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Hello and welcome to this 
actually final installment of 

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the Magic Lore Deep Dives. 
And today we have reached the 

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raw magic, the essential chaos 
magic. 

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And with me is a usual day. 
Hello. 

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Hello, and our special guest 
today who also worked with us 

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when we did the Chaos Army Book 
review, Jorgon. 

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Hello. 
Hello. 

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All right, So we've been doing 
this for I don't know how long. 

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Dave Hoffy, You know, maybe. 
These ones, yeah, I guess it's 

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about that, isn't? 
It yeah, time flies. 

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So chaos in regards to magic 
they it was off with a bit of 

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looking back Dave, how was chaos
magic working in 3rd edition? 

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Prior to third, no idea. 3rd 
edition. 

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So initially there was demonic 
magic, which was kind of the 

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magic that Chaos sorcerers use 
along with battle magic. 

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Well, they could also use 
necromantic, that they could use

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illusionist, elemental, you 
know, same as any other racery. 

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They're accessing different 
amounts of different lists. 

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And then along came Realms of 
Chaos. 

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We all know the you know 
journey. 

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Lovely. 
Those two books, yeah, lovely 

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books, but pain. 
Painful in their birthing for 

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Games Workshop, let's say. 
And funnily enough, the spells 

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for the for the chaos powers in 
those are the same spells, 

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although how they were did and 
how they work is slightly 

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different. 
But they're the same spells that

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came along in Battle Magic for 
four edition. 

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So Battle Magic had four chaos 
spells per one of the three gods

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that used magic. 
Obviously called omitted for 

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obvious reasons. 
The only difference, well, 

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obviously there was a difference
in how they work because the 

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magic mechanic was different. 
And also in the 3rd edition you 

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had magical saves. 
So where the 4th edition spells 

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had like tough tests against 
toughness or things like that, 

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it was test against your 
willpower for a more safe. 

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But they're the same spells, 
same sort of roughly same sort 

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of effect, except one, there's a
zinch spell in Realms of Chaos, 

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Lost in the Damned. 
There's no lost. 

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Second one, Yeah, I think it was
lost on Deb, the changed name. 

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It was exactly the same spell, 
but it changed its name. 

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So it was transformation of 
zinch in Realms of Chaos, and 

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then automatically it was Bolts 
of Change. 

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I think the name Bolts Change 
came out of Epic. 

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I believe there's the Lord of 
Change alt of Change in Epic. 

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And they obviously went, oh, 
that's a, that's a caller name. 

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And it is all Change is a pretty
cool name. 

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So would it have the same effect
as transformation of Zinch, 

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which is basically turns into a 
bubbling pile of goo? 

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But aside from that, they're 
pretty much the same spells. 

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Yeah, same names. 
And then I said when we came to 

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4th edition they took those 
names, made spells that did sort

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of the same thing as a get along
until they did the chaos 

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supplement which was probably 
about 2/3 of the way into 4th 

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edition. 
So for the majority of 4th 

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edition you were using those 4 
spells per chaos God. 

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If I remember correctly they 
basically said the greater 

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demons get those 4 spells 
anyway, and then the remaining 

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ones are divvied up between your
lesser demons and your 

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sorcerers. 
Lesser demons could use one of 

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the decks one. 
We've covered this one before, 

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but each of the different types 
of lesser demon could use one of

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the coloured decks. 
So Slanesh could use Amethyst, 

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Nergal could use Jade. 
Really weird combo there. 

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This is green, but yeah. 
It's all of life, but twisted. 

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What kind? 
Of yeah, death is kind of what 

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Nergal is, isn't it really? 
Decay, corruption, that sort of 

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thing. 
And then Zinch could use bright.

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Yeah, it was bright because 
there's the fight obviously. 

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And sorcerers could use dark 
magic as well. 

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I think that's how it worked if 
if memory serves correctly. 

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And and I looked at the spells, 
not the mechanic and suddenly 

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reals and looked at the mechanic
to reflect my memory. 

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Yeah. 
So Jorgen, do you, did you have 

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any experience prior to 4th or 
when did you get into it? 

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Nah, it started in 94. 
Yeah. 

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So the Chaos box was released by
them. 

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And yeah, should we start 
looking at what they what Chaos 

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initially got in the first 
release, the battle magic? 

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We got I'll go. 
I've I've done my usual sort of 

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building with my own little 
little table of stuff. 

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So Nergal got miasma of miasma, 
sorry of pestilence, plague, 

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wind, stench of Nergal and 
stream of corruption. 

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So miasma of pestilence 2 power 
spell, 6 inch range and it's an 

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enfeeblement sort of spell. 
So any creatures that within 6 

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inches of the wizard have their 
characteristics halved whilst 

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they're within that range of the
wizard. 

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So if they were to move out of 
the range then their 

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characteristics go back up to 
normal. 

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So it's, it's kind of useful, 
but it's easy to avoid, Yeah, 

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you know. 
I guess this again if you want 

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to add to these as well, you can
of course. 

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Absolutely. 
That spell stayed exactly the 

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same and was part of the deck as
well. 

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Yeah. 
Later on. 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
Plague wind 24 inch range can 

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because on a single model or 
unit 3D six hits minus the 

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targets toughness with wounds 
SO3D six hits but it's 4 plus 

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wound wounding role and then for
every 3 wounds caused you create

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a plate bearer. 
Yeah, that's cool. 

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Yeah, it's cool. 
Cool little spell 3 three power,

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though, so you know it's going 
to be a lot to cost and 

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obviously bit of a bummer if you
don't have any play bearer 

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models to to create from from 
the, you know, carnage that you 

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cause, but still, you know, a 
good chance of causing wounds 

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for sure. 
The instead, you've now got one 

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power. 
It's the only one power spell 

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that they've got another sort of
infy woman one casting close 

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combat in effect, the target 
model within three. 

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Oh, no target model. 
Oh no, it's within 3 inches. 

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Sorry, it's not close combat. 
I'm a lie. 

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So within 3 inches and they lose
1 attack. 

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All models within 3 inches lose 
1 attack another one move out of

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the three inch range. 
You gain your attacks back. 

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So, but obviously if you if 
you're, if the attacks 

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characteristic is relevant, 
you're probably in close combat.

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So you're not moving anywhere 
until that's over? 

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Yeah. 
He's actually lost one attack. 

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Yeah, probably not doing that 
much damage. 

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So it is, it is effective. 
He's got meaning it it. 

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It's one of those it has been 
the right circumstances if your 

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right circumstances be useful if
you're not. 

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Yeah. 
And of course in 4th edition, I 

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mean the majority of troops have
only one attack. 

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So in that sense it's. 
You know, and combats were drawn

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out. 
So it's kind of probably A1 turn

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effect, you know, but but you 
know, a nice spell, just just 

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very situational. 
And then the last one stream of 

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corruption that was a fire 
dragon. 

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That note, was it the fire 
dragon temple? 

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I think it was the fire dragon 
template. 

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Oh, it's a smaller one. 
Is it a smaller one? 

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OK, but similar shape? 
Was it as a teardrop? 

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And yeah, and pretty much it's a
kind of a dragon breath style 

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attack, you know, any models 
more than half under are 

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affected. 
And it could be costing close. 

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Or I don't never defined whether
it could or not, but yeah. 

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But interestingly, if if you're 
toughness 6 or less, you're 

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basically dead if you're 
affected or as if you're 

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toughness 7 or more, it's D6 
wounds instead. 

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So if you're high toughness that
that kind of protected you, but 

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you know, there weren't a lot of
things in the game that had a 

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toughness 7 or more. 
You know, John, I think it's 

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toughness 6. 
So you know, it's it's not 

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really much. 
And weirdly, the only change 

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between that and the spells when
they, you know, expanded the 

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decks for the chaos books for 
the chaos books, Sorry, was I 

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think it's stream of is it 
stream of one of them? 

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I can't remember which one it is
off the top of the head. 

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I think it was stream of 
corruption. 

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Suddenly magic armor can save 
you, whereas previously there 

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was no safe. 
But they they, they obviously 

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thought, oh it's a bit too 
powerful. 

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It's adding magic armor can 
protect you. 

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Yeah, I guess we'll look at that
when we review. 

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The as well through the through 
the individual ones where they 

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added in a magic safe. 
What do you say? 

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Cool, sorry, cool. 
I. 

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Mean how do you roll to save? 
It's a kill spell. 

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It's not causes causing any 
wounds unless you have tout of 

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seven. 
Oh yeah, stream crossing. 

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Yeah. 
So it's literally just so 

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anything on the template, it's 
an initiative. 

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Test 6 always fails. 
So if so, you know, your high 

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initiative stuff's probably more
likely to survive, but it's only

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if you run with six then then 
you're dead. 

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So good against dwarfs and low 
initiative, yes. 

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Yeah, but how do you roll the 
armour save? 

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Well, I guess that's just 
literally the. 

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I guess you're the Yeah, it must
be for the number of wounds you 

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have. 
You roll an armour save I guess.

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But you don't take wounds and. 
Such well, one of it says 

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instant death. 
So if you're 1 moon model, it's 

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just one one armour save. 
Yeah, it's multiple wounds and 

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you I guess you take one per 
wound. 

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I would guess it maybe it's not 
that one that adds in the magic 

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armor side. 
Yeah, it is that one. 

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I have it up here. 
It is that one. 

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I'm just curious because there 
are other spell descriptions 

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that kill automatically and then
they say you can't save versus 

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something that kills, you can 
only save versus stuff that 

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wounds. 
So I was just interested why 

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they added that. 
Yeah, it's a bit inconsistent. 

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Probably wanted to tone it down.
Well, there's not much of A tone

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because there's not much of A 
magic army you can get really in

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in the game. 
There's only only a few. 

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It's not like magic weapons 
where there's 10A penny, there's

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a few you're done. 
So maybe that was kind of an 

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afterthought and added on there.
Maybe didn't think about it that

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much. 
You know, different authors 

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necessarily think things through
fully. 

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You know, add. 
It on Yeah, well, never happened

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before. 
Yeah, exactly. 

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So yeah, maybe could be a course
of some debate when the if the 

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issue can comes up, Someone Like
You said, Jorgen could claim 

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that OK, no wounds are caused as
such so I there's no roles to be

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had for save. 
But of course in the late 

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version they explicitly state 
that there is a save. 

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00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:52,600
So that's slightly inconsistent.
Rare circumstance that isn't it 

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things. 
Really. 

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Yeah, so. 
And the solution of course, they

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claimed was to be useless. 
Roll a die and just decide it 

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and get on with it. 
So roll and die to find if 

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you're going to roll a die. 
Yeah, I. 

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Just want to roll the die for 
the army. 

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Yeah. 
And I guess they never made an 

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FAQ on that one that we know of.
It's possibly very much 

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retrospective and you know, a 
little while after maybe. 

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Interesting if I tidy that up 
for 5th edition. 

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I've never really played chaos 
in 5th edition so I don't. 

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I was money undead in 5th 
edition. 

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So you played a lot more 5th 
edition than I? 

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The exact same wording in 5th 
and I still don't know why. 

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00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:52,120
Yeah I I personally interpret it
like if you have the D6 wound 

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since dead then you can take the
armour save. 

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00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:58,760
That's how I played it. 
Yeah, fair enough. 

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Fair dues. 
Yeah. 

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One of those, you know, agree 
something. 

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You're an opponent, I guess. 
Yeah. 

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And if you're a regular user of 
the spell, you know, with 

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regular opponents, I'm sure 
you're going to soon come to a 

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decision on what's fair on that 
one. 

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00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,960
Yeah. 
But again, it's because it's 

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template, it's fairly easy to 
get to avoid, you know, you just

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stay well clear of that sort. 
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty nasty, 

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so you better be aware. 
Yeah, I think, I think the 

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00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,280
Nergal ones generally you can 
get them off, they're kind of 

227
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,680
nasty, but they're easy to avoid
though, Yeah, short range and 

228
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,560
short range and yeah, not so not
so effective as possibly other 

229
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,360
ones. 
Yeah, yeah. 

230
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,920
And I guess the, the Costas are 
usually barely slow moving as 

231
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,520
well. 
I guess you can get it around 

232
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,160
that, but they're not the we. 
I mean, they can. 

233
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,640
Still ride monsters and steeds 
and stuff so they're they're no 

234
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,360
slower moving than. 
But the greater demon doesn't 

235
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,520
fly. 
That's the difference I. 

236
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:03,600
See what you mean? 
Yes. 

237
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:04,680
Yeah. 
For the great demon sense. 

238
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,320
Yeah, I guess so. 
Yeah, I see what you mean now. 

239
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,200
Yes, absolutely. 
I'll see I guess the plague 

240
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,520
bearers if they are casting they
are not the fastest either 

241
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,320
because we didn't quite cover 
that one, but I think we did 

242
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,720
that at some previous point. 
But Chaos is unique of course 

243
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,520
that their their units can cause
spells. 

244
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,480
I suppose, I suppose the good 
thing about a unit plate bearers

245
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,840
doing these spells is because 
some of them are template or 

246
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,160
area of effect. 
At the short range, you can pick

247
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,960
which plate bearer the effect 
comes from. 

248
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,040
So if you have a long line, you 
can kind of say, all right, 

249
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:39,920
well, that's going to get much. 
So I'll cast it from that one, 

250
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:46,320
as it were. 
But yeah, it's they're not the 

251
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,800
best hand of spells for chaos. 
I don't think is, is what we're 

252
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,520
getting at really. 
You know, the other powers have 

253
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,560
more powerful spells, I think. 
And in fact, in actual fact, 

254
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,720
Slanish, reading through them 
recently of of change my mind on

255
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,160
slanish. 
I used to think Slanish spells 

256
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,520
were a bit rubbish, but I've 
kind of decided they're actually

257
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:08,640
pretty good. 
Which leads us into see, I can 

258
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:09,240
segue. 
Excellent. 

259
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,960
So Slannish's 4 spells then are 
acquiescence, which I could 

260
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,080
never pronounce as a child. 
It was a horrible word. 

261
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:29,840
Yeah, Acquiescence I used to 
call it Beam of Slannish, Fleshy

262
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,040
Curse and Pervain of Slannish. 
Really sad. 

263
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,560
I had to look at what Pervain 
was as well. 

264
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:42,760
There we go. 
So acquiescence is is that the 

265
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,880
close? 
Yeah, that's one who has to 

266
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,040
reach out and touch. 
So victims are only equal to or 

267
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,880
under their initial on the D6 or
all their characteristics are 

268
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,160
half and subject to stupidity, 
weirdly on the card. 

269
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,280
Yeah. 
So when you're on the conference

270
00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:02,040
they say a dispel will negate 
the stupidity but but surely the

271
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,680
the would also negate the half 
characteristics as well? 

272
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,079
So just generally A dispel will 
dispel the effects of this 

273
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:08,599
spell. 
Do you even need to put that on 

274
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:10,800
the card? 
Yeah, that's a bit. 

275
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,800
I guess maybe, I guess maybe the
argument is that midterm it 

276
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,079
would get rid of the stupidity, 
if you see what I mean. 

277
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,160
So when you do so maybe that's 
the kind of thing. 

278
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,520
But I don't think I think that's
needless wording on the card is 

279
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,599
1. 
Yeah, it it very useful. 

280
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:29,960
I think that 1/2 characteristics
is terrible. 

281
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,760
You know, half wounds, half, you
know, rounding up, obviously 

282
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,720
because you only have one wound,
you half that you round up. 

283
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,040
And of course, it makes 
stupidity much more likely to 

284
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:38,360
take place as well. 
Yeah. 

285
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,400
Absolutely with characteristics 
with leadership half it's it's a

286
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:46,600
horrible spell. 
Then beam of slanish is A2 

287
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,520
power. 
Sorry, just say acquiescence is 

288
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:56,080
1 power spell, 2 power, 24 inch 
range and it's a single model 

289
00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:02,280
again and it pretty much does 
the same thing except this one 

290
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,120
is you take a lead trip test on 
3D6 and then you catch some 

291
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,480
stupidity. 
Doesn't mention that dispelling 

292
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,760
it will get rid of the stupidity
on this one, so obviously they 

293
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,600
can't fall into their own trap. 
Yeah, they're not even. 

294
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,360
They're consistent with the. 
Yeah, again, that never 

295
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:21,280
happened. 
Yes, fleshy curse. 

296
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:22,800
Yeah. 
That's a nice name. 

297
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,960
Or maybe not a nice name. 
Juicy name. 

298
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:29,680
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

299
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,600
In actual fact, that's. 
I'm sure that you don't come to 

300
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:34,680
this, so I'm going to steal this
something. 

301
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,480
That name disappears. 
The spell remains when the name 

302
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,280
disappears later on. 
Snow. 

303
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,440
Yeah. 
Then this is 2D6 Tuffany's hest 

304
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,440
or the victims turning to spawn.
And these are spawn of battle 

305
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,240
magic rules, not spawn obviously
of chaos supplement rules. 

306
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,240
So they're really it's not as 
nasty turning into a spawn. 

307
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,040
It's still pretty, you know, 
horrendous and same sort of 

308
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,200
principle. 
We know 2D6 movement and random 

309
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,600
attacks. 
But yeah, it's not got the cards

310
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,360
obviously for for giving gifts. 
Yeah, it's basically just two D6

311
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:10,040
stuff in his test. 
We turned into a sport. 

312
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,840
Yeah and yeah and of course 
that's a non reversible effect. 

313
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,440
So we true module module it's 
got. 

314
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,840
Yeah, I always found that weird 
because in my head, it's only in

315
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,040
my head obviously, which is a 
weird place. 

316
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,720
Don't go there, but but in my 
head, that's more of a zinch, 

317
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,160
zinch sort of thing. 
Turning someone into a spawn. 

318
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,400
I always like there's the sort 
of change as well. 

319
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,280
I've always thought that really 
should be a zinch sword to my to

320
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,080
my thinking, you know, he's the 
Lord of China. 

321
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,920
But I know all the powers do 
dabbling do have chaos sport but

322
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,800
it just seemed to me it is a bit
of a OK not with that lame but 

323
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,800
the effect to me is more resinch
sort of kind of spell. 

324
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,880
I guess Lanish is into weird 
body stuff so that sounds. 

325
00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:02,560
Well, yeah, it's to enjoy your 
model big penis running around. 

326
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:07,240
I don't know. 
The last one then Pervain of 

327
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,280
Slannish. 
So yeah, I did my look up. 

328
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,640
Pervain was a dance. 
I never knew that. 

329
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,080
I've never really worried about 
names of dances really. 

330
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:18,040
They go pervain was a dance and 
that's an entrapment once it 

331
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,440
basically it's kind of like some
of the grey spells where it's a 

332
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,440
leadership test 2D6 and if they 
fail they can't do anything. 

333
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,960
So, so Grey have a variation of 
those, but a couple of 

334
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,080
variations of 1 where they can't
do any one where they dance and 

335
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,480
dance with despair, isn't it? 
So they have very similar 

336
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,200
spells. 
Great. 

337
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:40,600
But it's that kind of principle.
And yeah, just kind of locks you

338
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,000
up, which is a pain in the rear 
end. 

339
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,120
It's not just kind of it holds 
you there, but you can still do 

340
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,360
stuff. 
No, you just can't do anything. 

341
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,640
You're done. 
Nasty. 

342
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,200
Yeah. 
And then it's then Zinch. 

343
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:57,480
I guess we go to Bolt of Change.
Boone. 

344
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,040
A Zinch, pink fire, Zinch and 
Zinch's firestorm. 

345
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,640
We'll take a break there, I 
guess, because we've got 4 

346
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,640
minutes left and I'm not going 
to get through all of them. 

347
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:13,240
No, I think so, yeah. 
We might sneak in a break here. 

348
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:20,400
So we will round off the sort of
initial spells and then Jurgen 

349
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,960
will guide us into the Extended 
Improved so. 

350
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,120
Most of the are exactly the same
though. 

351
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,560
Yeah, yeah, you've got 18 more 
spells to do. 

352
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,400
Yeah, Yeah. 
You know why we've been doing 

353
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,560
this? 
We've done like 10 or maybe 20. 

354
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,600
You know 18 is a good number to 
still go through. 

355
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,120
So, but yeah, since you have 
covered a few that we might be 

356
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,440
able to, yes, you know what I'm 
saying, That was all the same, 

357
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,880
but there's quite a few to. 
Look at SO. 

358
00:21:52,920 --> 00:22:01,080
Yeah, see you in a little while.
All right, so we're back. 

359
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:06,560
We've gone through 2/3 of the 
original spells you got in the 

360
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,280
box. 
So I guess take it away, Dave, 

361
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,520
from finance. 
Yeah. 

362
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,480
So as said, it's Bolt of Change,
Buddha Zinch, Pink Fire, Zinch 

363
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:25,440
Zinch's Firestorm. 
So we're bolt of Change, single 

364
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:33,720
model effect, two power, 12 inch
range and basically first fixing

365
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,560
path has to take a toughest test
on TD6 or they become a steaming

366
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,960
pile of bubbling goo. 
Lovely. 

367
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,400
Yeah, another another, no 
wounds, nothing like that. 

368
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:53,600
It's just you just gooey tastic.
So you know, 12 inch range would

369
00:22:53,600 --> 00:23:00,320
seem prohibitive, but you know, 
if you've got a zinch sort of 

370
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,000
flying around on a disc, it 
makes range less of a less of a 

371
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,920
an issue. 
You know, cheap flying ability. 

372
00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:09,040
That can't be cool. 
That's under you. 

373
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,600
And as far as I recall, that was
not a very uncommon sight if you

374
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:20,120
face. 
Yeah, Boonezinch is probably one

375
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,120
of the best, at least this 
version of Boone. 

376
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:25,200
This is the one that changes. 
I'll let Jurgen discuss the 

377
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,560
changes. 
Not to steal his Thunder, but 

378
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,320
this is the the spell that 
changes. 

379
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,440
So Boonezinch in this version of
the chaos decks, So the the the 

380
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:41,600
early decks, let's say one power
and basically you gain a college

381
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,960
deck spell if you cast it. 
But it doesn't say you can only 

382
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,320
have one college spell at a 
time. 

383
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,480
So you could cast it, you know, 
every, every magic phase in 

384
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,160
effect and gain another spell. 
So you've got a one like a level

385
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,760
1 wizard. 
You can sort of have a massive, 

386
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,840
vast range of college deck 
spells. 

387
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,240
It also doesn't say you have to 
stick to the same deck every 

388
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,720
time you cast. 
So you could go between the 

389
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,480
decks. 
And you know, obviously some 

390
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,320
decks are going to be more 
effective than others. 

391
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,240
So I think you're probably going
to be taking Amethyst Celestial.

392
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,040
Great, Maybe if you want to have
a bit of speed. 

393
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,880
Yeah, but probably, let's be 
honest. 

394
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,440
Yeah, probably not going to be 
doing the Jade, let's be honest.

395
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,920
Yeah, there's like one or two 
great spells in Jade. 

396
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,720
The rest of Pooh, well, when 
compared to others, let's say. 

397
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,040
So you're probably not going to 
be doing that one. 

398
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,640
But very good for me. 
It's a great spell, you know, 

399
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,360
getting other spells very handy,
very handy indeed. 

400
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:54,000
Pink fire pink, not pink via 
pink fire of zinch one power 

401
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,520
spell, 6 inch range. 
So again, a really short, very 

402
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:04,080
short range single model effect.
Oh, it's not moving strikes 

403
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,800
first one in the path D6 hits 
with the strength of four plus 

404
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,640
D6. 
So up to so it could be 5 might 

405
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:16,520
be 10 whole range in between. 
So that's pretty powerful, yes. 

406
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,480
OK, it's only hitting a single 
model, so it's not hitting an 

407
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,760
entire unit. 
You know, if you could split the

408
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,880
the hits out across the entire 
that'd be really good. 

409
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,400
But you can't. 
So it's single model, but very 

410
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,760
good for getting rid of, you 
know, your Wizards and single 

411
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,480
wandering heroes free handed. 
And then the last one, Zinch's 

412
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:42,600
Firestorm 3 power up 24 inch 
range model or unit. 

413
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,280
But you're probably only going 
to cast it a unit. 

414
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,200
Place a template any model 
touch, not any model more than 

415
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,760
half under which most template 
this is any model touched by the

416
00:25:52,760 --> 00:26:01,560
template takes a single strength
five hit and for every 3 wounds 

417
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,880
cause it's not all it's not for 
every 3 casualties, it's free 

418
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,680
for all three wounds cause so if
you take a wound off a multi 

419
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,560
wound creature that counts 
towards the three yeah. 

420
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,720
And for every three who's caused
you get a pink horror and of 

421
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,840
course the annoyance that is you
get 1 pink horror, then you get 

422
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,680
2 blue horrors. 
So you know so that that's a 

423
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,520
very annoying 1. 
You could get a very big unit 

424
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,320
quite quickly with that one, 
obviously similar, similar to 

425
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,920
similar to plague wind in the 
sense of it creates plague 

426
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,680
bearers, but obviously because 
of the division of pink horrors 

427
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,200
into blue horrors, it just it's 
more of a pain in the rear end 

428
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,720
because you go from no unit 
that's sunny. 

429
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,560
What's going on? 
If it's a starting the game pink

430
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,840
unit, you know what's happening,
You know, you can see I'm not 

431
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,520
actually going to start killing 
that just yet because or or you 

432
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,960
try to get on with it and kill 
them off and get rid of the blue

433
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,200
horrors as quick as you can. 
But that one is kind of, oh, the

434
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,120
pink horrors have come from 
nowhere. 

435
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,720
And then you kill pink horrors. 
Oh, now there's like the blue 

436
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:58,600
horror. 
What's going on? 

437
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,600
Yeah. 
So it's it's, yeah, it's, it's. 

438
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,560
Kind of not. 
I believe you get hit by that 

439
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,360
one most likely. 
Yeah, that's, that's the initial

440
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,480
chaos spells, Yeah. 
So that was what you had to 

441
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,240
settle with for a while during 
4th. 

442
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,920
But then something happened, 
Jurgen, you got the. 

443
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:21,400
I think Jurgen happened. 
Yeah, Jurgen happened. 

444
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,720
Yeah. 
Something happened. 

445
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,880
We got a big chaos box and it 
wasn't just like the other army 

446
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:37,640
books as most people know. 
A big box with full of gifts 

447
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:44,360
rewards and a new new decks for 
the Chaos Sorcerers with 10 

448
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:50,240
spells each. 
And I, I guess the box itself, 

449
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,040
you know, deserves a bit more 
attention perhaps with the chaos

450
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,920
gifts and everything, but we're 
focusing on these spells today, 

451
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,880
so yeah. 
I think I will give Prudh. 

452
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,280
I'm in the same order as Dave. 
So we start with the Nergal 

453
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:15,040
magic and just like with the 
original 4 spells, the Nergal 

454
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,360
deck has a lot of low range 
spells. 

455
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:26,280
So in my opinion it is the 
weakest of the chaos magic 

456
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:31,520
decks, but there's still some 
nice spells in there. 

457
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,600
Do you want me to go through 
each spell or what? 

458
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,840
How do you? 
Well, I mean it's if you want to

459
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,120
do the highlights or the special
ones. 

460
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,920
I think we, it's up to you 
really how you want to do it. 

461
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,040
If we go through everyone, maybe
we don't have time in this 

462
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,960
session to go through all of 
them, but yeah, so yeah. 

463
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,560
I'll do the highlights that 
yeah, yeah. 

464
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:06,240
So the Nurgle deck, we have a 
power one spell that's called 

465
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:14,480
the cloud of Flies and it has a 
short range of 12, but it the 

466
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:20,080
targets either a unit or a model
with and the victim may neither 

467
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,840
move nor shoot did it. 
As we know, that's very 

468
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,080
powerful, and for only one 
power, I think that's a great 

469
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,600
spell. 
Yeah, a lot of those sort of 

470
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,080
analogues to that one, but I 
don't think it's very common 

471
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:41,160
that they have one power spells 
that do all that because maybe a

472
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,920
few. 
But yeah, that's very good of 

473
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,720
course, because you know, take 
the NS miss most powerful unit 

474
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,640
and you basically neutralized it
for as long as it's 

475
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,480
permisective, so. 
Yeah. 

476
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:59,920
And then there's one that I like
to have on a high level wizard. 

477
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:07,640
It's called Fly Swarm and Power 
One, and the first wound 

478
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,440
inflicted on the sorcerer is 
automatically saved and if he is

479
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,920
hit by something that kills 
outright he will be saved on a 

480
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,920
roll of four up. 
I think that's very good for a 

481
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,320
power one spell. 
That's great to have on a unit 

482
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,320
of play. 
Bearers of course, but very nice

483
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:35,400
on a high level sorcerer. 
And the final one I want to take

484
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:41,560
from the Nergledeck then is 
Rancid Visitation power 2, range

485
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:49,560
18 and can be cast on any unit 
causing 2D6 string four hits. 

486
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,480
But the big thing here is that 
no armor cells are allowed. 

487
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,080
I think that's very great for A2
power spell. 

488
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:04,680
That's. 
True, so you said you thought 

489
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,640
maybe No, it was not the most 
powerful of the three. 

490
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,160
Which chaos pause did you play 
at the time or did you do mix or

491
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,400
how was your? 
Back then I mostly played the 

492
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:26,360
cinch, now what I I actually 
prefer playing slanish. 

493
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,440
OK, so Nergal hasn't been your 
main chaos. 

494
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,480
Power No. 
I I've played it a bit, I've 

495
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:40,600
tried it, I I even built a 
Nergal army, but I'm not a fan 

496
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,880
of their spells. 
No, OK. 

497
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,960
Yeah, I think, yeah. 
Yeah, I think with Nergal, the I

498
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,360
I love the mark power. 
The plus one's toughness is 

499
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,680
brilliant. 
But yeah, the spells are a bit 

500
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,240
Neff. 
They, they feel pretty 

501
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,280
characteristic. 
I mean, the, the names are 

502
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,160
disgusting and cool and 
everything and I, I guess sort 

503
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,880
of the short range and they're 
being slow and just, you know, 

504
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,400
slow disgusting things moving 
towards you. 

505
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,440
Hard to do like I do like the 
fact there's cloud of flies and 

506
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,400
fly swarm. 
Maybe the same thing really. 

507
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,120
Maybe the swarm is slightly 
bigger, I don't know. 

508
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:30,880
Yeah, good point. 
Yeah, so I mean, cool fun, but 

509
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,360
if you want to maximize the 
power, maybe you know, isn't the

510
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,440
way to go. 
But definitely, you know, you're

511
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,480
giving your opponent a hard time
to actually kill a lot of 

512
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,560
models. 
They're tough. 

513
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:48,080
They're going to it's hard to 
score a lot of points from a no 

514
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,840
Good on me I guess, but you can 
avoid them if you like. 

515
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,120
Play would also something you're
going to be running around and 

516
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:56,920
probably not getting into 
combat. 

517
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,960
Yeah, that's the problem with 
the spells as well, because a 

518
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,600
normal Nergal army is slow 
moving and because of that I 

519
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,280
want spells with a good range. 
Yeah, but these spells don't 

520
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,800
have that. 
So it it doesn't help the army 

521
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,280
that much. 
Yeah, that's true. 

522
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,800
If the enemy is maneuverable, he
can avoid both combat and the 

523
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,720
spells. 
So it's, you know, not going to 

524
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,880
be too much fun for the Nergal 
player not having much to do, I 

525
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,480
guess. 
Yeah. 

526
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,040
That's why you take Dark magic 
instead. 

527
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,680
Yeah, yeah, you could do that. 
Yeah. 

528
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,680
So that's an option, of course. 
Right. 

529
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,600
So Naugle, yeah, fun. 
And you know, it's in spirit, 

530
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,200
but might not be the easiest one
to pull off. 

531
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,800
But if any listeners you know 
have been having great 

532
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,800
experience with Naugle spells, 
let us know. 

533
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,080
Continuing with the slanish deck
then, right? 

534
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:07,160
Yeah. 
So I want to point out a thing 

535
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:15,719
before we talk about the spells.
First of all, the casters are 

536
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,960
fast, so range isn't as much of 
an issue here. 

537
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,360
You have access to states of 
Slanish and you have mounted 

538
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,199
demonets. 
And another thing, the mark of 

539
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:36,719
Slanish for their spell coasters
is, well, it's geared towards 

540
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,679
defense and it's probably the 
best defense in the game. 

541
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,320
And for those who don't that 
don't know, any unit within 12 

542
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,000
cannot shoot or cast spells 
against the spell coaster. 

543
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:58,080
So that's another reason it's 
very powerful when you write up 

544
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,880
and they can't do anything about
it. 

545
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:05,960
Yeah. 
And that helps making Saanich a 

546
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,920
lot stronger, of course, but it 
also help with the short range 

547
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,160
spells, making them a lot more 
powerful in my opinion, yeah. 

548
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:18,280
Yeah, yeah. 
Because the steeds, they have 

549
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,440
sort of a ridiculous move, is 
it? 

550
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:26,040
Well, yeah, that's about the 
highest you can get on a land 

551
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,160
mover. 
So sweet. 

552
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:35,720
So the we have the four original
spells like he, like Dave said, 

553
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,360
and there's another few that's 
quite powerful. 

554
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,120
There's a spell called Lash of 
Slanish. 

555
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:51,960
It's a power one spell that hits
its target for 2D63. 

556
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,240
Four hits. 
It's only range 8, but as I 

557
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:59,840
said, movement isn't an issue, 
so I think it's very good for 

558
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,280
its power. 
Then there's the. 

559
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,680
Yeah, I'm not. 
I'm not sure how to pronounce 

560
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:12,280
this cacophonic chore. 
Help me there, Dave. 

561
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:13,800
Choir. 
Choir. 

562
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,600
Choir. 
Yeah, OK, yeah. 

563
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:26,480
So yeah, all enemy models within
D6 inches of the caster sustains

564
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,160
a strength five hit with no 
armor saves allowed, not even 

565
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,240
magic armor. 
It's also a power one spell. 

566
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,400
So this is one of my favorite 
spells to get on a spell 

567
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,640
coaster. 
You write up in between 2 units 

568
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:47,280
that can't hit you and then you 
just roll off these and kills. 

569
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,560
Against Knights or something 
Should be proper nasty. 

570
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:59,000
Yeah, so a very powerful spell 
and it's only power one as well.

571
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,760
Yeah. 
And then they have the bondage 

572
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:16,760
of Slanish, and so it's another 
power to range 12 and the unit 

573
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,920
can't do anything. 
But those are powerful spells 

574
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:28,880
for a Chaos army. 
And the final one I have I want 

575
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:37,120
to talk about is the Suker of 
Chaos. 

576
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,120
Is that right? 
Succor soccer? 

577
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,880
It's another one as bad as it. 
Sounds this sounds something 

578
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,360
else. 
There is still extra likey, but 

579
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:53,680
not that. 
No matter how one felt, range 12

580
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,000
and this is 1 you cast on a 
friendly unit instead and it 

581
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,000
adds plus one to your to hit 
roles in combat. 

582
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:05,240
Yeah, it's very nice for a Chaos
army which are trying to hit as 

583
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:11,280
many models in combat as 
possible and then Power 1, so 

584
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,600
they have a lot of low power 
spells. 

585
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,080
And then we have the final, 
which Dave has already 

586
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,960
mentioned, but it's called Chaos
Spawner, Yes. 

587
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,400
And then, yeah, the what do you 
say? 

588
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,240
Fleshy curse or what? 
Yeah, it was fleshy, cursed for 

589
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:37,000
which is just horrible sounding.
Yeah, they updated the name. 

590
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,120
Can't think why. 
Yeah, but it is pretty much the 

591
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,920
same spell. 
Yeah, yeah. 

592
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:51,720
And yeah, I have killed or I 
have turned vampire Lords and 

593
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,360
stuff into spawns and that's a 
very powerful spell. 

594
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,680
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah. 

595
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:05,800
So I think having super DD 
slannish is also running around 

596
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,800
behind your ranks or close to 
them will make anyone a bit 

597
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:17,240
nervous of what's going on. 
So, you know, when you choose 

598
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:21,880
spells, are those the ones you 
would sort of go to spells if 

599
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,200
you could choose which one were 
were there any spells in those 

600
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,200
texts that you would immediately
discard that are notably weaker 

601
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,200
than the others, or are they 
mostly all useful, would you 

602
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,800
say? 
Well, most are useful, but like 

603
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:44,960
the slicing shots of slammage, 
it's it's a nice spell, but it's

604
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:50,280
basically rancid visitation. 
But it allows armor saves, so 

605
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,640
that's a big difference. 
And it's still power to, it has 

606
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,520
a slightly longer range, but I 
would prefer having no armor 

607
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:06,160
saves allowed. 
And then the one I'd never like 

608
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:11,680
get getting is the Pavain of 
Slanish. 

609
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,680
It's so easy to avoid. 
Yeah, it's a normal leadership 

610
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,720
test, and that's too easy to 
avoid the effects of a power to 

611
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:25,280
spell, in my opinion. 
OK. 

612
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,360
So would you agree, Dave, how 
much, how much did you play by 

613
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,480
now? 
Did you play a lot of chaos or 

614
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,240
do you? 
I've played Chaos 

615
00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:40,400
intermittently. 
I was, I was more of a zinch 

616
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:47,320
player or Noble player and 
noble, and really it was prior 

617
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,880
to the box coming to the Chaos 
Army's box coming out. 

618
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:56,000
So it was for me, it was the 
first four spells I was, I was 

619
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,680
mainly using, I kind of like the
vein of slanish as long as it's 

620
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,680
used against the right troops. 
So if you're looking at, you 

621
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,760
know, probably humans and 
anything lesser say Scaven, 

622
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,280
goblins, you know, that sort of 
thing, then it's a pain in the 

623
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,920
arse spell. 
Anything with highly, you know, 

624
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,640
8 plus, yeah, OK. 
It's less effective, 100% I 

625
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,440
agree. 
So it's got to be used like my 

626
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:23,480
spell. 
It's got to be used in the right

627
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:24,840
circumstances. 
Yeah. 

628
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,800
So depending on your opponents, 
maybe that's the keeper or 1 you

629
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,240
would discard. 
Agree, I I think from comments 

630
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:39,160
that you've made as an empire 
generally in the past has I 

631
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,280
think it's not a spell you'd 
want to see in the hand of the 

632
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,480
chaos clouds. 
No, no, I think I did encounter 

633
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,280
that one a few times and it 
could be pretty frustrating. 

634
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:56,840
Yeah, yeah, right. 
So moving on to the final one, 

635
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:03,480
sort of master of Chaos magic. 
Yeah, the Tinch bells. 

636
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,120
The Tinch bells, The entire deck
is quite fun. 

637
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:17,120
And just like with Slanish, we 
have fast moving sorcerers with 

638
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,720
the discs, so range isn't as 
much of an issue as with the 

639
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:29,920
noodle sorcerers. 
And I want to pick out quite a 

640
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,000
few in this deck because I I 
like them. 

641
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,640
Yeah, they're quite unique. 
And as Dave mentioned, some have

642
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:42,520
been changed and not always for 
the better, but different in and

643
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:48,520
still good. 
So the first spell blue fire 

644
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:54,760
cinch D6 strength, four hits nor
with normal almost save, but 

645
00:42:54,760 --> 00:43:01,160
power 1 range 18, quite good. 
And you have the bolt of change,

646
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:09,480
which is unchanged, but killing 
a model to power 2 range 12, 

647
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,160
they have to roll against 
toughness on 2D6. 

648
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,720
So 90% of the time it kills a 
model that's very powerful 

649
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:22,280
against the enemy spell 
coasters, even an enemy general 

650
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:32,760
or something like that. 
So Bernard cinch different power

651
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:39,000
1 still and it's changed to be 
the chaos player may draw the 

652
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,560
three magic cards and cast a 
further spell immediately if he 

653
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,960
wants to. 
I think this is actually a must 

654
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,400
dispel spell, yeah? 
Yes. 

655
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:57,840
It's only power 1 so at worst 
you will get a new card and you 

656
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,960
could get unlucky and get a 
dispel card but it's some with 

657
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:09,840
medium luck you are getting 2 
power cards and getting ahead in

658
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,680
the magic face is quite 
powerful. 

659
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,360
I think this is a great power 
one spell. 

660
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,040
I would love it if it was the 
same as before, but even now I 

661
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,240
think it's a great spell. 
Particularly if you compare it 

662
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:29,040
to the dark magic version that 
came in when they split out the 

663
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,360
necromantic spells. 
So the dark magic version, only 

664
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,760
the wizard that gets the cards 
can use them and there's a 

665
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,600
chance of death, whereas the 
boomers each same power, only 

666
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,560
one power, but any wizard can. 
So if you get it for a level 1 

667
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,920
wizard, it's still useful 
because it's worthwhile getting 

668
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,920
the cards and you're not going 
to risk death as well. 

669
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,320
So I actually think if you 
compare the two, it becomes an 

670
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,320
even better spell by comparison 
of the alternative version of 

671
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,320
it. 
Of course, you could be really 

672
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,760
unfortunate and go for Chaos 
man, and you get both those two 

673
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,480
spells, but now the spells, 
which would be rather 

674
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,240
unfortunate, but you know, the 
chances of that are pretty 

675
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:15,840
remote. 
Yeah, a good one, yeah. 

676
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,000
Then a quite simple one gift of 
chaos power one. 

677
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:28,760
But you may take a chaos gift 
which actually very powerful 

678
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,360
most of the time. 
I don't know if we talked about 

679
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,840
those gifts the last time, but 
there's some really powerful 

680
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,040
ones. 
Like you. 

681
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,560
You can turn one of your models,
and it doesn't have to be a 

682
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,880
character into a free chaos 
bomb. 

683
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,680
That's very good. 
And there's something that makes

684
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,520
you immune to magic. 
There's regeneration. 

685
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,400
There's a lot of good stuff. 
So you don't want the chaos 

686
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,200
player to draw extra chaos 
gifts? 

687
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,120
No, I don't remember. 
I I don't think we went in 

688
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,520
through the gifts in detail, did
we did last time. 

689
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,360
No, well, they kind of fall in 
this weird area, don't they? 

690
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,760
They're not. 
They're not like rewards, which 

691
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,640
are in effect magic items, so 
they're in game. 

692
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:24,640
So maybe we want to do a brief 
session on the weirdness that is

693
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:31,000
the Chaos Army book. 
Not well, no, not not the books,

694
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,720
put the box set in general, yes.
So, so the other things that you

695
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:36,680
got, I mean, it's pretty much 
gifts. 

696
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,280
We could do rewards in that as 
well. 

697
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,160
And then, you know, not do them 
when we look at magic items, 

698
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,600
maybe, yeah. 
Right. 

699
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,600
So yeah, cool. 
Yeah, and then we have Glean 

700
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:57,080
Magic, which is power to range 
24 and it steals a spell from an

701
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,480
enemy wizard. 
It's very fun and it's actually 

702
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,520
very good because as long as you
have stolen that spell, you 

703
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,160
don't need to cast it. 
And then the enemy, we sort of 

704
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,080
can't cast that spell. 
Yeah, against like undead that 

705
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,400
are really dependent on certain 
spells, I guess that could be 

706
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,720
really great or annoying for 
anyone, but those who base their

707
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:25,440
tactics on specific spells could
be of course extra devastating 

708
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,880
to. 
Yeah, thankfully for opponents 

709
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,280
of Chaos, it's not. 
You can pick the spell 

710
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,560
automatically, random selection.
So it's not like you can cast it

711
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,000
and get rid of Van Hal's Dance 
McCall for the entire game. 

712
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,200
You may be able to see, but a 
random pick. 

713
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:44,640
Yeah. 
And that that's where it's 

714
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,800
beneficial that all of the. 
You know that the necromantic 

715
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:57,160
deck became its own thing 
because with the dark magic 

716
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,600
spells, yeah, no less of an 
issue. 

717
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,520
I'm going down a tangent. 
Doesn't really exist. 

718
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,400
Basically there's no tells with 
the cards as to which ones 

719
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,880
which. 
So that would be very dangerous 

720
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,040
if there was some sort of 
distinction between so like a 

721
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,520
dark magic card and necromantic 
card. 

722
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,080
Oh, I know it's that one. 
You can take it. 

723
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:21,600
That's least, you know, a, a 
safety net for, for an undead 

724
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:22,800
wizard. 
I'm particularly focused on 

725
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,040
undead wizard because obviously 
I do fight a bit, but it's a 

726
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,760
great and it's kind of like the 
reinvention of the original 

727
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,160
version of boon of Zinch, isn't 
it? 

728
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,720
It's it's kind of a, it's not 
the same spell, no, but a 

729
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:35,800
similar principle of gaining a 
spell. 

730
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,120
Yeah. 
And I think that's also one that

731
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,320
your opponent will always, you 
know, seriously consider if 

732
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,000
they're going to dispel or not 
not doing it. 

733
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,800
You know, that's very risky, so.
Well, jade was it might let them

734
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:55,160
do it. 
Not that rubbish spell. 

735
00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:03,240
It also locks you up. 
You, you can't once you've got 

736
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:06,360
one, if you can't sit again, you
lose the one you grab. 

737
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,040
So it's not like a game 
permanently. 

738
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,720
It's a temporary thing. 
You get the card and if song 

739
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:13,560
casts, then the original wizard 
gets the spell back if if 

740
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,520
someone spells it or, or if you 
cast it again. 

741
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,400
So yeah, it's it's not, it's not
a forever for the rest of the 

742
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:26,160
game situation. 
Yeah, but you can, because if 

743
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,760
you glean one spell, then you 
don't have if it is the most 

744
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,880
powerful spell, then you don't 
have to count either glean MAD 

745
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,720
or that spell for the rest of 
the game. 

746
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:40,560
I agree, I agree 100%. 
But yeah, it's, it's obviously 

747
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,840
it's not a absolute gotcha. 
It's not a kind of, you're 

748
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,480
definitely going to get it. 
It's there's a chance you're 

749
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:47,640
going to get the one you want to
get. 

750
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,680
But generally speaking, most of 
time, whatever spell you get, 

751
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,000
it's going to, you know, you're 
going to stop the opposing 

752
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,720
wizard from doing something. 
So it's it's always a good idea.

753
00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:00,360
Yeah, yeah, I really like it. 
And I I think it fits the theme 

754
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:08,160
of the Master of Sorcery. 
Very, and then we have one I 

755
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,240
like to use against enemy 
research and they will have to 

756
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:17,520
correct my on my wording again. 
Oh God, now you're awesome. 

757
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,000
Incandescent assassin. 
Perfect incandescent assassin, 

758
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,840
Yes. 
OK, so power to range 24. 

759
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,560
You pick a single model, the 
target rolls D6 and adds their 

760
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,280
weapon skill, while the Chaos 
sorcerer rolls D6 and adds 6. 

761
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,600
If you score higher, then you 
inflict a number of wounds equal

762
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,400
to the difference. 
And there's armor saves, but 

763
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:51,720
with a -, 3 modifier. 
Against most research they have 

764
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,640
a quite low weapon skill, three 
O 4. 

765
00:50:54,640 --> 00:51:00,160
So I like to this one too. 
Yeah, use as some kill enemy 

766
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,840
with soft spells. 
Yeah, we'll definitely make a 

767
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,520
post a bit nervous seeing that 
one coming. 

768
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,520
And would it be OK? 
Well I mean monsters have a lot 

769
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,520
of wounds, but if you have like 
a monster with high toughness 

770
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,240
but low weapon skill, could that
be kind of useful? 

771
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:29,800
Yeah, of course. 
Yeah, I think so, yeah. 

772
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,960
So, yeah, she's not even a 
toughness, is it? 

773
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,800
So yeah, that's that's probably 
one of the best uses of it, as 

774
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,680
it were. 
Anything with with with high 

775
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,440
wounds and low weapon skill. 
Yeah. 

776
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,560
Yeah, a giant, perhaps. 
Yeah, yeah. 

777
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:46,720
That's a great idea. 
Yeah. 

778
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,520
Yeah. 
And I suppose against trolls and

779
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,680
things like that as well maybe. 
Yeah. 

780
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,920
Yeah, yeah. 
Oh, that's good shell. 

781
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:05,840
That's fun. 
Yeah, we already talked about 

782
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:10,240
since Firestorm, it's the same 
and the one that I really like 

783
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,720
and the final one I want to lift
from the Cinch deck is the 

784
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:19,120
Shield of Fire. 
Oh yes yes, say power one spell 

785
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:24,800
and the sorcerer summons a fiery
shield to protect him and any 

786
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:29,240
enemy trying to hit him in 
combat must roll A6 to hit. 

787
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:34,480
And the next part is what I 
really like. 

788
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,360
If any enemy attacks the 
sorcerer with a magic weapon, on

789
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,240
a roll of 1 to hit, the weapon 
is destroyed. 

790
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:50,520
Yes, that would make anyone 
think twice about trying out 

791
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,240
that one. 
Yeah, I think that must be one 

792
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:57,880
of the best one power protection
spells around. 

793
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:04,560
Yes, close combat, certainly. 
Yeah, I I think it's great. 

794
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,160
It's it's definitely one that if
you've got a Lord flying around 

795
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:08,640
on a disc, I think it's a good 
shout. 

796
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,000
Look, I mean, Chaos Source was a
pretty good in close combat 

797
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,560
anyway. 
So, you know, sticking that on 

798
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,400
them, I think it's definitely a 
good shout. 

799
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:24,080
Yeah, So, yeah, solid deck. 
I guess it's the as it should 

800
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,240
be, of course, since they are 
supposed to be the OR Stan, 

801
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:30,600
she's the sister, the masters of
magic in a sense. 

802
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,120
All right, So yeah, we don't 
have too much time on this one, 

803
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,280
but maybe just a little bit. 
How how would your sort of magic

804
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,960
setup look like in an army? 
How many coasters did you have? 

805
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,280
What spell levels did you aim 
for? 

806
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:50,840
And so on, both of you. 
You can start Dave. 

807
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,920
Oh gosh, wasn't prepared for 
that. 

808
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,360
Cool. 
I unless he's undead. 

809
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,000
I'm pretty standard. 
I depend on size of the game. 

810
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:04,560
If it's like 1500 or lower I've 
probably got one, maybe 2 level 

811
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:11,280
2 or a level 1. 
Anything above that tends to be 

812
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:17,880
a level 4 and a level 2. 
And as said, I kind of flitted 

813
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,880
between. 
Zinch was where I began with 

814
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,600
Chaos really. 
I moved to Nergal because I was 

815
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,840
escaping player at heart and it 
fitted better. 

816
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,480
And then recently, probably more
recently, I've gone back to 

817
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:39,040
Zinch has been my my preference.
I do want to paint some 

818
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:43,640
demonettes and a keeper of 
secrets and they're going to be 

819
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,400
allies for my, for my dark 
health army probably. 

820
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:48,440
So they're cool. 
That's good. 

821
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,000
I like that. 
But yeah, generally as a level 4

822
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,320
and level 2, greater demons 
cause me an issue. 

823
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,320
I probably wouldn't include a 
greater demon unless I'm playing

824
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,520
4000 points. 
They'd be the majority of the 

825
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,680
extra 1000 points obviously, and
then end up with two level fours

826
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,760
and level 2. 
I wouldn't want a level. 

827
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,680
I wouldn't want a great team to 
be 1. 

828
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,600
Main spellcaster is what I'm 
getting at. 

829
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:15,560
It's it's not my style. 
Cool and Yuri yoga. 

830
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,040
Yeah, back. 
Yeah, back then I usually played

831
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:29,240
around 2500 points and the usual
setup would be two level three 

832
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:35,400
sources of cinch on discs and 
certain magic items to help out.

833
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:43,440
Nowadays when I play we usually 
go down to 2000 and I usually 

834
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,480
bring just like Dave, a level 4 
and a level 2 instead. 

835
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,440
The level 4 being the main 
caster and the level 2 more of a

836
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,440
dispelled scroll carrier sports 
caster. 

837
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,600
But I could see using two level 
freeze with slanish as well 

838
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,840
driving around being as fast as 
they are. 

839
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:17,080
It also depends whether I take 
demons or not because the demons

840
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:20,320
are spell casters and that also 
fills in. 

841
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,760
Yeah. 
And, and obviously also, it 

842
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,480
depends on who you're playing 
against. 

843
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,840
Yeah, if you're against dwarfs, 
it's not such a necessity to 

844
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,480
take a level 4. 
Necessity for level 4 would be 

845
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,200
mainly defensive. 
So it's making sure that you're 

846
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,120
not on the back foot on rolling 
for dispels. 

847
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:47,320
But against dwarfs, obviously 
there's no need to worry about 

848
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,720
that. 
So you know the the back report 

849
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:54,240
where they launched Chaos, you 
know, the the dudes, Richard 

850
00:56:54,240 --> 00:57:02,360
Halliwell, who was playing the 
Chaos player, he took level ones

851
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,960
and a unit of Pink Horizon that 
was just level 2. 

852
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,760
He had 6 I think in the inch. 
He was just level 2, didn't have

853
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,040
any level threes or fours, 
didn't need them because he 

854
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:17,000
didn't need that many. 
You know, there wasn't the worry

855
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,120
of the opposition spellcaster to
have to take into account. 

856
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,080
So it does depend on who I'm 
fighting as well. 

857
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,080
Yeah. 
And against wolves, yeah, 

858
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,440
probably. 
I'll drop down and save some 

859
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:27,640
points, which is always a good 
idea. 

860
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,600
And a chaos army because 
everything cost the earth. 

861
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,960
Yeah, we're running out of time 
now actually for this session. 

862
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,960
Maybe we should just have a 
break and maybe sort of a few 

863
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,520
finishing words. 
That's OK. 

864
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:47,200
So, yeah, we'll be back with the
the summarizing of this, you 

865
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:52,680
know, right. 
So we're back and just a few 

866
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:58,200
finishing words from our guests.
And Dave, I I haven't played 

867
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,120
chaos, so I'm not going to add 
anything. 

868
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:05,800
Just saying that I was 
definitely scared facing chaos 

869
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,960
and those disk riding sources 
that were hard to kill and 

870
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:16,160
extremely hard to pin down. 
So that was sort of on the 

871
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,280
receiving end. 
I was not happy about that. 

872
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:24,160
But if you got one down, it was 
reason to celebrate for sure. 

873
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:30,440
So for you guys, how important 
was magic for Chaos? 

874
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,480
Of course, that depends how you 
created your army. 

875
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,080
But if you had a like a level 4 
and a level 2 was the death of 

876
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,160
11/4, was that a disaster? 
Could you pull through? 

877
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:46,080
Well, and as you said, that 
depends on the army and what 

878
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:47,600
you're up against and stuff like
that. 

879
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:53,120
But most of the time I felt that
I relied quite heavily on my 

880
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,880
spell coasters, at least until I
got into close combat. 

881
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:05,720
So a level 4 dying quickly, that
would be a disaster. 

882
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,320
And it's also like 400 points or
something, so. 

883
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,240
Your greater demon? 
There's even more. 

884
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:19,200
Yeah, yeah. 
So what was, you know, if that 

885
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,720
happened, what what usually took
place was a spell. 

886
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,480
So did your opponent sort of 
gear towards killing your source

887
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:30,840
or was it just bad luck? 
What was your sort of fear of 

888
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:37,600
facing in that scenario? 
For me it was what we called 

889
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:44,720
suicide characters and sheep 
characters, with the stuff like 

890
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:51,640
the heart of Bow, of course, and
then there was a dark maze of 

891
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:58,640
death and yeah, stuff like that.
So Van Hossman Speculum they 

892
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,800
often mounted on a Pegasus or. 
Something like that. 

893
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,320
You can see the yeah, what's 
coming there. 

894
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:13,960
Yeah, makes sense. 
You, Dave, was it the same or? 

895
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,800
I don't really remember 
situations of of that Ilkoff. 

896
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:22,960
You know, I haven't played 
Castle that much, but I get a 

897
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,320
bit not huge amounts. 
Generally speaking, lots of 

898
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:30,960
level 4 wizard is is disastrous 
as as Jurgen said, you know, 

899
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,920
it's it's a point sink. 
So, you know, you're looking at 

900
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,560
300, if not 405 hundred points, 
you know, and then then stick a 

901
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:45,240
monster on top of that as well. 
And yeah, maybe monster on top 

902
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,040
probably isn't the right that's 
you're going wrong there 

903
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,280
anyways. 
Monster should be underneath. 

904
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:54,640
But you get my principle. 
Yeah, it it, it will be a 

905
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:56,840
disaster. 
And yes, often it is. 

906
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,560
He's a suicidal sort of kind of 
character that will do. 

907
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:05,080
It can also be obviously, you 
know, chaos sorcerers are an 

908
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,880
exception to the rule generally 
in the you probably don't mind 

909
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:10,320
getting cow saucer into close 
combat. 

910
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,760
Most others, most other Wizards,
you kind of want to avoid that. 

911
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,480
But cow sauce was pretty decent 
in close combat. 

912
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,880
And obviously the beatsmen, 
shame in all, to a lesser extent

913
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,000
and greater demons are to a 
greater extent. 

914
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,000
You know, if you're not getting 
a great demon into close combat,

915
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:26,800
you're probably doing something 
wrong anyway. 

916
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,800
But you still have to sort of 
pick your combat a little bit. 

917
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,160
Oh yeah, absolutely. 
You know, you probably don't 

918
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,560
want to run towards the Lord 
who's most likely got a demon 

919
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:41,440
Slayer sword. 
Yeah, he said it's disastrous 

920
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:45,880
for any army losing level 4. 
And you know, the same rules and

921
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:50,000
principles for avoiding it, you 
know, are the same for chaos 

922
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,160
with sorcerer, slightly 
different in that you probably 

923
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:57,600
are wandering away from the 
safety of units with like our 

924
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,520
sources, because as you said, 
you know, they're they're either

925
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,240
on a steed of slanish or disc of
zinch quite often if they're, 

926
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:05,320
you know, of those power 
persuasions. 

927
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,200
So you've got to be a little bit
careful with that. 

928
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,680
You can mitigate it a little 
bit, I guess, with a steed of 

929
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:16,080
slanish if you've got if he's 
running alongside some cavalry 

930
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:21,440
disc of zinch flying thing. 
I don't think that would count 

931
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,760
as you know, being near a unit 
of infantry. 

932
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,240
I think it would probably still,
you know, not count as 

933
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,400
protected. 
So you know they're within X 

934
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:34,440
distance probably wouldn't work.
So in that sense you can't 

935
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:40,080
protect them quite as well. 
But you know, there are with, 

936
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:44,440
with chaos armour and with 
certain spells that protects A 

937
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,520
sorcerer, you know, as as Yogen 
was saying about, you know, the 

938
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:51,240
slanish ones and the Zege ones. 
But there's even a no one as 

939
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,160
well, isn't there? 
So there are things to protect 

940
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,400
your sorcerer. 
So really, if you're a level 4, 

941
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,200
you wouldn't be trying to get 
one of those. 

942
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,600
Yeah, there may be a few medic 
items as well to support. 

943
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,440
Exactly. 
Well every evil army probably 

944
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,240
goes for black amulet, and every
good army probably goes for 

945
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,360
golden and Batrazole. 
No reason those can't switch 

946
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,400
over and you can't use, you 
know, golden and ratazole evil 

947
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,800
army and black good army, 
absolutely no reason. 

948
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,000
But generally speaking, that's 
the way they tend to fall 

949
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,000
because they sound like good and
bad items. 

950
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:28,400
They're interesting in in there 
is an argument that wizard can't

951
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,960
use golden helm of Atrazar 
because it's a helmet and they 

952
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:35,200
can't wear armour. 
And then in fifth, they changed 

953
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,000
the golden crown of Atrazar, 
didn't they? 

954
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,960
So I think that was kind of 
going, let's let's allow Wizards

955
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,200
to use this item. 
So, yeah. 

956
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,160
But Black Amy, generally 
speaking, is a good item to 

957
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:49,120
protect your wizard with if he's
a if he's a well, it's not 

958
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,040
relevant because we talk about 
chaos, about savings, a savage 

959
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:52,920
short, then you've got or 
whatever you've got magic 

960
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:54,480
wallpaper. 
Generally speaking, yeah, Black 

961
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:56,680
Emily, it's probably the way to 
go for your Level 4 source or if

962
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:01,560
you want to protect them. 
Yeah, yeah, there's a few chaos 

963
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,320
only items as well, like in the 
reward section. 

964
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,680
Yeah, yeah. 
Like there's Zinch, there's like

965
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:09,240
Fortune or Zinch, isn't that, 
isn't it? 

966
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:15,120
I think yeah, yeah, those kind 
of things, Yeah. 

967
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,240
And obviously regeneration is 
going to help anyone. 

968
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:19,120
Yeah, so. 
That's always a. 

969
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:20,920
Good one as well. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

970
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,680
All right, So that was the end 
of the spells. 

971
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,960
Of course, there's probably more
to talk about if you want to do 

972
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:36,600
that, but I guess we will next 
because of course we are not 

973
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,560
done. 
There's much more to talk about 

974
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,520
for tradition in general. 
So he has a few minutes maybe. 

975
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,480
And your take as well is 
welcome. 

976
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,160
Joe, again, we we're going to 
look into magic items next. 

977
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,640
And I think we concluded a bit 
of it early on that going 

978
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,800
through every single magic 
weapon, for example, that's 

979
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,800
going to be tedious and you 
know, no one is going to enjoy 

980
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,520
that. 
A few of the other categories 

981
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,720
that is probably more doable. 
Like, you know, bounce bells, 

982
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:06,840
they're not called that, are 
they? 

983
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:11,320
But yeah, you know, the idea 
where there's like a dozen or 

984
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:17,520
something that we can do, but 
our idea is that we sort of do a

985
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:24,040
couple of categories that each 
member in the chat will choose, 

986
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:28,680
like my favorite item, my least 
favorite, maybe one that I never

987
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:33,360
seen used, but maybe need it's 
spots in the highlights for a 

988
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:38,200
minute and something like that. 
What do you think about that 

989
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:39,680
jargon? 
Would that be interesting to 

990
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:43,920
listen to or participate in? 
And I would say yes to both. 

991
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,240
I would love to do one of those 
and I would absolutely listen to

992
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,320
that. 
Excellent. 

993
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:56,960
So yeah, I guess that would be 
our next thing then. 

994
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:02,680
And yeah, that would keep us 
occupied for another six months 

995
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:07,000
maybe if we do one per month. 
Yeah, yeah. 

996
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,080
And anyone listening who, you 
know, feel that. 

997
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,800
Oh, I always wanted to talk 
about medic items. 

998
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,600
Feel free to hook us up and 
you're welcome to join. 

999
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,960
Absolutely. 
Maybe we'll do an advertisement.

1000
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:27,280
We're in the full edition group 
just in case on Facebook, just 

1001
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,800
in case anyone wants to wants to
come and join us for it. 

1002
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:34,040
You know, we, we, you know, we 
make use of people that we know 

1003
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:41,040
through the, the group really 
and other streams, but that's 

1004
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:45,800
not to anyone that's kind of 
newer to the group or, you know,

1005
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,000
just hasn't conversed very much.
Not to say that your opinions 

1006
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:49,680
aren't worthy and that we don't 
want to hear them. 

1007
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:53,720
So yeah, let's let's do that 
and, and see if people would 

1008
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:56,880
like to, to join in. 
And even if they don't want, 

1009
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,520
maybe if they don't even want to
join in on the chat, they could 

1010
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:04,680
submit their ideas and we can 
discuss them anyway without them

1011
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:06,040
joining. 
If they're a little bit, you 

1012
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,320
know, state, I know there are 
people we've asked in the past 

1013
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:12,640
and it's not been for them 
appearing on a, on a podcast. 

1014
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:17,160
That's that's fine. 
But please do feel free to, to, 

1015
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,440
you know, share your, your 
opinions on magic items. 

1016
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:25,440
And we'll, we'll endeavour to 
maybe do an episode of listeners

1017
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:32,800
questions, Listeners magic items
sort of principle. 

1018
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:34,360
Yeah. 
Maybe. 

1019
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,480
That that'd be cool. 
Maybe. 

1020
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,000
In fact, generally we do an 
episode of that, you know, is 

1021
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:43,680
there anything that, you know, 
especially Matase doesn't talk 

1022
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:45,800
as much as I do on me. 
I know I don't let people, but 

1023
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:48,800
if people have got questions 
from Matteis, maybe send them 

1024
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:50,680
in. 
And I will, I will say send them

1025
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:55,120
in post on the Facebook group 
and I'll post and I'll put them 

1026
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,360
to because he always asks us 
about our physics. 

1027
01:07:57,640 --> 01:07:59,680
And I think the Empire one we 
definitely did, but a lot of 

1028
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,680
times we didn't replay them. 
So he ducked out of it, but we 

1029
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:04,080
wanted some of his things as 
well. 

1030
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:06,080
So maybe that's another idea for
some. 

1031
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:09,280
We can have some light hearted. 
They never, they're never. 

1032
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:13,760
Not tongue in cheek, I know, but
more more not necessarily a 

1033
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:17,800
focus as such, but just general 
chat about fourth edition or 

1034
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,080
opinions of it and stuff like 
that. 

1035
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:22,960
Great sort of panel debate or 
whatever. 

1036
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,920
Yeah, there's a lot of things to
be said and done, so we'll 

1037
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:31,720
definitely get into that. 
And of course, there are several

1038
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,640
sources of magic items. 
You have the original box, you 

1039
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:38,800
have arcane magic, battle magic,
and you have Chronicles of Magic

1040
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,880
and the the army books, specific
ones. 

1041
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,439
So yeah, we can look into all of
those, of course. 

1042
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:49,160
Yeah. 
So great. 

1043
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:53,760
We will get back to the first 
episode in that instalment. 

1044
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:55,840
Well, fairly soon. 
I hope so. 

1045
01:08:56,600 --> 01:09:00,920
Yeah, check in. 
And of course, as always, thanks

1046
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:05,960
to Josh doing the editing work. 
Heinstein's work. 

1047
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:12,040
Yeah, yeah, that's great. 
And also publishing it on on his

1048
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:14,520
channels. 
It's of course great help to 

1049
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:19,720
reach out to broad audience. 
So thanks a lot Jurgen, and 

1050
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,359
looking forward to get you back 
on talking about magic items. 

1051
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:26,840
Sure. 
Thing. 

1052
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:31,160
Yeah, good stuff. 
Have a great Sunday everyone and

1053
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:33,560
catch you later. 
Cheers all. 

1054
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:34,160
See you. 
Bye. 

1055
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:35,720
Bye. 
Bye.