1 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:15,200 I stand here atop the ziggurat of Zanagrand, the place of fire 2 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:21,560 and desolation. From where I stand, I can gaze 3 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:28,680 across the plains of Zadak, and what I see is pleasing to my 4 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,560 eyes. It is forever dark under the 5 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,080 sun. Here at the heart of the world, 6 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,440 the smell of sulphur and of burning oil fills the air. 7 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,720 The cracking of whips and the wailing of the slaves drowns out 8 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,520 the clatter of machinery. This is the future. 9 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,120 One day hush. It shall rise from his slumber 10 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,560 and trample the world beneath his brazen hooves. 11 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,200 The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain 12 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:09,240 shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Tsar to toil for the 13 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:17,400 greater glory of Harshut, and all will be blessed darkness 14 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,960 from the prophecies of Astrogoth, the High Priest of 15 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:30,770 Harshut. Right. 16 00:01:30,770 --> 00:01:36,040 So welcome to this ninth session of the Empire Deep. 17 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,720 Oh sorry, Warhammer Deep types, it's been almost a year now. 18 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,000 We started in August, I think. Day. 19 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:50,360 Yep, Yep. So time flies and today we 20 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,880 reached the final action on the book. 21 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,960 We might do a few follow up episodes on the White Book and 22 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:06,960 maybe another one, but today it's all about scarce dwarfs and 23 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:13,520 we have a guest today, Ted, as our expert Chaos Dwarf 24 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,760 collector, player and painter. So maybe if you can just tell a 25 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,560 little bit about yourself, Ted, your involvement in the hobby, 26 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,320 and how you got into Chaos Dwarf specifically. 27 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,600 Well hi yes Ted is my name and I'm from Sweden as you probably 28 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:39,800 can hear by by accent. So my Warhammer journey started 29 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:47,240 in back in 1996 with the release of the 5th edition Warm Fantasy. 30 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:54,480 My brother has had just moved to the nearest town and just close 31 00:02:54,480 --> 00:03:00,440 to where he lived was a small shop that had Warhammer stuff. 32 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,840 It also had electric guitars and hockey trading cards. 33 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,680 So it was kind of an eclectic place, if you. 34 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,160 Yeah, it was very cool. Lots of cool older rocker guys 35 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,360 with leather jackets hanging. Yeah, it was great. 36 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,840 Did you fit into that category as well? 37 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:33,440 No, I was just 15 at the time, so I was just a kid. 38 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,600 So no, I was more of a nerdy, nerdy guy. 39 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,640 Yeah. So, well, he started hanging out 40 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:48,720 in that shop and he found out about Warhammer and well, we, he 41 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,840 introduced me to it and we bought the 5th edition starter 42 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:59,600 box together and he took the Britannians and I got Listen 43 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,520 Man, Yeah. And we played a few games, but I 44 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,720 never really connected with Listen Man at that time. 45 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,440 But I did later, but that's another story. 46 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,160 But so I started collecting orcs and goblins. 47 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:22,400 So I played with them against his Britannians. 48 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,400 And yeah, I lost a lot, as you can imagine. 49 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,480 The Britannians were were very powerful at the time. 50 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,880 Yeah. So, and then I started with Dark 51 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:43,680 Hills, actually collected a bit of those and then, well, we kind 52 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:49,160 of lost interest after a while. And when the 6th edition came 53 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,080 out, I actually switched over to 40K. 54 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,760 So I started playing that with my cousin and we yeah, did that 55 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,960 for a few years. So, and then I guess I kind of 56 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,840 got out of the hobby around 2008 or 9 or something like that. 57 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,880 But I, I never really left. But I was less into it by then. 58 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:23,400 And then when Age of Sigma rolled around in 2015, I, I felt 59 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,600 a bit sad that before my fan fantasy was dying. 60 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,880 And then I thought, yeah, maybe I should get back into it and 61 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:38,880 collect some old armies again. And well, that's when Chaos 62 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,800 Dwarfs was one of the armies I returned to. 63 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,560 I kind of always liked the look of them, even if I I never got 64 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,520 any back in the 90s. So. 65 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:56,960 I started. Yeah, back in 2015, were they 66 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,640 already like a costly only or were they still available little 67 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,600 reasonable. I mean, they weren't like cheap 68 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,520 or anything, but they were, I mean, pretty reasonable. 69 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:14,480 You could still find deals. I remember I picked up a great 70 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,920 Taurus new inbox for €30 on eBay. 71 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,600 I mean, that's. I think it's more like 300 now 72 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,160 if you want. Yeah, So, yeah. 73 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,320 And I mean, I, I picked up a few figures there, here and there. 74 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,520 And I mean, slowly it became the army I have today. 75 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,880 But I mean, now the prices are crazy. 76 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,520 So I I don't think I could do it now. 77 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:50,240 No, you definitely need to make a real investment if you want to 78 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,560 KS 4. Finally, genuine KS, no problem. 79 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,240 There are other ways of course, but yeah. 80 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,800 OK, so yeah, interesting to hear your story. 81 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,560 I think we all have somewhat similar, although it depends of 82 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,360 course when we got into it and how much we were playing during 83 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,560 the years up until now. So do you still have any of your 84 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,640 other armies? I know you have the some works 85 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,040 and stuff but have you kept all your old armies or? 86 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:26,240 Yes, I have most of my works from back in the day, and I also 87 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:31,800 have my dark house, my 4th edition Army that I'm planning 88 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:38,120 to repaint someday to improve upon my 90s paint job. 89 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:45,280 Yeah, and I have a few other armies, this one 40K. 90 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,000 And yeah, the Lizardman army I'm working on as well, but that's 91 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,680 more of a 6th, 7th edition. So you're able to keep basic for 92 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,120 a while longer if you want to paint. 93 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,360 I don't think I will run out anytime soon. 94 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,600 Yeah, I think that's also something that we share most of 95 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,400 us. OK, excellent. 96 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:15,000 So as usual, we going back a little bit in time and when we 97 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,720 do that we look to our expert of the really old days, Dave. 98 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:25,520 So what do you know and what can you tell us about the KS dwarfs 99 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,520 in 3rd edition? I guess? 100 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,920 Yes, you are experts. A loose title. 101 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:40,000 So the 4th as you cast Dwarf is kind of an odd beast in the they 102 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:46,480 did exist before, but they were little chaos warriors if that 103 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,240 sounds rude to them, but that's in effect what they were. 104 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,600 They were. They were dwarfs that were 105 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:55,840 turned during their lives to Chaos, whereas the Castorfs of 106 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,440 4th edition were born castorfs. They became like they became 107 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,000 girls at some point and then their ancestry became Chaos 108 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,800 Dwarves and then they were a race of Chaos dwarves. 109 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,160 So slightly different. OK so there were never any like 110 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,760 Chaos Dwarf nation in 3rd edition, no. 111 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,280 No, no, they were just dwarfs that well, they may be. 112 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,880 It was never named, it was never mentioned, it was never brought 113 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,080 up. Well, the part of the Chaos 114 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,320 Army. Yeah, the part of Chaos army. 115 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:32,000 So yeah, you know, well, so in Warhammer armies, no, you 116 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,200 couldn't. However, with the big orange 117 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,960 book of third edition, you could make whatever army you wanted if 118 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,840 you didn't use the army book. Yeah. 119 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,360 So kind of like you can with with 4th edition, your orange 120 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,400 book of 4th edition. Yeah but armies came out after 121 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,120 the original. Well not the original but after 122 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,240 third edition. So the idea was really you 123 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,680 either use ravening hordes from second edition or you just made 124 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:03,920 your armies up in 3rd edition up until the point they brought 125 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,800 Warhammer armies out. OK. 126 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,440 So you could, yeah, you can have an army of cast talks if you 127 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,800 wanted. You just used the the perfectly 128 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,280 valid rules for making your own army up in in. 129 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,880 But what was that? Did you have choice of many 130 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,080 units or was it just basically? No, you made you're not. 131 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:26,680 You make enough for that. You just invent, you know, you 132 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:30,440 always you know, and that's kind of the way that the third 133 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:35,600 edition worked anyway is until Warhammer armies came out, you 134 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,040 just made elite units. You just take a basic of that 135 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,240 race and then add on whether they were plus one elite, +2 136 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,000 elite, plus 3 elite or +4 elite. And each one of those elites 137 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,480 meant a different addition to stats and they stacked. 138 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,240 The first one would be say plus one to weapon skill. 139 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,600 That'd be a + 1 elite +2 elite. I think was was an extra point 140 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,520 of was either initiative or I think it was initiative. 141 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,960 And then every every sort of elite level that you put on 142 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,160 them, they'd get that bonus plus that levels. 143 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,840 You know, the previous plus that levels, But until you got to +4 144 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,080 where you got 2 attacks, they had no names. 145 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,800 They were just cursed Orson you give them, you know, you just 146 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,400 call them wherever you want to. And then Warhammer armies came 147 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,760 out and they were in the Chaos allies list. 148 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,080 So so you so war armies, you had the main army lists, you had a 149 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,280 section then of allies and a section of mercenaries from 150 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,560 different races. OK. 151 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,240 And the Chaos allies list could also be taken by Chaos wasn't 152 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,920 just so Chaos could have Chaos allies in effect. 153 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:43,480 OK, It's not just other races. You could have Chaos allies and 154 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,240 in those lists allowed you to take Chaos Goblins, which was 155 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,360 interesting, which were just basically goblins that had 156 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,280 succumbed to chaos. And you could also then take 157 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,560 Chaos Dwarf units and they just basically had warriors, 158 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,600 berserkers, which were their version of slayers. 159 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,320 You could have Chaos Dwarf Artery as well. 160 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,200 There was a mortar. I'll just go down. 161 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:16,720 I just I didn't open up the file. 162 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,320 Hold on, just bear with me. Just remind me. 163 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,320 Just going there. But interesting through through 164 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,760 white dwarf. They also really two other items 165 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:33,520 for for cowstwarfs, and that was there was chaos Dwarf crossed by 166 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:39,560 men and chaos. There was a cowstwarf swerve 167 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:42,880 gun, kind of like a zeal. Yeah, yeah. 168 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,840 Yeah, there was a bazooka as well for them, which I think 169 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,400 morphed into the Death Rocket. Yeah. 170 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,360 And then the mortar, obviously eventually it was a very small 171 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,800 mortar, but he eventually I guess morphed into the Earth 172 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,320 Shaker Canon because really, actually cannon is a mortar. 173 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,240 It's not really a a cannon, is it? 174 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,920 And then they had this really weird, these really weird war 175 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,880 machines that were pushed by cast wolf boar centers. 176 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,720 They weren't tenderizer Tenderizer. 177 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,720 There was a Juggernaut as well, and they were all pushed by, 178 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,000 there was a tenderizer juggernaut. 179 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,080 There's another one as well. I can't remember the other one, 180 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,240 but they're basically just these, if you kind of imagine, 181 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,840 you know, those sort of toys used to get that used to pull 182 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,440 back and push forward and then they'd go on their own. 183 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,040 But also sometimes they'd have like a fighting action. 184 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,520 It was that sort of ideas. The ball centres were pushing 185 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,560 these things along and the axle of the wheels was yeah, making 186 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:47,200 the weapons go. So, yeah. 187 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,160 So there was, there was one that did bashing and one that did 188 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,680 slicing basically. And they're quite cool. 189 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,960 You know, it was, it was a nice little thing. 190 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,120 And then also in Realms of Chaos, the first book, the 191 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,240 Slaves to Darkness. Yeah, the reddish orange one. 192 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,760 Depending on how old the book is, it's probably orange now. 193 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,880 They had Chaos horses being part of the Korn army. 194 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,280 They weren't part of any other army. 195 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,600 Although you could have character characters in other 196 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,360 armies because Chaos characters in rounds of Chaos were just all 197 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,960 over the place. They'd be absolutely. 198 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,320 Yeah. You know, you could have a cold 199 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,600 1 character. That's that's how weird it was. 200 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,880 Yeah, exactly. Completely random, but 201 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:41,120 Kerstort's as a as a included in in an army in the list was corn. 202 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,920 Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, they portrayed us angry 203 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,440 and buggers so. Yeah, well, and also the the 204 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,120 development that dwarfs didn't have magic, it kind of fits that 205 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,240 as well, that narrative. So. 206 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,880 And obviously they decided then to go for a different direction. 207 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,280 I'd always in my head, maybe I'm leaping my head here too much, 208 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,320 but in my head I'd always assumed that Chaos Force were an 209 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,920 indication the the the 4th issue in councils were an indication 210 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,200 that Brian was no longer involved in the business because 211 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,960 there's such a stark contrast to what councils were in 3rd. 212 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,240 But no, it turns out he was actually heavily involved in the 213 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,680 development of them. He he'd left the business, but 214 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:34,040 he was still being retained as a consultant. 215 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,880 Yeah, and I know there's some interview, I don't remember 216 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,880 who's holding it, but where he kept pushing for the bigger 217 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:42,720 hats. And yeah. 218 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,920 Bigger hats, bigger hats, bigger weapons, bigger hats. 219 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,880 Yeah, the various, they sort of thought, OK, we've got to go 220 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,120 overboard. So we keeping quiet now as he 221 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,840 said. Oh yeah, but. 222 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,040 I think that's a really interesting insight, because I'd 223 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,040 always assumed the more cartoonish look of stuff was the 224 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,360 departure from Brian's attitude to things. 225 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,160 And he's listed as a game design consultant in the book, so he 226 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,160 was involved. Oh, heavily, heavily. 227 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,240 It was, it was a project he initiated. 228 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,840 So they were initiated probably during third. 229 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:25,000 But you know, it's a really, really cool insight into what, 230 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,640 you know, Everyone I've done, everyone, certainly myself and 231 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,040 those that I'd spoken to. But at things like Boyle and old 232 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,600 Hammer events, if they Brian's there, we could have asked him. 233 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:35,800 Well, he's not anymore obviously, but he was there. 234 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,840 We could have asked him, but we'd always just assumed that it 235 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,440 was a complete departure from his attitude towards stuff and 236 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,080 it wasn't it actually. He was evolved in all of that, 237 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:50,120 which is a massive insight. And yes, the sign you talked 238 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,720 earlier about them being small KS wars. 239 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,160 And I think there are actually models that are in pairs. 240 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,600 There's a Chaos Warrior, and then there's an identical tiny 241 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,960 KS Warrior. Whether they're released at the 242 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,240 same time or they were a later edition, I don't know. 243 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:07,880 There are people out there that would definitely be able to 244 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,000 answer that question. I'm not sure. 245 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,079 But yeah, it's a very different time. 246 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:14,640 It's a very different look of Curse. 247 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,760 And I said I'm perfectly happy for the two to exist in the 248 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,359 Wuhan world at the same time. So you've got those that are a 249 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,640 race of chaos to wolves, and that's your big hats. 250 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,240 Then you've got those that have that have turned to chaos, you 251 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,760 know, same as a human would, you know, turn the, you know, take 252 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,080 them for me, say a warrior from the from your beloved empire and 253 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,320 say it's returned to chaos. Never happened. 254 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:43,280 Would it, you know, so yeah, no, I think there's room for both of 255 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,240 them in the world. And I love both versions. 256 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,680 I've I've I've only just kind of now, so I wouldn't say only, but 257 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,160 I I kind of had a love hate relationship with them. 258 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,680 They were a guilty secret for a while. 259 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,080 The the the cat cast also like them, but now I'm happy to 260 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,560 openly say I like both. Yeah, I think. 261 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,120 So yeah. And back then, did you play or 262 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,480 play against them? Did you encounter them as an 263 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:09,280 army? Not really. 264 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,280 Not really, because they were kind of just an offshoot that 265 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,320 people didn't really use that much of. 266 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,440 Because if you think about it, I mean, don't get wrong, Chaos 267 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,320 armies back then did have missile troops. 268 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,200 Yeah. So you could you could have 269 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,880 thugs with bows, crossbows and pistols. 270 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,720 And you could even give Chaos marauders, which at the time 271 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,440 were lesser Chaos warriors. They weren't the marauders of 272 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,360 5th edition and onwards. You give them crossbows as well, 273 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,400 which is crazy because they're very expensive. 274 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:42,440 So you what you do wasting But but so they did have missile 275 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,960 troops. But really the, the, the 276 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,640 principle for Chaos has always been get forward into combat as 277 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:54,000 quick as you can. So Chaos Dwarfs moving at 3 278 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,800 inches is maybe not the best, but then again, you've also got 279 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,760 chaos worries would have heavy armour and shield. 280 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,760 So they're probably moving at 3 inches. 281 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,280 So I guess actually it makes sense. 282 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,560 I've never really thought about it that much. 283 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,720 But no, I, I only really in 3rd edition. 284 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,640 I only really ever played my brother and we didn't have any. 285 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,800 So it's I have since seen them. Yeah, for sure. 286 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:21,440 Yeah, right. So and then they didn't have any 287 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,960 representation in the White Book rights, did they? 288 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,320 No 4th edition. No, I don't think they were. 289 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,840 I don't think they were even in the chaos list off the top lad. 290 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,040 No, I didn't. Yeah. 291 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,800 So there wasn't much going on and then? 292 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,000 But there was do you know what there was? 293 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:44,040 There was a Chaos Dwarf big hat picture in the chaos in the in 294 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,000 the rule book, in the orange rule book for four. 295 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,920 No one queried what the hell it was, though. 296 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,200 There's none among none amongst my friends. 297 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,000 No one said what's this so. That's the first representation 298 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:57,960 of the. Yeah, I think it was a Blanche 299 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,400 picture. Yeah, I think it was a Blanche 300 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,560 picture in, in, in the book. And no. 301 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,480 One came, yeah. So the seeds were there for 302 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:06,760 sure. You know, he'd obviously done 303 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,080 the concept art for them. It's on page 28. 304 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,400 I found it. Yeah, yeah. 305 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,720 No one ever went, oh, what's this? 306 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,760 If they did not, not that very bad. 307 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,480 There also wasn't the Internet. So I'm talking about a very 308 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,560 small base of people that are basing that, you know, 309 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:30,080 scientific answer on. That image is actually very 310 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,160 close to how they ended up later, so it's must be one of 311 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,960 the design artwork, yes? Yeah. 312 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:40,120 Good. Observation. 313 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:46,760 The White Book for sure. But I guess then they started 314 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,640 dropping some articles. Do we know about when the first 315 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,960 one came? The first one. 316 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:59,240 Yes, it was in issue 161 and that was May 1993. 317 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,840 And that's just the background and the best theory. 318 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,160 So that's quite early actually. It's about when, I don't know, 319 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,720 was it books or something came up to around there maybe? 320 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,400 It was round about, Yeah, it was round about the, the IT was, I 321 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,240 think it was between the, the orc and the dwarf release. 322 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,000 So in fact, the 22 dwarf in effect, the two dwarf on races 323 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,760 as it were released around about the same time. 324 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,120 It's interesting. I seem to remember, and I might 325 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:33,080 be, I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I seem to 326 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,280 remember that there was the previous issue to that, to the 327 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:38,480 one where they released the rules. 328 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,880 I seen there was a on the back cover. 329 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,200 There was a battle scene of Kerstals versus Hiles where it 330 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,720 might have been that same issue. I can't remember and be, but I, 331 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,520 and again, I'm not be inventing things for for the sake of 332 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,760 telling a good story here in my head, but in my head, I remember 333 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,880 that seeing that picture was really intriguing. 334 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,160 What are these? And then the next month, you 335 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,400 know, it drops and and you see their cursors. 336 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,440 I seem to I think. It's is this one. 337 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:09,720 Yeah. Is that the same issue? 338 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,960 The same issue is 165 I'm. Inventing it then? 339 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:14,360 Yeah. No, I'm inventing it. 340 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,520 And when that one came out, did they sort of explain how they 341 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,320 were going to introduce it? Did they talk anything about the 342 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,520 normally book or did they just talk? 343 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:32,360 About just say about there was there was no, there was no 344 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,680 stated plan to release a book for them at that point. 345 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,360 But the book came out much later or somewhat later. 346 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,240 Yeah, yeah. So it would be interesting to 347 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,800 know how. December 94. 348 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,160 Yeah, so it's the year and a half after at least. 349 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,520 It was during the gathering of my campaign They. 350 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,880 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I think it was 351 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,960 released in conjunction with the battle report they did with the 352 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,320 Drakenoff Gap one. Or is the month before they 353 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,960 released it and then they did the battle report. 354 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,080 I can't remember. It was roundabout. 355 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,280 Then they released the book. So has anyone heard any insight 356 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,280 about how or why it came about that they differed from the 357 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,320 other races? Why they didn't release a normal 358 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,440 army book? Why they want this route? 359 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,400 Maybe that's a question for. You it may be something to do 360 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,040 with what would later be called IP. 361 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,000 So maybe because Brian was it might be because Brian was 362 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:35,080 involved with them the they can maybe some something legally 363 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,800 they couldn't release them as a games work, Games Workshop, 364 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,040 Games Workshop product, if that makes sense, a full thing of 365 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,920 their brand. Maybe there was something 366 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,520 because he was a consultant on the they had to go through White 367 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,560 Dwarf, because that's whether I don't know. 368 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,640 I'm again I'm venting speculation. 369 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,080 Yeah. Does anyone have any other ideas 370 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,720 or about anything? No, no. 371 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,320 It's a Mr. to dissolve them, I guess. 372 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,880 And you know, in the end, maybe no one really knows. 373 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,720 It's been lost in time, but. Yeah. 374 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,840 Maybe it was just, maybe you just suggested to do it that way 375 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,600 and it happened that way, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 376 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,560 It was a very complete relief as well. 377 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,480 Like it's as exhaustive as there's a racist, so there's no 378 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,720 reason why not. Sometimes it will hard to bake 379 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,440 stuff but yeah it was fully baked. 380 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,360 Yeah, yeah. I mean the end result that we're 381 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:33,440 going to going to next the 4th edition book. 382 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,600 I mean, it doesn't differ that much from the other books. 383 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,360 In the end, it's quite similar, maybe a little bit, not the most 384 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,760 the biggest army list, but still a very similar product. 385 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,400 I. Mean you've got spells, you've 386 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,160 got quite a lot of stuff. I think. 387 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,320 I don't know the problems I need liking is the special 388 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,640 characters. To be fair, the the the more and 389 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,600 more the army books were released, the more similar it is 390 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,920 to them in the sense that by the time he gets like scathing and 391 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,400 undead, you almost don't need to buy the army book because a lot 392 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,760 of the stuff printed by dwarf. And and that's in fact what the 393 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,520 Castor Fabulous list is or it's kind of it's kind of a synergy 394 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,120 going on there in actual fact. I don't know if any of you 395 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,680 checked whether they are, but I think it's exactly the same. 396 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,360 Yeah, yeah. List wise, yeah. 397 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:36,680 They they add in the the sneaky gits, they add that in because 398 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,840 that's. Not the special character. 399 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,800 Because that came out later and and the. 400 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,640 Special character? Yeah, they were. 401 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,560 They were in White Dwarf, the special. 402 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,520 Just try Glass. Words. 403 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,200 Yeah, so they add a little bit. So it's not straight out of 404 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,360 White Dwarf 100% there's. A few extra things and maybe 405 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,920 some few pictures. Yeah, Astra got was actually in 406 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,360 White Dwarf. Yeah, 185, but that's the only 407 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,680 one. Yeah, but that's after the the 408 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,400 release of the book, isn't it? That one. 409 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,040 Yeah, it was in 95. Yeah. 410 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,440 Oh, OK. So that was. 411 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,320 I was reading Matt Matt just on Ted before we started the The 412 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,840 book was never released in France. 413 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,400 We only ever had. The. 414 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,680 Lists. It. 415 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,280 Was released in White Dwarf, You know #4 that's one of the very 416 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:33,120 first ones in June, July 93. At the pinnacle of their city is 417 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,880 the Temple of Hashat, the Father of Darkness. 418 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,360 Within the temple, it's guardians perform bloodthirsty 419 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,800 rites. Throwing captives into cauldrons 420 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:51,000 of boiling lead to the echoing laughter of the Chaos Dwarf 421 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,200 Sorcerers. On top of the temple stands the 422 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:03,120 hollow iron statue of Hashut, whose belly contains A blazing 423 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:10,480 furnace so that the God glows bright red with fiery heat. 424 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,280 From the Journal of Marcus Trevor. 425 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,880 Right. So we're back for the second 426 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:29,640 run, the deep type, and we will get into the actual army book or 427 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:35,160 the White dwarf percent book. So I guess you all have it. 428 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,600 I only have APDF version of it. So yeah. 429 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,600 So beginning with the background, they as we talked 430 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,480 about before, they got a sort of brand new description compared 431 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,960 to what they had in in 3rd edition when they were small KS 432 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,160 wolves, they were KS warriors and now they have a nation. 433 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,560 So anyone want to share the short version of the KS Wolf 434 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,040 lore? What were they about? 435 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,200 Yeah, I mean, I can share the the short version, not pun 436 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:18,440 intended. It's well it was in the the 437 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,040 before times when the dwarfs started moving N along the 438 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,920 world's edge mountains. Some of the dwarfs the most 439 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,720 adventurous or foolhardy, as it says in the book, they turned 440 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,400 east and then moved into the dark lands. 441 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:45,200 And then the was the coming of chaos and the world was swept up 442 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,920 in chaos invasions and the winds of magic blew all over the 443 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,960 place. So the the dwarfs of the West 444 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,760 fought the eastern dwarfs that they were lost and killed. 445 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,080 But that was not the case because as you know dwarfs are 446 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:08,160 very resistant to magic. So they were in instead, mutated 447 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:14,520 slightly, they got sharp teeth. And yeah, that was probably the 448 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:20,320 only physical change. And they formed their own 449 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:28,640 civilization in the Dark Lands. They built a great city called 450 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,320 Saran Lagrund or something like that. 451 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,800 And that's actually the only settlement they have, as it says 452 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,440 in the book. So they only have one city they 453 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,000 live in. And yeah, they started 454 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:50,560 worshipping a minor chaos God called Hashut, the father of 455 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,200 Darkness. And yeah, they started using 456 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:01,000 magic and they started working with the Greenskins. 457 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,280 Or, well, they enslaved them and used them as servants and 458 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,560 workers. And yeah, so they they created 459 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,360 an A unique civilization of their own. 460 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,960 Yeah. Excellent. 461 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:21,080 And when you look at the sort of the stacks of them, I think 462 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,040 there's a very clear sort of Babylonian Sumerian, yeah. 463 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,920 Syrian, Yeah. Assyrian or Babylonian? 464 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,360 Yeah. It's worth mentioning. 465 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,360 The. The the curse of the sorcerers 466 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,440 as well turn to stone when they practice magic for too long, and 467 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,480 they are the ones credited with creating the black ox. 468 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,800 Yeah, yeah. So maybe someone at TW like that 469 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,680 historical area and wanted to introduce a bit of that, Who 470 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,520 knows, but. Yeah, I can recommend the 471 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,160 interview with, as we mentioned for Rick Priestly and Alan 472 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,080 Perry, it's on YouTube. So if you search Chaos Dwarfs, 473 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,320 Rick Priestly, you should should find it. 474 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,960 So it seems like there it was Brian Ansel who wanted the the 475 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,800 imagery of the, yeah, Mesopotamian, Assyrian imagery. 476 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,720 And. Then we went to Alan Parry to 477 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,360 sculpt the range. So I I think Alan did nearly 478 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:38,200 everything with some help from Norman Swales on the war 479 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,760 machines, but otherwise I think Alan did everything. 480 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,760 Yeah, it's a good interview. So, OK, so if we're getting to 481 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,440 the actual list, you feel they start with the the sort of 482 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,960 standard characters. Maybe maybe we can have a little 483 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,920 word about the battle report. It's the classic one with the 484 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:08,440 Isles with all like the the right units from the the chaos 485 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,600 towards taking part like the lamassu, the Taurus, the earth 486 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,880 shaker, the centaurs. It's very entertaining game. 487 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,440 It's. It's very obviously one of the 488 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,000 advert ones, isn't it? It is very obviously, you know, 489 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,240 he took everything he possibly could that had painted up. 490 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,560 And yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's certainly a showcase. 491 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,960 And I think they won as well. Did they? 492 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:35,200 Yeah, they did. Yeah. 493 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,440 Yeah, I. Think that Gary Morley, who 494 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,120 placed the chaos towards, said in one of the interviews that, 495 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:48,600 well, it was sort of made-up the battle report so that the case 496 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,840 to us would win. But, well, I don't know if it's 497 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:51,840 the truth. What? 498 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,000 Yeah, like the sort of how the battle ports were actually 499 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,360 played out. So I had some different versions 500 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,720 of those if they played it as they came or if they actually 501 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,920 just sort of directed everything to get the result they. 502 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,520 Were I think they mentioned they played a couple of test games 503 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,920 and then yeah. Yeah. 504 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,840 And I mean, I know there's the where they said that the first 505 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,640 game to 1 sided result and they had to do it again because it's 506 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,480 really show well. So maybe a combination of that, 507 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,480 but yeah. There's a very cool there was a 508 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,720 very cool duel between a high high L high L Florida and 509 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,000 Griffin and the the lamas SUS also. 510 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,600 Yeah, I've got no idea how that was it as long as it did. 511 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,360 That should be over very quickly, that duel. 512 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,200 Yeah, it's a good one. And we talked a little bit about 513 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,880 that before we just started, me and Ted, that they were featured 514 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,240 quite heavily in the White Wolf battle, reports the UK's Wolves. 515 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,040 Yeah, it was actually 55 Battle reports during 4th edition, so 516 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,080 that's quite a lot. Yeah. 517 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,000 So they were very popular in that sense and I don't know, 518 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,120 maybe someone liked to play them or they wanted to showcase the 519 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,719 army for whatever reason. But yeah, it's an interesting 520 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,719 observation. It might be the other way 521 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:27,360 around, that no one bought them. There's these guys as well. 522 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,639 It very much divided the fan base at the time because of that 523 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,840 stark change and because it was very cartoony. 524 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,159 So it was kind of you either loved them or you hated them at 525 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,320 the time. So it could have been simply, 526 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:44,719 you know, trying to generate interest. 527 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,120 Yeah. And I mean we obviously I don't 528 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,000 think there's any kind of sales numbers anywhere, but suppose 529 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,760 the reason why they are quite expensive on how to get today is 530 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,160 that they weren't selling well back in the days that there's 531 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:02,040 not that many miniatures in circulation so well. 532 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,560 They were. They were, you know, until they 533 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,200 brought out the Castelf Warrior. Well, no, plastics weren't 534 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,240 there. I mean, there was the Black 535 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:11,920 Hawk, I guess, as well the, the plasma. 536 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,400 I don't think those sold sold particularly well. 537 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,240 Plastic Black Hawk because it was, it's not a natural pose 538 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,640 that Black Hawk's in, is it? So it's one race. 539 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,880 I mean, having a mixture of poses. 540 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,760 What? But having that kind of thing 541 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,640 just really just doesn't quite work. 542 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,120 It's like the gym class, an IOB class or something. 543 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,640 I I just painted the whole unit so I I know that goes in and 544 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,720 out. Yeah, I I've got quite a few in 545 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,840 a unit of castles. It's really not castles, sorry. 546 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,360 Black Hawks dotted around to break up the you know, the other 547 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,080 models as well and it works that way and the and the plastic 548 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,480 castle that works because he's a natural pose. 549 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,200 He's kind of just stood to attention in effect. 550 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:03,760 But you know, you're you're paying a lot of money for 551 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,120 hobgoblin who's worth very little. 552 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,840 I say a lot of money. It's still the same as any other 553 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:08,800 race. But you know, if you buy a 554 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,280 packet of dwarfs, that's more points than a packet of goblins. 555 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,480 And you're saying playing virtually, Sorry, hobgoblins 556 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,920 paying virtually the same because they because goblins. 557 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,760 At least you've got an extra goblin in the packet getting the 558 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:21,680 blister. Yeah. 559 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:22,680 Hobgoblins. You didn't. 560 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,280 It was the same number as you'd get in the council. 561 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,000 So why would you buy hobgoblins? Yeah. 562 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,240 You know, yes, OK to have them, but we're back in the day with 563 00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:32,040 kids trying to get most bang for a buck. 564 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,800 Yeah, of course, of course. So you're probably not going to 565 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,320 buy that many metal hobgoblins. So I think there's that involved 566 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,480 in it as well. Yeah, probably a combination of 567 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,120 factors, but yeah, probably not the most popular only at the 568 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,680 time. Yeah, nostalgic race, isn't it? 569 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,920 It's looking back fondly and wanting them because you haven't 570 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,000 got them. Yeah. 571 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:07,880 Yeah, I one of the few armies I have not started at all, but 572 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,440 maybe one day, who knows. But as Ted said, going into it 573 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,600 now, buying an entire castle for me, that's going to be there, 574 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,320 so. Well, that that's where you get 575 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,720 into the realm of the 3D printing stuff, isn't it? 576 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,520 And the designers who have done stuff that's very similar. 577 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,960 Yes. Very, very similar, but not 578 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,280 quite the same. Which almost gets you that right 579 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,720 hit. It's not quite there because 580 00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:41,120 it's not the original models, but it's so close that you know 581 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,520 you you can say right? These will do until I can get 582 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,440 around to getting a problem. Yeah, exactly. 583 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,240 Win lottery or whatever you know come across. 584 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,360 Yeah. And I mean, depending on what 585 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,040 you're actually aiming for, if you want the 100% genuine thing, 586 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,680 then that's you want. But obviously it's there's room 587 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,240 for other solutions that would work perfectly well if that's 588 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:13,600 what you want, right? So should we get into the list 589 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:14,320 then? Maybe. 590 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,400 So as producer general, yes, the standard one, but they actually 591 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,760 have two choices there. That's a little bit. 592 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,520 Not everyone has that one, but you can actually have your 593 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,920 sorcerer Lord as a general. Who else does? 594 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,440 Are there any that are this game and can have a grace here as a 595 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:38,320 general? No, no. 596 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,840 Well, obviously there's undead that have a choice of three 597 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,680 different generals, but aside from that, it's, it's a Lord 598 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,920 option for, for everybody. I say a hero Lord option. 599 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,960 Obviously you've got multiple different hero Lord options for, 600 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,560 for goblins and, and orcs. But overall it's yeah, it's got 601 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,720 to be a fighting general, as it were, as opposed to a wizard 602 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,440 general, which is weird because I, I mean, I'm but happy if if 603 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,040 someone were to say to me, you know, when I have wizard as my 604 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,320 general, I've not got an issue with that. 605 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,120 No, I I don't know if there's, if there's points fact in 606 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,800 factored in for the, you know, for being a general to a Lord. 607 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,440 I don't know. No, it's the same points cost as 608 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,080 a a sorcerer Lord. So what means for for if? 609 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,040 I mean a. Lord for every single race, the 610 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,120 points cost they've worked out for every single race when when 611 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,080 you do the Lord if that's factored into the cost or not. 612 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,760 I don't think it is. So therefore just give the rule 613 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,320 to someone else you know, just choose you it's. 614 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,320 Just a fixed multiplier every time. 615 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,480 So it's I don't think so. Yeah, yeah. 616 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,040 So for you, what's? What's interesting is that also 617 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,800 you can't have bulk centre Lord as your general. 618 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,800 I don't. Need something that you can 619 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,880 easily that you should really home rule, but it's it's not 620 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,040 under the general entry, no. It's not and they're they're 621 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,240 only the and and that's the other interesting thing as well 622 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:14,000 is they and dwarfs at the time were the only armies that could 623 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,920 have a Lord level character that wasn't well sorry not a wizard. 624 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,280 Obviously Wizards are different but a hero type Lord level 625 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,280 character that isn't your general Because dwarfs could 626 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:29,640 have a demon Slayer. All the rest hero have one Lord 627 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,160 rest for heroes and champions. Chaos with like Centaur Lord. 628 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,400 Yeah, that's later on. That's that. 629 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:38,920 That comes out a few months later. 630 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,920 I mean at the time, literally, you know when when the books are 631 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,920 released. I suppose you get away with it 632 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,960 with special characters, but that's the only way you could 633 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,880 have additional hero type Lords for other races. 634 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,440 That one's your general, yeah. Yeah. 635 00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:01,640 So you guys who are playing now, do you usually do a a sorcerer 636 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,880 Lord as a general or a normal Lord? 637 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,640 Which which one do you prefer? Well I do a bull Centaur Lord so 638 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:13,200 I I cheat. Someone wants the best. 639 00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,960 And. Well, well, I haven't really 640 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,040 played a lot of it, but I would probably take the sorcerer. 641 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,600 I mean, if you wanted a combat Lord, I would probably take a 642 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,880 bull Centaur instead. I mean, it's it's. 643 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,560 Better. Yeah, yeah. 644 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,640 I mean, the the normal Lord is it's OK, I think, I guess. 645 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,280 But I mean there are better choices if you want the combat 646 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,640 law. Yeah, I guess if you want to. 647 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,920 You've got the torus option always, which is fun and fluffy 648 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:53,200 and. If you wanted flying, you don't 649 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,480 have too much choice. I guess you. 650 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,120 Yeah. It would be interesting to have 651 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,480 a old centre Nord on a flying now but. 652 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:03,360 I know you can't. That's maybe. 653 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,920 Stretching it a bit too much. I look a bit wrong as well of. 654 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,480 Course, or you could have you could have a chaos dwarf Lord on 655 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:13,560 the centre. Lord maybe? 656 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,240 But but that's actually one of the cool differences between 657 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:21,760 Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs, that the Chaos Dwarfs can actually 658 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:27,000 ride monsters. Yeah, well, and and have magic. 659 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,280 Yeah. And and Orcs and goffling 660 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,080 allies. Yeah, there's quite a lot. 661 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,840 This is the thing when we were talking about this initially 662 00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:38,720 doing the castle book, like we're, it sounds like we're 663 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,760 messaging each other. It's like, how do you play with 664 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,040 castle? Because none of us have played 665 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,440 with castles, so how do you play with them? 666 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,480 I'm like, I guess it's a bit like a dwarf farm really. 667 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,200 Well, except they have magic and they have cheap troops. 668 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,920 OK, Nothing like a dwarf farm. Cavalry as well, yes. 669 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,040 Exactly. Yeah, it's the there. 670 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,000 There's a lot of differences. None of the weaknesses really, 671 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,360 right? So you have those two choices 672 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,560 for Deano, then you have actually 2 choices for. 673 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,040 Should we should we talk about the monsters while we're here as 674 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,000 well? The Great. 675 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,880 We could do that. And the Lamassu, yes. 676 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,720 So the great Taurus is 225 points. 677 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,640 It has four up arms, tape and a string 3 flaming attack. 678 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,360 So we use the flame template and it lies of course and it causes 679 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,760 terror when? And then the Lamassu is cheaper 680 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:44,000 at 200 points and you get a four plus dispelled roll and -1 to 681 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,480 hit with magic weapons. So anyone attacking the 682 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,360 creature. It's -1 the lamas 3 has definite 683 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,720 7 as well, which makes it. So it's immune to string 3 684 00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:56,600 attacks. Right. 685 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,160 Yes, but only three attacks. Yes, yes, yes. 686 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:07,280 It has, yeah, fewer attacks and initiative, but yeah, it's 687 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,120 probably the better choice I would say. 688 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,080 I've always found the the whole breath attack for a really big 689 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,360 nasty monster a complete waste of time unless, unless 690 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,360 especially if you're a flying one, because if you're flying, 691 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,240 you're probably better off getting into combat because I 692 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:27,200 think your combat attacks are probably better like a dragon 693 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,800 combat attacks are much better than the the than its breath 694 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,280 attack. OK, you've got the argument 695 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,880 about the ice dragon, white dragon, ice dragon freezing 696 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:35,960 things. Yeah, that's useful. 697 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,600 But generally speaking, you're probably better off getting into 698 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,440 combat than than standing off and and blasting with a strength 699 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,480 three attack. You know, normally you've 700 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,440 probably got something riding, you know, most ball central, not 701 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,240 ball central, Sorry, ball tauruses have got a cursed wolf 702 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,920 Lord or something riding them probably. 703 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:58,400 So add their attacks to the ball to the to the ball tauruses 704 00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:59,600 attacks. You're probably better off just 705 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,360 in combat, aren't? You so maybe maybe a rule point 706 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,720 and I can't like right now really can't remember, but I've 707 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,480 seen people use the breath attack in close combat. 708 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:14,440 No, no, no, no as Dragons only. Dragons can do that. 709 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,280 Later. Yeah, in later on there's an 710 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:18,720 article. In one from the White Dwarf. 711 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,280 Do that, yeah. Yeah. 712 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,000 There's no comment that they can do it. 713 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,800 I've definitely, but because like the the wording is not very 714 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,880 clear and I've definitely been on the receiving end of close 715 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:37,680 combat flames from Great Taurus. I mean, the house rule, that's 716 00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:41,000 everything that goes, but spring it on your opponent, you know, 717 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,400 the new opponent, maybe that's not entirely fair. 718 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,240 So yeah, not by the rules. That that that could justify why 719 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,000 it's more expensive than the Landmaster rule. 720 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,040 I guess so, yeah. OK. 721 00:45:53,400 --> 00:46:01,920 All right. Could be, and As for monsters, 722 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,840 the case will still sort of have the full spread of choices, so 723 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,520 they could. Yeah, sorry, I'm I'm still stuck 724 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,080 on that, but I'm looking like the Grey Taurus is just under, 725 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,840 just over the griffon in the entry and I'm basically the same 726 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,000 stats but the Grey Taurus is 75 points more expensive though. 727 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,080 You guys are at 4:00 so I'm a save though. 728 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,840 Not sure but that that that's not worth 75 points. 729 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,360 I mean it does have a brother chat but anyway. 730 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,320 That's just, that's just a thought. 731 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,200 Maybe something we can ask the the hive mind into, Yeah. 732 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:36,400 Yeah. We're going to have a few 733 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,800 questions. Yeah. 734 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,480 And I mean those. Well, Oh no, it's always got 735 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,000 better weapon skill. It's. 736 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,240 Got an extra point of toughness as well. 737 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,480 So I think there's probably yeah. 738 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,280 And toughness, yeah. So, so in fact, toughness is 739 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,040 worth quite a lot. An extra point, it's up going up 740 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,640 from 5:00 to 6:00. That's worth quite a lot. 741 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,840 So I think that's a fair Yeah, I think that's that's a fair 742 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,600 increase of points there. I think personally that's my my 743 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:08,760 opinion only though. So the the thing I've never seen 744 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:13,280 though is because we've been a bit formatted I think by the 745 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,880 means the releases like a general on Lamassura, you always 746 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,600 see them on great tourists and you always see the Stosur on the 747 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,240 on the Lamassura that never was around, Yeah. 748 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,040 I'd have thought you could probably say easy enough 749 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,440 conversion, isn't it? Of course, of course, I just, 750 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,200 I've never seen it, but. No, I think I thought about that 751 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,320 as well, that I actually, I have thought that they were limited, 752 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,040 but that's not the case. So they can choose whatever they 753 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,640 want really. Yeah. 754 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,640 And then, and then I guess there is there's a point to the flame 755 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,840 attack because you don't necessarily want to put your 756 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,120 Wizards into close combat. Yes. 757 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,400 Yeah, it's pretty the other way round, actually. 758 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,560 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. 759 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:59,520 We need more means than small. Commission. 760 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:03,960 Yeah. So I guess the, if you want, are 761 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,720 using monsters, you usually do one of those because they are 762 00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:10,560 available, but you could do any of the other ones that are 763 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,680 around. So there's a whole bunch of 764 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,200 choices, of course, the Dragons and camaras and whatnot. 765 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,000 I, I, I, I think there's something a bit psychological 766 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,280 about the these two monsters, because in most armies, for your 767 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,120 average, I don't know, it's 3000 point games, you maybe have one 768 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,280 monster, but it's very common, kills our families to see both 769 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,080 on the table at the same time and they do some very good work. 770 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,000 Yeah, I think that comes back down to, you know, availability 771 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,920 of what models there were. Absolutely. 772 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,840 Yeah. The range is really limited. 773 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,120 Yeah. And bulk it up and go. 774 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,600 Oh, and they can have slave Hawks and goblins as well in 775 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,000 order to bulk it. It's very convenient that one, 776 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,880 isn't it? So I think I was down to that is 777 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,120 because there aren't huge amounts of models out there, you 778 00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,960 know, and they only released ones on foot slightly. 779 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,640 I think thousands thought there were a few, but I. 780 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,000 Don't know. We said that. 781 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:08,680 That's like you've got how many units you have, like 678 units. 782 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,640 That's not so few compared to the races. 783 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,560 Yeah, but bear in mind that Black Hawks, Hawks Goblins. 784 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:19,640 No, I'm not. I'm not counting. 785 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:21,120 Oh, OK. All right. 786 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,000 I count Black Horse. Just Black Horse. 787 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,000 OK, sneaky gets one in the original list, so that's added 788 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,000 in as well. So I think they did do work to 789 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,680 increase, you know, to to increase options. 790 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,320 But initially it's very slight army list that they bulked out 791 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:41,400 with orcs and goblins. So, you know, they they could 792 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,760 very easily put like as you could argue this for every for 793 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,560 any race. They could easily put just like 794 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,440 had Chaos Dwarfs and then had the option of either, you know, 795 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,320 great dull headed axe or a blunderbuss. 796 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,840 You know, I mean, you can argue that for most races that they 797 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,000 could easily, you know, merge and later on obviously that they 798 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,160 probably did another in later editions. 799 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,480 We could easily just have like for example, Hiles. 800 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,440 You could easily have just militia and give them either 801 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:10,000 Spears or bows. Yeah, but I, I definitely think 802 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,000 that Cares was one of those that you really expected to be a 803 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,600 monster in the list, at least one. 804 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,600 I think it's pretty rare that you have an army where you don't 805 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,560 have at least one monster. Yeah, well, they're they're 806 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,040 certainly not. If not the flagship, they are 807 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,400 certainly the epitome of 4th edition. 808 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:34,520 They are the Hero Hammer Army, aren't they? 809 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,720 Yes, yes, yes, yeah. They're they're, they're 810 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:44,520 certainly the the poster boys. Yep. 811 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:52,080 OK, So should we try to come on in the list here? 812 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,160 That's standard. You can have a case of Wolf of 813 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,000 course, but you can also have a Bull Santor battle standard, 814 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,640 which I mean is good in the sense you get a slightly more 815 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,840 durable. Yeah. 816 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,640 Yeah. So I guess because that's, I 817 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:16,080 mean, if you look at BS, BS in general, that's I suppose the 818 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,200 main issue that they die very easily. 819 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,840 And you know, that's often an heavy investment if you put a 820 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,000 Magic banner on it. So maybe that's a good idea 821 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,560 sometimes to have something like that. 822 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,000 Yeah, I mean, it's the trouble with if you give a magic banner, 823 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,400 then you're not protecting them anymore, are you? 824 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:38,160 So, you know, if you put the boys investment on something 825 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,640 like, you know, on Reacher Kion or armour protection, armour 826 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:43,280 fortune, something like that, then that's where your points 827 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,480 are going. They're not going into the Magic 828 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,560 Banner. Yeah, they're they're they're 829 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,160 battle standards. Obviously I play skaving a lot. 830 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:53,960 For me, battle standards are really important. 831 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,640 I think a race, yeah. Some races you can avoid having 832 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,400 them and save the points because they're not necessarily worth 833 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:05,840 the event. It's like a trade off of what 834 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,040 you do with your points, obviously. 835 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,040 Are they worth it? High high leach barbers. 836 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,440 You can probably get away without having one. 837 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,240 Yeah, one, one thing to note here is that the army only has 838 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:19,760 access to two magic banner options. 839 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,800 So it's the chaos of warriors and the bull centres and of 840 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:26,320 course the better standard bearers. 841 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,440 So you can maximum have three magic banners I. 842 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:32,800 Mean you can have several units of each. 843 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,640 No, but only one unit can. Have. 844 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,040 Yeah, sorry. Yes, yeah. 845 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,720 So yeah. So you have two units in your 846 00:52:41,720 --> 00:52:49,480 army that are huge, One huge in, Yeah. 847 00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:55,320 But I mean double. Centauri is 156 points for the 848 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,200 battle standard bearer, so it's quite an investment. 849 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,880 Yeah, yeah. It is, yeah, but it can make it 850 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,000 cool. Centrepiece. 851 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:04,880 I don't think. Were there any? 852 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:10,160 Yeah, there was a standard. Standard bearer, yeah. 853 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,160 It was a pretty magnificent standard bearer as well. 854 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,440 You'll see a very big banner on him. 855 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,600 So yeah, he could easily be a centerpiece. 856 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:20,720 Yeah. Yeah. 857 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:22,880 Well, we're saying that obviously centrepiece in an army 858 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,520 that also has a Lamassu and a Bull Taurus. 859 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,800 So yeah, yeah. But they they they probably take 860 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,320 the eye a bit more than the battle standard. 861 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,200 You have to go, you have to be going some to make a battle 862 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,760 standard the the centrepiece in an army that's got those two. 863 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,320 Ah. Well, you can make it very. 864 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:42,520 Big. I've done that so right. 865 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,200 So we talked a little bit about the Bull Central launch choice 866 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,000 also a quite a heavy investment, but. 867 00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:57,800 It's quite powerful movement 8 weapons goes 7, Strength 5, 868 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,800 toughness 5, ball wounds, initiative 6 and five attacks. 869 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,040 Well, he. Can he can some damage, but 870 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,320 he's. Three magic items so it can be 871 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:10,800 put the kids to this world of course. 872 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,440 So yeah, can be quite a beast in the end. 873 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:20,720 So do you guys have experience from doing some nasty both 874 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,920 centre Lords? Well, well, not a Sally Nasty. 875 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,760 I tend to play big games or 45000 points so you know, it's 876 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,680 if it's less steep, but in smaller game it's difficult to I 877 00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:36,000 think. Yeah. 878 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,080 So do you usually get exactly your investment on a both settle 879 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:46,680 or do they perform Leo it's a. Difficult question to think 880 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,840 Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I mean, so is the problem when 881 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,360 you have 500 points minutes, sometimes you just spend the 882 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,720 game like run the route not doing anything or defeating one 883 00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:58,680 small unit. And other times they kill and 884 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,360 then in general and the source or nod and they, they, they call 885 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,360 1000 points of damage and it's, it's worth it. 886 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,120 So it's, it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell. 887 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,120 I, I did mine. I, I cut off the guy from the 888 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:17,720 great Torus and I stuck him on the Oh no, I, I cut his, his 889 00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:23,600 helmet and stuck it on one of the Mrs. hat, his big hat, stuck 890 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,360 it on one of the the book's centaurs with the big double 891 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:34,840 back banner and I just love it. We need to display that on the 892 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,560 forum if you haven't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 893 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,880 That's it. Yeah, but I mean he he's got 894 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,280 moments of eight, so he has the possibility to get get into it. 895 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,400 So that's nice, right. So let's see if we can finish up 896 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,480 the characters at least in this session. 897 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,040 We have the heroes, we have three choices. 898 00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:02,080 The hope government pops up. Otherwise, I guess the KS Dwarfs 899 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,400 and Bold Settles are his standard heroes for their race, 900 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:11,160 but it's the Hobgoblin a good choice as a hero. 901 00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,440 Well, he's only 59 points, so he wants someone carrying around 902 00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,720 magic items. I could maybe for that purpose. 903 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,920 But he's kind of halt somewhere between a goblin hero and org 904 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,800 hero if an org hero is kind of a bit basic. 905 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:33,480 Yeah, it's more like a human hero. 906 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:34,600 Yeah. Like a human. 907 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:35,640 Yeah. Slowly. 908 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:37,000 Lower leadership. Yeah. 909 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,280 Yeah, it's slow and not charismatic human hero. 910 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,320 Why not? Like it's not a lot of money. 911 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,240 Yeah, we will speak about the Hope cobblings later, but just 912 00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:55,160 Hope cobblings are more you need people include for nostalgia 913 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:56,200 than anything else. Maybe. 914 00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,000 Yeah, you can always put him on a wolf. 915 00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,440 Yeah, so the, the the walls are very good. 916 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,000 The walls are very good. What's interesting is that there 917 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:11,000 is no upcoming Lord option except the special character. 918 00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:16,160 He cannot be your general, sadly enough. 919 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:22,200 Wow. Could be fun, we could be 920 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,480 upcoming. In our army. 921 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:30,320 But one thing I, I, I noticed it, it's that the Bull Centre 922 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:37,760 hero is like a Lord from other races, more or less, because he 923 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,320 has the extra wound. So he's has three wounds. 924 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,360 So he's quite powerful. Quite expensive still. 925 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:51,040 Very expensive, you know. Yeah, so I, I, I tend to use the 926 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:55,920 bull centre Lord as a as a fun character, but the hero rarely 927 00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:59,960 and the the champion almost never because it's too 928 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,600 expensive. Yeah, and talking about 929 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,840 champions, there's actually six different choices, as you would 930 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,200 expect, because most units can have a champion choice. 931 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:17,040 So there's Kezwolf, Bull Centre, Hobgoblin or Black Hawk and 932 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,160 Goblin, and I suppose the Orking goblin. 933 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:25,240 They are exactly like normal champion in the sense. 934 00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,280 So if you want a really, really cheap character you can go for 935 00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,360 an Orc goblin champion for 50 points and you can still slap 936 00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:39,240 some sort of magic trick on him. I suppose so. 937 00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,520 Yeah, I mean, you can't include it in your chaos of warriors, 938 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,720 but. Yeah, Yeah, they do. 939 00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:47,720 Yeah, that would be a bit weird, but. 940 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,400 Yeah, I suppose we'd think about the ox and the global entire 941 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,160 don't use them and kill for our farmers. 942 00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,360 You could stick him in curse dwarf armour so he's masquerade. 943 00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:03,480 He's a. Very just need a big hat. 944 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,000 Yeah, that's an interesting plan. 945 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,000 I think you'll need to house through that one if you want. 946 00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,800 Yeah, look, I I'm looking at the list doesn't doesn't really say 947 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,560 that you need to be the same race for the champion race I. 948 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:23,440 Must say it somewhere, surely? Yeah, I'm looking for that. 949 00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,840 You found a loophole or maybe that's more stating the the 950 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,360 general rule, but but. It's not something that most 951 00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,960 people would do, but technically yes. 952 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:43,160 Doesn't say it, doesn't say it. Yeah, you should try that part 953 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:44,680 and see what your opponent takes. 954 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,320 Yep. So any. 955 00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,760 Other I mean, I mean like obviously you wouldn't include 956 00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,680 the goblin champion in a chaos dwarf for yours unit, but like a 957 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:57,000 chaos dwarf champion in Orc or Blackhawk units that wouldn't be 958 00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,760 out of character make them. Slow them down. 959 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:05,600 Though, Yes, yes, of course. But like, yeah, yeah, champion. 960 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,560 So that's why you should use a Hope goblin hero in a chaos 961 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:15,240 trophy unit he can keep. Up, yes, that's the problem, 962 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,200 right? So any other ideas on champions? 963 01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,680 Who do you always include them in the units? 964 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:31,640 Maybe yes, maybe for blunder buses for Chaos loaf warriors 965 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,240 than to go for hero, maybe with a sorcerer. 966 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,520 Not not for book centres. They're too expensive. 967 01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:43,880 So book centres tend to be led by the Lord sometimes, sometimes 968 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,120 a hero. And the the the OP goblins. 969 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,760 It's supposed going for a hero for that price. 970 01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:52,560 Yeah, I agree that that seems logical. 971 01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,720 Yeah, and if I guess if you would have a few units of 972 01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,320 goblins for example, you I swap throw in the Champions doesn't 973 01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:06,000 cost. 15 points, yeah. Yeah, what what feels like the 974 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:10,400 most roughy choice, maybe like a sort of hop gobbling oversea or 975 01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,480 something that's and then some people use that to cancel out 976 01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,560 anyone CTV. This. 977 01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,000 Yeah, he's underhanded. Yeah, sure. 978 01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:31,680 And then the final character choice is the sorcerer, and 979 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:36,440 that's only available in the as a case of, you know, loud ex 980 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,360 goblins also. And I think that could have been 981 01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,280 maybe a bit out of character. So no. 982 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,320 I think there's argument to have whole goblin shaman I think. 983 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,560 Yes, I agree. I quite agree with that. 984 01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,040 And that's something that I've house ruled in the past. 985 01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,240 I guess in in the book, it's a pain in the ass. 986 01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,920 You've got to put the, you might have put the wag rules in and do 987 01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:59,640 they use Wag magic, use dark magic? 988 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:04,920 Do they use Castor magic? I suppose it's from a what you 989 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:06,360 include in the book point of view. 990 01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:10,400 Well, they would have bulked the book out is, you know, can we be 991 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,080 bothered doing that? That might have been a yes. 992 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:15,760 Yes, yes, it's an extra model to scout. 993 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:23,480 We've used, I've used Wag. Yeah, that makes sense, but 994 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,000 obviously I guess the hand of court could only work on goblin 995 01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,920 goblinoids, I assume. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. 996 01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,120 Because otherwise you get, you're getting those curse tools 997 01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:42,560 moving back very quickly. So we don't have too much time 998 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:48,960 for this session, but do we do the KS dwarf magic next time? 999 01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,440 Next session? I suppose maybe too short to do 1000 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:58,920 it in 2 minutes, but what do you think about the the KS sources 1001 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:00,800 do? Is it an auto include to have at 1002 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:04,440 least one cost or yes? Sure, I mean in the same way as 1003 01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,560 also races. Yeah. 1004 01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:10,320 Boom, boom, boom, Yeah. They have toughest 5 as well. 1005 01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:12,840 Yeah, so. They're they're quite tough. 1006 01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:20,000 Yeah, yeah of course that's in all both edition armies. 1007 01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,760 You don't really want to be caught with no cost if your 1008 01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:29,240 enemy has one, but can be bad since you can cast in both 1009 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:36,400 players tasks. Zata and the Black Commander of 1010 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:42,040 the Tower of Tsar orders that 1000 swords be made of good 1011 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:49,200 black iron, 1000 corselets of Ruddy bronze, 1000 arrowheads of 1012 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:56,680 five shekels of steel, and 10,000 of 2 shekels, and that 1013 01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:02,680 this be delivered to the fortress of Tsar when the moon 1014 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:08,040 is full. Let it be known that Zatan 1015 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:13,760 plunders to the West and returns within the month with slaves for 1016 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:20,040 the service of Harshut. So say I, Zatan, the Black 1017 01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:25,840 commander of the Tower of Tsar. Glory to Zatan, glory to Gorth 1018 01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:30,160 the cruel. All praise Harshut, Father of 1019 01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:34,160 Darkness. Right. 1020 01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:40,040 So after this short break, we're back and we will get into, I 1021 01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:43,320 believe we finished talking about these standard characters. 1022 01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:51,760 So we will start looking at the troop choices and the first one 1023 01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,040 is of course the standard Castle Boreal. 1024 01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:00,800 So ideas about those I guess that point. 1025 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:08,040 Yeah, you have to include at least one unit and they are 14 1026 01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:11,560 points each. So they have double handed 1027 01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,920 weapons, heavy armor and Shields. 1028 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:20,800 No options unless that one unit can take take a magic banner. 1029 01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,720 Yeah. And are they? 1030 01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:29,360 I guess they are identical to a standard dwarf in the name. 1031 01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:33,120 Yes. Yeah, and point wise to use the 1032 01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,680 the Dwarf warrior, are they the same or does it differ, do you 1033 01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:40,320 know? Yes, they are the same. 1034 01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:44,760 They start at eight points and then three for the three are 1035 01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,720 more ones for the sheets, 2 for the double 100 axes. 1036 01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:52,000 OK, Yeah. So that's 14 so that that's one 1037 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:59,400 where I was I've always allowed, which was halberds because 1038 01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:01,360 double handed weapon. And that's going to be partially 1039 01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,320 the case for the bolts and toes can be a drag. 1040 01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,480 So on the chaos dwarf wires, not so much to a problem. 1041 01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,400 The good initiative to the heat last anyway. 1042 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,920 So that's that's OK. But it's quite rare to have 1043 01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,800 models where the only options they have like base units is 1044 01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,720 double handed weapon. Especially for like a core unit 1045 01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,920 as well. Yes, yeah, exactly. 1046 01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,160 You know you often have them on specialities like from Dwarf, 1047 01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:28,960 Scott mine is that how come with them standard? 1048 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,240 Yes, I. Mean I mean you do have the 1049 01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,200 option of running using your hand weapon if you wanted to. 1050 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:39,720 Store store. But most people. 1051 01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:44,240 I mean, we should charge maybe, but I I see, I think the 1052 01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,960 especially the look of the weapons it look like halbers 1053 01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:52,760 make like double ended axis. So it's saying it's very, it's, 1054 01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:54,480 it's a very reasonable option to give them. 1055 01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,840 There's an argument they're pretty much the same thing 1056 01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,080 anyway, isn't there? The double handed axe and. 1057 01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:03,400 Howard, the charge is the different. 1058 01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:08,960 Yeah, I mean, in 3rd pole arms had special rules. 1059 01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:12,240 So Spears and Howard's actually, because they're poles, they're 1060 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,600 there's there's like benefit on initiative and when people 1061 01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:20,080 charge you. But obviously in 4th all that 1062 01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:25,200 disappeared, so he was having fun with his camera there. 1063 01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:33,480 Sorry. Well, I guess the main problem 1064 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:37,760 would be yeah, Movement 3 as usual with dwarfs, yeah, you're 1065 01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:42,720 not getting anywhere quickly and if people don't want to fight 1066 01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,720 you, they can probably avoid the unit. 1067 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:53,680 So I I don't really know how to feel them effectively but maybe 1068 01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:59,480 some banner Banner of rough maybe so they can shoot people. 1069 01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,440 OK. So they're not the most, you 1070 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,360 have to have one unit, but it's kind of hard to make them. 1071 01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:14,600 Produce results, I think, yeah, I think there's a good argument. 1072 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,840 And I know this is kind of doing the thing to get around the 1073 01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:17,960 weakness. I get that. 1074 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:22,760 But I think there is a good argument for a castoral sorcerer 1075 01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:27,279 having the Book of Asia and getting grey spells because it's 1076 01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:30,160 shadow, so Castor also shadow and flame. 1077 01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:33,319 So I think it fits in that they they could use great magic in 1078 01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:35,000 that sense. Yeah, because it's shadow magic 1079 01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:41,399 and access to the, the Empire, you know, British shadows. 1080 01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:45,600 I wouldn't go for I, I don't think ice magic would fit with 1081 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,560 them. So like the British ice, you 1082 01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:49,800 know, they're fired. It would melt. 1083 01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:55,160 But but no, I, I, I think that's a perfectly you you can draw a 1084 01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,960 line of the logic of that one. I think so. 1085 01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,880 So I don't, I wouldn't be particularly, you know, galled 1086 01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:04,880 by an opponent doing that because I think it fits. 1087 01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:07,720 I, I, I, I think there's an argument for them having being 1088 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,399 having access to either dark magic or the colleges. 1089 01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:13,560 Anyway. It's it's one of those things 1090 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:18,080 where where the idea of 10 spells only is great up until 1091 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,080 you get to a certain point of size of game. 1092 01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,840 And then it becomes really restrictive on the number of 1093 01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:25,880 Wizards you can have because they don't work 20 more spells. 1094 01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:27,479 So hence the commercial you're again, would fit. 1095 01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:28,680 Anyway, I'm going to fit the tangent. 1096 01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,720 Yeah, no, but I think. That's reasonable. 1097 01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,439 But they require they require to use the like it's true, like the 1098 01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:40,319 every other unit in the book does something better than them. 1099 01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:45,359 Yes, OK. And then we have the quite 1100 01:09:45,359 --> 01:09:54,160 unique case of Lander buses. Yes, that's interesting. 1101 01:09:54,520 --> 01:10:00,000 I'm not sure about that. There are fun rules still like 1102 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:06,600 range, pension range and anything like any model within 1103 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,760 that Fire Zone that extent 12 is hit which is great in theory but 1104 01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:15,640 in practice unless you play like in that would have chaos dwarf 1105 01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:19,680 battle reports and you can escape it pretty easily 1106 01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,000 especially given how slow they are. 1107 01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,720 Yeah, if you if you get a shot off, it's devastating, but you. 1108 01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,320 Got to get a shot exactly the. The ideal tactic is means a 1109 01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,240 flyer isn't it? Land behind them so they turn 1110 01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:32,400 around, then land in front of them. 1111 01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:34,720 They land behind them, they land in front so they keep turning. 1112 01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:37,560 Never get a shot off because you can't move and shoot. 1113 01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,360 Yes, yes, yes and they can't even shoot as well, which is 1114 01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:44,000 very limiting, so they can't go to strength five shots. 1115 01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:48,760 This is cool. So I I I I tend to play more 1116 01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:54,040 like fast, least with cell tours and walls and hop Koblins. 1117 01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:58,920 But if I have a bigger game then I I've got 3 units of 1118 01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:01,920 blunderbusses so you can do a big line and it's harder to 1119 01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,160 escape in that case. Maybe that's the answer Happens 1120 01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:07,320 happens the OU. Just like. 1121 01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:13,240 Right across the back line with down command in the unit and 1122 01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:15,160 battle standards they can re roll. 1123 01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,080 Maybe that's the idea. Just the entire back line is is 1124 01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:24,280 just ramped up like 5 deep, yes. Just. 1125 01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:25,440 Just take the. Just take the. 1126 01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:27,120 Just take the 1 you need and that's it, Yeah. 1127 01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:28,680 Exactly. That's your entire army. 1128 01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,600 What are your thoughts? Come at me now. 1129 01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:40,000 Well it should also note about the strength. 1130 01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:45,960 As soon as one guy dies in the back rank your your strength is 1131 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,600 reduced. So you need to have a full rank. 1132 01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,600 So if you're planning on having strength 4, you need some extra 1133 01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:56,160 guys behind. So yeah. 1134 01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,160 Yeah. Can get expensive. 1135 01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:02,280 Yeah, so potentially devastating, but if your 1136 01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:05,560 opponent knows what he's doing, it's fairly easy to work around 1137 01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:09,000 them, I suppose. Set the the verdict on them or. 1138 01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:13,160 Yeah, yeah. They can also fire on a single 1139 01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:18,160 target if they if they want to. So then you than a role once for 1140 01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:23,560 every model in the front rank. So if a hero lands in front of 1141 01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:27,600 the unit, you can hit him quite a few times. 1142 01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,720 I I think it was possibly possibly remember seeing this in 1143 01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:37,560 a Reta, but there's nothing in the list I don't think that 1144 01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:41,920 states how much a blunderbuss costs for a champion or 1145 01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:45,000 anything. So therefore strictly speaking, 1146 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,960 like can I take a champion, he's got to be able to exactly say 1147 01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:52,480 rusty or did he come in without? I mean it's about 3 points I 1148 01:12:52,480 --> 01:12:55,320 think for a blunderbuss if you do the maths between warriors. 1149 01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:58,240 And. Yeah, and Blunderbuss. 1150 01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:00,360 And you know you'd be a bit of a geek if you didn't let someone 1151 01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,440 take him. Yeah, yeah, I think by the rules 1152 01:13:03,440 --> 01:13:06,600 you probably can't because for example, for Empire you, it 1153 01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:10,880 actually says in an FAQ that you can't have an Outrider champion. 1154 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:15,680 That's impossible because you can't give a character model 1155 01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:19,200 repeat. So, but I mean, as you said, I 1156 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:21,720 don't think it's a game. Yeah, yeah. 1157 01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,000 We we do it anyway, right? So it's. 1158 01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:27,200 Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. 1159 01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:29,080 I said I don't. I don't know if they included 1160 01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:30,520 listening right or they said you couldn't interrupt. 1161 01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:32,240 I just remember there was some sort of mention of it at some 1162 01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,200 point. But in the list itself, no. 1163 01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,920 We should have thought when you're doing your revisions for 1164 01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:39,360 the Army book, when you've done the White Dwarf list, that might 1165 01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:42,560 be something that you'd include. Yeah, it's. 1166 01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:47,560 It's, it's, it's a good segue into the bull centres because 1167 01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,080 like they have to be given those options of weapons. 1168 01:13:55,200 --> 01:14:00,720 Well, yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean they're, I mean, 1169 01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:02,840 it hits, they hit means they hit really hard. 1170 01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:03,920 Hard. But you're right. 1171 01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:06,920 I mean, yeah. Well, it's why I never take 1172 01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:09,880 White Wolves for Empire. Oh, exactly. 1173 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:10,640 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 1174 01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:13,080 It's cavalry double handed weapons because they have it. 1175 01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:14,920 Makes no sense. It makes no sense. 1176 01:14:16,440 --> 01:14:19,360 So. So I jumped. 1177 01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:22,680 Ahead, but like Google centers have great stats, they're a 1178 01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:26,880 great unit and they've got light thermals, Shields and double 1179 01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:31,120 handed axes. So I mean I usually I I play 1180 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:36,400 them with handbirds and heavy armour artists and often we give 1181 01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:40,560 them the Calvary save as well. The plus one or being Calvary. 1182 01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:42,840 Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. 1183 01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:45,600 Look. They do have so many, so they 1184 01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:47,080 have some. So many charges. 1185 01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,560 No, no, it's it's true, it's true, but I've seen so many 1186 01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,280 charges from them, which is like flop because it just gets 1187 01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:56,880 slaughtered or. Or give them barding or 1188 01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:00,440 something like that. I'd idea I don't go that far but 1189 01:15:00,440 --> 01:15:04,680 at least like 3 plus save with heavy armour for an extra 2 1190 01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:08,320 points and the cavalry bonus makes sense. 1191 01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,240 But the worst thing is really double handed the axis. 1192 01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:17,000 Well 11 tactic I've seen but probably a bit cheesy is you 1193 01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:21,840 take a character and you give him the helm of many eyes since 1194 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:26,640 chaos dwarfs can take chaos items and you give him a double 1195 01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:31,880 handed weapon and he will strike first and hopefully kill the 1196 01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:36,120 anyone charging. They they I'm sure they FAQ that 1197 01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:38,520 at some point and said that when it's when it's someone has 1198 01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:40,320 always strikes first but then has something that makes a 1199 01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:43,640 strike last. I I think it either goes to 1200 01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,200 becomes like a hand weapon. Yeah, it goes to. 1201 01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:49,120 An average of a 2. And it. 1202 01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:51,160 Doesn't work. We roll each tend to see whether 1203 01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,120 they strike first or last. I can't remember what the answer 1204 01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:56,920 was in the end, I don't I. Don't remember the latter, but I 1205 01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,280 definitely remember the former. Audience like to do initiative 1206 01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:03,080 in that case. Yeah, I mean for dwarfs I often 1207 01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,760 my my favorite dwarf warrior, not dwarf, sorry. 1208 01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:11,720 Dwarf general combination is certainly a weapon with mastery 1209 01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:15,280 and swiftness, but that's but that doesn't really come into 1210 01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,400 play in this because it's not a double hand weapon. 1211 01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:19,320 And if you do add it to a double hand weapon, they already say 1212 01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,800 that if you put magic like magic weapon, magic rooms onto a 1213 01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,520 double handed weapon, it just becomes a standard weapon. 1214 01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:27,720 You lose the bonuses and the and the minuses. 1215 01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,480 So it doesn't really it's it's similar sort of logic, though, 1216 01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:34,560 so far as to so often my king will lead my my hammers and 1217 01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:36,880 yeah, I will take mastering swiftness on him and probably 2 1218 01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:38,760 rooms of cleaving. So in effect, he has a double 1219 01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:41,360 handed weapon that can strike now, but I'm paying the points 1220 01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:42,840 for that. That's that's a hefty investment 1221 01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:47,280 Helm with many eyes. Yeah, OK, I can actually, but I 1222 01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:49,400 don't think it's necessarily that. 1223 01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:51,240 I think it'd be more cheese if you somehow managed to get a 1224 01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,480 night goblin in there with a with a bad moon banner. 1225 01:16:56,480 --> 01:16:58,240 That would probably be more cheese I think. 1226 01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,920 I I don't think how many eyes as such and you're limited to just 1227 01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,520 the one. Yes, this is a character. 1228 01:17:05,480 --> 01:17:08,120 So you can't do it multiple, you can't spam them around the 1229 01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:10,560 entire army. So that's not so bad. 1230 01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,400 But yeah, no honestly where you're coming from, but it 1231 01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:15,840 possibly is the only way you get around that because it is such a 1232 01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:18,000 disadvantage when having double handed weapons. 1233 01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,400 It's. Hubbards Hubbards house rule. 1234 01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:24,520 It's like. It's a go to a house rule. 1235 01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:32,960 OK, so if you don't go that road route, it's or the book Santos 1236 01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:35,760 not a good option or do you still like to so? 1237 01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:39,360 You want to agree they're very expensive as well. 1238 01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:43,920 They're more expensive than Empire Night with a 2 + S OK, 1239 01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:46,880 they've got toughness for two wounds, 2 attacks, great. 1240 01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,160 So it's a nightmare too, in effect, because they've got the 1241 01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:51,280 horse. Yeah, with the horse. 1242 01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:54,400 True, true. But like I think you pitch both 1243 01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:57,160 centaurs against Empire Knights and the Empire Knights win every 1244 01:17:57,160 --> 01:17:59,040 time. Yeah, no, I agree. 1245 01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:03,440 They're kind of got the same drawback as blunderbusses in 1246 01:18:03,440 --> 01:18:07,160 that if they work, they'll be brilliant, but if they don't, 1247 01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:13,560 you know, they're, they're, they're not. 1248 01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,320 The thing about dwarves is, is they're phenomenal about 1249 01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:18,120 punishment. They can take balls and tours 1250 01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:21,560 can't take a lot of punishment. No they can't, they can't, they 1251 01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:24,760 can't and like 5 plus save is is stable. 1252 01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:29,440 That's why I think overall this army books give a little bit of 1253 01:18:29,440 --> 01:18:32,720 an finished flavours when it comes to the the unit options. 1254 01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:35,720 And I say it's probably the same with the the magic standards. 1255 01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:38,840 It feels like it was written quickly for White Dwarf and then 1256 01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:41,120 not really revised when they published the book. 1257 01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:43,000 Which it should have been really. 1258 01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,840 You'd have thought play testing, a bit of feedback from people. 1259 01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:48,160 You know, we didn't have studio probably playing them as well. 1260 01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:50,080 We didn't necessarily need to go outside the studio to get that 1261 01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:53,000 feedback. Don't know how much play testing 1262 01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:57,120 there was of them initially. No, probably not. 1263 01:18:57,720 --> 01:18:59,880 Just for the rules and release them and never change them. 1264 01:19:00,440 --> 01:19:03,880 Yeah, exactly. But yeah, the nice models too. 1265 01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:05,840 Yeah. That's cool. 1266 01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:07,240 Yeah. Brilliant. 1267 01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:08,600 So. So. 1268 01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:12,520 I think they usually put the banner of might on them in the 1269 01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,080 battle reports. That's where at least. 1270 01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,000 So for the plus one. Thing, yeah, the standard of 1271 01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:21,120 shielding 200. Banner of Might is brilliant for 1272 01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:22,440 them, but they've got to actually hit. 1273 01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:24,920 They've they've got to actually get a chance to attack. 1274 01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:26,320 And if you've got double end weapons, you yeah. 1275 01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:28,520 Yeah, it's because we're not going to. 1276 01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:31,400 Take that many you know so OK, they can take a bit and punch it 1277 01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:33,320 in the sense if they've got toughness four and two wounds, 1278 01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:37,720 but we but as you said, with the same thing and in combat 6 plus 1279 01:19:38,480 --> 01:19:40,560 because you don't get the. Steel, Yes, yes, yes, yes. 1280 01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:44,640 You know, it's, yeah. Tissue paper, Yeah. 1281 01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:51,880 Yes, right. So Next up are the hog goblins. 1282 01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:56,840 Gorgeous models you mean. Yeah, I love them. 1283 01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:00,160 Yes. Yes, yes, really nice small 1284 01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:03,280 Dobbs. I mean, the sneaky gits and the 1285 01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:06,320 Warriors kind of do the same thing and we're going to talk 1286 01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:08,280 about the gits after, but they're they're better. 1287 01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:14,000 So the Warriors, you don't find them included very often unless 1288 01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:16,120 you just like the book of them, I think. 1289 01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,960 They did as well see Gits for a later edition weren't they? 1290 01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:23,240 So initially when people were buying Castle when they first 1291 01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:25,200 came out they would have bought Hoggoblin warriors. 1292 01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:28,360 But yeah absolutely right. Probably more likely to go for 1293 01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:31,840 sneaky gits as they are better. Yeah, and they. 1294 01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:35,280 They cost less than five points, so their options are half 1295 01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:38,400 points. So you can 6 points a model with 1296 01:20:38,480 --> 01:20:40,320 the light armor. So it's it's reasonable. 1297 01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,600 Yeah, they won't do a lot. There are some. 1298 01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:46,240 Rooms. Yeah, sorry. 1299 01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:47,560 Go on. Now go on, now are you going? 1300 01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,400 I was just thinking about the animosity rules. 1301 01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:52,280 Maybe if we can mention that here. 1302 01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:56,120 So if there are hobgoblins in the army, then any orc and 1303 01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:59,640 goblin units will ignore the animosity rules. 1304 01:20:59,920 --> 01:21:03,280 So it's if you're taking any orcs and goblins, you should 1305 01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:06,920 take at least one unit of hobgoblins because then the the 1306 01:21:07,440 --> 01:21:10,720 the orcs and goblins will behave for the battle. 1307 01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:13,920 But. Will they still behave even if 1308 01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,920 they die? It doesn't say, but it it 1309 01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:22,280 probably if they're dead then they aren't present, so I guess 1310 01:21:22,480 --> 01:21:24,640 they should start using animosity again. 1311 01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:27,280 Yeah, I think a reasonable person would say yes, they do. 1312 01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:31,000 It just says if your army includes mobs of hobgoblins. 1313 01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:34,000 Yeah, so if you're a bit sneaky, you could argue that it doesn't 1314 01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:34,920 matter. You guys have? 1315 01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:37,520 55 even. Yeah. 1316 01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:40,480 Let's take a hero and put him somewhere. 1317 01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:44,600 In the forest. Yeah, so but the hobgoblins 1318 01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:48,360 themselves use the animosity rules, so that's they still test 1319 01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:51,960 for animosity. And orcs and goblins ignore 1320 01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:56,440 fleeing hobgoblins. So if the homegoers flee the the 1321 01:21:56,440 --> 01:22:00,840 orcs and governments won't care. Strangely enough that the chaos 1322 01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:05,680 wharfs will have to test for panic for fleeing greenskins. 1323 01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:12,280 I think that's one of the major oversights in this because why 1324 01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:15,320 would they care about the fleet slaves? 1325 01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,640 So it's very strange. Yeah, I think that would be a 1326 01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:22,560 perfectly reasonable house rule to say they don't care about 1327 01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,440 that. They actually got it in the 6th 1328 01:22:25,440 --> 01:22:29,240 edition ravening hoards list they got. 1329 01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:35,320 Ignore greenskin panic. Yeah, there was this very, very 1330 01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:40,360 cheesy and popular tactic at some point of including a unit 1331 01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:44,600 of allied up goblin warriors in Ox and Goblin now. 1332 01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:49,920 I remember that, yes. I've never done this. 1333 01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:51,360 I would not do this kind of thing. 1334 01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:53,320 I. Mean it's it's like the 1335 01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:57,960 including a Black Hawk in every unit sort of thing yes yes if if 1336 01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:00,680 you want to play walks and goblins except animosity is a 1337 01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:02,680 thing, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 1338 01:23:04,480 --> 01:23:07,520 Absolutely. And is this the first mentioning 1339 01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:10,120 of Hope Goblins in 4th edition? They. 1340 01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:13,960 No, no, no, no, no, no. They were, they were major. 1341 01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:15,920 They were quite a major thing in first. 1342 01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:18,600 Yeah, I know, I know they were before 4th edition, but yeah, 1343 01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,680 and and. 3rd oh, mention on 4th yeah, the first mention in 1344 01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:26,440 fourth of yes, I think so. But they were they were really 1345 01:23:26,440 --> 01:23:28,520 big though, prior to they they were they had the biggest 1346 01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:29,920 empire. You know, they they were the 1347 01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:32,600 Mongols. They had the biggest, Yeah, they 1348 01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:36,440 had some empire in in the, in the old Hammer world. 1349 01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:39,520 I know they were featured in the role. 1350 01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:41,920 Playing game and now they're kind of this, this kind of 1351 01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:45,240 pathetic race of goblins. It's quite, it's a bit of a 1352 01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:46,440 shift. I think that's another thing 1353 01:23:46,440 --> 01:23:50,200 that divided kind of the older players with the new ones that 1354 01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:52,960 hobgoblins to get, like cursed horses, like this big shift of 1355 01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:54,760 what they were. There was a big shift of what 1356 01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,880 hobgoblins were. I think they still mention it 1357 01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:58,880 briefly in the background. It's quite. 1358 01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:02,080 I'm looking at the the the best scenario though not to know. 1359 01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:07,600 Yeah, and it's I think in the cursed wolf, you know, in the 1360 01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:11,280 cursed wolf beast, I think it's mentioned that that they'd come 1361 01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:15,040 from this race of, you know, with a Khan and things like 1362 01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:17,960 that. But it's it's kind of just a 1363 01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:22,120 sprinkled in there. It's not really referenced 1364 01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:25,600 properly that they're this other kind of really powerful race. 1365 01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:27,880 They're more kind of this pathetic version now, but. 1366 01:24:29,440 --> 01:24:32,480 They did release a unit for the Dogs of War. 1367 01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:35,720 Indeed. Yeah, they're more, yeah. 1368 01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:39,920 They were like Mongols. Yes, yeah, yeah. 1369 01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:43,440 So. I I need to drop in like 2025 1370 01:24:43,440 --> 01:24:47,200 minutes? Yeah, we'll finish the at least 1371 01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:51,480 the unit section, then maybe we'll do the special characters 1372 01:24:51,480 --> 01:24:56,560 if need be, right. So let's try to finish those up. 1373 01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,440 There's not too many left hobgoblin options. 1374 01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:01,520 You can as well. So yeah. 1375 01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:05,200 So they're good? Yes, they're fun. 1376 01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:08,400 And they have a blow. Yeah, not short. 1377 01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:12,840 So yeah, vignetting range, yeah, no, very useful, especially 1378 01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:14,360 considering the blunderbuss is such short range. 1379 01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:17,360 So yeah, now I think The Archers are very useful unit then, and 1380 01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:20,320 relatively cheap as well. Yeah, yeah, we try to give up 1381 01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:24,200 The Archers or the gates, the. What, what about The Archers? 1382 01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:26,840 I mean the the gates pretty much, you know, they have 1383 01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:28,760 additional rules being kind of rolled over into the same 1384 01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:30,600 principle as the warriors. As we kind of said, it's. 1385 01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:32,560 Well, they they'll be better. I do. 1386 01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:34,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are more safe than modifier. 1387 01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:39,560 They can lap, they have no save, but they they, it's it's fun. 1388 01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:40,880 You need to use. Yeah. 1389 01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:43,920 Yeah, yeah. Sorry I'll skipped. 1390 01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:45,120 Over. Yeah, I guess. 1391 01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:49,520 That's the the problem would be to have them stick around or 1392 01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:53,840 actually getting to lap around. But maybe a crown of command? 1393 01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:56,080 Yeah. Oh no, it's not what's special. 1394 01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:59,160 I'm not coming on them. Go to a solution for everything. 1395 01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:03,520 Problem I can get that. Yeah, you can get them a hero at 1396 01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,040 least. So yeah, early poison, but it 1397 01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:11,120 didn't work as it did later on. It was just a -1. -1 say. 1398 01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:12,280 Modified. Yeah, yeah. 1399 01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:14,840 So I guess. If you ask that they can lap 1400 01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:18,640 around even if they lose the combat, so they can. 1401 01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:20,560 Yeah. And then if you don't give them 1402 01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:25,160 some sort of modifier where they stay within the general sphere, 1403 01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:27,480 if they lose, they're probably not going to stay around. 1404 01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:29,360 Leadership 6. So yeah. 1405 01:26:29,920 --> 01:26:32,720 Yeah, that should be quite lucky. 1406 01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:39,480 And did they release models for just standard Hope goblin 1407 01:26:39,480 --> 01:26:41,760 warriors or whether they just these sneaky git or they're the 1408 01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:43,400 same? Yeah, Sneak Gits came out a 1409 01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:46,840 little bit later. Yeah, yeah, both of them, yes. 1410 01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,360 So the Hope Goblin warriors are with Axis and Shields? 1411 01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:54,120 All right, Yeah. And the sneaky gits have two 1412 01:26:54,600 --> 01:27:00,360 knives and. They're released around about 1413 01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:04,920 the same time as the cast of Wood off Battle Report, right? 1414 01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:07,840 Right roundabout then. I think it was like one or two 1415 01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:09,280 issues before, but it was roundabout then. 1416 01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:13,760 OK, so we talked about The Archers. 1417 01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:17,600 Yeah, cheap choice, always take them. 1418 01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:22,080 They're not amazing, but like, it's a good shooting option. 1419 01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:23,400 It's the only shooting option they have. 1420 01:27:25,440 --> 01:27:28,400 And yeah, you could give them some lights on and stuff, but 1421 01:27:28,480 --> 01:27:30,240 you're probably not going to do that. 1422 01:27:30,440 --> 01:27:36,000 Let's see. No, like and I don't know if you 1423 01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:40,160 compared to for example Hoffling Bowman for the I guess so pretty 1424 01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:43,040 good a bit leadership issue of course still. 1425 01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,200 But I'm think that Ballistics can fall, so there, yeah. 1426 01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:50,560 But yeah, but they are extremely weak if they actually happen to 1427 01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:51,800 go into combat. Sure. 1428 01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:58,960 And what kind of size of units would you go for for The 1429 01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:02,000 Archers? And 12. 1430 01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:07,080 Yeah, that's a fair share. Couple of units. 1431 01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:12,200 OK. And then you have the the fast 1432 01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:14,280 cabaret. You have the book in book 1433 01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:17,000 Fighters. Now that's very good units. 1434 01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:21,040 Yeah, yeah, probably one of the better units in the list. 1435 01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:25,200 I mean, it could be or even described as the best unit, 1436 01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:29,520 which is if you don't house rule the the bull centers and the 1437 01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:31,280 kills dwarfs, they're really good. 1438 01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:34,840 They can have good save can use them skirmish with balls. 1439 01:28:34,840 --> 01:28:37,840 You've got the special character that you can add to them to give 1440 01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:41,320 them a bit of punch so they can they only. 1441 01:28:41,480 --> 01:28:44,080 Have short posts though, Yeah, that's the drawback. 1442 01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:49,800 Yeah, and and they can't have spells, but they they're good 1443 01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:52,240 unit. I always have two or three 1444 01:28:52,240 --> 01:28:54,560 units. Yeah, they're like, they're like 1445 01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:57,040 super gobbo wolf riders. Yes, yes. 1446 01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:06,120 Yeah, exactly 3. Yeah, and of course that's with 1447 01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:10,040 all the hot goblins a bit vulnerable to any kind of 1448 01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:12,640 leadership test that they got on their own, but. 1449 01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:16,480 So that's why like the the, the special character is not very 1450 01:29:16,480 --> 01:29:21,240 expensive and it's got leadership 8, you know? 1451 01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:24,320 It's it's. 93 points, it's it's a very good. 1452 01:29:24,440 --> 01:29:29,920 Guy yeah, so solid choice. Good for harassing stuff and 1453 01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:31,880 just running around doing mischief. 1454 01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:37,720 Then you have the the Greenskins, the sort of normal 1455 01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:43,280 Greenskins and I guess they don't differ any stats wise or 1456 01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:47,800 cost wise to what you would get in the Oxengoblin list or? 1457 01:29:48,400 --> 01:29:50,800 They should be identical. Not the same, yeah. 1458 01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:54,000 Yeah. So for the Blackhawks, you have 1459 01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:58,840 a zero to 1 unit, so you can have only have one unit. 1460 01:29:59,440 --> 01:30:03,160 That's the only restriction. So what are your feeling about 1461 01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:05,440 including those? I guess the Blackhawks are the 1462 01:30:05,440 --> 01:30:10,520 most sort of iconic in connection to the Chaos Force 1463 01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:16,160 that this one you use so. My only problem is that so I've 1464 01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:19,440 got big unit painted but I want to use them for the oxen Kobe 1465 01:30:19,440 --> 01:30:22,320 because I feel like their style doesn't really match the chaos 1466 01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,840 walls. And the Blackhawks, they have 1467 01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:30,320 the only little bit of history with the chaos walls. 1468 01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:32,360 I think they had sort of the rebellion. 1469 01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:34,120 Like, what was it? The ones, yes. 1470 01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:37,400 Yes. So they were created by the 1471 01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:42,440 sorcerers in an attempt to create a stronger and more 1472 01:30:42,440 --> 01:30:48,400 reliable race of slaves, but they rebelled and nearly wiped 1473 01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:51,560 out the Chaos Dwarfs. But then the hobgoblins switched 1474 01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:57,280 sides and yeah, so they lost. So they don't like the 1475 01:30:57,280 --> 01:30:58,880 hobgoblins, so. No, they. 1476 01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:04,360 No. Really don't I guess if if you 1477 01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:10,720 wanted to include sheep units that doesn't suffer from 1478 01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:12,360 animosity, I I guess you. Can. 1479 01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:14,000 Well, they did. They're great units. 1480 01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:15,880 They're very good. Yeah, they have a solid 1481 01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:18,920 satellite, I think. It's just like the the problem 1482 01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:21,720 to be a bit more Kills dwarfs, kills dwarfs. 1483 01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:26,960 So I guess if you didn't have to include a unit of Chaos Warriors 1484 01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:29,080 you would probably go for. These guys, as they're talented, 1485 01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:35,160 yeah, for sure, yeah. Yeah, I always Black Hawks kind 1486 01:31:35,160 --> 01:31:37,720 of lack from lack from the ability to take heavy armour. 1487 01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:45,080 Yeah, the light armour is just because most of the model well 1488 01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:49,160 all the models are either double hand weapon or additional 1489 01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:51,440 weapons. The light armour is just is not 1490 01:31:51,440 --> 01:31:55,800 worth taking and they are some and they're not. 1491 01:31:56,040 --> 01:31:59,160 The models aren't quite heavy armour, but they're certainly 1492 01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:00,720 not light armour. What they're wearing. 1493 01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:02,320 We say the plastic. The plastic ones are very 1494 01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:03,480 flimsy. Yeah, but you know, they're a 1495 01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:05,640 bit trans naked, like you can see a lot of like. 1496 01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:07,640 They are very light armour. Yeah. 1497 01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:10,080 No, it's yeah. Yeah. 1498 01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:12,520 Not the metal ones are are are more. 1499 01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:14,560 Heavy, very hot. Yeah, exactly. 1500 01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:18,040 So they, they, you know, I, I think they could benefit from 1501 01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:19,880 house rule of allowing them heavy armour. 1502 01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:23,840 Yeah, which will fit well with different models that look maybe 1503 01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:26,080 with the cats as well. Yeah. 1504 01:32:27,480 --> 01:32:30,240 And then you can also have the normal OX if you want to. 1505 01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:36,400 They're cheaper, obviously, but. Yeah, so orcs, orcs and goblins 1506 01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:40,320 I don't include by principle because I mean, they're supposed 1507 01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:43,920 to be slaves and they they I don't see them like fighting or 1508 01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:48,000 having the same stats as the normal guys for that race. 1509 01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:50,280 Just feel like a bit of an afterthought. 1510 01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:51,440 They are. They did the least you. 1511 01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:56,400 Oxley Stout, doesn't it? That's that's that's why I think 1512 01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:59,800 they're already brilliant and with the with the easiest doing 1513 01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:02,480 it going all their slaves are pressed into fighting. 1514 01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:06,240 It's it's, it's a, it's an easy cop out, you know, sort of like 1515 01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:08,720 scathing slaves. Obviously in a scathing are 1516 01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:10,240 lesser. Fighters. 1517 01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:12,400 Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense, yeah. 1518 01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:15,520 What do you think, Ted? Do you well? 1519 01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:20,040 I kind of kind of like it for a fluff reason because yeah and 1520 01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:23,680 also if if you have an orc army, you can just buy some chaos 1521 01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:26,560 dwarves and have a new army with. 1522 01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:30,920 Some. You can use them in both, but 1523 01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:34,240 yeah. And I guess I mean, even if they 1524 01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:36,600 weren't the Cleveland List, you could still haven't used them as 1525 01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:38,280 allies. I suppose so. 1526 01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:43,280 Yeah, we didn't mention it, but the Chaos Dwarves can have the 1527 01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:49,560 chaos and working of in allies. And of course, Allies is entire 1528 01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:53,440 discussion we don't often get into but so. 1529 01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:56,240 There's another another podcast there. 1530 01:33:56,360 --> 01:34:02,920 Yeah, yeah. So could other races ally in KS 1531 01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:06,440 Dwarfs or was that sort of retroactively mentioned 1532 01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:08,400 anywhere? Or how did that work, does 1533 01:34:08,440 --> 01:34:09,440 anyone know? Good question. 1534 01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:12,480 That's a good question. I don't think they're probably 1535 01:34:12,480 --> 01:34:15,040 listed in the ally list section for most of them. 1536 01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:18,240 I wonder if they were. Well, hold on. 1537 01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:20,760 So Chaos is probably the only one that if, if you go by the 1538 01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:25,760 rationale that Kerswell's going to have Chaos, Chaos or some 1539 01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:27,920 goblins, all goblin ballists have already been released, 1540 01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:29,040 obviously. So they're not going to be in 1541 01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:31,920 that one. Our whole Chaos list as allies. 1542 01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:36,160 I doubt it. So maybe no one could buy the 1543 01:34:36,160 --> 01:34:39,200 rules of Kerswell Allies I. Mean it. 1544 01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:41,040 It seems logical, doesn't it, That they? 1545 01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:44,000 As it wouldn't make sense for well. 1546 01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:46,960 Yeah, Kerstal's listed in the KAOS book, they are listed. 1547 01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:50,160 Yeah, and which one in the in the 4th edition? 1548 01:34:51,480 --> 01:34:54,480 And then, well, actually this is a later printing, so maybe they 1549 01:34:54,480 --> 01:34:57,080 were added, no. Yeah, I I was just looking at 1 1550 01:34:57,080 --> 01:35:02,440 here and I'm not in there. So they were added in. 1551 01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:05,680 Later on when they did the reprints they added them in 1552 01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:08,600 which? Yeah, dark ends. 1553 01:35:09,480 --> 01:35:13,240 Would it make any sense for any other races to have the sort of 1554 01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:18,160 house rule in some case Dwarfs, Scabe and Beta? 1555 01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:21,800 I don't know. Is it any rationale for them to 1556 01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:24,280 be able to add some case Dwarfs, you say? 1557 01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:28,560 Yeah. I mean, I think maybe allies 1558 01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:30,360 don't make too much sense anyway. 1559 01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:33,160 Always so. Yeah, I know there's the whole 1560 01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,680 idea that elves and dwarves don't get on sort of thing, but 1561 01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:39,120 I always thought that a natural fit would actually be dark elves 1562 01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,040 and cow's dwarves. If you said, I mean it kind of 1563 01:35:42,240 --> 01:35:43,960 they would be the ones that did accept each other. 1564 01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:48,120 Maybe that's that's only my way of thinking. 1565 01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:53,600 OK. So maybe if we do it recently 1566 01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:57,120 quickly we can handle the war machines in the sessions what we 1567 01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:00,760 have 7 1/2 minutes. So Leo can be in on that part as 1568 01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:05,320 well. So they have only three war 1569 01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:09,240 machines, but they are all unique or I don't know how 1570 01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:10,880 unique the hot gobbling bolt throw is. 1571 01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:14,040 They have hot gobbling, but. Just the standard bolt throw, 1572 01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:16,200 yeah. Yeah, it's just the cruiser 1573 01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:19,160 difference. Yeah, yeah. 1574 01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:22,760 But it's very cheap, of course. 42 points, yeah. 1575 01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:25,320 Yeah. It's kind of like you have a few 1576 01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:30,160 points to feel, yeah, this is not bad, It's not great. 1577 01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:33,560 A lot just there. Yeah, exactly. 1578 01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:36,160 You can get lucky with it, that's why not. 1579 01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:40,520 Yeah, if you have 40 points to spare, maybe throw in the of 1580 01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:41,680 course. Yeah, pop fruit. 1581 01:36:43,000 --> 01:36:44,800 I like that choice. Because they don't misfire. 1582 01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:46,440 No. Yes, that's true. 1583 01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:48,280 Yeah, of course. Yes. 1584 01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:50,400 Yes, we can miss, but they ain't going to blow up. 1585 01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:58,520 But if we look at the second choice, they can misfire and, 1586 01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:03,520 you know, and. That's the the main part of 1587 01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:05,760 them, right? Because it's otherwise the 1588 01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:10,080 genius should like a catapult. But when they misfire, this is 1589 01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:13,720 fun because they can go, the rocket can spin and go anywhere. 1590 01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:19,240 Yeah. So it's 75 points. 1591 01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:25,320 So it's not that cheap, I think. No, I mean, yeah, for a strength 1592 01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:32,600 five hit with the template and a 48 inch range and D3 wounds. 1593 01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:37,480 So I mean, yeah, it's OK I guess, but nothing special. 1594 01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:40,720 Exactly. It's a catapult inside. 1595 01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:45,840 Yeah, something with a bit of a. Function. 1596 01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:50,040 Yeah, it's a bit shark. The the rocket can bounce 1597 01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:53,760 around, yeah. Have you had any experience or 1598 01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:57,000 maybe Leo if you played more a lot of games, maybe so. 1599 01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:01,920 We're going to talk about the R Shaker, which is definitely not 1600 01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:05,520 to include, but the the chaos the the Rockets is if you have 1601 01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:10,920 the point, if it's a big game, it's not, it's not automatic. 1602 01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:18,960 Weirdly background right wise, I mentioned the bazooka, but then 1603 01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:22,360 I've forgotten as well is you could have hobgoblin rocket 1604 01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:24,720 launchers. So it feels like it's kind of 1605 01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:26,480 bringing together all those ideas. 1606 01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:30,160 Castle Bazooka and Hobgoblin rocket launchers, kind of it's 1607 01:38:30,160 --> 01:38:33,200 it's the migration of those two, the death rocket for me. 1608 01:38:34,480 --> 01:38:36,440 Yeah. And I guess that sort of goes 1609 01:38:36,440 --> 01:38:41,120 with the Asian thing as well. They had, yeah, the use of 1610 01:38:41,120 --> 01:38:43,880 rockets back in the days. Absolutely. 1611 01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:48,400 OK, yeah, so maybe not all to include, but a bit of a fun kit 1612 01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:50,440 if you want to. But then we have the Earth 1613 01:38:50,440 --> 01:38:54,760 Shaker, which is more. Of a This one is nasty. 1614 01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:58,920 Horrible, horrible cannon. Well, mortar really isn't it. 1615 01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:00,440 It's not really a cannon. It's more mortar. 1616 01:39:00,440 --> 01:39:04,040 Yes, yes, yes, yes. The the the main thing is the 1617 01:39:04,040 --> 01:39:06,640 Earth Shaker effect. Yes, of course. 1618 01:39:07,440 --> 01:39:13,400 It slows you down, sometimes prevents you from shooting, and 1619 01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:15,400 it's very good. This is very good. 1620 01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:17,480 Yeah. And that's the. 1621 01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:20,360 Yeah. And it's a totally unique 1622 01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:22,320 feature as well. There's no other wall machines 1623 01:39:22,320 --> 01:39:24,080 there, anything like that. So. 1624 01:39:24,160 --> 01:39:28,080 So you. Roll roll 2D6 from where the the 1625 01:39:28,120 --> 01:39:33,040 shell lands, and then any model within that area must roll on a 1626 01:39:33,040 --> 01:39:36,520 chart to see what happens. Yeah, so I guess you roll for 1627 01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:40,240 individual models. Have have. 1628 01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:42,600 We've always rolled for units. Yeah. 1629 01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:45,480 That's a bit simple as well. Otherwise, yeah. 1630 01:39:47,120 --> 01:39:50,560 That would be a bit tricky. If you like yes, 4 units 1631 01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:54,400 something a bit rolling but. But I do think that Ruse does 1632 01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:58,680 say that you should only roll for the models that are within 1633 01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:00,960 the area, but I can see why you would. 1634 01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:06,680 So, so it's it's it says that part of units can be affected, 1635 01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:11,840 Yeah, which I've always read as the role for the unit, but only 1636 01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:15,720 the all the models within the the range are the ones that 1637 01:40:15,920 --> 01:40:17,480 affected and not signature models. 1638 01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:19,600 Yeah. That's Yeah, I think that's a 1639 01:40:19,600 --> 01:40:24,160 reasonable interpretation. So yeah, and there's. 1640 01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:26,400 No, Yeah. And the idea as well, you move 1641 01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:29,360 forget whether searcher in general, the unit moves at the 1642 01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:32,280 speed of the slowest thing. So therefore it reduces the 1643 01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:34,000 speed of part of the unit. It reduces the speed of the 1644 01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:37,480 entire unit, yes. And, and all I want to say is 1645 01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:40,080 you can is it can feel a little bit counterproductive. 1646 01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:42,680 The earth shake your Canon because whilst yes, it does 1647 01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:44,040 damage and it's lots of fun, right? 1648 01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:47,520 But your castles don't have a lot of range weapons. 1649 01:40:48,480 --> 01:40:50,880 So you're getting into close combat. 1650 01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:53,200 I think the idea is that you're pinning them in place for your 1651 01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:55,800 units to get at them. Yes, exactly. 1652 01:40:55,800 --> 01:40:58,920 Yeah, because you can have a like a fairly fast chaos to our 1653 01:40:58,920 --> 01:41:00,840 family. You can have like wolves, you 1654 01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:04,040 can have centaurs and you can have the two flying monsters 1655 01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:10,280 even like Black Horse are somewhat fast. 1656 01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:14,080 So you, you, you don't play the the killer's dwarves like you 1657 01:41:14,080 --> 01:41:17,400 play the dwarves at all. And that's what the are Shakers 1658 01:41:17,400 --> 01:41:19,200 are very useful. I've got 3. 1659 01:41:19,840 --> 01:41:22,720 Yeah. Well, how would you take in a 1660 01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,200 2000 or what? Or you say you've played 5000 1661 01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:27,440 points minimum. If you'd played one or 2000 1662 01:41:27,440 --> 01:41:30,880 points, how many would you take? In 3000 points, just one, just 1663 01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:32,680 one, one. OK, No. 1664 01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:36,120 Otherwise no one would play with me anymore. 1665 01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:38,880 Exactly. Exactly. 1666 01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:43,120 So they are, Yeah. They just what they are is 1667 01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:46,280 bloody frustrating. Yes, bloody annoying. 1668 01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:53,320 So could two earth cannon effects sort of overlap on one 1669 01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:54,440 unit? So is it? 1670 01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:56,360 Yeah, I don't see why not. Yeah. 1671 01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:00,360 So. Yeah, your room for every, every 1672 01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:01,920 shot. Yeah. 1673 01:42:03,880 --> 01:42:05,840 OK. So you have sort of an if you 1674 01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:08,040 have the points, that's probably an all to include. 1675 01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:10,560 Or. I've got a memory of playing 1676 01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:13,600 dwarves against kills dwarves and like the earth Shaker just 1677 01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:17,200 like prevented the dwarfs from shooting while the Lamassu the 1678 01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:22,000 great tourist is just running riots around the unit. 1679 01:42:22,000 --> 01:42:25,440 Say was one of the biggest defeat I've ever had, I think. 1680 01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:33,240 Yeah. Stick them with arrows, stick 1681 01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:37,480 them with knives and Spears, stick them where it hurts. 1682 01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:41,560 But most of all, stick them when they're looking the other way. 1683 01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:47,000 God, expect stabber of goblin Chieftain. 1684 01:42:51,160 --> 01:42:53,000 Right. So you had to leave us. 1685 01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:59,440 So it's just us 3 handling the final part of the only book, the 1686 01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:04,720 special characters and maybe a bit of the finishing words on 1687 01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:08,720 the KS Wolves. So we'll just get into that. 1688 01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:14,040 And the first one is is that it's. 1689 01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:18,240 Sat on the black or sat on the black. 1690 01:43:19,080 --> 01:43:21,000 Very cool name. Very cool name. 1691 01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:25,280 Yes, could possibly be slightly controversial by some little 1692 01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:28,400 standard, but I don't think we mind too much. 1693 01:43:29,360 --> 01:43:31,720 But it's pretty interesting because. 1694 01:43:32,440 --> 01:43:33,680 If you look at his. Points. 1695 01:43:34,320 --> 01:43:39,600 His points cost his 12 points more than a regular chaos Lord. 1696 01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:43,160 Chaos Lord. And for that 12 points, you get 1697 01:43:44,680 --> 01:43:48,280 one more weapon skill, one more wound, one more initiative, you 1698 01:43:48,280 --> 01:43:54,840 get heavy armour, you get to carry 4 magic items and you hate 1699 01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:58,560 every Yeah, so that's for 12 points more than. 1700 01:43:59,840 --> 01:44:02,040 That he's normal character in that sense, yeah. 1701 01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:07,880 Oh, that's seems like a pretty easy choice if you want. 1702 01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:12,200 Yeah, so if you want to take Chaos Dwarf Lord, you should 1703 01:44:12,440 --> 01:44:16,760 probably take him. Yeah, and it's not none of the 1704 01:44:17,560 --> 01:44:21,480 magic items are sort of shows up for him. 1705 01:44:21,480 --> 01:44:23,840 You no. No, you can choose freely. 1706 01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:28,200 Yeah, that sounds like a very easy choice if you want to. 1707 01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:31,080 Yeah, he he does have one drawback. 1708 01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:35,360 He can only ride a Lamasu or a great Taurus cannot. 1709 01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:39,280 Choose freely from. The monster list, yeah. 1710 01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:41,760 Yeah, I guess that would be quite rare. 1711 01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:46,000 Anyway, I can't remember seeing any Chaos Dwarf characters 1712 01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:49,760 riding around on like whatever cockatlist or something. 1713 01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:55,160 So I mean, he's yeah, weapon scalate and four wounds. 1714 01:44:55,160 --> 01:44:58,120 So it's he's, he's pretty solid, I think. 1715 01:44:58,920 --> 01:44:59,920 He's not. Yeah. 1716 01:45:00,280 --> 01:45:04,080 And well, the extra point weapon skill and the hatred, combine 1717 01:45:04,080 --> 01:45:09,120 those two and he's just, yeah, he's probably hitting, you know, 1718 01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:11,240 you probably give him something like a black camera hash shot or 1719 01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:12,960 something like that. And he's he's going to do a lot 1720 01:45:12,960 --> 01:45:14,480 of damage. Yeah, as well. 1721 01:45:14,480 --> 01:45:19,200 So absolutely. And what's their model released 1722 01:45:19,200 --> 01:45:22,480 for him specifically? Not a dedicated model. 1723 01:45:22,480 --> 01:45:24,200 Yeah. So I guess you would just use 1724 01:45:24,200 --> 01:45:34,040 the the Lord on the Taurus. That's the yeah, exactly right. 1725 01:45:34,040 --> 01:45:37,320 So yeah, pretty generic in one sense. 1726 01:45:37,560 --> 01:45:41,920 He only has one special rule, the hatred, and then he's just 1727 01:45:42,360 --> 01:45:43,280 better. Really. 1728 01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:46,680 Yeah, normal. Yeah, and the extra Malik item. 1729 01:45:46,800 --> 01:45:51,400 Is also the end of aspiration. Yeah, 12 points, 12. 1730 01:45:53,200 --> 01:45:55,840 Points. One point in recess. 1731 01:45:56,640 --> 01:45:59,080 That's a lot, yeah. Yeah, yeah, a lot of it. 1732 01:45:59,320 --> 01:46:01,760 One's extra. Yeah, he will probably still be 1733 01:46:01,760 --> 01:46:06,560 worth it because like that. And, and he says it, he may, 1734 01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:09,160 yeah, he may be led by. Yeah. 1735 01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:14,040 So I don't think it states you can't have a cursed wolf Lord 1736 01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:19,680 and him I can't. See Why not? 1737 01:46:20,360 --> 01:46:23,720 Yeah, which don't get me wrong, is a lot of points to be 1738 01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:26,000 spending out, but it doesn't say you can't. 1739 01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:29,080 So there'll be people, especially in bigger games where 1740 01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:30,840 they're going. Oh, I guess be another Lord in 1741 01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:34,680 it. So you kind of, you know, I 1742 01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:38,240 think there is wording there that needs to go in, but it 1743 01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:40,880 isn't there as in a lot of the Omnibooks to be fair. 1744 01:46:42,240 --> 01:46:44,960 Yeah, but all right. So yeah, definitely a very good 1745 01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:48,360 choice. If you want a Kierstwarf Lord, 1746 01:46:48,360 --> 01:46:52,960 that's the way to go. And then you have a Hobgoblin. 1747 01:46:54,240 --> 01:46:59,600 Yeah, Gordus Backstabber. So he's the only hobgoblin Lord 1748 01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:02,280 character. Otherwise you can only take hero 1749 01:47:02,280 --> 01:47:06,800 level hobgoblins. But yeah, so he has basically a 1750 01:47:06,800 --> 01:47:12,560 human Lord, just that line. Yeah, looks almost. 1751 01:47:13,080 --> 01:47:16,360 One less, yeah, and maybe 1 less. 1752 01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:24,040 Initiative, yeah, yeah. So it's only 93 points and I 1753 01:47:24,040 --> 01:47:28,720 mean he's only special rule is that he gets a four plus save 1754 01:47:28,720 --> 01:47:34,760 against losing his last wound. So when he's down to 1 wound, if 1755 01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:41,000 he loses that one, he gets a four plus special save which he 1756 01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:44,320 can use every time he loses his last one. 1757 01:47:45,280 --> 01:47:48,720 OK, yeah, so he can just keep rolling if he's lucky and stay 1758 01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:53,000 alive. If it actually says so long as 1759 01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:57,520 he stays lucky, yes. So yeah. 1760 01:47:58,760 --> 01:48:01,640 I guess they can have well because you have magic items I 1761 01:48:01,640 --> 01:48:03,560 guess he can have chaos matched. With. 1762 01:48:04,200 --> 01:48:07,200 Waterstone charm and just keep on well, not carrying any once, 1763 01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:09,160 but you know what I mean. You can really roll it out plus 1764 01:48:09,160 --> 01:48:11,720 1 -, 1. So that's probably quite a quite 1765 01:48:11,760 --> 01:48:14,360 a little cheap tactic to use with him. 1766 01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:20,000 Yeah, so he can have 33 magic items as he's the Lord, Yeah. 1767 01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:26,000 He may die. That's what so you can put them 1768 01:48:26,160 --> 01:48:29,000 on. Light armour so, but he can have 1769 01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:31,280 of course magic armour, so it's. Not too bad. 1770 01:48:34,120 --> 01:48:40,320 And I guess not too bad if you want a bit of more durable wool. 1771 01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:44,400 Friday units for goblins could be nice. 1772 01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:48,600 Yeah, he does have, yeah. He can. 1773 01:48:48,600 --> 01:48:53,640 Find. Yeah, and you can of course give 1774 01:48:53,640 --> 01:48:59,920 him items to make him, you know, it's not just a human in the 1775 01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:06,480 coast combat, so too bad. Did he get a model? 1776 01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:13,400 No, there was a goblin Lord on a wolf. 1777 01:49:14,280 --> 01:49:16,680 You could use that one to represent him I guess. 1778 01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:22,280 He looks very important and kitted out so. 1779 01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:24,200 Yeah, why not? Lovely. 1780 01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:25,960 Is that the one with the extra big hat? 1781 01:49:27,080 --> 01:49:29,760 Yeah, yeah. So that's for horns. 1782 01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:33,880 And he's a big axe over his head and a shield. 1783 01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:36,920 And he also has a bow actually on on him, so. 1784 01:49:37,240 --> 01:49:39,680 Yeah. And a big cloak, Yeah. 1785 01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,800 So it's a great model. He's a lovely model. 1786 01:49:45,360 --> 01:49:51,040 Yeah, very good. And then we have Astrov. 1787 01:49:52,320 --> 01:49:59,080 Yes. He had a model at least, so he's 1788 01:49:59,440 --> 01:50:02,760 30 points more than a sorcerer Lord. 1789 01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:11,640 And for that you get weapons Q6 Strength 5A3 plus armor save and 1790 01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:18,480 movement 6 and the movement is he always moves at the movement 1791 01:50:18,480 --> 01:50:21,320 6. So even if he charges or flees 1792 01:50:21,320 --> 01:50:26,840 or no, not flees but marches so charges he always gets 6 so he 1793 01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:29,800 he doesn't double that one, but he he's always moving at the 1794 01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:36,000 moment 6 and he he doesn't suffer that -1 to pursuit or 1795 01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:40,000 flee moves as usual dwarfs. So he's a bit faster. 1796 01:50:42,800 --> 01:50:46,560 And the extra special attack thing. 1797 01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:51,120 Yeah, so if you hit with all of his three attacks, he gets 1798 01:50:51,120 --> 01:50:54,480 another three attacks. So actually, so obviously you 1799 01:50:54,480 --> 01:50:58,520 give him the Blade of Darting Steel and yeah, you get 6 1800 01:50:58,520 --> 01:51:02,920 automatic strength, five hits. Yeah, yeah, because he can 1801 01:51:03,280 --> 01:51:09,520 choose his own magic items. So that's a bit bit sticky and a 1802 01:51:10,160 --> 01:51:12,760 portion of strength or something in each of at least one pretty 1803 01:51:12,760 --> 01:51:14,840 devastating round of attack. Ouch. 1804 01:51:15,640 --> 01:51:23,680 So I mean, yeah, he's a level 4 wizard and I don't know, kind of 1805 01:51:23,680 --> 01:51:26,040 cool model. I think he's riding around in 1806 01:51:26,040 --> 01:51:30,920 the in a mechanical suit because his legs have turned to stone. 1807 01:51:32,080 --> 01:51:34,960 I only noticed the other day that his body is amongst that, 1808 01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:36,360 so I just thought it was kind of his head. 1809 01:51:36,600 --> 01:51:39,440 You could only see his head, but now if you actually look at the 1810 01:51:39,440 --> 01:51:41,000 model you can see his body riding. 1811 01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:47,080 You can see his feet underneath the beard and it's all crackly 1812 01:51:47,080 --> 01:51:50,520 like it's stone. So it's they, they did think 1813 01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:53,360 about it when they when they designed. 1814 01:51:53,920 --> 01:52:00,400 It. So I I don't know if you could 1815 01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:04,120 probably use him to move around on his own. 1816 01:52:04,120 --> 01:52:09,000 I don't know if he's bit faster than normal Chaos Dwarfs. 1817 01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:14,000 It's a bit tougher as well. Yeah, bit almost safe. 1818 01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:18,320 Cool. And he got a model, but that was 1819 01:52:18,720 --> 01:52:19,640 later. Was it? 1820 01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:20,920 It's not fit. It was a. 1821 01:52:21,520 --> 01:52:23,880 Bit later, yeah. It's round about the same time 1822 01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:26,920 as the book, wasn't it I think. Yeah, I think it was. 1823 01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:34,680 The article was in, I think it was in May 95, was the White 1824 01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:38,200 Dwarf article about him? So I guess the model came around 1825 01:52:38,200 --> 01:52:40,320 there. Yeah. 1826 01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:43,800 OK. So they only had three choices, 1827 01:52:43,800 --> 01:52:47,520 but they will seem like reasonable choices, all of them 1828 01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:53,400 that you could include and you know, not I mean. 1829 01:52:53,440 --> 01:52:56,840 They they they seem to have a place. 1830 01:52:57,320 --> 01:52:59,720 If you want to you, you could use them. 1831 01:52:59,920 --> 01:53:01,080 They're not terrible. I. 1832 01:53:01,640 --> 01:53:05,560 Think. No, and none of them are limited 1833 01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:08,560 in the choices of medic items. They don't have any dedicated 1834 01:53:08,560 --> 01:53:11,000 medic items, which is also often. 1835 01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:16,640 So the downside of the special characters, if they're mandatory 1836 01:53:16,640 --> 01:53:19,680 items, are not great, which is sometimes the case. 1837 01:53:20,640 --> 01:53:24,880 OK, so one thing we haven't spoken about yet is the KS wolf 1838 01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:27,400 magic. We've spoken about it briefly, 1839 01:53:27,400 --> 01:53:29,680 but maybe we can just look at those for a little bit. 1840 01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:32,880 So are they only spells that sort of stand out or are they 1841 01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:38,040 versions of the sort of standard spells that they have, a magic 1842 01:53:38,040 --> 01:53:40,480 missile and so on? Maybe they are not too special, 1843 01:53:40,480 --> 01:53:43,040 but do you have any favourites or? 1844 01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:49,200 Well I think they're pretty nice overall. 1845 01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:55,360 One thing to note, there is a lot of power 2 spells, most of 1846 01:53:55,360 --> 01:54:03,800 them are power 2, only one power 3 spell which is eruption and 1847 01:54:03,800 --> 01:54:08,640 that one is probably pretty good as low initiative armies. 1848 01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:13,920 So you place the template and anything under have to pass an 1849 01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:19,160 initiative test or just die without any wounds or anything. 1850 01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:22,720 He has to remove the model. So you can potentially out kill 1851 01:54:22,720 --> 01:54:26,080 some big stuff. But yeah, it depends on the 1852 01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:30,360 initiative. And then you have some sort of 1853 01:54:30,360 --> 01:54:35,000 versions of SSL standard stuff. You have, I think, like a 1854 01:54:35,120 --> 01:54:38,440 personal movement spell for the cost of the Magpul. 1855 01:54:39,000 --> 01:54:41,120 Right. Move around a bit. 1856 01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:45,480 Yeah, it's like a teleport. You can move anywhere on the 1857 01:54:45,480 --> 01:54:49,040 table. And I mean if you look at the 1858 01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:53,120 college schematic for example, most of the decks have one of 1859 01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:57,400 those so you can use it to charge for. 1860 01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:00,120 Yes, you can move into close. Combat. 1861 01:55:00,760 --> 01:55:06,400 Yeah, and you have a close combat sort of weapon thing. 1862 01:55:06,400 --> 01:55:09,240 Fist of fire, I suppose. Yes. 1863 01:55:11,280 --> 01:55:15,520 Yeah, you're flaming hide and you've got a combat monster, so 1864 01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:18,000 you'll fist a fire flaming hide and Mag and Paul, you're, you 1865 01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:19,280 know what your whizzers are doing. 1866 01:55:21,000 --> 01:55:23,400 Good to go. Absolutely. 1867 01:55:24,160 --> 01:55:28,920 One that I like is Lava Storm, so it's power 2 range 18, so 2D 1868 01:55:28,920 --> 01:55:33,000 six hits that wound on a four up and no arm saves. 1869 01:55:33,200 --> 01:55:35,920 So it's pretty solid, I think, yeah. 1870 01:55:39,720 --> 01:55:41,440 There's another one. Sources Curse. 1871 01:55:41,600 --> 01:55:45,480 What's that one do? Yeah, so the victim must roll 1872 01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:51,080 less than their strength on 2D6 or they can do nothing for an 1873 01:55:51,080 --> 01:55:53,880 entire term and it remains in play. 1874 01:55:53,920 --> 01:56:00,840 So on a like a sorcerer Lord or something with strength four 1875 01:56:01,680 --> 01:56:04,960 could be should shut them down, yes. 1876 01:56:08,120 --> 01:56:13,320 Yeah, and then they have a sort of a template weapon, Flames of 1877 01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:17,520 Asgor. Yeah, yeah. 1878 01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:21,800 So it's a straight for it. That was actually the only spell 1879 01:56:21,800 --> 01:56:26,320 that changed to as it moved into 5th edition, the 5th edition 1880 01:56:26,320 --> 01:56:29,000 Magic Box. So then they removed the 1881 01:56:29,000 --> 01:56:32,640 template because it used the flame template. 1882 01:56:32,960 --> 01:56:39,480 But then then it used I think it did a round with a 12 range and 1883 01:56:39,480 --> 01:56:42,800 just placed the round template instead. 1884 01:56:43,440 --> 01:56:47,280 I don't know why because it had a teardrop. 1885 01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:51,240 You know the teardrop flame templates in the 4th edition 1886 01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:54,040 version? Yeah, go ahead. 1887 01:56:54,040 --> 01:56:55,920 Strange. Yeah, yeah. 1888 01:56:55,920 --> 01:57:01,880 I don't know why. OK, let's see what we have more 1889 01:57:02,080 --> 01:57:06,440 doom roar trying to. Yeah, it's kind of a utility 1890 01:57:06,480 --> 01:57:10,320 spell, yeah. So any any units in Hunter and 1891 01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:14,240 combat must take a panic test. Any enemy units and any fleeing 1892 01:57:14,240 --> 01:57:19,800 units are rallied automatically. So some medicators that do 1893 01:57:19,800 --> 01:57:22,360 similar stuff, is it there or is it combination? 1894 01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:26,720 Of yeah, is it a horn of or something like that? 1895 01:57:26,760 --> 01:57:29,320 Yeah, I think that's breaking the enemy, but I think there's 1896 01:57:29,320 --> 01:57:32,880 one that rallies. So maybe that's a combination of 1897 01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:35,480 two existing antique items somewhere. 1898 01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:40,640 And you also have ash cloud, which is pretty nice. 1899 01:57:40,640 --> 01:57:45,080 I mean, you, you have the enemy units, movement, weapon skill, 1900 01:57:45,080 --> 01:57:47,320 Ballistics skill, initiative and attacks. 1901 01:57:48,440 --> 01:57:52,600 And it remains in place. So you can, yeah, shut down a 1902 01:57:52,600 --> 01:57:56,200 unit. Combine that with a couple of of 1903 01:57:56,320 --> 01:57:58,840 shaky cannons and just going to love you. 1904 01:58:03,920 --> 01:58:05,560 Yeah, that'd be very frustrating. 1905 01:58:06,320 --> 01:58:12,240 Yeah, but it seems like most spells are useful. 1906 01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:17,680 I mean, they do. It's a good mix of attack and 1907 01:58:18,240 --> 01:58:22,720 like buff spells. I think it's quite a good list. 1908 01:58:23,280 --> 01:58:27,440 And frustrating spells as well. Yeah, not much defensive though. 1909 01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:29,280 They haven't got anything defensive, but again, that's 1910 01:58:29,280 --> 01:58:31,920 because it's. Casual, it's very it's just the 1911 01:58:31,920 --> 01:58:34,920 the four are the same with the the flaming hive. 1912 01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:37,040 Hive, yeah. Yeah. 1913 01:58:37,520 --> 01:58:40,280 And I mean, if you sort of go with the idea that they are, 1914 01:58:40,760 --> 01:58:44,000 well, they're not actually linked to corn in this one, but 1915 01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:46,960 you know, in general, they're sort of in your face, but. 1916 01:58:47,120 --> 01:58:47,840 They are. They are. 1917 01:58:47,840 --> 01:58:50,880 Volcanoes aren't there. That's, that's, that's the idea. 1918 01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:53,000 So it's, it's shadow and flaming, the sense, you know, 1919 01:58:53,000 --> 01:58:55,280 volcano erupting and all the smoke comes out of the volcano 1920 01:58:55,280 --> 01:58:57,280 as well. So kind of understandable. 1921 01:58:57,280 --> 01:59:00,800 They're not very defensive. It's, it's, you know, they're an 1922 01:59:00,800 --> 01:59:03,440 offensive army. Yeah, volcanoes are usually 1923 01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:08,880 pretty aggressive, right? So I think we have the most of 1924 01:59:08,880 --> 01:59:14,480 the actual book do Ted, for example, do we have any like 1925 01:59:15,440 --> 01:59:17,160 summary? Why do you love? 1926 01:59:18,560 --> 01:59:22,680 Well, I guess it's the the imagery, it's like, I always 1927 01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:26,920 liked evil factions. But yeah, but they, they have 1928 01:59:26,920 --> 01:59:30,360 quite a unique look, I think. I mean, if you compare with the 1929 01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:35,080 normal dwarfs, they're pretty standard like fantasy dwarf 1930 01:59:35,080 --> 01:59:37,520 imagery. But the Chaos Dwarfs have their 1931 01:59:37,520 --> 01:59:42,800 own unique Warhammer look. I think it's like this Assyrian, 1932 01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:49,640 Babylonian imagery draws pretty heavily on actual imagery from 1933 01:59:49,640 --> 01:59:54,360 that from the ancient era. So it's, it's feels very rooted 1934 01:59:54,360 --> 01:59:59,320 in like our history and, but it's also of course, combined 1935 01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:03,560 with the fantasy elements of the, the chaos influence. 1936 02:00:04,240 --> 02:00:07,920 And I think it's quite interesting that they're, 1937 02:00:08,000 --> 02:00:12,440 they're chaos aligned, but they're not really part of chaos 1938 02:00:12,440 --> 02:00:14,040 as such. They're they're kind of their 1939 02:00:14,040 --> 02:00:17,080 own thing they're doing. Their own thing they're in the 1940 02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:23,800 dark lands yeah and also the differences between the normal 1941 02:00:23,800 --> 02:00:26,560 dwarfs so they can have like we said, monsters. 1942 02:00:26,560 --> 02:00:31,840 They work with the greenskins they have magic so it's they're 1943 02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:37,280 quite the yeah, the mirror image, so to speak of the the 1944 02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:42,000 normal dwarfs yeah. I think they're they're kind of 1945 02:00:42,000 --> 02:00:48,320 interesting, but it's a shame they they never really got yeah, 1946 02:00:48,320 --> 02:00:53,640 true Army book and and yeah. Yeah, because this was the only 1947 02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:57,920 army book they ever. Got actually, yeah, yeah, they 1948 02:00:57,920 --> 02:01:05,080 got rules in the the Revenue Hordes 6th edition list where 1949 02:01:05,080 --> 02:01:08,080 Blunderbuss has actually got move and fire. 1950 02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:12,200 Otherwise it was pretty similar, yeah. 1951 02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:17,240 Yeah, and but I mean against workshop they they never quite 1952 02:01:17,240 --> 02:01:20,200 dropped them. I mean they sort of kept them on 1953 02:01:20,200 --> 02:01:23,840 a slow burn and you know, they popped up now and then. 1954 02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:27,760 So and I don't know in the old world or the animationing of 1955 02:01:27,760 --> 02:01:30,280 those. Do you know maybe we don't talk 1956 02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:32,440 I. I only know that they have. 1957 02:01:32,760 --> 02:01:37,160 I think there was some symbols on the maps indicating that 1958 02:01:37,160 --> 02:01:40,360 there were chaos tours in the Darklands, but. 1959 02:01:41,040 --> 02:01:42,880 So maybe they open for the opportunity, but. 1960 02:01:43,120 --> 02:01:45,840 Yeah, I mean, they're still there in the background at 1961 02:01:45,840 --> 02:01:49,120 least, but I don't know if they're planning to do something 1962 02:01:49,160 --> 02:01:51,480 maybe. So. 1963 02:01:51,480 --> 02:01:55,120 That they are in the Total War 3 computer game. 1964 02:01:55,600 --> 02:02:00,080 They release the Chaos Tour, so maybe that's an indication, I 1965 02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:03,520 don't know. Yeah, special little shout out 1966 02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:10,080 to the Storm of Chaos cannon, Warp cannon, whatever it's got 1967 02:02:10,080 --> 02:02:11,360 work. On Yeah, yeah, they have the 1968 02:02:11,360 --> 02:02:14,800 Chaos Dwarf crew, yeah. Yeah, because the crew are kind 1969 02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:17,920 of a hybrid of the two styles of Chaos Dwarf. 1970 02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:23,360 They're kind of a match of of yeah, the big hat style and the 1971 02:02:23,920 --> 02:02:28,200 little cows warrior style. So so I actually think the crew, 1972 02:02:29,200 --> 02:02:32,400 the model's nice, but I think the crew are nicer than than the 1973 02:02:32,400 --> 02:02:34,400 Canon itself. Hell cannon that's. 1974 02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:36,360 Hell Cannon. That's the name. 1975 02:02:37,120 --> 02:02:41,080 Which I always think is also not not only the earth shake and 1976 02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:44,320 it's the heart back to the old ass cannon yeah I. 1977 02:02:44,400 --> 02:02:47,560 Was thinking about. That possibly between those two, 1978 02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:49,240 you kind of put them together and you get the hell cannon. 1979 02:02:51,240 --> 02:02:54,920 Yeah, that was sort of a the idea that I think was a demon in 1980 02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:56,600 a sense. It can sort of run around on the 1981 02:02:56,600 --> 02:02:58,760 sound of it. Yeah, it was. 1982 02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:00,160 It was from a very different era. 1983 02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:06,080 Yeah, so they're not quite forgotten, but you have to dig 1984 02:03:06,080 --> 02:03:08,960 pretty deep to get out the action models. 1985 02:03:09,440 --> 02:03:13,440 They live in our hearts. They do black black dog. 1986 02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:19,200 Hearts. Right. 1987 02:03:19,320 --> 02:03:25,080 So do you have any other thoughts finishing words or 1988 02:03:25,160 --> 02:03:29,200 should we wrap this one up and? What he has done is probably to 1989 02:03:29,200 --> 02:03:34,600 look at the for Basil sculpts again. 1990 02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:38,040 I started picking some up a little while ago, and I think 1991 02:03:38,040 --> 02:03:39,880 you need to get back to picking them up just so I've got them, 1992 02:03:40,160 --> 02:03:42,960 you know, in the bag ready to go whenever I'm ready to paint my 1993 02:03:42,960 --> 02:03:47,480 castles because I do have some of the plastic ones from 4th 1994 02:03:47,480 --> 02:03:51,240 edition, the Chaos Warriors. But that's all. 1995 02:03:51,240 --> 02:03:55,440 And yeah, I don't want to auction a kidney to, you know, 1996 02:03:55,800 --> 02:03:59,440 to buy like a couple of models on eBay. 1997 02:04:01,520 --> 02:04:03,280 Yeah, I think going down the Thorbasal route just because 1998 02:04:03,280 --> 02:04:05,360 it's, yeah, it's more cost effective. 1999 02:04:06,440 --> 02:04:09,200 And I do plan on patenting gestures at some point because I 2000 02:04:09,200 --> 02:04:14,360 want to have the fun of the. The main is it's the magic that 2001 02:04:14,360 --> 02:04:16,080 attracts me to them. I've got to be honest, I think 2002 02:04:16,080 --> 02:04:19,480 that's really cool and fun and I want to make little volcanoes 2003 02:04:19,480 --> 02:04:26,960 everywhere, so. And Ted, is your KS Wolf project 2004 02:04:27,080 --> 02:04:28,600 finished or do you still have some? 2005 02:04:30,120 --> 02:04:34,360 More or less. I still have one Earth Shaker 2006 02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:39,600 cannon unpainted, but that's the only thing that's not done. 2007 02:04:39,680 --> 02:04:42,360 So it's, yeah, more or less done I would say. 2008 02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:46,960 Yeah, so I hope you will be able to take to the battlefield at 2009 02:04:46,960 --> 02:04:49,560 some point and try it out. I hope so. 2010 02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:52,360 Which one? Yeah, should try to get a game 2011 02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:56,680 some points to that. We live on different sides of 2012 02:04:56,680 --> 02:04:59,920 the country, but should be possible, I hope. 2013 02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:02,200 Yeah. What's when you organise? 2014 02:05:03,400 --> 02:05:06,200 When you organise Swedish oil, you'll be able to do it. 2015 02:05:06,800 --> 02:05:09,040 Yeah, we have. We have very, very loosely 2016 02:05:09,040 --> 02:05:10,360 talked about it at. Some point. 2017 02:05:11,160 --> 02:05:15,640 But I think we need to plan that whole lot better if we get that 2018 02:05:15,640 --> 02:05:17,400 done. But it would be very nice to 2019 02:05:17,400 --> 02:05:21,160 have sort of a more event scenario driven. 2020 02:05:23,880 --> 02:05:26,160 Yeah, something like boil would be great. 2021 02:05:26,640 --> 02:05:28,760 Yeah, not so much the tournament, but rather, you 2022 02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:30,440 know, just playing games and yeah. 2023 02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:33,720 Turn up and organise games. Just have a gaming weekend. 2024 02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:36,720 It's it's can't promote Boil enough. 2025 02:05:36,720 --> 02:05:38,680 It's, it's fantastic. I'm looking forward to this 2026 02:05:38,680 --> 02:05:42,600 year's one where I will be playing a lot of 2nd edition 2027 02:05:42,600 --> 02:05:44,000 40K. Not. 2028 02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:47,880 Not edition Warhammer. Shocking. 2029 02:05:48,200 --> 02:05:52,560 It's definitely on my bucket list to visit Boyle, I just have 2030 02:05:52,560 --> 02:05:54,800 to plan that up a little bit soon. 2031 02:05:55,680 --> 02:05:59,360 But would be that that one and the Polish one seems found as 2032 02:05:59,360 --> 02:06:01,640 well. That's that's why I've got a 2033 02:06:01,640 --> 02:06:03,280 little bit quiet on the 4th edition groups. 2034 02:06:03,280 --> 02:06:06,960 I'm currently painting up some bad Moon Hawks so which which 2035 02:06:06,960 --> 02:06:11,160 sadly don't really fit with them posting to the 4th edition 2036 02:06:11,160 --> 02:06:12,600 group. So if everything went a bit 2037 02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:15,600 quiet at the moment, that's why. Yeah, afternoon. 2038 02:06:15,920 --> 02:06:19,120 I'll be back. Expect some an avalanche of 2039 02:06:19,200 --> 02:06:21,960 pictures I. Don't know about that, but yeah, 2040 02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:28,360 an avalanche, yeah, that's probably better. 2041 02:06:28,360 --> 02:06:32,640 Yeah, I've done some. I've I've finished my our bikes 2042 02:06:32,640 --> 02:06:35,680 now, so they'll come up at some point, probably the old hammer 2043 02:06:35,680 --> 02:06:37,840 group, I'd have thought and the second issue one may the second 2044 02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:40,880 group may be, but I feel like a bit of a fraud posting in there 2045 02:06:40,880 --> 02:06:44,440 because I haven't, you know, contributed regularly what it's 2046 02:06:44,480 --> 02:06:45,880 like. Oh yeah, I've also done these 2047 02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:48,160 and was like this. I've ever got them. 2048 02:06:52,280 --> 02:06:55,960 OK. So I guess that's it for today. 2049 02:06:56,000 --> 02:07:00,280 We managed to solid at least two hours in the bids. 2050 02:07:00,720 --> 02:07:05,320 So yeah, good one. And of course then while 2051 02:07:05,320 --> 02:07:10,760 listening, please do post up your own pictures on for 2052 02:07:10,760 --> 02:07:13,840 additional kind of command or wherever you want to post it, 2053 02:07:13,840 --> 02:07:17,680 but just post. That's always nice to see show. 2054 02:07:18,040 --> 02:07:19,640 You the love. Yeah. 2055 02:07:21,120 --> 02:07:23,280 So thank you very much. Thank you. 2056 02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:24,280 Cool. Have a good day. 2057 02:07:24,280 --> 02:07:25,160 Cheers. Bye. 2058 02:07:25,200 --> 02:07:26,000 See you. Bye. 2059 02:07:26,000 --> 02:07:26,920 Bye. Bye. 2060 02:07:27,160 --> 02:07:35,280 Bye. Oh. 2061 02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:41,680 Hello my friends, my name is Owen and I do a lot of the voice 2062 02:07:41,680 --> 02:07:45,080 overs for these Crown of Command videos, including this one. 2063 02:07:45,920 --> 02:07:50,560 If you enjoy what I do, why not follow my podcast Time Between 2064 02:07:50,560 --> 02:07:54,360 Times, which tells myths, legends, and ghost stories from 2065 02:07:54,360 --> 02:07:58,120 all around the world? Or you could buy me a coffee at 2066 02:07:58,120 --> 02:08:02,440 coffee.com/owen Statement or become a patron at 2067 02:08:02,440 --> 02:08:08,080 patreon.com/owen Staton 7. I'm also available for any voice 2068 02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:13,040 over work you might want doing. Go to welshstoryteller.com and 2069 02:08:13,040 --> 02:08:15,560 get in touch the offer in the eye.