
Yeah, they had sample armies and also the the EV metal sites were
extended. They they removed the the the
the you have the dark magic spell cards and the the items
because we're also the the magic to the complete get get a
complete overhaul and the free space we're filled with dark
cart miniature. So it's it's edition book also
contains this this he and his dragon and also the boat for the
sponsor Sean. Quite a quite a few changes.
Then you should be able to recognise which edition you have
quite easily. There might.
There might be 3 versions then, because I've got 1 here.
Yeah, this one has. Brought.
The army page. The Army list pages.
Yeah. Not the catalog pages, but also
has the magic item pages and so it's 3 versions and kind of
there's there's the midpoint 1. Bit OK, bit hard to say for me
because it's it's, it's my German version, but the German
version from I think it's Uncle Elephant.
Uncle Elephant it's it's copyright 1996 and it could also
contain some of of of of a card stuff, but you can see here
dragon and also boat floor so. Interesting.
It's. It's has, yeah.
It's really an upgrade overboard.
So did they do any actual changes in the rules?
Because for example, the Empire, they snuck in a few things
changes to, you know, if they did any of those actual stats
changes or anything. I know I know from the by draft
articles and and question and answer section that there were
some rule changes for dark earths which also maybe were get
their way into the book. So it's I'm, I'm, I'm not very
rude guy, but I think 11 of if I remember correctly, one of the
points discussed there was the selection of both for us, which
was related to troop types and and also the the number of both
flowers you can take and maybe this was corrected.
Yeah, Yeah. I think they they cost 50 points
at some point the. The high off 1 was I don't think
there were ever 50 points in the dark health book.
I seem to remember there was an errata in the dark health book.
Was it an errata? It might have been an
acknowledgement there was a difference in costs or it might
have been saying that high we should now cost 100, but it was
never until until they released the high off book in 5th 50.
And my view of that is always they're getting cheaper because
there are less they they get less benefits, as it were.
I mean, I'm going to say it right now to get it out of the
way. I think darker book is a little
bit cheesy compared to the high off book, although a lot of
other people have the same view. Other people don't think so.
There are certainly more benefits to their units than
there are. Yeah.
And I mean, we have talked a little bit about that previously
that they they had the tendency as opposed to add special rules
as time goes by, because initially the first books they
had are they any? And then over time there were
more and more and there are quite a few ones in in darkness,
I guess. So are there any army wide
special rules they have hatred against?
I am sore I. Think that's the only army wide
special rule. And another one I've got an
issue with that, you know, that's that's fine.
That's fluffy and it is as we said, it's it's army wide.
So it means that everyone has the same role.
So so that to an extent, I don't mind that sort of thing.
And especially with darker, I've got an issue with it because
it's, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've got an issue with that at all.
Anything there's anything else? Obviously there's there's this
change to crossbows in this version of the dark health list
where they go from having standard crossbows with repeat
across as an option to upgrade to being repeat crossbows as
standard. I guess in that's part of the
drive to try and make armies unique.
As you were, diversify them a bit.
Yeah, diversify them and mean they're different to another
army that have crossbows. Could in 3rd edition could other
armies have repeats of crossbows as well?
Or was it always darker I. Think it's well, Warhammer in
mind, Warhammer Armies was optional in third, Yeah, you
could just build an army list with the rulebook.
So you know, in that sense repeat crossbows could be had by
anyone. I think in the art list, I don't
think there was anyone else that had repeated crossbows as an
option, but it but it wasn't their standard armament.
You're saying you you could choose to upgrade to it.
So that's, you know, if I remember the rules correctly,
you can either fire it as a normal crossbow or do repeated.
So. So I guess in that sense, it's
not that much of A variation, but it does make really quite
deadly at, you know, being at, OK, there's the -1 to hit, but
the extra shot. Should make up.
I think it should be worth it. Yeah.
I haven't run the statistics, but I will assume it's certainly
a benefit. Right.
So if we get into the actual list back in the days usually
you had like one option for a general and that was it.
So. And I suppose the dog, if you
know is the same stat wise as the other elf generals.
I guess I haven't. Yeah, no difference.
No difference. He.
Obviously gets the hatred and a wood elf one would get the -1 on
a Longbow as well -1 to arm a save on a Longbow.
So those two an additional thing there on the high elf one but
but stats wise look exactly the same to me.
Yeah, it's I can also extend with some information.
It was from from from the mini Asia side.
Ellie told me that the Dark Elf design was to create a evil side
of a dark elf of of a High Elf. So it's it it it should mirror
at some point. So that's with the dark Efs of
the evil mirror of, of the High Elves and much more with with
this sharp and and yeah, pointy, pointy design.
And it's and from from from from rule side or from the yeah,
from, from from what general feeling of of of game of army
design. I get an interesting information
from Jarvis some years ago, but he he really enjoyed the project
and it it it was fun to work on and what he has in good memory
was but he was interested to trying with make Dark Elves a
combined arms force which along the lines of armies fielded by
Alexander the Great and his successors.
He isn't. He's not sure if he succeeded,
but at at least it was his intention to do.
So. So it's, and this, it's also my
feeling that the army has on, on, on, on one hand really some
weaknesses, but you can compensate these weaknesses with
your, your, if your army selection and in with your
combinations and the, the, the strategy you, you, you have.
So maybe he was a bit early with this, with this idea, because
most of the focus in in in 4th, 5th edition was around the
characters and and and and the heroes.
And yeah, I think maybe the system didn't quite allow that,
but. The system doesn't.
Yeah, it's but for example, in later editions I've I played
successfully a list only with with with infantry troops.
So also with I have a Temple of Kane army.
I played without magic, without shooting, without cavalry.
It's all all hand to hand infantry.
And you, you get that you, you can, you get the playable.
So the elements of the Dark Earth list are that strong that
you can really create forces supporting each other and and
and and play with successful. And so I think he he succeeded,
yeah. So he maybe he really was too
early with this concept because the concept suffers because so
much focus on the characters. Yeah, and I suppose most players
didn't really catch up on that one, so maybe it was they.
Really. You really have to agree on so
so only one character and put your rest of your points into
troops. Yeah, and I think you're doing
4th and 5th. That would have been a pretty
brave and different approach to most armies that you saw and the
sort of the meta of the game. But yeah, that's interesting.
And yeah, it would have been cool to see an army like that.
All right, so other characters what options do the Dark Elves
have for? They've obviously got Witch of
characters as well as normal Dark Elves.
And that's interesting because that gives you the ability to
have a champion, let alone a hero in a unit that's frenzied
with the frenzy ability. Because if you think with with
one of the things that Bugbear had with Scaven was if you put a
champion in a unit of plate monks, strictly speaking, he's
not got frenzy. No, no.
And it's the same with Empire flagellants, for example.
Putting a champion there, it's going to be actually inferior to
the troopers, basically. So yeah.
And or or a swordmaster champion hails who, who doesn't have the
doesn't have the ability with his double handed weapon.
So they they kind of covered that with a magic item in
Chronicles of war eventually where you could have a high off
magic sword. That was it was like 25 points.
It was a double handed weapon that didn't make you strike
last. So they kind of covered it with
that, but there wasn't a champion with that ability.
Whereas in Dark, in Dark off book, I think they quite rightly
give you that option of having a champion that is, you know, that
can fit in with those units. Yeah.
And I think, yeah, comparably with the Slayer champions or
Slayer character choices, that's also exactly.
Yeah, so specialist. Champions.
I think that that which F hero is really the most cheesiest
selection of a book. So it's it's a good yeah, I I
saw I I I I saw an an army list from I have I have have the name
of the studio stuff in in in on my tongue.
But it's maybe it appears later, but he armed it with with with
hero. He armed it with a hellbeard and
put it on a hydra. And what's an insane output of
of damage? It's.
So how many attacks does do they have the the heroes?
Is it like 3 + 1 additional land France so it's 7 attacks or?
Well, it's 3 doubled, isn't it? So six, Yeah, whatever,
whatever. Additional weapons.
Yeah, if you give them just if. They're a hero.
OK, Yeah. OK.
SO66 basic attacks with friends, you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
And then whatever else, I mean, you can obviously, because it's
a hero, you can go mad. You can play leaping gold or or
a Hydra sword. And then you.
Yeah. Yeah, proportion of strength or
whatever. Yeah.
Yeah, well, yeah. Potion strength or what's the
other one? The Amiot of Power that came out
in in Chronicles of War that gives you addition to your
strength. Yeah.
So yeah, you could certainly go cheat, you know, very, very
cheesy with that. But similar you could probably
do with a plague priest, or they're not quite as good in
combat as a witch health. A bit more resilient perhaps?
Yeah, probably more. Yeah.
Are they toughness 5 or 4? I don't normally use plague
priests so yeah in that sense but but less weapon skill.
But they didn't have any miniatures for the dark.
Which of characters did they? Did they really?
Yeah, you can use that that that stand out which of I we talked
earlier about it's but I I think this this one was quite used
often as as a as a hero. The other one is there was also
a which elf in the Talisman City expansion which was also from
used from the studio as as a Champion Asia.
Yeah. And right.
So then we had of course, magic uses and they, well, they had
the basic choice, I guess, level 1 to 4, nothing special as such.
And at that point, they still had male magic uses.
At least they didn't. Only female.
No, they didn't have that weird rule that they put in their only
female sound that weird. It's very strange that one.
Yeah, that was in there. And obviously because they were
using dark Magic, they could put back dispels to get power or any
card. Was it any card or dispels?
I can't remember one or the other, but but they could put
cards back in the winds and Magic to try to get more cards.
They they were more powerful in that sense.
And I think they also had dealing preference as well.
So if if there were any dark Magic users on the board, they
we dealt first because strictly speaking, they were the only
spells they could have. So a bit like Orton Goblins,
when you got to your 10 spells, you would if you had any other
Wizards. You were, you were.
Yeah, you were in struck. So in the law, were they the
inventors of dark magic, or how was that described?
No, I think they were just the ones that used it.
I don't think they will e-mail. Oh, he's got a Citadel journal
out. George has got a Citadel
journal. Out, Yeah, in, in, in the in the
meantime, I I found what I have looked for.
It's it's the Citadel Journal issue 21.
It's an excellent article by Thomas Perenin discussing the
Dark Elf units and also the also some tactics.
And yes, it's what what I said about the which you have
characters, all the advantages of regular characters plus
frenzy and poison purposes. How can you possibly go wrong?
Which of yours should be at the core of your hand to hand
strategy? Remember that all the attacks
have +1 to their strengths, so why not go for to give it them
hell beards? Because we are not shut set at
BLD. When selecting magic items, give
them something that further enhances the multiple attacks or
raises the strength of their attacks.
For the ultimate infantry killer mount which if hero on a war
hydra and put it with put put with a unit of cavalry to give
her protection from missiles. Just be sure that somebody else
fights with challenges. If you include her in a Cold One
regiment, consider giving her Ducks deed instead.
The steed's higher speed may give your opponent a nasty
surprise if he could declare independent charges.
Yeah. So I think brought a bit more
competitive ideas to the yeah, because looking at a lot of the
the early 4th edition better reports and so on, they I mean,
competitiveness and so on wasn't really the prime thing about
those. So yeah, so you can definitely
make some nasty even it's. When I, when I, when I talked
about with him about the the tactic section he wrote in the
in the journal, he said especially about that Hydra
thing that he really regrets that they didn't go deeper into
the Hydra, into this Hydra topic, that they didn't make
more out of it at the time point he, he really would have enjoyed
that. Yeah, yeah.
And I guess at that point Hydra became sort of a special darker
thing. Pretty much any army could use
it, but it was sort of dark of monster of choice.
I suppose they. Had a special hydra.
They they had the Hydra, but they had the war Hydra.
Yeah. Yeah.
Isonormal hydra also. Better from from rules from
their stats. Right.
So let's move on. Are there any other?
Yeah, that's the assassin. Yeah, as in which for for Darkos
obviously is a character. Now in 3rd assassins were
characters. In the White Book Assassins were
troop types. Yeah, and how did it work with
the Scaven? Were they?
Scavenger troop types. Yeah, right.
Yeah, but then for. Darkos.
It goes back to being a character.
Now my regular opponent, my my long-suffering brother has an
issue with the Scraven assassin because he says it's unfair.
They they can basically have two in each unit and they're a troop
type choice. My counterpoint would be, yeah,
a dock of assassins have to be a character of choice.
But they are a lot nasty because they can have magic items, you
know, yes, OK, you can have a troop level weeping blade for a,
for a Scraven assassin. They come with a standard, but
that's it. They can't have anything else.
Whereas dock of assassins Ouch. They can have a magic item on
top of I think that do they have poisoned as standard.
I think George or Doka for assassins in fourth.
Do you know? Oh no, I don't know.
OK. I would I would guess they
probably would do. That would make sense, but I
guess the normal thing would be to keep them out with some nasty
stuff. Yeah, well, I, I think it's
probably given some like a black amulet or something like that.
Or or or a heart of woe hell. Of the atomic bomb.
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, but but but it's yeah,
it's it's an interesting distinction between the two.
You know, sceven assassins troop type, whereas dark of assassins
are are, you know, characters. So magic item or we there we go
Have we got that? Yeah.
Oh, I can't see your screen, Those two.
Sorry, it's it's I can confirm poison attacks.
Yeah, they get plus one to their strength and already so, so
they're up to strength 5, which is, which is kind of nasty.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah.
And he inflicts more wounds so especially.
He's got that as well. The D3, yeah.
Yeah, it's AD 3. Oh, so even before medic items
it's going to be pretty nasty and and just boost it further.
Exactly. So yeah, doctors are seems
nasty. Yep, definitely nasty, right?
So I guess that's it for the characters?
Or did we miss any? No, that comes all of them.
Yep, right. So let's at least start with the
chips, the bread and butter. Yeah, cold 1 Knights and dark
riders for your cavalry. So the slim down from the 3rd
edition list, but I think that's what they were in the white in
the white book list off top of my head.
It was just like, you know, cold 1 Knights and heavier light
stuck with it. Yeah.
Yeah, and obviously Cold one. So the cold one cavalry is
pretty iconic and and stupid so. Yeah, they are.
Yes, we're the leadership of three as well, but luckily the
cold one nights have have a better leadership.
I'm just having a quick check in the best story because I can't
remember top my head, but I know balls not stupid, but they're -1
to lead ship. I don't know if that's minus to
leadership for right. I think there was in 3rd, but I
don't know if there's a minus to lead.
No, there's no minus. To leadership.
No it's just stupidity. So you should be OK with Liege
probably led by a hero at least boosted to Liege 9.
So you you should be fine. And obviously you can take a
magic banner for 10 points that negates the.
Yeah, what's the point in that? Exactly.
Well, it is. It's a 10 point banner that just
negates stupidity. But there's no, there's no killy
killy there. No.
And yeah, So that's cool. Obviously you fail the
leadership testimony. Exactly wrong.
But but but banacos were reduced later so it's at the beginning.
It was a 5050 pints points spanner.
Oh, OK. Was.
It Oh, OK. I thought it was 10.
I always lose 10. OK, 50.
That's a lot of points for that. Yeah, but I think that's one one
of the more boring items you can have, the one that sort of
negate your negative stuff. I mean, that's the sort of part
of the charm really, to have those special rules if you want
them so. That's the point.
I guess that's why they reduced the points value because no one
was bothering to take it. Yeah, probably.
Yeah. And obviously with the
leadership of three, it would have been a bad idea to have
them on their own, like you said they could.
Yeah, yeah, they, they probably wouldn't do much.
So that's probably worse than trolls, actually.
I think so, you know, that's, that's that's proper stupid.
That's, of course. I always say that was a weird
choice though. For the idea of what I suppose
the the original Cold One models were a little bit more dopey
looking, yeah. They were.
Kind of a lizard looking thing. Raptors of 4th edition just
don't look like they'd suffer from stupidity.
No, no, I mean. They, they just look like your
killing machines, you know, prejudice.
So I could understand more of a a blood greed kind of monitor
sort of thing that once they've made a kill, they stick around
to eat, to eat what's killed. That to me fits more with the
Raptor look. Than and I don't remember, are
are they the only cavalry? Did Chaos have some that sort of
had a monsters cavalry or in 4th edition?
Or were there any others? Wood Elves obviously got the the
war Hawks, but they were the only ones with monstrous
cavalry. Yeah, they were.
Obviously you could have things that moved as fast as cavalry,
like your dragon. Quite as fast.
Yeah, but, but. But monstrous cavalry less.
Yeah, I suppose the demonic ones.
Yeah, you. Yeah, could be, yeah.
Those would be monstrous cavalry, I guess, but, well, not
really monstrous because they're, they're still cavalry
sized, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
Other beasts. They've got wolves and boars.
They're not horses for for autumn goblins, but.
Yeah, and the cold ones, I mean, they had two attacks, right?
So they were. Oh yeah, they.
Were. Straight 4 as well.
Yeah, most times they kill more than their Knights on it, Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Especially in subsequent rounds
of combat. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's a good point. When when they've no longer
when, when the Knights are down to strength 3, then then
probably your cold ones are going to do the damage.
So they're they're a bit more survivable than other forms of
cavalry. Maybe in that sense, they're
able to do more damage out. But yeah, yeah, I mean, they're
characterful. They're like, it's it's it's a
really cool idea, you know, elves riding lizards.
It's, you know, it's whatever kind of the, the only ones I
would say probably weren't called with a 6th edition called
ones that just looked like Diplodocus in Brontosauruses or
something. Like that?
Yeah, the that one. Yeah, they didn't look great.
They probably. No, no, I don't take them, no.
Yeah. The light is.
Not so. Bad but but the the cold ones
themselves Horrendous but. Yeah, I, I don't get that.
Yeah. I I prefer the earlier cold ones
look, but I also love the Raptor ones as well.
They're lovely. They're really nice models and
and the and the general on the Raptor style cold 1 is just
yeah, that's that's really cool. That's a cool model.
True. So yeah, I I like them.
I prefer the old one, but we we can always say that whenever we
do on these books, they go I prefer the old.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the way you old
Croc. Yeah, afraid so.
Yeah. All right.
So yeah, good choice and distinctive.
And then we have the dock riders, as you said, the light
cavalry. The best light cavalry in the
game. Yes they are, aren't they?
Yes, as a high health player, yes they are, aren't they?
No, I'm not bitter about the differences between between
Elurine Rivas and and Dark Riders at all, in any way, shape
or form. No.
And I think where where we played back in the day.
So I think I mentioned that before we basically ignored
light cabaret because heavy cabaret was much cooler.
Of course, they had, they were nights.
But as you said, from a, if you want to develop your tactics, I
think light cavalry is definitely there.
And they they were also included in the book as miniatures, but
also miniatures never released, so it's ungutted.
They were they were really nice models as well.
I. Really.
For the ones they did release in 5th.
Yeah, I was. Rumoured because they are a bit
short of of of belly because the torso sits directly on the on
the leg part. But that's I think all covered
miniature suffering in in that edition.
And I had also when I put together my my my regiment, I
increased the high about two to three millimetres.
So that way of year in the same same size range of the Cold War
nights. And so they they look really
look really nicely. But yeah, they designed by Ellen
Morrison in 1995 but were never released.
I think they wanted them to. To make some changes.
But then there was also the plastic horse on its way which
was released with the wood Alfs and they didn't fit on on that.
They didn't fit on that plastic horse and so they are decided to
not release them and they get the second chance when Gary
Morley made his designs for 5th edition.
For and. I mean the.
You should campaign. Good models, but yeah, I also
prefer the later ones. So I think the the ones released
in fifth they they definitely have more of a 6th edition
aesthetics to them. So I think they maybe don't fit
with the older models too well. All right, So what makes them
great in game? Everything about them.
Yeah. Doing.
With repeating crossbows, so it's put them early up in the
game. So it's so to to to feel them
outside your deployment zone. So it's it's may have so much
advantages. The expert rides and foreign
flee so it's not like they don't get minuses.
I think to move when they move and shoot and they can rally as
soon they flee from a charge and can rally straight away.
So there's no. Danger.
You know, and and and all. Oh, and they can skirmish as
well, which again, so so the the can't do any of that.
No, they just have, you know, stats and no SPECIAL rules at
all. So they're they're they're
they're they are phenomenal. I mean they they go.
In fact, they can do double shot because they're repeating
crossbow puts them above Glade riders, you know, from from the
wood off book which came after. But they get the same rules
except for obviously the Bay of a Longbow as opposed to A to a
repeating crossbow. So yeah, yeah, they're just
phenomenally good, especially for the points as well.
They're just. I'm yet to paint them up, but
maybe I should do that next try them out.
Once you've got them, I think you probably won't leave home
without them as well if you're playing Dark Elves and they'll
be the first first unit in your list.
All right. Cool.
Right. So I think that's it,
vocabulary. And it was only two choices,
right? Yeah, yeah.
So, infantry, what's first and the list?
Which else? Which else?
Yes. We have talked a bit about them.
So, so, so iconic. So it's, yeah, it's, it's one of
of the less female regiments you have in Warhammer.
So it's having this and it's they are also very yeah, iconic
site on the battlefield because let's you have them with your
iconic hair and with a lot of skin.
So you're they are very light. So you you see from from
participants where really an eye catcher on each battlefield,
often painted with very coloured hair.
I actually have 20 on the my painting table right now and I
still haven't decided if I should go, you know, fully crazy
hair colours. So if I should do more white
with a few streaks of colour? Being being being frenzy to hand
weapons. So it's they are they can be
successful even in very small units.
So it's I think in in the white fog better reports, they have
units of eight mini issues. I think they they work very good
in that in in that 4th, 5th edition set up where you have
limited points for for troops because it's a 222 type which
works very nicely with a small number of troopers.
Yeah, as long as they don't get too much shooting attention, I
guess they Yeah, but. But but even if so, so it's when
you you feed your opponent with a lot of possible targets for
his shooting. So you have hobbies.
You have which you have the dark riders.
It's yeah. Also the boat for us, Yeah, took
took your choice. You can't shoot them all.
Something you you maybe you can a bit decide what what hits you.
Yep, that's true, and they can't be ignored.
Basically, if they get into contact it's going to hurt, so
the opponent has to. Really really hurts.
Yes, and especially if you support them with some champion
if also have some matching item. Yep.
And as I said, very, very distinctive.
I think if you had any contact with warmer fantasy, you will
know what wood shops are and how they look basically, right?
So yeah, good choice. And I guess sort of a must have,
or at least probably should have.
Well, yeah, I mean for me, if I'm doing my usual, oh, I follow
Warhammer armies from 3rd edition and when I pick my
armies in 4th edition then yeah, I've got to have at least a unit
of 10. I wouldn't actually stick so
rigidly to it. But I think, yeah, they are
definitely an iconically dark health unit.
And if you're not taking them, then you know you're not
necessarily getting into the flavour of what Dark Elves are.
Again, I'll be, I'll be using Marauder models actually.
No, they're both Marauder actually.
Sorry. I'm using earlier Marauder
models for mine. Is that the smaller ones?
They're quite short. Yeah, without, without the, I
mean, big weapons, yes, but not the huge weapons of the 4th
edition ones, and not quite as much hair.
No, I actually mixed in some of those in the the unit I'm
building now and I think it looks like it could work.
I mean they stand out a bit, but it's not like a sore thumb.
So I think if you work with the colour scheme it can work.
With a, with a consistent paint job, you'll probably mask a lot
of that anyway. You know, they'll, they'll blend
in more. So I think there's there's a lot
to be said for consistent paint jobs to blend different edition
models together, as long as it's not outrageously different.
Yeah. I mean, for example mixing the
very different cold, yeah, cold ones might be a bit.
Yeah, that would. Stand out like a small thumb.
Yeah, absolutely. But maybe the witch elder you
get away with it, you know, especially if maybe you don't
put you know, you, you keep the front rank to being whichever.
Yeah, and. Then mix the rest in in in
subsequent ranks and yeah, you probably get away with it.
All right, so we're back and we handled the the witch else.
So what more do we have in infantry?
More of the standard troops I guess, Left.
Can I just say I didn't handle any witch else Well, we've got
executioners and dark guards. Sorry Black Guard even sorry.
So I guess executioners, George over to you because you've got a
unit of these bad boys that. Very few people have not.
I actually have one as well. No, All right, OK.
I got mine really years ago. Yeah, before before eBay.
They have also marketplace called butter town.
It was in in it's around the 2000s and where I'm yeah, met a
guy who was on game state Baltimore and he had two of a
hydra and 40 of the executioners and and he decided to keep one
of the hydras, but semi 1 semi, just one hydra and and yes, this
40 execution is. Oh, you have 40?
Yeah, I have 10. So.
It's yeah, it's, it's I've, I've, I've sold 10 when, when I
sold my just this my first Army. But but it's, it's yes, my, my,
my unit's still 32%. That's the solid unit, yeah.
And I think they are quite, quite a good choice compared to
Black Guards, for example. They are really solid,
especially if you face something with multiple wounds.
I guess they're quite good, so yeah.
Again, it's it's the mirror image, the white line, and
they're just. Better.
It's frustratingly so.
You know they get heavy armour and D3 wounds, you know white
line now until you get to 3rd edition, whether sorry 5th
edition where they went silly with it and gave Maiden into
basically white lines into war dancers.
But there we go, There you go, execution as the mirror image to
the high of 1 and again, so much better.
As a we are really nice unit, we attract a lot of shooting
because you your opponent definitely did not want this
within your ranks because the damage is really outstanding.
So it's it's it's also one of these units you can pick as a as
a shooting attractor. So it's it really depends on on
on how the rest of your army looks.
So it's it's it's can work in a small unit, but you need a lot
of over troops you're which also attract shootings.
So it's if it's else. For example, if if you
definitely want them to to reach your opponent, you need to play
a bigger unit. Yeah.
So I mean, my tennis isn't really any good.
I need to I need to up the unit a bit.
Yours is a supporting unit. George is more of a frontline
unit by the. Yeah, I don't expect to get
anymore, so we'll see how that works.
But they. Are they are very as if if you
want for original 4th edition ones they are very expensive.
Meanwhile, think it's £30 per miniature.
And there are. The market is full of recast.
Yeah, yeah, that's neat. And yeah, then very nice.
I think a lot of people use the Black Guard S Executionist, the
Black Guard minis and yeah, so we'll maybe move on to the Black
Guard is that I think those miniatures are very nice
compared to we talked about Code One Nights.
Might be a bit of a work to actually paint.
I think the Black Guards painted very nicely.
I think that was a pleasure to paint for some reason.
Really enjoyed that one and. A few units that that doesn't
surpass the high off version. They're they're the same as the
more bland. Yeah, they have hatred, OK, so
they have that. But but aside from that, you
know, stats wise, rules wise, I think they're pretty much the
same as a Phoenix Guard. You know if it's like 14 points,
most 15, but you can give them heavy armour and they're 15 as
well, so they're about the same. It's a nice example of this
mirror thing. So it's the the the evil mirror
of of the Phoenix car. Yeah, but nothing special rules
wise. Basically, you know, sort of
kind of have a camera infantry. Sorry.
Yeah, pretty much. I'm just quickly checking.
There's no special rule. I've gone and said that and
we're going to go, Oh yeah, they don't have that.
I don't know. I don't think they have any.
No, I don't. Think, I don't think they've
even got an entry. I don't think they just, they
just dark health warriors in effect.
Well, elite dark health warriors with Albert's, yeah.
OK, cool, cool. Not too much to say you've.
Got cross by men warriors and dark elk city garden.
Dark Elk City Guard are interesting because the concept
of the split unit are you having Spearman and a missile troop in
front of them in the same unit comes from well, obviously
history, but from a Warhammer perspective, higher always had a
unit that could do that. In 3rd edition Merchant come
that were Spears or Howard's behind Bowman and that
disappeared, obviously, in the in the high off book in the in
the white book. And yet dark elf gained one of
that, which is yeah, kind of kind of a bit strange, but I
would think they're probably the ultimate defensive unit.
OK, OK, high offs had Lothian sea guard, which were equipped
with both spear and mist weapon, but this is slightly different.
So they're cheaper crucial because your front rank has the
crossbows and then after that you've got the Spears.
So probably quite a very good defensive unit.
I'd thought, I haven't played with them, I don't know, but
they they seem on paper like a really good defensive unit, you
know, because he's they can fight in both ranks in close
combat. So.
Yeah, and modus wise where they the variously normal warriors
that. You just, yeah, you just spear
men and and crossbow men in a combined unit, I think.
So they never released any special?
No, no, no, they didn't. Right.
So yeah, but as you said, an interesting show.
I actually didn't even remember they were there until you said
it. So.
But that's true. They they had only just very
short appearance. So it's in in 6th edition gave 4
didn't like the concept because he said it's the the dark AFS
are pirates and marauders. They don't fight their battles
on their own ground or less on their own grounds.
So it's no need for the concept of city guards.
So use your your your your troops guarding the cities.
So it's and why take them far away into battle?
So it's he dropped the concept completely and it disappeared.
Was it in the? Was it in the kind of in all the
six edition books they had additional army lists?
There was a specialist which. Yeah.
They played a bit around with the concept, but it's.
It's yeah, it's. Kind of your opponent has to
agree to it sort of thing, isn't it?
It's not. It's not as standard.
Right. And then you have the of course
the basic warriors, you could have sword, a shield of spear,
and. That's also very interesting
that the the 4th edition has the the classic warrior, which is
also something the highest did not have personal counterpart.
So maybe a bit the the the shadow warriors, but they are
already especially in other ways.
And then in in later editions, the Warriors also disappeared to
reappear into the 8th edition. Yeah, they did.
I mean, I think the high off book had warriors a separate.
Yeah, they did. They had warriors a separate
option, but there were no models released in fourth for them.
They did have warriors as a separate option to Spearman.
So they're mirroring high off book in that sense because
obviously bear in mind, you know, hope it was one of the
early books. So you're High Elves back then
there were quite a lot of elf models.
They weren't necessarily High elves.
There was no distinction in High Elf and would have really in
models that much. There were some that definitely
were one or the other, but generally speaking, it's kind of
it blurred the lines. A lot of those were hand weapon
arms. So if.
You're. Using your old high elf army
then you'd have probably wanted to still have warriors and and
certainly if you're using the pre 4th edition dark elves then
Spears. Really rare model for dark elves
to have. So most of them were just armed
with, well actually a lot of them were armed with hand
weapon, shield and crossbow on their back.
So. Yeah, so I guess that's why they
included the dark Elf warriors still and obviously as there was
the plastic, as you said, the plastic my post that had a sword
and if you're lucky then the metal ones.
I've got 1 knocking around somewhere.
Are those I don't know how Manchuka?
I think it was in the eBay lot. It just happened to be in there.
As opposed to what? If if you have a metal once, be
happy. It's yeah.
OK. We are quite quite expensive.
It's nearly the same range like executed.
And that was just in a lot. I didn't buy it for that model.
It was just kind of in amongst stuff that I bought.
It was somebody in there. Yeah, quite, quite.
Yeah, kind of like the. Monopoles.
I think they. Are quite all right actually,
when you paint them up, I mean, and it's 2 versions, so it's the
metal versions, so it's you have. 2 versions, 2 were merged
into each other just for creating the plastic 1, so it's
the metal ones are quite nice, yeah.
It's hard to. Rank up.
But if you you put them a bit, yeah, I put my 1.
So yeah, to put. Them sort of different places on
the the basis it works, but needs a bit planning all right
so. And then the.
Crossbows, of course. We talked about the repeated
crossbows as Dutch, and I guess they're not Nothing special
about them apart from actually having crossbows.
So can put out quite a lot of bolts, so with a.
Decent rate, yeah, with a. Decent ballistic.
Skill obviously at -1 for the repeater, but they're, you know,
the ballistic skill of four initially should compensate
enough for that that you're still fit.
You're hitting, you know, 50% but twice.
So you should get more shots hit actually than normal high off
unit of Bowman. So yeah, it's.
Yeah, I'm, I'm going. To I'm going to stop being
bitter. Yeah, and also.
As I said, pretty iconic for dockets, so defensive unit, but
you probably see them in quite a few lists.
All right, so is that it for two choices?
Then you've got scouts. Scouts.
Yeah, of. Course, but no models.
In the fall? Not for scouts.
Well, of course it's not for scouts, but scouts.
Somehow managed to get bliss skill of five.
I'm not sure how that how that works.
And they're they're really very good shots.
So how do they compare to Shadow Warriors?
They are. They're units.
Take a guess. They're not.
You know Shadow Warriors aren't. As good it's, you know, scouts
are better, they got the hate. Although to be fair, shadow
warriors do hate dark elves, so at least you've got that.
But yeah, no, they, they have their repeating crossbow and
bliss is skill of five. So there is no competition.
Shadow warriors are bliss is skill four and then you have a
boat. So they're getting two shots at
least it's skill of five. Yeah, what's what's what it's
going to be very messy the the outcome of of them shooting
anyone. So they're very good, obviously.
And they can skirt and have the scout special rule as well.
Whereas whereas shadow warriors don't have they, they, they can
scourge where they don't have the scout special rule.
So you know they, they are far superior to shadow in every way
shape or form. There is no contest.
They are on a par with wood elf scouts.
Although obviously wood elf scouts only have a bow, but
there is an extra -1 to save. So you could make an argument
for them being roughly about the same.
But yeah, far. Superior to Shadow Warriors.
Both of them and it's the only. Regiment which never get really
miniatures designed in the 4th edition there was really no no
attempt to design miniatures yeah yeah don't know the reason
why we did put. From 1 of this.
So it's, I know that the, the Army books were often written in
in, yeah, in advance before the miniature design starts.
So Jervis said, which tried to cover what might be possible
and. When?
We we see what could be realised, but yeah, there was,
there was. I think it was already in the.
5th Edition. Where Shane Hoyle did a regiment
of of scouts which was never released.
But from from quality side, it looks more or like some, some
some test designs. So the weapon design is very
small. And so we did not fit the range
nicely. Well, it's it's also got very
one that. Thinking was linear in a sense
for they're coming from position of already having models for a
lot of these things in, you know, in the back catalog, yet
quite hit that every time you release line, but you have to
redo every single unit. That mentality hadn't hit yet.
So if you look at you know, the well, the empire book and hive
books are slightly different because they did overhauls of
the entire ranges with Empire. It was, you know, it was a
flagship for the release. You know, they redid the empire
book, You know, sorry, the empire range for that Hiles.
They weren't really great high off models beforehand.
Yes, yes, Jess did some brilliant elf models that they
elfs those have touched on before.
They're elves. They're not high olds as such.
They redid them when you get into the Orkin Goblin book, they
redid some of the lists and some of the new entries got models,
but a lot of the other ones you just use what they already had.
So all boys didn't get any new models.
You could easily just use all Cara boys and all crossbow boys
were, you know, all Cara boys with crossbows.
They used the old ones, the dwarfs.
They pulled most of the dwarf range during fourth was a third
edition range with a few extra bits.
So the concept of an entire overhaul of the entire range, it
wasn't It wasn't really there yet.
So I guess because it was, there were models you could use as
scouts. OK, they didn't really fit
brilliantly. They they didn't look completely
out of place. They didn't fit brilliantly.
And that's that's kind of why maybe because they weren't in
that place of rejoining every single model.
There weren't until the 6th edition, I guess that hit
exactly. Yeah, there.
Were no Corsairs, they had to do models of those.
There were no black card. They had to do models of those
and they did the Spearman and crossman because that's, you
know, bog standard thing to do, you know, so not to do some
items for the for the list was it wasn't really in their
concept that that in their mind that they should have a model
for every single item on the list.
Yeah. You either used the previous one
or you converted something. Yeah.
And of course there was scout models from.
That you had to use then I don't have any, but I'm on the
lookout. So if you are you doing any, why
are we doing some of those? So, right, so and then.
Courses. We mentioned them.
Briefly also pretty nice models I think.
Yeah, very chronic as a way they they became.
A flagship for later editions, especially because.
The the. Lead of Gay Forbes, who really
put this pirate theme into into the centre of of of dark Elf
theme. Yeah, it's in in in 4th edition.
They are equipped with two hand weapons.
And I have. Iconic sea dragon cloaks.
So it's it it started that quite simple, yeah.
No special rules so. Is there otherwise, apart from
the cloak, yeah, I think that there's going to be a sea dragon
cloak. So again, if you were to take a
view of getting better, again, if you had to take view of, you
know, like the white line cloak versus the sea dragon cloak,
there's no benefits to a white line click.
It's just a cool model. It's so the, you know the.
Again, it's building in something.
On top of the basics. So it's just part of what feeds
into my view. You know, the the the dark off
and the and the wood off a little bit Opie, But that's just
my view. No, no, I think that's
definitely. Fair, because as you say, they
they mirror them mostly and then they add something that's I
think you see here nicely. What, what, What?
Chervis said. But he wants 2 which interact
with each other. So it's a you have, you have
that if a repeating crossbow you have a shooting, but only with
24 inches. So it's you definitely have to
move on the battlefield with your shooters.
And also if you start moving on on the battlefield, you also
need to to to to use some protection and the causes are
very fine units to take the line of sight and to to take the
shooting while rest of your troops start marching over the
battlefield. The other The other thing I'm
nice about darkness is. They get a lot, a lot doing for
lots the right word, but more units can have magic banners
than high off unit. So you get your obviously you've
got maybe not, maybe not my my I suppose if you they've got
Phoenix guards got dark. OK, maybe not.
Maybe it's about the same. Yeah, Because.
No, because their basic standard troops.
Can't have magic, OK? I was thinking that they're
warriors, could have magic bands.
They can't. So no, they they don't.
I'll take that one back. Oh, OK, Yeah, I'll be fair.
But they. Also get harm.
They do, but they. Obviously they do get harpies as
well. Only one unit.
Can only have one unit of them in Dark Air Force, whereas in
Chaos you can have as many as you want, but darkies only have
one unit of them. But they are there as well in in
the infantry, not in the monsters section.
So they they it's been rank and filed so that that's you know
quite handy for dark. I was that they can take them in
rather than being a monster option there.
Yeah and solid choice as. Long as they.
Oh yeah, right away. No.
Good. Yeah.
No leadership. But two attack.
I don't know. I don't really want to attack I
thought. They had two attacks or is that
later editions? I get 2 attacks, OK.
I always thought half. He's had two attacks, OK.
Only one attacked. Them but weapons skill 4 though,
which is quite good. Two wounds toughening yeah.
So they're basically flying beast, yeah.
Pretty much, yeah. Pretty survivable and of course
you can rank them up as well. So you get if you've got enough
models, then you get rank bonus on or you know, drop down from
the skies. We need rank bonus.
That's that's nasty. Yeah, they're definitely able to
handle. The war machine, that's for
sure. I can handle that.
I can't have a banner but. You know they're they're a.
Light. Infantry they could take out as
well quite easily, you know, as long as they're light in by.
Light. I mean, you know.
We're talking about units of 10. You know, a unit of 12 to 15
harpies could easily take out a unit of unit of 10 infantry.
So they are nasty harpies. They're really good.
Really good choice. Yeah.
Do you have any thoughts? On.
Harpies in particular, George. Yeah, it's I really.
Like the miniatures from? Trish, it's it's.
Because. It's also something which makes
the dark elves but special to have these fielding these beasts
on the on on the battlefield. And in fourth editions it's boss
more they had more this beast like character compared to later
editions. I know they are sort of a
divider. Because I know some people.
Don't like them, the 4th edition Harpies, but I didn't take more
time. Yeah, nice, but very different.
To what came. Before and what came after.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think you really.
Have to differentiate between that.
Because the the later the 6th edition harpies with we have a
very female yeah, they are more related to Greek mythology and
so we get the different spin. So it's yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think most of the voices which said odd it's 4th edition happy
suck. It's because they they come from
from year later editions when things have already changed.
I think 4th edition itself, it was people were happy with it.
Yeah, the. Three more.
Gargoyles. Yeah, three, 5th edition as
sorry, 4th edition. As well 5th and. 4th and 5th as
well. So there was obviously the
classic Margaret Thatcher. Yeah, Reagan, Reagan, Harpies
that came. Before as well.
So yeah, more humanoid, definitely.
Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, you, you certainly
wouldn't say. That the Margaret Thatcher one
was, you know, on a par with the 6th edition in the in the Noody
Loody. Kind of sense.
That the the Mike that one was not was not slanishy in any
other shape of you can you can make an argument that you know,
there was a slanish connection for the harpies of 6th edition,
you know, being a bit, but certainly not the the 4th ish
ones and not Reagan and and Thatcher from before.
No, but yeah, they are. They are definitely very.
Different. Looking models, yeah.
OK, so I think that was it for troops.
Yeah, maybe we can just go into monsters.
I don't know with this where we talked about the war Hydra, are
there any other choices that sticks out compared to other
armies? So do they have the full
complement standard? Yeah, well, it's dot Pegasus.
They got the dot Pegasus. But that is literally I think
there's there's no I think it's literally just a dark version of
the no pigs. I don't I don't think it has any
special rules. I don't.
OK, so they just put dark before it's.
Deeper paint that a quick check. I'll have a quick.
Check while you talk. Amongst yourselves.
Yeah. And of course, at that time.
Most armies could have most different kinds of monsters, so
yeah, that was and using the unridden.
Monsters. I don't think that.
Was a very popular show. It's I think it's kind of cool
to be able to do it. I don't think it was.
Of course you had the the danger of them running off.
That was, I guess the the problem with the unrated ones.
Did you use some George or was that always?
It's a I'm a I'm a big fan of the chimeras.
Yep. So it's there was also.
An. In in 4th edition, an unreleased
version, I think the the unridden.
Monsters. Of yeah, monsters in general
suffered a bit in 4th edition by the problem of the point of
sales, because it's you. They are too big for a blister
pack, so you just need to put them in the box.
And if you think about the releases, the release box types
in fourth. In 5th edition, all monsters
were mounted so and and chimera's suffered the chimera
problem. Where that's the right acid?
So so. It, it's, it's very difficult to
to, to release this, this kind of monster because it's, it,
it's yeah, you really struggle to transfer it into a mounted
option. And I think the, the war Hydra
suffered a bit the same. Yeah.
But we, we, we tried to overcome this with the war Hydra 'cause
we planned to put the the sorcerer on it.
And it's. It's it's.
I think the biggest unrealist model I'm aware of, it's, it's,
it's very it's, it's a fantastic piece of art from, from, from
Trish and from Ellie, the unreleased source of a Lord
writing. About Hydra.
But yeah, I'm also suffered by it was never released.
It's yeah, it's the same. So it's but but.
But this this was. Really a piece which had
everything you need to put in the box to to make it really a
box model. So it's you have, you have, you
have a beast, you have the rider, you have also the the the
giant banner poles with you can design the banners for him.
So it's there were really chances that they're good.
To make. This in one of our iconic box
models of 4th edition but it was never released so and it just
was I think yeah and Chimera's suffered yeah but from another
point of view because we we never get a right a right for it
and so this section is a bit limited to to the beasts which
were released as mounted sets yeah that's true there were for
some of the. 3rd Edition. Yeah, shows that you can do
usually pretty small, not much bigger than a horse, some of
them, but yeah, they they are available and I like them.
So I'm trying to get this man a second I've for my wool hydro.
I've picked up the. Round Panther?
Well, Hydra. Lovely model really.
Really nice model. I'll be using that one in my.
I think it's real. Is it real Palther?
Yeah, it's real palther. Gorgeous.
Very Serpentine heads. It's got some of even have got
like the the cobra hood coming out that's slightly different.
It's it's an amazing. Model.
It's lovely. You know, and and also again
harking back to 3rd edition and prior, you know, the yes, OK,
Brian answer would have wanted you to use Citadel miniatures
because it was his business. But it did say in the books
previously, you know, there are other manufacturers out there.
They wouldn't do that now, obviously, and they didn't in
the 3rd edition. There's even.
Mention of, you know. Other manufacturers, not
necessarily naming them, but saying, you know, all sorts of
manufacturers out there. And it was that practice, you
know, at that time because games workshops weren't everywhere and
mail order was a thing, but the Internet wasn't.
So you just use whatever models you could, so you know, whether
they were Games Workshop or not, use them.
So in that sense, because my Army is going to be kind of
straddling 3rd and 4th, I think using that War Hydra kind of
fits in with that ethic of, you know, that that mindset of, you
know, you use what you can source.
So I'm happy to understand it's it's a fantastic model.
I can't wait to get it painted. It's yeah, definitely worthwhile
owning and going to be a centrepiece to the Army for
sure. Yeah.
Will there be a lot of painting? I I go.
Down. The glue and baking soda root to
make it a more solid connection to pinning.
I I can never get pins to line up properly.
No that's my issue as well. I'm I'm having the.
It's I think it's it's 66 addition hydra and it's just so
much pinning. I'm not looking forward to it
and I have the same issue. They usually don't align 100%
and looks like it's and even if I even if I can't do that whole
a. Lot of paint on the end of the
pin, still doesn't allow by the time I'm done.
It's in the wrong. Place and then it doesn't.
You're not with a kink in the pin or something like that.
It doesn't work. I go down the baking.
Soda and and super glue root and try to make a solid bond that
way and use it to fill in gaps as well.
Like with the textured skin of the hydra.
I think it's going to pretty much mask the bobbly super glue
effect you end up with after using the you get away with it
and soda, yeah. Absolutely.
So that's that's my. Plan anyway and we'll see I'll
once I've painted it, I said that hopefully doing it at the
end of this year, if not starting next year, I'll post it
up. You guys can make your comment
whether it works or not, don't know we'll see.
Cool. One thing you did skip,
actually. We we skipped war machines,
don't there's a lot to we've already done.
But George. What about Cauldron of Blood
then? I think you've.
Seen you've got one of those painted up a cauldron of blood.
Or do I make that? Am I wrong there?
No, it's, it's it's it's, it's one of the.
Things I still have on my to do to do this.
Oh, OK. What do you think?
To it though, that's I'm I'm I'm.
Really addicted to what? A whole cane topic.
So it's it it it it comes later, it's in in so in in 6th edition
I, I get addicted to wet first was it it was doing the storm of
chaos thing and he have a pleasure culture risers and I I
started in team slanish because I forked OK all all this, this
this cane stuff was quite boring and.
Switched later with laughter Hellebrand and my my 6th edition
army is completely yeah, dedicated to Kane.
So it's and, but I always struggled to really set up
really good, yeah, miniatures for the for the, for the cutover
of blood. I I really like the, the design
of the 4th edition. It's quite simple.
I dislike it from the 6th edition.
The the stationary thing, which doesn't work well for me.
And it took a long time until September developed that, yeah,
mythical war machine that we know today for the 8th edition,
which where he, he really was able to bring everything
together, making this an iconic, really iconic model, which
really took a lot. Of.
Design elements from the 4th edition 1.
So it's I think Ellie did a great job there designing the
the, the the details and the miniatures in time.
And it was. It was a bit.
Late to the party, so it doesn't hit the the the main release.
I think it was White Dwarf 209. It was released alongside the
new High Elf released in in 5th edition when it makes it its
appearance. Yep, still to.
Find that minute that would be nice So in in the game, I mean
we said that dock and so our which also pretty nice yes, they
are. So how much better do they get
from? I'm not I'm not aware of the 4th
edition rules. So because having played, having
this, this cane list with two catrons, I played in the, in the
in, in in the later editions, that was really nasty because it
offers a lot of protection and additional damage output to your
troops. So it's yeah, two curtains, 1 is
a general and 1 is a better standard bureaus, different,
different banner of margaritas. So it's that's was really was
was was was really fun to play and.
Yeah, but. Yeah, not aware of for for the
different rules. Maybe Dave has a bit more into
it. Let's have a look.
I've not used 1 so. Shooting is between cauldron
keeper. OK, so one would be hitting the
keeper of the cauldron. So that's the character I'm
guessing two to three, the guardians 4 to 6 the cauldron.
So it's got a fair, you know, fair, fair bit of protection
there from shooting. OK, so we're back on this, the
debut, the. Short break to check out the
Cauldron of Blood. So which?
Shows we had 18 inches of the cauldron of blood.
First round of combat Triple their attacks, Double triple
their attacks We we remember that we.
Remember that which of euro we've helped yield on of riding
war hyper triple their attacks. That's that's just that's.
Nasty. Does it say it's just the troops
that does it or would the? Heroes as well.
It's just a witch. Else.
Yeah, yeah. Or which else?
And I, I will quantify that I'll actually put put a value on that
why that is the case. Because then the second rule is
that if a witch health is slain within 18 inches of the cauldron
of blood, they get a special 6 plus savings which of characters
survived with one wound remaining.
So it's confined that these rules cover.
Characters. As well.
Yeah. So how, how was it in 4th
edition? Was it?
Kept 10 attacks or ten were statistics or could it go above
the 10 statistics were? But.
Then again, you couldn't have a Dark Elf general, so therefore
the attacks would only go up to 9 because there was 3 attacks
tripled and then any additional weapons or additional weapons,
yeah. So 9 would have been the maximum
that they could get out of that. OK, Yep.
Plus, you know you plus. Look because the rest on stats.
If you say, I mean if you have a magic weapon, additional hand
weapon, that's on top of yeah, so it could get to roll more
than 9 attacks or. More attacks exactly, but your
stat line in effect would don't generate.
Up to 9 at maximum if you that's a bit weak, but OK.
Yeah. Oh yeah, that's.
Terrible. Useless.
Yes, 9 attacks. That's awful, Yeah.
That's the main thing, but. There is one slight downside OK,
and that is when they charge into combat.
With a cauldron. Of blood, it doesn't give impact
hits. Oh, OK, yeah, that's horrible.
You. Don't get the D6D6 plus 2O,
that's awful. Yeah, that's that's the only
downside is you don't. Receive that, Yeah, I think we
can live with that. Yeah, right.
So yeah, that's the rather short list of war machines.
That's boat floor, boat floor, boat floor.
Yeah, yeah, we did talked a bit about.
That before so that you. Want to?
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's.
I think also very very important unit you see in every.
Dark Elf army. And yeah, well, in most, most
cases, two of them and I think also one of the most common war
machines use. So it's.
Yeah, pretty. Solid.
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
Of course you don't. Need to have any skills?
In guest ranging or about basically skills to know that
you're in range maybe. But apart from that, it's just
go on and shoot and see things die.
The bane of Cabrio, of course. Plus you don't have any save,
right? So is that for the single bolt
or is it No both on the single bolt, Yeah, well, no safe.
And. One of the few.
Things where the hiles definitely win that argument on
the on the on the repeater bolt there's no limit on on them in
obviously you've got the maximum you can take in a 25% Yeah,
exactly. You've got that, but aside.
From that though. You know, there's with the
darker, I don't know if you see the edition that I've got that
causes this, but where I'm looking at this rule book here,
it's saying one per 10 darker of Warriors, Spearman, Crossman,
City Guard or Blackout Corsairs. Is that the same in my actual
book? Let's have a quick look.
Yeah, that was also some of the changes we made in the later
editions. At the beginning it was only
Corsairs and I think Warriors. Oh OK, so they widened the shows
you have? To have.
Corsairs. You don't have.
One, you know, for each. For each regiment of of 10 or
more dark Earth warriors or plague Earth courses, and this
was changed and it was also for 50 points.
I was 50 points then as well. OK.
At the early beginning, yeah. OK, so so they they.
They they're on a. Par then with the high elves in
that sense, but they are obviously restricted to, you
know, down to the troop types taking the repeater, whereas
with the high elves, that's my memory shaky.
Let's just check on that one and obviously.
At. At 50 points, they're an
absolute. Steal and at yeah points they're
still useful. So I think that's not not a bad
change to make them hundred points, 50 watts.
Yeah, they're they're they're a great piece of kit.
Yeah, yeah, 100%. They're fantastic.
Yep. Always.
You know, you pretty much always have something to.
Shoot. So get most of it and of course
48 inches of range, it's not really very limited.
You can hit lost all right, so. Special characters.
Witch King. Yeah, Witch King.
Start there Witch king. He's daddy of all darker.
Well, not literally there might be, but yeah, the, you know,
male kiss a nice a nice touch they put in with the back story
of the when they started developing the high elves and
just yeah, a great image. Shame, shame it never got the
actual model released in fourth because that that piece of
artwork is phenomenal. It's, it's I, I know from from
Ellen Merritt that he had at. At least at at the principal
chariot design in his drawer of of of unreleased stuff.
But it never got finished. And it's yeah, Malik could never
get. Dominiation.
So you don't actually have that miniature, do you?
Concept miniature. So I would, I would.
Really be interested. In in.
In how that how even the basic design look, because it's yeah,
it is. I'm thank God for being blessed
with some sculpting skills and definitely love to copy it and
and finish it in some way. Yeah.
But even no pictures exists. It's it's always difficult to
create something that from scratch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sure someone.
Will have a stab at. It at some.
Point maybe, but have to wait. All right, what's next on the
special? Character list.
Yeah, I think we we definitely have to talk about.
Rakaf and his Black Dragons as one of the most iconic models of
the 4th edition range. Yeah, I just finished building
the dragon. I only have. 1/2 a Rakaf.
I have the lower half so I don't have the full model actually,
but it's a cool one definitely. So I guess you have one of those
painted up? No, not yet.
So I I have painted. All these in in in it's very
early on me. I have painted.
So it's it's it's it's it's it's build it and it's it's still
waiting for for it's paint job. But I'm with this bigger
projects. I'm always struggling with the
bases. So I'm making a really a nice
base design which which covers my my theme and which is, yeah,
in the same degree of detail as the miniature itself.
It's always something which took you years.
For example, for my last base I built for my, my, my Sorcerer.
That was really a long, long process.
So it's these are always things which were a big hurdle.
Yeah, OK. Especially for bigger
miniatures. Yeah.
So that's definitely. Have to do to do this one, but
it's it's, it's it's, it's a very fantastic, fantastic model.
It's based on the on, on the S shaped dragon design from Trish.
The first one was the the the dragon she designed for the
Talisman expansion, the plastic, the plastic version and while
designing the plastic version, which is not a free up because
Medragon's so big, she did it as A2 up.
And while she designed that, she also did some production stand
in. They often did that for taking
pictures or but then for and this this.
That's that's why a metal. Version of it was produced and I
still have also that unreleased prototype dragon.
Yeah, I think I have two here lying around.
There are only two in. Existence.
No, it's it's. It's it's quite a lot.
And it's very, very. Funny you, you, you people sell
them on eBay don't knowing what it is.
So it's 11, but yeah, 11. I did.
I got by chance one selling that and said yeah here a dragon all
parts present or what a dragon needs and I got it relief keep
all little money and because people don't know what they're
selling and yeah and this this this one was the first it was
modified a couple of times with different heads.
There's also rumoured that there's an alternate black
dragon hat. So it's but I did haven't seen
it or have confirmation for that and or maybe it's also that that
they mean that from from a prototype, which is looks like
the the plastic version. So did the did the Talisman one
come before Imrich then I thought.
Imrich was the first one, yeah, but Imrich has a different kind
of dragon. You don't.
What do you mean? It's the classic S shape of it's
A. It's a S, yeah, yeah, but it.
Has the, IT, it, it, it has the metal.
And he has also a different type of scale.
Yeah, and thinner as well. He he's a thinner.
Dragon it's it's not as bulky as the dark of 1 for sure.
Yeah, yeah, OK, yeah. And I know some of the the big
Dragons. They might need a bit of
propping up. They might actually sag under
their own weight at some point. I don't know if it's the yeah,
that's the metal. That's the early days.
There was a change. In the metal.
So. It's between I think end of the
4th edition. Beginning of.
The 5th edition and you can see that nicely also on the studio
miniature of Rakat because when you take a look at the pictures
in by 12209 that we released the the good one of blood, you see
that they put a big stone under the the record miniature to
stabilize him because he's he was bended and.
You can also see him in. His bended downward position on
the bigger Army shots, which we did in advance of the 5th
edition applications. So let's get.
Better. In if with with the later white
metal, yeah, yeah, I recently had to do that with.
Baldos, my chaos dragon, he was touching ground after a while so
I had to. I had the same.
I had the same problem. With mine, so it's will be very
hard to fix that. Yeah, yeah, I put him up against
the Stonewall and. Pinned him too, so seems to work
alright. Yeah, OK.
So Raquel, nice model. Very very very also very iconic
1. With.
Without a model, but very nice that yeah, you you, you get that
character on a multicore. So it's also to to have that
aspect which the multicore also get its, its position in later
editions of the Warhammer Dark Elves.
So it's, it becomes it's own iconic piece of, of, of dark
elf. But yeah, it's.
Was. Introduced with Hellebron and
it's having I think she has general stats and also all the
which have characteristics which is very tough and also with a
black. With a black.
Sword, she's she's whiling. That's also, yeah, very, very
cheesy. Yeah.
I never. Used her but.
She looks pretty naughty, as you say.
OK, so what's more in the list? Marathi.
Yeah. Helbron.
Helbron's one on the. Mantico, then Marathi.
Was Dark Pegasus, whether the whether the the miniature origin
was space to be Marathi the the one they released or not, I
don't know Certainly there is a sore stress on a dark Pegasus.
I guess you I think she's related to it, but it's.
Yeah, but it may be also intended to to play her as
Marathi, but she was become more a generic character from from
the the box title stats, the the dark saucer is writing Dark Pigo
Zeus, and then there's the maybe.
Not more. Of the foot version, was that
one 6th edition? Yeah, but that, that that was
later. That was in 5th edition.
It was the the the application piece of Chris's Patrick.
So it's when when he was hired as a sculptor in his test phase.
And that's, that's a very nice story about it.
He shared on his Instagram. But it it was summer and it was
very, very hot, which makes it very difficult to work with the
green staff. And that's that's why he goes
into the conference rooms, which were cooled down for sculpting
and where he's he. Sculpted.
Moravi very close to the iconic artwork of Yeah yeah,
definitely. It's almost spitting image.
Yeah. And yeah, that's.
That's also also just this sculpt is of so much quality.
You really see that that effort and and and pain and maybe all
his hopes he he's into it. That makes this miniature that
special. Yeah.
I'm a little bit intimidated
starting painting that. One I have it.
But I should get at get on it. I have so.
Far I have painted 4 versions of her.
And. I think one further will follow
error, but it's it's one I sold with this first army a second
one. I I I traded it was part of a
deal for getting that unrealist Sorceress 1 one I converted for
for Golden demon project got me a silver trophy in Wyma single
2005 and there must be Yeah and. One I painted mostly black and
white for my 1st 6th edition army.
OK, cool. So it's I'm.
Really. Attached to this miniature, it's
made made me a big Chris Fitzpatrick fan.
Yeah, but you have one more lined up then for the.
I I I definitely. I want to, yeah.
I I. I still have pictures of all of
them and it's when I painted the fifth one for for my actual
army, it's it's I think it's time for lining them up.
Yep, that's looking forward to it.
Right. Will you?
Include one in your army. Date I.
Don't. Know it's not it's not really
going to be the look of the one that of the army.
I do. I'm probably going to be more
likely to do the classic dark elf sorcerer holding the orb
with a big cloak on to him. So the old, old one.
And also there's a I've got one up here.
I've got a few of this model. You probably can't see that very
well. Oh yeah, yeah, I know.
Which one that? Might as well he'll he'll be
alone, yeah. Absolutely.
He, well, he's the image of. Dark health sorcerer in the ally
list in the 3rd edition army book.
He was, he was the model they used for that drawing.
So yeah, they'll they'll be the ones I do.
I do have the plastic dark health sorceress from Talisman.
Was she, was she Intellisman? Oh yeah.
Yeah. Also.
The Dracon's Tower expansion. Yeah, so I've.
Got that one as well. I may do, but again.
Doesn't really fit the the look of the stuff I'm going for.
But you know, just to get them. Painted up though, because it is
a nice model, then maybe I'll do that just as a kind of stand
alone piece. And you never know, I might
eventually decide I want to. Collect the 4th edition.
Dark Elf army as well. I've got a lot to do before
then. I've got a, you know, my, my
schedule for Warhammer I'll be painting is probably a bit too
full to get on to that gesture. I need to do my my yeah, third
edition, dark old farmy first. Maybe I'll do 4th as a complete
collector. Well, not complete entirely, but
you know, as as from a collection point of view.
But normally gaming wise, I'd go with the with the 3rd edition,
an earlier one, because that's just the the aesthetic I prefer.
Cool. And then we have What's the?
Name Quran. Quran.
Yeah, sort of a hero special.
Character. Type, I think.
Yeah, it's also a bit. Bit which came a bit from the
elite tube type. So you have.
The current for the Black Guard, you have two lorries.
For the Executioners, you have the special assassin Shadow
Blade. Yeah, I think that's also.
Something that. Differs from the earlier ones
where they didn't really sort of create these special characters
specifically for units. Maybe they didn't some cases,
but for Scaven's a good example of them doing that, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, because you want for each clan.
Type so it's. Kind of.
But for Empire for example, you don't really have that.
In that sense, I think so. Yeah, that's pretty good.
The the other interesting thing about the.
Dark Hill farming actually is. A lot of the magic items they
give out are just bog standard ones from Battle Magic.
Yeah, they're one. They're not, you know.
In the other army. Books, you know, when you've
seen magic eyes being given, they are unique to that
character. Yeah.
Yeah, there's a few of those with the dark.
Elf characters, but mostly. You know you're looking at
Armour Fortune Enchanted Shield Army Charakayan they've
installed. Ogg standard magic items that
anyone can take. There's very few that, I mean,
obviously you've got executions, acts, you've got Melkif's items.
There's one or two here or there that are unique, but generally
speaking, they're just magic items throughout the magic from
the well. I'm a Battle Magic box set.
I'll just find that interesting. Sorry.
Chuck that in there. Yeah.
No. That's true.
Solid. So I guess neither of those
actually had any models released, did they?
Corano Tolaris? No, but I've seen you're
Tolaris, George, Right. You made one.
Yeah, that's which I sculpted. It it was the first miniature I
really sculpted nearly completely of green staff.
It was also. Yeah, it's I I used.
I used the head of Harcourt heart rhythm to to yeah.
Skip it part. Sculpting a face?
Yeah. Nobody.
I I really like that one. You should.
You don't have it there? No, no, I it's, it was also sold
with that first. Hour.
Wow, it's too bad. Yeah.
That was a really nice. Personal sculpt, my word, but.
It's it's it's. Especially these, these first
things are sometimes very hardly to look at after, yeah, but I
think being a bit more different.
Skills. It was very nice.
I I also sculpted. That that that which else from
Mark Eben's artwork. But I I sculpted very.
Closely to. To artwork and and this one is
really one I'm I'm I'm having here around and she was as as
part of a collectors group it was intended to be released as a
as a group miniature but Kim's workshop interfered at that time
and I am yeah yeah looking at that Skype today it's not that
brilliant especially compared to things I did later but yeah it
was it's what part of its time and it's and you painted one of
the castings and it's also having still the the green hero
but that's Tulare's one it's yeah it's in the ice yeah good
hands yeah so we're going to make a.
New one. Sure, it's I, I.
Already I already. Started to to convert and sculpt
more so it's don't know if you have seen my my blackguard
command. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So it's.
And I would definitely love. To.
To sculpt the the character or convert them.
So it's, yeah, it's meanwhile getting more and more into this
Ellie Morrison sculpting sky. And I also talking with him
frequently about the sculpting. So he's he's.
Really a great teacher and pushing things into the right
direction Yeah, it's a it's a lot of fun.
So I definitely would love to give some of of of abandoned the
dark. Of.
A miniature, yeah, and looking forward to.
Also also to. Yeah, look into how, how, how,
how it would have looked so especially with the restrictions
of of of sculpting head and the 4th edition, OK.
Looking forward to see that eventually.
And then we have last one, it's Shatterblade and.
He also didn't have. An initiative D not in fourth.
No, it's it. Got it.
Got one in 8th. Edition the the plastic version,
but I think it's. Yeah, there was.
Never a miniature for it. It was very, very.
Funny in in in 6th edition, we run a competition in the studio,
the Dark Elf character competition.
And you have to. You were able to.
To. Send you pictures of your
converted Dark Elves and with a chance of winning a signed copy
of your of the 6th edition army book and I.
Had because. I had in in, in this, in this
former army, I had all characters converted.
I had one for Hellebron. I had one for Tularis and I also
had one for for Shadowblade and also for Curran and and it's and
I had really this very nice, very big model for Hellebron and
I thought, OK, if I had chances with winning something, I
definitely with that on, but I won with Shadowblade.
Oh, excellent. So you do have a signed copy of.
The on book then. I have.
Yeah, from, from, from. 6
edition studio team around K4, but I have this and yeah, and I
I still have the this is one of the mini issues.
I didn't I didn't give away. It was a conversion of Brian
Nelson's Anwar the the sort of tie light and it's.
It's very small conversion. I just changed the scale male
against the chain male and sculpted him some some kind of
scarf before face and very nice nice.
Venetian conversion. For for Shadow Blade and yeah,
it took a win. Excellent and.
As you said, Dave, he also has the a couple of standard medic
items that were there before moment potion of strength.
So yeah, he has to die to get full effect from him.
Yeah. He.
I say to make that big a hole. He's only got 2 wounds.
He's not like a character with a, you know, huge, huge wound
stat and and you can't do with him.
But funny enough, I I was just looking at not, I said not.
Really. About this guy.
But that you could do pull a nasty one with the Heart of Woe
in that there's a there's a magic item in Chronicles of War
called Lifestone of Ashrae. Switch wounds statistics.
So if you were to, if you were to switch wounds.
With some nasty, big nasty. Then it's got lots and lots of
wounds you can make slamming trees or something.
Yeah, yeah, Atomic. Form but you actually have to
die as well so that's the you do yeah absolutely, but that's why
maybe you know your. Two magic items are Lifestyle of
Ashraaz and Heart of Woe, nothing else.
So you intend on dying? Yeah, so did the.
The heart of over. The portion of strength, or is
it the basic strength statistics for the strength of the horror
bow? Do you?
Oh wow, now. Oh gosh.
There are ways then heart will just place thousands.
Of all models. With the radius even to the
bearer's original number of wounds, sustain one attack hit
with a strength equal to the bearer's strength plus D6.
OK, but it doesn't say original strength.
Then so you could no true, so you could be very unscrupulous.
Take your potion of strength and add D6.
Yeah, that that that would be very nasty.
So seven, Yeah, you're looking at strength.
I think that would. Possibly would cap.
At strength 10, but although strength. 4, so yeah, 4 + 3.
Seven, yeah. So D6, yeah, more than 50%
chance of reaching 10 at least. Yeah, so.
So there are ways you could make it nastier.
Yes, yes, probably not going to get you much friends, but.
Could be done right so we. Don't have too much.
Time left, so yes, quickly, what's your favorite special
character for Dark Elves? George, if you begin, Yeah.
Hello, Bron. Hello, Bron.
It's yeah. It's I.
I make. I made her one of my big
projects in in 6th edition and re sculpted completely the the
the Montecore. Yes, sculpting in armored
Montecore, jumping from a Cliff and she's upon.
So it's one of my most iconic miniatures.
I've wondered in I'm a monsters. So it's definitely hella broad.
Yeah, cool. And yeah, I have seen pictures
of that. 1 is really awesome, so if you haven't listened us,
check it out. Dave, which is your special dark
elf. Oh wow, Yeah, he's got to be
Malekith. He's, you know.
He's iconic. He's, you know, described a lot
in the high off book. And of course there's the battle
for Neville playing against and techies, you know, his
involvement in that. So yeah, for me he's he's just
iconically Dark elf. And of course, mythology.
Forget. Warhammer, you know.
Mythology, the character of Melcheth is Nordic mythology,
being a dark elf, so that's obviously where they nicked the
name from and the fact he's a dark elf.
So yeah, for me, Melcheth, there's there's no, no contender
there for me other than him. Use my tears.
Kind of like Shadowblade also I think.
He was also featuring some of the.
Higher. Stories I remember those duck
and he seemed like a really nasty chap to face.
So I was had a little bit of things for Shadowblade right.
So we're actually running out of time.
We done 2 1/2 hours. So solid, solid episode.
And thank you so much George. Excellent insight that we would
not have been able to to give our listeners without you, no.
Absolutely, I glad. You enjoyed it?
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
And you're. Most.
Welcome to join us for some of the other ones if you want and
we need to find your wooded counterpart.
I don't know if we're going to find one I might have to drag my
brother into. It although he's more 3rd
edition anyone else but yeah well, I'll I'll put the call out
and see if anyone anyone's wood elven expert in the yeah yeah I.
Think it's going to be hard for us?
To find one on on this. Level, but it would be nice.
And of course, if you haven't watched or checked out George's
painting, you definitely should. I think we should add some links
in the episode. So amazing stuff, right?
So that.