I stand here atop the ziggurat of Zanagrand, the place of fire
and desolation. From where I stand, I can gaze
across the plains of Zadak, and what I see is pleasing to my
eyes. It is forever dark under the
sun. Here at the heart of the world,
the smell of sulphur and of burning oil fills the air.
The cracking of whips and the wailing of the slaves drowns out
the clatter of machinery. This is the future.
One day hush. It shall rise from his slumber
and trample the world beneath his brazen hooves.
The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain
shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Tsar to toil for the
greater glory of Harshut, and all will be blessed darkness
from the prophecies of Astrogoth, the High Priest of
Harshut. Right.
So welcome to this ninth session of the Empire Deep.
Oh sorry, Warhammer Deep types, it's been almost a year now.
We started in August, I think. Day.
Yep, Yep. So time flies and today we
reached the final action on the book.
We might do a few follow up episodes on the White Book and
maybe another one, but today it's all about scarce dwarfs and
we have a guest today, Ted, as our expert Chaos Dwarf
collector, player and painter. So maybe if you can just tell a
little bit about yourself, Ted, your involvement in the hobby,
and how you got into Chaos Dwarf specifically.
Well hi yes Ted is my name and I'm from Sweden as you probably
can hear by by accent. So my Warhammer journey started
in back in 1996 with the release of the 5th edition Warm Fantasy.
My brother has had just moved to the nearest town and just close
to where he lived was a small shop that had Warhammer stuff.
It also had electric guitars and hockey trading cards.
So it was kind of an eclectic place, if you.
Yeah, it was very cool. Lots of cool older rocker guys
with leather jackets hanging. Yeah, it was great.
Did you fit into that category as well?
No, I was just 15 at the time, so I was just a kid.
So no, I was more of a nerdy, nerdy guy.
Yeah. So, well, he started hanging out
in that shop and he found out about Warhammer and well, we, he
introduced me to it and we bought the 5th edition starter
box together and he took the Britannians and I got Listen
Man, Yeah. And we played a few games, but I
never really connected with Listen Man at that time.
But I did later, but that's another story.
But so I started collecting orcs and goblins.
So I played with them against his Britannians.
And yeah, I lost a lot, as you can imagine.
The Britannians were were very powerful at the time.
Yeah. So, and then I started with Dark
Hills, actually collected a bit of those and then, well, we kind
of lost interest after a while. And when the 6th edition came
out, I actually switched over to 40K.
So I started playing that with my cousin and we yeah, did that
for a few years. So, and then I guess I kind of
got out of the hobby around 2008 or 9 or something like that.
But I, I never really left. But I was less into it by then.
And then when Age of Sigma rolled around in 2015, I, I felt
a bit sad that before my fan fantasy was dying.
And then I thought, yeah, maybe I should get back into it and
collect some old armies again. And well, that's when Chaos
Dwarfs was one of the armies I returned to.
I kind of always liked the look of them, even if I I never got
any back in the 90s. So.
I started. Yeah, back in 2015, were they
already like a costly only or were they still available little
reasonable. I mean, they weren't like cheap
or anything, but they were, I mean, pretty reasonable.
You could still find deals. I remember I picked up a great
Taurus new inbox for €30 on eBay.
I mean, that's. I think it's more like 300 now
if you want. Yeah, So, yeah.
And I mean, I, I picked up a few figures there, here and there.
And I mean, slowly it became the army I have today.
But I mean, now the prices are crazy.
So I I don't think I could do it now.
No, you definitely need to make a real investment if you want to
KS 4. Finally, genuine KS, no problem.
There are other ways of course, but yeah.
OK, so yeah, interesting to hear your story.
I think we all have somewhat similar, although it depends of
course when we got into it and how much we were playing during
the years up until now. So do you still have any of your
other armies? I know you have the some works
and stuff but have you kept all your old armies or?
Yes, I have most of my works from back in the day, and I also
have my dark house, my 4th edition Army that I'm planning
to repaint someday to improve upon my 90s paint job.
Yeah, and I have a few other armies, this one 40K.
And yeah, the Lizardman army I'm working on as well, but that's
more of a 6th, 7th edition. So you're able to keep basic for
a while longer if you want to paint.
I don't think I will run out anytime soon.
Yeah, I think that's also something that we share most of
us. OK, excellent.
So as usual, we going back a little bit in time and when we
do that we look to our expert of the really old days, Dave.
So what do you know and what can you tell us about the KS dwarfs
in 3rd edition? I guess?
Yes, you are experts. A loose title.
So the 4th as you cast Dwarf is kind of an odd beast in the they
did exist before, but they were little chaos warriors if that
sounds rude to them, but that's in effect what they were.
They were. They were dwarfs that were
turned during their lives to Chaos, whereas the Castorfs of
4th edition were born castorfs. They became like they became
girls at some point and then their ancestry became Chaos
Dwarves and then they were a race of Chaos dwarves.
So slightly different. OK so there were never any like
Chaos Dwarf nation in 3rd edition, no.
No, no, they were just dwarfs that well, they may be.
It was never named, it was never mentioned, it was never brought
up. Well, the part of the Chaos
Army. Yeah, the part of Chaos army.
So yeah, you know, well, so in Warhammer armies, no, you
couldn't. However, with the big orange
book of third edition, you could make whatever army you wanted if
you didn't use the army book. Yeah.
So kind of like you can with with 4th edition, your orange
book of 4th edition. Yeah but armies came out after
the original. Well not the original but after
third edition. So the idea was really you
either use ravening hordes from second edition or you just made
your armies up in 3rd edition up until the point they brought
Warhammer armies out. OK.
So you could, yeah, you can have an army of cast talks if you
wanted. You just used the the perfectly
valid rules for making your own army up in in.
But what was that? Did you have choice of many
units or was it just basically? No, you made you're not.
You make enough for that. You just invent, you know, you
always you know, and that's kind of the way that the third
edition worked anyway is until Warhammer armies came out, you
just made elite units. You just take a basic of that
race and then add on whether they were plus one elite, +2
elite, plus 3 elite or +4 elite. And each one of those elites
meant a different addition to stats and they stacked.
The first one would be say plus one to weapon skill.
That'd be a + 1 elite +2 elite. I think was was an extra point
of was either initiative or I think it was initiative.
And then every every sort of elite level that you put on
them, they'd get that bonus plus that levels.
You know, the previous plus that levels, But until you got to +4
where you got 2 attacks, they had no names.
They were just cursed Orson you give them, you know, you just
call them wherever you want to. And then Warhammer armies came
out and they were in the Chaos allies list.
So so you so war armies, you had the main army lists, you had a
section then of allies and a section of mercenaries from
different races. OK.
And the Chaos allies list could also be taken by Chaos wasn't
just so Chaos could have Chaos allies in effect.
OK, It's not just other races. You could have Chaos allies and
in those lists allowed you to take Chaos Goblins, which was
interesting, which were just basically goblins that had
succumbed to chaos. And you could also then take
Chaos Dwarf units and they just basically had warriors,
berserkers, which were their version of slayers.
You could have Chaos Dwarf Artery as well.
There was a mortar. I'll just go down.
I just I didn't open up the file.
Hold on, just bear with me. Just remind me.
Just going there. But interesting through through
white dwarf. They also really two other items
for for cowstwarfs, and that was there was chaos Dwarf crossed by
men and chaos. There was a cowstwarf swerve
gun, kind of like a zeal. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, there was a bazooka as well for them, which I think
morphed into the Death Rocket. Yeah.
And then the mortar, obviously eventually it was a very small
mortar, but he eventually I guess morphed into the Earth
Shaker Canon because really, actually cannon is a mortar.
It's not really a a cannon, is it?
And then they had this really weird, these really weird war
machines that were pushed by cast wolf boar centers.
They weren't tenderizer Tenderizer.
There was a Juggernaut as well, and they were all pushed by,
there was a tenderizer juggernaut.
There's another one as well. I can't remember the other one,
but they're basically just these, if you kind of imagine,
you know, those sort of toys used to get that used to pull
back and push forward and then they'd go on their own.
But also sometimes they'd have like a fighting action.
It was that sort of ideas. The ball centres were pushing
these things along and the axle of the wheels was yeah, making
the weapons go. So, yeah.
So there was, there was one that did bashing and one that did
slicing basically. And they're quite cool.
You know, it was, it was a nice little thing.
And then also in Realms of Chaos, the first book, the
Slaves to Darkness. Yeah, the reddish orange one.
Depending on how old the book is, it's probably orange now.
They had Chaos horses being part of the Korn army.
They weren't part of any other army.
Although you could have character characters in other
armies because Chaos characters in rounds of Chaos were just all
over the place. They'd be absolutely.
Yeah. You know, you could have a cold
1 character. That's that's how weird it was.
Yeah, exactly. Completely random, but
Kerstort's as a as a included in in an army in the list was corn.
Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, they portrayed us angry
and buggers so. Yeah, well, and also the the
development that dwarfs didn't have magic, it kind of fits that
as well, that narrative. So.
And obviously they decided then to go for a different direction.
I'd always in my head, maybe I'm leaping my head here too much,
but in my head I'd always assumed that Chaos Force were an
indication the the the 4th issue in councils were an indication
that Brian was no longer involved in the business because
there's such a stark contrast to what councils were in 3rd.
But no, it turns out he was actually heavily involved in the
development of them. He he'd left the business, but
he was still being retained as a consultant.
Yeah, and I know there's some interview, I don't remember
who's holding it, but where he kept pushing for the bigger
hats. And yeah.
Bigger hats, bigger hats, bigger weapons, bigger hats.
Yeah, the various, they sort of thought, OK, we've got to go
overboard. So we keeping quiet now as he
said. Oh yeah, but.
I think that's a really interesting insight, because I'd
always assumed the more cartoonish look of stuff was the
departure from Brian's attitude to things.
And he's listed as a game design consultant in the book, so he
was involved. Oh, heavily, heavily.
It was, it was a project he initiated.
So they were initiated probably during third.
But you know, it's a really, really cool insight into what,
you know, Everyone I've done, everyone, certainly myself and
those that I'd spoken to. But at things like Boyle and old
Hammer events, if they Brian's there, we could have asked him.
Well, he's not anymore obviously, but he was there.
We could have asked him, but we'd always just assumed that it
was a complete departure from his attitude towards stuff and
it wasn't it actually. He was evolved in all of that,
which is a massive insight. And yes, the sign you talked
earlier about them being small KS wars.
And I think there are actually models that are in pairs.
There's a Chaos Warrior, and then there's an identical tiny
KS Warrior. Whether they're released at the
same time or they were a later edition, I don't know.
There are people out there that would definitely be able to
answer that question. I'm not sure.
But yeah, it's a very different time.
It's a very different look of Curse.
And I said I'm perfectly happy for the two to exist in the
Wuhan world at the same time. So you've got those that are a
race of chaos to wolves, and that's your big hats.
Then you've got those that have that have turned to chaos, you
know, same as a human would, you know, turn the, you know, take
them for me, say a warrior from the from your beloved empire and
say it's returned to chaos. Never happened.
Would it, you know, so yeah, no, I think there's room for both of
them in the world. And I love both versions.
I've I've I've only just kind of now, so I wouldn't say only, but
I I kind of had a love hate relationship with them.
They were a guilty secret for a while.
The the the cat cast also like them, but now I'm happy to
openly say I like both. Yeah, I think.
So yeah. And back then, did you play or
play against them? Did you encounter them as an
army? Not really.
Not really, because they were kind of just an offshoot that
people didn't really use that much of.
Because if you think about it, I mean, don't get wrong, Chaos
armies back then did have missile troops.
Yeah. So you could you could have
thugs with bows, crossbows and pistols.
And you could even give Chaos marauders, which at the time
were lesser Chaos warriors. They weren't the marauders of
5th edition and onwards. You give them crossbows as well,
which is crazy because they're very expensive.
So you what you do wasting But but so they did have missile
troops. But really the, the, the
principle for Chaos has always been get forward into combat as
quick as you can. So Chaos Dwarfs moving at 3
inches is maybe not the best, but then again, you've also got
chaos worries would have heavy armour and shield.
So they're probably moving at 3 inches.
So I guess actually it makes sense.
I've never really thought about it that much.
But no, I, I only really in 3rd edition.
I only really ever played my brother and we didn't have any.
So it's I have since seen them. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, right. So and then they didn't have any
representation in the White Book rights, did they?
No 4th edition. No, I don't think they were.
I don't think they were even in the chaos list off the top lad.
No, I didn't. Yeah.
So there wasn't much going on and then?
But there was do you know what there was?
There was a Chaos Dwarf big hat picture in the chaos in the in
the rule book, in the orange rule book for four.
No one queried what the hell it was, though.
There's none among none amongst my friends.
No one said what's this so. That's the first representation
of the. Yeah, I think it was a Blanche
picture. Yeah, I think it was a Blanche
picture in, in, in the book. And no.
One came, yeah. So the seeds were there for
sure. You know, he'd obviously done
the concept art for them. It's on page 28.
I found it. Yeah, yeah.
No one ever went, oh, what's this?
If they did not, not that very bad.
There also wasn't the Internet. So I'm talking about a very
small base of people that are basing that, you know,
scientific answer on. That image is actually very
close to how they ended up later, so it's must be one of
the design artwork, yes? Yeah.
Good. Observation.
The White Book for sure. But I guess then they started
dropping some articles. Do we know about when the first
one came? The first one.
Yes, it was in issue 161 and that was May 1993.
And that's just the background and the best theory.
So that's quite early actually. It's about when, I don't know,
was it books or something came up to around there maybe?
It was round about, Yeah, it was round about the, the IT was, I
think it was between the, the orc and the dwarf release.
So in fact, the 22 dwarf in effect, the two dwarf on races
as it were released around about the same time.
It's interesting. I seem to remember, and I might
be, I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I seem to
remember that there was the previous issue to that, to the
one where they released the rules.
I seen there was a on the back cover.
There was a battle scene of Kerstals versus Hiles where it
might have been that same issue. I can't remember and be, but I,
and again, I'm not be inventing things for for the sake of
telling a good story here in my head, but in my head, I remember
that seeing that picture was really intriguing.
What are these? And then the next month, you
know, it drops and and you see their cursors.
I seem to I think. It's is this one.
Yeah. Is that the same issue?
The same issue is 165 I'm. Inventing it then?
Yeah. No, I'm inventing it.
And when that one came out, did they sort of explain how they
were going to introduce it? Did they talk anything about the
normally book or did they just talk?
About just say about there was there was no, there was no
stated plan to release a book for them at that point.
But the book came out much later or somewhat later.
Yeah, yeah. So it would be interesting to
know how. December 94.
Yeah, so it's the year and a half after at least.
It was during the gathering of my campaign They.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I think it was
released in conjunction with the battle report they did with the
Drakenoff Gap one. Or is the month before they
released it and then they did the battle report.
I can't remember. It was roundabout.
Then they released the book. So has anyone heard any insight
about how or why it came about that they differed from the
other races? Why they didn't release a normal
army book? Why they want this route?
Maybe that's a question for. You it may be something to do
with what would later be called IP.
So maybe because Brian was it might be because Brian was
involved with them the they can maybe some something legally
they couldn't release them as a games work, Games Workshop,
Games Workshop product, if that makes sense, a full thing of
their brand. Maybe there was something
because he was a consultant on the they had to go through White
Dwarf, because that's whether I don't know.
I'm again I'm venting speculation.
Yeah. Does anyone have any other ideas
or about anything? No, no.
It's a Mr. to dissolve them, I guess.
And you know, in the end, maybe no one really knows.
It's been lost in time, but. Yeah.
Maybe it was just, maybe you just suggested to do it that way
and it happened that way, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
It was a very complete relief as well.
Like it's as exhaustive as there's a racist, so there's no
reason why not. Sometimes it will hard to bake
stuff but yeah it was fully baked.
Yeah, yeah. I mean the end result that we're
going to going to next the 4th edition book.
I mean, it doesn't differ that much from the other books.
In the end, it's quite similar, maybe a little bit, not the most
the biggest army list, but still a very similar product.
I. Mean you've got spells, you've
got quite a lot of stuff. I think.
I don't know the problems I need liking is the special
characters. To be fair, the the the more and
more the army books were released, the more similar it is
to them in the sense that by the time he gets like scathing and
undead, you almost don't need to buy the army book because a lot
of the stuff printed by dwarf. And and that's in fact what the
Castor Fabulous list is or it's kind of it's kind of a synergy
going on there in actual fact. I don't know if any of you
checked whether they are, but I think it's exactly the same.
Yeah, yeah. List wise, yeah.
They they add in the the sneaky gits, they add that in because
that's. Not the special character.
Because that came out later and and the.
Special character? Yeah, they were.
They were in White Dwarf, the special.
Just try Glass. Words.
Yeah, so they add a little bit. So it's not straight out of
White Dwarf 100% there's. A few extra things and maybe
some few pictures. Yeah, Astra got was actually in
White Dwarf. Yeah, 185, but that's the only
one. Yeah, but that's after the the
release of the book, isn't it? That one.
Yeah, it was in 95. Yeah.
Oh, OK. So that was.
I was reading Matt Matt just on Ted before we started the The
book was never released in France.
We only ever had. The.
Lists. It.
Was released in White Dwarf, You know #4 that's one of the very
first ones in June, July 93. At the pinnacle of their city is
the Temple of Hashat, the Father of Darkness.
Within the temple, it's guardians perform bloodthirsty
rites. Throwing captives into cauldrons
of boiling lead to the echoing laughter of the Chaos Dwarf
Sorcerers. On top of the temple stands the
hollow iron statue of Hashut, whose belly contains A blazing
furnace so that the God glows bright red with fiery heat.
From the Journal of Marcus Trevor.
Right. So we're back for the second
run, the deep type, and we will get into the actual army book or
the White dwarf percent book. So I guess you all have it.
I only have APDF version of it. So yeah.
So beginning with the background, they as we talked
about before, they got a sort of brand new description compared
to what they had in in 3rd edition when they were small KS
wolves, they were KS warriors and now they have a nation.
So anyone want to share the short version of the KS Wolf
lore? What were they about?
Yeah, I mean, I can share the the short version, not pun
intended. It's well it was in the the
before times when the dwarfs started moving N along the
world's edge mountains. Some of the dwarfs the most
adventurous or foolhardy, as it says in the book, they turned
east and then moved into the dark lands.
And then the was the coming of chaos and the world was swept up
in chaos invasions and the winds of magic blew all over the
place. So the the dwarfs of the West
fought the eastern dwarfs that they were lost and killed.
But that was not the case because as you know dwarfs are
very resistant to magic. So they were in instead, mutated
slightly, they got sharp teeth. And yeah, that was probably the
only physical change. And they formed their own
civilization in the Dark Lands. They built a great city called
Saran Lagrund or something like that.
And that's actually the only settlement they have, as it says
in the book. So they only have one city they
live in. And yeah, they started
worshipping a minor chaos God called Hashut, the father of
Darkness. And yeah, they started using
magic and they started working with the Greenskins.
Or, well, they enslaved them and used them as servants and
workers. And yeah, so they they created
an A unique civilization of their own.
Yeah. Excellent.
And when you look at the sort of the stacks of them, I think
there's a very clear sort of Babylonian Sumerian, yeah.
Syrian, Yeah. Assyrian or Babylonian?
Yeah. It's worth mentioning.
The. The the curse of the sorcerers
as well turn to stone when they practice magic for too long, and
they are the ones credited with creating the black ox.
Yeah, yeah. So maybe someone at TW like that
historical area and wanted to introduce a bit of that, Who
knows, but. Yeah, I can recommend the
interview with, as we mentioned for Rick Priestly and Alan
Perry, it's on YouTube. So if you search Chaos Dwarfs,
Rick Priestly, you should should find it.
So it seems like there it was Brian Ansel who wanted the the
imagery of the, yeah, Mesopotamian, Assyrian imagery.
And. Then we went to Alan Parry to
sculpt the range. So I I think Alan did nearly
everything with some help from Norman Swales on the war
machines, but otherwise I think Alan did everything.
Yeah, it's a good interview. So, OK, so if we're getting to
the actual list, you feel they start with the the sort of
standard characters. Maybe maybe we can have a little
word about the battle report. It's the classic one with the
Isles with all like the the right units from the the chaos
towards taking part like the lamassu, the Taurus, the earth
shaker, the centaurs. It's very entertaining game.
It's. It's very obviously one of the
advert ones, isn't it? It is very obviously, you know,
he took everything he possibly could that had painted up.
And yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's certainly a showcase.
And I think they won as well. Did they?
Yeah, they did. Yeah.
Yeah, I. Think that Gary Morley, who
placed the chaos towards, said in one of the interviews that,
well, it was sort of made-up the battle report so that the case
to us would win. But, well, I don't know if it's
the truth. What?
Yeah, like the sort of how the battle ports were actually
played out. So I had some different versions
of those if they played it as they came or if they actually
just sort of directed everything to get the result they.
Were I think they mentioned they played a couple of test games
and then yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, I know there's the where they said that the first
game to 1 sided result and they had to do it again because it's
really show well. So maybe a combination of that,
but yeah. There's a very cool there was a
very cool duel between a high high L high L Florida and
Griffin and the the lamas SUS also.
Yeah, I've got no idea how that was it as long as it did.
That should be over very quickly, that duel.
Yeah, it's a good one. And we talked a little bit about
that before we just started, me and Ted, that they were featured
quite heavily in the White Wolf battle, reports the UK's Wolves.
Yeah, it was actually 55 Battle reports during 4th edition, so
that's quite a lot. Yeah.
So they were very popular in that sense and I don't know,
maybe someone liked to play them or they wanted to showcase the
army for whatever reason. But yeah, it's an interesting
observation. It might be the other way
around, that no one bought them. There's these guys as well.
It very much divided the fan base at the time because of that
stark change and because it was very cartoony.
So it was kind of you either loved them or you hated them at
the time. So it could have been simply,
you know, trying to generate interest.
Yeah. And I mean we obviously I don't
think there's any kind of sales numbers anywhere, but suppose
the reason why they are quite expensive on how to get today is
that they weren't selling well back in the days that there's
not that many miniatures in circulation so well.
They were. They were, you know, until they
brought out the Castelf Warrior. Well, no, plastics weren't
there. I mean, there was the Black
Hawk, I guess, as well the, the plasma.
I don't think those sold sold particularly well.
Plastic Black Hawk because it was, it's not a natural pose
that Black Hawk's in, is it? So it's one race.
I mean, having a mixture of poses.
What? But having that kind of thing
just really just doesn't quite work.
It's like the gym class, an IOB class or something.
I I just painted the whole unit so I I know that goes in and
out. Yeah, I I've got quite a few in
a unit of castles. It's really not castles, sorry.
Black Hawks dotted around to break up the you know, the other
models as well and it works that way and the and the plastic
castle that works because he's a natural pose.
He's kind of just stood to attention in effect.
But you know, you're you're paying a lot of money for
hobgoblin who's worth very little.
I say a lot of money. It's still the same as any other
race. But you know, if you buy a
packet of dwarfs, that's more points than a packet of goblins.
And you're saying playing virtually, Sorry, hobgoblins
paying virtually the same because they because goblins.
At least you've got an extra goblin in the packet getting the
blister. Yeah.
Hobgoblins. You didn't.
It was the same number as you'd get in the council.
So why would you buy hobgoblins? Yeah.
You know, yes, OK to have them, but we're back in the day with
kids trying to get most bang for a buck.
Yeah, of course, of course. So you're probably not going to
buy that many metal hobgoblins. So I think there's that involved
in it as well. Yeah, probably a combination of
factors, but yeah, probably not the most popular only at the
time. Yeah, nostalgic race, isn't it?
It's looking back fondly and wanting them because you haven't
got them. Yeah.
Yeah, I one of the few armies I have not started at all, but
maybe one day, who knows. But as Ted said, going into it
now, buying an entire castle for me, that's going to be there,
so. Well, that that's where you get
into the realm of the 3D printing stuff, isn't it?
And the designers who have done stuff that's very similar.
Yes. Very, very similar, but not
quite the same. Which almost gets you that right
hit. It's not quite there because
it's not the original models, but it's so close that you know
you you can say right? These will do until I can get
around to getting a problem. Yeah, exactly.
Win lottery or whatever you know come across.
Yeah. And I mean, depending on what
you're actually aiming for, if you want the 100% genuine thing,
then that's you want. But obviously it's there's room
for other solutions that would work perfectly well if that's
what you want, right? So should we get into the list
then? Maybe.
So as producer general, yes, the standard one, but they actually
have two choices there. That's a little bit.
Not everyone has that one, but you can actually have your
sorcerer Lord as a general. Who else does?
Are there any that are this game and can have a grace here as a
general? No, no.
Well, obviously there's undead that have a choice of three
different generals, but aside from that, it's, it's a Lord
option for, for everybody. I say a hero Lord option.
Obviously you've got multiple different hero Lord options for,
for goblins and, and orcs. But overall it's yeah, it's got
to be a fighting general, as it were, as opposed to a wizard
general, which is weird because I, I mean, I'm but happy if if
someone were to say to me, you know, when I have wizard as my
general, I've not got an issue with that.
No, I I don't know if there's, if there's points fact in
factored in for the, you know, for being a general to a Lord.
I don't know. No, it's the same points cost as
a a sorcerer Lord. So what means for for if?
I mean a. Lord for every single race, the
points cost they've worked out for every single race when when
you do the Lord if that's factored into the cost or not.
I don't think it is. So therefore just give the rule
to someone else you know, just choose you it's.
Just a fixed multiplier every time.
So it's I don't think so. Yeah, yeah.
So for you, what's? What's interesting is that also
you can't have bulk centre Lord as your general.
I don't. Need something that you can
easily that you should really home rule, but it's it's not
under the general entry, no. It's not and they're they're
only the and and that's the other interesting thing as well
is they and dwarfs at the time were the only armies that could
have a Lord level character that wasn't well sorry not a wizard.
Obviously Wizards are different but a hero type Lord level
character that isn't your general Because dwarfs could
have a demon Slayer. All the rest hero have one Lord
rest for heroes and champions. Chaos with like Centaur Lord.
Yeah, that's later on. That's that.
That comes out a few months later.
I mean at the time, literally, you know when when the books are
released. I suppose you get away with it
with special characters, but that's the only way you could
have additional hero type Lords for other races.
That one's your general, yeah. Yeah.
So you guys who are playing now, do you usually do a a sorcerer
Lord as a general or a normal Lord?
Which which one do you prefer? Well I do a bull Centaur Lord so
I I cheat. Someone wants the best.
And. Well, well, I haven't really
played a lot of it, but I would probably take the sorcerer.
I mean, if you wanted a combat Lord, I would probably take a
bull Centaur instead. I mean, it's it's.
Better. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, the the normal Lord is it's OK, I think, I guess.
But I mean there are better choices if you want the combat
law. Yeah, I guess if you want to.
You've got the torus option always, which is fun and fluffy
and. If you wanted flying, you don't
have too much choice. I guess you.
Yeah. It would be interesting to have
a old centre Nord on a flying now but.
I know you can't. That's maybe.
Stretching it a bit too much. I look a bit wrong as well of.
Course, or you could have you could have a chaos dwarf Lord on
the centre. Lord maybe?
But but that's actually one of the cool differences between
Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs, that the Chaos Dwarfs can actually
ride monsters. Yeah, well, and and have magic.
Yeah. And and Orcs and goffling
allies. Yeah, there's quite a lot.
This is the thing when we were talking about this initially
doing the castle book, like we're, it sounds like we're
messaging each other. It's like, how do you play with
castle? Because none of us have played
with castles, so how do you play with them?
I'm like, I guess it's a bit like a dwarf farm really.
Well, except they have magic and they have cheap troops.
OK, Nothing like a dwarf farm. Cavalry as well, yes.
Exactly. Yeah, it's the there.
There's a lot of differences. None of the weaknesses really,
right? So you have those two choices
for Deano, then you have actually 2 choices for.
Should we should we talk about the monsters while we're here as
well? The Great.
We could do that. And the Lamassu, yes.
So the great Taurus is 225 points.
It has four up arms, tape and a string 3 flaming attack.
So we use the flame template and it lies of course and it causes
terror when? And then the Lamassu is cheaper
at 200 points and you get a four plus dispelled roll and -1 to
hit with magic weapons. So anyone attacking the
creature. It's -1 the lamas 3 has definite
7 as well, which makes it. So it's immune to string 3
attacks. Right.
Yes, but only three attacks. Yes, yes, yes.
It has, yeah, fewer attacks and initiative, but yeah, it's
probably the better choice I would say.
I've always found the the whole breath attack for a really big
nasty monster a complete waste of time unless, unless
especially if you're a flying one, because if you're flying,
you're probably better off getting into combat because I
think your combat attacks are probably better like a dragon
combat attacks are much better than the the than its breath
attack. OK, you've got the argument
about the ice dragon, white dragon, ice dragon freezing
things. Yeah, that's useful.
But generally speaking, you're probably better off getting into
combat than than standing off and and blasting with a strength
three attack. You know, normally you've
probably got something riding, you know, most ball central, not
ball central, Sorry, ball tauruses have got a cursed wolf
Lord or something riding them probably.
So add their attacks to the ball to the to the ball tauruses
attacks. You're probably better off just
in combat, aren't? You so maybe maybe a rule point
and I can't like right now really can't remember, but I've
seen people use the breath attack in close combat.
No, no, no, no as Dragons only. Dragons can do that.
Later. Yeah, in later on there's an
article. In one from the White Dwarf.
Do that, yeah. Yeah.
There's no comment that they can do it.
I've definitely, but because like the the wording is not very
clear and I've definitely been on the receiving end of close
combat flames from Great Taurus. I mean, the house rule, that's
everything that goes, but spring it on your opponent, you know,
the new opponent, maybe that's not entirely fair.
So yeah, not by the rules. That that that could justify why
it's more expensive than the Landmaster rule.
I guess so, yeah. OK.
All right. Could be, and As for monsters,
the case will still sort of have the full spread of choices, so
they could. Yeah, sorry, I'm I'm still stuck
on that, but I'm looking like the Grey Taurus is just under,
just over the griffon in the entry and I'm basically the same
stats but the Grey Taurus is 75 points more expensive though.
You guys are at 4:00 so I'm a save though.
Not sure but that that that's not worth 75 points.
I mean it does have a brother chat but anyway.
That's just, that's just a thought.
Maybe something we can ask the the hive mind into, Yeah.
Yeah. We're going to have a few
questions. Yeah.
And I mean those. Well, Oh no, it's always got
better weapon skill. It's.
Got an extra point of toughness as well.
So I think there's probably yeah.
And toughness, yeah. So, so in fact, toughness is
worth quite a lot. An extra point, it's up going up
from 5:00 to 6:00. That's worth quite a lot.
So I think that's a fair Yeah, I think that's that's a fair
increase of points there. I think personally that's my my
opinion only though. So the the thing I've never seen
though is because we've been a bit formatted I think by the
means the releases like a general on Lamassura, you always
see them on great tourists and you always see the Stosur on the
on the Lamassura that never was around, Yeah.
I'd have thought you could probably say easy enough
conversion, isn't it? Of course, of course, I just,
I've never seen it, but. No, I think I thought about that
as well, that I actually, I have thought that they were limited,
but that's not the case. So they can choose whatever they
want really. Yeah.
And then, and then I guess there is there's a point to the flame
attack because you don't necessarily want to put your
Wizards into close combat. Yes.
Yeah, it's pretty the other way round, actually.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely.
We need more means than small. Commission.
Yeah. So I guess the, if you want, are
using monsters, you usually do one of those because they are
available, but you could do any of the other ones that are
around. So there's a whole bunch of
choices, of course, the Dragons and camaras and whatnot.
I, I, I, I think there's something a bit psychological
about the these two monsters, because in most armies, for your
average, I don't know, it's 3000 point games, you maybe have one
monster, but it's very common, kills our families to see both
on the table at the same time and they do some very good work.
Yeah, I think that comes back down to, you know, availability
of what models there were. Absolutely.
Yeah. The range is really limited.
Yeah. And bulk it up and go.
Oh, and they can have slave Hawks and goblins as well in
order to bulk it. It's very convenient that one,
isn't it? So I think I was down to that is
because there aren't huge amounts of models out there, you
know, and they only released ones on foot slightly.
I think thousands thought there were a few, but I.
Don't know. We said that.
That's like you've got how many units you have, like 678 units.
That's not so few compared to the races.
Yeah, but bear in mind that Black Hawks, Hawks Goblins.
No, I'm not. I'm not counting.
Oh, OK. All right.
I count Black Horse. Just Black Horse.
OK, sneaky gets one in the original list, so that's added
in as well. So I think they did do work to
increase, you know, to to increase options.
But initially it's very slight army list that they bulked out
with orcs and goblins. So, you know, they they could
very easily put like as you could argue this for every for
any race. They could easily put just like
had Chaos Dwarfs and then had the option of either, you know,
great dull headed axe or a blunderbuss.
You know, I mean, you can argue that for most races that they
could easily, you know, merge and later on obviously that they
probably did another in later editions.
We could easily just have like for example, Hiles.
You could easily have just militia and give them either
Spears or bows. Yeah, but I, I definitely think
that Cares was one of those that you really expected to be a
monster in the list, at least one.
I think it's pretty rare that you have an army where you don't
have at least one monster. Yeah, well, they're they're
certainly not. If not the flagship, they are
certainly the epitome of 4th edition.
They are the Hero Hammer Army, aren't they?
Yes, yes, yes, yeah. They're they're, they're
certainly the the poster boys. Yep.
OK, So should we try to come on in the list here?
That's standard. You can have a case of Wolf of
course, but you can also have a Bull Santor battle standard,
which I mean is good in the sense you get a slightly more
durable. Yeah.
So I guess because that's, I
mean, if you look at BS, BS in general, that's I suppose the
main issue that they die very easily.
And you know, that's often an heavy investment if you put a
Magic banner on it. So maybe that's a good idea
sometimes to have something like that.
Yeah, I mean, it's the trouble with if you give a magic banner,
then you're not protecting them anymore, are you?
So, you know, if you put the boys investment on something
like, you know, on Reacher Kion or armour protection, armour
fortune, something like that, then that's where your points
are going. They're not going into the Magic
Banner. Yeah, they're they're they're
battle standards. Obviously I play skaving a lot.
For me, battle standards are really important.
I think a race, yeah. Some races you can avoid having
them and save the points because they're not necessarily worth
the event. It's like a trade off of what
you do with your points, obviously.
Are they worth it? High high leach barbers.
You can probably get away without having one.
Yeah, one, one thing to note here is that the army only has
access to two magic banner options.
So it's the chaos of warriors and the bull centres and of
course the better standard bearers.
So you can maximum have three magic banners I.
Mean you can have several units of each.
No, but only one unit can. Have.
Yeah, sorry. Yes, yeah.
So yeah. So you have two units in your
army that are huge, One huge in, Yeah.
But I mean double. Centauri is 156 points for the
battle standard bearer, so it's quite an investment.
Yeah, yeah. It is, yeah, but it can make it
cool. Centrepiece.
I don't think. Were there any?
Yeah, there was a standard. Standard bearer, yeah.
It was a pretty magnificent standard bearer as well.
You'll see a very big banner on him.
So yeah, he could easily be a centerpiece.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, we're saying that obviously centrepiece in an army
that also has a Lamassu and a Bull Taurus.
So yeah, yeah. But they they they probably take
the eye a bit more than the battle standard.
You have to go, you have to be going some to make a battle
standard the the centrepiece in an army that's got those two.
Ah. Well, you can make it very.
Big. I've done that so right.
So we talked a little bit about the Bull Central launch choice
also a quite a heavy investment, but.
It's quite powerful movement 8 weapons goes 7, Strength 5,
toughness 5, ball wounds, initiative 6 and five attacks.
Well, he. Can he can some damage, but
he's. Three magic items so it can be
put the kids to this world of course.
So yeah, can be quite a beast in the end.
So do you guys have experience from doing some nasty both
centre Lords? Well, well, not a Sally Nasty.
I tend to play big games or 45000 points so you know, it's
if it's less steep, but in smaller game it's difficult to I
think. Yeah.
So do you usually get exactly your investment on a both settle
or do they perform Leo it's a. Difficult question to think
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I mean, so is the problem when
you have 500 points minutes, sometimes you just spend the
game like run the route not doing anything or defeating one
small unit. And other times they kill and
then in general and the source or nod and they, they, they call
1000 points of damage and it's, it's worth it.
So it's, it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell.
I, I did mine. I, I cut off the guy from the
great Torus and I stuck him on the Oh no, I, I cut his, his
helmet and stuck it on one of the Mrs. hat, his big hat, stuck
it on one of the the book's centaurs with the big double
back banner and I just love it. We need to display that on the
forum if you haven't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's it. Yeah, but I mean he he's got
moments of eight, so he has the possibility to get get into it.
So that's nice, right. So let's see if we can finish up
the characters at least in this session.
We have the heroes, we have three choices.
The hope government pops up. Otherwise, I guess the KS Dwarfs
and Bold Settles are his standard heroes for their race,
but it's the Hobgoblin a good choice as a hero.
Well, he's only 59 points, so he wants someone carrying around
magic items. I could maybe for that purpose.
But he's kind of halt somewhere between a goblin hero and org
hero if an org hero is kind of a bit basic.
Yeah, it's more like a human hero.
Yeah. Like a human.
Yeah. Slowly.
Lower leadership. Yeah.
Yeah, it's slow and not charismatic human hero.
Why not? Like it's not a lot of money.
Yeah, we will speak about the Hope cobblings later, but just
Hope cobblings are more you need people include for nostalgia
than anything else. Maybe.
Yeah, you can always put him on a wolf.
Yeah, so the, the the walls are very good.
The walls are very good. What's interesting is that there
is no upcoming Lord option except the special character.
He cannot be your general, sadly enough.
Wow. Could be fun, we could be
upcoming. In our army.
But one thing I, I, I noticed it, it's that the Bull Centre
hero is like a Lord from other races, more or less, because he
has the extra wound. So he's has three wounds.
So he's quite powerful. Quite expensive still.
Very expensive, you know. Yeah, so I, I, I tend to use the
bull centre Lord as a as a fun character, but the hero rarely
and the the champion almost never because it's too
expensive. Yeah, and talking about
champions, there's actually six different choices, as you would
expect, because most units can have a champion choice.
So there's Kezwolf, Bull Centre, Hobgoblin or Black Hawk and
Goblin, and I suppose the Orking goblin.
They are exactly like normal champion in the sense.
So if you want a really, really cheap character you can go for
an Orc goblin champion for 50 points and you can still slap
some sort of magic trick on him. I suppose so.
Yeah, I mean, you can't include it in your chaos of warriors,
but. Yeah, Yeah, they do.
Yeah, that would be a bit weird, but.
Yeah, I suppose we'd think about the ox and the global entire
don't use them and kill for our farmers.
You could stick him in curse dwarf armour so he's masquerade.
He's a. Very just need a big hat.
Yeah, that's an interesting plan.
I think you'll need to house through that one if you want.
Yeah, look, I I'm looking at the list doesn't doesn't really say
that you need to be the same race for the champion race I.
Must say it somewhere, surely? Yeah, I'm looking for that.
You found a loophole or maybe that's more stating the the
general rule, but but. It's not something that most
people would do, but technically yes.
Doesn't say it, doesn't say it. Yeah, you should try that part
and see what your opponent takes.
Yep. So any.
Other I mean, I mean like obviously you wouldn't include
the goblin champion in a chaos dwarf for yours unit, but like a
chaos dwarf champion in Orc or Blackhawk units that wouldn't be
out of character make them. Slow them down.
Though, Yes, yes, of course. But like, yeah, yeah, champion.
So that's why you should use a Hope goblin hero in a chaos
trophy unit he can keep. Up, yes, that's the problem,
right? So any other ideas on champions?
Who do you always include them in the units?
Maybe yes, maybe for blunder buses for Chaos loaf warriors
than to go for hero, maybe with a sorcerer.
Not not for book centres. They're too expensive.
So book centres tend to be led by the Lord sometimes, sometimes
a hero. And the the the OP goblins.
It's supposed going for a hero for that price.
Yeah, I agree that that seems logical.
Yeah, and if I guess if you would have a few units of
goblins for example, you I swap throw in the Champions doesn't
cost. 15 points, yeah. Yeah, what what feels like the
most roughy choice, maybe like a sort of hop gobbling oversea or
something that's and then some people use that to cancel out
anyone CTV. This.
Yeah, he's underhanded. Yeah, sure.
And then the final character choice is the sorcerer, and
that's only available in the as a case of, you know, loud ex
goblins also. And I think that could have been
maybe a bit out of character. So no.
I think there's argument to have whole goblin shaman I think.
Yes, I agree. I quite agree with that.
And that's something that I've house ruled in the past.
I guess in in the book, it's a pain in the ass.
You've got to put the, you might have put the wag rules in and do
they use Wag magic, use dark magic?
Do they use Castor magic? I suppose it's from a what you
include in the book point of view.
Well, they would have bulked the book out is, you know, can we be
bothered doing that? That might have been a yes.
Yes, yes, it's an extra model to scout.
We've used, I've used Wag. Yeah, that makes sense, but
obviously I guess the hand of court could only work on goblin
goblinoids, I assume. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Because otherwise you get, you're getting those curse tools
moving back very quickly. So we don't have too much time
for this session, but do we do the KS dwarf magic next time?
Next session? I suppose maybe too short to do
it in 2 minutes, but what do you think about the the KS sources
do? Is it an auto include to have at
least one cost or yes? Sure, I mean in the same way as
also races. Yeah.
Boom, boom, boom, Yeah. They have toughest 5 as well.
Yeah, so. They're they're quite tough.
Yeah, yeah of course that's in all both edition armies.
You don't really want to be caught with no cost if your
enemy has one, but can be bad since you can cast in both
players tasks. Zata and the Black Commander of
the Tower of Tsar orders that 1000 swords be made of good
black iron, 1000 corselets of Ruddy bronze, 1000 arrowheads of
five shekels of steel, and 10,000 of 2 shekels, and that
this be delivered to the fortress of Tsar when the moon
is full. Let it be known that Zatan
plunders to the West and returns within the month with slaves for
the service of Harshut. So say I, Zatan, the Black
commander of the Tower of Tsar. Glory to Zatan, glory to Gorth
the cruel. All praise Harshut, Father of
Darkness. Right.
So after this short break, we're back and we will get into, I
believe we finished talking about these standard characters.
So we will start looking at the troop choices and the first one
is of course the standard Castle Boreal.
So ideas about those I guess that point.
Yeah, you have to include at least one unit and they are 14
points each. So they have double handed
weapons, heavy armor and Shields.
No options unless that one unit can take take a magic banner.
Yeah. And are they?
I guess they are identical to a standard dwarf in the name.
Yes. Yeah, and point wise to use the
the Dwarf warrior, are they the same or does it differ, do you
know? Yes, they are the same.
They start at eight points and then three for the three are
more ones for the sheets, 2 for the double 100 axes.
OK, Yeah. So that's 14 so that that's one
where I was I've always allowed, which was halberds because
double handed weapon. And that's going to be partially
the case for the bolts and toes can be a drag.
So on the chaos dwarf wires, not so much to a problem.
The good initiative to the heat last anyway.
So that's that's OK. But it's quite rare to have
models where the only options they have like base units is
double handed weapon. Especially for like a core unit
as well. Yes, yeah, exactly.
You know you often have them on specialities like from Dwarf,
Scott mine is that how come with them standard?
Yes, I. Mean I mean you do have the
option of running using your hand weapon if you wanted to.
Store store. But most people.
I mean, we should charge maybe, but I I see, I think the
especially the look of the weapons it look like halbers
make like double ended axis. So it's saying it's very, it's,
it's a very reasonable option to give them.
There's an argument they're pretty much the same thing
anyway, isn't there? The double handed axe and.
Howard, the charge is the different.
Yeah, I mean, in 3rd pole arms had special rules.
So Spears and Howard's actually, because they're poles, they're
there's there's like benefit on initiative and when people
charge you. But obviously in 4th all that
disappeared, so he was having fun with his camera there.
Sorry. Well, I guess the main problem
would be yeah, Movement 3 as usual with dwarfs, yeah, you're
not getting anywhere quickly and if people don't want to fight
you, they can probably avoid the unit.
So I I don't really know how to feel them effectively but maybe
some banner Banner of rough maybe so they can shoot people.
OK. So they're not the most, you
have to have one unit, but it's kind of hard to make them.
Produce results, I think, yeah, I think there's a good argument.
And I know this is kind of doing the thing to get around the
weakness. I get that.
But I think there is a good argument for a castoral sorcerer
having the Book of Asia and getting grey spells because it's
shadow, so Castor also shadow and flame.
So I think it fits in that they they could use great magic in
that sense. Yeah, because it's shadow magic
and access to the, the Empire, you know, British shadows.
I wouldn't go for I, I don't think ice magic would fit with
them. So like the British ice, you
know, they're fired. It would melt.
But but no, I, I, I think that's a perfectly you you can draw a
line of the logic of that one. I think so.
So I don't, I wouldn't be particularly, you know, galled
by an opponent doing that because I think it fits.
I, I, I, I think there's an argument for them having being
having access to either dark magic or the colleges.
Anyway. It's it's one of those things
where where the idea of 10 spells only is great up until
you get to a certain point of size of game.
And then it becomes really restrictive on the number of
Wizards you can have because they don't work 20 more spells.
So hence the commercial you're again, would fit.
Anyway, I'm going to fit the tangent.
Yeah, no, but I think. That's reasonable.
But they require they require to use the like it's true, like the
every other unit in the book does something better than them.
Yes, OK. And then we have the quite
unique case of Lander buses. Yes, that's interesting.
I'm not sure about that. There are fun rules still like
range, pension range and anything like any model within
that Fire Zone that extent 12 is hit which is great in theory but
in practice unless you play like in that would have chaos dwarf
battle reports and you can escape it pretty easily
especially given how slow they are.
Yeah, if you if you get a shot off, it's devastating, but you.
Got to get a shot exactly the. The ideal tactic is means a
flyer isn't it? Land behind them so they turn
around, then land in front of them.
They land behind them, they land in front so they keep turning.
Never get a shot off because you can't move and shoot.
Yes, yes, yes and they can't even shoot as well, which is
very limiting, so they can't go to strength five shots.
This is cool. So I I I I tend to play more
like fast, least with cell tours and walls and hop Koblins.
But if I have a bigger game then I I've got 3 units of
blunderbusses so you can do a big line and it's harder to
escape in that case. Maybe that's the answer Happens
happens the OU. Just like.
Right across the back line with down command in the unit and
battle standards they can re roll.
Maybe that's the idea. Just the entire back line is is
just ramped up like 5 deep, yes. Just.
Just take the. Just take the.
Just take the 1 you need and that's it, Yeah.
Exactly. That's your entire army.
What are your thoughts? Come at me now.
Well it should also note about the strength.
As soon as one guy dies in the back rank your your strength is
reduced. So you need to have a full rank.
So if you're planning on having strength 4, you need some extra
guys behind. So yeah.
Yeah. Can get expensive.
Yeah, so potentially devastating, but if your
opponent knows what he's doing, it's fairly easy to work around
them, I suppose. Set the the verdict on them or.
Yeah, yeah. They can also fire on a single
target if they if they want to. So then you than a role once for
every model in the front rank. So if a hero lands in front of
the unit, you can hit him quite a few times.
I I think it was possibly possibly remember seeing this in
a Reta, but there's nothing in the list I don't think that
states how much a blunderbuss costs for a champion or
anything. So therefore strictly speaking,
like can I take a champion, he's got to be able to exactly say
rusty or did he come in without? I mean it's about 3 points I
think for a blunderbuss if you do the maths between warriors.
And. Yeah, and Blunderbuss.
And you know you'd be a bit of a geek if you didn't let someone
take him. Yeah, yeah, I think by the rules
you probably can't because for example, for Empire you, it
actually says in an FAQ that you can't have an Outrider champion.
That's impossible because you can't give a character model
repeat. So, but I mean, as you said, I
don't think it's a game. Yeah, yeah.
We we do it anyway, right? So it's.
Exactly. Yeah, absolutely.
I said I don't. I don't know if they included
listening right or they said you couldn't interrupt.
I just remember there was some sort of mention of it at some
point. But in the list itself, no.
We should have thought when you're doing your revisions for
the Army book, when you've done the White Dwarf list, that might
be something that you'd include. Yeah, it's.
It's, it's, it's a good segue into the bull centres because
like they have to be given those options of weapons.
Well, yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean they're, I mean,
it hits, they hit means they hit really hard.
Hard. But you're right.
I mean, yeah. Well, it's why I never take
White Wolves for Empire. Oh, exactly.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
It's cavalry double handed weapons because they have it.
Makes no sense. It makes no sense.
So. So I jumped.
Ahead, but like Google centers have great stats, they're a
great unit and they've got light thermals, Shields and double
handed axes. So I mean I usually I I play
them with handbirds and heavy armour artists and often we give
them the Calvary save as well. The plus one or being Calvary.
Yeah. Yeah, makes sense.
Look. They do have so many, so they
have some. So many charges.
No, no, it's it's true, it's true, but I've seen so many
charges from them, which is like flop because it just gets
slaughtered or. Or give them barding or
something like that. I'd idea I don't go that far but
at least like 3 plus save with heavy armour for an extra 2
points and the cavalry bonus makes sense.
But the worst thing is really double handed the axis.
Well 11 tactic I've seen but probably a bit cheesy is you
take a character and you give him the helm of many eyes since
chaos dwarfs can take chaos items and you give him a double
handed weapon and he will strike first and hopefully kill the
anyone charging. They they I'm sure they FAQ that
at some point and said that when it's when it's someone has
always strikes first but then has something that makes a
strike last. I I think it either goes to
becomes like a hand weapon. Yeah, it goes to.
An average of a 2. And it.
Doesn't work. We roll each tend to see whether
they strike first or last. I can't remember what the answer
was in the end, I don't I. Don't remember the latter, but I
definitely remember the former. Audience like to do initiative
in that case. Yeah, I mean for dwarfs I often
my my favorite dwarf warrior, not dwarf, sorry.
Dwarf general combination is certainly a weapon with mastery
and swiftness, but that's but that doesn't really come into
play in this because it's not a double hand weapon.
And if you do add it to a double hand weapon, they already say
that if you put magic like magic weapon, magic rooms onto a
double handed weapon, it just becomes a standard weapon.
You lose the bonuses and the and the minuses.
So it doesn't really it's it's similar sort of logic, though,
so far as to so often my king will lead my my hammers and
yeah, I will take mastering swiftness on him and probably 2
rooms of cleaving. So in effect, he has a double
handed weapon that can strike now, but I'm paying the points
for that. That's that's a hefty investment
Helm with many eyes. Yeah, OK, I can actually, but I
don't think it's necessarily that.
I think it'd be more cheese if you somehow managed to get a
night goblin in there with a with a bad moon banner.
That would probably be more cheese I think.
I I don't think how many eyes as such and you're limited to just
the one. Yes, this is a character.
So you can't do it multiple, you can't spam them around the
entire army. So that's not so bad.
But yeah, no honestly where you're coming from, but it
possibly is the only way you get around that because it is such a
disadvantage when having double handed weapons.
It's. Hubbards Hubbards house rule.
It's like. It's a go to a house rule.
OK, so if you don't go that road route, it's or the book Santos
not a good option or do you still like to so?
You want to agree they're very expensive as well.
They're more expensive than Empire Night with a 2 + S OK,
they've got toughness for two wounds, 2 attacks, great.
So it's a nightmare too, in effect, because they've got the
horse. Yeah, with the horse.
True, true. But like I think you pitch both
centaurs against Empire Knights and the Empire Knights win every
time. Yeah, no, I agree.
They're kind of got the same drawback as blunderbusses in
that if they work, they'll be brilliant, but if they don't,
you know, they're, they're, they're not.
The thing about dwarves is, is they're phenomenal about
punishment. They can take balls and tours
can't take a lot of punishment. No they can't, they can't, they
can't and like 5 plus save is is stable.
That's why I think overall this army books give a little bit of
an finished flavours when it comes to the the unit options.
And I say it's probably the same with the the magic standards.
It feels like it was written quickly for White Dwarf and then
not really revised when they published the book.
Which it should have been really.
You'd have thought play testing, a bit of feedback from people.
You know, we didn't have studio probably playing them as well.
We didn't necessarily need to go outside the studio to get that
feedback. Don't know how much play testing
there was of them initially. No, probably not.
Just for the rules and release them and never change them.
Yeah, exactly. But yeah, the nice models too.
Yeah. That's cool.
Yeah. Brilliant.
So. So.
I think they usually put the banner of might on them in the
battle reports. That's where at least.
So for the plus one. Thing, yeah, the standard of
shielding 200. Banner of Might is brilliant for
them, but they've got to actually hit.
They've they've got to actually get a chance to attack.
And if you've got double end weapons, you yeah.
Yeah, it's because we're not going to.
Take that many you know so OK, they can take a bit and punch it
in the sense if they've got toughness four and two wounds,
but we but as you said, with the same thing and in combat 6 plus
because you don't get the. Steel, Yes, yes, yes, yes.
You know, it's, yeah. Tissue paper, Yeah.
Yes, right. So Next up are the hog goblins.
Gorgeous models you mean. Yeah, I love them.
Yes. Yes, yes, really nice small
Dobbs. I mean, the sneaky gits and the
Warriors kind of do the same thing and we're going to talk
about the gits after, but they're they're better.
So the Warriors, you don't find them included very often unless
you just like the book of them, I think.
They did as well see Gits for a later edition weren't they?
So initially when people were buying Castle when they first
came out they would have bought Hoggoblin warriors.
But yeah absolutely right. Probably more likely to go for
sneaky gits as they are better. Yeah, and they.
They cost less than five points, so their options are half
points. So you can 6 points a model with
the light armor. So it's it's reasonable.
Yeah, they won't do a lot. There are some.
Rooms. Yeah, sorry.
Go on. Now go on, now are you going?
I was just thinking about the animosity rules.
Maybe if we can mention that here.
So if there are hobgoblins in the army, then any orc and
goblin units will ignore the animosity rules.
So it's if you're taking any orcs and goblins, you should
take at least one unit of hobgoblins because then the the
the orcs and goblins will behave for the battle.
But. Will they still behave even if
they die? It doesn't say, but it it
probably if they're dead then they aren't present, so I guess
they should start using animosity again.
Yeah, I think a reasonable person would say yes, they do.
It just says if your army includes mobs of hobgoblins.
Yeah, so if you're a bit sneaky, you could argue that it doesn't
matter. You guys have?
55 even. Yeah.
Let's take a hero and put him somewhere.
In the forest. Yeah, so but the hobgoblins
themselves use the animosity rules, so that's they still test
for animosity. And orcs and goblins ignore
fleeing hobgoblins. So if the homegoers flee the the
orcs and governments won't care. Strangely enough that the chaos
wharfs will have to test for panic for fleeing greenskins.
I think that's one of the major oversights in this because why
would they care about the fleet slaves?
So it's very strange. Yeah, I think that would be a
perfectly reasonable house rule to say they don't care about
that. They actually got it in the 6th
edition ravening hoards list they got.
Ignore greenskin panic. Yeah, there was this very, very
cheesy and popular tactic at some point of including a unit
of allied up goblin warriors in Ox and Goblin now.
I remember that, yes. I've never done this.
I would not do this kind of thing.
I. Mean it's it's like the
including a Black Hawk in every unit sort of thing yes yes if if
you want to play walks and goblins except animosity is a
thing, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. And is this the first mentioning
of Hope Goblins in 4th edition? They.
No, no, no, no, no, no. They were, they were major.
They were quite a major thing in first.
Yeah, I know, I know they were before 4th edition, but yeah,
and and. 3rd oh, mention on 4th yeah, the first mention in
fourth of yes, I think so. But they were they were really
big though, prior to they they were they had the biggest
empire. You know, they they were the
Mongols. They had the biggest, Yeah, they
had some empire in in the, in the old Hammer world.
I know they were featured in the role.
Playing game and now they're kind of this, this kind of
pathetic race of goblins. It's quite, it's a bit of a
shift. I think that's another thing
that divided kind of the older players with the new ones that
hobgoblins to get, like cursed horses, like this big shift of
what they were. There was a big shift of what
hobgoblins were. I think they still mention it
briefly in the background. It's quite.
I'm looking at the the the best scenario though not to know.
Yeah, and it's I think in the cursed wolf, you know, in the
cursed wolf beast, I think it's mentioned that that they'd come
from this race of, you know, with a Khan and things like
that. But it's it's kind of just a
sprinkled in there. It's not really referenced
properly that they're this other kind of really powerful race.
They're more kind of this pathetic version now, but.
They did release a unit for the Dogs of War.
Indeed. Yeah, they're more, yeah.
They were like Mongols. Yes, yeah, yeah.
So. I I need to drop in like 2025
minutes? Yeah, we'll finish the at least
the unit section, then maybe we'll do the special characters
if need be, right. So let's try to finish those up.
There's not too many left hobgoblin options.
You can as well. So yeah.
So they're good? Yes, they're fun.
And they have a blow. Yeah, not short.
So yeah, vignetting range, yeah, no, very useful, especially
considering the blunderbuss is such short range.
So yeah, now I think The Archers are very useful unit then, and
relatively cheap as well. Yeah, yeah, we try to give up
The Archers or the gates, the. What, what about The Archers?
I mean the the gates pretty much, you know, they have
additional rules being kind of rolled over into the same
principle as the warriors. As we kind of said, it's.
Well, they they'll be better. I do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are more safe than modifier.
They can lap, they have no save, but they they, it's it's fun.
You need to use. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Sorry I'll skipped.
Over. Yeah, I guess.
That's the the problem would be to have them stick around or
actually getting to lap around. But maybe a crown of command?
Yeah. Oh no, it's not what's special.
I'm not coming on them. Go to a solution for everything.
Problem I can get that. Yeah, you can get them a hero at
least. So yeah, early poison, but it
didn't work as it did later on. It was just a -1. -1 say.
Modified. Yeah, yeah.
So I guess. If you ask that they can lap
around even if they lose the combat, so they can.
Yeah. And then if you don't give them
some sort of modifier where they stay within the general sphere,
if they lose, they're probably not going to stay around.
Leadership 6. So yeah.
Yeah, that should be quite lucky.
And did they release models for just standard Hope goblin
warriors or whether they just these sneaky git or they're the
same? Yeah, Sneak Gits came out a
little bit later. Yeah, yeah, both of them, yes.
So the Hope Goblin warriors are with Axis and Shields?
All right, Yeah. And the sneaky gits have two
knives and. They're released around about
the same time as the cast of Wood off Battle Report, right?
Right roundabout then. I think it was like one or two
issues before, but it was roundabout then.
OK, so we talked about The Archers.
Yeah, cheap choice, always take them.
They're not amazing, but like, it's a good shooting option.
It's the only shooting option they have.
And yeah, you could give them some lights on and stuff, but
you're probably not going to do that.
Let's see. No, like and I don't know if you
compared to for example Hoffling Bowman for the I guess so pretty
good a bit leadership issue of course still.
But I'm think that Ballistics can fall, so there, yeah.
But yeah, but they are extremely weak if they actually happen to
go into combat. Sure.
And what kind of size of units would you go for for The
Archers? And 12.
Yeah, that's a fair share. Couple of units.
OK. And then you have the the fast
cabaret. You have the book in book
Fighters. Now that's very good units.
Yeah, yeah, probably one of the better units in the list.
I mean, it could be or even described as the best unit,
which is if you don't house rule the the bull centers and the
kills dwarfs, they're really good.
They can have good save can use them skirmish with balls.
You've got the special character that you can add to them to give
them a bit of punch so they can they only.
Have short posts though, Yeah, that's the drawback.
Yeah, and and they can't have spells, but they they're good
unit. I always have two or three
units. Yeah, they're like, they're like
super gobbo wolf riders. Yes, yes.
Yeah, exactly 3. Yeah, and of course that's with
all the hot goblins a bit vulnerable to any kind of
leadership test that they got on their own, but.
So that's why like the the, the special character is not very
expensive and it's got leadership 8, you know?
It's it's. 93 points, it's it's a very good.
Guy yeah, so solid choice. Good for harassing stuff and
just running around doing mischief.
Then you have the the Greenskins, the sort of normal
Greenskins and I guess they don't differ any stats wise or
cost wise to what you would get in the Oxengoblin list or?
They should be identical. Not the same, yeah.
Yeah. So for the Blackhawks, you have
a zero to 1 unit, so you can have only have one unit.
That's the only restriction. So what are your feeling about
including those? I guess the Blackhawks are the
most sort of iconic in connection to the Chaos Force
that this one you use so. My only problem is that so I've
got big unit painted but I want to use them for the oxen Kobe
because I feel like their style doesn't really match the chaos
walls. And the Blackhawks, they have
the only little bit of history with the chaos walls.
I think they had sort of the rebellion.
Like, what was it? The ones, yes.
Yes. So they were created by the
sorcerers in an attempt to create a stronger and more
reliable race of slaves, but they rebelled and nearly wiped
out the Chaos Dwarfs. But then the hobgoblins switched
sides and yeah, so they lost. So they don't like the
hobgoblins, so. No, they.
No. Really don't I guess if if you
wanted to include sheep units that doesn't suffer from
animosity, I I guess you. Can.
Well, they did. They're great units.
They're very good. Yeah, they have a solid
satellite, I think. It's just like the the problem
to be a bit more Kills dwarfs, kills dwarfs.
So I guess if you didn't have to include a unit of Chaos Warriors
you would probably go for. These guys, as they're talented,
yeah, for sure, yeah. Yeah, I always Black Hawks kind
of lack from lack from the ability to take heavy armour.
Yeah, the light armour is just because most of the model well
all the models are either double hand weapon or additional
weapons. The light armour is just is not
worth taking and they are some and they're not.
The models aren't quite heavy armour, but they're certainly
not light armour. What they're wearing.
We say the plastic. The plastic ones are very
flimsy. Yeah, but you know, they're a
bit trans naked, like you can see a lot of like.
They are very light armour. Yeah.
No, it's yeah. Yeah.
Not the metal ones are are are more.
Heavy, very hot. Yeah, exactly.
So they, they, you know, I, I think they could benefit from
house rule of allowing them heavy armour.
Yeah, which will fit well with different models that look maybe
with the cats as well. Yeah.
And then you can also have the normal OX if you want to.
They're cheaper, obviously, but. Yeah, so orcs, orcs and goblins
I don't include by principle because I mean, they're supposed
to be slaves and they they I don't see them like fighting or
having the same stats as the normal guys for that race.
Just feel like a bit of an afterthought.
They are. They did the least you.
Oxley Stout, doesn't it? That's that's that's why I think
they're already brilliant and with the with the easiest doing
it going all their slaves are pressed into fighting.
It's it's, it's a, it's an easy cop out, you know, sort of like
scathing slaves. Obviously in a scathing are
lesser. Fighters.
Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense, yeah.
What do you think, Ted? Do you well?
I kind of kind of like it for a fluff reason because yeah and
also if if you have an orc army, you can just buy some chaos
dwarves and have a new army with.
Some. You can use them in both, but
yeah. And I guess I mean, even if they
weren't the Cleveland List, you could still haven't used them as
allies. I suppose so.
Yeah, we didn't mention it, but the Chaos Dwarves can have the
chaos and working of in allies. And of course, Allies is entire
discussion we don't often get into but so.
There's another another podcast there.
Yeah, yeah. So could other races ally in KS
Dwarfs or was that sort of retroactively mentioned
anywhere? Or how did that work, does
anyone know? Good question.
That's a good question. I don't think they're probably
listed in the ally list section for most of them.
I wonder if they were. Well, hold on.
So Chaos is probably the only one that if, if you go by the
rationale that Kerswell's going to have Chaos, Chaos or some
goblins, all goblin ballists have already been released,
obviously. So they're not going to be in
that one. Our whole Chaos list as allies.
I doubt it. So maybe no one could buy the
rules of Kerswell Allies I. Mean it.
It seems logical, doesn't it, That they?
As it wouldn't make sense for well.
Yeah, Kerstal's listed in the KAOS book, they are listed.
Yeah, and which one in the in the 4th edition?
And then, well, actually this is a later printing, so maybe they
were added, no. Yeah, I I was just looking at 1
here and I'm not in there. So they were added in.
Later on when they did the reprints they added them in
which? Yeah, dark ends.
Would it make any sense for any other races to have the sort of
house rule in some case Dwarfs, Scabe and Beta?
I don't know. Is it any rationale for them to
be able to add some case Dwarfs, you say?
Yeah. I mean, I think maybe allies
don't make too much sense anyway.
Always so. Yeah, I know there's the whole
idea that elves and dwarves don't get on sort of thing, but
I always thought that a natural fit would actually be dark elves
and cow's dwarves. If you said, I mean it kind of
they would be the ones that did accept each other.
Maybe that's that's only my way of thinking.
OK. So maybe if we do it recently
quickly we can handle the war machines in the sessions what we
have 7 1/2 minutes. So Leo can be in on that part as
well. So they have only three war
machines, but they are all unique or I don't know how
unique the hot gobbling bolt throw is.
They have hot gobbling, but. Just the standard bolt throw,
yeah. Yeah, it's just the cruiser
difference. Yeah, yeah.
But it's very cheap, of course. 42 points, yeah.
Yeah. It's kind of like you have a few
points to feel, yeah, this is not bad, It's not great.
A lot just there. Yeah, exactly.
You can get lucky with it, that's why not.
Yeah, if you have 40 points to spare, maybe throw in the of
course. Yeah, pop fruit.
I like that choice. Because they don't misfire.
No. Yes, that's true.
Yeah, of course. Yes.
Yes, we can miss, but they ain't going to blow up.
But if we look at the second choice, they can misfire and,
you know, and. That's the the main part of
them, right? Because it's otherwise the
genius should like a catapult. But when they misfire, this is
fun because they can go, the rocket can spin and go anywhere.
Yeah. So it's 75 points.
So it's not that cheap, I think. No, I mean, yeah, for a strength
five hit with the template and a 48 inch range and D3 wounds.
So I mean, yeah, it's OK I guess, but nothing special.
Exactly. It's a catapult inside.
Yeah, something with a bit of a. Function.
Yeah, it's a bit shark. The the rocket can bounce
around, yeah. Have you had any experience or
maybe Leo if you played more a lot of games, maybe so.
We're going to talk about the R Shaker, which is definitely not
to include, but the the chaos the the Rockets is if you have
the point, if it's a big game, it's not, it's not automatic.
Weirdly background right wise, I mentioned the bazooka, but then
I've forgotten as well is you could have hobgoblin rocket
launchers. So it feels like it's kind of
bringing together all those ideas.
Castle Bazooka and Hobgoblin rocket launchers, kind of it's
it's the migration of those two, the death rocket for me.
Yeah. And I guess that sort of goes
with the Asian thing as well. They had, yeah, the use of
rockets back in the days. Absolutely.
OK, yeah, so maybe not all to include, but a bit of a fun kit
if you want to. But then we have the Earth
Shaker, which is more. Of a This one is nasty.
Horrible, horrible cannon. Well, mortar really isn't it.
It's not really a cannon. It's more mortar.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. The the the main thing is the
Earth Shaker effect. Yes, of course.
It slows you down, sometimes prevents you from shooting, and
it's very good. This is very good.
Yeah. And that's the.
Yeah. And it's a totally unique
feature as well. There's no other wall machines
there, anything like that. So.
So you. Roll roll 2D6 from where the the
shell lands, and then any model within that area must roll on a
chart to see what happens. Yeah, so I guess you roll for
individual models. Have have.
We've always rolled for units. Yeah.
That's a bit simple as well. Otherwise, yeah.
That would be a bit tricky. If you like yes, 4 units
something a bit rolling but. But I do think that Ruse does
say that you should only roll for the models that are within
the area, but I can see why you would.
So, so it's it's it says that part of units can be affected,
Yeah, which I've always read as the role for the unit, but only
the all the models within the the range are the ones that
affected and not signature models.
Yeah. That's Yeah, I think that's a
reasonable interpretation. So yeah, and there's.
No, Yeah. And the idea as well, you move
forget whether searcher in general, the unit moves at the
speed of the slowest thing. So therefore it reduces the
speed of part of the unit. It reduces the speed of the
entire unit, yes. And, and all I want to say is
you can is it can feel a little bit counterproductive.
The earth shake your Canon because whilst yes, it does
damage and it's lots of fun, right?
But your castles don't have a lot of range weapons.
So you're getting into close combat.
I think the idea is that you're pinning them in place for your
units to get at them. Yes, exactly.
Yeah, because you can have a like a fairly fast chaos to our
family. You can have like wolves, you
can have centaurs and you can have the two flying monsters
even like Black Horse are somewhat fast.
So you, you, you don't play the the killer's dwarves like you
play the dwarves at all. And that's what the are Shakers
are very useful. I've got 3.
Yeah. Well, how would you take in a
2000 or what? Or you say you've played 5000
points minimum. If you'd played one or 2000
points, how many would you take? In 3000 points, just one, just
one, one. OK, No.
Otherwise no one would play with me anymore.
Exactly. Exactly.
So they are, Yeah. They just what they are is
bloody frustrating. Yes, bloody annoying.
So could two earth cannon effects sort of overlap on one
unit? So is it?
Yeah, I don't see why not. Yeah.
So. Yeah, your room for every, every
shot. Yeah.
OK. So you have sort of an if you
have the points, that's probably an all to include.
Or. I've got a memory of playing
dwarves against kills dwarves and like the earth Shaker just
like prevented the dwarfs from shooting while the Lamassu the
great tourist is just running riots around the unit.
Say was one of the biggest defeat I've ever had, I think.
Yeah. Stick them with arrows, stick
them with knives and Spears, stick them where it hurts.
But most of all, stick them when they're looking the other way.
God, expect stabber of goblin Chieftain.
Right. So you had to leave us.
So it's just us 3 handling the final part of the only book, the
special characters and maybe a bit of the finishing words on
the KS Wolves. So we'll just get into that.
And the first one is is that it's.
Sat on the black or sat on the black.
Very cool name. Very cool name.
Yes, could possibly be slightly controversial by some little
standard, but I don't think we mind too much.
But it's pretty interesting because.
If you look at his. Points.
His points cost his 12 points more than a regular chaos Lord.
Chaos Lord. And for that 12 points, you get
one more weapon skill, one more wound, one more initiative, you
get heavy armour, you get to carry 4 magic items and you hate
every Yeah, so that's for 12 points more than.
That he's normal character in that sense, yeah.
Oh, that's seems like a pretty easy choice if you want.
Yeah, so if you want to take Chaos Dwarf Lord, you should
probably take him. Yeah, and it's not none of the
magic items are sort of shows up for him.
You no. No, you can choose freely.
Yeah, that sounds like a very easy choice if you want to.
Yeah, he he does have one drawback.
He can only ride a Lamasu or a great Taurus cannot.
Choose freely from. The monster list, yeah.
Yeah, I guess that would be quite rare.
Anyway, I can't remember seeing any Chaos Dwarf characters
riding around on like whatever cockatlist or something.
So I mean, he's yeah, weapon scalate and four wounds.
So it's he's, he's pretty solid, I think.
He's not. Yeah.
And well, the extra point weapon skill and the hatred, combine
those two and he's just, yeah, he's probably hitting, you know,
you probably give him something like a black camera hash shot or
something like that. And he's he's going to do a lot
of damage. Yeah, as well.
So absolutely. And what's their model released
for him specifically? Not a dedicated model.
Yeah. So I guess you would just use
the the Lord on the Taurus. That's the yeah, exactly right.
So yeah, pretty generic in one sense.
He only has one special rule, the hatred, and then he's just
better. Really.
Yeah, normal. Yeah, and the extra Malik item.
Is also the end of aspiration. Yeah, 12 points, 12.
Points. One point in recess.
That's a lot, yeah. Yeah, yeah, a lot of it.
One's extra. Yeah, he will probably still be
worth it because like that. And, and he says it, he may,
yeah, he may be led by. Yeah.
So I don't think it states you can't have a cursed wolf Lord
and him I can't. See Why not?
Yeah, which don't get me wrong, is a lot of points to be
spending out, but it doesn't say you can't.
So there'll be people, especially in bigger games where
they're going. Oh, I guess be another Lord in
it. So you kind of, you know, I
think there is wording there that needs to go in, but it
isn't there as in a lot of the Omnibooks to be fair.
Yeah, but all right. So yeah, definitely a very good
choice. If you want a Kierstwarf Lord,
that's the way to go. And then you have a Hobgoblin.
Yeah, Gordus Backstabber. So he's the only hobgoblin Lord
character. Otherwise you can only take hero
level hobgoblins. But yeah, so he has basically a
human Lord, just that line. Yeah, looks almost.
One less, yeah, and maybe 1 less.
Initiative, yeah, yeah. So it's only 93 points and I
mean he's only special rule is that he gets a four plus save
against losing his last wound. So when he's down to 1 wound, if
he loses that one, he gets a four plus special save which he
can use every time he loses his last one.
OK, yeah, so he can just keep rolling if he's lucky and stay
alive. If it actually says so long as
he stays lucky, yes. So yeah.
I guess they can have well because you have magic items I
guess he can have chaos matched. With.
Waterstone charm and just keep on well, not carrying any once,
but you know what I mean. You can really roll it out plus
1 -, 1. So that's probably quite a quite
a little cheap tactic to use with him.
Yeah, so he can have 33 magic items as he's the Lord, Yeah.
He may die. That's what so you can put them
on. Light armour so, but he can have
of course magic armour, so it's. Not too bad.
And I guess not too bad if you want a bit of more durable wool.
Friday units for goblins could be nice.
Yeah, he does have, yeah. He can.
Find. Yeah, and you can of course give
him items to make him, you know, it's not just a human in the
coast combat, so too bad. Did he get a model?
No, there was a goblin Lord on a wolf.
You could use that one to represent him I guess.
He looks very important and kitted out so.
Yeah, why not? Lovely.
Is that the one with the extra big hat?
Yeah, yeah. So that's for horns.
And he's a big axe over his head and a shield.
And he also has a bow actually on on him, so.
Yeah. And a big cloak, Yeah.
So it's a great model. He's a lovely model.
Yeah, very good. And then we have Astrov.
Yes. He had a model at least, so he's
30 points more than a sorcerer Lord.
And for that you get weapons Q6 Strength 5A3 plus armor save and
movement 6 and the movement is he always moves at the movement
6. So even if he charges or flees
or no, not flees but marches so charges he always gets 6 so he
he doesn't double that one, but he he's always moving at the
moment 6 and he he doesn't suffer that -1 to pursuit or
flee moves as usual dwarfs. So he's a bit faster.
And the extra special attack thing.
Yeah, so if you hit with all of his three attacks, he gets
another three attacks. So actually, so obviously you
give him the Blade of Darting Steel and yeah, you get 6
automatic strength, five hits. Yeah, yeah, because he can
choose his own magic items. So that's a bit bit sticky and a
portion of strength or something in each of at least one pretty
devastating round of attack. Ouch.
So I mean, yeah, he's a level 4 wizard and I don't know, kind of
cool model. I think he's riding around in
the in a mechanical suit because his legs have turned to stone.
I only noticed the other day that his body is amongst that,
so I just thought it was kind of his head.
You could only see his head, but now if you actually look at the
model you can see his body riding.
You can see his feet underneath the beard and it's all crackly
like it's stone. So it's they, they did think
about it when they when they designed.
It. So I I don't know if you could
probably use him to move around on his own.
I don't know if he's bit faster than normal Chaos Dwarfs.
It's a bit tougher as well. Yeah, bit almost safe.
Cool. And he got a model, but that was
later. Was it?
It's not fit. It was a.
Bit later, yeah. It's round about the same time
as the book, wasn't it I think. Yeah, I think it was.
The article was in, I think it was in May 95, was the White
Dwarf article about him? So I guess the model came around
there. Yeah.
OK. So they only had three choices,
but they will seem like reasonable choices, all of them
that you could include and you know, not I mean.
They they they seem to have a place.
If you want to you, you could use them.
They're not terrible. I.
Think. No, and none of them are limited
in the choices of medic items. They don't have any dedicated
medic items, which is also often.
So the downside of the special characters, if they're mandatory
items, are not great, which is sometimes the case.
OK, so one thing we haven't spoken about yet is the KS wolf
magic. We've spoken about it briefly,
but maybe we can just look at those for a little bit.
So are they only spells that sort of stand out or are they
versions of the sort of standard spells that they have, a magic
missile and so on? Maybe they are not too special,
but do you have any favourites or?
Well I think they're pretty nice overall.
One thing to note, there is a lot of power 2 spells, most of
them are power 2, only one power 3 spell which is eruption and
that one is probably pretty good as low initiative armies.
So you place the template and anything under have to pass an
initiative test or just die without any wounds or anything.
He has to remove the model. So you can potentially out kill
some big stuff. But yeah, it depends on the
initiative. And then you have some sort of
versions of SSL standard stuff. You have, I think, like a
personal movement spell for the cost of the Magpul.
Right. Move around a bit.
Yeah, it's like a teleport. You can move anywhere on the
table. And I mean if you look at the
college schematic for example, most of the decks have one of
those so you can use it to charge for.
Yes, you can move into close. Combat.
Yeah, and you have a close combat sort of weapon thing.
Fist of fire, I suppose. Yes.
Yeah, you're flaming hide and you've got a combat monster, so
you'll fist a fire flaming hide and Mag and Paul, you're, you
know what your whizzers are doing.
Good to go. Absolutely.
One that I like is Lava Storm, so it's power 2 range 18, so 2D
six hits that wound on a four up and no arm saves.
So it's pretty solid, I think, yeah.
There's another one. Sources Curse.
What's that one do? Yeah, so the victim must roll
less than their strength on 2D6 or they can do nothing for an
entire term and it remains in play.
So on a like a sorcerer Lord or something with strength four
could be should shut them down, yes.
Yeah, and then they have a sort of a template weapon, Flames of
Asgor. Yeah, yeah.
So it's a straight for it. That was actually the only spell
that changed to as it moved into 5th edition, the 5th edition
Magic Box. So then they removed the
template because it used the flame template.
But then then it used I think it did a round with a 12 range and
just placed the round template instead.
I don't know why because it had a teardrop.
You know the teardrop flame templates in the 4th edition
version? Yeah, go ahead.
Strange. Yeah, yeah.
I don't know why. OK, let's see what we have more
doom roar trying to. Yeah, it's kind of a utility
spell, yeah. So any any units in Hunter and
combat must take a panic test. Any enemy units and any fleeing
units are rallied automatically. So some medicators that do
similar stuff, is it there or is it combination?
Of yeah, is it a horn of or something like that?
Yeah, I think that's breaking the enemy, but I think there's
one that rallies. So maybe that's a combination of
two existing antique items somewhere.
And you also have ash cloud, which is pretty nice.
I mean, you, you have the enemy units, movement, weapon skill,
Ballistics skill, initiative and attacks.
And it remains in place. So you can, yeah, shut down a
unit. Combine that with a couple of of
shaky cannons and just going to love you.
Yeah, that'd be very frustrating.
Yeah, but it seems like most spells are useful.
I mean, they do. It's a good mix of attack and
like buff spells. I think it's quite a good list.
And frustrating spells as well. Yeah, not much defensive though.
They haven't got anything defensive, but again, that's
because it's. Casual, it's very it's just the
the four are the same with the the flaming hive.
Hive, yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, if you sort of go with the idea that they are,
well, they're not actually linked to corn in this one, but
you know, in general, they're sort of in your face, but.
They are. They are.
Volcanoes aren't there. That's, that's, that's the idea.
So it's, it's shadow and flaming, the sense, you know,
volcano erupting and all the smoke comes out of the volcano
as well. So kind of understandable.
They're not very defensive. It's, it's, you know, they're an
offensive army. Yeah, volcanoes are usually
pretty aggressive, right? So I think we have the most of
the actual book do Ted, for example, do we have any like
summary? Why do you love?
Well, I guess it's the the imagery, it's like, I always
liked evil factions. But yeah, but they, they have
quite a unique look, I think. I mean, if you compare with the
normal dwarfs, they're pretty standard like fantasy dwarf
imagery. But the Chaos Dwarfs have their
own unique Warhammer look. I think it's like this Assyrian,
Babylonian imagery draws pretty heavily on actual imagery from
that from the ancient era. So it's, it's feels very rooted
in like our history and, but it's also of course, combined
with the fantasy elements of the, the chaos influence.
And I think it's quite interesting that they're,
they're chaos aligned, but they're not really part of chaos
as such. They're they're kind of their
own thing they're doing. Their own thing they're in the
dark lands yeah and also the differences between the normal
dwarfs so they can have like we said, monsters.
They work with the greenskins they have magic so it's they're
quite the yeah, the mirror image, so to speak of the the
normal dwarfs yeah. I think they're they're kind of
interesting, but it's a shame they they never really got yeah,
true Army book and and yeah. Yeah, because this was the only
army book they ever. Got actually, yeah, yeah, they
got rules in the the Revenue Hordes 6th edition list where
Blunderbuss has actually got move and fire.
Otherwise it was pretty similar, yeah.
Yeah, and but I mean against workshop they they never quite
dropped them. I mean they sort of kept them on
a slow burn and you know, they popped up now and then.
So and I don't know in the old world or the animationing of
those. Do you know maybe we don't talk
I. I only know that they have.
I think there was some symbols on the maps indicating that
there were chaos tours in the Darklands, but.
So maybe they open for the opportunity, but.
Yeah, I mean, they're still there in the background at
least, but I don't know if they're planning to do something
maybe. So.
That they are in the Total War 3 computer game.
They release the Chaos Tour, so maybe that's an indication, I
don't know. Yeah, special little shout out
to the Storm of Chaos cannon, Warp cannon, whatever it's got
work. On Yeah, yeah, they have the
Chaos Dwarf crew, yeah. Yeah, because the crew are kind
of a hybrid of the two styles of Chaos Dwarf.
They're kind of a match of of yeah, the big hat style and the
little cows warrior style. So so I actually think the crew,
the model's nice, but I think the crew are nicer than than the
Canon itself. Hell cannon that's.
Hell Cannon. That's the name.
Which I always think is also not not only the earth shake and
it's the heart back to the old ass cannon yeah I.
Was thinking about. That possibly between those two,
you kind of put them together and you get the hell cannon.
Yeah, that was sort of a the idea that I think was a demon in
a sense. It can sort of run around on the
sound of it. Yeah, it was.
It was from a very different era.
Yeah, so they're not quite forgotten, but you have to dig
pretty deep to get out the action models.
They live in our hearts. They do black black dog.
Hearts. Right.
So do you have any other thoughts finishing words or
should we wrap this one up and? What he has done is probably to
look at the for Basil sculpts again.
I started picking some up a little while ago, and I think
you need to get back to picking them up just so I've got them,
you know, in the bag ready to go whenever I'm ready to paint my
castles because I do have some of the plastic ones from 4th
edition, the Chaos Warriors. But that's all.
And yeah, I don't want to auction a kidney to, you know,
to buy like a couple of models on eBay.
Yeah, I think going down the Thorbasal route just because
it's, yeah, it's more cost effective.
And I do plan on patenting gestures at some point because I
want to have the fun of the. The main is it's the magic that
attracts me to them. I've got to be honest, I think
that's really cool and fun and I want to make little volcanoes
everywhere, so. And Ted, is your KS Wolf project
finished or do you still have some?
More or less. I still have one Earth Shaker
cannon unpainted, but that's the only thing that's not done.
So it's, yeah, more or less done I would say.
Yeah, so I hope you will be able to take to the battlefield at
some point and try it out. I hope so.
Which one? Yeah, should try to get a game
some points to that. We live on different sides of
the country, but should be possible, I hope.
Yeah. What's when you organise?
When you organise Swedish oil, you'll be able to do it.
Yeah, we have. We have very, very loosely
talked about it at. Some point.
But I think we need to plan that whole lot better if we get that
done. But it would be very nice to
have sort of a more event scenario driven.
Yeah, something like boil would be great.
Yeah, not so much the tournament, but rather, you
know, just playing games and yeah.
Turn up and organise games. Just have a gaming weekend.
It's it's can't promote Boil enough.
It's, it's fantastic. I'm looking forward to this
year's one where I will be playing a lot of 2nd edition
40K. Not.
Not edition Warhammer. Shocking.
It's definitely on my bucket list to visit Boyle, I just have
to plan that up a little bit soon.
But would be that that one and the Polish one seems found as
well. That's that's why I've got a
little bit quiet on the 4th edition groups.
I'm currently painting up some bad Moon Hawks so which which
sadly don't really fit with them posting to the 4th edition
group. So if everything went a bit
quiet at the moment, that's why. Yeah, afternoon.
I'll be back. Expect some an avalanche of
pictures I. Don't know about that, but yeah,
an avalanche, yeah, that's probably better.
Yeah, I've done some. I've I've finished my our bikes
now, so they'll come up at some point, probably the old hammer
group, I'd have thought and the second issue one may the second
group may be, but I feel like a bit of a fraud posting in there
because I haven't, you know, contributed regularly what it's
like. Oh yeah, I've also done these
and was like this. I've ever got them.
OK. So I guess that's it for today.
We managed to solid at least two hours in the bids.
So yeah, good one. And of course then while
listening, please do post up your own pictures on for
additional kind of command or wherever you want to post it,
but just post. That's always nice to see show.
You the love. Yeah.
So thank you very much. Thank you.
Cool. Have a good day.
Cheers. Bye.
See you. Bye.
Bye.
Oh.
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