1
00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,200
Yeah. 
No, Henry, Look, I'm absolutely 

2
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,680
privileged to have you on the 
crown of command. 

3
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,800
I know we tried to do this some 
time ago, a couple years ago 

4
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,960
during the pandemic, but for 
some reason that the time zones 

5
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,560
were all mixed up. 
And I felt really bad that we 

6
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,440
just couldn't get that show 
together. 

7
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,800
We couldn't meet in person and 
talk together. 

8
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,960
But this time it's the second 
time the revenge recording as 

9
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,560
they say, you know, so I'm 
really that we can finally meet 

10
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,320
and talk in virtual space and 
that you can come on and talk to

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00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,640
our listeners in the Crown 
Command and to Share your story 

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00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,520
mate and to show and to tell who
you are and your place in the 

13
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,280
hobby. 
So thanks for coming on. 

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00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,200
Well, you're very welcome. 
I mean, and seriously, I'm 

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00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,880
delighted. 
I'm always. 

16
00:00:57,790 --> 00:01:00,030
You know, you you've picked me 
up so much online. 

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It's, it's lovely, Josh, but I'm
always slightly surprised when 

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people want to interview me, 
right. 

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00:01:05,230 --> 00:01:09,830
And it's it's, it's something 
that I've got much, you know, 

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better about dealing with. 
But I think it comes from kind 

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of imposter syndrome that I 
suffered with for a long, long 

22
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time. 
But I've for various reasons, 

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I've learned a lot of psychology
in the last couple of years. 

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So now it's like, well, I 
suppose apart from anything 

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00:01:22,470 --> 00:01:25,670
else, I have been around quite a
long time and I suppose I have 

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got a kind of prominence in the 
hobby. 

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Partly because, well, for a 
number of reasons, I think. 

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Well, back in the day when I 
launched my own magazine, you 

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know, back in 2006, you know 
that I suppose put me, gave me a

30
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kind of prominence that I hadn't
had before. 

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Although to be honest, I kind 
of, I suppose I kind of put my 

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head above the parapet wall. 
This is ancient history for some

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people. 
I did my created my first battle

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Games website on the 18th of 
June, which is Waterloo Day in 

35
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1998. 
Back in the days when I was one 

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of the very first web designers 
in our part of the UK and I was 

37
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saying to clients, oh, I could 
do a web because we called them 

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00:02:13,450 --> 00:02:17,090
web pages back then, didn't we? 
I could do a web page for you 

39
00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:21,200
and they were saying either. 
What the Hell's a web page or 

40
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,760
why the hell would I ever want a
web page? 

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00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,680
So it was like, you know, for 
quite some time I was knocking 

42
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,840
on people's door and so actually
starting my first battle games 

43
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website originally was actually 
just a result of a self 

44
00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,920
brainstorm thinking about what 
could I do. 

45
00:02:42,630 --> 00:02:47,030
To convince my graphic design 
clients that I can do websites 

46
00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:48,430
and that they're a worthwhile 
thing. 

47
00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:51,750
And I was like, oh God, so I was
in a reenactment group at the 

48
00:02:51,750 --> 00:02:56,190
time. 
And so I did a little web page 

49
00:02:56,270 --> 00:02:59,510
for what was then the Shire of 
the Seven Deans. 

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And part, if people listening 
might have heard of an 

51
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organization called the SCA, the
Society for Creative 

52
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Anachronism, which is a big. 
Actually based in America 

53
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organization, but has worldwide 
membership and we have great fun

54
00:03:14,060 --> 00:03:17,620
dressing up in full armor and 
whacking the hell out of one 

55
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another. 
On hot days like today. 

56
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I seem to remember there's 
nothing quite like the smell of 

57
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a sweaty Gambason. 
So but I started as a website 

58
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for that and then I thought, 
what else can I do? 

59
00:03:30,460 --> 00:03:35,890
Well, OK, I'm a war gamer. 
And you know you back then we 

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had the magazines, we had War 
Games Illustrated, we had 

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miniature War Games. 
We had for a time as well. 

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Practical War Gamer had had died
out just a few years before. 

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I think it was just before War 
Game soldiers and strategy came 

64
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on the scene. 
But there'd been things like 

65
00:03:52,690 --> 00:03:54,890
Battle magazine and stuff and I 
thought, well. 

66
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Surely there must be, you know, 
war games out there. 

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I knew a lot of war games were 
quite tech minded, so I thought,

68
00:04:02,370 --> 00:04:06,690
I bet there's some out there. 
So I created the Battle Games 

69
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website, which was what we'd now
of course we'd call it a blog, 

70
00:04:09,890 --> 00:04:12,130
but back then no one had heard 
of the word blog. 

71
00:04:12,130 --> 00:04:13,290
It was, you know, it was a web 
page. 

72
00:04:14,530 --> 00:04:18,209
And to my astonishment, people 
started emailing me. 

73
00:04:18,209 --> 00:04:21,250
I mean, e-mail was a pretty rare
thing back then anyway. 

74
00:04:21,250 --> 00:04:25,410
But suddenly there was a guy in 
Latvia emailed me. 

75
00:04:25,410 --> 00:04:30,010
And someone in South America and
Portugal and the the United 

76
00:04:30,010 --> 00:04:34,000
States and Australia. 
Oh my God, where are these 

77
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,040
people coming from? 
And within a matter of weeks, 

78
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,840
suddenly I had hundreds, which 
back then was big audience time.

79
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,520
Hundreds of people logging onto 
my battle games website and my 

80
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,520
the Internet service provider I 
was using at the time, I won an 

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00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,640
award for their best performing 
website a couple of months 

82
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,840
running back then. 
You know, because this was 

83
00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:00,350
before. 
Big businesses had really kind 

84
00:05:00,350 --> 00:05:02,870
of latched on, you know, So 
anyone who was attracting like, 

85
00:05:03,310 --> 00:05:06,750
you know, a few 100 or even into
the low thousands of visits a 

86
00:05:06,750 --> 00:05:10,750
month was like, whoa, big time. 
So they got really interested in

87
00:05:10,750 --> 00:05:14,350
me and I showcased what I did 
and that was great because it 

88
00:05:14,350 --> 00:05:17,430
also meant that some of my 
clients started knocking on my 

89
00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:20,070
door and saying, oh, you said 
you could do one of those web 

90
00:05:20,070 --> 00:05:23,350
page things for me, Henry, oh, I
saw you in the, you know, this 

91
00:05:23,350 --> 00:05:26,390
local thing. 
How about could you do 1 for me?

92
00:05:27,410 --> 00:05:30,770
So that was how the Battle Games
thing started back in 1998. 

93
00:05:31,890 --> 00:05:35,570
And obviously, so the website's 
been running now for Oh my God, 

94
00:05:35,570 --> 00:05:37,770
how many years is that? 
You know, we're coming up for 

95
00:05:39,170 --> 00:05:41,650
Wow coming up for 30 years, 
aren't we? 

96
00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:44,530
That's mad. 
That's mad. 

97
00:05:45,090 --> 00:05:51,570
And so I kind of felt that, you 
know, that I'm happy with this 

98
00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:54,130
and it gave me a kind of an 
online presence in the hobby 

99
00:05:54,130 --> 00:05:56,450
that was really surprising to 
me, you know? 

100
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:03,000
And then obviously what then 
happened was, gosh, back in the 

101
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:09,840
days of Yahoo groups, if people 
here remember the Yahoo online 

102
00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:15,480
groups, back in the days when 
lots of us were still on forums,

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00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,640
old fashioned forums and things,
the Yahoo groups, there was a 

104
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,920
group started called Old School 
War Gaming and it turned out 

105
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,300
there were some guys on there. 
It started off, didn't have a 

106
00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:30,980
lot of members, a couple of 100 
members, but they all seemed to 

107
00:06:30,980 --> 00:06:34,740
remember an article I'd written 
in Miniature War Games magazine 

108
00:06:34,740 --> 00:06:38,300
back in Oh my goodness. 
I mean, 1986, right? 

109
00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:43,420
All about fictitious wars, what 
are now called imaginations. 

110
00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:48,460
And so I joined this group and 
they're like, wow, you're Henry.

111
00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:50,140
Wow. 
We remember that thing you wrote

112
00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:53,860
with the illustrations you did. 
And and I was like blindly 

113
00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:55,660
really. 
You know, because. 

114
00:06:56,060 --> 00:07:00,220
Back in 1986, pre Internet days,
you sent an article out. 

115
00:07:00,580 --> 00:07:03,460
If you were lucky, the editor 
sent you a check in return, you 

116
00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:07,980
know, and that was kind of it. 
You know, we, we were living in 

117
00:07:08,060 --> 00:07:10,700
such siloed existences back 
then. 

118
00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:14,420
But in comparison, you know, you
hoped that someone might have 

119
00:07:14,420 --> 00:07:16,140
read it. 
So when I joined this Yahoo 

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group and they were all saying, 
oh wow, Henry, you you're the 

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00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:22,340
Henry that did that thing. 
And I was like, crikey, OK, 

122
00:07:22,380 --> 00:07:25,240
right. 
And there was some discussions 

123
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,080
in that group. 
It had been rumbling along for 

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00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,720
about a year, I suppose, and 
there was a lot of discussion 

125
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,000
about the fact that a lovely 
magazine. 

126
00:07:34,420 --> 00:07:38,740
Had been written, put together, 
edited by the now sadly late 

127
00:07:38,820 --> 00:07:43,140
Stuart Asquith, who was, you 
know, really quite well known in

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00:07:43,140 --> 00:07:47,220
historical war gaming circle. 
He'd been around for a long 

129
00:07:47,220 --> 00:07:51,060
time, but he'd had this magazine
called Practical War Gamer that 

130
00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:56,700
was really had a really lovely, 
very inclusive approach to the 

131
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hobby. 
There was no kind of. 

132
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,360
Oh my God. 
You know, if you can't, if I 

133
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,520
can't put it under the 
microscope and see the gold 

134
00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,520
braid in the material of that 
miniature that you're painting, 

135
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,320
You know, right then, then 
you're not working. 

136
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,000
Now his was completely the 
opposite. 

137
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,360
You know, I look back now and 
some of the stuff that they had 

138
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,270
in his pages. 
Was pretty slapdash to be 

139
00:08:18,270 --> 00:08:23,110
honest, but it had a really 
lovely inclusive feel to the 

140
00:08:23,110 --> 00:08:28,310
writing and it covered a broad 
range of stuff and also it 

141
00:08:28,310 --> 00:08:30,270
covered fantasy and sci-fi 
stuff. 

142
00:08:30,670 --> 00:08:37,590
In fact, he employed a guy well 
known called John Treadaway, who

143
00:08:37,830 --> 00:08:40,669
was one of the major organizers 
of the Salute show the South 

144
00:08:40,669 --> 00:08:44,470
London warlords, for a long time
and is now the editor of Finally

145
00:08:44,470 --> 00:08:49,660
Have Miniature War Games. 
But so a lot of people missed 

146
00:08:49,660 --> 00:08:52,980
that magazine, as did I, And it 
was like, oh, wouldn't it be 

147
00:08:52,980 --> 00:08:55,940
lovely if only someone picked up
that bat on and ran with it 

148
00:08:55,940 --> 00:08:56,940
again. 
You know, that kind. 

149
00:08:57,620 --> 00:09:02,260
Now the fact is, because of 
copyright issues and stuff and 

150
00:09:02,260 --> 00:09:06,060
the way the magazine had been 
owned by a company called Nexus 

151
00:09:06,060 --> 00:09:07,060
Who. 
Literally. 

152
00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:11,940
Just had rung Stuart one day and
said, Stuart, I'm sorry, there 

153
00:09:11,940 --> 00:09:15,180
won't be an issue next month. 
We're closing the magazine down.

154
00:09:15,180 --> 00:09:16,620
It's not making enough money for
us. 

155
00:09:17,060 --> 00:09:21,860
So the poor guy was just dumped 
on his ass, you know, and the 

156
00:09:21,860 --> 00:09:26,020
magazine just fell into nothing.
It just disappeared. 

157
00:09:27,580 --> 00:09:29,860
Anyway, a lot of these guys on 
this group said, oh, we really 

158
00:09:29,860 --> 00:09:32,460
missed that magazine it we had 
this lovely kind of old school 

159
00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:36,420
feel and all the rest of it. 
And I just realized, do you know

160
00:09:36,420 --> 00:09:39,620
what? 
No one's going to do something 

161
00:09:39,620 --> 00:09:42,860
about this, are they? 
Unless I do something about 

162
00:09:42,860 --> 00:09:45,580
this. 
So I launched my own magazine 

163
00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:48,900
called Battle Games and it had a
complicated start. 

164
00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:51,900
That was supposed to be someone 
else who was going to be helping

165
00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:55,420
me to do the magazine, and for 
all sorts of complex reasons, 

166
00:09:55,420 --> 00:09:58,100
they had to pull out of the 
venture. 

167
00:09:58,620 --> 00:10:01,500
Literally about a month before 
the 1st issue was due to go to 

168
00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:04,900
press and I, so I had one of 
those. 

169
00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:11,060
Seminal moments of OK, do I just
look at this and think, oh, that

170
00:10:11,060 --> 00:10:17,620
was a nice idea, Never mind. 
Or do I say it? 

171
00:10:18,580 --> 00:10:21,220
I'm going to, I'm going to do it
anyway, right? 

172
00:10:22,580 --> 00:10:27,100
And I'm a I I'm a kind of, let's
use Battlestar Galactica 

173
00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:30,020
terminology, I'm a fracket kind 
of guy, right. 

174
00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:33,300
And I just decided, you know 
what? 

175
00:10:34,390 --> 00:10:37,710
This is a once in a lifetime 
thing and I will regret it if I 

176
00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:40,470
don't give it a go. 
So how can I make this happen? 

177
00:10:40,470 --> 00:10:44,070
And I literally put out an 
appeal, said look, what I need 

178
00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:49,150
are what we call Charter 
subscribers who out there 

179
00:10:49,150 --> 00:10:53,190
please, will basically pay their
first year subscription upfront 

180
00:10:53,710 --> 00:10:57,390
to help me to pay the initial 
print bill to get it off the 

181
00:10:57,390 --> 00:11:00,830
ground. 
And I to my astonishment, 100 

182
00:11:00,830 --> 00:11:02,910
odd people said, yeah, I'll do 
that. 

183
00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:07,580
And I think there's something 
like 150 Charter subscribers, 

184
00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:11,900
which is astonishing. 
And also there were a couple of 

185
00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:13,620
friends who said, look, Henry, 
here we go. 

186
00:11:13,620 --> 00:11:15,540
Look, you know, we got fairly 
deep pockets. 

187
00:11:16,060 --> 00:11:18,660
We'll put it on the credit card 
for you, pay us back when you 

188
00:11:18,660 --> 00:11:23,700
can, which is like, wow. 
So Battle Games was launched. 

189
00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:29,940
That was in March 2006. 
It was a bimonthly magazine, and

190
00:11:29,940 --> 00:11:34,010
I was. 
Well, I was chef, top cook and 

191
00:11:34,010 --> 00:11:37,570
bottle washer. 
So I was commissioning articles 

192
00:11:37,570 --> 00:11:40,770
from other people and one of the
lovely things I managed to bring

193
00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:44,490
some old school people in on day
one. 

194
00:11:44,730 --> 00:11:46,690
Stuart Asquith who was still 
alive. 

195
00:11:46,690 --> 00:11:49,490
Then he came in and wrote some 
articles for me. 

196
00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:53,250
Charles Charles Stewart Grant, 
who is still alive with this 

197
00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:55,450
Brigadier ex, Brigadier Charles 
Grant. 

198
00:11:55,650 --> 00:11:59,730
He came in and. 
Revived his table top teaser 

199
00:11:59,730 --> 00:12:02,730
series, which if people don't 
know what table top teasers are,

200
00:12:02,730 --> 00:12:06,890
they're scenarios basically. 
So he would set up a scenario, 

201
00:12:07,090 --> 00:12:09,530
here's the scenario, here's the 
forces at your disposal. 

202
00:12:09,530 --> 00:12:13,690
Go on, have a go. 
And they've been really popular 

203
00:12:13,690 --> 00:12:17,330
back in Practical War Gamer 
magazine and previous magazines,

204
00:12:17,330 --> 00:12:19,890
actually military modeling with 
CARNAC magazine for years and 

205
00:12:19,890 --> 00:12:23,180
years before. 
So with those two big 

206
00:12:23,180 --> 00:12:26,340
heavyweights on board, a load of
other people said, Oh yeah, I'll

207
00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:29,180
write for you Henry. 
So but it was mad. 

208
00:12:29,180 --> 00:12:33,420
I mean it was just me here in in
the attic, which I think I've 

209
00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:36,660
told you but other people might 
not know, was christened by one 

210
00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:41,300
of my original battle games 
website visitors. 

211
00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:43,220
It was christened the Loft 
Buffer. 

212
00:12:43,460 --> 00:12:48,100
Right, which I thought, yeah, so
do I I thought it's stuck ever 

213
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:52,110
since and. 
So basically Battle Games 

214
00:12:52,110 --> 00:12:58,470
magazine did all right you know 
for probably about where I said 

215
00:12:58,470 --> 00:13:02,270
2006 two to 2011 and then but 
there was obviously it's a 

216
00:13:02,270 --> 00:13:05,990
highly competitive market and it
was just me up here in my attic 

217
00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:08,510
trying to do everything on my 
own or sorting out all the 

218
00:13:08,510 --> 00:13:12,710
advertising, writing loader, the
copy, doing the editing, sorting

219
00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:16,310
out the distribution. 
But da da da da mad really. 

220
00:13:16,750 --> 00:13:18,310
Don't know where I found the 
energy to do. 

221
00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:24,740
And so that it got to about 
2011. 

222
00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:30,420
And basically a couple of the 
other major magazines were War 

223
00:13:30,420 --> 00:13:33,020
Games Illustrated magazine that 
most a lot of people would have 

224
00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:37,500
heard of, got a huge cash 
injection when it became 

225
00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:42,540
partnered with shall we say 
Battlefront miniatures who gave 

226
00:13:42,540 --> 00:13:45,220
it a load of money, and War 
Games Soldiers and Strategy 

227
00:13:45,220 --> 00:13:47,420
magazine that had been Spanish 
owned. 

228
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:54,720
Got taken over by a Dutch 
company and they again injected 

229
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,520
a load of cash into that. 
And there was a little old me. 

230
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,840
I couldn't even afford to get 
onto the shelves of the big news

231
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,120
agents like WH Smiths over over 
here in the UK because again, I 

232
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,240
don't have people realized to 
get onto the shelves of a big 

233
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,380
chain newsagents. 
They take like 50% of your cover

234
00:14:13,380 --> 00:14:16,020
price. 
Plus, they demand that you have 

235
00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:22,180
to pay a special fee, a special 
promotional fee and of course, 

236
00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:25,460
you know, you wonder what kind 
of promotion are they actually 

237
00:14:25,460 --> 00:14:28,620
giving me other than 
condescending to actually put me

238
00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:33,640
on the shelf, right? 
So I you know that competition 

239
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,480
just went sky high because of 
course that suddenly looked the 

240
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,440
magazines look really glossy and
glamorous and huge. 

241
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,520
I think War Games Illustrated 
suddenly jumped up to like well 

242
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,440
over 100 pages every month and 
this little old me every other 

243
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:53,040
month saying please hello, so 
things got really difficult and 

244
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,160
it was going to hit the buffers 
and so I actually, I was just 

245
00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,760
really honest with my 
subscribers and said look. 

246
00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:03,860
This is the situation. 
I don't know if I can carry on. 

247
00:15:05,220 --> 00:15:08,100
And I put my tin hat on and went
into the bunker and thought, Oh 

248
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:10,700
my God, you know, people are 
going to tear a strip out of me.

249
00:15:11,260 --> 00:15:14,140
How wrong I was. 
The vast majority of my 

250
00:15:14,140 --> 00:15:16,660
readership like Oh my God, 
Henry, this is tragic. 

251
00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:22,540
What can we do to help? 
And more importantly, I heard I 

252
00:15:22,540 --> 00:15:25,510
got messages from. 
Both. 

253
00:15:25,630 --> 00:15:28,870
Well, all three of War Games 
Soldiers and Strategy magazine, 

254
00:15:28,950 --> 00:15:32,390
War Games Illustrative Magazine 
and Miniature War Games 

255
00:15:32,390 --> 00:15:35,230
magazines, All their editors got
in touch and said, look Henry, 

256
00:15:35,790 --> 00:15:39,550
we'll see what we can do to help
you out and maybe, you know, 

257
00:15:39,790 --> 00:15:43,670
give you a job or something. 
Well, two of those magazines 

258
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:46,630
said, look, what we could do is,
you know, we don't really want 

259
00:15:46,630 --> 00:15:49,550
Battle Games magazine, but we'd 
love to have you as a regular 

260
00:15:49,550 --> 00:15:54,790
columnist, but of course. 
The amount of income you get as 

261
00:15:54,790 --> 00:15:57,950
a regular columnist in a War 
games magazine won't pay the 

262
00:15:57,950 --> 00:16:02,910
mortgage rate. 
Whereas the people who owned 

263
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:06,510
miniature war games at the time 
said, look, we're quite 

264
00:16:06,510 --> 00:16:08,670
interested in buying battle 
games off you. 

265
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:13,590
And even more extraordinary, 
said we'd like to keep you on as

266
00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:18,710
the editor as well and doing the
layout because basically we like

267
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:21,680
what you're doing. 
But we want to support it. 

268
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,720
But obviously we'll buy the 
title from you. 

269
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,840
Don't get excited, folks. 
It really wasn't a lot of money.

270
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,800
We'll buy the title, buy the 
title from you, and keep you on 

271
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,960
as editor, designer. 
So basically it was like, Oh my 

272
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,720
God, huge sigh of relief. 
It was weird because I went from

273
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,840
being selfemployed to kind of 
being. 

274
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,520
I was still technically 
selfemployed, but effectively 

275
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,400
working for someone else for 
Atlantic publications. 

276
00:16:49,190 --> 00:16:57,310
But yeah, so that was 2011. 
Then what happened in 2013 was 

277
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:59,870
they said, oh, it's coming up 
for that. 

278
00:16:59,870 --> 00:17:03,990
I think it was like the 400th 
issue of Miniature War Games 

279
00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:06,470
magazine. 
We'd love for your design work. 

280
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:10,750
Would you revamp Miniature War 
Games to make it look more 

281
00:17:10,750 --> 00:17:12,670
modern? 
And I said, yeah, sure, I'd love

282
00:17:12,670 --> 00:17:15,550
to. 
So I did a design proposal. 

283
00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:19,060
And went to see the boss of the 
publishing house because they 

284
00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:20,940
did a number of other magazines 
as well. 

285
00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:22,980
Model railway magazines, that 
kind of stuff. 

286
00:17:22,980 --> 00:17:27,020
Garden Railways. 
And the guy said to me, we, we 

287
00:17:27,020 --> 00:17:30,660
love your redesign. 
But more than that, we actually 

288
00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:35,620
think we'd like you to become 
the editor of a combined Battle 

289
00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:38,580
Games with Miniature War Games 
magazine. 

290
00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:42,040
And I was like, seriously? 
And I said yes. 

291
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,440
So sadly they let go. 
The guy who had been the editor 

292
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,200
of Miniature War Games. 
Lovely guy called Andrew 

293
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,080
Hubbard, if he's listening. 
Hi, Andrew, Hope you're OK. 

294
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,800
But suddenly my workload went 
from doing all I'd been doing 

295
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,320
every other month to a magazine 
twice the length every month. 

296
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:12,010
So it was like, Oh my God. 
But it was OK, and people were, 

297
00:18:12,250 --> 00:18:17,050
you know, it was well received 
and sales went, you know, it was

298
00:18:17,050 --> 00:18:20,890
great. 
And then he got to 2015 and the 

299
00:18:20,890 --> 00:18:23,610
guy who owned Atlantic 
Publishers just suddenly decided

300
00:18:23,610 --> 00:18:25,890
literally overnight, oh, I think
I'm going to retire. 

301
00:18:26,370 --> 00:18:32,690
And so, without telling me, sold
the magazine to Warner's, a big 

302
00:18:33,850 --> 00:18:36,370
magazine publishers up in 
Lincolnshire. 

303
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,680
So literally, I was driving back
from a meeting one day and the 

304
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,720
phone rang. 
So I pulled over and, oh, 

305
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,040
Trevor, hi Trevor. 
Oh yeah, Henry. 

306
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,040
Need to let you know you don't 
work for me anymore. 

307
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,200
And I was like, what? 
What? 

308
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,480
Sorry. 
Have you fired me? 

309
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:54,800
Is it? 
Oh, no, no, no, no. 

310
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,360
You now work for this other guy 
at Warner's. 

311
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,200
Here's his phone number. 
Give him a call, he'll fill you 

312
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,320
in. 
Bye. 

313
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,320
It was literally kind of like 
that. 

314
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,440
And I was like. 
Thunderstruck. 

315
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,760
Anyway, the guy, it was a really
lovely guy rang Warners and we 

316
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,240
got to ever had a meeting and he
essentially said, look Henry, I 

317
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,880
come from a motorbike 
background. 

318
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,400
I have no clue what it is you 
do. 

319
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,920
I know nothing about this war 
gaming thing. 

320
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,480
So would you please just carry 
on doing what you're doing and 

321
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:30,600
here's a 10% pay rise right. 
So it was like that was really 

322
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,520
weird because he kind of just. 
Let me get on with it. 

323
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:40,440
And my liaison with Warner's, 
shall we say, it was minimal for

324
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,160
quite some time. 
It was like, OK, I'll do 

325
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,320
whatever. 
Anyway, that was great. 

326
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,320
So that was 2015. 
That was great until about the 

327
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:54,480
end of 2015 when suddenly he 
contacted me and said, oh, I've 

328
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,680
been given a new job, Henry 
doing this other thing. 

329
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,280
You're now and I won't name any 
names, but you're now. 

330
00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:07,250
Under the purview of this other 
person, and cut a Long story 

331
00:20:07,250 --> 00:20:13,050
short, Josh, me and this new 
person didn't get along terribly

332
00:20:13,050 --> 00:20:16,250
well because this new person was
only interested in numbers. 

333
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:20,530
They again, had no knowledge of 
the hobby, didn't actually care 

334
00:20:20,530 --> 00:20:27,050
about the readership, and just 
wanted to come in and impose 

335
00:20:27,050 --> 00:20:31,010
their ideas of what the magazine
should be like. 

336
00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:37,010
My the fact that I've been a war
gamer since 196869. 

337
00:20:37,010 --> 00:20:40,090
Something like that didn't 
matter a damn to them, right? 

338
00:20:40,170 --> 00:20:43,890
It was just, I think you should 
do this because this is what we 

339
00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:48,690
do with our other caravaning, 
camping, fly fishing, whatever 

340
00:20:48,690 --> 00:20:51,850
it is magazines. 
So we want you to do that in 

341
00:20:51,850 --> 00:20:54,210
this magazine to get the numbers
up. 

342
00:20:56,170 --> 00:21:01,030
I put up with that till 
something like September of 

343
00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:03,070
2016. 
At which point I said, you know 

344
00:21:03,070 --> 00:21:07,310
what, Enough. 
So I handed him my resignation 

345
00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:09,870
and walked away. 
And then, of course thought, Oh 

346
00:21:10,110 --> 00:21:14,950
my God, what have I done? 
So I'd gone from, you know, not 

347
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:18,590
a massive but a decent salary 
every month to zip. 

348
00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:22,870
So then it was like, oh God, 
what shall I do? 

349
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,400
Then life intervened. 
My mum died, bless her. 

350
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,520
And it was all, you know, anyone
who's been through a family 

351
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,440
bereavement and has had to deal 
with being an executor, that 

352
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,720
kind of stuff. 
I don't have to tell you what 

353
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,000
that could be like. 
And that kind of took over my 

354
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,320
life for a bit. 
So when I reemerged the other 

355
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,440
side of that kind of 20/17/2018,
I suppose it was, I was 

356
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,560
literally like, Oh my God, what 
am I going to do now? 

357
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,360
I was desperate for money by 
that point. 

358
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,890
In the meantime, I've been 
keeping an eye on the birth of 

359
00:21:52,890 --> 00:21:59,290
this thing called Patreon, and 
so I just decided to take a 

360
00:21:59,290 --> 00:22:01,090
punt. 
It's like literally, what could 

361
00:22:01,090 --> 00:22:03,330
I lose? 
I'll contact the people who used

362
00:22:03,330 --> 00:22:06,250
to subscribe to battle games and
say, hey, I'm going to try and 

363
00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:09,170
do the doing this. 
I've been doing a few magazine 

364
00:22:09,170 --> 00:22:14,570
articles in the meantime and to 
my astonishment, I went from 

365
00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:19,210
zero to like 100 and something 
patrons within a week. 

366
00:22:19,860 --> 00:22:23,780
It was amazing and very 
heartening. 

367
00:22:24,940 --> 00:22:28,220
So that's how I started Patreon 
doing, you know, my battle chat,

368
00:22:28,220 --> 00:22:30,980
podcasts and blog posts and that
kind of stuff. 

369
00:22:33,140 --> 00:22:38,540
And then also at the same time, 
gosh, back in two concurrent 

370
00:22:38,540 --> 00:22:41,900
with this cause my the the book 
that a lot of people know me 

371
00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:45,220
for, the War Gaming Compendium. 
I've been approached to do that 

372
00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:49,240
back in 2008 by Penn and Soul. 
So when I was editor of Battle 

373
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,760
Games, they, I think it was at 
the Salute show in London. 

374
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,240
That guy came out and tapped me 
on the shoulder and said, oh 

375
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,760
Henry, we're interested in 
getting into this war gaming 

376
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,480
thing and I think it could be 
good for us. 

377
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,640
Would you write a book for us? 
And I was like, sorry, that's 

378
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,240
not how things happen. 
I've spent my whole life wanting

379
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,300
to be a writer. 
I'm thinking I'm going to have 

380
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:18,180
to do multiple drafts of 
manuscript viron agents, sending

381
00:23:18,180 --> 00:23:21,060
it off to 50 different 
publishers, waiting two years. 

382
00:23:21,340 --> 00:23:23,620
And this guy just walked up to 
me and said, oh, Henry, would 

383
00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:25,940
you write a book for us? 
Mad. 

384
00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:31,980
So I, you know, I was young, I 
was gullible and I said pretty 

385
00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:38,120
much where do I sign? 
And then so I, you know the war 

386
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:39,320
gaming ended well. 
What? 

387
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,920
So I said what do you want me to
write about? 

388
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,440
And I said I would leave that up
to you. 

389
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,840
Big mistake, right. 
Saying to a guy like me it's up 

390
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,360
to you because of course I'm not
the, you know, I struggle to 

391
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,120
have limited goals let's put it 
that way. 

392
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,880
And so this thing just grew and 
grew and grew. 

393
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,630
I mean, it's ended up even in 
this edited version. 

394
00:24:05,630 --> 00:24:13,510
It's 520 pages, I think with 
Compendium and but again, to my 

395
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:17,070
astonishment that that was 
published in 2013. 

396
00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:20,110
So that was in the midst of me 
having just become editor of 

397
00:24:20,150 --> 00:24:23,150
Miniature War Games with Battle 
Games when they combined the 

398
00:24:23,150 --> 00:24:25,750
two, to my astonishment. 
Wow. 

399
00:24:26,350 --> 00:24:30,230
It it, you know, in in its tiny 
sphere. 

400
00:24:30,390 --> 00:24:33,760
It became a bestseller, you 
know, got that coveted little 

401
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,040
Amazon, little orange tag there.
And it was just like, I was 

402
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,560
blown away and the publishers 
were blown away and said right, 

403
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,120
well, we wanted to write another
one for us, please. 

404
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:50,720
And in fact, the complicated 
factor there was they were quite

405
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,200
clever. 
They got me to sign 3 contracts 

406
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,880
for three different books, the 
first of which was Wargaming 

407
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,240
Campaigns, plus a couple of 
others, which I'll come back to 

408
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,030
in a minute. 
But the war gaming Campaigns 

409
00:25:04,030 --> 00:25:07,150
thing is that I oh great, that 
seemed like a logical following 

410
00:25:07,150 --> 00:25:11,870
because I've done a chapter on 
campaigns in the compendium and 

411
00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:14,710
it seemed logical. 
Well, if I'm going to expand on 

412
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:18,350
something that was in that world
Campaigns, because Don 

413
00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:21,750
Featherstone, the one of the 
grandaddies of war gaming back 

414
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:25,110
in the 70s, had written a lovely
book on war gaming campaigns and

415
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:28,030
there hadn't really been 
anything of that style of 

416
00:25:28,030 --> 00:25:30,850
quality since then. 
So I thought, Oh yeah, there's 

417
00:25:30,850 --> 00:25:34,650
there's a gap there. 
Plus people knew me for doing my

418
00:25:34,650 --> 00:25:38,170
mad, highly intricate mapping 
and that kind of stuff. 

419
00:25:39,690 --> 00:25:42,330
So that seemed like a logical 
place to go. 

420
00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:46,570
Well, the first book would take 
me, what, 5 years to write? 

421
00:25:47,930 --> 00:25:50,250
War Gaming Campaigns took me 9 
years. 

422
00:25:52,370 --> 00:25:56,210
Well, it was, you know, so that 
was commissioned pretty much, 

423
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,640
yeah, 2013 and it didn't come 
out until last year, 2022 

424
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,160
because a number of things that 
happened in the meantime, which 

425
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:12,160
we can gloss over briefly, 
including prostate cancer and a 

426
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,320
mental breakdown, Those are the 
probably the two key things that

427
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,000
happened. 
And trust me, that kind of thing

428
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,800
takes the wind out of your sails
a bit. 

429
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:28,250
So work on it on this vast book 
kind of got put to one side 

430
00:26:28,250 --> 00:26:30,610
because, you know, particularly 
when you're undergoing 

431
00:26:30,610 --> 00:26:33,770
radiotherapy, your energy levels
just go through the floor. 

432
00:26:33,770 --> 00:26:37,330
It's just, you know, and I 
couldn't think straight and you 

433
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:40,930
know, the drugs they put you on,
that's what led partly to my 

434
00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:44,090
kind of mental breakdown. 
So I'm going to say this out 

435
00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:46,330
loud right now. 
I'm a big champion of mental 

436
00:26:46,330 --> 00:26:48,010
health. 
I hope I'm living proof. 

437
00:26:48,170 --> 00:26:50,610
You might know things over. 
I hope I'm living proof that you

438
00:26:50,610 --> 00:26:53,730
can have a mental breakdown. 
Doesn't mean you're not normal. 

439
00:26:54,130 --> 00:26:58,560
It just means that stuff got too
much for you, but you can come 

440
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,840
out the other side. 
Some people might dispute that I

441
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,240
come out the other side, but 
never mind. 

442
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:12,230
But but but anyway, so the book,
that ginormous book came out 

443
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:17,350
last year and that again I, I 
this is, it's at 526 pages. 

444
00:27:23,270 --> 00:27:18,910
I saw the video mate. 
So almost exactly the same as 

445
00:27:18,910 --> 00:27:21,470
the compendium had been. 
So that you can use them as 

446
00:27:21,470 --> 00:27:22,750
weights, you know if you're 
doing weight. 

447
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:26,350
I really enjoyed that. 
It was really good, Josh. 

448
00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:27,150
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

449
00:27:28,670 --> 00:27:30,470
Do you know some people took 
that seriously? 

450
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:35,030
Some people thought I was. 
Some people just don't have an 

451
00:27:35,030 --> 00:27:36,390
irony gland, you know what I 
mean? 

452
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:43,030
But anyway, so but that, again, 
is the edited down version. 

453
00:27:44,110 --> 00:27:49,030
So anyway, and again, I've been 
blown away at how that's been 

454
00:27:49,030 --> 00:27:50,870
received. 
I mean the most extraordinary 

455
00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:54,510
thing, Josh, for not just those 
books but also my subsequent 

456
00:27:54,510 --> 00:27:56,870
books. 
We'll talk about in a second the

457
00:27:56,870 --> 00:28:00,550
way that people ordered them. 
And when the book has arrived at

458
00:28:00,550 --> 00:28:03,390
their home, they've taken a 
picture of it and posted it on 

459
00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:07,390
social media. 
I mean, it's like, wow. 

460
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:15,110
I mean, I can't, I can't express
how moved I am by that and how 

461
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:17,830
grateful I am for that. 
That's just extraordinary. 

462
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:21,750
And also, let's be blunt as a 
now self-publishing author, wow,

463
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:26,630
what amazing publicity. 
Effectively, I've got to 

464
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:30,470
confess, free advertising. 
Every time someone does that, I 

465
00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:33,710
just come along, click, retweet,
thank you very much indeed. 

466
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:38,290
And effectively it's a form of 
free advertising for me, which 

467
00:28:38,290 --> 00:28:42,450
is priceless. 
I mean, because social media 

468
00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:45,490
advertising, as you may well 
know, Josh is going to be pretty

469
00:28:45,490 --> 00:28:50,410
hit and miss and can be 
expensive and is at the mercy of

470
00:28:50,410 --> 00:28:52,250
algorithms and all that kind of 
stuff. 

471
00:28:52,250 --> 00:28:54,690
So when that kind of thing 
happens, that that's just 

472
00:28:54,770 --> 00:28:58,410
phenomenal. 
Anyway, so that book came out 

473
00:28:58,410 --> 00:29:04,970
last year, very well received. 
It was kind of after that 

474
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:10,090
earlier this year, in fact, kind
of February, March. 

475
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:14,610
I had a bit of an epiphany 
because I got a call from the 

476
00:29:14,610 --> 00:29:19,730
publishers Pen and Sword, and 
they said to me, wow, Henry, we 

477
00:29:19,730 --> 00:29:23,890
thought you'd like to know that 
the first print run, 2000 

478
00:29:23,890 --> 00:29:26,330
copies, We've sold out, we've 
ordered another print run. 

479
00:29:26,810 --> 00:29:29,930
And I was like, wow, seriously 
amazing. 

480
00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:33,460
And they said, yeah, yeah, yeah,
so I, you know, I was doing a 

481
00:29:33,460 --> 00:29:36,820
quick calculation in my head 
because the cover price is £40 

482
00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:40,700
and the contract said 10% 
royalties, you know, and so, oh 

483
00:29:41,220 --> 00:29:46,660
wow, So anytime now, March, 
sometimes I'm due quite a nice 

484
00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:50,860
check then. 
And I said, so I imagine it's 

485
00:29:50,860 --> 00:29:54,020
going to be about X. 
And the guy on the other end of 

486
00:29:54,020 --> 00:29:57,780
the line paused and they said, 
oh, that's not the number I've 

487
00:29:57,780 --> 00:30:03,020
got in front of me here, Henry. 
I said, oh, what is the number 

488
00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:04,180
you've got in front of you 
there? 

489
00:30:04,180 --> 00:30:07,580
And he told me and it was about 
half what I was expecting. 

490
00:30:08,220 --> 00:30:11,100
So I said, can you explain that 
please? 

491
00:30:11,860 --> 00:30:15,020
And after a couple of minutes 
conversation he directed me to 

492
00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:20,100
something like clause 29 sub 
clause D near the end of the 

493
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:26,260
contract in small print where it
says that Oh yes, if they sell 

494
00:30:26,260 --> 00:30:31,980
copies on mass to retailers at 
greater than a 50% discount, my 

495
00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:37,060
royalty rate is halved. 
And guess what? 

496
00:30:37,060 --> 00:30:41,300
They sold a huge number of those
copies to people like Amazon and

497
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:46,460
Waterstones and others at 55% 
discount on the cover price 

498
00:30:47,980 --> 00:30:50,540
without telling me. 
This is the thing about 

499
00:30:50,540 --> 00:30:53,180
traditional publishers. 
Hey, I'm just an author. 

500
00:30:53,340 --> 00:30:56,140
Why should I be told anything 
useful, right? 

501
00:30:56,740 --> 00:30:59,900
I'm just, I should just be happy
and honored that they've 

502
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:03,420
published my book and that my 
name's on this book jacket and 

503
00:31:03,420 --> 00:31:07,220
that they condescend to give me 
a bit of money as a thank you 

504
00:31:08,790 --> 00:31:11,830
while I was incandescent. 
I've been involved with the 

505
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:14,070
self-publishing world, doing 
design work in the 

506
00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:16,790
self-publishing world and and 
consultancy work in the 

507
00:31:16,790 --> 00:31:19,030
self-publishing world for a 
very, very long time. 

508
00:31:19,230 --> 00:31:21,590
And of course I self published 
my own magazine, Battle Games, 

509
00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:26,430
for 5-6 years and I was like, do
you know what? 

510
00:31:27,270 --> 00:31:32,150
Never again. 
So I set myself, you know, in my

511
00:31:32,790 --> 00:31:38,430
anger can be a really good 
motivated for change basically. 

512
00:31:38,550 --> 00:31:41,190
Yeah, that's true. 
So, absolutely. 

513
00:31:41,270 --> 00:31:45,590
So it was like, right, I'm going
to show him something. 

514
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:53,150
So that's why I then I contacted
the guys, the team at War Game 

515
00:31:53,150 --> 00:31:55,710
Soldier Strategy magazine, for 
whom I'd written a series of 

516
00:31:55,710 --> 00:32:00,110
articles about tactics table 
talk, battle tactics and said 

517
00:32:00,110 --> 00:32:03,870
look, you know, would you be 
okay if I the rights reverted to

518
00:32:03,870 --> 00:32:08,110
me and I did something with them
and they were, yeah, absolutely 

519
00:32:08,110 --> 00:32:09,790
it's fine. 
We're never going to reprint 

520
00:32:09,790 --> 00:32:11,030
them. 
Do what you like with them. 

521
00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:14,830
Basically the only thing was 
that all the maps that have been

522
00:32:14,830 --> 00:32:18,350
with the original articles in 
the magazines have been done by 

523
00:32:18,350 --> 00:32:21,350
their in house illustrator and 
with their copyright. 

524
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:25,110
So to solve that problem, I 
redid all the maps and 

525
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:29,840
everything myself, redid all the
diagrams and everything, Reject 

526
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,920
the text, made sure, because 
they'd obviously edited down my 

527
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,600
text. 
So I was like, okay, actually, 

528
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,800
this stuff I wanted to put back 
in, correct. 

529
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,480
And brought out that Tabletop 
Battle Tactics book. 

530
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,560
Was it March? 
I think it was end of February, 

531
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,920
March this year. 
And let's just say that book has

532
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,490
already earned me more money in 
that period of this period of 

533
00:32:52,490 --> 00:32:56,570
time than working nine years on 
war gaming campaigns. 

534
00:32:56,890 --> 00:33:02,890
Wow. 
Thank you, mate. 

535
00:32:57,130 --> 00:32:57,530
Really? 
Yeah. 

536
00:32:58,450 --> 00:32:59,930
That's incredible. 
That's wonderful. 

537
00:32:59,930 --> 00:33:00,570
Really. 
Really. 

538
00:33:00,570 --> 00:33:02,010
Haven't here that for you, mate.
That's great. 

539
00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:07,090
I mean, it's just it was a what,
apart from anything is it proved

540
00:33:07,090 --> 00:33:10,090
to me that, yeah, there is a 
market for this stuff. 

541
00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:16,090
Yes, I do have an appeal outside
of whatever pen and sword total 

542
00:33:16,090 --> 00:33:18,890
lack of marketing does. 
I mean when you when you 

543
00:33:18,890 --> 00:33:21,170
traditionally published, if 
you're lucky they put the they 

544
00:33:21,170 --> 00:33:25,050
put your book on their website 
and they have a little printed 

545
00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:28,010
catalog they send out twice a 
year and probably in the first 

546
00:33:28,010 --> 00:33:31,370
year your book is published, you
might appear in one or two of 

547
00:33:31,370 --> 00:33:32,770
them. 
You know if you're lucky you 

548
00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:34,610
might get in the one that comes 
out just before Christmas. 

549
00:33:35,290 --> 00:33:38,530
That's their idea of marketing, 
right. 

550
00:33:38,770 --> 00:33:41,690
They've only in the last year or
two hired someone who 

551
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:46,290
specializes in social media. 
But that means if you're lucky, 

552
00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:49,610
if you do a tweet like I do on 
Twitter, if you're lucky, they 

553
00:33:49,610 --> 00:33:55,130
might retweet you once or twice.
So it's like, well, I'm doing 

554
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:58,730
all the work anyway, right? 
So why am I not being paid for 

555
00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:00,370
it? 
So that was the lesson that the 

556
00:34:00,370 --> 00:34:04,170
tabletop battle tactics thing 
taught me. 

557
00:34:04,610 --> 00:34:07,570
And so then it was like, wow, 
okay, that's done. 

558
00:34:07,570 --> 00:34:12,090
All right, what do I do now? 
And God bless social media. 

559
00:34:12,090 --> 00:34:17,360
A few months ago there were I 
posted, I'm really into war 

560
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,400
gaming campaigns. 
You know this Josh and I posted.

561
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,840
I got back in the day. 
I kept really meticulous 

562
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,800
notebooks about, you know, all 
the campaign moves, where each 

563
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,360
unit was on each day and what 
they were doing and what my 

564
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,880
thoughts were about what the 
enemy was up to and stuff. 

565
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,639
And I dug out some of these 
notes and just put a couple of 

566
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,920
pages of them up on Twitter. 
There was one guy in particular,

567
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,280
but a bunch of people said, oh 
wow, you should, you should do a

568
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,320
book of this stuff. 
And I was like, really, 

569
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,080
seriously, who? 
It's that's so niche. 

570
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,760
Who the hell would buy it? 
And they say, Oh well, I'd buy 

571
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,560
it. 
So it was like, well, again, a 

572
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,600
bit like with the battle game 
saying what the hell, give it a 

573
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,680
go. 
And so that's why the the Martin

574
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,920
Stark 1744 book came out, I 
suppose it's about a month ago 

575
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,450
now, isn't it? 
And again, it's like, wow, I 

576
00:35:13,450 --> 00:35:15,450
can't. 
It's selling. 

577
00:35:15,730 --> 00:35:18,810
And again, people were getting 
their copy, posting it on 

578
00:35:18,810 --> 00:35:21,010
Twitter, It's like, this is 
amazing. 

579
00:35:21,490 --> 00:35:27,010
So now yeah, I've got I I 
there's one contract I can't get

580
00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:29,450
out of from the traditional 
publishing route. 

581
00:35:29,490 --> 00:35:33,370
I've got to fulfill that. 
But I've managed to buy myself 

582
00:35:33,370 --> 00:35:35,490
plenty of time for it because 
I'm not going to rush into it. 

583
00:35:36,370 --> 00:35:39,570
But basically self-publishing is
where I'm at now. 

584
00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:43,270
So now it's literally OK, I've 
done that one, I've done that 

585
00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:44,990
one. 
Now what? 

586
00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:50,910
Because, you know, that's that's
the thing now. 

587
00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:54,030
It's like all my income I'm 
having to generate from outside 

588
00:35:54,030 --> 00:35:59,290
my my own head, you know, So 
there you go. 

589
00:35:59,450 --> 00:36:02,490
So that's kind of the story of 
all my books and stuff, Josh. 

590
00:36:03,010 --> 00:36:06,450
And as I warned you before the 
show, if you press a certain 

591
00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:12,010
button, I can happily talk for 
36 minutes. 

592
00:36:13,330 --> 00:36:14,970
I'll let you loose now, Henry. 
That's wonderful, man. 

593
00:36:15,010 --> 00:36:17,690
I told you I can let you off the
chain and you can. 

594
00:36:18,250 --> 00:36:21,210
I've always like you know, like 
I've enjoyed listening to you 

595
00:36:21,450 --> 00:36:23,050
and I. 
And the way I found out about 

596
00:36:23,050 --> 00:36:26,810
you was through. 
Through the View from the 

597
00:36:26,810 --> 00:36:29,850
Veranda series. 
Oh, with Neil Shark. 

598
00:36:29,850 --> 00:36:32,330
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, and that's how I first 

599
00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:34,850
found out about you and listened
to you and Neil talk and help. 

600
00:36:34,930 --> 00:36:36,650
They're actually my favorite 
podcasts. 

601
00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:39,410
I love the Maples and Miniatures
podcast and I'm really sad that 

602
00:36:39,410 --> 00:36:42,170
it ended. 
But yeah, you're, I think 12 or 

603
00:36:42,170 --> 00:36:46,410
13 episodes you did with Neil 
over a great span of time that 

604
00:36:46,410 --> 00:36:49,370
sort of followed your story, 
your personal journey, you know,

605
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:52,930
you know, going through like 
what you just talked about, but 

606
00:36:52,930 --> 00:36:55,440
in much more detail. 
About what you're going through 

607
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:56,960
and your struggles and that kind
of stuff. 

608
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,720
So it was really good to just 
hear you talk about that and 

609
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:02,440
then you know talk about many 
other different things about on 

610
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,440
different aspects about war 
gaming with Neil. 

611
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,040
And yeah, it was wonderful. 
It's great to I I actually 

612
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,440
listened to them again, I think 
a few years ago and just went 

613
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,600
back and listened to them and I 
just, I kept hearing the the 

614
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,160
word Scaven over and over and 
over again. 

615
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,240
You're the main reason why I 
started collecting Scaven. 

616
00:37:22,050 --> 00:37:23,730
Really. 
Yeah, it was my dear. 

617
00:37:23,730 --> 00:37:25,130
So thanks. 
Thanks. 

618
00:37:25,330 --> 00:37:28,530
Thanks to you and your and your 
yeah, I think sometimes you 

619
00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:32,730
talked about Warhammer or your 
past, you know, spells playing 

620
00:37:32,730 --> 00:37:34,610
Warhammer with your friend guy 
or something like that. 

621
00:37:34,610 --> 00:37:37,090
And yeah, that's true. 
Always referred to Scaven as one

622
00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:42,250
of the main races at the Clave. 
So do you still actually have a 

623
00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:45,650
lot of those armies or books or 
things like that that you had 

624
00:37:45,690 --> 00:37:48,800
back in the day? 
Well, you know, how far back do 

625
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:49,920
you want to? 
Go Wow. 

626
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,360
Beautiful 5th edition. 
Nice. 

627
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,600
Yeah, that's what I started with
because what I I There was a 

628
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,880
box. 
It was a box set, wasn't it? 

629
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,120
Which I think had was it having 
it scaven an empire or 

630
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,800
something? 
Those Protonians. 

631
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,920
That particular set had the 
Protonians. 

632
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:16,700
The the It's a lizard. 
Oh the lizard man, That's right.

633
00:38:17,060 --> 00:38:23,780
Yeah I I kind of forgot but at 
some point I mean this God, I 

634
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:27,620
look back at this. 
So this would have been what 

635
00:38:27,620 --> 00:38:32,460
1996 right. 
It says that the copyright 1996 

636
00:38:34,340 --> 00:38:38,100
because I'd I'd been living up 
in South and or Sea in Essex and

637
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:41,020
I moved down to Brighton, 
Brighton and Hove in. 

638
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:48,830
It was about 1991 and I had been
doing some kind of the 

639
00:38:48,830 --> 00:38:56,110
historical war gaming stuff with
my friend Guy and it was kind of

640
00:38:56,110 --> 00:39:00,550
the early 90s. 
I discovered Games Workshop in 

641
00:39:00,550 --> 00:39:03,710
the Lanes area of Brighton. 
It's kind of the old, what used 

642
00:39:03,710 --> 00:39:06,710
to be an old fishing village in 
the center of Brighton, Little 

643
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:08,270
Twitten Lanes and that kind of 
stuff. 

644
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,360
And there was a game, what was 
then called, of course, Games 

645
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,320
Workshop, not Warhammer, called 
Games Workshop. 

646
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:17,600
And they sold all kinds of 
things as well, not just 

647
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,640
Warhammer and that sort of 
thing. 

648
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,200
They sold, you know, chess sets 
and all sort backgammon and 

649
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,720
other board games. 
Some Dungeons and Dragons I seem

650
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,280
to remember. 
It was all before, kind of. 

651
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,080
The branding men really kind of 
took hold and said enough. 

652
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,360
This is going to be the pure 
temple of Games Workshop only, 

653
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,240
right? 
But I was intrigued by this box 

654
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:48,480
set that had, you know, two 
small armies in it. 

655
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,920
And the measuring sticks, those 
plastic measuring sticks and 

656
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,200
some templates. 
And the rule book. 

657
00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:58,880
And if I recall, the battle book
as well. 

658
00:40:00,740 --> 00:40:07,420
And I was like, wow, that looks 
really interesting and colorful 

659
00:40:08,180 --> 00:40:11,140
and apart from anything, as it 
also came with the, you might 

660
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:15,700
have it in your collection 
there, just the the the, the 

661
00:40:15,860 --> 00:40:18,700
painting guide, the first little
painting guide, like a little 

662
00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:22,260
magaziney thing. 
And I thought, wow, that's 

663
00:40:22,260 --> 00:40:23,780
really good. 
Of course the whole Citadel 

664
00:40:23,780 --> 00:40:28,260
paint range as it then was, and 
citadel miniatures on the walls,

665
00:40:28,260 --> 00:40:29,740
you know, in blisters and what 
have you. 

666
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,840
And I thought, well, I've done 
some Dungeons and Dragons, but 

667
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,520
Theatre of the Mind D&D way back
when I was at university, so in 

668
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:45,400
the early 80s. 
But this kind of intrigued me. 

669
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:51,200
I think I had bought a few or 
there had been a game shop when 

670
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,760
I was at university and they had
some. 

671
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,520
I think it was Ral Partha 
miniatures back then, and I 

672
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,560
bought a handful, but I've never
really done fantasy miniature 

673
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,160
gaming. 
There were a couple of rule sets

674
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:10,680
out there for it, but under the 
guise probably of war gaming in 

675
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,000
Middle Earth, something of that.
Nature. 

676
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,080
But when I saw this, this 
Warhammer stuff, I was like kind

677
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,960
of blown away. 
And it's like, wow, amazing. 

678
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,990
And I look back now, all these 
people I now know extremely 

679
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:25,950
well. 
The Peri twins and Rick Priestly

680
00:41:25,950 --> 00:41:28,590
and what have you with them all 
in the photographs in these 

681
00:41:28,590 --> 00:41:30,270
books, looking so young. 
Oh. 

682
00:41:30,270 --> 00:41:34,310
My God, it's a bit bit of a 
while ago now, wasn't it? 

683
00:41:34,430 --> 00:41:37,270
Oh my God. 
Dave Andrews, Alessio Cavatory, 

684
00:41:37,310 --> 00:41:40,670
people like that. 
It's like, wow, they had hair, 

685
00:41:40,830 --> 00:41:43,430
you know? 
Right. 

686
00:41:44,750 --> 00:41:49,230
But also, the other thing that 
was really lovely was all the 

687
00:41:49,230 --> 00:41:54,260
terrain making advice and that 
kind of stuff, and just the fact

688
00:41:54,260 --> 00:42:00,460
that they'd really got their 
acts together in terms of 

689
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:02,860
effectively creating a game in a
box. 

690
00:42:02,860 --> 00:42:06,740
So they made no assumptions 
about how much you might know 

691
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:10,580
before you came to the hobby. 
They didn't make any 

692
00:42:10,580 --> 00:42:12,620
assumptions. 
You know, one of the problems 

693
00:42:12,620 --> 00:42:16,100
with historical war gaming 
historically, pardon the pun, 

694
00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:19,620
has been, yeah, well, you know, 
if you're interested in World 

695
00:42:19,620 --> 00:42:22,140
War 2 history, you can play this
game. 

696
00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:24,340
If you're interested in 18th 
century history, you can play 

697
00:42:24,340 --> 00:42:26,940
this game. 
But that's making a big 

698
00:42:26,940 --> 00:42:29,980
assumption that people are 
sitting at home reading, you 

699
00:42:29,980 --> 00:42:33,380
know, the memoirs of Napoleon or
something like that, you know, 

700
00:42:33,580 --> 00:42:38,100
which is like, no, that's not 
what most people do. 

701
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:40,380
You. 
Yes, there is a market of people

702
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:44,920
who do do that. 
And in fact this weekend just 

703
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,880
gone, you will have seen on 
Twitter loads of posts about a 

704
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,640
big show that happened up in, I 
think it's Northamptonshire 

705
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,640
called the We Have Ways podcast 
show. 

706
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,240
There's a couple of famous guys,
James Holland who is a 

707
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:03,810
historian, very well known 
popular military historian and 

708
00:43:03,810 --> 00:43:07,330
Al Murray who formerly was a 
comedian actually but is 

709
00:43:07,330 --> 00:43:10,410
actually has a history degree as
a highly knowledgeable guy. 

710
00:43:10,650 --> 00:43:13,530
And between the two of them they
run this amazing podcast called 

711
00:43:13,730 --> 00:43:18,130
the We have ways as in we have 
ways of making you talk podcast,

712
00:43:18,450 --> 00:43:21,570
you know? 
And they together with obviously

713
00:43:21,970 --> 00:43:26,170
shed load of help put together 
this huge festival that took 

714
00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:33,340
place over this previous weekend
where a bunch of guys from 2 Fat

715
00:43:33,340 --> 00:43:36,660
Lardies, 2 Fat Lardies being a 
very popular brand of historical

716
00:43:36,660 --> 00:43:41,180
war game went along and put on 
some amazing games for public 

717
00:43:41,180 --> 00:43:46,420
participation at this show. 
And it looks totally sense of 

718
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:48,740
purposes like they had an 
amazing experience. 

719
00:43:49,540 --> 00:43:53,140
But of course what they were 
able to count on with that is 

720
00:43:53,140 --> 00:43:56,300
that people who went to that 
show are history nuts. 

721
00:43:56,690 --> 00:43:59,370
In particular their World War 2 
history nuts, right? 

722
00:43:59,650 --> 00:44:02,770
Because let's say the tickets 
were cheap, right? 

723
00:44:03,290 --> 00:44:07,410
And so they would pay probably 
upwards of £100 to spend the 

724
00:44:07,410 --> 00:44:10,690
weekend at this place listening 
to lectures about various 

725
00:44:10,690 --> 00:44:15,090
aspects of World War 2. 
And people were driving around 

726
00:44:15,090 --> 00:44:18,290
in tanks and armored personnel 
carriers and they had, they had 

727
00:44:18,290 --> 00:44:22,820
reenactors and stuff. 
It looks incredible and in this 

728
00:44:22,820 --> 00:44:26,140
big tent that apparently was 
like 100 degrees inside 

729
00:44:26,980 --> 00:44:30,860
basically the the two fat 
largest guys put on a series of 

730
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:33,980
games over the two or three days
of the game was. 

731
00:44:35,380 --> 00:44:38,620
But as I say, that's great, 
that's fantastic. 

732
00:44:38,620 --> 00:44:40,940
But of course the assumption 
there is the people at that show

733
00:44:40,940 --> 00:44:43,460
are already interested in 
military history of one kind or 

734
00:44:43,460 --> 00:44:48,380
another, and so would look at a 
a World War 2 game being played 

735
00:44:48,380 --> 00:44:52,620
and go, oh, that's interesting. 
That looks like Normandy 1944. 

736
00:44:52,740 --> 00:44:56,020
I wonder what that's all about. 
That immediately draws someone 

737
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:59,580
in. 
Of course, the big question is 

738
00:44:59,580 --> 00:45:02,980
historical war gaming. 
How do you reach out to people 

739
00:45:03,980 --> 00:45:07,900
who aren't history nuts, who, 
you know, might watch the 

740
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:11,700
occasional war movie on, you 
know, Netflix or something, but 

741
00:45:11,940 --> 00:45:14,500
aren't necessarily the kind of 
people who would spend their 

742
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:18,660
pocket money, as it as it were, 
on books about the battle of 

743
00:45:18,660 --> 00:45:20,420
Waterloo? 
You know, I I was one of the 

744
00:45:20,420 --> 00:45:22,860
kids who did. 
I did save up my pocket money 

745
00:45:22,860 --> 00:45:27,100
because I I had got the bug 
because of my father. 

746
00:45:27,540 --> 00:45:31,140
But of course, I'm also part of 
that generation whose fathers 

747
00:45:31,660 --> 00:45:33,960
fought in the Second World War, 
right. 

748
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,400
And or or or, you know, we're 
involved in it in one way or 

749
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,280
another. 
So I got my bug, if you like, 

750
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,760
for history from my dad. 
Now, of course, that's not so 

751
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,040
much the case. 
And there's a lot. 

752
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,000
Yes, of course, there are 
veterans of Iraq and Iran and 

753
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,440
what have you, but the numbers 
involved are so much smaller. 

754
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,560
That's the first thing, you 
know, whereas World War 2, there

755
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,160
was conscription, right? 
Millions of people went to 

756
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,190
fight. 
Nowadays it's a much, much 

757
00:46:03,190 --> 00:46:07,390
smaller and you know, as a 
matter of debate how small, too 

758
00:46:07,390 --> 00:46:10,310
small, tiny. 
You know, it's a tight, 

759
00:46:10,310 --> 00:46:12,110
relatively tiny number of 
people. 

760
00:46:12,670 --> 00:46:16,310
And of course the more recent 
wars that have been for are 

761
00:46:16,310 --> 00:46:19,870
more, shall we say, problematic 
in terms of the public's 

762
00:46:19,870 --> 00:46:23,230
attitude towards them. 
And of course, as as I know, I'm

763
00:46:23,230 --> 00:46:25,830
a supporter of a charity called 
Combat Stress, lots of guys 

764
00:46:25,830 --> 00:46:30,230
coming back with post traumatic 
stress disorder and more 

765
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:33,510
complex. 
So this is where going back to 

766
00:46:33,510 --> 00:46:39,910
Games Workshop, this was where 
the genius was of a shop on 

767
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:43,990
every High Street, right? 
I can't, you know, they're now 

768
00:46:44,070 --> 00:46:45,470
is it? 
They're the most profitable 

769
00:46:45,470 --> 00:46:47,030
company in the world or 
something. 

770
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:52,790
It's quite extraordinary how 
they've managed that basically 

771
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:59,810
with shops selling toy soldiers.
That is absolutely phenomenal. 

772
00:46:59,810 --> 00:47:02,850
And This is why hats off to 
them. 

773
00:47:03,330 --> 00:47:08,050
You know, I I, I've like most 
people who've been involved 

774
00:47:08,050 --> 00:47:11,770
with, you know, fantasy gaming. 
At some point we've probably 

775
00:47:11,770 --> 00:47:15,250
gone, oh God, I think the prices
are a bit steep, aren't they? 

776
00:47:15,570 --> 00:47:19,010
And they're a bit exclusive. 
And now it's all you know. 

777
00:47:19,010 --> 00:47:22,010
This is where I have to admit 
I've kind of lost interest. 

778
00:47:22,010 --> 00:47:25,090
Since it's gone all age of Sigma
and that kind of stuff. 

779
00:47:25,890 --> 00:47:29,610
My interest kind of started to 
wane probably at what would I 

780
00:47:29,690 --> 00:47:33,650
know, was it 6th or 7th edition?
I can't remember roundabout 

781
00:47:33,650 --> 00:47:39,330
whatever edition that is. 6th 
edition I think I bought because

782
00:47:39,330 --> 00:47:41,610
the 7th edition book was hard 
back, wasn't it? 

783
00:47:41,610 --> 00:47:47,690
And I think I bought that and 
it, but I think it was after 6th

784
00:47:47,730 --> 00:47:51,930
edition I definitely started to 
feel like it's not the kind of 

785
00:47:51,930 --> 00:47:53,850
fantasy gaming I want to play 
anymore. 

786
00:47:56,060 --> 00:48:00,980
But up to that point certainly I
could see, you know, no brainer 

787
00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:06,260
as a way a gateway drug if you 
like, of getting people into the

788
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:12,740
hobby of playing with toy 
soldiers and the the way that 

789
00:48:12,740 --> 00:48:15,700
they look after, looked after 
the customers in the shop. 

790
00:48:16,580 --> 00:48:19,940
Hey course, come in, we've got, 
we've got a club, not play a 

791
00:48:19,940 --> 00:48:22,260
game. 
Come in and learn how to paint 

792
00:48:22,260 --> 00:48:24,780
your figures just coming off the
street. 

793
00:48:24,820 --> 00:48:28,020
Look mate, look, we've got some 
of our new paints there, the 

794
00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:30,300
base colors or whatever they 
were back in the day. 

795
00:48:30,940 --> 00:48:32,980
There you go. 
Paints, brushes, couple of 

796
00:48:33,100 --> 00:48:36,380
miniatures we've put together, 
just have a play paint with 

797
00:48:36,380 --> 00:48:39,500
them. 
Wow, phenomenal. 

798
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:44,020
And this is one of the reasons 
why, of course, comparatively 

799
00:48:44,020 --> 00:48:46,540
speaking, historical war gaming 
has suffered. 

800
00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:50,940
Because back in the day, if you 
wanted historical war games 

801
00:48:50,940 --> 00:48:55,880
miniatures, it would have been a
probably a general hobby shop or

802
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,320
model shop where they would have
probably had model railways and 

803
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:05,570
model sailing boats and kits, 
you know, plastic kits, maybe 

804
00:49:05,570 --> 00:49:08,290
even some art stuff. 
And Oh yes, there's a little 

805
00:49:08,290 --> 00:49:13,130
corner devoted to wargaming, and
probably that shop would have 

806
00:49:13,130 --> 00:49:16,210
been run by a grumpy old 
bastard. 

807
00:49:16,210 --> 00:49:19,010
In the Cardigans, I know those 
types. 

808
00:49:19,010 --> 00:49:23,610
I met them, yeah, Grumpy old 
bastard in the cardigan who 

809
00:49:23,610 --> 00:49:27,530
looked at you down his nose as 
if you were some sort of piece 

810
00:49:27,530 --> 00:49:29,890
of dirt on his shoe. 
What do you want? 

811
00:49:30,350 --> 00:49:32,470
Right. 
Hardly encouraging. 

812
00:49:33,150 --> 00:49:36,030
And of course makes you beg the 
question of, well, why did they 

813
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:39,110
bother to stock the stuff if 
they didn't want to encourage 

814
00:49:39,110 --> 00:49:43,230
people in to come and buy it? 
But their their their specialty 

815
00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:46,590
was probably model railways and 
they were pretty antisocial and 

816
00:49:46,590 --> 00:49:49,150
introverted. 
You know, I I've learned enough 

817
00:49:49,150 --> 00:49:51,910
psychology now to know they 
probably had real problems. 

818
00:49:51,910 --> 00:49:55,550
You know, that they didn't know 
how to address, you know, social

819
00:49:55,550 --> 00:49:59,090
problems. 
But anyway, that compare that 

820
00:49:59,090 --> 00:50:02,810
with a Games Workshop where, oh 
hi, you know, let me know if you

821
00:50:02,810 --> 00:50:05,690
need anything. 
Certainly in the in the better 

822
00:50:05,690 --> 00:50:08,410
branches where they didn't just 
hound you to buy something, you 

823
00:50:08,410 --> 00:50:09,570
know, from the moment you got in
the door. 

824
00:50:09,810 --> 00:50:13,610
But the better branches with 
the, you know, they acknowledge 

825
00:50:13,610 --> 00:50:15,250
you come in the door. 
Hi there. 

826
00:50:15,450 --> 00:50:16,850
Let me know if there's anything 
you need. 

827
00:50:17,090 --> 00:50:18,730
Right. 
Fantastic. 

828
00:50:18,730 --> 00:50:22,290
So they've acknowledged your 
existence, you know. 

829
00:50:22,450 --> 00:50:26,140
And so if you're standing there 
and you're, oh, oh, right. 

830
00:50:26,140 --> 00:50:28,340
Is there a particular paint 
color you're looking for? 

831
00:50:28,340 --> 00:50:31,660
Can I help you? 
Or, oh, what army do you tend to

832
00:50:31,660 --> 00:50:34,460
collect? 
You know, and I've got, you 

833
00:50:34,460 --> 00:50:38,180
know, I've had some laughs over 
the years with that, where I've 

834
00:50:38,180 --> 00:50:40,380
been in the Games Workshop. 
So someone's come up to my show.

835
00:50:40,380 --> 00:50:41,460
Oh, right. 
So. 

836
00:50:41,580 --> 00:50:45,500
So what armies do you collect 
most, oh, 18th century Prussians

837
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:46,660
and Austrians. 
How about you? 

838
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:52,010
Right. 
And now that's just been me 

839
00:50:52,010 --> 00:50:54,810
being nasty, really. 
But no, yeah, I've had many 

840
00:50:54,810 --> 00:50:58,450
conversations with because I the
other thing is, obviously you 

841
00:50:58,450 --> 00:51:02,210
look at my age and I would be 
twice, three times the age of 

842
00:51:02,210 --> 00:51:05,330
the average shop assistant in a 
Games Workshop store. 

843
00:51:05,330 --> 00:51:07,570
So they're like, what the Hell's
he doing here? 

844
00:51:08,610 --> 00:51:12,250
But I actually know an awful lot
of my compactions of my age 

845
00:51:12,250 --> 00:51:15,810
group who will want wander into 
Warhammer because they want a 

846
00:51:15,810 --> 00:51:19,210
couple of pots of paint or they 
just want to see what painting 

847
00:51:19,210 --> 00:51:22,250
techniques people are using or 
just look at the pretty pictures

848
00:51:22,250 --> 00:51:25,610
in the books, you know, or you 
know the astonishing painting 

849
00:51:25,610 --> 00:51:30,810
skills on display. 
And I think that's that's 

850
00:51:30,810 --> 00:51:33,050
important. 
What I've I'm very much a 

851
00:51:33,050 --> 00:51:35,570
generalist. 
You know, I play all kinds of 

852
00:51:35,570 --> 00:51:40,320
stuff and I think that one of 
the biggest problems can be if 

853
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,040
people silo themselves and say 
I'm just a fantasy game or I'm 

854
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,360
just historicals and and the 
fancy games are the work of the 

855
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:54,560
devil kind of thing, which is 
just like really over it, you 

856
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,240
know, It's like why we can all 
learn so much from each other. 

857
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:05,480
And certainly when I think of 
now, some of the accounts I 

858
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,900
follow on social media for 
people doing painting, for 

859
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:15,380
example, I follow easily as many
people who painting fantasy and 

860
00:52:15,380 --> 00:52:18,780
sci-fi stuff as I do. 
People are painting historical 

861
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:20,700
stuff and there's some great 
accounts. 

862
00:52:20,700 --> 00:52:25,460
People like Troy, Sonic 
sledgehammers, he goes under 

863
00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:30,620
who's got now I know 1015 
thousand followers on YouTube is

864
00:52:30,620 --> 00:52:36,890
mad and he paints both 
historical and fantasy and 

865
00:52:36,890 --> 00:52:41,890
sci-fi stuff, which is fantastic
because it just shows that mate 

866
00:52:41,890 --> 00:52:44,570
we're all just painting toy 
soldiers really. 

867
00:52:44,570 --> 00:52:49,010
And so these techniques, yeah, I
don't know many historical war 

868
00:52:49,010 --> 00:52:51,850
games who go to the length of 
doing non metallic metals for 

869
00:52:51,850 --> 00:52:54,050
example. 
I think that is something that's

870
00:52:54,050 --> 00:52:57,370
very much in the kind of fancy 
and sci-fi genre. 

871
00:52:58,330 --> 00:53:05,670
But yeah, why not basing stuff, 
terrain making, it's a fantasy 

872
00:53:05,670 --> 00:53:07,870
tree is pretty much like a 
historical tree. 

873
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:11,670
You know, a fantasy farmhouse 
is, you know, when I look at the

874
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:15,790
empire stuff, you know that 
Games Workshop promoted over the

875
00:53:15,790 --> 00:53:19,110
years or the Britonian stuff, 
yeah, that looks pretty much 

876
00:53:19,110 --> 00:53:22,190
like medieval slash renaissance 
Europe, right? 

877
00:53:24,670 --> 00:53:29,110
So you know, there's this cross 
fertilization that's possible. 

878
00:53:30,730 --> 00:53:33,170
But anyway, going back to your 
original question, that was the 

879
00:53:33,170 --> 00:53:37,330
first warhammer that I bought 
when things were painted. 

880
00:53:37,370 --> 00:53:39,290
Very bright colors. 
Right. 

881
00:53:39,490 --> 00:53:42,290
Yeah, yeah. 
And there was another game I've 

882
00:53:42,290 --> 00:53:45,250
got to mention. 
Advanced hero. 

883
00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:47,650
Quest, I was just about to ask 
you there because I thought that

884
00:53:47,650 --> 00:53:50,050
was your first, the very first 
product you ever bought from the

885
00:53:50,050 --> 00:53:50,970
Games Workshop. 
That was. 

886
00:53:51,250 --> 00:53:52,850
You probably still have the box 
set there. 

887
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,160
Well, I don't have the box. 
Well, the box is somewhere else,

888
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,920
but the figures get regular 
outings. 

889
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,680
I'm going to dig out some stuff.
I don't know if you want to take

890
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,720
any screenshot. 
What have I got here? 

891
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:08,000
What have I got here? 
Hang on a minute. 

892
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,880
Hang on a minute. 
I know from your recent podcast 

893
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,920
you've been talking about on 
battle chat you're using for D&D

894
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,320
and your D&D sessions. 
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

895
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,000
Which is great to hear. 
Now let's have a look you might 

896
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,760
recognize. 
Where's the camera? 

897
00:54:24,090 --> 00:54:26,410
Aha. 
Yes, I do recognize that one. 

898
00:54:26,410 --> 00:54:30,530
Yeah, he's the Is it Heinrich? 
Yeah, that was Heinrich. 

899
00:54:30,690 --> 00:54:33,530
Absolutely. 
And of course. 

900
00:54:34,130 --> 00:54:37,210
Aha, there he is. 
The the mighty, Dwarf, the 

901
00:54:37,210 --> 00:54:38,770
mighty. 
That's right. 

902
00:54:38,890 --> 00:54:42,290
And and of course, if you've got
a dwarf, you've got to have. 

903
00:54:42,290 --> 00:54:44,890
Have the ELF. 
That's right, have the elf as 

904
00:54:44,890 --> 00:54:50,410
well. 
And then we've got the wizard. 

905
00:54:50,690 --> 00:54:52,170
Great Magnus. 
That's him. 

906
00:54:52,410 --> 00:54:53,130
Beautiful. 
That's him. 

907
00:54:53,170 --> 00:54:55,970
So they were the first one. 
And then of course that set came

908
00:54:55,970 --> 00:55:00,330
with all these wonderful kind of
men at arms and things with 

909
00:55:00,330 --> 00:55:03,250
their howbirds and bills and 
what have you. 

910
00:55:03,810 --> 00:55:08,130
What a great and swordsmen as 
well, what a great set that was.

911
00:55:08,290 --> 00:55:13,970
And of course that segwayed 
nicely into Britonians back in 

912
00:55:13,970 --> 00:55:16,400
the day. 
And who else have I got in 

913
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:17,960
there? 
And now they get mixed and 

914
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,200
matched. 
So now I've got. 

915
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,160
I can't remember who I got in 
from someone off eBay, but these

916
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:28,960
wonderful D&D figures. 
He's a lovely Dwarf Cleric kind.

917
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:34,200
Of yeah, but of course what 
you're looking for, since we're 

918
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,680
talking Scaven. 
Yes, you're looking for them. 

919
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,600
That's right. 
The giant Stave. 

920
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,040
And they're absolutely huge, 
those plastic models, aren't 

921
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,200
they? 
They're huge with their kind of 

922
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:53,280
saw toothed swords and things. 
They were huge, and I got so 

923
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,760
many of them that I also mounted
some onto square bases. 

924
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:59,990
Nice, because that was the other
thing. 

925
00:55:59,990 --> 00:56:01,790
Hero Quest. 
Advanced Hero Quest. 

926
00:56:02,430 --> 00:56:05,310
A squares based game but with 
round bases. 

927
00:56:05,310 --> 00:56:07,430
What's that all about, right? 
I don't know. 

928
00:56:07,550 --> 00:56:10,390
And funnily enough, I actually 
started basing my stuff with 

929
00:56:10,390 --> 00:56:12,110
square bases. 
You know, you're talking 

930
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:13,190
fantasy. 
But then I thought. 

931
00:56:13,710 --> 00:56:16,590
That that looks so much cooler 
on round bases but the squares 

932
00:56:16,590 --> 00:56:19,870
don't allow you to have like 
they're 20 mil squares but 

933
00:56:19,870 --> 00:56:22,190
they're 25 mil round bases which
is a real shame. 

934
00:56:22,430 --> 00:56:26,750
Yeah yeah yeah. 
So I I I use I've got both here 

935
00:56:27,550 --> 00:56:30,790
So I actually would use them if 
I'm playing on sort of open 

936
00:56:30,790 --> 00:56:36,390
ground non non gridded thing. 
But of course then I don't know 

937
00:56:36,390 --> 00:56:39,510
who who have I got in here. 
Well, it might be better off 

938
00:56:39,510 --> 00:56:42,990
just holding up a a thing with 
a. 

939
00:56:43,790 --> 00:56:46,390
It's got quite a selection. 
Of Yeah, there, isn't it? 

940
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:47,030
Yeah. 
Nice, man. 

941
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:51,270
A lot of scabing in there. 
Whole bunch of scabing plague 

942
00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:53,030
monks. 
Gotta love them. 

943
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:58,150
And of course, one of my 
favorite the warp fire thrower. 

944
00:56:58,750 --> 00:57:00,510
Yes. 
And J sales. 

945
00:57:00,670 --> 00:57:06,080
What I always loved about the 
scabing, of course, is they had 

946
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,040
some terrific stuff when it 
worked. 

947
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,680
Yeah, and when it didn't work, 
it had this spectacular kind of 

948
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:14,640
ending. 
Didn't it? 

949
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,960
Oh my God, yeah, there's there's
so many things. 

950
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,640
Basically if it goes, if it 
works, fine it, you know, it's 

951
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,560
deadly. 
But most of the time, the 

952
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,400
likelihood is going to blow the 
shit out of you and. 

953
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,120
It was really fine. 
I think there's 11 incident 

954
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,080
where there's a wart fire 
thrower and you probably know 

955
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,530
the wart fire broke in, right? 
And I think I've misfired and 

956
00:57:37,530 --> 00:57:40,250
exploded. 
And then I thought, OK, well, 

957
00:57:40,250 --> 00:57:42,610
they got heavy armor, so that 
should be OK, but oh, but it's 

958
00:57:42,610 --> 00:57:45,570
minus -1 saving throat. 
Oh well, they're dead anyway. 

959
00:57:45,570 --> 00:57:48,330
So why was it? 
Why why do they even write that 

960
00:57:48,330 --> 00:57:49,530
thing in there? 
You know, they should just say 

961
00:57:49,530 --> 00:57:51,450
that everyone everyone's dead. 
That's it. 

962
00:57:51,450 --> 00:57:52,610
Would move the model find up 
there. 

963
00:57:52,730 --> 00:57:56,330
I I had a I had a brilliant 
incident with the doom wheel. 

964
00:57:57,290 --> 00:58:02,210
Yeah, fabulous thing with the 
prongs at the front and side. 

965
00:58:02,330 --> 00:58:04,730
Yeah, sending out bolts of 
lightning. 

966
00:58:05,050 --> 00:58:09,730
And when it worked, wow, just 
like, Oh my God, it could fry an

967
00:58:09,730 --> 00:58:14,170
entire regiment of, you know, 
Empire Halvedirs. 

968
00:58:15,210 --> 00:58:24,730
But I made a mistake because one
game I decided to support my 

969
00:58:25,010 --> 00:58:30,420
doom wheel as it advanced with a
unit of storm vermin, who of 

970
00:58:30,420 --> 00:58:34,140
course are wearing heavy armor. 
So when it came to the lightning

971
00:58:34,140 --> 00:58:38,100
will strike the nearest target 
with the heaviest armor who did 

972
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:44,940
it hit? 
So I had this amazing moment 

973
00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:48,660
where my chum guy who was 
playing Dark Elves at the time. 

974
00:58:48,660 --> 00:58:52,100
Because I hate the dark Elves. 
Oh my God, they wrote the Dark 

975
00:58:52,100 --> 00:58:55,060
Elves to be almost 
indestructible, I swear. 

976
00:58:55,060 --> 00:58:58,580
But anyway, I was really 
confidently advancing. 

977
00:58:58,580 --> 00:59:02,650
It's like, right, lightning 
bolts from my doom wheel and guy

978
00:59:02,650 --> 00:59:06,490
just sat there very calmly as I 
was kind of doing the measuring 

979
00:59:06,490 --> 00:59:09,410
and stuff to his unit of 
Corsairs or whatever they were. 

980
00:59:09,970 --> 00:59:14,450
And he very comes it. 
Henry, that's not the closest 

981
00:59:14,650 --> 00:59:17,330
armored unit. 
And I was like what what what He

982
00:59:17,330 --> 00:59:21,570
said look to your left and my 
unit of Storm Burming just kind 

983
00:59:21,570 --> 00:59:23,690
of nine inches away from the 
doom wheel. 

984
00:59:23,890 --> 00:59:28,840
So of course they just got bride
fried fur and flesh everywhere. 

985
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,280
I'm holding up one of my 
favorite miniatures, actually. 

986
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,240
Here we go. 
Ah yes, the Death Master, Death 

987
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,040
Master snitch. 
Or how it was pronouncable, 

988
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:39,920
yeah. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

989
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,960
Unpronouncable. 
What a fabulous model. 

990
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,760
Absolutely. 
It took me ages to work out that

991
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,600
that was his tail holding 
another sword. 

992
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,640
You know, sometimes you get the 
bear casting and you're not 

993
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,920
quite sure what it is you're 
looking at, particularly since 

994
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,680
back then we had to black 
undercoat everything, right? 

995
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,800
And I'm just like wow, Oh my 
God. 

996
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:04,000
And they're all Venom Swords as 
well, of course. 

997
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,280
Poisonous Venom Swords. 
What a fantastic character. 

998
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,680
Here is Death Master snicks. 
I've got some others, some of my

999
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,440
other favorite models from back 
then. 

1000
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:14,860
Tell me to shut up when you need
to. 

1001
01:00:15,100 --> 01:00:16,260
No, no, no. 
Don't go for it. 

1002
01:00:16,340 --> 01:00:17,140
Go for it. 
Loving it. 

1003
01:00:17,300 --> 01:00:20,220
Yeah. 
OK, lovely. 

1004
01:00:20,340 --> 01:00:22,500
Weren't they? 
Fabulous things. 

1005
01:00:22,620 --> 01:00:24,860
Armpit hair as well. 
Armpit hair. 

1006
01:00:24,860 --> 01:00:27,540
And covered in boils and 
goodness knows what. 

1007
01:00:28,380 --> 01:00:33,020
And oh, the plague monk standard
bearer, That kind of thing. 

1008
01:00:33,300 --> 01:00:35,540
Yeah, of it. 
They were just. 

1009
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:38,660
I think that was The thing is, 
what magic banners and what have

1010
01:00:38,660 --> 01:00:39,900
you. 
Weren't they just, you know, 

1011
01:00:40,420 --> 01:00:41,900
lovely things? 
I know warlocks gave them 

1012
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:43,780
warlocks and that kind of stuff.
I like that. 

1013
01:00:44,020 --> 01:00:44,580
Model. 
That's great. 

1014
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:47,860
Yeah, Yeah, there, there's some 
lovely models. 

1015
01:00:47,860 --> 01:00:50,460
There's another one in here 
somewhere, I think, with a with 

1016
01:00:50,460 --> 01:00:53,180
another thing like him. 
Cool. 

1017
01:00:53,420 --> 01:00:56,980
They're they're great models. 
So these these models all must, 

1018
01:00:57,020 --> 01:00:59,860
you know, they'd be called Old 
Hammer now, that's for sure. 

1019
01:01:00,260 --> 01:01:04,620
They're all dating back to 1990.
Something I couldn't say. 

1020
01:01:04,740 --> 01:01:07,980
Exactly 399 three. 
Yeah, sadly. 

1021
01:01:07,980 --> 01:01:13,180
I think actually some of the 
worst sculpts and casting at 

1022
01:01:13,180 --> 01:01:17,300
that time were the Storm vermin.
I don't know if you remember, 

1023
01:01:17,300 --> 01:01:22,700
but they were all too big to 
rank up together, so it meant 

1024
01:01:22,700 --> 01:01:25,060
you've got this elite unit of 
Storm vermin. 

1025
01:01:25,060 --> 01:01:27,140
Actually, it's like they didn't 
like one or the other. 

1026
01:01:27,140 --> 01:01:29,260
They didn't want to stick 
together at all. 

1027
01:01:30,060 --> 01:01:32,780
But yeah, yeah, I've got box 
those. 

1028
01:01:32,780 --> 01:01:36,340
But I even loved the things. 
Like back then, they were still 

1029
01:01:36,340 --> 01:01:40,580
plastic, the giant rats and. 
Things Oh, cool. 

1030
01:01:40,820 --> 01:01:42,260
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Lovely. 

1031
01:01:42,380 --> 01:01:44,580
Rat swarms. 
Rat swarms. 

1032
01:01:44,580 --> 01:01:47,260
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
I don't know what have I what 

1033
01:01:47,260 --> 01:01:49,340
else? 
Oh, God, this is a really old 

1034
01:01:49,340 --> 01:01:52,940
one now. 
This was a really old warlord. 

1035
01:01:53,340 --> 01:01:56,140
I love that guy. 
Yeah, it was cool going way 

1036
01:01:56,260 --> 01:01:57,700
back. 
So that's one of the really 

1037
01:01:57,700 --> 01:02:00,580
early ones, isn't it? 
It was the sculptor back then. 

1038
01:02:00,580 --> 01:02:02,220
Was it Cheers Griffin or 
something? 

1039
01:02:02,660 --> 01:02:05,700
Yeah, I was going to say. 
I think I picked up a 

1040
01:02:05,940 --> 01:02:08,460
publication. 
My tiger. 

1041
01:02:08,780 --> 01:02:11,900
Tiger called heroes for war 
games. 

1042
01:02:12,780 --> 01:02:14,620
God, yes, I've got that. 
Downstairs down on the show. 

1043
01:02:14,700 --> 01:02:16,820
Okay, okay, I thought it might 
be on the shelf next to you, but

1044
01:02:16,820 --> 01:02:20,060
it's downstairs. 
But it's got, yeah, a big 

1045
01:02:20,620 --> 01:02:23,700
catalog spread of all the 
original Scaven that Jess 

1046
01:02:23,740 --> 01:02:27,140
William sculpted. 
And it is my belief, and I'm not

1047
01:02:27,140 --> 01:02:30,180
100% sure, that I think he might
have actually created the entire

1048
01:02:30,180 --> 01:02:32,320
race. 
Right. 

1049
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,840
He created a background. 
He created, you know, the 

1050
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,760
obviously the design of the 
figures and everything like that

1051
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,400
and maybe and then worked with 
other designers to flesh out the

1052
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,640
race itself. 
And I think the first time I 

1053
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,440
ever saw them appear in the law 
and that kind of thing was the 

1054
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:51,120
Warhammer Fantasy role play 
first edition core book. 

1055
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,440
Oh right. 
And in the back there was a 

1056
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,640
scenario where you face the 
Scaven. 

1057
01:02:56,140 --> 01:02:58,820
And yeah, they're exactly, 
they're they're very early, just

1058
01:02:58,980 --> 01:03:01,420
very early. 
They were so much smaller, you 

1059
01:03:01,420 --> 01:03:04,780
know, kind of like you can 
imagine them sneaking around. 

1060
01:03:05,060 --> 01:03:09,380
That's right, These ones, unlike
the latest cave and that kind of

1061
01:03:09,380 --> 01:03:12,340
got more beefed up. 
And as I certainly once we got 

1062
01:03:12,340 --> 01:03:15,940
to the once of these, got to 
these blooming storm vermin that

1063
01:03:15,940 --> 01:03:18,900
won't rack up together, they're 
a very different kind of 

1064
01:03:19,180 --> 01:03:22,630
proposition, aren't they? 
The main reason was they changed

1065
01:03:22,630 --> 01:03:24,990
this the sculptor. 
So the Moralda miniature team, 

1066
01:03:24,990 --> 01:03:29,230
Colin Dixon designed a lot of 
those models, and of course the 

1067
01:03:29,230 --> 01:03:31,550
scale of them were just too big 
and too chunky. 

1068
01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:33,910
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Lovely models, but yeah, they 

1069
01:03:33,950 --> 01:03:35,430
just didn't rank up very nice. 
Yeah. 

1070
01:03:36,030 --> 01:03:37,390
Yeah. 
So there we are. 

1071
01:03:37,390 --> 01:03:40,190
So that's me showing some of my 
scaven bona fide. 

1072
01:03:40,590 --> 01:03:42,470
That's the first time I first 
see that mate, so thank you very

1073
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:43,910
much for the privilege of seeing
those. 

1074
01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:44,750
It's great. 
Oh, that's. 

1075
01:03:44,750 --> 01:03:46,270
You're welcome. 
You're very welcome. 

1076
01:03:46,270 --> 01:03:51,520
And The thing is, as I say, 
because I'm now doing D&D and 

1077
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,440
stuff, they they regularly get 
used. 

1078
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,000
These things don't just sit 
around doing nothing, They're 

1079
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:02,520
getting used in a kind of D&D 
context. 

1080
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:07,400
And of course there is now what 
am I using? 

1081
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:13,280
5th edition D&DI think it is the
one that's kind of vast, and I 

1082
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,440
couldn't possibly remember 
everything that's in there 

1083
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:19,830
nowadays. 
But there's there's a Scaven 

1084
01:04:19,830 --> 01:04:22,390
kind of conversion that's been 
done because of course rat men 

1085
01:04:22,390 --> 01:04:28,590
have always existed in D&D. 
But the the kind of ethos of the

1086
01:04:28,590 --> 01:04:32,510
Scaven needed to be kind of 
translated to D&D and it's it's 

1087
01:04:32,510 --> 01:04:35,070
really good fun because I get to
use these old models. 

1088
01:04:35,070 --> 01:04:38,870
I probably wouldn't get to use 
much otherwise because I haven't

1089
01:04:38,870 --> 01:04:43,610
got a local opponent anymore 
who's into what we now have to 

1090
01:04:43,610 --> 01:04:47,410
call old Hammer. 
But there is a there's a lovely 

1091
01:04:47,410 --> 01:04:52,410
guy who you will see on Twitter 
under the handle of goat major 

1092
01:04:52,410 --> 01:04:56,810
at GOAT Major, lovely guy called
Simon Tonkis, who is someone I 

1093
01:04:56,810 --> 01:05:00,370
know I met through historical 
wargaming kind of connections. 

1094
01:05:01,170 --> 01:05:04,770
And he's a fabulous figure 
painter as well, but he's really

1095
01:05:04,770 --> 01:05:09,530
into old hammer stuff. 
But he's really old Old Hammer. 

1096
01:05:09,650 --> 01:05:13,170
He's going back to like third 
edition, I think it was, yeah, 

1097
01:05:14,730 --> 01:05:17,010
Because something else that I've
just remembered that the very 

1098
01:05:17,010 --> 01:05:23,490
first Warhammer I bought, the 
Magic came in a separate box, 

1099
01:05:23,490 --> 01:05:25,970
didn't it? 
With a lot of cards and things. 

1100
01:05:25,970 --> 01:05:26,530
That's. 
Right. 

1101
01:05:26,690 --> 01:05:29,210
Yeah, so that'll be 4th edition 
or 5th edition, because 5th 

1102
01:05:29,210 --> 01:05:31,890
edition also had a magic set, 
which I've seen on your shelf. 

1103
01:05:32,410 --> 01:05:34,170
In one of the pictures pictures 
on Twitter. 

1104
01:05:34,330 --> 01:05:37,050
So you do actually have the 5th 
edition magic set? 

1105
01:05:37,490 --> 01:05:38,810
Yeah. 
Is it the 5th edition? 

1106
01:05:38,930 --> 01:05:41,490
I can't keep remember what 
edition is what. 

1107
01:05:41,490 --> 01:05:43,410
Yeah, yeah. 
I'll tell you, mate, that one. 

1108
01:05:44,090 --> 01:05:47,130
That's all right, mate. 
But anyway, so that's kind of 

1109
01:05:47,130 --> 01:05:51,290
my, the Scaven stuff that I've 
still got. 

1110
01:05:51,290 --> 01:05:54,890
And I've got, I'm pointing over 
there, there's a shelf over 

1111
01:05:54,890 --> 01:05:59,170
there with a couple of those 
really useful boxes full of more

1112
01:05:59,170 --> 01:06:04,740
stuff. 
I've got a load of basic Scaven 

1113
01:06:04,940 --> 01:06:07,300
plastic warriors that I'm 
sitting in the process of 

1114
01:06:07,340 --> 01:06:08,500
painting. 
Actually, I don't know if I'll 

1115
01:06:08,500 --> 01:06:09,580
ever get around to finishing 
them. 

1116
01:06:10,620 --> 01:06:15,100
And oh, God, CJ, what have I 
got? 

1117
01:06:15,100 --> 01:06:17,540
Have I got it here? 
Oh, actually, I've got another 

1118
01:06:17,900 --> 01:06:22,100
one of the other boxes here, 
which has got mostly unpainted 

1119
01:06:22,100 --> 01:06:22,940
stuff. 
Oh, God. 

1120
01:06:22,980 --> 01:06:26,100
But I will show you this. 
Hang on. 

1121
01:06:26,100 --> 01:06:29,820
Let's put it over there. 
Yeah, because this one's heavy. 

1122
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:35,720
You've got things like the Warp 
Fire cannon. 

1123
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,720
Right, I thought that was a 
great model. 

1124
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,840
The warp fire. 
Cannon Ingenious engineering 

1125
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:46,880
from the skating. 
It shouldn't blow up, should it?

1126
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,560
On this fire roll, don't stand 
in the way. 

1127
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:57,200
I've also got a siege ram which 
I haven't finished painting yet,

1128
01:06:58,420 --> 01:07:01,980
because of course there's this 
this big life is cheap kind of 

1129
01:07:02,740 --> 01:07:05,180
vibe that the Scaven have and 
some other. 

1130
01:07:05,180 --> 01:07:06,500
What's in here? 
I'm paying. 

1131
01:07:06,540 --> 01:07:09,820
Oh my God, look who I've just 
discovered. 

1132
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:15,360
Do you know who he is? 
Is it Prasanna or whatever it's 

1133
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:20,040
called the the standard amulet 
guy. 

1134
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,400
He's like the right, he's like 
the top dude. 

1135
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:24,520
Yeah, the the inbox, right? 
Yeah. 

1136
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,160
And the course under remembers 
name What is that's that's yes. 

1137
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:30,640
Prasanna I can't exactly 
remember. 

1138
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:32,120
I can't. 
It's something like that. 

1139
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:33,120
Good. 
Things that I can never 

1140
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,840
pronounce, but but there we are.
He's actually due for a repaint 

1141
01:07:37,830 --> 01:07:42,070
because he got well used in 
various hero Quest dungeons and 

1142
01:07:42,070 --> 01:07:47,550
things. 
So, and who else is this Thrott,

1143
01:07:47,550 --> 01:07:51,870
The unclean one of the original 
castings with the man catcher? 

1144
01:07:52,110 --> 01:07:55,070
Yep, that's right. 
So yeah, you get ensnared and 

1145
01:07:55,070 --> 01:07:57,070
that thing is going to take your
head off, basically. 

1146
01:07:57,110 --> 01:07:59,110
That's right. 
Yeah, lovely intention. 

1147
01:08:00,310 --> 01:08:02,710
We've got another. 
He's going to be some kind of 

1148
01:08:02,950 --> 01:08:05,030
Gracie or something like that, 
isn't he? 

1149
01:08:06,210 --> 01:08:08,210
So it could be like a warlock or
something like that. 

1150
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:12,130
Easy, yeah. 
And someone pointing, looking 

1151
01:08:12,130 --> 01:08:14,090
important is pointing. 
He must be in charge of 

1152
01:08:14,090 --> 01:08:15,370
something. 
Right. 

1153
01:08:15,370 --> 01:08:17,930
And it's got this little warp 
fire pistol. 

1154
01:08:17,930 --> 01:08:19,810
Yeah, that's right, warp fire 
pistol. 

1155
01:08:20,450 --> 01:08:24,800
That's one thing, actually I do 
love about the Scaven is the 

1156
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,800
whole notion of the Warp Stone. 
Is the fact that basically it's 

1157
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,479
like heroin. 
It's crack cocaine, right? 

1158
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,720
And up to a point, the more of 
it you nibble, the more powerful

1159
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,960
you become. 
But then, oh, look out for the 

1160
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,240
consequences. 
Yeah, this is great. 

1161
01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:43,080
I've not been on a podcast 
before, Josh, where I get to get

1162
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,040
my toys out in quite this way. 
That's. 

1163
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:46,439
Awesome. 
I'm really happy. 

1164
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:48,479
I'm really enjoying that. 
It's making anything that it's 

1165
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:52,340
good to see and also of course 
there have been some lovely 

1166
01:08:52,340 --> 01:08:56,580
publications in recent years and
they one of the things that I'm 

1167
01:08:56,580 --> 01:09:00,660
going to hold up this uniforms 
and heraldry of the Scaven, 

1168
01:09:01,460 --> 01:09:03,300
right. 
Have you not seen that? 

1169
01:09:03,340 --> 01:09:05,899
I've not seen that because 
that's sort of like later 

1170
01:09:05,899 --> 01:09:07,620
editions, maybe 8th edition or 
something like that. 

1171
01:09:07,660 --> 01:09:09,420
Yeah, yeah. 
But I I wanted to grab. 

1172
01:09:09,740 --> 01:09:13,899
By Neil Neil Hodgson and Robin 
Cruddis. 

1173
01:09:13,939 --> 01:09:17,660
I don't know who they are now. 
This would have been published. 

1174
01:09:18,359 --> 01:09:21,920
I suppose it's a few years ago 
now, but annoyingly they make it

1175
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:27,319
really hard to find publication 
dates 2010. 2010, So yeah, I 

1176
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:29,520
remember that third edition, 
when it when the 3rd edition 

1177
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,359
came out. 
So we got the big reboot of 

1178
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:35,120
Warhammer, basically. 
Yeah, gosh, was it? 

1179
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:38,240
Was it third edition Crikey? 
I've lost. 

1180
01:09:38,319 --> 01:09:40,399
I lost track. 
Yeah, 8th, probably. 8th edition

1181
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:41,840
mate. 2000, Eighth edition, 
Yeah. 

1182
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,840
I was going to say. 
Not third edition, no, but it's 

1183
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,160
full of if you're a scaven nut 
stuff that we love. 

1184
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:54,720
All the different rooms and all 
the different clans of course. 

1185
01:09:54,720 --> 01:10:00,720
So you got clan Eschen. 
Clan pestilence, Clan moulder, 

1186
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:05,720
Clan skrier. 
We've got the grace sears. 

1187
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:08,840
Oh, great reference. 
Showing you know how to paint 

1188
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,400
things. 
The Warlord clans of Clan Moors 

1189
01:10:12,350 --> 01:10:19,630
and Clan Falcon, whoever. 
Falcon are someone just like 

1190
01:10:19,830 --> 01:10:22,710
that, yeah. 
Dwells in Fortress Warrens, 

1191
01:10:22,990 --> 01:10:25,990
carved into the searing heart of
Fire Mountain. 

1192
01:10:26,270 --> 01:10:29,590
All clan members are branded 
upon birth, and its warriors dye

1193
01:10:29,590 --> 01:10:34,070
their fur a bright red. 
The warriors of Clan Falcon bare

1194
01:10:34,070 --> 01:10:38,670
blades of shiny black Obsidian 
mind deep beneath their volcanic

1195
01:10:38,670 --> 01:10:40,430
layers. 
There we go. 

1196
01:10:40,830 --> 01:10:45,110
So lots of background fluff, 
loads of banner designs and 

1197
01:10:45,110 --> 01:10:49,870
stuff, and it's Clan Morbidous. 
This is a nice one. 

1198
01:10:50,470 --> 01:10:53,030
Clan Crizzle. 
They've made-up some new clans. 

1199
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:57,990
Basically what I love about this
is someone's gone through the 

1200
01:10:57,990 --> 01:11:02,990
scaving and done what I do with 
my imaginations stuff. 

1201
01:11:03,470 --> 01:11:05,870
Yeah, they've sat there making 
shit up. 

1202
01:11:05,870 --> 01:11:14,550
Josh and I completely, I 
completely endorse that big a 

1203
01:11:14,550 --> 01:11:18,390
clan septic because some of the 
names are great, aren't they? 

1204
01:11:19,510 --> 01:11:22,630
Because I know what it. 
I know what it could be like 

1205
01:11:22,630 --> 01:11:32,170
mate, is that someone comes to 
the hobby and you know, might 

1206
01:11:32,170 --> 01:11:35,490
not have the same level of 
imagination as some other 

1207
01:11:35,490 --> 01:11:38,130
people. 
And so to a certain extent, you 

1208
01:11:38,130 --> 01:11:41,210
know, some of us might be moan 
the fact, oh God, people need to

1209
01:11:41,210 --> 01:11:45,010
be spoon fed these days. 
But actually my feeling is, if 

1210
01:11:45,010 --> 01:11:48,850
it helps get someone into the 
hobby quicker and more deeply, 

1211
01:11:49,210 --> 01:11:52,220
where's the harm of it? 
You know, if someone looks at a 

1212
01:11:52,220 --> 01:11:55,420
book like this is, I mean, this 
is great clan scurvy. 

1213
01:11:55,700 --> 01:11:58,860
So they have, they're like the 
Marines, they're the Navy of the

1214
01:11:58,860 --> 01:12:03,420
Scaven, right? 
With their mad ramshackle ships.

1215
01:12:04,940 --> 01:12:07,940
That's fantastic. 
And in fact, in the D&D campaign

1216
01:12:07,940 --> 01:12:10,340
that I'm running at the moment, 
I've decided, do you know what? 

1217
01:12:10,340 --> 01:12:15,010
Clan scurvy fits the bill 
perfectly for what I want to do.

1218
01:12:15,010 --> 01:12:17,970
Because there's some guys, you 
know, they're invading this 

1219
01:12:18,090 --> 01:12:21,090
island I've created for Denzel, 
right? 

1220
01:12:21,330 --> 01:12:25,610
So they're they're Scaven have 
tunneled their way in and popped

1221
01:12:25,610 --> 01:12:28,490
up via the silver mines that are
on the island. 

1222
01:12:28,490 --> 01:12:31,210
You know, suddenly the islands 
are horrified that they're 

1223
01:12:31,210 --> 01:12:36,170
looking for seams of silver, and
suddenly they've come across 

1224
01:12:36,170 --> 01:12:39,810
this glowing green stone that's 
in the mines as well. 

1225
01:12:39,810 --> 01:12:42,650
You know, what the Hell's that? 
And before they know it, this 

1226
01:12:42,650 --> 01:12:45,090
has attracted the attention of 
the Scaven, you know. 

1227
01:12:45,730 --> 01:12:50,090
And so the the Scaven launched 
this invasion partly via tunnels

1228
01:12:50,090 --> 01:12:53,850
underneath the sea and up into 
the island but also partly they 

1229
01:12:53,850 --> 01:12:59,490
do kind of a D-Day invasion, you
know with Scan Clan, Scurvy as 

1230
01:12:59,490 --> 01:13:04,090
the people who help transport 
the the other Scaven to the 

1231
01:13:04,090 --> 01:13:07,770
island with of course much 
infighting and argument and 

1232
01:13:08,130 --> 01:13:14,340
disasters, absolute 
assassinations, bad mouthing. 

1233
01:13:14,940 --> 01:13:21,380
So actually having this kind of 
reference material is really 

1234
01:13:21,380 --> 01:13:24,580
useful and some of this kind of 
story stuff behind it. 

1235
01:13:25,500 --> 01:13:28,700
I think this is one of those 
wonderful things actually if I'm

1236
01:13:28,700 --> 01:13:31,620
going to credit Games Workshop 
with something, the amount of 

1237
01:13:31,660 --> 01:13:36,420
effort they put into the the 
fluff is extraordinary. 

1238
01:13:36,940 --> 01:13:40,870
You know, they hire people to 
write this stuff. 

1239
01:13:41,510 --> 01:13:45,150
Yeah, well, I was going to say 
like Bill King was a massive 

1240
01:13:45,470 --> 01:13:50,710
influence early on during the 
4th edition era in creating a 

1241
01:13:50,710 --> 01:13:52,950
lot of the Army books, and 
that's that cannon that sort of 

1242
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:56,360
carried on all the way through. 
For years, through various 

1243
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:58,520
editions and through books and 
that kind of thing. 

1244
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,360
So yeah, he's been a real 
pinnacle of the of forming the 

1245
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,160
We'll have a World in many lots.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. 

1246
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,440
As another book, I'll hold up 
here, which is more recent 

1247
01:14:08,440 --> 01:14:13,000
again, I think the loathsome 
ratsman and all their vile kin. 

1248
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:14,320
I don't know if you've seen 
this. 

1249
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:20,280
No, this is a paperback thing by
Vilhelm Liber, but I don't think

1250
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:24,770
that's their real name. 
By the outdoor press, of course,

1251
01:14:24,770 --> 01:14:26,930
it's not who's actually written 
it. 

1252
01:14:27,410 --> 01:14:29,890
Mitchell Scanlon is the actual 
writer. 

1253
01:14:30,890 --> 01:14:36,570
And this came out and oh, first 
published in 2004. 

1254
01:14:36,570 --> 01:14:39,170
What? 
Interestingly, So this is a 

1255
01:14:39,170 --> 01:14:42,530
reprint of something that first 
came out in 2004. 

1256
01:14:42,730 --> 01:14:46,450
Yes, this is 2020, this reprint.
So. 

1257
01:14:46,770 --> 01:14:52,680
And again, it's just loads of 
background fluff and law about 

1258
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:57,320
different aspects of the Scaven.
So it turns out I'm more of a 

1259
01:14:57,320 --> 01:14:59,040
Scaven nut than you thought I 
would. 

1260
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:01,920
We're. 
Bringing out the closet now, 

1261
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:02,880
mate. 
Yeah, that's great. 

1262
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:12,280
But yes, it's the The thing is 
that I think the Scaven, because

1263
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:15,480
there's just such a sense of fun
attached to them. 

1264
01:15:16,060 --> 01:15:18,180
You know, I've got Empire as 
well. 

1265
01:15:18,180 --> 01:15:22,500
I've got Britonians as well, and
obviously both those armies can 

1266
01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:26,020
look stunning on the table top, 
You know, Britonians with all 

1267
01:15:26,020 --> 01:15:30,700
the heraldry and the Empire with
all the armor and bright colors,

1268
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:33,870
a little thing. 
I don't know if you know about 

1269
01:15:33,870 --> 01:15:36,750
me. 
I like the Empire because many 

1270
01:15:36,750 --> 01:15:39,630
years ago when I was in 
historical reenactment, I was a 

1271
01:15:39,630 --> 01:15:42,950
Lance Connect. 
I was one of those German 

1272
01:15:42,950 --> 01:15:45,830
mercenary soldiers swinging 
around a great big sword. 

1273
01:15:46,270 --> 01:15:53,790
And so the costume that I wore 
is direct Empire, right? 

1274
01:15:54,030 --> 01:15:57,070
That's it. 
The Empire is a direct copy of 

1275
01:15:57,350 --> 01:16:03,260
that kind of Renaissance era 
stress, so you know, that has 

1276
01:16:03,260 --> 01:16:09,660
its appeal. 
But I mean, there's a few funky 

1277
01:16:09,660 --> 01:16:11,020
things. 
I mean, obviously some of the 

1278
01:16:11,020 --> 01:16:15,020
firepower aspects of the Empire 
can be quite interesting. 

1279
01:16:15,020 --> 01:16:17,460
And of course they the maddest 
thing they ever had was the 

1280
01:16:17,460 --> 01:16:20,220
steam tank. 
A model. 

1281
01:16:20,420 --> 01:16:23,260
A model which I'm now told is 
worth quite a lot of money. 

1282
01:16:23,260 --> 01:16:34,830
And I've got one over my and, 
yeah, and the the Bretonians, 

1283
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:39,190
you know, they've got their kind
of philosophical law behind it. 

1284
01:16:39,190 --> 01:16:42,750
And obviously the the sight of 
all those nights in their 

1285
01:16:42,750 --> 01:16:46,150
comparisons and stuff stuff can 
look amazing on the tabletop 

1286
01:16:46,550 --> 01:16:49,070
once you've spent months and 
months and months painting them.

1287
01:16:49,910 --> 01:16:55,670
But I just think that those are 
two armies that are quite 

1288
01:16:55,670 --> 01:16:59,710
serious, you know what I mean? 
They're quite, you know, you 

1289
01:16:59,710 --> 01:17:02,630
could put them on a historical 
war game battlefield and they 

1290
01:17:02,630 --> 01:17:04,550
would do perfectly well, yeah. 
That's right. 

1291
01:17:05,270 --> 01:17:09,390
So it's the Scaven and and the 
other army that I've kind of got

1292
01:17:09,390 --> 01:17:12,710
but haven't invested much time 
in painting it is the goblins, 

1293
01:17:13,470 --> 01:17:18,030
you know, with their with their 
doom divers and and mad squiggs 

1294
01:17:18,030 --> 01:17:21,070
and that kind of stuff. 
That's another army that I just 

1295
01:17:21,070 --> 01:17:23,750
think what I laugh. 
So what I really ought to be 

1296
01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:28,280
doing is playing games of Scaven
versus Goblins, because of 

1297
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:30,880
course, they bump into each 
other under the, in the tunnels 

1298
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:34,880
under the. 
But that would just be utterly 

1299
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:38,440
random as a game, wouldn't it? 
Would be just completely random.

1300
01:17:38,440 --> 01:17:43,640
Two totally mad armies doing mad
things fueled by mad potions. 

1301
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:49,320
What a laugh. 
And also, they're relatively 

1302
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:50,880
small, the goblins in 
particular. 

1303
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:56,440
I mean, I don't know. 
Probably. 

1304
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:54,880
I haven't seen recent goblins. 
Have goblins grown in the same 

1305
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,360
way as scale? 
I think so, yeah. 

1306
01:17:57,360 --> 01:17:59,920
They're probably exaggerated 32 
mil or whatever now. 

1307
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:02,000
But yeah, might be like the ones
like. 

1308
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:04,760
And I feel the same way because 
I, you know, I first started 

1309
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:08,080
more Hammer with Heils, which 
are beautiful models from 4th 

1310
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:10,280
edition. 
Beautiful gorgeous Jess wooden 

1311
01:18:10,480 --> 01:18:13,280
designs, and they're gorgeous. 
They look beautiful on the table

1312
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:17,300
top, but they're so methodical. 
There's no kind of, you know, 

1313
01:18:17,300 --> 01:18:19,740
there's no kind of sort of 
randomness to them. 

1314
01:18:19,780 --> 01:18:23,540
But then when I switched to much
later on the night, goblins 

1315
01:18:23,940 --> 01:18:27,700
later on and I had just a ball 
playing them because they'll do 

1316
01:18:27,780 --> 01:18:30,180
all this crazy wacky stuff. 
You have the fanatics coming 

1317
01:18:30,220 --> 01:18:34,740
down and swinging their ball and
chain and we'd have coming 

1318
01:18:34,740 --> 01:18:37,460
through into the sky and 
plunging themselves into the 

1319
01:18:37,460 --> 01:18:39,700
units and killing themselves in 
the process and. 

1320
01:18:40,130 --> 01:18:43,130
And all this wonderful wild 
magic and the shamans will head,

1321
01:18:43,210 --> 01:18:46,930
the heads will blow off because 
they're way too much wild power 

1322
01:18:46,930 --> 01:18:49,370
going surging through them. 
And I just had so much fun and 

1323
01:18:49,370 --> 01:18:51,490
I'd lose every time, but it 
wouldn't matter because I just 

1324
01:18:51,490 --> 01:18:53,410
had. 
Yeah, it's an enormous amount of

1325
01:18:53,410 --> 01:18:55,770
fun playing them. 
And I think they even are kind 

1326
01:18:55,770 --> 01:19:00,930
of the same. 
And I think this is where the 

1327
01:19:00,930 --> 01:19:03,090
contrast between me and my 
friend Guy. 

1328
01:19:03,090 --> 01:19:08,210
For example, Guy Guy is a 
typical Dark Elf player. 

1329
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:12,520
The Dark Elves are just 
ruthless, right? 

1330
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:16,400
There's. 
And I looked, you see, I look at

1331
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:19,880
that army and I think, well, it 
looked amazing, right? 

1332
01:19:20,440 --> 01:19:23,600
And with all riding the 
Velociraptor things and the 

1333
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:29,720
corsairs and the sea green and 
you know, looked amazing in the 

1334
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:34,800
same way as many elf armies do. 
But my feeling about them was, 

1335
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,810
where's the fun? 
You know, if I want to play 

1336
01:19:38,810 --> 01:19:41,850
serious war games, I'll I'll go 
historical. 

1337
01:19:42,130 --> 01:19:49,250
You know, whereas I play 
fantasy, my, and this is 

1338
01:19:49,250 --> 01:19:51,570
obviously a personal opinion 
because not everyone's like 

1339
01:19:51,570 --> 01:19:54,490
this, Some people, for example, 
people who are very much into 

1340
01:19:54,490 --> 01:19:56,810
kind of the Lord of the Rings 
and that kind of stuff. 

1341
01:19:58,290 --> 01:20:02,570
It's a much more serious, almost
pseudo historical kind of thing,

1342
01:20:02,570 --> 01:20:04,290
isn't it? 
You know what you've got. 

1343
01:20:04,290 --> 01:20:08,910
There are armies that look. 
Pretty much historically ancient

1344
01:20:08,910 --> 01:20:15,150
slash medi, early medieval, 
doing battle with one another 

1345
01:20:15,150 --> 01:20:17,710
with a few orcs and things 
thrown in shore. 

1346
01:20:17,710 --> 01:20:19,870
But even the orcs behave in kind
of. 

1347
01:20:20,470 --> 01:20:24,070
You could say that, all right, 
they're savages in some way, but

1348
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:30,110
they're also they behave in a 
kind of pseudo historical way in

1349
01:20:30,110 --> 01:20:36,000
the way you might expect, say, a
native army facing a colonial 

1350
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:43,680
force might behave, you know? 
Whereas with Warhammer, I've 

1351
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:47,080
never wanted to take it terribly
seriously, right? 

1352
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:53,240
I've My primary thing is I want 
it to be fun and there. 

1353
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:56,960
And part of that has also come 
from, I think, starting with the

1354
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:01,370
Advanced Hero quest, which was 
these guys going down the 

1355
01:21:01,370 --> 01:21:06,330
dungeon assailed by untold 
numbers of initially scathing, 

1356
01:21:06,370 --> 01:21:10,930
right? 
And what a mad wacky situation 

1357
01:21:10,930 --> 01:21:13,690
that was. 
And I think that's kind of it, 

1358
01:21:13,690 --> 01:21:17,170
is that to me, Warhammer's 
almost like Wacky Races, if I 

1359
01:21:17,210 --> 01:21:21,850
can put it that way. 
And I love the fact that as you 

1360
01:21:21,970 --> 01:21:25,180
described the goblins there, in 
the same way as you could 

1361
01:21:25,180 --> 01:21:27,500
describe the skating, is that, 
well, you know, wow, there's a 

1362
01:21:27,500 --> 01:21:30,740
chance they might taste pieces, 
right? 

1363
01:21:31,380 --> 01:21:34,780
There's also a chance that they 
might utterly implode, right, 

1364
01:21:35,180 --> 01:21:39,820
and run away. 
And it takes a certain kind of 

1365
01:21:39,820 --> 01:21:43,220
player to go, you know what? 
What the hell? 

1366
01:21:43,220 --> 01:21:44,980
I'm just going to give it a go, 
right? 

1367
01:21:45,220 --> 01:21:48,140
And sometimes it works, and a 
lot of the time it doesn't, 

1368
01:21:48,140 --> 01:21:51,730
right? 
And it's the because of course 

1369
01:21:51,730 --> 01:21:53,890
it's the same with magic. 
I think that was one of the 

1370
01:21:53,890 --> 01:22:00,690
things as well that happened 
when at some point magic, or 

1371
01:22:00,690 --> 01:22:04,690
maybe it was this edition, magic
just became more like deploying 

1372
01:22:04,690 --> 01:22:09,210
heavy artillery, right? 
They changed the magic system 

1373
01:22:09,490 --> 01:22:13,700
and it became much more like 
magic became kind of more 

1374
01:22:13,700 --> 01:22:16,940
predictable, but also more 
vicious, right? 

1375
01:22:17,380 --> 01:22:21,020
And I kind of feel like I want 
my fantasy gaming. 

1376
01:22:21,140 --> 01:22:27,740
I wanted to have magic, but I I 
don't want the magic to dominate

1377
01:22:28,300 --> 01:22:32,060
the game because there can be 
that feeling, can't there? 

1378
01:22:32,060 --> 01:22:35,620
That what was the point of me 
turning up? 

1379
01:22:37,540 --> 01:22:39,580
I I didn't. 
I just didn't have enough 

1380
01:22:39,580 --> 01:22:43,650
dispelled dice, for whatever 
reason, because I chose a silly 

1381
01:22:43,650 --> 01:22:45,410
army. 
I haven't got enough dispelled, 

1382
01:22:45,410 --> 01:22:47,810
I said. 
Basically, I'm dead the moment I

1383
01:22:48,290 --> 01:22:51,730
make my first move. 
And that, to me is like, well, 

1384
01:22:51,930 --> 01:22:56,410
you know, what's the point? 
I like, you know, magic to me 

1385
01:22:56,410 --> 01:22:59,890
should be something that's not 
quite so predictably, 

1386
01:23:00,250 --> 01:23:02,850
predictably powerful all the 
time. 

1387
01:23:03,530 --> 01:23:08,030
It shouldn't feel like, Oh my 
God, this is World War One, 

1388
01:23:08,030 --> 01:23:10,790
trench warfare, and we're going 
into no man's land. 

1389
01:23:10,950 --> 01:23:13,030
If we reach the other side, 
we're lucky. 

1390
01:23:13,430 --> 01:23:17,590
You know that to me is that's 
not a game. 

1391
01:23:18,110 --> 01:23:22,590
That's right. 
I like to feel it's that balance

1392
01:23:22,590 --> 01:23:25,710
isn't with all with all gaming, 
unless you're doing directly a 

1393
01:23:25,710 --> 01:23:32,870
historical simulation of some 
kind, that notion of the 

1394
01:23:32,870 --> 01:23:39,700
imponderable of chance has to be
there in a kind of tangible way.

1395
01:23:40,300 --> 01:23:43,860
I'd like to, but but it's a 
balancing act, because also you 

1396
01:23:43,860 --> 01:23:45,740
don't want it to feel like it's 
too random. 

1397
01:23:46,300 --> 01:23:52,260
You want to feel like, actually,
if I use good tactics in this 

1398
01:23:52,260 --> 01:23:56,740
situation, I should stand a 
better than Even's chance of 

1399
01:23:56,740 --> 01:24:00,900
winning the game. 
If if I, if I use my troops 

1400
01:24:00,980 --> 01:24:05,960
badly, If I deployed them badly,
you know, okay, that's my own 

1401
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:07,720
fault. 
But I like to feel like do you 

1402
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:10,680
know what if I've really thought
about this and supported my 

1403
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:14,080
units as they advance and and 
given covering fire and all that

1404
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:18,560
kind of stuff that should count 
for something rather than sorry 

1405
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:22,120
mate, you just turned up with 
the wrong army, blacked right 

1406
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,320
And having just written not so 
long ago the book about tabletop

1407
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:32,630
tactics, I would like to feel 
that those tactics could apply 

1408
01:24:32,630 --> 01:24:35,510
whether you're playing a fantasy
game, a sci-fi game or a 

1409
01:24:35,510 --> 01:24:38,550
historical game. 
Basically if you're using your 

1410
01:24:38,550 --> 01:24:42,870
mobile units correctly, your 
light troops correctly, you're 

1411
01:24:43,310 --> 01:24:46,430
you're placing your fire, your 
you know the your long range 

1412
01:24:46,430 --> 01:24:49,590
weapons in the you choose your 
position carefully so it covers 

1413
01:24:49,590 --> 01:24:52,190
the units advancing and so on 
and so forth. 

1414
01:24:52,430 --> 01:24:56,990
You're supporting your units. 
That should count for something.

1415
01:24:57,710 --> 01:25:00,350
Whereas if you're playing a rule
set where you just, Oh yeah, 

1416
01:25:00,350 --> 01:25:04,630
Plague of Doom Blatt oh okay, 
I'll just pack up my figures 

1417
01:25:04,630 --> 01:25:10,950
now, then I'll move to, right. 
That's and. 

1418
01:25:10,950 --> 01:25:14,830
But, and if and if mad things 
are going to happen, they need 

1419
01:25:14,830 --> 01:25:16,190
to be done with a sense of 
humor. 

1420
01:25:16,190 --> 01:25:19,430
Like we've described something 
like, you know, you walk 

1421
01:25:19,430 --> 01:25:24,390
lightning cannons too close to 
your own heavy units or 

1422
01:25:24,390 --> 01:25:27,430
whatever. 
You know, your your Pretonian 

1423
01:25:27,510 --> 01:25:30,990
tribuchet. 
Oh, it's way off target today, 

1424
01:25:31,030 --> 01:25:35,070
you know. 
But but I kind of feel like it 

1425
01:25:35,070 --> 01:25:37,790
doesn't matter whether it's 
historical or fantasy, as I say,

1426
01:25:37,790 --> 01:25:43,350
or scifi indeed, that tactics 
that are appropriate for the 

1427
01:25:43,350 --> 01:25:47,190
level of force that you've got. 
If you use those tactics, they 

1428
01:25:47,190 --> 01:25:50,390
should work more often than not.
That's how I feel. 

1429
01:25:51,350 --> 01:25:54,390
Of course, I'm going to get your
views on this in a couple of 

1430
01:25:54,390 --> 01:25:56,030
days time. 
That's right. 

1431
01:25:56,310 --> 01:25:56,950
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

1432
01:25:57,110 --> 01:25:58,030
No, I love. 
I love. 

1433
01:25:58,030 --> 01:26:00,150
So you can more about that. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1434
01:26:00,150 --> 01:26:04,110
So you can repost to what I've 
I'm saying here, but that's 

1435
01:26:04,110 --> 01:26:06,430
that's kind of how I feel. 
I I feel about it. 

1436
01:26:06,630 --> 01:26:10,030
But as I said certainly back in 
the early days of playing the 

1437
01:26:10,030 --> 01:26:14,510
Warhammer what a laugh. 
And you know, I I haven't 

1438
01:26:14,510 --> 01:26:16,990
played, I confess I haven't 
actually played a game of 

1439
01:26:16,990 --> 01:26:22,430
Warhammer Fantasy Battle now for
oh God, it's probably a couple 

1440
01:26:22,430 --> 01:26:24,990
of years with my godson just 
before he went off to 

1441
01:26:24,990 --> 01:26:28,910
university. 
But what a laugh. 

1442
01:26:28,910 --> 01:26:31,110
It brought back some memories. 
That's great. 

1443
01:26:31,270 --> 01:26:33,790
That's wonderful. 
Brought back some memories and 

1444
01:26:34,350 --> 01:26:35,830
I'd like to be doing some more 
again. 

1445
01:26:35,830 --> 01:26:40,230
And say Simon Tonkis, Goat Major
encouraged me to go out and get 

1446
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:44,710
a copy of I think it's third 
edition rule book, which is 

1447
01:26:44,750 --> 01:26:49,510
apparently really old hammer for
me to have a look at. 

1448
01:26:49,510 --> 01:26:53,190
And yeah, that would be quite 
interesting. 

1449
01:26:54,550 --> 01:26:55,230
Right. 
Yeah. 

1450
01:26:55,230 --> 01:26:58,630
I think I think those especially
4th edition that's that's that's

1451
01:26:58,630 --> 01:27:02,670
the era that I sort of started 
with and I think it's was always

1452
01:27:02,670 --> 01:27:07,710
Rick Priestly's approach when 
creating those rules was that 

1453
01:27:07,710 --> 01:27:11,670
you know he wanted you to have 
fun on the tabletop with the 

1454
01:27:11,670 --> 01:27:14,390
miniatures and have you know 
create your own stories and and 

1455
01:27:14,390 --> 01:27:17,480
narrative and. 
And you know, have the magic be 

1456
01:27:17,480 --> 01:27:22,240
wild and crazy and the armies 
also appropriately so, so that 

1457
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,480
you have have fun. 
You can never laugh at the end 

1458
01:27:24,480 --> 01:27:26,200
of the day. 
And it's not too serious, not 

1459
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:28,640
too dark. 
It's all very colorful and you 

1460
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,320
know, and very cartoonish. 
And that's something that's 

1461
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,960
really appealed to me and it 
sort of followed me all the way 

1462
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:38,170
through until I got back into. 
Collecting this stuff again that

1463
01:27:38,170 --> 01:27:41,010
it brought it, and I can see 
with you, with your escape and 

1464
01:27:41,010 --> 01:27:44,170
that kind of thing, it brings an
awful lot of joy and happiness. 

1465
01:27:44,170 --> 01:27:47,010
Just looking at all those bright
colors and all the cartoonish 

1466
01:27:47,730 --> 01:27:49,890
character to the miniatures and 
everything. 

1467
01:27:50,250 --> 01:27:52,290
And the games reflected that as 
well. 

1468
01:27:52,690 --> 01:27:55,890
And it sort of just got more in 
dark or more serious later on. 

1469
01:27:55,970 --> 01:27:58,890
And I think that's where you 
know, it sort of lost it for me.

1470
01:27:59,050 --> 01:28:04,760
But yeah, because I think also 
this is where I've all I can 

1471
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:09,400
confess I've only ever played 
one or two games of 40K. 

1472
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:17,240
Just doesn't appeal to me. 
And also, the real grim, dark 

1473
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:21,120
aspects of that universe don't 
appeal to me. 

1474
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:27,160
Yeah, each to their own. 
And I can see, you know, 

1475
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:29,960
Warhammer 40K is probably what 
the most popular game in the 

1476
01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:35,680
world just extraordinary. 
It just doesn't float my boat in

1477
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:37,600
the same way. 
There was some, there's 

1478
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:41,120
something, there's something 
about it just makes me 

1479
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:44,040
miserable. 
I don't know how to describe it 

1480
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:47,600
just makes me miserable. 
Even the even the visuals for it

1481
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:51,960
make me miserable. 
I can see again on Twitter or 

1482
01:28:53,420 --> 01:28:56,980
Blue Sky and all the other 
blooming social media places, 

1483
01:28:56,980 --> 01:29:01,300
these people posting pictures of
the most phenomenally painted 

1484
01:29:01,420 --> 01:29:05,180
Space Marines and stuff. 
Eldar and what have you and I 

1485
01:29:05,180 --> 01:29:07,860
can, I can. 
That's an aspect, OK, I can 

1486
01:29:07,860 --> 01:29:12,060
appreciate that. 
But the game itself doesn't do 

1487
01:29:12,060 --> 01:29:15,940
it for me, Also because it's, 
you know, it looks much more 

1488
01:29:15,940 --> 01:29:18,220
like a modern war game, if you 
like. 

1489
01:29:18,820 --> 01:29:23,340
The notion of all these closely 
packed tanks going wheel to 

1490
01:29:23,340 --> 01:29:28,180
wheel across a four foot table 
is it's just preposterous to me.

1491
01:29:28,540 --> 01:29:32,100
You know laser weapons 
technically have infinite range,

1492
01:29:32,100 --> 01:29:36,840
right? 
And so you know, the notion that

1493
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:40,760
people are getting toe to toe 
with the Las cannons, it's 

1494
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:44,720
really seriously, no. 
One of the characteristics of 

1495
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:48,960
real warfare, which I know 
something about is, and one of 

1496
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:51,960
the terrifying thing is the 
notion of the empty battlefield,

1497
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:56,560
where a battle's going on. 
But you, you really can't see 

1498
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:58,520
anything. 
You know that that shot that 

1499
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:00,960
takes your head off could come 
from absolutely anywhere. 

1500
01:30:01,470 --> 01:30:04,190
Everything's camouflaged. 
Everything's over the horizon. 

1501
01:30:04,190 --> 01:30:09,790
You know it's like and if you 
for scifi gaming for me to be, I

1502
01:30:09,790 --> 01:30:13,230
don't use the word realistic, I 
use the word plausible, right. 

1503
01:30:13,470 --> 01:30:16,950
I need to feel this, some of 
those characteristics about it, 

1504
01:30:17,190 --> 01:30:21,310
that it's actually not just 
wheel to wheel but of course of 

1505
01:30:21,310 --> 01:30:23,990
course this is the marketing 
guys, isn't it? 

1506
01:30:23,990 --> 01:30:29,000
This is the Oh yes you've got to
have 10 Lear Russ, whatever it 

1507
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:32,400
is, tanks and stuff and 10 
companies of space marines to 

1508
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:34,880
fit on your 6 by 4 table. 
What? 

1509
01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:39,080
No. 
Whereas with Warhammer Fantasy 

1510
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:42,960
Battle actually a medieval 
battle was a pretty crowded 

1511
01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:44,840
place. 
You know I can I can go with 

1512
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:46,640
that. 
So it doesn't offend my 

1513
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:49,280
sensibility in that way. 
I I need to kind of put in a 

1514
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:54,580
proviso because I've really got 
into, I've finished reading and 

1515
01:30:54,580 --> 01:30:58,100
listening to now all the novels 
of a wonderful guy called Joe 

1516
01:30:58,100 --> 01:31:00,100
Abercrombie. 
Do you know Joe Abercrombie? 

1517
01:31:00,420 --> 01:31:04,420
I said I don't know, right? 
Well, here's a recommendation. 

1518
01:31:04,980 --> 01:31:09,260
A fantasy British fantasy 
novelist called Joe Abercrombie 

1519
01:31:09,620 --> 01:31:14,820
who's written a series of God. 
It must be about a dozen or 15 

1520
01:31:14,820 --> 01:31:15,940
novels. 
I've lost track. 

1521
01:31:16,900 --> 01:31:20,620
The first lot are called the 
First Law series. 

1522
01:31:20,620 --> 01:31:23,980
The blade itself start with the 
Blade itself, but more 

1523
01:31:23,980 --> 01:31:29,620
importantly by the audiobooks. 
They're narrated by a guy called

1524
01:31:29,620 --> 01:31:35,420
Steven Pacey, who I swear is the
greatest narrator I've ever 

1525
01:31:35,420 --> 01:31:37,420
heard. 
And I've listened to a lot of 

1526
01:31:37,420 --> 01:31:40,500
audiobooks. 
His ability to do different 

1527
01:31:40,500 --> 01:31:46,270
voices is staggering. 
And the way he's characterized 

1528
01:31:46,270 --> 01:31:50,070
all these different characters 
in the Joe Abercrombie novels is

1529
01:31:50,350 --> 01:31:55,310
nothing short of, frankly, 
miraculous, absolutely 

1530
01:31:55,310 --> 01:31:57,710
extraordinary. 
So there's a recommendation, 

1531
01:31:57,710 --> 01:32:02,190
folks, the First Law series of 
the Starting with the Blade 

1532
01:32:02,190 --> 01:32:05,870
itself by Joe Abercrombie, 
narrated by Steven Pacey. 

1533
01:32:06,270 --> 01:32:09,510
Go and have a listen. 
Absolutely incredible. 

1534
01:32:09,710 --> 01:32:17,370
Now that that's pretty grim, 
dark, grisly fantasy, but it's 

1535
01:32:17,450 --> 01:32:20,770
absolutely gripping stuff. 
And the and the important thing 

1536
01:32:20,930 --> 01:32:24,170
there's a there's a vein of 
humor that runs through a lot of

1537
01:32:24,170 --> 01:32:30,480
it as well but the way it's 
narrated you will just I swear 

1538
01:32:30,480 --> 01:32:33,120
within book one you will going 
to fall in love with this 

1539
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:34,840
series. 
Absolutely amazing. 

1540
01:32:36,480 --> 01:32:40,320
So, but it's that so that I I I 
could relate to that for 

1541
01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:42,840
fantasy, for this particular 
fantasy series, but this. 

1542
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:47,920
But normally I like my stuff to 
have a touch of light about it 

1543
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:51,600
somewhere. 
You know, and I think that's why

1544
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:55,920
the four, the 40K universe just 
doesn't do it for me. 

1545
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,480
It might appeal to kind of 
depressed teenagers or 

1546
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:03,840
something. 
Yeah, well, that was a beauty 

1547
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:07,360
about the 90s because everything
was played on green tables and 

1548
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:11,000
it had gotten into the spaces. 
And once I started getting back 

1549
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:14,280
into it about five years ago, 
just painting those bases green.

1550
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:16,780
Just. 
Those glorious colors are yellow

1551
01:33:16,780 --> 01:33:21,380
and red. 
They just you know just full 

1552
01:33:21,380 --> 01:33:24,420
color spread on this is the 
battle book where and the way 

1553
01:33:24,420 --> 01:33:27,180
that you painted you did your 
bases back then so you get your 

1554
01:33:27,180 --> 01:33:31,700
base and you sprinkle a bit of 
sand on top let it dry the whole

1555
01:33:31,700 --> 01:33:35,780
thing gobbling green and then 
was a bit of sunburst yellow you

1556
01:33:35,780 --> 01:33:37,860
just dry brush the top of the 
gravel. 

1557
01:33:38,100 --> 01:33:40,540
Yeah, job done. 
That's it mate. 

1558
01:33:40,580 --> 01:33:43,460
It's just, you know and look at 
look how vibrant, look how 

1559
01:33:43,460 --> 01:33:45,810
beautiful those armies look. 
Table top. 

1560
01:33:46,250 --> 01:33:48,250
I mean, they really do. 
And the thing, but you know, it 

1561
01:33:48,290 --> 01:33:52,450
actually looks really consistent
because the Goblin green matches

1562
01:33:52,610 --> 01:33:55,730
the color of the mat. 
Now I'm really lucky because 

1563
01:33:55,730 --> 01:34:00,090
those original Games Workshop 
mats and they're like gold dust.

1564
01:34:00,570 --> 01:34:04,410
And I've got three of them, 
which you know is a real bit. 

1565
01:34:04,410 --> 01:34:07,050
And I use them all the time for 
my historical gaming as well 

1566
01:34:07,050 --> 01:34:10,370
because they actually look like 
grassland. 

1567
01:34:11,210 --> 01:34:12,730
They've got a really nice 
texture to it. 

1568
01:34:13,050 --> 01:34:15,850
But yeah, I mean things like, 
oh, here we go, here's the 

1569
01:34:15,890 --> 01:34:18,810
Empire army. 
Beautiful colors are absolutely 

1570
01:34:18,810 --> 01:34:20,650
outrageous, aren't they? 
They're fabulous. 

1571
01:34:20,650 --> 01:34:23,210
Incredible, yeah. 
It's one of the best painted 

1572
01:34:23,210 --> 01:34:26,970
armies I've ever seen in like 
terms of fantasy, historical. 

1573
01:34:27,490 --> 01:34:30,290
It's one of the greatest 
examples of miniature painting, 

1574
01:34:30,370 --> 01:34:32,610
I think, being, yeah, just 
beautiful. 

1575
01:34:32,970 --> 01:34:37,170
And that steam tank is just 
phenomenal, isn't it? 

1576
01:34:37,210 --> 01:34:40,250
Absolutely phenomenal. 
Yeah, absolutely phenomenal. 

1577
01:34:40,530 --> 01:34:43,250
I mean for for your listeners 
who can't see what I'm holding 

1578
01:34:43,250 --> 01:34:48,330
up, I'm referring to the the 
Battle book that was produced 

1579
01:34:48,330 --> 01:34:54,090
and when was this 1996 fabulous.
Another great book that I wanted

1580
01:34:54,090 --> 01:34:58,570
to point out was the. 
It was it called The Generals 

1581
01:34:58,570 --> 01:35:01,630
Compendium. 
I know you've. 

1582
01:35:01,710 --> 01:35:03,950
Moved a few times in your 
podcast, I think that Yeah, Yeah

1583
01:35:03,950 --> 01:35:08,550
Yeah, Yeah, which is full of 
loads of ideas for scenarios and

1584
01:35:08,550 --> 01:35:10,710
terrain making and painting and 
all kinds. 

1585
01:35:10,950 --> 01:35:15,980
Now that was put together by the
the team, the GW team over in 

1586
01:35:15,980 --> 01:35:20,380
the States rather than the UK 
thing, but it's a beautiful 

1587
01:35:20,380 --> 01:35:23,500
thing which I recommend to 
historical gamers, let alone 

1588
01:35:23,780 --> 01:35:25,380
fancy gamers or Warhammer 
gamers. 

1589
01:35:26,380 --> 01:35:28,420
So there we go. 
So I don't what else do you want

1590
01:35:28,420 --> 01:35:29,340
to ask me? 
Well. 

1591
01:35:30,220 --> 01:35:33,340
As if, as if confessed to be a 
Scaven nut, I thought I'd give 

1592
01:35:33,340 --> 01:35:36,420
you a quick quiz mate, to see 
how pulled you up on the 

1593
01:35:36,420 --> 01:35:38,980
Scavens. 
So I presented a few questions 

1594
01:35:38,980 --> 01:35:43,100
here for you, Henry. 
So I'm about to listen to this. 

1595
01:35:43,100 --> 01:35:45,620
He's got like 20 pages of 
questions there. 

1596
01:35:47,020 --> 01:35:48,100
Here we go. 
It's a wrong problem. 

1597
01:35:48,100 --> 01:35:49,540
I'm going to fail this test. 
Go ahead. 

1598
01:35:50,260 --> 01:35:53,420
So how many Scaven do you 
require to push the screaming 

1599
01:35:53,420 --> 01:35:55,260
bell? 
Maybe you know the screaming 

1600
01:35:55,260 --> 01:35:56,100
bell. 
You remember that? 

1601
01:35:56,140 --> 01:35:59,180
Oh my God, yes, Now the 
screaming bell. 

1602
01:35:59,580 --> 01:36:01,660
I was. 
Wasn't that 16 or something? 

1603
01:36:02,380 --> 01:36:05,870
16 Very close to 10. 
You'd only need to 10, right 10,

1604
01:36:06,150 --> 01:36:07,510
only 10. 
Is the preferred. 

1605
01:36:07,550 --> 01:36:10,870
Preferred #18 was the preferred 
number. 

1606
01:36:10,950 --> 01:36:13,710
Yeah, because if you kill, if 
you if they died, you still have

1607
01:36:13,710 --> 01:36:16,270
enough to push it, keep pushing 
it till you get to the enemy and

1608
01:36:16,270 --> 01:36:20,190
then it starts ringing the bell.
It probably kills more gave and 

1609
01:36:20,190 --> 01:36:22,150
then, you know, the actual enemy
of all the time it gets there. 

1610
01:36:22,150 --> 01:36:24,510
But actually, you're probably 
right because they did ranks of 

1611
01:36:24,510 --> 01:36:26,350
five, didn't they? 
So, yeah, yeah. 

1612
01:36:26,870 --> 01:36:27,630
OK. 
Yep. 

1613
01:36:27,750 --> 01:36:29,910
Now as you, as you mentioned to 
before, just before did the 

1614
01:36:29,910 --> 01:36:32,150
interview, did actually you'd 
actually go back and listen to 

1615
01:36:32,150 --> 01:36:35,840
one of my podcasts? 
Talking to the creator of the 

1616
01:36:35,840 --> 01:36:38,800
4th edition Army book for the 
Scaven, so this should be a 

1617
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:42,080
really easy question. 
So who wrote the Scaven army's 

1618
01:36:42,080 --> 01:36:45,280
book? 
You just listened to the 

1619
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:48,560
podcast, you said no, I didn't. 
I was going to listen to it, but

1620
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:52,040
I got I I didn't have a chance 
to listen it. 

1621
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:53,840
If you can, I could tell you I 
could. 

1622
01:36:55,080 --> 01:36:58,800
And I can cheat. 
And which book was this fourth. 

1623
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:00,040
It was that? 
Was it that one? 

1624
01:37:00,870 --> 01:37:02,030
No, it's not. 
That's the 6th edition. 

1625
01:37:02,070 --> 01:37:04,110
But maybe it's maybe it might be
the same writer. 

1626
01:37:04,110 --> 01:37:06,870
I don't know because he was 
still working at games worship 

1627
01:37:06,870 --> 01:37:08,470
at the time, but he looked like 
a skater. 

1628
01:37:09,270 --> 01:37:10,790
He looked like a skater. 
So was it. 

1629
01:37:10,790 --> 01:37:13,590
Was it Alessio Capatore? 
It wasn't Alessio Capatore. 

1630
01:37:13,590 --> 01:37:18,710
It was Andy Chambers. 
Oh, no, I should have known 

1631
01:37:18,710 --> 01:37:20,710
that. 
Oh, I'm doing terribly, folks. 

1632
01:37:20,710 --> 01:37:23,310
I knew I. 
Was if you listen to, if you 

1633
01:37:23,310 --> 01:37:26,150
listen to that podcast, I did 
the interview with Andy, he 

1634
01:37:26,150 --> 01:37:28,980
talks all about. 
How he created the book and you 

1635
01:37:28,980 --> 01:37:31,820
know, the reasons why he created
certain characters and regiments

1636
01:37:32,220 --> 01:37:35,020
in the skating only book, which 
is really, well, I definitely 

1637
01:37:35,020 --> 01:37:37,740
have to listen to it now. 
Wasn't it embarrassment apart? 

1638
01:37:38,540 --> 01:37:41,220
From that it was a good chapter 
and he's a great book. 

1639
01:37:42,100 --> 01:37:45,420
Now what color is Iket Claw's 
fur? 

1640
01:37:46,740 --> 01:37:50,180
Iket Claw is one of the 
characters for the scabing and 

1641
01:37:50,180 --> 01:37:55,860
he was a magic user and he had 
just big mechanical claw. 

1642
01:37:56,890 --> 01:37:59,810
Ick it now. 
Didn't he have white fur? 

1643
01:37:59,850 --> 01:38:02,770
Very good, very good, Henry. 
You've got one point, mate, one 

1644
01:38:02,770 --> 01:38:06,810
out of three. 
So what is the result for the 

1645
01:38:06,810 --> 01:38:10,050
screaming bell when you roll 18 
plus on the chart? 

1646
01:38:10,050 --> 01:38:14,050
So you gotta roll, you gotta 
roll either 1D6 or 2D6, and each

1647
01:38:14,050 --> 01:38:16,490
time you ring the bell, you 
gotta roll an extra dice each 

1648
01:38:16,490 --> 01:38:19,090
turn. 
And it sort of accumulates from 

1649
01:38:19,090 --> 01:38:20,970
there. 
And the higher the score, the 

1650
01:38:20,970 --> 01:38:24,850
more powerful it gets. 
But if you roll 18 or more, 

1651
01:38:25,540 --> 01:38:29,140
doesn't it shatter and kill all 
its crew as well? 

1652
01:38:29,140 --> 01:38:30,900
Exactly, Exactly. 
Which I'm sure you've 

1653
01:38:30,900 --> 01:38:32,900
experienced in your time playing
Scaven. 

1654
01:38:34,780 --> 01:38:37,980
Media time. 
Yes mate, Brilliant okay. 

1655
01:38:38,020 --> 01:38:41,580
And who wrote the stories 
contained within the Scaven 

1656
01:38:41,580 --> 01:38:44,620
book? 
Now there's a storyteller, Law 

1657
01:38:44,620 --> 01:38:48,540
Master, who created a lot of the
stories and background for the 

1658
01:38:48,540 --> 01:38:51,790
Scaven. 
I sort of hinted I hinted his 

1659
01:38:51,790 --> 01:38:53,710
name earlier in our 
conversation. 

1660
01:38:54,790 --> 01:38:56,350
I can't. 
No, I don't know that off the 

1661
01:38:56,350 --> 01:38:57,150
top. 
Of Bill King. 

1662
01:38:57,150 --> 01:38:58,190
Bill King. 
Right, Bill King. 

1663
01:38:58,550 --> 01:38:59,670
Oh, right. 
OK. 

1664
01:38:59,950 --> 01:39:04,470
He also wrote He also wrote the 
He wrote a series of books with 

1665
01:39:04,470 --> 01:39:08,590
Gotric and Felix and one was 
called The Scavenslayer, which I

1666
01:39:08,790 --> 01:39:10,590
don't want. 
To get the audio book mate, 

1667
01:39:10,590 --> 01:39:13,910
because it's absolutely 
hilarious to listen to, OK? 

1668
01:39:14,390 --> 01:39:17,870
Because I've seen that 
advertised somewhere, right? 

1669
01:39:18,550 --> 01:39:19,790
Did I ever have it? 
I don't know. 

1670
01:39:19,790 --> 01:39:22,070
No. 
Anyway, so it's a black library 

1671
01:39:22,150 --> 01:39:23,870
thing. 
It might be a black library 

1672
01:39:23,870 --> 01:39:24,990
thing. 
Otherwise I'll get you a link 

1673
01:39:25,070 --> 01:39:27,150
and you can listen to it. 
Cool, thank you mate. 

1674
01:39:27,710 --> 01:39:31,190
And okay, the last one who 
drives the doom wheel? 

1675
01:39:32,070 --> 01:39:34,790
Who's the driver? 
He's a warlock engineer. 

1676
01:39:34,790 --> 01:39:35,950
Isn't he very good? 
Perfect. 

1677
01:39:36,030 --> 01:39:36,910
Okay. 
Wonderful. 

1678
01:39:36,910 --> 01:39:38,350
So 2 out of 6 not bad. 
Henry. 

1679
01:39:38,510 --> 01:39:40,320
Not bad. 
I thought I was three. 

1680
01:39:40,320 --> 01:39:43,200
I've got three out of six there.
I've got three. 

1681
01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:44,440
I'll give you 3. 
OK, That's all. 

1682
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:51,280
OK. 50% hit rate that would do 
after this length of time. 

1683
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:53,040
I'll take that. 
I'll take that. 

1684
01:39:53,480 --> 01:39:55,600
Not too bad at all mate. 
So I really, really enjoyed 

1685
01:39:56,200 --> 01:39:59,080
chatting with you today, Henry. 
Like I said, it's been it's been

1686
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:01,800
in the making and the planning 
for a couple of years now. 

1687
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:04,520
I really enjoyed listening to 
you and Neil shook. 

1688
01:40:05,100 --> 01:40:08,620
Talking about on the Veranda 
Podcast when I first discovered 

1689
01:40:08,620 --> 01:40:10,620
you and following your whole 
journey. 

1690
01:40:10,620 --> 01:40:14,020
And now, of course, I'm a patron
on your Patreon. 

1691
01:40:14,340 --> 01:40:15,460
You are. 
Bless your heart. 

1692
01:40:15,460 --> 01:40:18,860
Thank you Kev and mate. 
You've entertained me now for I 

1693
01:40:18,900 --> 01:40:22,020
don't know how many hundreds of 
hours of your podcast on Battle 

1694
01:40:22,020 --> 01:40:24,260
Chat, and I think anybody should
go and check it out because it's

1695
01:40:24,260 --> 01:40:28,290
now available on most podcasting
platforms. 

1696
01:40:28,290 --> 01:40:30,450
Now people can access that and 
listen to it. 

1697
01:40:30,450 --> 01:40:33,610
Certainly on Spotify and stuff. 
Spotify definitely, for sure. 

1698
01:40:33,610 --> 01:40:36,090
And they should come and support
you on Patron because there's a 

1699
01:40:36,090 --> 01:40:39,490
lot of other bonus content on 
there that you can listen to 

1700
01:40:39,610 --> 01:40:41,490
until many, many hours. 
So. 

1701
01:40:41,730 --> 01:40:45,490
But of course I look forward to 
the flip side of this and coming

1702
01:40:45,490 --> 01:40:49,050
on Battle Chat to talk to you 
more about Kira, Hannah and 

1703
01:40:49,050 --> 01:40:51,490
Games Workshop and the red 
period and everything. 

1704
01:40:51,490 --> 01:40:53,630
And brilliant. 
Look forward to that mate. 

1705
01:40:53,630 --> 01:40:56,310
So enjoy the rest of your day 
and thanks very much again for 

1706
01:40:56,310 --> 01:40:58,510
your time. 
Thank you very much indeed. 

1707
01:40:58,510 --> 01:41:00,190
Josh, it's been a real pleasure 
talking to you. 

1708
01:41:00,510 --> 01:41:01,750
OK, Henry, thanks. 
Thanks, mate. 

1709
01:41:01,750 --> 01:41:02,190
Take care.