1 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,680 Hello everybody, and welcome to the Crowning Man podcast. 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,560 And today we have a very special deep dive with the guys going 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,000 through the Chaos Army's Warhammer 4th Edition book. 4 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:32,320 And I hope you guys enjoy their huge one hour, 50 minute talk 5 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,640 today. So it's really, really nice of 6 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,120 them to do that for us and provide all this great content 7 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:42,400 for the Crown of Command that I have no involvement with apart 8 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,880 from just editing the editing the recordings. 9 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,760 But it's nice for me to listen to as well to hear their 10 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,800 thoughts and to reminisce about the times of playing Chaos when 11 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,200 all the way back in the day in the mid 90s. 12 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,040 And I hope it brings back some good memories for you. 13 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:06,040 Or maybe if you're preparing your army now, it's a great way 14 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:11,200 to look at some of the different unit profiles and styles and 15 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,080 maybe give you some inspiration before applying your brush to 16 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,240 your cast models in your collection. 17 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:22,160 So just a word on the recording itself. 18 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,080 Unfortunately there were some technical issues with our 19 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:31,320 Goodman Jurgen and he had maybe microphone or Internet problems. 20 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:35,640 So I've done my very best for him and for the recording that 21 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,880 we included the parts that were audible and I unfortunately had 22 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,560 to start cutting out things that weren't audible in the end. 23 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,760 So that's part and parcel of doing this across various parts 24 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,240 of the world with people talking from the UK, the US and Sweden. 25 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:58,160 So, so please bear with us. But again, I wanted to make this 26 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,160 the best audio quality that I could with the limitations that 27 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,640 I have in terms of post production. 28 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,360 And I hope that this will be entertaining for you to have a 29 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,640 listen to and so that you can enjoy another great deep dive. 30 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:14,520 And there'll be more coming. And the guys have already 31 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,240 recorded one. It's in the bag and they're 32 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,560 already planning the next one. So they keep me very busy, 33 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,800 that's for sure. And sorry, it's been a little 34 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,960 while before our last update, but that's because I've been 35 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,000 super busy here in the studio. I'm getting ready to do the next 36 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,560 studio update and get that ready to be recorded and then post it 37 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,960 up hopefully Sunday evening in European time. 38 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,080 And so that you guys can see what I'm working on. 39 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,440 I'm now getting together the armies for the third edition 40 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,360 Fantasy Battle Report that everyone, everyone voted for on 41 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,400 YouTube to say of what battle report they wanted me to play in 42 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,160 April. So we're getting ready for that 43 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,560 and something else and some terrain and other stuff as well 44 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,920 for other videos coming to the channel in the future. 45 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,360 But in terms of the podcast, it's in good hands. 46 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,680 We've got the guys working on some deep dives and I hope to 47 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:19,360 get some other some other interviews lined up for us so in 48 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,200 the not too distant future and so we can have and listen to 49 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,040 other people's perspectives on the hobby from whatever part of 50 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,280 the world they might be from. So in the meantime, guys, I'm 51 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,600 going to leave you to two with the guys here. 52 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:36,680 So that's some Matthias, of course, who's sort of the, the 53 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,360 person organizing and coordinating all these chats. 54 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,880 We have Dave Gilson over in the UK, he's our sort of law master 55 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,360 and he knows all the insurance and outs of all these profiles 56 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,800 and RV books, which is fantastic to get to hear his voice and his 57 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,000 input on it. And we have Jurgen over in 58 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,840 Sweden and we also have Leo. I think that's, I think he's on 59 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,320 holiday or for, for business in the US at the time of this 60 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,640 recording. So I'll leave you 2 guys. 61 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,560 Thank you so much again for hanging in there for hanging in 62 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,560 there for us with this one. And I hope this will make your 63 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,520 commute times or hobby times much better this week. 64 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:21,680 So until next time we talk, enjoy the deep dive with Chaos. 65 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:33,160 All right, so welcome to the hopefully not too chaotic chat 66 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:38,520 about chaos in 4th edition. And in this one, we will 67 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,000 separate it a bit because the what came before is worthy of 68 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,480 the episode of its own. So we will not talk about third 69 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,720 edition. Maybe we will mention it in the 70 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,080 but we will post or someone will post the entire episode about 71 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,520 that. And today we have a new member 72 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:10,480 of the team and chaos expert, and it's my countryman Jorgen. 73 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,240 And perhaps you can start out by talking a little bit about your 74 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,640 entry into the hobby and chaos in particular. 75 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,920 Yeah, sure. I I'm not new to the. 76 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,760 Podcasts I've. Talked to Josh. 77 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:33,400 Before but my entry to Warhammer was when I was 12 years old, way 78 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:40,200 back in 1994, and a friend of mine, he had the 4th edition box 79 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,920 with the high house and the goblins. 80 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,920 He introduced me to the game and then I wanted an army of my own. 81 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:55,440 So I just got to look at the front cover of every army book 82 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,120 and I saw the box with the Chaos night and the warriors around 83 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,000 him and the big thing in the background. 84 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:06,320 And I was like, yeah, this is my army, this is what I'm going to 85 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,400 play. So I started out buying those 86 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:16,680 monopoles, plastics, both warriors and Britain, and I've 87 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,840 been playing caves ever since. It's my main army in every 88 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:26,440 edition I have played. So how how big an army did you 89 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,760 were you able to collect in in 4th edition? 90 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,920 Did you have like massive army or did it grow the addition 91 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,600 points? With 10 models, obviously. 92 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,680 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Points wise is pretty yeah I. 93 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,520 Think there was. Around 3 or 4000 points before 94 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,080 5th edition and then one 5th edition came around. 95 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,000 They released these regiments, if you remember. 96 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,440 With Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights. 97 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:01,320 Plastics, multi part regiments and that's when the army really 98 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:02,720 exploded in. Prince. 99 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:09,720 Yeah, so today I could probably have 25,000 points of Chaos in 100 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,680 Wow. Yeah, that's a good army. 101 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,400 That's a proper Chaoticon, right? 102 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,400 So I'm not an expert on Chaos armies, I have a small one 103 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,280 myself, the 4th edition. But I know that over the 104 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:29,040 editions the way you build an army with chaos has differed a 105 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,040 bit. So how did that work in 4th 106 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:31,720 edition? How? 107 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,400 What kind of limitations and how much could you mix different 108 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,960 gods and so on? How does that work in 4th 109 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,120 edition? Well, you. 110 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,720 Had to have a mortal chaos Lord. As a general, then you had to 111 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,680 have 25% regiments just like most armies. 112 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,040 And the difference with Chaos, I think, was that you could have 113 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,120 up to 50% of demons in your army. 114 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,320 And the stuff like greater demons counted towards that 115 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:09,880 total and not character total. And you could make some marks 116 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,280 freely back and forth edition. But you have to remember that to 117 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,800 be able to take a certain kind of demon, you have to have a 118 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:24,160 character with that mark. And the demons had a a demonic 119 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,440 animosity towards each other. And Dave, what was your 120 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,640 connection to Chaos back in the days? 121 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,360 I know most armies I guess, but yeah. 122 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,400 We had something of most armies. Yeah. 123 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:42,640 Early doors of 4th edition, really. 124 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:49,760 One of my friends, his dad, had some connection to MB games. 125 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,120 We don't know what it was exactly, and it was a long time 126 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,400 ago, so even if you didn't tell us, I can't remember what it was 127 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,040 now. You know, we were kids at the 128 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:07,520 time, but that meant he had rather large battle masters 129 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,640 collection that he would sell models off as well. 130 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,000 It wasn't afraid to be Mercer of what his dad had got him, 131 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,720 obviously. So we picked up some of them 132 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,800 from him. We had a few chaos models from 133 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,520 before that. But mostly to begin with, our 134 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:28,400 army was was kind of was battle Masters Chaos, not really 135 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,200 painted up, just used. And it was before the book came 136 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,960 out. So in some ways less 137 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,400 restrictions, in other ways more so you also had thugs in there 138 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,960 as well. She lost thugs when the book 139 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,440 came out. We kind of took it, you know, 140 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:47,800 sometimes my brother would use it, sometimes I'd use it. 141 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,800 No, Nigel was really Chaos player. 142 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:57,480 So I do remember there was Zinch army that my brother put 143 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:02,800 together using the white box, the white army book that was 144 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,520 just a cardboard army cut out from shoebox card. 145 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:13,600 It's just coloured in not imposing of an army that I've 146 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:19,400 got to be honest. Yeah, exactly. 147 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,400 That was before we got the the the bat master stuff. 148 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,600 And then yeah, the Chaos book was one that surprised you when 149 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,320 it came out because I was kind of prepared for the other books 150 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,880 coming out because they were well publicized. 151 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,960 They were coming. I missed any kind of advertise, 152 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,920 you know, pre warning in White Dwarf that it was coming. 153 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,600 Maybe it wasn't that cover or I don't know, but it kind of just 154 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,520 appeared one month. So was that 94 or 93? 155 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,200 Oh gosh, I can't remember probably 94 I'd thought probably 156 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,000 early 94 I think I think might be wrong in that. 157 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:00,360 And they had the Dwarf versus Chaos back report in White Dwarf 158 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,280 where famously he tried the dwarf player tried to argue that 159 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,880 the power from the sort of change would rebound onto. 160 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,440 To the chaos. General Yeah, no. 161 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,200 Wounds only, not powers of. Of swords. 162 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:22,400 No, good try. So yeah, we we played a bit of 163 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,840 cast, but it wasn't a main army we, you know, which is why I 164 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,920 reached out really to try and see if anyone else was out 165 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:29,040 there. That was a Chaos general, 166 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,680 weren't we? Lucky we struck gold whose main 167 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,440 army who's you know who's a who's a chaos Lord, probably 168 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,120 demon Prince by this point, I would say of of chaos. 169 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,000 So that that's really handy. So this is a rarity on the 170 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,400 podcast. I'm I'm a little bit stumped for 171 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,760 words on it and you'll probably get less out of me and a lot 172 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,800 more of everybody else talking, which is quite. 173 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,640 Yeah, and not me too much. So I guess, you know, again, 174 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,400 we'll have to do a lot of the talking here. 175 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,680 We used to mention a little bit about the white book. 176 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,400 So do you did you use that jargon or did you go straight 177 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:13,240 into the actual army book? The I have read the White Book, 178 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,320 but I have actually never used it for Chaos because and the box 179 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,600 was already released when I started and then back then we 180 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,360 always felt like well this is the official now it has replaced 181 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,120 old ones. So we played the latest thing. 182 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,440 Makes sense. Are you aware of any major 183 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:34,880 differences? So was it. 184 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,640 Yeah, as Dave said, the chaos fogs were gone. 185 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:46,000 And also the option for pink holes to ride on discs of cinch. 186 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:55,000 Can you use that? I'm trying to think back to the 187 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,200 white list now. I think there's a bit more 188 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,120 options character wise in the Chaos book as opposed to the 189 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,480 white list, and maybe some of the creatures in the, you know, 190 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,760 list didn't have character options. 191 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,360 I've got a feeling that was that kind of rough top of my head you 192 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,640 obviously didn't have gameplay wise, you obviously didn't have 193 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,120 the chaos cards. Your spells were massively 194 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,000 restricted. You had four spells per chaos 195 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,000 God from battle Magic because it wasn't into box that came out 196 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,960 that you got the full 10 per race. 197 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,280 So there was that. Chaos armour was only a magic 198 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,480 item you could. So you can only have like I 199 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,880 think I seem to remember that you were allowed to have 200 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,200 multiple chaos armours on his armour. 201 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,760 Sorry, even before the box set, but it was definitely a magic 202 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,680 item. So it took up a slightly magic 203 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,240 item and units couldn't have it. But then the chaos warriors, you 204 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:50,160 gave them heavy armour and shield. 205 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:51,960 You know, they were they were foot slogging badly. 206 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:58,720 You know, same pace as a dwarf. Not great, but that was mainly 207 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,760 yeah, the the the list did flesh it out a little bit. 208 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,280 I I think there's a big miss on I understand why they took thugs 209 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,160 out. They're trying to very much 210 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,480 characterise each army, so chaos was very much a high points cost 211 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,120 elite force. So having thugs that were either 212 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,080 human or just above human level was not something they wanted in 213 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,000 the list at the time. They felt beats men covered that 214 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,600 area and they beats men are funny enough beasts of of a 215 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,600 thing to have to fight. You know, 2 wounds and toughness 216 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:35,280 4, horrendous to have to fight. So yeah, but there there weren't 217 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,320 huge changes between the two lists. 218 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:42,000 It was more in actual what you got to play with outside of the 219 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,960 list itself. So like I said, the extra spells 220 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,240 and the chaos cards got chaos rewards. 221 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,960 Obviously with the box, they weren't a thing before the book. 222 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:50,920 Well, obviously they were in Realms of Chaos. 223 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:57,120 Oh, we just mentioned it, but but they weren't a magic item. 224 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,840 If you like an item to take with the whitelist, you just used 225 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,160 normal magic items. There were no, there was no 226 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,000 chaotic Y, chaotic Y things, if that makes any sense. 227 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,280 Yeah. All right, so the book came out 228 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,800 and let's focus a bit on that one. 229 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,880 So we used to talk about army wide special routes. 230 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:25,240 We talked a little bit about the the animosity and were there any 231 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,400 other special routes? We have gotten a bit into the 232 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,160 only books now, so maybe the specialists are starting to get 233 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,200 more widespread, but. Unique. 234 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,720 Yeah. Obviously at the marks 235 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,520 themselves, they were already there in the White Book. 236 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:42,600 I can't know if there was a change. 237 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,400 There might have been a changeover of what you got for 238 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,360 those. Corn was frenzy and chaos 239 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:55,760 armour. Mark of Tinch was 4 plus natural 240 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,760 dispel. Marcus Lanish was unbreakable, 241 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,520 and The funny thing is that they stayed unbreakable even if the 242 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,320 unit broke so the character could. 243 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,080 Stay on his own. And then you had no shot. 244 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,120 And then you had no shot. Not using Mark you. 245 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,240 There's no one divided. No. 246 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,920 You were, you were kind of. You had to have one of the 247 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,760 marks, yeah. Yeah, they were. 248 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,960 Yeah, I'm trying. To remember there's any change 249 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,600 between what the actual marks did between the White Book and 250 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,760 the the Chaos Book. I don't think there was. 251 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,040 There was certainly a change in later editions as to what the 252 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,400 different marks actually did. Things like they they realized 253 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,760 that plus one toughness was it was quite a powerful, actually 254 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,040 quite powerful. It doesn't feel like quite a 255 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,880 powerful thing, but it actually in game it is. 256 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,360 So they came out to causing fear, wasn't that, didn't they? 257 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,560 But that's later editions, certainly. 258 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:51,440 You're absolutely right. Yeah. 259 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,360 Plus one toughness in force. So what's what's the opinion? 260 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:00,800 Which what were they overpowered or the were anything powers 261 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,040 extra good? Yeah, because you've got very 262 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,880 much Chaos Lords like Toughness 5 anyway, make him Toughness 6 263 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,359 really hard to wound him, let alone do anything else. 264 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:16,800 You know, it's almost kind of putting him up to, you know, 265 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,480 monster levels of toughness. So I don't understand where they 266 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,319 were coming from. Fear can be powerful, obviously, 267 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:25,160 but it's only one model causing the fear. 268 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,720 So it's kind of like the, you know, the screw at the sword. 269 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,840 The the great debate about the the the shrieking blade that, 270 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,920 you know, it actually only causes the character cause for 271 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,600 not the unit, as has been misplayed many a time that it's 272 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,400 the unit. And so it's not quite as 273 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,800 powerful as it seems. So for the extra 15 points, the 274 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,520 drug banner is definitely the better investment. 275 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,600 Character causing theory is nasty, but he doesn't have that 276 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,520 outnumbering thing going on that you know the dread banner does. 277 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,760 So causing fear probably is less powerful than plus one's 278 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,320 toughness, but maybe that's a good tone down. 279 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,720 I don't know, I didn't think else enough to know what. 280 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,000 What would your thoughts be on that? 281 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:15,160 Well, the change to Fear wasn't until 6th edition, Yeah. 282 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:22,480 So if we look at the actual list, what were the options for 283 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,400 characters? Do they have plenty of choice or 284 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,040 how they look in the book? Yeah, so it's obviously you can 285 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,120 have your Chaos Lord and your Chaos Battle Standard battle 286 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:34,640 standard being a hero rather than a champion. 287 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,240 And then you get into Chaos heroes and champions as well. 288 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:41,080 That's pretty OK. They're powerful. 289 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:42,240 That's bogged that same as any of this. 290 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,520 You know, you have heroes, you're champion, you're heroes 291 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,120 and the Champions, but you've always got Beast Man Lord 292 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,040 through the levels, you've got minor tour Lord and down through 293 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,480 the levels, dragon, ogre, Centaur Lords. 294 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,480 So you've got all those can have characters. 295 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,760 And then your Chaos sorcerers, obviously Beast Man sorcerers as 296 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,280 well. So probably other than orcs, 297 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,160 probably orcs on the one that rivals them. 298 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,240 But orcs were laid out. Their list is laid out 299 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,760 differently. So the options are under like 300 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,280 champions. All of them are listed under 301 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,280 champion hero, all listed under heroes. 302 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,120 The Chaos 1 isn't it is spit out. 303 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:18,480 So it feels like there's more, but but yeah, probably less, 304 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,800 less than the Orkin Gobbly one. It just feels like there's more. 305 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,760 That's why it's laid out. Yeah, that's that's that's made 306 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,080 to fill up the book, isn't it? Yeah. 307 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:30,280 That's a choice. It's out the book, yeah. 308 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,720 So which one were the the preferred use? 309 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,040 Was it the chaos Lord or did it go into the more exotic choices 310 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,040 usually? Well the Chaos Lord was by 311 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,400 default your general so you had to have one always. 312 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:53,520 So unless you played really big games it was hard to fit the 313 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,560 other Lords. That's where one there's a 314 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,040 differentiation to the White Book. 315 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,520 The White Book alleges of a Beastman Lord as your general. 316 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,840 But I mean, strictly speaking, you could anyway, because, you 317 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,760 know, if you're playing with your mates, oh, can I use this 318 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,480 as my generally instead? You know, everyone will have 319 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,600 those conversations, I'm sure at some point with that, whichever 320 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,480 army you're playing, you know, playing at low points of value. 321 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,040 Let's use heroes as Lords and you know, that sort of thing. 322 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:18,520 Yeah, well, I'm sure we've all done that. 323 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,400 But yeah, officially with the white. 324 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,320 But you could have a beast man Lord as your general. 325 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,160 So there's there's one strength bat and the thugs are the two 326 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,720 strengths really of the of the white Dwarf book, White Dwarf 327 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,160 white book list. Really. 328 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,600 Yeah. Lured in here. 305 points 329 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,640 minimum cost. Yeah. 330 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,200 I don't think any of the options were exactly cheap. 331 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,640 The characters that's they were certainly powerful. 332 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,960 Yeah, right. So any other of the more the 333 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,400 other choices? Any ideas or thoughts about 334 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,320 those? If you did use them, were they? 335 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,680 Which one were good? If you had a like a dragon Ogle 336 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,800 Lord I suppose that would be insanely powerful, but was it 337 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,440 worth the points? Did you ever try? 338 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,720 Yeah, I tried it in. Very big games, it felt like you 339 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:18,440 had an extra greater demon or dragon or something, and I think 340 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,040 he could have free magic items back then. 341 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,840 The dragon overload, so really nasty. 342 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:35,400 I did often take a dragon over champion with the Heart of the 343 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:45,520 world a nuke Yeah, because you could have units of less than 5 344 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,480 dragon ogres. So you could potentially have a 345 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,440 single dragon ogre and upgrade him to a champion. 346 00:21:52,880 --> 00:22:00,080 It's still pretty hard to kill. I think so, but yeah, so and 347 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,640 well the case. Lord, of course, was good. 348 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:09,520 I really liked him on the on the share it with and yes, Santos 349 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,440 were maybe one of those who I didn't see I think ever in 4th 350 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,920 edition, but there were some. Did they release any models for 351 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,320 Santos K Santos in fourth? Were they all older models? 352 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,600 I believe they were all older. Yeah, well, there was, there was 353 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,720 classic sitter ones that were quite small and then there were 354 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,560 some, I think they were Marauder ones that were released. 355 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,680 Yeah, they were the plastic half plastic ones. 356 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,280 And you know, the classic central warring of that sword 357 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,320 guy with the helmet on that's kind of jumping into people. 358 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,560 He's jumping towards the front of the. 359 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,760 They were that that he was one of them. 360 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,360 There were like a few torsos, not many. 361 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,880 They're quite rare. You don't really see them then. 362 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,200 I mean, I tried looking for the one eBay I don't think any times 363 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,280 recently. But whenever you do that quite 364 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,760 rarely you don't get many of them come up. 365 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,840 So yeah, the older central models not there was nothing in 366 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,240 certainly in fourth released as centaurs and I don't think there 367 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,480 was anything. No, it was nothing until the 368 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,840 Centigor came out, wasn't there or or alternative, you know, 369 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,360 alternative manufacturer. Right. 370 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:33,240 So and we had of course the sources and you could you use 371 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:40,920 Beastman shamans at that point as well, I suppose or yes, the 372 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,280 Beastman shamans didn't get any more. 373 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,520 But the upside was that they could they could actually mix 374 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,520 between which laws they were using. 375 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,760 They weren't like a sorcerer with the Markov chinch. 376 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,320 He obviously had to have the Markov chinch and then use magic 377 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,040 from chinch. But abuse men could actually 378 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,600 draw like one spell from. Chinch Deck and. 379 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,960 Maybe two spells from or something like. 380 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,320 That and talking about magic, if we do that quickly before the 381 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:22,000 break. So what was the Chaosmatic at 382 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,400 the time and was it? Yeah, we talked about we 383 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,760 initially only had the four spells per Lord, but then that 384 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,320 would expand. So how was Chaosmatic? 385 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,720 Well, it wasn't really chaotic. It had some really, really 386 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,880 powerful spells. Not many that had any kind of 387 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:49,400 drawback at all. I remember my favorite. 388 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,200 One was a. Power free spell from Spanish, 389 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:58,880 which would turn any model into a tailspin if the failed 390 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,360 toughness test. Yeah, and I guess yes. 391 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:04,840 You didn't cause any wounds. You didn't have any saves of any 392 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:05,880 kind. Exactly. 393 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,240 It doesn't. 'Cause wounds it doesn't. 394 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,080 You know, kill the mammy just turns it. 395 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,760 Yeah, that's. Fine, you got the one that's 396 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,080 dispelled. Yeah. 397 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,040 So did it feel like they were able to sort of theme the magic 398 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:29,120 for the different powers like you said, did Nergal have like 399 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:31,600 corruption spells and so on? Or did they sort of just 400 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,440 randomly Chuck in some spells or? 401 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:40,200 Mostly, yeah, I think they did. And Nergal was and still is 402 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,160 quite close range spells that there's not a lot of range going 403 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,720 on there. So you've got to get in close 404 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:53,960 slanish more psychological effects and zinch just blowing 405 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,240 things up. And there's a bit more to it 406 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,760 than that, obviously. But but in essence, that was the 407 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,400 kind of distinction. Zinch obviously it was a little 408 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,320 bit tricky as well with blowing things up. 409 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,920 You know, you had a few, you can get extra power and stuff like 410 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,240 that. A bit more subtle, maybe so. 411 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,400 The extremes, probably. There's a few subtle spells 412 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,880 there, and there are literally some. 413 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,960 Just blow things up, yeah. Yeah, and obviously corn doesn't 414 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,920 have any magic, so they are the outsider in this, right. 415 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:30,360 So did you have a yeah, you said your favorite spell, but did you 416 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:34,200 usually prefer one or did you mix in different battles? 417 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,920 I actually prefer the the cinch ones because. 418 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,680 As Dave said, they have a lot of. 419 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:47,520 More ranged attack spells, which I felt was very good with when 420 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,720 you play chaos and you don't have any normal ranged attacks. 421 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,000 So just, I don't recall, but did I know in later editions at 422 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,880 least you could have unit casting spells like horrors. 423 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,400 They could sort of have a spell in the unit. 424 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,400 Was that a thing in 4th edition or 5th? 425 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,080 All demons could castle. Spells except all the core 426 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,640 demons except the blood letters could castle spells. 427 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,960 So did they have like one signature spell that they used? 428 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,640 Could they choose spells? No, they. 429 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,960 Drew. Cards just like a normal spell 430 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,400 castle. Oh nasty. 431 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,120 So they could have a really powerful spell as well to. 432 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,600 One spell level per five models of play, Bearers, horrors or 433 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,640 demonettes. So but what a lot of people make 434 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,320 the mistake of was like, say you had six models that'd only take 435 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,800 one spell. The thought you had to get to 436 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,280 the full 5, so you had to do far, you know. 437 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,400 Oh, OK, so I was 10. We still won. 438 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,440 And that wasn't the case. It was as soon as you went over 439 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,760 the five, you got the extra spell. 440 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,160 So you get 5, you don't get. One. 441 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,160 Yeah, there was a little bit of. Confusion there I seem to 442 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,680 remember back in the day back it's because we were kids and 443 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,840 getting things wrong in that sense, maybe an adult would 444 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,480 correctly. I don't know. 445 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,360 I know why did you later life. Probably still do that. 446 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,920 The Chronicle Man is proud to be sponsored by Scott at Black 447 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,800 Arrow Minis. Scott has a range of second hand 448 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,800 miniatures from several manufacturers which include 449 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,520 Citadel, Grenadier, Real, Partha, Battle Tech and many 450 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,320 more. Collections that I enjoy pouring 451 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,520 over are the old Perry Empire, Ally Morrison's Marauder Dwarves 452 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,120 and the old metal models for Epic Space Marine. 453 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,680 So go take a look today and head over to Scott's website at 454 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:51,120 www.blackarrowminis.com All. Right, so we're back and we will 455 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,000 start looking at the special characters for Chaos. 456 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,240 So did they have a big choice? Were there many options to use 457 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,320 it? Depends who you're comparing it 458 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,360 to. Yeah. 459 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,160 Comparing it to high holds, yeah, they had loads. 460 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,280 Comparing it to one player, not so many, or any other race 461 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,640 really, not so many. They had five. 462 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:24,320 They had You had Mordrek the Damned, who was your generic no 463 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:30,680 chaos gold as it were. Then you had two, two for 464 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,560 disease and two for corn, and nothing for the. 465 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,960 Others. That's uneven. 466 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,160 Well, I think probably they were the two favoured powers at the 467 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:45,960 time, the two the people took. So did you use any of them in in 468 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,960 games you again? Or were you a non special 469 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,720 character kind of guy? No, I used them. 470 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,640 Not in a competitive way, just to try it out. 471 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:07,520 I used, I used egg ring, my horseman, I used echo helbras, I 472 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,640 used scalar, scalar or pronounced it. 473 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:19,920 And I also tried out all the not so undefeated, right. 474 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:26,840 So which was your favorite ones? One of my favorite ones was Eco 475 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,720 Helpers. And we talked about other races, 476 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,960 for example, Empire, the special cases, I mean, they were the 477 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,400 first one they created basically, and they were 478 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,000 basically fairly underwhelming mostly were the chaos ones, were 479 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,280 they overpowered or were they balanced compared to what you 480 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,040 could make on your own, so to speak? 481 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,520 I didn't really use them, so I don't know. 482 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,440 So you what was your take? Do you think they were they were 483 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,960 more powerful or always frozen? No, Yeah, I. 484 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,320 Thought they were weaker, Arbo didn't have any kind of 485 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,560 protection at all. Adrian and those are the two 486 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,160 most expensive characters I really like in Scala. 487 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,960 And Nico, yeah, I, I remember was a cold. 488 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,920 He was the one that sort of created life or something around 489 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:16,800 him. Was that the guy? 490 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,680 Yeah. The breath of life, yeah. 491 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,680 I always thought he was. He was really useful to use 492 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,120 actually. Whenever I saw him in print it 493 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,720 was with Chaos Warriors. I thought bad things was 494 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,680 basement because I've got 2 wounds, so regenerating like the 495 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,240 two wounds, surely that's that's going to be more powerful. 496 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,240 But I suppose you can't worry is more powerful in general. 497 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,600 So just one of them is probably worth 3 beastmen. 498 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,080 I don't know, I always thought you can't with beastmen because 499 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,000 of that because it you know with the extra wound on each of the 500 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,600 beastmen could make for a very annoying roadblock unit. 501 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,760 So and pretty distinctive model. I think it's pretty cool. 502 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,200 Yeah, he. Looks like a corrupted 503 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,560 swordmaster, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah. 504 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,240 Yeah, it kind of looks a bit high open in that sense. 505 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,560 But whether he is or not, who knows? 506 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,200 Who knows? Could have been I. 507 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,640 Do want to pull out because I keep it whenever I look at the 508 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,800 picture. OK so the the the pictures in 509 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,040 the special characters thing and I think it is supposed to be 510 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,040 Igram his picture behind him. I keep seeing the French flag 511 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,280 whenever I look at Igram Van Horseman, that picture because 512 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,320 you've got the dot bit down one side. 513 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,880 I don't know why I think it's the French flag, but it just in 514 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,800 my head I look at that and every time I see that I think the 515 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,000 French flag, I don't. Know why? 516 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,920 Yeah, but it's the gap there that looks like the white stripe 517 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,160 on the French. That's white. 518 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:37,920 It could be italic. Everyone, you know, whichever 519 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,000 one, any ones that are with those stripes. 520 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,000 But just whenever I look at it, my brain just straight goes to 521 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,360 the French. I don't know why. 522 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,160 Just. Some weird reality of me, but 523 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,080 they go now. Now if you see it now, you won't 524 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,360 be able to stop seeing it. So I'm glad of that when they 525 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,520 look at the picture and goes, oh God, yeah, that's that's my 526 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,480 fault. You're now going to see that 527 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,120 every time. Yeah, now you've planted it, you 528 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:07,160 know. Right, so and talking about 529 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,520 special characters, do they have a were they fleshed out with the 530 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,960 stories? That's one of my joys with some 531 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,280 of the other armies. I What's the letter? 532 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,640 I haven't read in too much with the the chaos book, the the 533 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,440 fluff and the background, but was it well written? 534 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,280 Not so much. I don't think they really appear 535 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,160 in the story. I haven't read it in a very long 536 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,520 time. I don't remember them really 537 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,160 appearing in the stories. So not like Tyrion Techlist and 538 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,360 those not like, no, not like. That no, there certainly isn't a 539 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,880 whole rambling fluff thing for them. 540 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,600 They're they're very much here are some special characters 541 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,240 rather than, you know, kind of giving you a rambling story that 542 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,920 gives you a sense of understanding the character and 543 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,040 feeling like you owe, you know, you have some part of their 544 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,280 story. There is no story for them. 545 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,679 They just are there being wrong. It's not a bad way of doing it. 546 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:12,280 It's just a different approach to it, I guess, and probably for 547 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,239 most of the Army books that's how it is. 548 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,040 I don't think there are huge amounts of stories about the 549 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,360 special characters in most of those. 550 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,159 Were kind of an exception. To the rule. 551 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,679 Scaven maybe as well. There weren't really many story 552 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:26,560 why you know, the undead characters. 553 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,600 OK, you had OK for Nagash the counts you had a long history 554 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:34,960 wasn't a story, if that makes sense. 555 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,400 Yeah, it was more with the just factual rather than just a nice 556 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,760 rambling story. Now most of the stories in the 557 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,719 chaos book, as I remember it, are kind of stand alone and 558 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,639 unique and there is obviously there is the ABS and we touched 559 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,880 on it in a previous podcast, the. 560 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,120 Beautiful. I don't know if that's the 561 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,880 right. Word but the very poignant orc 562 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,400 take on chaos where you've got an all law when he's boring OK 563 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,600 yes, he's written funny but but it's actually quite poignant 564 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,680 when you think about it you know orcs love fighting things but 565 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640 not chaos. You know it's different in later 566 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:11,800 years. They kind of make out orcs just 567 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,960 want to scrap anything whereas in in fourth it's kind of you 568 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,720 can sense that you know they want to fight but they want to 569 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,400 live as well they want to live for the next scrap and the next 570 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,360 scrap. This is this is finite. 571 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,800 This is, you know, we're going in to fight and not coming back. 572 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,840 And there's something very, yeah, poignant, tragic and kind 573 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,560 of sad. You thought you thought sad 574 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,560 about orcs. There you can't. 575 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,040 Get that feeling of, you know, all of them are a bit shifty 576 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,160 about going and fighting the cast boys. 577 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,920 It's got that same kind of feel as I don't know if you guys have 578 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,880 watched Blackadder Yeah, the last episode, the proper lot, 579 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,120 not the one they did later on, but the proper last episode of 580 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,520 Blackadder goes forth where they go over the top and. 581 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,680 Kind of got this bravado. Mixed with I don't actually want 582 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,120 to die. And you've seen that realization 583 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,880 that they're going to die and, and the leaders just come on. 584 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,080 We we've just got to do it. We've got no choice. 585 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,880 We have to do it. And you kind of get that same 586 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,360 feeling. It's only a short story. 587 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,360 It's one page, but it's it's very powerful kind of look at 588 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,080 not just because normally you get the human or the elf or the 589 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,400 dwarf take on fighting chaos. It's rare you get another army's 590 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,880 take on fighting chaos and you get it very strongly in that 591 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,440 story. And I just think it serves a 592 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,840 shout, you know, special shout out. 593 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,800 I'm guessing it was a Bill King. It reads a bit like Bill King. 594 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,720 So I'm guessing it was it might be someone imitating him. 595 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,320 I don't know. But no, I just think it's one of 596 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,480 the best things in the whole book. 597 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,520 Actually good. Piece of writing. 598 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,240 Yeah, yeah. And obviously. 599 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:52,360 If you go back to didn't talk about previous editions, but 600 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,080 there is of course a lot of text and a lot of background and also 601 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,760 the the role-playing game. It's a bit about chaos mostly 602 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,400 not from their perspective, but Chaos is certainly very heavily 603 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,400 involved in the going ONS in the in the empire and other parts of 604 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,160 the old world, right. So if you want to dig into that 605 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,240 part, there are certainly plenty to be had. 606 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,880 All right, so any other mentions about these special characters 607 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:25,120 that we haven't talked about? So should we go to the the meat 608 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,720 of the unit of the army, the actual units? 609 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:30,880 I'm, I'm happy to move on to you next year. 610 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,640 Yeah, Yeah, right. So should we just do a quick 611 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,880 take on what the options are? Someone has the book available 612 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,320 to go through them. See Let the Chaos. 613 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,920 Lord. Kick off Yeah, yeah, sure. 614 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,120 And. The very first. 615 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,040 Unit. Is chaos nuts? 616 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,720 And I guess. The. 617 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:56,000 Stats of a normal hero for some other armies, more or less, 618 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,520 yeah. And were they the? 619 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,200 1st to get A1 plus save yes yeah. 620 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:04,760 You could do. With. 621 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,840 Magic items before that, yeah. And they could argue. 622 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,040 But you know, like the banner of. 623 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,680 Shielding, you can get it. And on ball boys, you know, the 624 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,200 Savage ball boys wasn't. If you put the shaman in and he 625 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,440 had the banner of the standard of shielding, yes, you could do 626 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,560 it. But without additional, yeah, 627 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,200 without additional magic items on top of what the allowance was 628 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,440 for the unit. Yeah, they were. 629 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,280 They were. And of course with those. 630 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,320 Tricks. You could get better than one. 631 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,480 You could get 0, maybe even a negative. 632 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:36,840 I don't know. Well, maybe that was only 633 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,400 character you could. Yeah, yeah. 634 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,640 And 4th edition stopped you doing that, Later edition 635 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,000 stopped you doing that. Even if you roll one, it's still 636 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,600 a save, but it just makes you have a negative and it stays at 637 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,360 what it is. But now in fourth. 638 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,440 Yeah, you literally got A1 plus save or better. 639 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,760 Yeah, I remember there was a. But was that the dwarf and the 640 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,080 chaos battle report where the minus or something got stuck on 641 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,760 A1 plus chaos night unit and they couldn't do anything on 642 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,040 them? Long B is when it yeah and well. 643 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,440 They they would have had a strength force, they would have 644 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,520 had a -, 1 to save, but still AT plus save is horrendous to try. 645 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,480 Oh yeah, it's still. You know, very. 646 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,960 Hard but the you know, just I don't know it's it does make 647 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,160 them tanky, but but it is a against them. 648 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,840 What you need is is volume of attacks, isn't it? 649 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,560 Because if you're rolling, if you get at least as long as 650 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,560 there's a -, 1, obviously if there's a -, 1, then if you roll 651 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,080 enough attacks against them, they should fail at least one or 652 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,400 two. And because when you've got one 653 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,600 wound, they're quite brittle once you get through the armour. 654 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,680 Yeah, and of course no. Armour save attacks or medic 655 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,560 would be very bad old for us. Handguns, probably. 656 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,080 One of the best things to use against them. 657 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,280 Yeah, yeah. We'll have a one in. 658 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,840 Three chance of punching through all right, but then of course 659 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,960 they come at the price. So what was the the reasonable 660 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,880 unit size to use? You know, like two 3005. 661 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,520 And they could, of course, have. Marks as well. 662 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,560 So no, no, they couldn't. OK, so you couldn't make them 663 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:22,400 corn at least, and I mean that. That was their way of. 664 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:27,280 Making them dedicated was by putting the banner on them. 665 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,200 Obviously you can only use one banner per power, so you can 666 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,320 only have one unit or too fair enough, 3000 point army in 4000. 667 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,240 You know, in in 4th edition you've probably only got 1 unit 668 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:40,960 of Chaos Nights and one unit of Chaos Warriors anyway, yeah. 669 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,880 We have someone joining us. Yeah, it's Leo. 670 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,080 I met you guys on the on the Facebook. 671 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,880 Yes, yes. Maybe we can just. 672 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,560 Take a few minutes and you could perhaps talk a little bit about 673 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,800 your experience with Chaos in 4th edition if you started back 674 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:00,920 then. Yeah, yeah. 675 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,960 That's, that's when. I started, I started with the 676 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,920 the the the box in like 93 and my first, my first touch with 677 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,920 100 fantasy I was in France. As you can tell, it started with 678 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,160 the white book from the box and I used the minis for battle 679 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,200 masters for many years, same as Dave. 680 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,160 Actually, So yeah, yeah, I, I think a lot of us. 681 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,840 Started this way, right? Little by little after that I I 682 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,440 collected something bigger, I think mainly in the maybe like 683 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:37,040 around I I moved to the UK in 2008 and 2009 and suddenly 684 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,000 hitting minis was much much easier on eBay for for force 685 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,040 edition. So I started collecting some 686 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,960 forces more consequent. 1 then. And then last year I painted a 687 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,640 big Northern army, which was fun. 688 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,520 And I, I tried to do it a bit less peaceful now and a bit more 689 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,120 as a, as a big block. Yeah. 690 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,120 So I painted about 5000 points like track down everything, the 691 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,120 old great and clean 1, the palanquin, all these things. 692 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,440 I played only. Once with it, it was about two 693 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,280 weeks ago. It was really fun. 694 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,600 All right, so maybe an open? Question for everyone. 695 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,440 I don't think we actually talked about that or you mentioned 696 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,240 shortly that they were like, really you like the art you 697 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:21,240 again and that was sort of what caught you. 698 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,480 Yeah. So for for you, Leo, what was it 699 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,440 that got you into chaos? Was it just by chance or was it 700 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,840 a a conscious choice that you really wanted to do so? 701 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,560 I, I, I. Gotta say I've got one of every 702 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,360 army so maybe I'm not the the. Place that's explaining why an. 703 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,400 Army in particular, but the what? 704 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:47,080 I remember my style, yeah. Not of everything, yeah, yeah. 705 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:49,480 Why make exactly? Why? 706 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,320 Make choices. And then when you pick an army, 707 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,920 you just get one of each, right? But I remember very clearly the 708 00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:00,160 artwork from the the books that were in the in the starter box, 709 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:06,960 but the the matrian Smiths and Steven Tapin, I get names right. 710 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,920 So that's that's like I still still have like that from 711 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,760 memories from that. And it created a very powerful 712 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,400 well, I suppose. Excellent SO. 713 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,280 All right. And we were talking about chaos 714 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:30,680 lights possibly I guess the is it the most powerful unit? 715 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,080 Well, most expensive unit. About the most powerful, but 716 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,600 it's only the most expensive. You know, given Chaos arm, you 717 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,400 know, we touched on this. Six points given Chaos armour, 718 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,560 they're 80 points on the model. Units. 719 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,800 Wise, have you talked? About. 720 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,720 Putting a standard in the unit, a lot of it's a big points. 721 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,440 Investment so rarely. More than five I suppose. 722 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,400 Maybe you could use 4 on the the champion or something so you 723 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,480 didn't need to. Well, I suppose it it. 724 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,240 Also depends on the size of game you're playing and who you're. 725 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,360 Do you know what you're playing? I mean if you did a chaos versus 726 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,000 chaos and went silly put you know, 6000 points you'd probably 727 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,960 still be able to fit onto a normal 6 by 4 board but have 728 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,840 have decent sized units. So were you limited? 729 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,200 To one unit at least? Or could you have several? 730 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,280 You have any number. Well, within points limits, 731 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,040 obviously. Yeah, of course. 732 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,480 Yeah. So all right. 733 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,960 And then the the chaos was on foot. 734 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,560 I guess there was that wise identical or how was that? 735 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,920 Yes. Yeah, exactly the same. 736 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,720 Just just foot versions of them obviously, and they will. 737 00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:44,440 Still have a pretty respectable 3 plus if they had chaos armour, 738 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,800 could they have chaos armour? Yeah, yes. 739 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,240 Chaos armour, yeah. You kind of, if you weren't 740 00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:51,480 going Shields, really, you had to go Chaos armour because 741 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,840 otherwise they were crawling along at 3 inches. 742 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,400 Heavy armour, Shields, you know, you'd, you'd be -1 so like, like 743 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,120 kind of like Reichsgard, Matthias, yeah. 744 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:06,280 You know, Yeah, I know those. That that. 745 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,360 Lovely unit that no one uses because they're too too slow, 746 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,120 but I have. Used them and I've actually used 747 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,640 them to some effect, so I don't think they're that bad. 748 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,960 But obviously you you usually can't choose your battles, so 749 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,840 that's a disadvantage. Did you? 750 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,120 Did you? Reduce shadows to Mattheus. 751 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:24,480 No, no I didn't. No. 752 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,680 They were actually attacked by orcs and the orcs just bounced 753 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,160 off. So I yeah, yeah, OK, yeah. 754 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,040 So, so you weren't, you weren't dynamic with them. 755 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,680 There was kind of more of a rock, a hard place for yeah, 756 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,320 yeah, yeah. But still, yeah. 757 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:43,040 They perform. All right, So warriors on foot 758 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,720 and then what? Or maybe I do want to talk about 759 00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:51,520 those a bit more of are they so were they often in your lists? 760 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,800 Leon Jorgen The case was on foot. 761 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:56,720 Yeah, I I think they're so. Emblematic. 762 00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:59,680 You can't really miss them, especially if you want to play 763 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,680 something that feels bit like the realm of chaos. 764 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,000 And I suppose you've talked about that. 765 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,160 The beauty of the 4th edition book is that you have everything 766 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,480 in one army. You have your chaos warrior, you 767 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,800 besman your demon and she's like bunch of different things, but 768 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,520 still somewhat cozy, especially if you just play one chaos code. 769 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,480 So chaos warriors, yes, always, but I just can't find the right 770 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:28,520 size units. 20 if it's too much 1010 not enough and then but 10 771 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,600 is already like 340 points and that's before banner and 772 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,160 everything. So it's it's they're trickier to 773 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,320 play than than you think when you see their start line. 774 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:42,360 What my? Take my cast wasn't these days. 775 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,120 Is that probably a support unit rather than a frontline unit? 776 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,200 So you you would be and then bring. 777 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,720 This chaos worries. In at the side so you can 778 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,480 probably go possibly can go with five because you don't need rank 779 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,200 bonus. So you'd have long lines, maybe 780 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,880 six or seven in in in one line charging into a flat. 781 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,320 It doesn't look particularly great, I admit, and and it feels 782 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,080 a bit dirty, but it's probably the most effective way of using 783 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,120 them because you get their attacks then without needing the 784 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,920 rank bonus because your rank bonus comes from the beast men. 785 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,480 That'd probably be my take these days, but back in the day, yeah, 786 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,520 I would have, especially with the Battle Masters ones, as Leo 787 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:15,800 was mentioning about Battle Masters. 788 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,000 You know, you got those lovely halberd, OK, Monopos, but those 789 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,360 lovely halberd guys. And yeah, you got quite. 790 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:24,520 A few of them in battle. Masters. 791 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,160 So you had at least the unit of 10 or so? 792 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,440 And what were the? Options for equipment, Was it 793 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,040 halberds? Could you use great weapons or? 794 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:33,880 Yeah, they're one of those ones We. 795 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,600 Got halberds, additional hand weapons, double handed weapons, 796 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,080 all that you know, all the all the lovely flavours of of killy 797 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,440 things they could use. Nothing ranged. 798 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,240 And obviously they got you could have Shields with the heavy 799 00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:48,880 armour or chaos armour as well. Slightly less because they're 800 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,600 not mounted to it's Chaos armour at +7 points, but it's still a 801 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,320 bit of a investment. On the 24. 802 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:55,400 Points. They already are. 803 00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:59,640 For for an extra. One point of armour save. 804 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,800 I don't know. I don't know, but it means 805 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,280 you're not. Losing. 806 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:06,160 Yeah, it means you're not losing. 807 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,560 Movement I guess so could combine it with. 808 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,080 Standard of shielding, True. Then you're down to two. 809 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,600 Plus. Very healthy. 810 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,440 For. Infantry. 811 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,400 That's pretty insane. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. 812 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:23,080 So what's next on the list? Beast Men. 813 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:24,920 Beast men. Yes, we talked. 814 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,560 About them a bit insanely difficult to kill toughness for 815 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,640 two but are they do they do anything in battle except not 816 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,120 dying yeah the kids they're. They're good tricks. 817 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,040 You got Weapons Killer 4 and Toughness of Four too? 818 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,680 Well, yes, they're very good. I mean, they're probably. 819 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,360 The strongest units in the infantry units that that's 820 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,240 available, they're not super. Expensive. 10 points OK it's 821 00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:52,200 more than an elf but double the double the woods. 822 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,720 It's it's extremely worth it. Big block 2025 and maybe several 823 00:48:57,720 --> 00:48:59,760 big blocks and they're hard to shift. 824 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,640 Yeah, they're they're. Like the mainstay unit of your 825 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,400 Chaos army, especially going from the. 826 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,400 White Book where? You still had thugs from 827 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,480 previous editions and you lost those obviously in in fifth, 828 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:15,040 they came back in the form of marauders, but in fourth of 829 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,320 using the Chaos Army book and yeah, basically a pretty actual 830 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,600 mainstay unit. There's there's nothing else 831 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,560 that cheap that you would rank up that much. 832 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,040 And and you know, with heroes in them, obviously the hounds and 833 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,760 harpies are almost similar sort of points cost. 834 00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,760 They're, they're still more, you know, at least five points more 835 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,440 each of them. And they're, but they're not 836 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,720 really frontline combat troops, those two. 837 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:40,960 Your. Beastmen are pretty. 838 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,240 Much it. So unless you're playing a very 839 00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:47,440 high points game where you can get lots of warriors, beastmen 840 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,680 are pretty much the the main thing in your army. 841 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,080 Yeah, and I guess. Those who could feel like 20 842 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,920 strong without a problem then. And at that point I suppose 843 00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,240 there was only one flavour of Beast men. 844 00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:02,560 There wasn't the angles and stuff or how do that? 845 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:04,720 No, only one. Type of. 846 00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:08,480 Beast, yeah, but a good one. Angles, yeah. 847 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,080 Angles existed in literature, as it were. 848 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,800 They were. They were spoken about but they 849 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,200 weren't officially anything in fourth and without touching on 850 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,480 Realms of Chaos and as a definitely mentioned there, but 851 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,360 again, there's not much actual game wise about uncles. 852 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,320 It's more just talking about them and you know, fluff and 853 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,360 saying mostly they don't get into combat because they're 854 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,600 considered weak and so they're not even taken into battle. 855 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,160 This is just beast men. Yeah, this is just beast men 856 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,160 generic, you know, it could be anything. 857 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,160 When when the book was released, you still had the marauder beast 858 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,480 men that were that were available to buy, but they but 859 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:50,200 sorry, before the book was released. 860 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,480 Then when the book was released, obviously you had the lovely 861 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,400 Periscope, some of the best beast men, some of the best 862 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,640 beast men ever done ever, ever sculpted. 863 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,760 And they were kind of beast men really for until you got to six 864 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,840 and plastics came out really obviously had the halberdood as 865 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,080 well. You had the halberdood Monopoly 866 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,120 hat plastic you had. Monopoly's Halberds. 867 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,640 And the B and the Battle Masters plastics that were very similar 868 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:18,200 to they're kind of a bridging between the metal marauders and 869 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,200 the Peri ones. They're kind of the hybrid of 870 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,120 the two. You could see the transition of 871 00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,360 beastmen in them. They were very smaller. 872 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,280 Compared to the they were small. Yeah, well, all the law, wasn't 873 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:29,880 it? It was all. 874 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,200 It was all. Slightly smaller scale, the 875 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:37,080 Battle Masters stuff, but you know not, not if you look at it, 876 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,800 you'll see it at a glance. You won't notice the deal. 877 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,440 Yes, yes, yes. Right, so. 878 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,520 We'll move on. What's more, in the choice of 879 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:54,040 basic troops, Chariots. And of course, Chariots, I guess 880 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,000 they were very much glass cannon in 4th edition. 881 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,480 They could quite easily be taken off by any shooting. 882 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,720 Pretty much. But maybe the KS ones were a bit 883 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,720 tougher. Or how did that work? 884 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,080 Yeah, slightly tougher. And they had their KS deets. 885 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,000 With topless 4. The crew could either be 886 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:14,960 warriors or. Beastmen. 887 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,360 But the big thing, in my opinion, was that you could 888 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:23,360 mount characters on the Genius. Demonic. 889 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,160 Beasts, right? Yeah. 890 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:32,760 But characters, so you could create quite nasty combinations 891 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,680 with the Chariots and you know, so was that something you used a 892 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,640 lot to put maybe your general or something or did you use that 893 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,320 possibility? Yes, a lot. 894 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,520 Yeah. Has anyone ever done the 895 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,000 Juggernaut Child's combination I've seen? 896 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,320 It I've never played it played against no same. 897 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:56,080 Same. Same. 898 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,520 There was always like kind kind of a dreamer. 899 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,520 Yes. No ridiculous, but great. 900 00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,400 Did you try Jurgen? No. 901 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,400 I didn't own. Enough juggernauts, right? 902 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,440 Yeah, that sounds insane. I I remember actually, I think I 903 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,920 faced maybe Case once or twice, but Juggernauts in any form was 904 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,480 insanely difficult to kill. So yeah, tough guys. 905 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,160 All right, so what's more in the list? 906 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:27,840 Chaos Hounds. Next. 1. 907 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,400 So what's your? Take on that right. 908 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,840 That right resilience fast talking about the leadership. 909 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,960 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 910 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,400 They're not as good as Harpies for a little bit more price, 911 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,520 right? So if you have the choice, you 912 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,640 take Harpies, but it's still a pretty good unit. 913 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,240 Small small size so. Whether mostly for harassing and 914 00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:58,880 hunting more machines and stuff for fanatics. 915 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,560 Yeah. They got they got high movement. 916 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,760 Well, no and he's 6 actually. They really got movement of 6. 917 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,560 Maybe they're not. Maybe centaurs are better for 918 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,720 like no for for movement. I was thinking. 919 00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:15,200 About the the flesh hounds and I was looking at, I'm looking at 920 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,960 the book in French and the movement for 4th edition was in 921 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,600 centimetres. So I see 15. 922 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,960 I'm like this is great. And then actually now it's six. 923 00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,080 Yeah. That's confusing, but. 924 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:28,680 Exactly. All the. 925 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,240 Measurements in in morehab. For for us. 926 00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:34,000 Are they centimetres? OK, yeah, because I didn't. 927 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:37,800 Like that? Oh yeah, yeah. 928 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,200 Yeah, yeah. We had to learn. 929 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,960 Inches In Sweden it was unusual for us, so never occurred to me 930 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:48,520 that. Yeah, thank you. 931 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,880 I had to learn inches as well because it's it's a apart from 932 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:52,920 war game is. Pretty much in debt. 933 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,360 You buy milk in pints and stuff like that. 934 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,600 So imperial measurements are there in that sense. 935 00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,120 But generally speaking, most things are metric like. 936 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,000 But it's not a completely alien concept. 937 00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,240 I guess if you guys come into it, it's a bit more of an alien 938 00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:08,560 concept, yeah, yeah. I. 939 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,200 Don't think I ever used it in other situations more or less, 940 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,000 but. Then they had a centimetre. 941 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,520 Scene. That's a bit weird, yes. 942 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,520 Well, you know. That was That's not good. 943 00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:21,920 No, I see. That's it for the. 944 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,760 The Chaos Hounds, Flesh hounds. I suppose we'll get to them 945 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:25,240 later. I. 946 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:28,320 Think. The chaos. 947 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,440 Hounds are quite good for flying attacks and stuff like that. 948 00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:34,880 But like you said, before Yogan, at least it was for us. 949 00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,760 I mean, the light cavalry and stuff, we didn't really catch on 950 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,240 the nuances and how to use it. So almost always, you know, oh, 951 00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,680 heavy nights, that's the shit. And those light guys we live in. 952 00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:54,080 Yeah, clearly. OK. 953 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,440 And you mentioned harpies. Were they the same harpies as 954 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,840 Yes? And they were in regiment. 955 00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:04,440 And they're not 0 to one choice 0. 956 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:05,920 No, they weren't. No, you can have. 957 00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:07,760 Loads. Of them, they were in effect a 958 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,000 flying beast man. In effect, they had a slightly 959 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,640 better leadership, but overall they were pretty much a flying 960 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:14,880 business. They had two wounds. 961 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,040 You rank them up, they couldn't have standards, couldn't have 962 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,800 musicians, they couldn't have a champion. 963 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,560 So they weren't so great in that sense, but for for fighting 964 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,080 against artillery because they can rank up. 965 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,760 Oh, hello. Yeah. 966 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:30,680 Or holding up. Shooters. 967 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,440 Like you, you, you charge, you just charge the the the 968 00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,480 shooters, the other army and you can hold them back even if they 969 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,480 don't win the combat. They just keep them tied up. 970 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,480 Yeah, yeah, so could. You fly high with them or do 971 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:46,560 they stop? Yes, yes, and. 972 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,200 They're not very expensive. I mean, 15 point spot for that. 973 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,560 It's it's bargain, yeah. Tough life. 974 00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:58,200 For artillery crew, yeah. Everything else have you? 975 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,480 Have you had to? Be subjected to them a lot, 976 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,160 Matthias, in your and your battles as an Empire general, 977 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,920 with your lovely artillery and your Archers and your cross with 978 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:10,960 your handguns laid out. And you're thinking these are 979 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,160 safe? I'll just shoot your knees, 980 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,360 pieces and harpies up here. Oh God, yeah. 981 00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,200 That's rough. But I didn't face those armies 982 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,400 too often, so not the standard one. 983 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,320 But also of course, flying stuff in general, that was always bad. 984 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,480 You got like one or two shots off and then that was it 985 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,120 probably well. It's it's one of these. 986 00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,800 Units where you have as a as a chaos player to restrict 987 00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,280 yourself a little bit because you could run 456 units of of 988 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,360 five and that's a real Wrecking Ball. 989 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,800 So one, one or two fields acceptable. 990 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,520 More than that, it's just too much. 991 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:46,760 Yeah. Yeah. 992 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,560 Was it? Considered a bit dirty even then 993 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,520 yes, he's he's, he's. Gone back to undead and carrion 994 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,120 again. Yeah, yeah. 995 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:56,400 Exactly. Exactly. 996 00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:57,520 Too many. He's just. 997 00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,440 Dirty or he's too many units and my brother often has an issue 998 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,400 with I'll quite happy to take 2 units of Carrion. 999 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,040 I haven't gone for three yet, but 2 units of Carrion is 1000 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,840 definitely a do it and help. He's I think if you've got the 1001 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:15,760 models then yeah, 2 is probably a good thing, but whether or not 1002 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,600 you've got enough to have two units of 20 flying around, I 1003 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:23,800 doubt it. Or 16 to get that +4. 1004 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,240 All right, so we're coming. Up to the next break, time 1005 00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:35,680 flies. Get. 1006 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,040 Started where we. Left off. 1007 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,280 We talked about the Harpies being great and nasty and 1008 00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:45,240 probably not used in more than one or two units if you want to 1009 00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,800 keep your friends. And so what's next? 1010 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:51,920 The Minotaur monotours? Yeah. 1011 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,240 Yeah. They had some sort of blood, 1012 00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,480 greed or something. They were sort of eating. 1013 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,520 Yeah, they did. They also had the. 1014 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,120 Conundrum of base size with minotours. 1015 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:10,040 Not in later editions, but. In but kind of was it in foot? 1016 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:10,920 It was. Mostly. 1017 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,600 Third, we tried not to do the what came before, aren't we? 1018 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,080 But it has to be touched upon. Mine's all started off on 25 1019 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,080 millimetre bases really. Yeah. 1020 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:21,960 So from 20. 5 millimetre bases. They were supposed to be a 1021 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,800 little bit bigger than an ORC and. 1022 00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,760 The models. Were to start with but they 1023 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:32,920 slowly got bigger and bigger. Kind of kind of mere kind of 1024 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,400 territory we're talking here. Yeah, as in some for me was 1025 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,680 supposed to be 25 and some ended up being 40. 1026 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,520 That was more of a miscommunication on size between 1027 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:44,280 Brian and the sculptors. OK and mine tool suffered a 1028 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:45,680 similar thing. The original mine tools were 1029 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,520 quite small, around 25 and then. Slowly the. 1030 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,240 Models got bigger and end up on 40. 1031 00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,080 I think by 4th they were supposed to be on 40, but 1032 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,400 because there weren't any 4th edition monitor models unless 1033 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,560 she counted the plastics from. Quest. 1034 01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,920 Yeah, and there was another. One wasn't there, I can't 1035 01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:06,680 remember what. One from Quest, one from 1036 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,160 Talisman. There was slightly different. 1037 01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:12,640 One had a club, one had an axe. So unless you used them, you're 1038 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:17,160 using older models, so you. Might well have. 25 millimetre 1039 01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:21,200 base montours who if you took the 25 ones and put them on on 1040 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,520 40s looked a bit small for their bases. 1041 01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,400 Obviously in non competing games, for games for your mates, 1042 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:29,680 whatever size you want, as long as basically you're happy with 1043 01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:31,000 it. But strictly speaking 1044 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,840 especially, it's a 5. So that's kind of where some of 1045 01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,560 that comes from is that they were 20 fives to start with and 1046 01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,160 became 40s at some point between 3rd and 4th. 1047 01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:44,520 What was it like stated officially? 1048 01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,520 Or was it some sort of sliding thing that suddenly happened? 1049 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,640 Or the. 4th never had any official base sizes together. 1050 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,840 There's nothing that snake. This has to be the size of your 1051 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,720 base that really I think you know did that even happen in 1052 01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,480 5th? I'm sure even in your. 5th. 1053 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:01,800 Really. Well, it got Really. 1054 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,560 Official on base sizes because, you know, Tornas had really 1055 01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:06,640 taken off I guess, and so you just had to. 1056 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,800 Look at the sort of official pictures sometime and figure out 1057 01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,520 what they were using I guess. And even then, you know just. 1058 01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:14,440 You know, whatever feels right, yeah. 1059 01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:21,400 OK, so were they popular to use? Did you guys use them in in the 1060 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,080 games? Well, it's funny because I 1061 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:24,480 don't. Find them amazing. 1062 01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,120 They're expensive for what they are. 1063 01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,320 They only have two attacks. But I always. 1064 01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,280 Have a units small unit of three, something like that. 1065 01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,120 It's but because they're emblematic and they look they 1066 01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,600 look cool. I use the first edition models 1067 01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:46,560 fear is mightily useful and they and they, they do some work on 1068 01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,840 the flanks to support like a unit of Bisman or or Chaos 1069 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,600 Warriors. Yeah, I, I, I. 1070 01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,560 Tend to find a useful obviously you can go double handed 1071 01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:58,840 weapons, in which case they're hitting really hard because 1072 01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,360 you've got a strength 6, but generally I think that mantra's 1073 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,680 best thing is is an additional hand weapon so you've got the 1074 01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,280 actual attack you. Then have you know 3. 1075 01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:08,520 Attacks per model that they they, I think they start coming 1076 01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,480 into their own then, but you've still got to be careful as with 1077 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,320 any sort of monstrous, you know, ogres, trolls, all of them, 1078 01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,600 you've really got to be careful of rank bonus, you know. 1079 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,400 More so than cavalry. Almost because they're that much 1080 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,440 wider. So yeah, similar. 1081 01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,440 Similar. For using them as cavalry, you'd 1082 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,960 say yeah they are. Little fragile, it's only 1083 01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,040 toughness for three wounds no save you can them light armour 1084 01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:37,360 but yeah you bothers with. Light armour, yeah. 1085 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,560 Not worth much. OK so a bit flavourful and they 1086 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:46,040 have that better rule but that was was at a disadvantage. 1087 01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,640 I don't remember the blood greed or what it's called. 1088 01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,520 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. 1089 01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:57,040 OK, so what's next if we're moving on Dragon no girls. 1090 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:02,320 Hello. Big boys, Expensive. 1091 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:07,400 Boys, Yes, Yeah. 87. Basic points cost. 1092 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,520 Almost an Empire general. Not quite, but not too. 1093 01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,080 Far. I mean they do have 4 wounds. 1094 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:16,720 Yeah, 4 wounds. Strength. 1095 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:22,240 Of this 5 three attacks, they've got that scaly skin you can give 1096 01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,200 them additional armour on top of it. 1097 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,760 You can give them extra hand weapon kind of the magic 1098 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,560 standard. So they're very expensive. 1099 01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,240 The only weakness I think of the main weakness is their 1100 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,800 leadership of seven or unit like that. 1101 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:40,240 It's it's low, but they have really exceptional characters as 1102 01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,480 well exceptionally expensive. So I think it's a. 1103 01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,360 Unit that works. Well, for very large games and 1104 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,680 you give them a hero Lords and. You've. 1105 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,760 Got something a bit silly, but and. 1106 01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,040 They had something. They were became friends by 1107 01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:00,000 lightning. That's the thing. 1108 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,680 Imports. I seem to recall they were 1109 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:03,600 immune. To lighting. 1110 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:11,000 And did you, you said you pretty much needed a big battle to 1111 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:16,080 field and a number of them that were they standard addition to 1112 01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:20,520 your armies in big battles at least, Yeah, you need a. 5 or 6 1113 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:27,480 in in smaller game in smaller game like 3000 points maybe 1114 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,560 maybe you had two, but it's they do the. 1115 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,760 Same thing as Minotaur. 'S if you do that, you can keep 1116 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:39,200 them on the flank as a support unit and that was, but it's low 1117 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,400 initiative as well too. Yeah, well as. 1118 01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,480 I mentioned when we talked about the characters I also set up. 1119 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,480 OK, Yeah. And I really like the models I 1120 01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:58,080 have one have intended to paint for some time. 1121 01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:02,720 But yeah, I don't know how many different models do they have. 1122 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,200 Was it like two or three or or too? 1123 01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:10,080 Many, yeah, but I think. You could switch weapons and Oh 1124 01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,600 yeah. No, you had different bodies. 1125 01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,080 You had six torsos? Yeah, one. 1126 01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,440 OK. Cool 6I. 1127 01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,120 Thought it was 3. No. 1128 01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,120 OK. Oh, yes, Yeah, there was, yeah. 1129 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:24,800 No, you're right. Yeah, I can see in the in the 1130 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,840 thingy in the catalogue that's had you have in the catalogue 1131 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,760 pages, isn't it? Yeah. 1132 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:32,320 I mean there. Was there was a? 1133 01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:35,400 Prime, one single prime model they released beforehand. 1134 01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:40,880 It was a bit smaller than these guys, but yeah, didn't they? 1135 01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,880 They tended to be a one off modelling an army in a chaos 1136 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,280 army. Those ones back in back. 1137 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:48,400 In the day. Before this, this was when they 1138 01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,080 really became units of dragon Ogas. 1139 01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:54,200 Really. And yeah, they were. 1140 01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,040 They were nasty. I seem to remember there was a 1141 01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:01,600 Dragon Ogre Shaman back in the. Yeah, there was a dragon. 1142 01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,520 Ogre Shame that didn't translate into into 4th. 1143 01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,240 No, you got you got heroes, shamans. 1144 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,640 Yeah, that would be fun. Costing spells. 1145 01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,480 Yeah. So yeah, good looking upon 1146 01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:17,600 themselves. Yeah. 1147 01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,360 Right, so. And I guess they were like you 1148 01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:26,080 said, they were sort of support units, but I guess yes, at least 1149 01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,080 moderate foe they could expect to punch through pretty well. 1150 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:34,640 So I guess they could go toe to toe with quite a few units even 1151 01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:39,160 ranked up maybe if they they do have the attacks to, of course, 1152 01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:40,880 the wounds. Yeah, they've got lots of 1153 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:42,600 attacks. And weapons together 4 as well 1154 01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:46,000 so you know in strength 5. So again, additional hand weapon 1155 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,680 is probably the best choice for them, taking up to four. 1156 01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:50,880 Attacks each charging. Into a unit they'll probably do 1157 01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,880 an awful lot of Ness. I'll. 1158 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:55,000 Have to try them at some point I. 1159 01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,560 Haven't really tried dragon ogres yet so that might be an 1160 01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,800 experience to try, but then it's 90 points. 1161 01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:04,520 And you you might be better off with three or four minotaur 1162 01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:09,320 rather than two Dragon Ogres if you if you play that kind of 1163 01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:12,360 size. OK, Yeah, interesting. 1164 01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:14,920 I think the. Top just five. 1165 01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:19,120 An extra room makes some, yeah, but. 1166 01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:20,840 It it. Makes them almost too good then 1167 01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,040 for support for all or you kind of want them as like Oh yeah no, 1168 01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:25,840 I'd say they were. A front line, yeah. 1169 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:27,920 Or Jesus frontline. You need to. 1170 01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:31,920 Get them to actually go go into bathroom sneaking around, in 1171 01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:34,400 fact. Absolutely, especially given 1172 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:36,880 light. Arms are up to tough to save of 1173 01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:39,600 four. Plus then yeah, you definitely. 1174 01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,680 Put them into without toughness and a good save. 1175 01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:44,160 Yeah, they got going to combat, aren't they? 1176 01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:46,880 Straight away, as soon as you can. 1177 01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:48,360 Well, really. Yep. 1178 01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,480 Yep, lovely. Models, yeah. 1179 01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,920 Interesting. Yes, OK. 1180 01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,040 So what's next? Centaurs. 1181 01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,160 Centaurs. Yeah, talked A. 1182 01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,000 Little bit tough. Those before and then we did. 1183 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,280 Yeah, about the models. There weren't any for 4th any 1184 01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,960 models. There was some released before 1185 01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,240 then. You had Centegos 6th, I think 1186 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:13,440 6th. Yeah, yeah. 1187 01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:17,720 Did they disappear? From the 5th book were they 1188 01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:18,560 even? Were sent to us. 1189 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,040 Even in the 5th book. Nope, they were. 1190 01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:25,680 Gone. So there's no news we got. 1191 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:27,680 They. They got. 1192 01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:30,040 Mounted chasm and Robust instead. 1193 01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:32,080 Yes. Yeah, yeah. 1194 01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:35,880 And. I think could you put both on 1195 01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:39,439 them if you wanted to? Yes, right. 1196 01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:41,840 Now your only. Missile troop in in the book, 1197 01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:43,920 yeah. Yeah, I suppose yes. 1198 01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:49,439 Maybe not. The most effective ones, I guess 1199 01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:54,760 they could, yeah, but they're pretty costly, I suppose for a 1200 01:08:54,760 --> 01:09:00,240 bow to yeah, yeah. And officially if you. 1201 01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,520 Gave them bows, you couldn't give them a champion because. 1202 01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:05,479 Champions have to be on the. Exactly the same as the rest of 1203 01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,319 their unit and Chaos one allowed missile weapons in the 1204 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,640 characters points points what they were allowed to take the 1205 01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,319 equipment so if. You gave missile. 1206 01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:16,760 Weapons, they weren't having a champion. 1207 01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,800 Officially, obviously you would do it and you would probably 1208 01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:23,479 would let you unless they were complete rude word, I would let 1209 01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:24,760 you. But officially, no, you 1210 01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:25,800 couldn't. Yeah. 1211 01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:28,520 And I think. By the way, listeners. 1212 01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:30,319 To see. I never thought about that. 1213 01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:37,279 Yeah, it's the same thing like Outriders can't have Champions 1214 01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:40,040 either because Champions is on the. 1215 01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:42,439 Same way the rest of his regiment, except that he may 1216 01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:43,800 have one magic item. So yeah. 1217 01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:47,319 And then if you look at the the equipment list, they're not 1218 01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:49,040 allowed any of the missile weapon. 1219 01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:53,319 So officially, there was no way to build a champion for a union 1220 01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:56,960 of centres with bones. Interesting. 1221 01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:01,240 Yeah. Again, I'd let them do it if 1222 01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:02,440 they were against me. Yeah, yeah. 1223 01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:04,560 It's not going to. Break anything to have a 1224 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,720 champion inside to you, Dave Sky. 1225 01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:09,360 Era of Nalua. It can. 1226 01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:12,040 Oh yeah. Can you remember? 1227 01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,880 Yeah, but it's. I'm. 1228 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:16,240 Not sure about that one. It's. 1229 01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:19,480 Supposed to be a one shot. You could go for the Bow of 1230 01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:22,400 Toralesi. There's like a 5.1 from 1231 01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,200 Chronicles of War. You go, yeah, that's the one as 1232 01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:26,920 well. I'll have to read. 1233 01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,600 The word, in fact. But that's very false edition. 1234 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:34,160 Right, actually have to read the wording of the magic items too 1235 01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,240 in the. In the sorry. 1236 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:41,520 If you really. Really want. 1237 01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:46,560 To you could perhaps claim the case, get away with it like Dave 1238 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:49,280 said, you know, among friends. I don't think anyone would be 1239 01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,280 horribly upset if you did it anyway and just said, you know, 1240 01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:54,400 give him a vote. And if they are, you've got the 1241 01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:59,720 wrong friends. Yeah, yeah, absolutely right. 1242 01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:04,280 So pretty rare, but yeah. Did you use some deal? 1243 01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:09,200 No, never. There's no meanies and Nope. 1244 01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:11,200 Right? So if anyone. 1245 01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:15,400 Have experience and find the best unit they ever seen. 1246 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:20,280 You know, let's know. But OK, so next song. 1247 01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:21,040 Yeah. Trolls. 1248 01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:23,760 The. Last The last entry in the units 1249 01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:28,480 Trolls. And are they just just trolls? 1250 01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:33,440 They don't have any favours or. Well, in fourth it didn't. 1251 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:35,640 You could use anything at the same cost. 1252 01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,040 So you can either use them as trolls, stone trolls or river 1253 01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:38,960 trolls. Oh, OK. 1254 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:44,920 Use use. Whichever 1 you wanted, Yeah, in 1255 01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,320 actually, it says your army may include any number of trolls on 1256 01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:50,360 which there are. Like. 1257 01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:52,200 Trolls, stone trolls and river trolls. 1258 01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:57,440 OK, so there. Were no chaos troll models in 1259 01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,000 specific ones in force? No or no? 1260 01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:03,520 No rules either. Yeah, it's. 1261 01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:06,600 Just literally trolls and and obviously you. 1262 01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:09,760 They must be in the book somewhere, probably in the B 1263 01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:11,040 street. They've got the rules for the 1264 01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:12,320 other types of trolls, I'm guessing. 1265 01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,040 Yeah, stone trolls are. Yeah, there's a special box on 1266 01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,000 there on in the B street that tells you the different, you 1267 01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,680 know, the stone trolls and river troll rules in the list. 1268 01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,240 It just simply states trolls and they could be only of those 3. 1269 01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,880 Yep. So they are identical to other 1270 01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:29,640 trolls so we don't maybe have to go into that too much. 1271 01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:35,280 But did they fit slots in the the chaos army or where they did 1272 01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:39,400 other things do the same, better or I think I included? 1273 01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:44,600 Them because I had troll models. So they were away bulking. 1274 01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,960 Out the Chaos army, yeah. Not that he really needs bulking 1275 01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,320 out, because. Everything is expensive but but 1276 01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,240 they were and they are quite, you know, trolls are quite 1277 01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:55,200 survivable. They just suffer from 1278 01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,360 leadership. But you know, you could have 1279 01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:59,680 them led by a chaos champion on a steed. 1280 01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:03,560 So why not go for it? You know, it's they're or a 1281 01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,840 wizard or something like that. Or or with zinch you can see him 1282 01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:09,640 on a disc and then you know, have him fly along with them. 1283 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:13,600 No reason not to so well led by a decent character. 1284 01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:15,080 I think trolls are worth it in the chaos. 1285 01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:19,840 I mean, they're survivable. They're not brilliant in combat. 1286 01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,240 But as long as you're not. Running away, you've got a 1287 01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:25,560 decent character leading them with a decent leaders. 1288 01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:27,640 They're not running away from, you know, losing a combat. 1289 01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:29,400 Then they can stick around for quite a while. 1290 01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,800 Obviously you can go for the crown of command. 1291 01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:38,160 Yeah, for, you know, almost indefinitely, especially the 1292 01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:40,240 battle standards. You know, the very expensive 1293 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:42,480 hero Battle Standard is knocking around somewhere. 1294 01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:44,520 Have them led by the battle standard with the crowd of 1295 01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:45,560 command. There you go. 1296 01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:47,280 Yeah, you're not going to move anywhere. 1297 01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:56,360 So the trolls are good you need but the the the the aesthetic in 1298 01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:01,040 false edition felt they they arcs and goblins and when you 1299 01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:03,560 included them in the chaos arm, it just it just felt a bit 1300 01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:06,240 weird. It didn't felt like very chaosy, 1301 01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:10,040 Yeah, I mean. There were some some of that in 1302 01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:12,600 in a lot of armies. I think you could, for example, 1303 01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:17,280 put a vibe on in an Empire army and we felt no working 1304 01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:20,680 government thing, isn't it? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1305 01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:22,600 Well, not not too hard. I could get into. 1306 01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:26,840 You know previous editions but. Trolls certainly were. 1307 01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:30,680 In the Warhammer Army's Chaos list for 3rd. 1308 01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:33,240 They. Appeared. 1309 01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:36,080 I think they they were also in the zinch and the nergalists. 1310 01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:37,960 I don't know. I can't rough top my head if 1311 01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,360 they appeared in the slanish and cool ones from that was a chaos, 1312 01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,000 but certainly they they were in chaos armies at that point. 1313 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:46,600 So it was, you know, they were in both, but I think from. 1314 01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:49,440 Yeah, in, in. Earlier ones, I think there was 1315 01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:51,640 an idea that trolls could be an army in their own right as well. 1316 01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,040 Yeah. So I mean. 1317 01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,240 From from forth and forward. I think they were very closely 1318 01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,120 tied to Orson goblets. They made such a big thing 1319 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:00,760 about. It and didn't really make such a 1320 01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,480 big thing about trolls in a chaos arm if they'd appeared in 1321 01:15:03,480 --> 01:15:05,240 back reports. Exactly. 1322 01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:06,960 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, then you'd have thought 1323 01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,000 they were chaos as well. Yes, yes, yeah. 1324 01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:12,600 And of course. Later, they were actually chaos 1325 01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,600 trolls that were, yeah, exactly if they'd released. 1326 01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:19,000 Models for them yeah as well if they'd released maybe some base 1327 01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:22,120 just just non stone or I mean there were obviously non stone 1328 01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:25,400 Rivertrol models from previous editions if they'd released some 1329 01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:27,920 in force when they. Did the chaos. 1330 01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:29,920 Army people were like, oh, those are chaos trolls. 1331 01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:32,000 Is it all trolls in a chaos army? 1332 01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:34,400 Not chaos trolls as such, but there are trolls in the chaos 1333 01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:37,520 army. So yeah, it's it's they weren't 1334 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:39,560 released at the same time. They were released at the same 1335 01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,480 time as York and Goblin army. So yeah, people are supposed to 1336 01:15:42,480 --> 01:15:44,880 meet them with alls and models, right? 1337 01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:47,480 So. You have a pretty vast choice of 1338 01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:51,520 different sort of that would later call monsters infantry, I 1339 01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:57,160 guess, and I guess you would really include all of them have 1340 01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:01,120 to be a huge battle, but you can certainly add a lot of flavour. 1341 01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:06,440 So if you short summary, which is your favorite of the big boys 1342 01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:10,320 if you have to choose, oh those. Three, you mean? 1343 01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:13,440 Oh yeah, maybe. All the big stuff. 1344 01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:14,480 Yeah. Yeah, OK. 1345 01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:16,280 They'll probably dragon ogles for me. 1346 01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:22,040 Yeah, I think that's fair. Same dragon ogles, but purely on 1347 01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:29,640 their their skulls, their their. Background. 1348 01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:33,080 Story. Yeah, well, from a gaming point 1349 01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:36,920 of view, I think I would maybe take Minotaur's over dragon 1350 01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:39,760 ogles. But the dragon ogles. 1351 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:41,720 Look so much. Cooler, yeah. 1352 01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:44,920 And yo-yo yo. Dragon Ogres. 1353 01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:49,120 Yeah, so. 30 to the dragon ogres. 1354 01:16:49,480 --> 01:16:54,040 Yeah, yeah. OK, so let's go into the 1355 01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:57,760 slightly smaller but still pretty devastating demons. 1356 01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:01,480 I think if we move up the list, yes. 1357 01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:04,720 Who wants to kick off demons? Yes. 1358 01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:07,120 Yeah. I mean corn first. 1359 01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,920 Blood Cell Star. I mean, when I was a kid, this 1360 01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:16,200 this unit was dream. It's like 10s everywhere. 800 1361 01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:18,320 points. Oh yeah, we're talking about 1362 01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:19,600 the. Great, the demons now, Yeah, 1363 01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:20,960 these three wounds, I mean, it's the. 1364 01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:22,680 First entry in the book, right? It's. 1365 01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:27,240 The one that comes first. Yeah, and. 1366 01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:32,760 Of course, that was an absolute monster and like when we were 1367 01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:34,280 the bloods of. Surprise. 1368 01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:40,360 It's just, and of course we were sort of trying to be power 1369 01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:43,240 gamers and everyone's OK. That's the biggest thing in the 1370 01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:44,960 army book. That has to be the best. 1371 01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:50,720 I don't think I actually faced any of them in the in a sort of 1372 01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:52,960 normal battle. We had some sort of mega battle 1373 01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,720 at some point. But yeah, obviously they were 1374 01:17:56,080 --> 01:18:02,920 horrendously powerful and yeah, it would probably much melt 1375 01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:04,480 anything it came into contact with. 1376 01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,560 I guess there were some sneaky ways you could kill it outright 1377 01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:12,520 with the spells and stuff, but in combat it would be difficult 1378 01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:18,320 to do anything because I think he had like D3 wounds as well. 1379 01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,040 Yeah, yeah. So unlike the flesh hounds, it 1380 01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:23,920 doesn't have a color of corn for some reason. 1381 01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:27,200 So it's not protected against spells at all and. 1382 01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:29,560 In the game we played. Like a couple of weeks ago, 1383 01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,880 canogal against cinched. I think it's the bulk of change 1384 01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:37,080 that has that can just kill. Yeah, you're talking it's 1385 01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:41,760 against toughness and yeah, I suppose it's almost 5050 with 1386 01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:45,600 toughness of seven. So you could one shot it and and 1387 01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,400 of course there are cannons that there's also ways to to get rid 1388 01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,480 of it. But yeah, and it's. 1389 01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:54,880 My favorite with Empire, the purple sound, it had a three 1390 01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:58,720 plus to kill it. So there were ways of course, 1391 01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:03,760 but yes, yes, and some blades as well. 1392 01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:05,760 Cross blades. You're getting rid of it. 1393 01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,400 One wound done. Yeah. 1394 01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:09,440 What's? What's happening? 1395 01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:11,320 Yeah. Was. 1396 01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:15,080 Was the way you could either go with a death. 1397 01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:18,480 Rune. Of death something like scarf 1398 01:19:18,480 --> 01:19:20,760 black cameras room where you don't need to worry about 1399 01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,120 wounding scarf scarf or the other I come which way round 1400 01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:26,560 they are but one of them you don't need to route wounding so 1401 01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:27,680 there's that one but. Again, you've also. 1402 01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:29,680 Got a hit? You're gonna have one of those 1403 01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:30,280 two. Rooms, OH. 1404 01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:34,200 Dear. Maybe the hydro blade? 1405 01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:38,880 That against it, but there is a strength as well. 1406 01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:41,440 There is a demon. Slayer sword right? 1407 01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:44,120 But I can't remember if it kills outright or if it's I think it's 1408 01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:46,880 wounds. Automatically or. 1409 01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:51,640 Or or plus 3 + 3 strength standard, isn't it? 1410 01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:52,640 Yeah, and then wounds automatically. 1411 01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:55,960 We've still got a hit that's from with with. 1412 01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:59,160 With. It's really hard. 1413 01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:03,320 So that's yeah. What actually, what is Wolf 1414 01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:04,640 Rooms? Yeah. 1415 01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:09,080 Yeah, and you and you really had to attack first because of the 1416 01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,360 the demons first. You're not going to be doing 1417 01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:14,560 anything. Yeah. 1418 01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:19,120 So that's profit nasty. And the if we talk about the the 1419 01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:22,560 smaller demons as well, the blood letters, I guess they're 1420 01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:27,680 pretty nasty as well. Yeah, 20. 1421 01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:28,800 Points for two. Attacks. 1422 01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:32,080 Weapons Skill 5, Toughness 4. Yeah, 02/3. 1423 01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:34,440 Toughness 3. Yeah. 1424 01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:36,720 These these three. Wounds. 1425 01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:40,480 Four plus demons say yeah, it's they're very. 1426 01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:43,840 Good. I would not put them. 1427 01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:47,240 On Juggernauts. It's a bit. 1428 01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:49,600 Overkill or. It's just as a silly you need 1429 01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:53,600 for a very large game. They are they're. 1430 01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,560 Very solid units. Yeah, yeah. 1431 01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,040 I agree on foot really good, but mounted probably aren't worth 1432 01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:01,840 the points. Yes, no, 90 points. 1433 01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,240 For that, yeah, 20. Points on. 1434 01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:08,440 Foot, you know, we with your OK, it's demonic save, so it can be 1435 01:21:08,440 --> 01:21:11,240 effective. It's still a four plus save to 1436 01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:14,600 begin with, you know, and and doing D3 wounds per hit with a 1437 01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:17,560 you know, strength for web skill of five to attack. 1438 01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:20,480 I think that's pretty good. Infantry, that is, Yes, yes. 1439 01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:24,640 Did they cause fear or no? They were friends? 1440 01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:25,400 Yes. No. 1441 01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:26,360 No. They cause yes. 1442 01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:29,520 OK. Yeah, I can imagine that having. 1443 01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:32,600 Those guys bearing down on you wouldn't be nice. 1444 01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:38,000 All right, so and then were the Flesh Hounds in 4th edition as 1445 01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:39,000 well? Yes. 1446 01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,240 Yeah, well. Very good. 1447 01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:44,480 So they're they're expensive. So it's five points and they 1448 01:21:44,480 --> 01:21:47,680 only have one attack, which is the shame and feels a bit weird, 1449 01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:49,760 especially when you compare them to the chaos hounds. 1450 01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:54,920 But the rest is like they've got their their corn cola on 1451 01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:57,920 translating. Yeah, of corn. 1452 01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:01,120 Yeah. So that was no. 1453 01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:04,640 Magic worked against them or no? Magic weapons no. 1454 01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,640 Spends pretty absolutely. Well. 1455 01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:11,080 You probably only had use. About 5 or 6 of them, or if 1456 01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:13,920 you're, if you're being, if you're being particularly 1457 01:22:13,920 --> 01:22:17,040 flavoursome, you'd have a unit of eight, obviously, because 1458 01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:18,440 sacred numbers. Of the which? 1459 01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,720 Didn't really come into 4th but. Yeah, there was sacred. 1460 01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:28,040 Number and eight was for corn, but really they could be OK. 1461 01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:30,600 They've got a good save and they haven't talked to some 4 but if 1462 01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:33,960 you shoot enough things at them, they will die because they've 1463 01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:38,880 got, you know, OK, yeah, two wounds, but yeah, they're a bit 1464 01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:40,680 more brittle than the blood letters, I'd say. 1465 01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:42,840 I I don't know. Like was there? 1466 01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:45,520 Toughness for two wounds at 4 plus save I. 1467 01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:49,440 I feel they're actually more resilient than they are an 1468 01:22:49,440 --> 01:22:52,240 offensive unit with their single win for 35 points. 1469 01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,040 It's been low, but then if there are two for this price, they 1470 01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:56,600 would be. Yeah, I. 1471 01:22:56,600 --> 01:22:59,520 Just think the 35 points is a high price point for what they 1472 01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:02,400 are. It depends if you're OK, OK, 1473 01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,880 maybe you, you by having them in, your opponent knows you're 1474 01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:07,520 going to have them. You may be informed that 1475 01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:10,120 decision on Wizards. There's that argument. 1476 01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:12,200 So it's kind of a tactical choice in that sense. 1477 01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:17,920 But I don't know 35 points. Is a lot for SO. 1478 01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:20,920 Their features really their movement like their movement 10. 1479 01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:28,680 So that goes really fast and you so so you would want to use them 1480 01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:33,000 as a as a shock unit, but you end up using them as more of a 1481 01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:35,400 like like. Cavalry. 1482 01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:40,080 Support units which might. Not be what they. 1483 01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:42,440 Should be about, but they work well in this form. 1484 01:23:43,400 --> 01:23:46,880 Yeah, and of course. Corn is sort of in your face and 1485 01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:49,920 with fancy and everything, so you basically do. 1486 01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:52,200 They're not too much tactics about them. 1487 01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:54,960 I guess you sort of push them forward and try to hit 1488 01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:56,560 something, don't you think? The. 1489 01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,560 Demons. Frenzy, So you kind of don't 1490 01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:00,920 have that defence. You can use frenzy. 1491 01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:04,960 Against people. They don't so so. 1492 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,960 In in that sense, they're probably better than having a 1493 01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:09,200 unit of warriors with the org Knights. 1494 01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:12,040 With the banner. Yeah, they're they're probably 1495 01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:15,240 better in that sense because the opponent has said can't use 1496 01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:17,400 them. Use your frenzy against you. 1497 01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:21,080 With them they can just. Yeah, they're they're they're 1498 01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:25,120 good choice of demon overall. I think, you know, when you're 1499 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:28,000 looking at the kinds of demons there are core ones, they're 1500 01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:30,760 pretty simple, G's point and click and they do what you want 1501 01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,920 them to do pretty much. So yeah, good stuff. 1502 01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,960 Do you have any experiences, Yogan? 1503 01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:41,600 Did you use the chaos demons frequently? 1504 01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:46,040 Yeah, I have used the flash arms a lot. 1505 01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:48,000 See what's? Next in the. 1506 01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:52,720 Demon lists we have Nergal. Nergal. 1507 01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:57,960 We have, of course, the big boy. Yeah, with his 10 wounds. 1508 01:24:58,240 --> 01:24:59,480 Yes, 10 wounds. Office. 1509 01:24:59,480 --> 01:25:02,320 Of eight. Very, very fast DC. 1510 01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:05,600 Yeah, he waddles. Along with the rest of the army, 1511 01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:07,200 yeah. So I. 1512 01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:12,400 Guess it would be more difficult to get sort of his points back 1513 01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:15,200 if the enemy didn't want to. Yes, he's very characterful. 1514 01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:19,920 He's what I was. Very characterful, but you know, 1515 01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:23,080 I like Leo. You had one, didn't you, in that 1516 01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:25,000 battle you played? Yeah, yeah. 1517 01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:29,360 And he had the, he had the duel with the Lord of Change. 1518 01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:34,320 Obviously the Lord of Change charged and you can see the 1519 01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,880 difference. It's maybe a bit tougher in 1520 01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:39,600 combat than he has an extra attack compared to the load of 1521 01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:44,000 change extra toughness. So he he. 1522 01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:45,880 They were grinding at each other. 1523 01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:49,520 But the the the great and clean one that slightly the upper 1524 01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:51,640 hand. I. 1525 01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:54,360 Discovered or rediscovered a bit of noggin magic. 1526 01:25:55,840 --> 01:25:58,440 There was some interesting spells in our country called 1527 01:25:58,440 --> 01:26:02,520 them exactly, but it's it's quite short ranged, but it's 1528 01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:07,320 there's some good stuff like halving everyone. 1529 01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:11,600 Within 6. Inches stats unless you're a no 1530 01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,560 girl champion. So that was interesting. 1531 01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:17,720 Some of the movements table and that that's that's a feature 1532 01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:24,000 across the Nogal army the the cavalry the the piece of Nogal 1533 01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,320 as movement of three yeah and I. I must say, I really love the 1534 01:26:28,320 --> 01:26:31,160 Beasts of Nogal. I think they are absolutely 1535 01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:34,560 adorable units and when they write about them, there's like 1536 01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:38,360 huge deadly puppies. They just want to play with the 1537 01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:40,720 enemy or they don't see them as enemies. 1538 01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:44,080 I see them as potential friends and then they slobber all over 1539 01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:48,120 them and they die and they become disappointed and look for 1540 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,400 new friends. Why? 1541 01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:53,880 Do you? Move three inches. 1542 01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,120 Yeah. Or six if they you know. 1543 01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:00,840 It's not the fastest cavalry going, is it? 1544 01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:02,440 Slower than infantry? Yeah. 1545 01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:03,320 Oh yeah. And. 1546 01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:05,600 And. Like a little aside with the, 1547 01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:09,080 the palanquin rules, which I, because the model is so lovely, 1548 01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:13,840 I, I, I want to use it, but they, they released some rules 1549 01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:18,560 in Citadel journal and they treated as a child with movement 1550 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:21,440 4. So it means that can't March, 1551 01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:24,480 obviously. And then they did another 1552 01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:30,640 Persian in in. 5th. Edition against the journal and 1553 01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:35,840 this time you can move 6 which is a slight progress, but again 1554 01:27:35,840 --> 01:27:37,560 like this army will not go anywhere. 1555 01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:40,560 Yeah, I've always. Considered. 1556 01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:44,800 Using it as a possibly a demonic steed, but then movement 8 feels 1557 01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:49,520 a bit too fast by the nagging. On acid or something you know 1558 01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:56,120 and and just a base of. Nerglings feels a bit weak as a 1559 01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:00,640 mount, so yeah, I almost like Nergal. 1560 01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:05,800 I think it's it's a very, it's sort of slightly comedic maybe, 1561 01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:09,520 but it's the. Least. 1562 01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:11,600 Serious of all the kills Gods, yeah. 1563 01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,320 And he's. Basically a, you know, really 1564 01:28:14,320 --> 01:28:20,320 jovial guy and yeah, I mean, he just wanted with. 1565 01:28:20,320 --> 01:28:24,360 Friends to. Become affected by pet stones 1566 01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:26,760 and stuff. So yeah, good times for 1567 01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:30,320 everyone, yeah. And. 1568 01:28:30,440 --> 01:28:33,400 Of course you have the plague bearers, the Yeah. 1569 01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:36,120 So what's your take on? Them. 1570 01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:39,320 Yeah, I really like Plague. Bearers, I've got a I've got a 1571 01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:41,720 load of 4th edition ones I need to get painted up sometime, but 1572 01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:43,840 also got some Realms of Chaos ones. 1573 01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:46,680 So prior ones, decent size. You know, they're not used them 1574 01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:48,080 often, but I just like the models. 1575 01:28:48,440 --> 01:28:50,960 Yeah, I think there are there. Are a whole lot of unique 1576 01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:54,160 models, right? They have a bunch of choices you 1577 01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:57,440 can make pretty much 20 strong and not too. 1578 01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:00,600 Yeah, absolutely. Just just wonderful, wonderful 1579 01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:05,720 models, very characterful. And the -1 to hit is, you know, 1580 01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:08,840 that's, that's fantastically useful. 1581 01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:11,360 Yeah. Yeah, they've got. 1582 01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:17,360 Plague swords as well, which auto kill on 4 plus that's 1583 01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:20,800 that's dynasty. And so the the problem with a 1584 01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:24,000 lot of the chaos minor demons is the magic. 1585 01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:27,480 So if you want to run many units, you end up with many 1586 01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:32,960 spellcasters. So I tend to play them to house 1587 01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:36,800 rule them to cost 20 points and not have spells because 1588 01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:41,600 otherwise you just spend your your games during the magic 1589 01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:42,560 phase. Yeah. 1590 01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:45,960 So yes. I I don't remember but how did 1591 01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:50,160 it work with? Like you have escape cards and 1592 01:29:50,160 --> 01:29:54,000 stuff for when when you use the unit to cuss the spell. 1593 01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,440 How did that work? I mean, I suppose you can use. 1594 01:29:56,520 --> 01:29:59,960 Escape on one plague belt? That might not be worth it. 1595 01:30:00,440 --> 01:30:02,360 Yeah, the. Entire unit pops. 1596 01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:08,320 That would have been weird. And and and they can. 1597 01:30:08,480 --> 01:30:11,320 Pop plague belts can ride Beast of Nogal which makes it. 1598 01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:16,560 Creepy. Along. 1599 01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:19,160 Yeah. That's. 1600 01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:22,720 Yeah, cool, but maybe not very practical. 1601 01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:29,160 Yeah. OK. 1602 01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:32,800 So we're back. For perhaps the final 40 minute 1603 01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:37,520 session here and we had almost finished knurgle, but we had the 1604 01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:40,840 little guys left and maybe we should give them a few minutes 1605 01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:42,360 at least. The Knurlings. 1606 01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:45,560 Little Slimers. Yeah, very cool. 1607 01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:47,920 Also. I love those images with the 1608 01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:53,600 knurglies crawling all of the the Great Unclean One eating his 1609 01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:56,160 stuff. Yeah, pretty disgusting. 1610 01:30:56,360 --> 01:31:02,560 But are they useful in combat? Not hugely. 1611 01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:05,760 But you're going to take them anyway because they look so cute 1612 01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:09,520 and cool, so. Everyone will will have. 1613 01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:12,400 A couple of units of them, yeah. So how do they? 1614 01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:16,080 Function, are they like swarms or are they more of a normal 1615 01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:19,920 units or no they? Can run away. 1616 01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:23,040 They have a leadership 7 for some reasons big lower than 1617 01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:25,000 everyone else. They've got their demonic save, 1618 01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:26,760 OK. They cause fear, OK. 1619 01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:30,880 So I don't. Know 33 bases on each end of 1620 01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,400 your army, something like that. That's that's about what they're 1621 01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:35,880 good for, yeah. I'd agree on. 1622 01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:38,200 That one they're they're characterful, but not 1623 01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:44,000 necessarily useful. So that's farmed, but. 1624 01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:45,880 Not. Competitive. 1625 01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:49,360 Yeah, I think that's the. That's not good for you. 1626 01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:55,040 Yeah, I kind of think. Of of people seeing Ghostbusters 1627 01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:57,920 afterlife we've got. The Stay puft. 1628 01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:00,160 Little marshmallow men, The tiny ones. 1629 01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:02,960 Oh yeah. Yeah, that's kind of. 1630 01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:05,120 What they are, isn't it? They're, they've got little, 1631 01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:07,960 little children mucking about with each other, probably doing 1632 01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:11,320 horrendous things to each other, but just this is fun. 1633 01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:15,640 That's yeah, they're, yeah. They're a comedy unit if 1634 01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:18,960 anything. We, we, we haven't really. 1635 01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:21,680 Talked about the Beast in more details, but they're also 1636 01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:24,280 horribly expensive and horribly inefficient. 1637 01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:26,560 Yeah. But they're not. 1638 01:32:26,560 --> 01:32:29,560 Going to die severely. So they're probably no, but 1639 01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:30,480 they're not. They're not going to. 1640 01:32:30,480 --> 01:32:34,320 Slowly do their. Thing, but yeah. 1641 01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:39,960 Yeah, yeah, if you. Can sort of transport them into 1642 01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:44,040 combat maybe that would be nice. But yeah, so if you won't, 1643 01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:45,920 doesn't have any displacement spams. 1644 01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:49,760 No, but you can. Get around that in various ways. 1645 01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:54,280 We'll just. Say that in the book. 1646 01:32:57,080 --> 01:33:00,440 Really. All right, so let's move on to 1647 01:33:00,440 --> 01:33:06,440 one of the final 2 powers. Yeah, Zinch is up next. 1648 01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:10,200 Zinch yes. They change your ways. 1649 01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:13,080 Yeah, he's. He's. 1650 01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:16,400 Kind of he's my. Main how I like also like noodle 1651 01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:19,040 as well, but also like zinch. So they're the two kind of. 1652 01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:23,840 Gods that I have troops. For I've got some slanish as 1653 01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:26,320 well, little smattering, but it's mainly zinch. 1654 01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:29,200 I just love the disc riders for zinch. 1655 01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:32,680 You know the the as a beast. The disc is fantastic because 1656 01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:36,240 it's yeah, cheap flying, really cheap flying. 1657 01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:39,600 Just got to be careful as people don't because the only issue 1658 01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,320 with with the disc is I do believe that someone can kill 1659 01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:44,600 the beast out from underneath you. 1660 01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:47,040 I'm not sure about that one. Can you check it as? 1661 01:33:47,560 --> 01:33:48,520 A No. The cavalry, yeah. 1662 01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:51,560 The the their mouths and the mouse. 1663 01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:53,000 OK, so you can't that's. OK then. 1664 01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:56,480 OK, that that problem goes away. The the need for a parachute 1665 01:33:56,480 --> 01:33:57,640 goes away. That's that's. 1666 01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:03,000 They're nice and cheap. And the models actually, you 1667 01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:05,320 know, they're just really cool with the thought of them 1668 01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:09,200 running, you know, this flying around on, on a, on a demon 1669 01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:12,640 disc. It's coming through the air and 1670 01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:14,880 so. On yeah, yeah, it feels. 1671 01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:17,240 Pretty original. I don't know, maybe they had 1672 01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:19,080 some inspiration from somewhere, of course. 1673 01:34:19,080 --> 01:34:24,160 But yeah, they're definitely iconic and they survived through 1674 01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:27,760 the editions, I guess. So I'm still around in some way. 1675 01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:29,400 What's? What's really? 1676 01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:33,800 Missing from this this army book is chaos nights on, demonic 1677 01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:36,840 steals on on. Discussed. 1678 01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:39,400 Steinch would look would be a bit mean, arguably. 1679 01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:43,360 Very cool, yeah. Can you have? 1680 01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:50,240 A chariot with the discs No yes, can you oh so yes for characters 1681 01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:51,880 for. Characters, but characters you 1682 01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:53,600 can. Does it fly or not? 1683 01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:54,240 I don't. Think so? 1684 01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:56,720 It does fly, but. It can't fly hard. 1685 01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:58,600 Right. And. 1686 01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:02,160 The demon himself, is he compared to the other greater 1687 01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:04,200 demons? Oh, does he? 1688 01:35:04,840 --> 01:35:07,120 So it's funny because. It's the least flavorful. 1689 01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:09,920 It doesn't have any special role. 1690 01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:12,560 He's also a cheapest. Isn't he? 1691 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:16,280 Or always cheapest. Yeah, he's by 50 points. 1692 01:35:16,280 --> 01:35:19,160 He's he's the cheapest unless you include the great the. 1693 01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:25,640 Scavenge. Yeah, but in the book, yeah, 1694 01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:28,520 he's he's. Cheapest of the four I. 1695 01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:30,560 Like him that. I like his inks then. 1696 01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:37,240 All right. And so maybe not too much to say 1697 01:35:37,240 --> 01:35:40,360 about the a greater demon compared to the other ones, but 1698 01:35:40,440 --> 01:35:41,640 I mean, it's still a greater demon. 1699 01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:45,840 So it's still a a monster in combat and it's I guess level 4 1700 01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:48,280 cost and and and tinch. Magic. 1701 01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:50,520 Which is nastier? Yeah. 1702 01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:52,960 So that. Was the ones who had the. 1703 01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:56,200 Bolt of change, is it the I would you get it? 1704 01:35:56,480 --> 01:35:58,160 Yeah, yeah. Yes. 1705 01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:02,040 Right. And then the troops, the 1706 01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:06,000 flavours, I guess, horrors. The most, well, horrors are the 1707 01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:11,240 most expensive fiscally, in real terms, are the most expensive 1708 01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:13,600 demons you're going to get because you've got to pay for 1709 01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:16,360 three models per one. You've got to buy them. 1710 01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:17,240 You've got physically, you've got. 1711 01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:18,560 To buy blue. Oh, OK. 1712 01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:21,480 Yeah, you mean that? Yeah, yeah, Blue Blue Horror as 1713 01:36:21,480 --> 01:36:24,000 well as your. Pink horror to work. 1714 01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:27,120 So yeah, especially these real. Firms. 1715 01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:28,880 They are the most expensive. Demon, you're going to buy. 1716 01:36:30,280 --> 01:36:33,000 And obviously the Blue Demons must have any cheaper than the 1717 01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:35,120 the other ones. I suppose so. 1718 01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:38,360 Yeah, of course not. Yeah. 1719 01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:42,000 And I guess you would almost always end up with a mixed 1720 01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:45,520 units, you would have both in one if they took any casualties. 1721 01:36:46,480 --> 01:36:49,360 So yeah, pretty unique route I guess. 1722 01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:53,080 Just basically so so fun. It was. 1723 01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:55,880 It was. It's really fun to play them or 1724 01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:57,440 to play against them. Yeah. 1725 01:36:57,680 --> 01:36:58,600 And you? Couldn't. 1726 01:36:58,600 --> 01:37:01,800 It's a challenge you never. You know you can't buy them on 1727 01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:03,680 their own, but it's a challenge you you never face. 1728 01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:07,760 Like as as you fight your enemy gets more numerous. 1729 01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:10,160 You don't. Get that anywhere. 1730 01:37:10,160 --> 01:37:13,400 Else in the game so it's it's it's fun yeah if. 1731 01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:14,760 Your opponent. Doesn't know about it. 1732 01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:16,680 It's a very nasty surprise. I should. 1733 01:37:18,120 --> 01:37:21,520 What you're not taking away. You're adding. 1734 01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:26,000 Yeah, that's. A big surprise. 1735 01:37:26,480 --> 01:37:29,560 And are they good? Compared to the other demons, 1736 01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:33,160 Pink horrors are pretty good. Blue horrors? 1737 01:37:33,160 --> 01:37:36,040 Not as much, no. But I guess they're supposed to 1738 01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:39,520 be, you know, yeah, too good. But that would have been awful 1739 01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:41,600 if they actually became better when they died. 1740 01:37:42,480 --> 01:37:45,200 Can't that be horrendous? No, they have been as far. 1741 01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:47,800 As Mike in skill 5. You know, strength 4, that's 1742 01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:50,360 pretty good. Only time necessary 2 attacks 1743 01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:52,520 still, so they're pretty good. They don't get. 1744 01:37:52,520 --> 01:37:55,560 The same they don't get the same No, they don't you're right 1745 01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:56,600 they. Don't get that one excited. 1746 01:37:57,200 --> 01:38:01,640 Yeah, that makes a difference. And like deals or demons, at 1747 01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:04,840 least when I play them. 10 points cheaper Novagic. 1748 01:38:06,760 --> 01:38:09,680 But I guess also. They compared to the the blood 1749 01:38:09,680 --> 01:38:12,080 letters on the platelets. They don't have any medic 1750 01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:14,960 weapons or anything. No maybe medical tax, but yeah, 1751 01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:16,600 right. Agree. 1752 01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:22,560 So Yep. So definitely a unique unit with 1753 01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:25,000 a unique feature. That's right. 1754 01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:28,080 So we have some other sense, yeah. 1755 01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:30,120 What the? Flavours. 1756 01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:35,080 Yeah. Almost like a mini war machine. 1757 01:38:35,080 --> 01:38:37,040 If I remember correctly they're quite nasty answer. 1758 01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:39,920 Is that the best? Demon units, probably. 1759 01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:45,800 Yeah, it's my favorite. I would say the best. 1760 01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:49,440 Yeah, yeah. Because I think they, they're 1761 01:38:49,440 --> 01:38:51,840 not horrible in close combat either. 1762 01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:54,320 And they I know that's two attacks. 1763 01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:57,680 Strings five more. They've got weapons history, but 1764 01:38:57,680 --> 01:39:00,480 they move 9, yeah. Then they. 1765 01:39:00,480 --> 01:39:05,240 Can shoot and. When they shoot D6 hits, yeah, 1766 01:39:05,480 --> 01:39:10,720 it it's unbelievable yeah and and and strengths 5 and they 1767 01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,200 cause these three and they cause these three wounds on top of Oh 1768 01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:15,480 yeah yeah that's. Absolutely horrible there. 1769 01:39:15,480 --> 01:39:16,960 I mean, they're going to melt them away. 1770 01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:20,200 Pretty much any monster or anything they face unless they 1771 01:39:20,200 --> 01:39:23,240 have really high toughness. So you you give. 1772 01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:28,720 Them you give them a hero or champion or without them 1773 01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:31,440 discussed since to help them a little bit, yeah. 1774 01:39:32,160 --> 01:39:35,480 So if you face them, it's going to be a priority to try to shoot 1775 01:39:35,480 --> 01:39:39,360 them off the ball. I guess if you were able, if you 1776 01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:40,880 can, you should. Yeah. 1777 01:39:42,080 --> 01:39:46,360 Definitely not expensive 50. Points ahead, yeah, And that's 1778 01:39:46,440 --> 01:39:48,440 they're. Very fast as well. 1779 01:39:48,440 --> 01:39:52,080 So yeah, they've got to be in your face and. 1780 01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:57,480 They can go for obstacles, leap. Leap over. 1781 01:39:57,520 --> 01:39:58,440 Anything. Yeah. 1782 01:39:59,360 --> 01:40:01,200 Right. So yeah. 1783 01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:06,560 And how long do they shoot the shooting attack or what's the 1784 01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:08,400 range? Only 6 inches? 1785 01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:09,920 Oh yeah. Yeah, at. 1786 01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:13,120 Least one limitation on them, but still going to be very 1787 01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:15,320 nasty. So how do you use them? 1788 01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:18,560 Do you use them for shooting or do you get in? 1789 01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:21,040 But that's the beauty of it. You can. 1790 01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:24,000 Use them for anything so you can have relatively small units. 1791 01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:25,640 They're resilient. Just five. 1792 01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:28,480 We do a lot of work. They. 1793 01:40:28,480 --> 01:40:32,400 Can charge they. Can harass, they can flank, they 1794 01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:36,760 can do anything. You can hunt cocktails and party 1795 01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:40,320 areas. Are they 0 to one choice or can 1796 01:40:40,320 --> 01:40:42,600 you have several units? No, you. 1797 01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:43,720 Can have several as. Many. 1798 01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:45,960 As you want. There's no, I'm just looking, 1799 01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:49,280 but there's no 0 to one in the army book at all, OK. 1800 01:40:50,440 --> 01:40:54,160 Right, so 5050. Percent of your army, isn't it 1801 01:40:54,160 --> 01:40:56,280 so? If you want to take all your 50% 1802 01:40:56,280 --> 01:40:59,040 as flamers, you can do that, yeah. 1803 01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:07,520 But yes, I think so definitely. Borderline Gnostic or way across 1804 01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:11,800 the border, I suppose. All right, so if you want to 1805 01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:16,320 have a versatile and really nasty unit, flamers could be the 1806 01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:20,200 way to go. All right, so is that it for 1807 01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:21,880 sense or do they have anything else? 1808 01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:23,800 No, that's it. Yep. 1809 01:41:26,240 --> 01:41:29,120 OK, so let's move on to the final one. 1810 01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:34,360 The slanish, the rude. Dude. 1811 01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:38,200 Rude dude, Yeah. And. 1812 01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:44,920 Yeah, I guess DWS treated that a bit differently over time. 1813 01:41:45,440 --> 01:41:49,880 Maybe earlier it was more outright naughty and maybe they 1814 01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:53,000 washed, washed that up a little bit later. 1815 01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:57,720 A little bit, yeah. But yeah, it was still about 1816 01:41:57,720 --> 01:41:59,320 pleasure, I guess in the 4th edition. 1817 01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:03,320 So. So we have we start off with the 1818 01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:04,800 greater demon like the other ones. 1819 01:42:05,960 --> 01:42:09,800 So what's her thing? Or her, her and he's. 1820 01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:14,840 It's mixed, I suppose. Pronoun time. 1821 01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:19,200 It's a solid demon. It's a solid great demon. 1822 01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:23,000 It's it's not the best, it's not the worst. 1823 01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:25,400 It's it's just a solid great demon. 1824 01:42:25,400 --> 01:42:28,440 Does a, does a good job, not particularly fast, but he's not 1825 01:42:28,440 --> 01:42:30,720 slow. He's got movement at six, but 1826 01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:33,960 overall it's certainly not the worst great demon going at all. 1827 01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:37,440 Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's funny because the 1828 01:42:37,440 --> 01:42:41,080 lot of changes is cheaper, but can't fly and I think flying 1829 01:42:41,080 --> 01:42:43,720 makes such a difference. And obviously for the blood 1830 01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:47,080 source to even more this one movement 6, you can you can 1831 01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:52,560 avoid it, right and. Some sort of special rule, 1832 01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:54,440 right? Yeah, it's got a lot of. 1833 01:42:54,760 --> 01:42:57,800 Spanish. So you need to test under your 1834 01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:02,200 leadership to be able to attack. It could be good. 1835 01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:05,960 If you're lucky, yeah. Unlucky though, yeah. 1836 01:43:06,160 --> 01:43:10,600 And slavish magic. What's How is that compared to 1837 01:43:10,920 --> 01:43:15,440 country? Quite strong if you have the 1838 01:43:15,440 --> 01:43:18,440 right space. Yeah, the demonets are. 1839 01:43:18,480 --> 01:43:24,080 Next, Yeah. So what's your take on them? 1840 01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:27,480 There are. Weapons kill seeks 3 attacks 1841 01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:30,560 they're. They're as fragile. 1842 01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:32,200 As the. Plague bells and. 1843 01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:37,240 The blood letters but. They they can do more damage. 1844 01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:39,880 They don't have any special rules for their weapons, but 1845 01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:43,240 like these three attacks are really, really good and I and I 1846 01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:47,840 think it's the only demon units that's worth putting on on 1847 01:43:47,880 --> 01:43:51,520 steeds because the steeds are incredible as well. 1848 01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:56,840 Yes movement. 12. I agree, yeah. 1849 01:43:57,280 --> 01:44:01,880 That's pretty insane moment. It's at the highest in the game 1850 01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:05,240 for ground moving. Could be. 1851 01:44:06,040 --> 01:44:07,040 Yeah, I think it. Is. 1852 01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:10,440 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's also bargain. 1853 01:44:10,440 --> 01:44:13,480 I think at 25 points. Yeah. 1854 01:44:14,120 --> 01:44:15,760 So they've got toughness 5, which? 1855 01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:18,360 Is bit useless, interestingly, yeah. 1856 01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:22,200 Well, good When? Drawing Chariots. 1857 01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:25,720 Yeah, strongly nasty. So. 1858 01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:30,640 Super turbo Chariots. I do have to make. 1859 01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:34,280 One, I'm not a fan of the form of the. 1860 01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:37,800 I'm really not those. Huge. 1861 01:44:38,240 --> 01:44:40,560 Some people love them, some people say iconic. 1862 01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:42,760 I'm not a fan. I prefer the earlier models, but 1863 01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:46,240 I say that with nice things so. Maybe. 1864 01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:50,520 I'm biased anyway, but I prefer the slimmer, sleeker look of 1865 01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:52,360 the. Realms of Chaos ones to the. 1866 01:44:52,920 --> 01:44:55,840 Great big huge fall. The claws are so big they'd fall 1867 01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:59,840 over you. Know and. 1868 01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:01,920 I and I accept that some. People absolutely adore those 1869 01:45:01,920 --> 01:45:04,600 models. It's one of those things some 1870 01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:08,920 people love. The first multi part plastic 1871 01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:11,400 night goblins, I can't stand them. 1872 01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:15,080 Some people like the Wolf edition demonettes, I can't 1873 01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:17,160 stand them. But each their own I think. 1874 01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:21,800 I think they have a charm. I understand, but do I like the 1875 01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:22,360 models? No. 1876 01:45:25,320 --> 01:45:26,960 No. Yeah, of course. 1877 01:45:28,360 --> 01:45:32,600 Yeah, and they're supposed to be like otherworldly beauties, and 1878 01:45:32,600 --> 01:45:34,760 maybe that's not what they comment on. 1879 01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:37,440 Yeah, they're a bit monstrous. Yeah. 1880 01:45:38,640 --> 01:45:39,240 Huge. Bulging. 1881 01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:41,880 Biceps. And and massive claws, human 1882 01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:42,920 claws, they. Don't. 1883 01:45:42,920 --> 01:45:45,720 Really fit with the aesthetic they were supposed to have 1884 01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:49,480 That's that's my main issue. I think they're nicely sculpted 1885 01:45:49,520 --> 01:45:51,280 They look ridiculous with the claws, but they're nicely. 1886 01:45:51,280 --> 01:45:52,480 I don't think they're badly sculpted. 1887 01:45:52,480 --> 01:45:54,160 It's just they don't I think you've hit the nail. 1888 01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:56,800 They don't fit the image I have of what they are. 1889 01:45:58,040 --> 01:46:01,120 Yep, All right, so and what? Else does slunge have to bring 1890 01:46:01,120 --> 01:46:04,600 to the table? Beans of. 1891 01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:07,680 Yeah, weird ones these aren't they? 1892 01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:10,040 That's a big. Thing right? 1893 01:46:10,240 --> 01:46:12,160 Like bugs with. With. 1894 01:46:12,440 --> 01:46:16,360 Almost human slash gene stealer like hens. 1895 01:46:16,440 --> 01:46:18,800 Yeah, yeah. So hard. 1896 01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:23,560 To rank up they're. Supposed to go on cavalry. 1897 01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:26,240 Bases and they've got like this massive clothes to the side so 1898 01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:27,600 you can't put them next to each other. 1899 01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:30,760 It's a nightmare. They like the clothes. 1900 01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:37,680 See that that's that's an actual physical downside of the 4th 1901 01:46:37,680 --> 01:46:41,240 edition Slanish models. So nasty. 1902 01:46:41,320 --> 01:46:42,480 Claws. Yeah, certainly. 1903 01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:44,960 Again, they're nice. They're nice enough models, the 1904 01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:47,760 things, the 4th edition ones, just yeah, ranking them up is 1905 01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:51,400 probably a bit hard, but again, I, you know, yeah, I'm not, I'm 1906 01:46:51,400 --> 01:46:52,840 not going to mention it. You know what I'm going to say? 1907 01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:56,440 Yeah, they're not. Very good. 1908 01:46:56,480 --> 01:46:57,240 They're not very. Good. 1909 01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:00,680 Well, they're not, actually. Very. 1910 01:47:00,680 --> 01:47:01,560 Giving. I've never really. 1911 01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:04,400 Used them. Yeah, So what? 1912 01:47:04,440 --> 01:47:08,440 Are their limitations? Why are they not good? 1913 01:47:09,280 --> 01:47:10,440 So they've got three attacks which. 1914 01:47:10,440 --> 01:47:14,680 Is fine but weapons, skills, strength, toughness 31, wounds 1915 01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:18,440 6. So you can't use them as like 1916 01:47:18,480 --> 01:47:23,560 fast harassment support units. They're clearly not like a 1917 01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:26,000 frontline unit. No, they're going to break. 1918 01:47:26,360 --> 01:47:28,400 Very easy. They're very. 1919 01:47:28,400 --> 01:47:31,000 Fragile and wouldn't toughness read they've got that the money 1920 01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:33,800 save but still and expensive sorts of points model. 1921 01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:37,200 Yeah looks right. Have you found any? 1922 01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:40,080 Use for them Yoga No not. Really. 1923 01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:42,880 I think they're the worst. Team, I mean, yeah, yeah. 1924 01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:48,440 Yeah, so you would even take no. Links for them for the same. 1925 01:47:49,080 --> 01:47:52,720 Whoa. OK, so we don't. 1926 01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:55,880 Actually, like the models, they're difficult to rank out 1927 01:47:56,000 --> 01:48:04,360 and they're not very useful, so clearly not our favorite, but 1928 01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:06,160 you still take them. Because they're part of the 1929 01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:09,040 Slanish army and they're somewhat favourful. 1930 01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:13,520 Yeah. So did you ever feel like feel 1931 01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:17,920 pure demonic armies or was that a thing? 1932 01:48:18,440 --> 01:48:21,400 Usually you couldn't if you. Follow the rules. 1933 01:48:21,800 --> 01:48:25,440 Oh, OK, yes. So what was the you need a a 1934 01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:28,280 human general or did you need other stuff as well? 1935 01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:30,240 You you mean? Yeah, you can only. 1936 01:48:30,240 --> 01:48:32,680 Spend 50% of your points on. Yeah, OK. 1937 01:48:32,680 --> 01:48:33,320 And. Technically. 1938 01:48:33,320 --> 01:48:36,960 Your your, your greater. Demons are not characters, OK? 1939 01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:40,760 They're just demons. So I'm not. 1940 01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:42,840 Even sure they can they. Can't be the general right? 1941 01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:46,280 They no OK. I. 1942 01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:48,480 Mean. You could. 1943 01:48:48,480 --> 01:48:49,600 If. You're, you know, of course, 1944 01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:51,080 playing your mates and you. Wanted to do it. 1945 01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:52,720 There's nothing. Stopping you and it's probably a 1946 01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:56,840 good thing to do because it it is insane. 1947 01:48:56,880 --> 01:49:01,120 You know, in a 2000 point game you could play and 700 and 5800, 1948 01:49:01,120 --> 01:49:04,640 whatever it is of your points are greater demon. 1949 01:49:04,880 --> 01:49:07,880 Officially you can do it because you spend up to 50% of your 1950 01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:10,040 points on that. But your arm is really tiny. 1951 01:49:10,520 --> 01:49:12,480 Really. Even more so than normal for 1952 01:49:12,480 --> 01:49:15,520 chaos. So I probably wouldn't. 1953 01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:18,680 Do it myself in in anything below a 3000 point game and even 1954 01:49:18,680 --> 01:49:21,960 then even in a 3000 point game of demons are big investments. 1955 01:49:22,480 --> 01:49:24,920 Yes. Yes, yeah, it was a real small 1956 01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:27,920 comment to use the. The troops, various cans, yeah, 1957 01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:31,880 OK. And of course, we need to settle 1958 01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:34,920 this. Which is your favorite of the 1959 01:49:35,040 --> 01:49:38,640 four? Fab. 4. 1960 01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:42,160 You don't. Have to rank them all but. 1961 01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:44,360 Just pick your favourites for me Zinch. 1962 01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:45,920 Closely. Followed by no. 1963 01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:49,720 Cinch for me. As well and then slime. 1964 01:49:51,880 --> 01:49:54,560 I would say corn. Based on, like, childhood 1965 01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:56,240 preference. Yeah, I love them all. 1966 01:49:56,480 --> 01:49:59,160 Really now. Yeah, I think we talked. 1967 01:49:59,160 --> 01:50:02,720 About that before as well, if you just you know, you don't 1968 01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:05,720 know too much about the game, the tactics, you just look at 1969 01:50:05,720 --> 01:50:09,800 the stats and the killiness definitely will be the kids 1970 01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:12,280 favorite. I think the blood cells still is 1971 01:50:12,280 --> 01:50:12,920 so. Iconic. 1972 01:50:12,920 --> 01:50:15,480 I think everyone started playing as a team at that time. 1973 01:50:15,480 --> 01:50:18,560 Just remember the blood cells tells us 10 wounds and 10 1974 01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:21,800 attacks and frenzier. Oh no, sorry, no frenzy. 1975 01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:23,600 No, there would have been. 20 attacks. 1976 01:50:26,160 --> 01:50:28,800 Yeah, but. 10 attacks, weapons kill 10. 1977 01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:32,960 Was it strength eight or seven? And three wounds per attack. 1978 01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:35,200 I mean, it was overkill again, almost. 1979 01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:37,400 Can I just say 1? Thing actually. 1980 01:50:37,440 --> 01:50:40,480 I'm going to change my favorite chaos God, Sure. 1981 01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:47,840 Of course. Etsy. 1982 01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:55,640 Well. OK, maybe. 1983 01:50:55,640 --> 01:51:00,520 You're allowed to do. That, yeah, but yeah. 1984 01:51:01,680 --> 01:51:03,600 You'll definitely spoil for choice. 1985 01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:09,280 With Chaos, you can do quite a few different, Yeah, armies, of 1986 01:51:09,280 --> 01:51:12,600 course. And if you like we talked about 1987 01:51:12,600 --> 01:51:16,960 if you don't abide strictly by the rules, you can do a lot of 1988 01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:18,560 other things as well. You can do pure cases. 1989 01:51:18,560 --> 01:51:21,720 And so, yeah. So that sounds like fun. 1990 01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:26,720 And my memory from the times I faced Chaos was that they were 1991 01:51:27,280 --> 01:51:30,520 quite strong. They usually beat up my empire 1992 01:51:30,880 --> 01:51:36,160 handsomely. I don't know what your take was. 1993 01:51:36,160 --> 01:51:39,920 Were they powerful in the 4th edition in the right hands? 1994 01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:45,360 Absolutely All right, so yeah. And I think it was quite popular 1995 01:51:45,360 --> 01:51:48,000 when it came out. And of course, one benefit was 1996 01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:52,400 you could get away with a quite low model count and still get a 1997 01:51:52,400 --> 01:51:55,000 viable army. Yeah, when I when I. 1998 01:51:55,400 --> 01:52:00,920 Run my painting challenges that I do Chaos is always quite high 1999 01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:04,880 up on the list of numbers of people doing chaos because yeah, 2000 01:52:04,880 --> 01:52:09,640 small number of points to paint, you know, model count wise. 2001 01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:14,240 So yeah it's certainly these days it's probably more popular 2002 01:52:14,240 --> 01:52:16,640 than it was back in the day of football. 2003 01:52:16,640 --> 01:52:20,840 It may be unclouded in my memories, but typically back in 2004 01:52:20,840 --> 01:52:25,400 the day, certainly amongst people that I played, chaos 2005 01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:28,440 wasn't necessarily a number one choice for most people. 2006 01:52:28,440 --> 01:52:30,120 I. Think it probably is more so 2007 01:52:30,120 --> 01:52:33,560 now, but. Then again, also prevalence of 2008 01:52:33,560 --> 01:52:35,920 course is probably higher as well, simply because gauge watch 2009 01:52:35,920 --> 01:52:37,480 would have made more of a thing of it as well. 2010 01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:43,480 Yeah, very cool of everything. Now there, there. 2011 01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:46,200 There were not a. Lot of battle report with chaos, 2012 01:52:46,200 --> 01:52:48,560 at least as far as I can remember. 2013 01:52:49,520 --> 01:52:52,560 They did a lot more on, you know, health. 2014 01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:56,880 Oxen Goblins. Yeah, they had one against 2015 01:52:57,280 --> 01:52:59,160 dwarfs. And but I don't know if it. 2016 01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:02,400 Was anyone against Tails? Yeah. 2017 01:53:03,680 --> 01:53:05,080 Maybe that was fifth I. Don't know. 2018 01:53:05,760 --> 01:53:08,000 No, it was. Just before 5th. 2019 01:53:08,520 --> 01:53:11,600 Yeah, yeah. It was when a grim came out and 2020 01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:16,280 they had this like, who was the best magician take this eye 2021 01:53:16,280 --> 01:53:19,040 Grim. So they did this sort of duel 2022 01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:24,560 with Emerick as well, Yeah. And I remember that was probably 2023 01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:28,880 later in 5th or maybe in the sixth, they had that, which was 2024 01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:32,600 the best special character, but obviously fourth, Yeah. 2025 01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:42,320 And Austrian that didn't they? And they had a love pester that 2026 01:53:42,320 --> 01:53:44,280 came off the top. That was a bit cheating. 2027 01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:47,440 Yes. Right. 2028 01:53:47,440 --> 01:53:51,280 So I think we've gone through the book and it's been a lot to 2029 01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:54,800 talk to talk about. And does anyone have any 2030 01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:58,880 finishing thoughts or anything they want to touch on that we 2031 01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:01,840 haven't. If not, I guess we'll no, we 2032 01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:04,000 don't really. Want anything else? 2033 01:54:04,200 --> 01:54:05,400 Yeah, and. And. 2034 01:54:05,480 --> 01:54:08,920 No, no. Everyone likes chaos. 2035 01:54:09,160 --> 01:54:12,960 So. It's. 2036 01:54:12,960 --> 01:54:16,040 Very ablimatic. Of the old world, Yeah, yeah. 2037 01:54:17,360 --> 01:54:22,440 Definitely and a driver of the lore or maybe that's all now. 2038 01:54:23,520 --> 01:54:26,480 Thank you all very. Much yes, thank you and we'll. 2039 01:54:26,480 --> 01:54:31,320 See how and who will do the the what are you? 2040 01:54:31,480 --> 01:54:34,600 Planning to do next in in the. List of. 2041 01:54:34,600 --> 01:54:38,280 What we're doing for the group, as it were, next. 2042 01:54:38,360 --> 01:54:39,400 Will be dark out.