Hello everybody, welcome to the Krannickerman podcast.
This is Joshua Host and today I
have the pleasure of speaking with Mark. Mark
is a active member of the Bedroom and Battlefields
Discord Group and the Krannickerman Discord Group.
If you don't know what Discord
is, Discord is an application that's accessible
through your phone and through your desktop
computer. It's basically a social
networking site without all the ads and all the other
garbage that goes with most social networking sites
these days. It has channels related to
hobby and whatever it is because we created our own
Discord group and then we can then facilitate
different text and voice channels in there. So
people can access, for example, for a Krannickerman
one, you can access the Avalanche painting channel
which showcases loads of people's wonderfully painted
projects or work in progress images of their
models that they're painting. It
could be about bad reports and people posting up about
their games they're playing. It
could be more specific to a game, a specialist game
or main game like Epic Space Marine, Man of War,
you name it, it's all there. So
there's numerous channels where you can go through
and check out what wonderful stuff people are
doing out there in our community. And
if you wanted to sit down and paint and chat with
one of the guys during the week, there's voice channels
where you can do that. You can access like this a
camera so you can show people what you're painting
at the time or if you just want to chat and talk
to the guys there as you paint, which is a really
nice social aspect to the Discord which I think is
one of the strongest features of it personally.
And I get to connect and chat
with guys all around the world with different time
zones. So it's been a really
invaluable part of the community as we see it
grow and more people join and share their stuff and
connect. Maybe there's a player locator
channel where you can maybe find someone locally in
your area that plays the same games you do. So
it's become a valuable extension and tool for us
to grow our community and feel that we're even
closer. We've got remote games where
people host like Chris and Cameron hosts games in Man
of War. I played Space Hulk. I
played the entire Space Hulk campaign with Chris
through Discord, which has been fantastic. So
that means basically he sets up the board and all
the miniatures and I just instruct where I want my
models to go and I roll the dice and I show my
camera where my dice are and that kind of thing.
And we have a great time. We
have other people joining in and yeah Discord's
become a really valuable part of our community as
we see it sort of grow and hopefully develop over
time. So me and Mark talk about
that a lot and also Mark is a patron of mine and
also part of the painting tutorials that I do for a
number of students at the moment, which is great to
see that sort of growing and I'm showing people how
to do certain techniques like how to paint black,
how to paint yellow or how to paint a specific race.
For example, Power Storbs, how
to do the reds and all that kind of thing, how to
paint faces, how to do certain techniques. So
me and Mark have done a couple lessons now. We're
going to do a third one this week and it's been
great to see his progress through Discord as he posts
up work and progress shots. So
that's another great feature and it sort of connects me
and him as well. We can talk and chat and
paint at the same time as I show him different things
that he needs to learn to continue with his projects
that he's painting on. So if you want to check out
the Patreon for the Chronic Command, it's a we have a
seven day free trial that you can go and access all
the painting videos now. There
are two that are available. One
is the Ork Space Ork, he's an evil son's, I've painted
the face and done the my recipe for the skin tone
on that. And there's also Night Goblin
now, which you get to vote on, you get to vote to
see what you want painted each month. And
at the moment, there's a Night Goblin. I
did the black on his robes and I did the free hand
marking on that as well. So
doing a bit of free hand painting black was the one
we did for April this month. So
you get to vote again next month to see what next
minute you want me to paint for that. So
that's part of the Storm Boy tier. And
then there's the heavy ledge, painted surreal tier
where you get a 40 minute lesson with me, one on
one, just going through what aspects of painting
you want to learn about. So,
but we get to talk about that in the interview
anyway, so you get to know more about that as we go
along. But I hope you enjoy Mark's
conversation with me. I really enjoyed it. I
hope to have Mark back on at some point in the
future, as he has a load of great things to talk
about and lots of knowledge about the hobby and great
ideas. So until then guys, enjoy the
interview. Yeah, thanks for taking the time
to come and chat with us. No,
you're all right. Don't worry. It's
good. And yeah, today we're going to
talk about, you know, your involvement with firstly
your initiative to start up a group. Is
it called the Orcs Tavern or something like that? I
feel the reminder. Yeah, so it's the Royal Orc. And
it's the idea was we had over on the Bedroom
Battlefield Discord community, we decided to
run a kind of Christmas party, if you like. And
it was going to be done in the style of a virtual
pub. And we had, you know, pub
games and silly things like that and quizzes and just
general chat and getting to know each other and people
painting along. It worked really well. We
had about probably 20 people join, which we were
really surprised by. So David and myself sort of
got together afterwards and said, well, you know, this
is something that we could do more frequently. And
we decided we'd do it on a kind of quarterly basis.
So we did one in December,
and then we ran another one in March, going to do
another one in June and then September. So
there'll be kind of four times a year that people
can get an opportunity to meet up and chat. And
it's worked really well, actually. And
it's been great to get to know people, see their
faces and kind of find out a bit more about what
they're up to, tell some silly stories and plan.
And, you know, it just sort of
gives a bit of a structure around, rather than doing
it as a drop -in, we thought, well, let's try
and do it as a two -hour session. And
then people join for the majority of it. And
actually, most people were able to come along and
join for the whole lot. So it was great. That's
awesome. That's great. Yeah,
it was a really great idea. I
did manage to catch the last, what, 20 minutes
before everyone dropped out and went to bed. Yeah,
I think for you, it was at like four in the
morning or something, ridiculous, wasn't it? I
think it was like, I think I got up at five, I was
going to get up at four, but then I just couldn't
do it. I don't know why. And
I just, you know, naturally just woke up at like early
about five, 30 or so, and then jumped in, or I think
it might have been six o 'clock or something, and you
were still there. And I thought I'd just jump in
quickly. But yeah, I was really
surprised at the number of people there. And
I thought it was such a great idea. And
the Royal Orc, I think, is a great name. And
yeah, you're going to see lots of people in that you
had some topics you discussed during that
session. And yeah, it was just good to
see people just doing a hobby and hanging out and,
you know, showing their faces on camera or not.
And then, you know, just
contributing to the conversation. I
think it's a really good idea. Yeah,
it was something that worked well, because we
talked probably 12 months ago about the idea of
having regular paint and chat sessions. And
I think because the painting chat sessions that
exist on your kind of command discord are popular,
it felt like maybe that was a little bit potential
duplication. So there's already is somewhere
to go with it and do that. So
it felt like we wanted to come up with something that
was got a little bit of something different about
it. And that seemed to work. And
the other thing that people enjoyed about it is I
tried to bake in things that are, you know, like,
for example, roller d6, and then we had like just
random conversation generators and this kind of
thing to talk about certain topics and stuff. Because
I think that sometimes you get those awkward silences
where everyone joins and no one really knows each
other. So just ways of doing that to
stimulate it and kind of drive it forward and turn
it into a bit more of an interactive session. I
think so much so that actually Matthew and I have
been talking about the fact that you could kind of do
a slightly stripped down version about and actually
run it as a podcast. I know you have in the past,
you've had podcasts where you've had maybe seven or
eight guests on and you've hosted and asked them
questions and stuff. And it's nice to hear so many
voices and so many people's different views on it.
Yeah, I think podcasting can be
a really lonely play sometimes if you're just
doing it solo. And that's why I just do not
do solo podcasts. I had done it in the past,
but I just refuse to do them now. That's
why it kind of affects it on me with me sometimes
when he can. And I always have a guest on,
you know, to talk about something because you want
that extra voice, you want that sort of, you know, to
and fro a bouncing of ideas back and back and
forth and actually having a conversation. I
was going to suggest even to you, because I started
doing live streaming recently. And
I bring on not just one, but maybe two guests at a
time. And it's just a nice way to,
again, sort of you have a conversation about a certain
topic. And I'm a fan of certain other
other YouTubers that do this. And
I think it's a really great way to invite former
guests back onto the onto the live stream. And
for other people to get to know them, they can see
them talk to them, they can interact with them. So
it's kind of in the same kind of medium. But
what we're talking about, of course, is Discord. And
Discord is still quite a enigma for some people that
just don't know what it is, how to get into it.
And it's quite a difficult,
well, not difficult, but it's not difficult to get
in and enter and start. But
I think navigating your way through Discord is kind of
strange and new for people who have never seen
something like this before, you know, going from
personal experience. So maybe it's a good topic
now about Discord and, you know, how did how to how
to get in, how to find these chat rooms and that
kind of thing. Yeah, it's a strange one. And
I when I signed up to Matthew's Discord, I'd never
had a Discord account before. And
I just thought, well, I'll give it a go. And
I'll see what it's like. And
I joined and that that point, that's probably the
second person to join or something. There
was only a handful of people in there. So
it was quite a safe space to sort of try out what
even the how even the technology worked and all
that kind of stuff. I mean, I've not got any,
I've kind of about 10 years ago, I got rid of
all my social media accounts, because I was
just finding it just exhausting, just doing
scrolling and looking through all this sort of
endless stuff and all the adverts coming in. And
just found it like it wasn't good for me. So
I got rid of all that. And
I found I was a little nervous, well, would this
call be similar? But I think it's sufficiently
different it's quite focused. However,
what I then did is I then found your Discord and
joined that and then I joined about seven or eight
other ones. And that point, I then found I
was a bit overwhelmed. So I'm now only a member of
two or three. And that for me is about the
sort of peak spot where I can keep it organized. And
I know what I'm doing. And I can have a little bit
of time looking at it. And then I can have some time
away. And it just doesn't become too
much. Because I think that all of the
social media platforms out there, they're all private
companies. And they're all obsessed with
keeping you on the platform. That's
essentially what any software solution is. And
nowadays, it's keep you there, keep you on the
platform, get the adverts in front of you. So
same as the television was, you know, in the 1960s,
never one was panicking that children are going to
be polluted by the TV. And,
you know, essentially, social media is all about
putting interesting stuff in front of you so that you
then read all the commercially beneficial stuff
to the companies who are advertising. But
Discord doesn't have that about it as to whether it
will in the future. I don't know. And
I think that that's a risk area, but something we just
got to manage as a community. But
as a way of getting to know people and have
conversation and be open and honest and positive, I
think it's really fantastic. I
mean, I'm genuinely surprised by how little
negative comments ever creep in, how many people ever
say things that are a bit off color. It's
almost never. The community is very self
-pleasing. And I think that there's almost
a Connecticut that comes with Discord, where once
you get a critical mass of people behaving in a
positive, you know, sort of grown up way, then everyone
else will follow suit. And I think that you will you
will have experienced that on yours, certainly.
Absolutely. Yeah. No,
I like coming into Discord and didn't know what it
was. And I was quite, I don't know,
a little bit cautious about Discord or just not overly
well -me'd about because when I got in there, I
thought, oh, what's this? You
know, it just seems like it's a bunch of separate
channels and people are chatting and that kind of
thing. But then I over the years,
I've really grown to love it. And
it's my number one source of not just information,
but interaction with people. And
I think the paint and chat is the best thing ever,
because what it enables me to do, it enables me to
paint and talk and not get distracted. And
I think you touch on it really well there with all
the other social media platforms, even though they
have their own, you know, useful properties and that
kind of thing. We go to Facebook for certain
relatively thing. We don't go to the paint and
chat, but go there to look at other people's miniatures
or enter discussions, maybe. But
mostly it's just for like pictures and watching people
doing their hobby and that kind of stuff. But
Discord is a great way where you can have that.
Plus, you can have these channels
where you can watch, for example, remote play games,
guys, host, matter of war, Blood Bowl, you name it,
whatever game they're playing. We
do a lot of that on our Discord, but you guys do a
lot of similar sort of stuff, but sometimes a bit
more varied. You talk about books or we
talk about, you know, parents with their kids and
gaming, you have your own sort of, you know, as you
say, your own paint and chat channels as well. So,
yeah, like I said, they're really good environments,
very friendly. People are just, it makes people
enthusiastic about the hobby, gets motivated to do
stuff. We've got painting challenges with
the whole thing. So it's fully encompassing. I
think it's very welcoming. And
like I said, like it's just full of positive, good
people. And yeah, I think that sort of
rubs off on other people. And
I don't think we have any sort of bad eggs. You
might get the occasional one, but they don't last
very long. Yeah, that's true. And
I think the other thing that it seems very good at
is being respectful of the fact that everyone, so we
always kind of use this phrase that we're, I say
always use the phrase, I can't remember what the
phrase is now, but it was something along the lines
of, you know, we've all got, we're sort of very
diverse in our approach, but we're united in our
passions and our interests. You
know, and I think that that's the thing that
really works is the fact that you have this
environment where people who, there might be people
who are collecting brand new age of sigmar models
and showing off their brilliance looking stuff.
But then at the same time, it
would never be seen as inappropriate or wrong for
someone to make a bit of a golden space marines joke
or something like that and say, oh, I only like the
90s stuff. It's almost like everyone is
entitled to their opinion. And
it's all just collecting toy soldiers and playing
with them. And everyone's very mindful of
that. So there's, there's kind of
people are passionate about what they're passionate
about, but never to the detriment of somebody else's
passion. So I think that that's, that's
incredibly evident in how people are. And
some of the stuff that I've seen that other people
do, you know, it might be things that you think,
well, I personally wouldn't do that. It
doesn't hold interest for me, but I totally respect
the fact that they're doing it. And
the way that they're doing it, the passion they're
putting in is, is remarkable. Yep,
absolutely. So yeah, if one has a
different take on the hobby, what, what the hobby
means to them, it could be sort of current stuff,
could be old stuff, like we do. But
it's great to see people just, you know, painting
and doing something that's, you know, very beneficial
for them in terms of having a hobby, like ours.
So yeah, yeah, it's great. So
we've got historical stuff. Well,
I think we've got on our channel too, historical
gaming as well. We've included that. We
don't have so much of the modern stuff, but it does
pop up every now and again, which is fine. Like
we're not going to shun anybody to say, hey, you
know, we don't do modern stuff. It's,
it's, it's nice to see people just actively doing
something. Maybe they're playing the latest
game of a one of a quest or something with their
kids, or they're playing the latest here request or
something like that with their kids, which is really
great. And I know you guys are quite
diverse in the topics you cover, because it ranges
from everything from, you know, like solo play type
really niche game companies to like the big boys like
games workshop and all that kind of thing. But
yeah, I mean, it's, it's great to see just people
active, you know, showing pictures, because that can
be quite daunting for people too, isn't it? Like
showing their photos or their model models and
stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a
really significant thing, I think. So,
you know, I was, you know, I was in the hobby until
like when I was, when I was about 12 to I was
about 14, and then by about 1994, I got out of
it and never did anything again until 2018, where
2018 seems to be a date that crops up a lot, where
people say, oh, in 2018, I got back into it. So
we've got a theory that there's some kind of
twintail comic flew over the planet and reactivated
something inside our brains or something like that in
2018. But either way, that was the
point that I saw the boroughs and badges figures.
I'm sure you've seen those and
I got that game and I started playing it with my
daughter and she loved it. I
painted those and slowly but surely, you know, end
up getting more things, getting into more games,
painting more stuff. But I never shared any images
of anything I'd painted until I'd joined the
Bedroom Battlefields Discord. I'd
never put anything online, partly, like I say, having
any social media accounts. So
therefore, where would I show them? But
other than to, you know, friends and family, it was
all behind closed doors and there was a sense of it
being, well, I don't think they're probably painted
particularly well. And of course, that might be
true. But it's the fact that they're
painted in the first place, that's people want to see.
And when you share a painted
model, no matter the standard of that paint job,
what almost 99 % of people in our communities want to
see is, oh, that's a brilliant model. I
like how you painted it. I love your choice of colors.
It looks fantastic. It
really come alive. Every single painted model looks
better than every single gray model. That's
my theory. And just to see paint on
models and inspire people. And
actually, I've found it a great motivator to share
things that, you know, that I'm doing. And
I've not ever had any feedback to make me feel
like, oh, maybe I should have made that look better
before I shared it. It's almost always positive. And
anyone who gives you any sort of a tip, it will be
very politely phrased. And oh, that looks fantastic.
One thing you could do, if
you're interested, is do this to it, but it's a
bit more work and it's not for everyone. Those
kind of comments. And it's like, I really
appreciate that. Really warm welcome, because it is
daunting to show stuff. And if you look at Instagram,
it's a big competition. But you look on these
communities, it's not it's, it's much more about just
enjoying the models and enjoying the hobby together.
Yep. Now, that's a good point.
I think people get sort of,
or they feel like you say, they feel like, oh, well,
at the, we've got like a heavy lead channel on our
discord. Maybe they presume that it's only
for top painters. Well, it's not the case. It's
like, just show your stuff, you know, doesn't matter
what level you are, you're just starting out, you
know, you got your kids painting or whatever, just
show it because I think people would be really
encouraging. Firstly, and like you say, they
offer tips or whatever. And,
you know, it's always going to start somewhere. So
like yourself, you started, you got back in 2018, and
got back into the hobby, you felt more comfortable,
you know, showing your pictures of your models
with the guys on the, on the discord there, which is
really great to see and great to hear. And
it can only just grow from there, because you're,
you're getting feedback, or you're getting encouragement,
and you're seeing other people's painted works, and
you're starting to get more motivated to, you know, to,
to better yourself in your hobby, which is great. That
also, it's another great segue, because we, we do
our own painting classes together through Discord,
don't we? We do, we do, which I've
really enjoyed. And actually, what I've found
really beneficial from that is being able to take
things that I thought were true, and things that I
thought were, I was, that I was limited by. So
the parameters that I thought existed, and, and
using your expertise to try and say to me, no, those
aren't necessarily your limitations. These
are things that you can do. I
think that's what a good teacher can do is they can
open up the possibilities of your potential, and they
can actually take the lid off, rather than say, I'm
going to help you reach the lid. They're
going to say, no, there is no lid. Don't
worry about that. You can get you beyond that. I
think that the standard of painting on some of the
figures that I've done as a result of your lessons
is definitely significantly better. But
it also, I haven't felt daunted by this slightly
bizarre sense of the concern about doing a paint
job on a model you like that's of an appropriate
standard to befit the model. There's
something about the artistry that the sculptor has put
in, and then you have to do the rest. It's
quite an unusual thing, really, as an art form
that you are taking someone's art and then
completing it. Never would you buy a painting
for your home and then find that you've got to do
the rest on it. You know, or a film that, you
know, oh, it's the latest Martin Scorsese film, but
the final 20 minutes is missing, so you're going to
have to make it yourself on your phone. You
know, there isn't, those things don't exist. So
it's quite an unusual experience. And
sometimes I think feeling overwhelmed by the sense of
duty that you have to paint something to a
standard that is appropriate. And
I do think that the, and it will have always been
the case, but the studio scheme paintwork that you
get that's there to inspire you can equally be quite
intimidating, quite frightening. And
I think the painting lessons have really helped
me, A, with the technical side of the painting, the
actual practical technical side, but I think massively
with the psychological barrier of getting started,
putting something into it, seeing what you can do.
You know, the ones that I've
just done now, these May Queens that you've shown me
how to do these very light white dresses that would
almost be semi -transparent so that there's flesh tones
that you can slightly see where skin is pressed
against it. I'm really pleased with how
they're coming together. But when I saw the studio
scheme for those, the reason I bought those
models was also the reason that those models sat there
unpainted for 12 months. So the very same inspiration
also became perspiration. You
know, and I think that it was absolutely key to me
to be able to access that mentoring thing. I
don't think that people need mentoring and coaching,
you know, generally in life. And
the best companies and the best, you know, recognize
the fact that professionals need that. And
everyone needs to learn from everyone else. And
learning is not something that just you do once. But
yeah, now the fact that lessons to be absolutely
really, really useful, but also incredibly enjoyable as
well, and really look forward to them. No,
that's good, mate. Yeah, I think you did really
well, because I thought that was quite an
intimidating technique. And to be honest, I never have
done that before. I've never done like that kind
of technique before. I can see the guys who do
it on certain miniatures they're painting or
whatever. And I know I can see the
process, but I've never done it myself and I had
never had the model to do it. So
it was really good for me. It's
great for you. I'm glad that you sort of
found some, you know, found a practical way and easy
way of doing it to achieve that effect. And
it wasn't so complicated. It's
only like just two colors, really, wasn't it? You
know, two or three, that's all we had. So
that's two or three paints. And
you could achieve that just through a certain process
of, you know, from start to finish. And
that way you could practice painting those maidens like
that. And I think that looked really
nice, mate. So I've seen progress on
Discord there. So well done to you for
sticking in there. Thank you. I've
just got to get them finished now. But
yeah, they are coming together. And
I think that it's so lovely, isn't it, when you
see something that you've put off for whatever
reason. I've just actually had, just
arrived on Saturday morning, a Green Knight model, I
bought off Gaines Workshop. The
first thing I bought off Gaines Workshop since 1994.
And it arrived and it looked
absolutely fantastic. I mean, it's an absolute
master's class in Perry Brothers sculpting, isn't
it? And it's so wonderful. But
again, that's one of those ones. And
you look at that Mike McVeigh job with those
hands, those freehand curlicues all across, all
the barting and everything. And
it's, it would be very tempting to say, I'll paint
that one day. But I want to paint that this
year, you know, that's, that's, because putting it
off, what's the value in that? When
I can get so much enjoyment and joy from
doing it, doing it now. And
you can just take your time with it. You
know, it's like a centerpiece for your
collection. So you can just take it just
easy, just take it step by step, just take it easy,
painting it and then sort of just watch it grow and,
you know, develop over time. Yeah,
it's great. It's a really good thing that's
made to order. It's got people sort of really
excited about, you know, buying those old relics
that you could, you couldn't afford or couldn't
get when you were younger. But
now they're sort of remastered if you like, you
know, in new molds, new materials, maybe new metals
they're using. Yeah, this was metal and it was
25 pounds, which I think is not bad. That's
pretty good. Yeah, I was happy with that. I
mean, it was more money than, you know, I'd
normally pay, but for a one off, I thought, yeah,
that's all right. It's certainly a lot cheaper
than you buy on the second hand market. It's
brand new and a really crispy cast and there's no
extra flash on it. It looks really good, which I
did actually half wonder, you know, how many people
do they employ at their factory who are skilled
metal casters? Because when was the last time
they made metal models? I don't really know, but I
presume they don't make many of them. But
then they've come out well. So,
you know, they've fair play to them. They've
done a good job on it. And
they've been respectful of their heritage, which is
possibly one of the things that people get a little
bit riled about whether they are respectful of
their heritage. But I think ultimately they've
been trying to make money and sell more stuff. I
mean, that's why Warhammer exists, doesn't it, to sell
more figures. You know, when you really step
back a bit, sometimes we can all get a bit annoyed
about them being a private company wanting to make
money. But it's always ever been the
case, hasn't it? Yeah. So now, talking about
Warhammer, you attended Big Warhammer Day. Now,
is this something that correlates with the Royal
Org? Sort of. So,
yeah, I mean, this is kind of, this is a very, very
nice circular conversation, because it all roads lead
back to playing Warhammer. And
this is where it all began. And
what happened is we last year were intending in the
Bedroom Battlefield community to try and do a bit of a
meetup and go to bring out your lead. And
it didn't come to pass. We didn't really properly
arrange anything. And it didn't go, a couple of
people went independently, but we didn't do a meetup
or anything. But one of our community
members, Jason, he's got these absolutely beautiful,
enormous Alcan Goblin and Empire armies, about 8 ,000,
9 ,000 points of each, just, you know, serious
stuff. And it's spectacular. A
lot of it is perimenaches in the Empire range, a lot
of historical figures. He's got a lot of the Lord of
the Rings figures in the Orc range. So
it's all got that kind of quite realistic sort of
look to it. It's not your Kev Adams vibe.
It's more of a kind of late
90s or 2000s kind of look to it. And
it's absolutely stunning. And
what Jason's done is not only been, you know,
amazingly prolific in the amount of stuff he's
painted, but he's also, he arranges games at his home
and he invites people in, he teaches people the
games. He's a an absolute ambassador
for the hobby, you know, very much in the way that
you've got people like Chris and Calum on the
Manowar side of things. You know, trying to get more
people into doing it. And Joe Jason brought up this
huge setup. We hired the Village Hall
where I live in the Midlands in England. And
Jason lives in the south. And
then we had another guy, Ed, who's in our community,
who lives on the south coast. And
Luke, who lives up near Sheffield. And
we all came down to the Village Hall on Saturday.
We were there for about nine
or 10 hours, played this enormous game of 15 foot
by six foot table, four player game. And
it was a huge baggage train ambush. So
the Empire would deploy it along this road, and then
the Orcs were on them. And Jason had devised the whole
scenario. There was twists and turns in
there. We did magic item drafting
using the fourth edition magic set, and spell
drafting as well. And we used the sixth edition
rules for speed of play, really, more than anything
else. We wanted something that, so
Jason was saying, though, I think this is probably the
best rule set for a big, big, big game, because it
keeps it kind of simple. But
we have, for example, on there, there's three steam
tanks, two giants, three giants, you know, it was
serious. And that's even before the
reinforcements arrived. But it was brilliant. And,
you know, just an amazing day. It
was the first time I'd played Warhammer in 30
years. The first time I'd ever played
it properly, I think, because I think I'd
probably only actually played it as a lot of
kids our age would have done when they were, you
know, young teens would have played it sort of not
properly and just fumbled through a bit. This
was a proper setup, but at the same time not
overwhelming. The mechanics of it kind of
came back. We were, I mean, very much
guided by Jason. He curated the whole thing and
the actors as Game Master as well as playing. You
know, he came and set it all up in the morning,
packed it all the way in the evening. You
know, it took like an hour and a half to set up and
an hour and a half to pack away. But,
you know, the spectacle of it was absolutely worth it.
And it really did tick all
those white dwarf boxes. You
know, you just looked at it and just go, wow, this
is actually real. And I think just the idea of
it's the genesis of why to do it sits in the same
place as the Royal Oak. It's
about saying, okay, we're enjoying the collecting,
we're enjoying the painting, enjoying the hobbying. We've
met people, but actually how can we extend meeting
these people and turn it into something more? And,
you know, all three of those guys, I only met
through the Discord server. They're
not people that I'd ever would have met before in
real life. And actually, you know, we are
a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche of a
niche, aren't we? We're a tiny number of us. You
know, I was actually thinking to myself, I was
driving home from work yesterday, I wonder if that
was the biggest game of Warhammer that's been played
in England in 2024. It wouldn't surprise me. You
know, and he's just like, actually, this is pretty
cool, isn't it? You know, I know there's people
getting back into the old world, and that's brilliant.
But to see something, and it
also had those homebrew elements, you know, there
was things from the Warhammer ancients game,
there's things from Warhammer. You
know, it was, there weren't point restrictions, I don't
know, I mean, I say nominally about 8000 points,
but it wasn't balanced. It was a proper Rick Priestley
-esque, Gervis Johnson -esque type scenario of just, this
is the game, this is the story, this is what's
happening. And yeah, absolutely amazing. So
such an experience and so brilliant. And
I can't wait to do the next one. That
sounds amazing. Did you actually get to finish
the game? Well, no, in a sense, because we
had a series of, we did four turns over about nine
hours. So yeah, quite slow going, but
brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I
mean, we must have had about 40 units each. So
yeah, we didn't. However, the scenario set up that
for each baggage train that got off the board, that
was a victory point for each baggage train that got
raided, that was a victory point to the orcs, and for
any baggage train that was destroyed, that was like a,
you know, net zero, no one gets anything from that.
You've denied an opportunity for a
point, but you don't get any points back. And
it came down to the final roll of the dice, which
was absolutely amazing. So we've got no baggage trains
off the board. Two of them have been
destroyed, wiped out. And then we had this final
wagon that was actually like a war wagon, had
eight crossbowmen in it, and seven of them, it was
surrounded by 42 black orcs. They'd
lapped around and lapped around, lapped around 42 of
them on these seven guys. Six
of them got killed. And then the final roll of the
dice was a leadership test on the final guy, and he
rolled one under his leadership and survived. But
had it gone to another turn, it would have been
absolutely desesimated. So yeah, nominally, I think in
a way, it felt like an empire win, but those orcs
were on them. And they were absolutely
swarming the board. So yeah, it was they weren't
getting out of that valley alive, if we'd have played
to the end, I'm sure of that. But
yeah, absolutely brilliant. And
again, it didn't really felt like it didn't matter
who won or who lost it. It
was all very narrative. And we were all trying, but at
the same time, we weren't worried by it. And
the best moments, the most memorable were all the
ridiculous dice rolls and the stupid spells and the
bad luck and all the stuff that Warhammer can bring,
not the balance and the tournament and so on. I
know a lot of people are quite dismissive of sixth
edition, because they feel like it was the start of
the formalization of it as being very much a game
rather than a role playing narrative experience. But
I but Jason and I were talking and saying,
actually, if you take the game, if you take the
rules as an efficient set of rules, and then apply
them with a open narrative mindset, you end up with
the best of both worlds really. Whereas
if you'd have used a third edition Warhammer, it
probably would have just been untenable, because it's
so complicated. That's right. Yeah,
it's wonderful. Wow, that's great. And
I thought you used fourth edition magic, which is
quite interesting. Yeah, and that was purely because
it's so much more fun than just rolling some dice and
choosing some spells out of a book. The
act of, we were bluffing on things, we had the
dismiss spell thing came up a few times, and we were
pretending to add power cards to it, but not
really and all this kind of stuff. And
people were thinking that we've got more cards than
we've got, and how many spells we're going to cast.
I mean, most of the spells
went horribly wrong and didn't work at all. But
again, it was like, it was the game within the game
thing that everyone likes about the card system, or
not everyone, but I think it's ace. It
feels like you're being a magician for a turn, rather
than just doing another shooting attack or
something. And you're not just buffing the
army as a kind of planned way. I
mean, basically anything can go wrong. And
so all, and I really like that about how you know,
all your strategy in the world and all the tactics
go out window when everything goes wrong.
Actually, that's that makes things
fantastic. And very importantly, and the
magic drafting first card at the pack, crown of
command. Oh, beautiful. So
that year. So, you know, and that felt
like Providence at the very start, you just like, okay,
this is all going to work. So
I don't think we ever called it into question
because you just sat miles away from everyone. Now
that reminds me, Mark, you did actually draft all the
items, which is a really good topic. I
think that's that really changed everything for me.
Once I once David told me about
that, I don't know whether it was in our first
interview on the crown of command, like episode one.
Yeah, he told me about drafting
and Dave's actually the guy who set up our discord for
us for crown of command. So
things have that community there. It's
been wonderful. But yeah, he told me about
drafting. I thought bloody hell, that's
a good idea. I never thought of that
because otherwise you get that kind of mirror magic
guidance. I've got the black amulet,
you've got the black amulet, he's got the black
Gemina, he's got the black Gemina, I've got the hydro
sword, oh, you've got the hydro sword, you know, it's
always this how many of these things exist. Where
do you get them? Like the local asda? Yeah,
exactly. It's quite important, isn't it,
for the narrative and the story of warhammer to be
able to say, this is this character and he has this
thing, you know, that was that was the thing that
felt so exciting when when you first got into that.
I'll be like, oh, wow, this guy
and he can do this. The idea of being able to put
all those cards on anyone and make the sort of make
your own stuff. Yeah, it's cool, but you can
abuse it. And I think the drafting really
rains in it's really good. Yeah,
we love it. It really revolutionized
everything for me for drafting. And
luckily, everybody who's who I played with here in
Japan are all on board with it. So
that's great. I enjoyed as well. Yeah,
I think did you play the game last last weekend? Was
your big? Yeah, this Saturday just gone.
Yeah. Okay, so we play the 13th,
you played the previous weekend, didn't you play
the previous weekend with one renaissance, which is
basically the fourth edition rules, magic, but then sort
of just slightly modernize and tweak tier in there,
which the guy which we all enjoy playing because it's
fourth edition asking for me to play fourth edition
or fifth edition straight can sometimes be a bit of
a stretch, even though they'll do it. But
I think renaissance kind of just bridges the gaps
between certain things. And it's kind of like a
modernized army books and rulebook and that kind of
thing. So people feel more cool.
Which is great. I
mean, I still I still feel like playing fourth edition
to me. So I don't really see the
difference. But yeah, we did the drafting,
we played Empire vs. Orgen Goblins as well. In
a big game, for me, I prefer smaller games,
personally, like 1500 points is a really nice sweet
spot for me 2000 points, maybe max. But
we played 4000 points aside. But
of course, no items. So we had, you know, the
whole width of the table only six by four, four of
figures. And it was wonderful. It
was really good to see and had good frames here. It
was one of my it was probably the pinnacle, I'd
say, of my gaming career so far that day was so
much excellent with those guys, you know, going for
lunch, going to have a dinner, you know, having a
few drinks, playing until midnight and then crashing.
And then actually finishing the
game, like including it to the end. And
yeah, it was really, really fun, really enjoyed it. But
it was kind of, for me, looking at Wellington's
Empire Army, it's like, well, this is just out of
like White Dwarf magazine, the early fourth edition
chronicles of war, you know, the old battle
reports from White Dwarf always had like Empire vs.
Orgen Goblins has been one of my
dream kind of matchups, you know, and we finally did
it. And yeah, yeah, it's almost
like you say like 30 years in the making, you know,
of realizing the hobby, never having the opportunity
of doing anything like that. It
just seemed impossible then, you know, earning all those
miniatures, painting everything, having another
person to, you know, to enjoy that with you. But
now it's all possible because we have been doing
this for 30 odd years, you know. Yeah.
And I think, you know, the thing that is probably the
elephant in the room when you're a kid and you're
looking at White Dwarf is it didn't really sort of,
it didn't really process the fact that these were
professionally painted armies by people whose full time
job it was to paint them they had them in their
studio, they put them on as battle reports to create
content for a magazine. I mean, of course it was
going to look spectacular and it was going to look
amazing. But sometimes I think you look
at your own stuff, I haven't got everything I
need. And that's the worst mistake I
think I made as a kid is thinking that I didn't yet
have the things I needed to have to enjoy myself.
And I think that yes, so
called a counterpoint to that idea of building up
to be able to do something I absolutely agree. It's
amazing to be able to do it. But
also I would actively encourage everyone to say,
but while you're getting there, play with the
smaller armies, play skirmishes, play this, play
that, you know, just kind of make sure that you're
kind of building up to that point because actually
that's the motivation to build up to that big
point, isn't it, of having all those little
interactions as you go along. And
yeah, no, I think that I think that the idea of
doing more of this is just so exciting, you know, just
I'm so enthused by what what could be. And
it's all with old stuff and, you know, old rules
and people I've met. And, you know, all of it kind
of feels like it's come back full circle and almost
like completing the piece of the puzzle that was
never there. When I was 13 or 14, that made
me go, I'll do something else. Is
it just wasn't, you know, we started off at secondary
school, everyone was into war have a really popular
and hero quest and all these kind of things. And
then by about, you know, the third year into
secondary school, it was kind of on the wane. And
that that that was that critical mass thing. And
I know that we are a small number of people, but
through things like discord and the communities and the
podcasts and so on, we've never been more connected
and we've never been more able to see each other. I
think the only thing that's never going to be a never
going to go away, the problem is physical
distance. But for them for things like
smaller games, you know, I played with Cam on Manawar
and, you know, he's the other side of the planet.
And that was brilliant. It
worked really well. Yeah. So, you know, we can still
get you fixed, can't you with your remote gaming and
where you can. I'd urge anyone to, if they
see a physical event going on, think about attending,
if they see some things or arranging some of themselves
and hosting it. And, you know, the amount that
I've got out of sort of being the person who said,
oh, okay, I'll try and arrange that. And
I'm very much credit to Jason for being the driving
force behind this one. But, you know, whether that's
the Royal Orch or this day, you know, yes, it is
a lot to do. And it's more than more than
just sitting back and not doing anything. But
the, the richness and the rewards that you get back,
you know, pay yourself back in dividends. Absolutely.
So we sort of briefly touched on your history
when you were about 12 years old, you discovered
the hobby. Can you sort of elaborate more
about that? How it actually happened? Yeah,
I was probably a little bit younger than that. So
it was about 12, I think, when I got Warhammer. I
was about 10, I think, when I got HeroQuest. So
HeroQuest for Christmas, the year that probably most
people got HeroQuest for Christmas type of thing. So
I was about 19, 19, 1989, something like that. I
was about nine or 10. I can't remember the exact
year. And I don't know if I got it
the first year it came out, but I certainly got
it for Christmas. And it was, yeah, it was on
Telly, all the adverts and everything like that. So
up to that point, I'd liked, you know, I've got
loads of board games, and that was something that I
was quite interested in, and, you know, Lego, you
know, those kind of toys, really. I
liked stuff that was a bit fancy -ish books and so on.
But, you know, not really any
sense of knowing anything about whether that was role
-playing or certainly not war gaming, no kind of
concept of that whatsoever. So
very much that HeroQuest gateway. And
then you get the little leaflet in there, Games
Workshop or what's that, and, you know, start seeing
things. And then the next year, so
that would, yeah, I think that would have been
probably the Christmas I was 10 or 11, 10 perhaps.
And then it was when I went
to secondary school, when I just turned 11, that then
I started there, and there was just all these new
kids who, you know, been to other primary schools
that you meet, and a lot of them were into it. And
a lot of the, a lot of them were also playing
Warhammer, which was the thing that I knew existed,
because I'd seen the little leaflet in catalog, but I
didn't really know anything much more about it. I
just assumed it was something that was really
complicated and probably, I've got a feeling it even
had like a sort of suggested age range or
something like that on the leaflet. That
seems to be a memory that sticks in my mind. And
this idea that HeroQuest was kind of, you know, 10
plus and Warhammer was maybe for 13 or 14 year
olds or so on. But, yeah, talking to people
there, that would have been third edition time. My
friends had the third edition rule books, some of
them have got armies, and maybe someone had a really
nice undead army and a Skaven army and just seeing
all these kind of things, probably relatively small
armies, but, you know, people had stuff. There
wasn't anywhere in the town I grew up that you could
buy stuff initially, but then a small shop opened
up that was selling Citadel miniatures alongside other
toys and bits and bobs and model kits and so on. And
we would go into Birmingham on the train and go to
the games workshop there and buy things. So
it sort of just gradually by a period of osmosis
just getting into it. I can't really remember
exactly when I got first white dwarf because I was
looking at other people's issues. So
it all becomes a bit blurry, doesn't as to which
was the first one I saw versus which was the one I
bought. It would have been round
about, I mean, basically it was pretty much at the
point that the new fourth edition was coming out that
I started getting seriously interested in it. And
then realised that if I asked for the fourth
edition box set in 1992 for Christmas, then that
would give me the bulk of what I needed to start a
high old family, which is what I was interested in.
So that worked really well. I
think that box set way of doing things was genius
really. I'm not surprised that they did
it because the success they will have had with the
Milton Bradley games of realising that if you can
get a box and you can get that box into mainstream
retailers, then you've kind of put people in. So
yeah, got that box set, painted up the spearmen and
the archers. Probably not very well, but okay. I
remember selling the goblins to a friend for like
something absolutely ridiculous, like £2 .50 for
all of them or something like that. Absolutely
insane. On the basis that I just
thought, well, and that, but at the time I remember
thinking afterwards, I was stupid, I should have sold
them for more money. But of course, that meant that
he would then play with them and he painted them.
And he bought some more figures
so then you had an opponent. So
in some ways, actually, it's a good idea to give
them away and actually create more of an
opportunity to play. So yeah, we were playing that.
I bought Man of War when
that came out. Again, didn't really play it very
much. I bought a couple of the
dwarf ships. I bought the 40k second
edition box set. Didn't really play that very much,
bought a couple of Space Wolves and the Space Wolves
book. And then kind of come 1994,
all of it had been sat on the shelf probably untouched
for six months. And it all just went in the
paper, sold it secondhand for whatever I got for it.
I think okay money, actually.
But I don't know what spent
the money on. I think I bought a bike or
something. But you know, it was, it just
felt like it kind of came and it went in actually a
very short amount of time, to be honest. To
some extent, I regret it. But
at the same time, I think, well, I did do it. That
was what I felt at the time. I
wasn't obviously massively interested. And
then later in life, there's just this little bit of a
moment of recognition of thinking, oh, that's
actually, that was pretty good. I
enjoyed that. And thinking back to it and
thinking about why I enjoyed it and what it
gave me. And, you know, in a period
where, you know, I had a personal circumstances, my
brother died when I was 10. And,
you know, I think that going into that world and
sort of immersing myself in that fantasy world was
something quite valuable to me at the time. And
then maybe by the time I was about 14, I was
starting to perhaps recover a little bit from that.
And then becoming maybe, I
don't know, just wanting to do things that are
different. And sort of saw that as being
a bit of an introspective hobby. And
then wanting to do something that was more
outward looking. But yeah, then just as I got
older, I kind of realized that actually, my true
passions really are in those kind of spaces, the
storytelling and the narrative and the creating
the world and playing the world and exploring it. And
just the wonder of it all. And,
and yeah, it's all a bit silly, but of course, it's
a bit silly. That's, that's okay. And
I do think that whenever I probably look slightly over
my shoulder and saw anything GWN or as an
older teen, or in my early 20s, what I would have
seen would have been the grim, dark, you know, tough
exterior, the look that doesn't appeal to me, the
stuff that personally doesn't doesn't say anything
to me. I want to see bright green,
you know, grassy fields with brightly painted models
on, rather than a kind of grim, dark, tough world out
there. You know, it's and I think
that speaks to the escapism probably, you know, at that
time, I enjoyed, I enjoyed the silliness of it, I
enjoyed the jokes, and I enjoyed the bright colors,
and I enjoyed the cartooniness of it. And
yeah, that would have been an age thing, but it
probably would have been circumstantial as well of
wanting to find something that was kind of fun and
happy and light, but at the same time imaginative
and, and exciting. So yeah, it's, it's sort of
just, I think just lodged there in my brain and just
stayed there. And whatever that impetus was
in 2018 to, to look or to see something, again, I
can't remember what that is, but that coming back
to it thing, it's so significant, the amount of
people who return to something, whether they move
back to where they grew up, or they do something,
there's a point in your life where there's this
concept of things becoming wanting to return and
wanting to take comfort in that nostalgia. And,
you know, and it's been, it's been brilliant. I've
loved every minute of getting back into it, and
it's, it's been great for me, it provides, you know,
that opportunity to have some, some quiet time and
get into that flow state when you're doing things,
but it also gives you the opportunity to dream about
things, you know, you might be stuck in a traffic jam,
but you can be thinking about these imaginary worlds
and what you might do in them. And
I don't know, there's something the childlike
wonder has come back and it's, yeah, I'm loving it.
Oh, that's wonderful, man. I'm
really glad you found the hobby again. And
like I said, it's, you know, you may not know, or
how, remember how you got back into it, but at least
you got back into it. And you're really, really in a
good, good space in a good place, you know,
reconnecting with people, making it a social
connection as well, through Discord and then, you know,
meeting up with your friends and ordered to play
games and actually playing your fully, you know, maybe
your first and fully fledged game of Warhammer,
which is pretty amazing. Yeah,
it's been brilliant. I mean, I've been playing
other games, like smaller skirmish games and things
like that, which I've really enjoyed. And
like I say, when I first got back in with the
burrows and badges, my oldest daughter was really
keen on it. I mean, she was about 11 at
the time and she's 17 now. So
she's a bit less interested. But
you know, she's still all human me. And
actually, do you know what I saw the other day? She's
doing her A -levels at the moment. So
she's literally got, you know, a few weeks left and
she's done with high school. And
it's really busy. And she's got in the end of
her bed, it's probably up there now, the burrows and
badges book, and she's got a piece of paper in there.
And she was writing herself a
little warband list. And it's like, she's just doing
that. And it's escapism. She's
thinking, I like that when I was 11. I
enjoy doing that, you know, I enjoyed, and she's, she's
going back to something that brings her comfort and
brings her enjoyment. That's amazing. I
would love to see more, more girls or women into
wargaming. I know they're out there.
Yeah. Something that mainly women
attracted to the painting and the hobby side of
things, which I totally get, you know, the artistic
side of things. But I've heard of burrows and
badges. I've never played it. I
saw it that it got, I think it was voted number
one as the number one wargame or rule set for
the wargames illustrated or which would. Yeah,
that's right. It's actually a really good
little rule set. It works really well. I
mean, yeah, my oldest daughter, she absolutely
takes, I think I've never won. I
think she's beat me about 18 times. She's
completely ruthless. But then she is also, I mean,
my younger daughter, she's very artistic. She
loves to paint. She loves to draw. She,
you know, I'm trying to get her into miniature
painting, but she won't do it. But
the stuff that she can, she can draw, she's 40.
She's a highly skilled artist.
She's brilliant. But
yeah, my oldest daughter, she's much more into video
games and she's, you know, she knows, she's, you know,
could play all these games and knows exactly how many
hit points and percentages, chances she's got of
winning on anything. She's, she's a tactician.
Absolutely. Whereas I'm not, I'm
useless about, I don't care. I,
some of the best games I've ever played, I've
lost. So, yeah, me too. For
her to enjoy winning and me to enjoy the spectacle
of it all. But yeah, no, it's, you're
right about the diversity and it would be nice to
see more, more girls and women into the, into the
hobby. And I think a lot of it comes
from being honest, I do think the gateway of, and
I still think, I think it's, you know, the gateway
of the, the, the public image of the GW stuff, you
know, it's very highly stylized, the 40k stuff,
the age of Sigma stuff, you know, if that's your
aesthetic and you love it, brilliant, it's going to
totally hook you in, but it's not for everyone. And
I think actually when, if you expose people to the
wider world of all that, what's out there, you know,
some brilliant stuff, one of the schools I work at
is a girls school and help run a board game club
there on a Friday lunchtime. I
was talking to some of the girls at the school there
and telling them a bit about Frostgrave and that
really ticked their boxes. That
sounded really interesting. They
liked the look of it. They liked the sound of it. You
know, it sounded like something that they would
very happily read books set in that world and, and
want to explore in that world. And,
you know, there are games out there with an aesthetic
that probably is less macho, but the GW stuff is
pretty, it's pretty hard and it's pretty masculine
in my view. And that will put some people
off. Yeah. Yeah. No,
I think I totally agree. Yeah.
The diversity in your hobby is really important as in
terms of like different genres, different styles,
barriers and badges, badges is its own very unique
thing. Yep. Great to see it's so
successful. I've seen other ones where
there's sort of like these rat little mouse or mice
or rat people. I can't remember what it's
called now, but I can see, yeah, there's different
games that have really appealed to certain types
of people, especially girls when they see all those
little cutesy type things. What
was the other one I played that I've got? It's
like, it's like golden axe, but it's like all these
chibi type characters in there. Okay,
right. That's cool. From
Seamon that was years and years and years ago. But
yeah, those those licenses, those kind of IPs are
really popular with everybody because it's it
all tracked everybody, you know, yeah, absolutely. The
the geek guys, the geek girls and that kind of
thing. And yeah, it's really fun. But
any outmark, I know you're pressed for time mate for
today. I know you've got some work
pressing work to get on with, but I really want to
set my appreciation to yourself for taking the
time to come talk to us. And
and yeah, giving us some really great insights in in
your, you know, your journey into into the hobby
and, you know, your current state in the hobby. And
mate, we'll definitely get you back on to talk about
some different topics in the future, I'm sure. Yeah,
be fantastic. And I just want to say to
anyone listening, if you want to see pictures of
the games day that we did the big 8000 point orcs
and goblin stuff, if you go on the bedroom
battlefields discord, if you join that, I mean,
everyone's very welcome to join that as well. So
if you're a listener and maybe a discord member on
the crown of command one hop on over to the bedroom
battlefields one as well, because, you know, there's
a lot of crossover, but but they're the same
community. So, you know, that I think
you'll get value from being a member of both, I
certainly do. And there's pictures and stuff
over there. But also, I've just sent
Matthew a battle report that all four of us have
written up who played very much in the sort of style
of a white draw battle report. And
that's Matthew's going to host that on his bedroom
battlefields .com site. And if I get some time at
some point one evening, I might design it up because
to look in a kind of white dwarf esk style and
make that available as PDF to people as well, if
they're interested in seeing it in there. And
they kind of look and feel a bit of the hero hammer
magazine style look to it. Right.
Okay, that sounds really good. And
please go and check out the bedroom battle bedroom
or battlefields podcast that Matthew hosts. It's
a really, really entertaining podcast. So
I'll leave links for that below in the show notes
along with the discord link as well. So
look again, Mark, thank you again for today. I'm
sure we'll have you back because, you know, you've
got a wealth of ideas. You're
very passionate about the hobby. And
I'm sure there's something else we can we can tap
into and talk about in the future, mate. Wonderful.
Thanks for having me on Josh. And
thank you for your contribution and your
podcast. No problem. My
pleasure. Okay, mate, until next time, take
care and we'll talk to you again soon.