The onrushing hold of a Terran, it's warm her.
Terrible sight to behold scuttling term against rub,
shoulders with deadly genes, demons huge, carnufex is Lumber
forward beside tall. Tara need Warriors in an
avalanche of rattling armor. Plates glittering fangs, and
gigantic. Claws, discipline is hard to
maintain against such a Horrifying fo has many men are
driven mad with despair or Frozen with Terror their
approach. It is well known that the
destroying the more intelligent creatures in the Swarm is
essential to stop at Tara need Advanced Training in recognition
and fire discipline is of some help in identifying, the best
targets but the chaos and confusion of the battlefield,
make it difficult for troops to pick out their targets, amidst,
the swarming mass of creatures. Ultimately, it is proven best to
direct fire at the largest tyranids inside.
And pray to the emperor that some of them, the leaders
Inquisitor acma holding the Abomination.
Codex tyranids nice and colorful much love for tyranids.
Are you asking me or telling me? Yeah.
Well, both, I guess I have love for attorneys, how about
yourself, really, clearly and more power to you at me, to
actually, to a large extent. And we can see it right there.
I get main credit on turn is because this wasn't the first
time. Turn its appeared in one of the
40,000 they were rounds right since Rogue Trader.
But out of all of the races, I think in 40K, they've probably
gone through one of the biggest Lucian's ironically enough over
the course of their appearances. So it's an interesting snapshots
look back at 2nd edition. I guess they kind of like you've
been entertaining us for decades and doing different roles as a
total creator for games and advisor and things like that.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I still work in tabletop
games now, but it must be said, I'm more often taker a
Consulting role these days You have you got any involvement in
their paranoia? So the resurgent heard Whispers?
No, no, I didn't even know that there was a paranoia research
again. What is that?
The, the umpteenth time? Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Because I know, because I know
of at least two paranoia previous paranoia's.
So is this the third one was coming up, possibly?
Okay, now I know paranoia. That's fine, ate it?
I've never written for it. You have to get your whip out
issue. If you're playing as against
Master believe, I don't know to assilex that the steps up to the
great games, master to be evil to the place is just so
intrinsic. It's almost no challenge that.
It's true. It's easy to be evil now I guess
there was a lot of influences with hearing aids.
As you mentioned the been around for a long time.
Time Doom of the Elder Starfleet further?
Yeah, the back Advance. My first, my first encounter
with them. Aside from in Rogue Trader it
was actually Advanced space Crusade.
Yep. Which came out, you know, on the
heels of well to try and take advantage of space Crusade.
Yeah. But in a curious twist of fate,
for whatever reason it was decided I didn't Like right when
I landed it back in 1990 and the Games Workshop Studio, I think
it was actually 91 Gervais was working on it and I helped him
out with it and I never quite understood the reasoning behind
why they determine its. I mean, it was very
characterful. We did a lot about her and it's
which I kind of built on when it came to the in the second
edition codex. And we did a white dwarf Army
lists in between times as well, just get them into 40K in a
meaningful fashion. We got A few Miniatures don't
like the carnufex. For example, was the biggest
thing that got done at that time, some nice term against as
we started calling. So how, how would you have been
approached to sort of modernize tyranids from Advanced based
your say, to you and attack Etc into a codex for Warhammer
40,000? It was at first, it was very
kind of organic again, process in the there was some Plastics
done. A ton of our had been done for
advanced space Crusade itself, Adrian Smith yet, lot of Adrian
Smith are, in fact me, was that the primary illustrated by think
Wayne did some stuff for it to. And Dave Gallagher, it was all
hands on because it was a big box game with, you know, floor
pans, puppy organic leading, the war plans, sphincter doors, and
the whole nine yards. So a lot of effort got into it
on that front, just creatively Because white dwarf is a monthly
magazine. Always had a continual, you
know, more to be fed for new material and honestly with black
plastic 200 Warriors lying around and Plastics, you have to
bear in mind were not commonplace back then, they were
done specifically for a big box game and the rest of the Rangers
would generally be done in metal.
So it was a real Rarity at plastic stool, so to have some
40K Plastics, lying around, not doing anything.
Was just like criminal, basically only had genestealers
as well. Of course, from space, also had
Plastics genestealers, plastic 200 Warriors, and honestly,
certainly back in second edition of those, that was enough
Miniatures to make an army. You know, you got two different
kinds of Miniatures off, you go. We're Off to the Races, so it
wasn't a big stretch to actually round that out a little bit
further which is kind of what we did initially and that white
dwarf list and so when we came to the second edition it was
just like continuing that process of light.
Blaring in some more creatures and I'd done Hive War as well
for Space Marine second edition and that gave a big opportunity
to explore. They were always really useful
to do on that level. The expansions for space frame
because it gives you a macro look up the Warfare.
How a fuck, how erase would fight?
You know, they're big machines as well as all the little stuff
so it stop you coming at it with too much.
Vessel like Skirmish idea which was very easy to do when you
came at it from the other end from like the Rogue Trader end.
It's all about, you know, small Elite teams and stuff like that.
Yeah, but it force you to think about war, you know, the proper
grimdark planetary Invasion, kind of level of War which was
always one of the big appeals about 40K was the scale of it to
me at least. So when it came to the Codex it
seemed very right to select a the opportunity to lean into it
more. There was a bit of a problem.
The advanced space crew said kind of view of tyranids and
that there were this just completely Unstoppable, tsunami
where they showed up, and if they showed up a planetary
system, then that was that end of story.
You know. There was nothing you could do.
There was far too many of them to fight in any meaningful
fashion show with a warp all that stuff.
So almost have to like tone them down a bit from there to
something that you could fight with a squad of Space Marines
and still keep that. Idea that only represented, you
know, the Leading Edge of this again.
Yeah, threat that would literally consume the planet.
You were standing on given a chance.
So it was, it was an interesting exercise to get into really
getting into that second edition because it was kind of melding
that Skirmish level at one end, but with that Hive or idea of
like the big war, the huge planetary Invasion, the massive
bio Titans. And although the whole nine
yards at the other end, when trying to get across the idea
that It is an escalation and this basically games to be
fought at every level of it. You can sort of say across all
of the games, a bit of crust, compatibility with units with
turn attack Advanced basically said, etcetera and sort of maybe
a bit complex and Bloated rule system to get an army versus
army game happening which is obviously led to foot Warhammer.
Thousand coming out. I guess.
My question then is there was a few things that got slashed a
few really weird units to things like dominators from Rogue
Trader or the to need skwiggs, which I absolutely love and
struggle to get a hold of, you know, turn into that was sheer
opportunism because the skwiggs have been done for what the Orcs
that would just like funny little models that came out.
Spat out basically, in between, with the bits of leftover Putty
from making Orcs, but there were cute, and there was kind of a
tradition for it, because kale, Sorcerers years before had a
nice little range of millions that just lengthen it mate and
they're really popular. Those little models, people love
them. So they made the skwiggs to
because they'll lots of funny and stick on the model, stick on
the basis, things like that, but it meant that there was actually
a range of Iblees. And a lot of them were actually
kind of semi based off some of the advanced space, Crusade
things that other little art from.
Yeah, yeah, Adrian Smith B. So it didn't take much to sort
like, okay, we could actually turn that into a base of
monsters and like I say, we were actively Scavenging when we did
the white dwarf list who actively Scavenging for like
anything that we could include into it, to give it a bit more
diversity. Over 200 Warriors and
genestealers, which were Two things that we actually had one
tournament. So the other guy, I guess, one
of my other questions is to like you went from to need Warriors
Hunter Slayers screaming killers, and switch to Latin
naming conventions. Things like well that's right.
Arn. Officially I was back, then
won't lie. Yeah.
Effects are still with screaming killer that that yes the kind of
fix meant to butcher thing and I think tell your other meanings
which I won't explore but Herod enough Of course.
Yeah. Well who came up with that?
What was the deal with that? Me and Jess mean just got some
came up with all of that. It kind of started with me doing
a lot back in high for because I needed a bunch of names for like
bio tanks. Bio Titans and things like that.
I respect. Yeah, how respects Huayra.
Duels paraffin malefactors higher offense, all that stuff
or all out of the dictionary. Basically.
Yeah, because even back when we were doing Advanced space crew
site, we started running up against problems with the this
see that e names that the classic film became a towards
the pincher poker and all this sort of thing rather than and
they yeah and they just start to get a bit samey and meaningless
the more of them you did and it was clearly going to become more
and more of a problem, the more of them we did.
So that was why we made a conscious or decision to move
away from that and give them effectively like Imperial
designations that were a bit Latin e sounding which yeah
after the books and go find loads of obscure words that
aren't actually lesson. We still use them but they're
obscure hired deal and stuff like that.
It's not like a mega spile adjusts classification.
Yeah, that kind of thing. I mean that that was very nice,
some back then. But there was this idea that,
you know, there's this gigantic Gothic Imperium and it's
scientists Gothic and it's computers Gothic.
The spaceships with Gothic so their names for things Gothic as
well to help lean into all of that.
And it created more of a cohesive framework to use for
expanding on the model range, and giving them distinct names
rather than the the see that e sort of a names that we've been
having to resort to earlier. So, yeah, 100% conscious
decision to move from one to the other, and I know people Miss
name. He's like screaming current
stuff like that which is when we kept them in his nicknames.
Yeah. Of like well that's what the
Imperial God and then I'm going to call it a carnufex.
Are they call it screaming Killers?
Or something like that? And two slides.
So it was still so like it was like it was a classic piece of
40K expansion of like, well we're going to expand on it.
We're going to go technology what went before and trying to
embody that with in there, somehow, but also take more onto
the outside of it as we go and hopefully not create a problem
for ourselves later, which was A lot of 40K was trying not to
create a problem for yourself later and more like create
opportunities for yourself later.
I guess another thing I notice like while flicking through the
book itself is a lot of the older sort of art you would have
seen in codex imperialis or model shots, that hadn't things
like zou at swear. Now removed and replaced with
shots with the newer model range.
Of course, it was very confusing as a teenager to get Warhammer
second. Second edition, boxset flick
through the book. And then C units like so arts
and think or what the hell is that?
But now one thing I'm going to say, first of all, is the way I
pronounce that troop type also correct.
Also at. Yep, I'm here.
I know there was another one. I thought we'd go through that
12 of like, 200 from the planet Tyrant.
I know, it makes no sense, but that's just the way it is.
And so, yes, Oates was weird when I don't know why we drop
them. Now, because they were always
kind of weird, be popular. I think it was just felt like, I
didn't really fit. Yeah.
Because the, the previous depiction had been as, like,
semi ambassadorial creatures basically, from the turrets,
which you could kind of weave in, but it didn't fit with a
tabletop Army and I don't know why the models weren't up for
it. I think they may have just been
not viable anymore because the mold would enact or some.
Sure. But yeah, we didn't include them
and can I drop them out because they didn't fit?
The theme because turning in sin ever since Advanced space
Crusade really turned his hadn't been anybody with diplomats, you
know? Yeah, I would just, I Galactic
hunger and you couldn't talk to it.
You couldn't negotiate with it. It would just eat you.
So the idea that we would have ambassadors was sort of ran
counter to that. I mean subsequently it's been
work that yeah they did at one point only best is actually kind
of like went rogue. Don't try to separate themselves
from the My interns own. So there's been various stories
around that again, each one a body build on top of rosin
eliminate if you can. But yeah, I can chose to ignore
them for a while. Really, there's one in the
modern Black Stone Fortress, as a special character.
Yeah, this is a, this is a lot, a lot of stuff from Rogue
Traders popping back up again these days because yeah, the
universe is really well established and it all fits in
somewhere if bit of creative thinking perhaps, it's not
really a problem. So we went from sort of
encounters with like ultramarines and things like
that. In Rogue Trader to fully
fleshed-out High fleets and the history of the turn ID and the
Imperial sort of goings-on and then hi Fleet Kraken, which is
awesome to read about as a young lad collecting and Just one, I
guess, one other thing I noticed was in the Codex.
You've there's a few Army shots and you know, like, tyranids
ambushing Imperials Etc, but you never see things like the
hormone gone models or the Rippers for models.
You see a lot of the new models but do you think that was just
because at that time that's what had been cast and painted and
they hadn't gotten around to who I know it was.
There you go. I love this stuff.
Yeah. Model-making painting, assembly
and photography didn't always run on a completely parallel
track to getting written and sent off to the printers,
particularly this early because no digital print back then.
So it was all bringing things down.
Galleys and laying it out and taking photos with bromide
cameras. So we will talk called very long
time. So what you had available to do
Fiat photography, it wasn't a guarantee that it was going to
be the full Miniatures range. The point you were doing the
book especially the color step color B because they had to be
done earliest so that the whole process could come together
because only part of the book was printed in color as well as
save money. So you had to have that all
sorted out and ready to send off at the same time as the black
and white sections to get it printed so and it was more
complicated. So it was one of the earlier
things you did. So the you didn't always have
the whole range of models in many more fun for playtesting.
And doing that reports of course.
But yes we have three Hopper, gold medals.
Okay, thanks and stuff like that.
Because it was one of the reasons I started even before
this, actually for this to collect a play test Army of at
least, decent proxies all the models or, you know, where we
had like one model just like, okay, give me 20 of those so we
can have some units of them, things like that.
So that we can test with things that were about the right size
and so on in our games cuz you couldn't wait on, obviously, you
couldn't wait. 8 on the Miniatures to be produced and go
down to every mat or get paint and photographed and then be
able to play with them. You know you want to do that
while you are writing it preferably So a good segue on, I
guess playtesting. You, there was a lot of new
things that came in with the attorney codex.
So different targeting rule so that people could try and shoot
it. The big things, which is also
sort of carried on to the chaos codex with different unit types
and huge things like blood thirst has to need tyranids
didn't have strategy cards, they had what we used to call the
tyranny. Pedro lie chart.
So it was horrific things. That happened on the way into
the battle. How was play testing these new
rules. Right.
And I know that this ition music gonna make it just like fishing.
Here we were far less focused on balance the it being fun.
Basically in second edition language that was our main focus
would be fun. Now unbalanced too much
unbalanced isn't Fun by definition so you have to watch
it on that front but the possibility for World of wacky
things was very much a part of second edition and because
tyranids And of whacked from some of that facilities, some
ways they didn't have tanks that could go out of control and
crashing things that explode and stuff like that.
You kind of had to insert some of the randomness, the random
event that's in different ways and doing cards was always
difficult because it's just a codex.
I mean. Yeah, you can put them in the
color section and get people cut them out and all that sort of
stuff just ideal. So one of the things that was
kind of cool that always liked in Rogue Trader had been The
hallucinogen, like Madam effect table and things like that.
So it was really the Turning random events table was inspired
by that, and it was also a way against or light coming from
that Hive War perspective of Total War, planetary war and
things like that of bringing in elements that you couldn't do.
Otherwise, the table top, which is the same thing.
The strategy cards did as well so was performing an equivalent
function of saying, you know, here's the equivalent of like
some orbital bombardment Landing.
Random or something like that. So I apologize if they ever
ruined any of your games but I'm guarantee you they made a lot
more of a memorable than if it hadn't been there in the first
place. Ah, man, it was the fun at like
hilarious part of the game, especially the dismay on my
opponents faces, when something horrific like Dreadnaught
running out of fuel happened and the poor thing was now stuck
behind a brick wall, you know, I loved it that's great.
Well that was kind of the issue with those use easy to love us.
Are going to play acts it. Awful fix your opponent by
seizing if you're in opposition to it.
So I'm extremely apologize for that.
I was a very young designer when I did all this so I don't
apologize for anything. I may have perhaps over focused
too much on the 200 player. Having fun at times, the Menace
of the tyranids cannot be underestimated.
They are unique in so many respects, their capacity to
mutate. Eight and evolve the
biotechnology of their weapons and spacecraft Mega start
Consciousness, and their single-minded purpose of being,
because we have never been able to reason, but them are only
interaction has been war in. Think on, we could learn, they
are not all beasts. These creatures many are
evidently cunning intelligent. If we could only We communicate
with them how both the races would benefit with communication
would come, Mutual understanding and respect.
The frontiers of human science would be pushed back, human and
alien could live together in peace and Harmony records.
Deleted from this pot. I order of the commission for
human purity. Exit, the personal log of
janitor Malin. When the pervasive nature of his
dangerous theories was uncovered, the janitor was
immediately removed from office, stripped of all his Rank and
Privileges and sentenced to spend the rest of his natural
life in the prison. Last referral pen attempt a
anyway, we're back about we're all here.
Now we're looking at Hive tyrants.
Hello. Hi of Turin.
So if people who are listening are basically reading along and
the Codex, we're on page, 18 s High fire ant.
The big HQ of the tyranids finally has a model.
Finally has some beautiful art from art Gibbons.
Three Bayou, more Ugly selling it like this is cool.
Yes, we believe you Market School 3 biomorphs.
Yeah, so a lot of flexibility Bella built into the idea
because this was really you know you your character for leading
the course. We couldn't have characters per
se. You can have a Space Marine
captain or something like that. This guy had to be the
equivalent so there's a lot of flexibility built in in terms of
the different biomorphs he could have and choppy Weaponry as well
of course because he was gay clinical and expected to take a
hell of a lot of Frankly, it was going to be such an obvious
Target for like every last Canada, could get a line on him
that he had to be really tough. Hey, I could have this x, can't
be one shot and so on. Yeah, I mean it has a tendency
to be a glass Cannon unless people are outfitting it or
giving it a bodyguard or you find ever take it without a
voltage field at least in my opinion.
This is going back something. But yeah, you just don't Set
foot on the battlefield without some sort of invulnerable save
on it. Because I was just looking at
it. It's like 4:30 Plus for my
carapace. Like that's not going to do you
any good is it? Still a very formidable creature
and yeah, beautiful art. And I guess the next thing in
the Codex is the carnufex classic miniature, that's been
around for a long time. Fantastic art, very divided
Community. Sometimes on whether or not,
it's the ugliest model or the most wonderful me that incur
Andres was what hooked me into 2nd Edition for everyday, living
Peril that. Well yeah, and now I can see the
can see that it is very distinctive is extremely
distinctive. You know this because you can
even scale it down to Epic scale, you can still tell what
it is very easily. It's got that going for it.
I was never a huge fan of it but I didn't really hate it either.
It was the main. I think my main problem with it
in the Terminus is that it was limited and that okay we've got
something that's clearly very tough and it has Forsyth arms.
What's it going to do? Run into some things and attack
them with its side arms, which is a bit inflexible.
So the main thing he was to make it very, very, very, very good
at what it did. And as you can see, it's going
to Absolute chunker of a stat line for it.
And of course, once again, you trick it out with biomorphs, you
make it regenerate and things like that because again, much
like the hive Tyrone in many jobs.
This is your bodyguard for the hive torrent because you make it
so threatening that they're too busy shooting the FX what kind
of x's rather than the hive time, but yes, it was kind of
interesting because it was a think the first metal miniature
that got done after the old plastic turn it Warriors.
So it represented the big step in evolution aary terms, on the
visuals, and things like that. Yep.
Perfect love it. But yeah, as you said it, it's
very role-specific creature. Yeah.
I mean we try to think of it like the by a plasma vomits.
Oh, it got something to shoot at you, but that wasn't really what
it was there for. That was the only sort of heavy
done until the hive Tyrant came out with his Venom Cannon,
pretty much. Yeah, and that was the one use
for it as well as this. Like, it was something that
could actually reach a vehicle that range.
Because, yeah, 200 Warriors weren't so blessed until later.
But basically, when we started giving them Venom cannons, which
is this addition in fact that belief.
Yeah. So next up, Sharon had Warriors
been around for ages. So I've managed to collect the
ancient first, metal ones as well as the Plastics then they
came out with a lot of options namely, the Devourer which has
carried through to the current editions which is frightful gun
you guys. Really came up with some
disgusting her. If you can bioweapons, that was
all me. I'm gonna put my hand up to that
old. Well, the original flash borer
is it? Yeah.
Thanks back to Advanced, space Crusade and kind of set the tone
as far as I was concerned. So when I came to because
clearly, I needed to diversify the Weaponry a lot and so I try
to keep it all cinematically in line in terms of is all hideous
things that, you know, hatch out of seeds or Worms that burrow
into your nervous system and things like that.
Kind of cool lump of Flesh with black-headed worms that if they
didn't explode, in acid on impact they borrowed in and then
made their way through you know the system to your brain and so
it basically resulted in I think a few tests or something like
that if you lost units to it was pretty formidable.
Yeah it's pretty cool. Tara need Warriors.
I mean, they're great. I find And again, if you sink
points into them, give them things like voltage fields and
stuff. They can have a bit of staying
power, but yeah, people will come.
Yeah, there I really like to reward as myself but they always
struggled a little bit because they're in a kind of funny
midpoint where they're in small issue units and that they're
quite tough individually, but they're not.
So Mega toughest Hive tyrants to be able to stand up to flax.
Oh, I've always said you could only really use them if there
were enough other big threats around like convex as in Hive
tyrants. And at that point, the children
were extinct draw quite so much fire.
But at that point, you start to run a bit low on numbers so and
you do hate the numbers. Next up the lichter.
So the little is quite insane when it came out it had a full
page of special rules. Almost yes, obviously, based on
things like Predator, Camille. Yannick Hunters, a fantastic
creature. And when you look through the
old pages of things like turn into Tak, you'd see these
gigantic sort of sight creatures in art but they weren't really
defined as a specific. Thing yet.
So it was this an evolution of that sort of thing.
This is this is all of the terms I should say as well.
All of the terms of me and Jess Goodwin working very closely
together on these. I used to go and hang out with
him for like, at least an hour a day on average and we talked
about all kinds of stuff and Terminus was a lot and he did a
number of like concept sketches which are what step forward into
like, the hive tyrant. Evolved her and it Warriors a
little bit more but one of them was elector what he called the
lichter which we adopted a fantastic name and helped
fitting with the carnufex lichter principle, and that was
conceived of as being like a specialist turned Warrior
basically. And the idea was to get
something that was like absolutely 100% sort of thing
that you get in a horror movie like running around a base
somewhere. We're picking people off and
murdering individuals. Hence its Suite of capabilities
which has the right to point out.
There's extend to a full page and you know, it's got flesh
hooks for grabbing people with or clambering about with and you
can eat people's brains and get their memories and of course it
can turn itself invisible and overall this has been a
tremendous step forward. I think for terminate, kind to
have that kind of thing because much like, I mean, we talked
about the random events table. And how that sets the tone and
the flavor for tyranids. And this is one of those units
that genuinely does as well. In the it is an individual unit
but it's not a character per se, but it's going to really
specialized function. And yeah, I always liked them, I
always used to use one or possibly two of them personally
because they don't ask mess with people.
All those people that like taking heavy weapons at standing
at the back in particular, they get it.
A visit from mr. Licked early on.
And after that, the trying to set OverWatch pointing in all
directions and all kinds of hilarious stuff.
So good fun to be had by all really.
Yeah, you could set up some really nasty strategy, see if
you manage to psychic screen, say, a couple Elders like is you
could pop this guy out to finish them off as they rolled around
on the ground screaming. Yeah, he was great as a literal
assassin as well, for going after characters.
So, just general backfield wonder, it was the looked as far
as Because well worth the price of Entry was and relatively
simple to use as well. You know, you got a lot out of
him without having to be very clever.
Franklin. Okay, we'll go next Zone.
Throats. That was another thing.
Another sort of like really weird, specialized turned
Warrior idea. Now Jesse's idea was for the
floaty brain that we got later. But the in this Edition it was
more far more of like a attorney warrior with a giant head.
Basically as you can see, from the Nation.
And yeah, so again, this was a way of giving heavy weapons in
effect to the tourism which weren't heavy weapons because
even though with I added in the Venom Cannon and so on, they
weren't spectacular as heavy weapons or anything like that.
They would they would just sort of like it's okay, it's an
autocannon with some bonuses or it allows kind of bonuses Zone
throats with the things that were are now I melt you with My
brain bolt, especially Vehicles. So they're kind of vehicle
Hunters more than anything else. If I remember rightly, I think
massive pain in the ass for the opposing just like kind of
everything that's here is actually the massive pain in the
ass but these guys particularly because they're one of these
things, you can't let them live. That was always my opinion about
it. I was surprised if people didn't
kill zone throats of the first opportunity because the amount
of damage, they could output was outrageous.
You could also not only did they help add to the pool of psychic
cards that you're drawing from but you could use them as as a
almost like a threat so that your opponent would hopefully
use demonic attack on them and not a hard time even though the
hive tyrants like a little for seike, it's still a chance that
you can just leave. It was always it was always a
bit of a dangerous game to play in second edition.
With a psycho just have one powerful sychar because there
were bad things could happen to you.
So yeah, they were also there to help spread the pain a little
bit on that front. Yeah, pretty cool.
So term against the old Hunter Slayer evolved got some new
weapons somewhere. Really, really cool.
Especially I like the spike rifle.
I never got to use the web Strangler enough, but I can
change that now since collecting.
Some you could just take some guys with Webster Anglers, can
you? Because I thought that was the
dirty thing is, you just pick a few.
So they survived magically. They got close enough to use
them on the other will now stay. Yeah.
They because you have a lot of big top end stuff.
You know, you need some little grip, Lee stuff as well to keep
the opposition honest. Basically, in the day, if they
invest too much into just heavy weapons to take out the big
guys, then the little guys crawl up their asses basically.
So that's what these guys were about.
But there were mainly about being cheap.
Yeah, you can take 16 basic term against for, I think 96 points,
you'd have to wipe out the whole lot to get a victory point with
signups around it meant that, that could actually be tricky
for your opponent to do. Yeah, they just weren't going
away and you know, the boat your ankles and stuff like that in
practice, though, I found that they generally.
It seemed like in most people's arms, they eventually got
replaced by Homer guns instead because they were fast and
exchanging fire. When you've got crappy little
guns is never a winning strategy when you can be Up there and
sticking spikes into them. So Ripper swarms kind of similar
kind of said what again just just a meat Shield, really?
But in the form of meat Shield, if they get up to you, then the
kind of a problem, but mainly there to be cheap.
Yeah, I mean, I guess again, from Community questions and,
and just talking back and forth, the complaints were that they
were too slow. They ate your precious terrain,
right? Yeah, we need that guys.
Yes, they looked really cool. Yeah, again, they were kind of
in there more as a character piece than to Be an Effective
unit Choice per se. I mean more powerful people to
go like I'm just going to take nothing but a rapper swabs,
which is an interesting experiment.
But yeah, they were kind of freely.
And eventually when we did Plastics as well though, they
were framed up, so that you got some rippers on every frame,
just in the corner of the frame. So you could basically build up
swarms of rippers for free, didn't even have spent real
worth real money on them. So yeah, probably miss you slow
in retrospect that it wouldn't have hurt to make them a little
bit quicker and maybe they're consumed thing.
Could have been there an optional rather than yeah we
just eat everything in the way. But what do you what do you want
their the I guess. It also helps you use your
turning screens. If you had them they were
suddenly useless you could just get well yeah it was a nod to
that as well. I mean We change them to be
looking at a bit more, you know, Tremors basically in general or
like under evolved Turner's with little carapace has on them, but
it was a nod back towards having swarms, and I say, they have
their users, but really, in there, more for the character
than anything else for the movie sort of thing of like, oh no,
what's this? Great film Tremors?
It is and again, an inspiration. You know, I'd be lying if I
didn't say Tremors was an inspiration for Turn it.
Hey guys, that's awesome. Make goggles they this is again
this is a jazz sketching up alternate Hunter slides
alternate term against you know what would you do with it?
If you could change it into like a batty thing instead which gets
you to the gargle with. Also not back to that early
agent Smith art as well from Advanced space, Crusade of?
Yeah, there was some make flatten everything things flying
around in those pictures. Yeah, and the Very Geiger asked
of like, you know, combining hands and fingers together into
tubes, and faces and mores, and orifices that kind of stuff
finds a home in here at particularly, well, shown in the
artwork that so why? Yes, I'm a great super duper
handy to have. And again, these are part of one
of the reasons that term against and fell out of favor, I suspect
is because say you be the top gormogon's we took gargoyles or
both. Because they could both do the
Germans job but a bit better. Slightly more expensive granted
but just way more problematic. Yeah that were very top-heavy
model y so if you bump yeah they might snap but they were the
perfect counters to Jet bikes because jet black to
open-topped. And then suddenly you getting
hit twice automatically from this flame, it had the potential
to kill the guardian inside and then suddenly the jet bikes,
which were working you out how to counter.
So, backline mortar, artillery, things like that suddenly needed
to be guarded from these little buggers so they were great.
Yep. And Homer gaunt's again.
Big metal model tipped over a lot.
Yeah, they're very, very low. Oh God.
Here they want to fall over all the swim the most cutting forms.
Take the lowest pair of arms and just put them down a little bit
so they just didn't it. Kept it propped up.
He'll coins on the base or whatever it took, but they were,
they were fantastic. Once they hit into combat.
That was so annoying. I love them.
Yeah, there was something just perfect about their kind of stat
line that made them. Yeah, a real problem when they
got to come back again, you know the units of 16.
If I remember rightly, you could have.
So enormous that was so quick. So ridiculously quick that
again, you've basically got maybe One shot at shooting them
on the way in and if you don't take it, they're going to be on
you next turn. So, there was something that
could run across the table with a Chance of success and if you
poke your nose out there could be on your intern once, oh yes,
yes. Dear old home against one of
those things that just works sort of thing.
Very simple, as you can see, barely half page rules, one
Special Rule. But yeah and they just look at,
is that line. Yeah, I mean, whether it was
this another thing that you could stop a turn To a shooting
because these things are in your face while all the big stuff
lumbered up. So yeah, great, great unit.
Next up is above or so finally, there was some sort of
artillery, it was fantastic. Oh yeah, this is this is like
taking a trip through my past sins.
Yeah. By ovals by ovals again.
Yeah, an artillery equivalent so that you had an option for
hitting things. In the back field without having
to like run over there basically.
So do the the trick with these though is that they don't fire
shells or anything else. It drops poor Minds on the
opposing side which are just drift around.
They don't necessarily blow up until they hit something, which
means that these things are gigantic pain in the ass because
they get a launch off. They drop several mines.
If I remember rightly at once, don't they just one, but if you
killed them, All the mines drifted out which is really
funny. Yeah.
And if you kill the moment it goes off.
So yeah, it again. All about complicating things in
people's Back Field between these and lictors and gargoyles.
It wasn't a safe place to be because the small minds are
really nasty as I recall, particularly nasty as vehicles
and things like that. Yeah, you can take units of
small minds on their own as well, just to, basically create
no-go zones, I guess, Oh, that's what I'm getting from because I
would have bitterly do. That actually takes several
Spore Moines to start with start drifting them around the place
and then fired by a Vols on top of that.
So that it was a spawn point Rich environment basically which
often pay dividends because it's one of these things that makes
the opposing players so paranoid, because they're like
what Congo there because the sport might hook Congo there
because the small mind that they're so busy thinking about
that than they've got genestealers eating them before
they know it. Yeah.
They're Sika. Auntie bike be machined to
because if you manage to penetrate but not blot the
vehicle, then it would start to rot that would get in which is
really cool. So yeah, it could cause a lot of
problems, some and I guess Spore Minds became a big thing in the
Pteranodon Army especially like battlefleet Gothic where you had
units flanked by mines instead of the traditional Shields and
things like that. So, You just like take sort of
earlier my cervix form ideas and just run with that.
Yeah, it kind of It kind of came from the other, the end of the
attorneys are space going species.
So you know they landed. So the things that you see
running around on the ground with legs or wings or crawling.
They kind of the exceptions, the these things actually live in
space. So they're going to have endless
amounts of small, decreasing sizes of ships right down.
So, you know, drones and Spore minds and my set Expose and
stuff coming off the the the actual Hive ships themselves.
Yeah, we did a lot with I'm going to battlefleet Gothic, it
was kind of a round from space Fleet days.
There was small - yeah. There, which is where these came
from, for the ones for this list.
They were actually space fleets ball mounts.
Just reused at a completely different scale.
Eventually, make got some bigger ones, I think.
But Again though we had a lot of fun with them.
In terms of the exam, the my static spores about the the kind
of like that the horror story of being invaded by Turin incent
having these things drifting around through, you know, your
neighborhood. So Day of the Triffids works.
Why is because they're not in themselves dangerous until you
get close enough to them. But disturbing things to have
around the old. Genestealer are old friend.
Yeah, jin-sil has, I mean, what can be said that has an already
been said the been around forever in everything.
There are these were my litmus test for whether or not
something was bad ass because you know, you stack up the
Avatar or the bloodthirster or whatever and it was, how can it
can it stand up to how many genes dealers?
Yes. Yeah.
It wasn't about testing because
they're this that wine basically got carried forward.
It's just a keyless behind but you know.
They were firmly rooted in space Hulk, where one genestealer was
entirely likely to kill a Terminator if it get to in close
combat. So that was always from the acid
test of like, aging slower should be able to kill a
Terminator, 2 easily, in hand-to-hand combat exceptions
made for his super good Terminator.
He's got lightning claws, whatever.
So they kind of start from there, which does mean that
they've got an outrageous that line and they're very expensive,
which was always the big downside to the unity really
don't be. In my opinion, I didn't use them
very often myself because they just between being expansive.
Not that hard to kill. They got targeted like 10 so
they very rarely got to their destination in without a lot of
help basically. So, but there again, I say
readily available and a great way of juicing any to knit Army,
you know, put some jeans dealers in it and it's a major threat.
Don't care who you are. If you got a unique genes, To us
or to running around and that was one of the keys as well.
If you going to use one unit used to because one of them will
get a taste but then the other one will probably do the job on
its own. Frankly we see around you GT
look Holtz. Yeah which is a hangover from
very early white dwarf list for rogue Trader and, you know,
supplemental material around space Hulk which talked about
genestealers and G sealer, hybrids, specifically Patriarchs
and so on. So, we would usually covered for
that forward into here. As an alternate, kind of turned
it on with you could take in effect.
Some of the best fluff in my opinion, of course, has come
out, whether they were very well kind of like round now because
they've been around for a while and had various different things
written about them. Yeah, extremely Insidious,
extremely Insidious. And, again, that there were
great narrative tool as well. The fact they appear in so many
stories like black Library novels and things like that,
because the difficulty with attorneys that you get
narratively. Speaking is, you know, it's an
enormous High Fleet of gigantic. Eric bioships that invades you
eat your entire world. That there's not a great story
there, apart from the getting buried under my settings stores,
spores horror stories of being chased around by electoral.
What have you? Whereas your jeans do is they
can do the whole scheming and plotting and you know, rebelling
side of things which works well with the inquisitors and all the
rest of it. So there are great Boon, well
worth keeping it weirdly though, I noticed one of your questions.
So like, oh, you know, that putting them in the second dish
code executed, consigned them to Oblivion for a long time
thereafter because they just got absorbed into the tyranids, to
be honest, they would have been gone completely by.
Now, if we hadn't have done that because some people at the
studio didn't like to instill a Colts, we had to kind of fight
to get them in in the first place.
Yeah, that's good Insight. So, and that's why they didn't
really appear in 3rd edition of tool it took until Till what
many decades later. Yeah.
It's more than a couple I think
now you might be Horace. Yeah, true.
But it is comparatively recent and from what I've seen that
absolutely ball. A job, all kinds of different
exciting stuff based off like doing a rebellion Force because
they're what they're in, what they are is an interesting Rebel
Force rather than just sort of like oh we've been infected by
chaos and I'm going to turn against the Emperor or Rune
infected by communism or something.
These guys have been infected by you know a genuine creeping
alien intellect, very again. It's all the Classic 50's
fear-mongering films about the spread of alien ideas, you know,
basically a liqueur is about communism at the time.
Which are embodied in the gene. Still a cult.
So yes, I can do that. Hello fiction?
We can go ever so some very brightly colored.
Carnufex has? Yeah.
Just scrolling past all the beautifully painted models.
Yeah, the high tire and the carnufex just so iconic.
You guys Jazz them up a bit. Obviously, for some of the, the
new photos for this codex, those kind of fixes with different
colored heads, but the bodies remain uniform, which I've
always thought was really cool. Yeah.
Unfortunately those Lehman russes of have it cooked.
Yeah, the maps of the influences.
Well of we're turning heads had sort of coming to it.
We'll always use their overall, the next page only because they
are all Imperial been shown that this big inroads.
Yeah, I always like maps and codex has to give some sense of
sort of like just place and Direction even though it's a bit
of a nonsense when you talking about an entire galaxy but it
helps with visualization. So and also to try and pile on
this idea that they've been successive waves.
There wasn't just one turn into high Fleet She's kind of to
break down on that idea in advance, space be safe, wherever
there was just less tsunami of tournaments, and that would be
it they would eat the entire galaxy.
It's like, well, we need to break that down a bit, really,
don't we? So, let's see how that coming
in, in waves in effect which the Imperium being the Imperium
dubs. These different ponderous
titles. But it's just the next wave of
Terror and it's coming in basically and did you ever
answer the question of what the banisters incident want?
Nope, knocking my knowledge it may have been answered but I I
remember a again we would actually drop stuff like that
all over the place it cause we knew that then we could come
back to it later and go like our okay, here's a white dwarf
article or whatever or scenario or something.
But yeah, we'd have bitterly put all kinds of things into you
there. The evolution of such as search
and things like that. Very cool.
You always come back and develop a later.
Excellent. Yeah.
It was just good, it was a good thing to do and it was very for
UK, as well. It's a historical thing as well,
when you read history of whatever Punic Wars, they'll
turn to refer off to other things like you.
Obviously, you would know about it, you know?
And it was kind of capturing a bit of that sense, as well of,
like, history was bigger than what you're reading right now.
And what this is about, there are other things that have
happened, but we're not even going to get into that right
now. He go, yes.
I guess roaming the Kydex, also introduced New Missions, tier
need specific ones. The most difficult being in my
opinions here and attack where you had to wipe out every single
one of your opponent's models to win, but you didn't get
reinforcements on that one, huh? Yeah, you just dribbled
everything back in as soon as you could form a squad or
whatever just toss it back in, it was Challenging.
It was fun. And I guess exhausting, for some
people, probably, I mean, it was supposed to be, you know, last
and rorke's drift, kind of a scenario, so yeah, you wax.
Yeah. Endless waves of Turin is so
those were the times of the you are glad that you bought like,
cheap units, the reason to wipe out because they could just come
straight back. Yeah, exactly.
That's right. Obviously we went over the event
tables but they're listed in the critics which is great.
Yeah, I can't feel chuffed enough about those always slept
and I guess the other thing I wanted to mention was the
bioweapons. We've gone over their fantastic.
They really kept with the theme and a lot of them have just
carried on. And they've evolved a little bit
here and there. Unfortunately, they got rid of
the flame spur, which sucks, but what needed biomorphs, they were
essentially the hot thing in this codex because suddenly you
could tool up your high point, you kind of fix etcetera to be
tougher. Will do specific.
Things couldn't have War gear before this.
And that's, that's what they are.
They're will get here. But the Kind of pernicious as
will get because we're doing the Syrian Army because they're
effectively the Waka Choice. They're also an open option for
lots of other things, like 200 Warriors, which is quite
interesting, so they tend to individually.
That's not, I was going to say they individually.
Don't necessarily do a lot, but when it's not combining, the get
quite strong, but there are some standout wants to be fair that
like same voltage, feel being the classic one.
I never personally felt the Regeneration was worth it, but a
lot of people looks like it. Richard from bringing battle
swears by the optic membranes and honestly, yeah, he's he's
got something going there because all it takes is a flash
from a conversion field or something, or Photon flare and
and everyone's bucket in your entire cheering it on this.
So it's something yeah. Thank you, Todd.
Yeah, it's a question of, you know, how much you want to throw
at it? Because this is the other thing
is you could like double the cost of your hive torrent with
10 more. So if you weren't careful, So it
was worth taking some cheap ones and it was like, well, which
one's the cheap ones are worth it.
Oh yeah. They'll go like by a plasma
attack, for example, 40 points of the model and so on.
And then another thing, Richard also mention was enhanced senses
are great, because suddenly that assassin, who wants to sneak up
and throw a Vortex Grenadier? You can't really do that
anymore. If it's on your higher fire ant
or what? Yeah, ironically was cuz I think
considering the worries like 1:30, I am all for it like that.
Yeah, that was one of the three sizes, too.
Big to Notorious actually was like, you know, bring some light
lonely ones, not particularly equipped or anything like that.
But with enhanced senses with kind of worthwhile though if I
remember right? I think the link to my have done
a similar job as well. I think that had enhanced senses
other, it is 1.4 optic membrane. Yeah faulted field, it did
everything, that gave you plus one strength it could.
If you got hit it could burn out any me.
The unit's Fields things like that.
It was just fantastic. I'm highly recommend that if you
never playing sand, all all for only 20 points, which is why I
say I tended to, I think actually to be fair, I thought
you took the warp field for the hive Tyrant because you don't
want to mess around. But yeah the voltage field was
such a bargain and again to really Warriors of the voltage
field was certainly a giant pain in the ass.
Yeah. Bones towards felted field.
Ha ha ha ha. And again easy to ignore because
they're not shooting at you and turn it.
Worries you shooter you should well they draw fire back but if
they get up to you with v of fields and Bone Source, they're
actually lethal. But that guy's so much.
It's true and false in case you haven't figured that out right
now, actually, and another thing was the tourney had sworn
selection. The percentages of what you
could take, were wildly different from other armies.
You could take 50% for individuals, which was, you
know, not a normal thing to 25% Broods, but support you can take
50% of your army could be support which is a big deal.
So yeah, you could feel. Yeah.
Well it did to her. Have a lot of Support options
overall correct. What you do have is like
carnufex is super expensive sport model, super cheap, and by
ovals, so you didn't have an awful lot of options and it was
mainly in there to allow people to have mass carnufex armies was
white 50% because if it was lower than that you could really
fit too many. Carnufex as then, where is it?
50% obviously, is as long as they can.
Out with them, you can still get a decent number.
Carnufex is into a like, 1500 Point Army.
Yeah. And then we come to the
genestealer called lifts. I mean, I've had a lot of fun
with it myself. You can take chaos allies, which
was really fun. And, of course we get, you have
an agreement with your opponent and you can take really fun.
Things like chaos, Colton, some baseman, and stuff like that.
Like that and sort of echo what was going on in Road trailer
where you could have genestealer Cultus with corn, you know,
symbols worshippers Etc. Yeah, it was a big grab bag.
Call Army. Really, I mean, we hadn't done a
chaos Colt Army per se either. So it was just an opportunity.
Cults of any stripe you wanted overall. - fine.
I guess the tactics of the tyranids in the end like you can
have a read of this. It had a lot of good info in it
codex itself but when the Codex first came out I think a lot of
people were really sort of having to get quite a few games
in before they found out what works and what worked against
her opponents. And one thing I found Was
turning into a so strange and weird.
Your opponent had would struggle with finding out what the hell
is going on in your army, and that would be to your advantage
as well. Yeah.
The well, that plus the boiler Morse when there was a sultan
variability to the army of like they it was very hard to know
what was going to be coming down.
The point you when you were facing a terminal me, plus the
the you know, the various factors of the random.
Events table, screwing up. Whatever plan you have.
So it was an Army that you need to be quiet adapt fight against
difficult Army to use in many regards because it very, very
much Works in like self-supporting what rather not
self-supporting mutually supporting elements.
So part of learning to use it is to learn to you.
So like several different things to get the same thing.
Classic example, being like you could take four units of jeans
too. Certainly.
And if they get your enemy than that, will destroy them.
But the chances are, they were get there because you don't have
enough other sporting elements. So the battle cannons will be
raining fire upon them and all the rest of it.
So you kind of have to present this, or like, multi threat
environment, or of, which some bits of start going through
them, the cracks of the pyramid, more things that get through.
So it wasn't on the surface, very easy to use it because it
could be knocked apart fairly easily by in a big Weaponry
anyway. Well, the Occasional Rogue full
text, and things like that. So it is not the easiest deal me
in the world to get to the snow. But once you knew it, it was
absolutely deadly. It was my experience of it.
I have to agree that not in the cows codex.
Brutal. Brutal forces to play against,
but, you know, to be fair, we were coming up against Elder
which were just ridiculously overpowered, in my opinion.
But you know what to think. Can say about second edition
cutting. See, there's not many codexes,
you can go like oh, these guys are really weak sauce.
You know, they're really hope the mustard is like every one of
them is brutal in their own way. Yeah, yeah.
I don't know, you know what, your somebody, somebody can rush
to correct yet even Orcs when it comes second edition codexes.
But I think there was none of them that I ever thought of as
being a pushover. Yeah, just based on what their
army was like, I'm no none of them are going to say Space
Marines, for a minute there, but no, not even them.
Was there anything that you would have cut out, or was going
to be in the Codex, but just didn't didn't make it.
For second edition. Yeah, no, I don't think so.
I mean, we were scrambling to try and include as many things
as possible, because you got to remember, tyranids hadn't really
been hugely developing when we're done that white and white
dwarf Army list and, you know, they've been space or could
Advance pastry chef, but it was still a matter of taking the
elements. And okay, we will get into
actually adds new units here to the budget as is, well, like, we
can have this many new units, but I Remember anything that
fell by the wayside that point we didn't get to do anything
with larger Vehicles which we kind of discussed.
But there was nothing really an epic, that felt strong enough to
bring across everything that was good, like the Herod and stuff
like that were too big, really bringing second edition or so we
thought at the time. So outside of Salt Lake, Brew
Brothers in tanks and stuff like that, there wasn't any Prospect
for doing vehicles for them. But now, we basically went
through Everything. Because I say it's a weird place
because it was kind of developed very close on the heels sort of
in parallel with Hive or for epic which is why you know the
Epic 200 frame at that time has got things like it's got a
lecture on it, it's got gargoyles on it and things like
that because the designs were already around, quite a long
way. In advance of when we actually
did the second edition codex is go.
Remember this is one of the last codexes we did.
Over the course of the second edition.
So yeah, we took everything we had on hand and rammed it in the
book. I wasn't happy that we actually
managed to get some models made for it because there was by no
means a guarantee in those days and we actually got a decent
dish range. This one well definitely hooked
me into the game, that's for sure.
We've got our whole heap of questions from the community and
probably get Josh to pop in here because he's collated, A few out
of hundreds and yeah again any thanks very much for coming on
my today to talk to Ben and us about 2 minutes and we've got a
few questions from our community members as well.
So Brandi, dog, he asks who will eventually conquer the Galaxy?
Will it be tyranids or chaos? Do you think?
I don't know. Overall, I don't think anybody
will conquer the Galaxy in that fashion.
I think it's locked into an eternal future of warfare
between whatever's there because that also just ignores neck runs
entirely. You can't let alone are the
other forces. May yet be prevailed.
So I don't think anybody's going to conquer the Galaxy.
Verify. That's a good answer.
Steve Queen also asked what was the idea behind the Ripper's
forms from a game point. They move slower than the rest
of the army and eat cover so effectively.
Effectively, they only really are at your own cover.
Well, some of this is we touched on this.
They're basically there to be cinematic more than anything
else and effectively almost free as an extra character.
Nothing in retrospect yet. Maybe they could have moved a
bit faster. Maybe they could have not eaten
cover if you didn't want them to or something like that, but I
think you also have to look them in context of scenarios like the
Syrian attack scenario where people in Africa swarms in
there, they will have a detrimental effect on your
opponent because over the course of the game they will eat all of
their cover so those four courses sort of thing.
But yeah, not the most brilliant unique in the universe.
I'll grant you that. Absolutely.
Be cool. Then dalgleish asks, when
tyranids were first envisioned. Did you ever think it would be?
It would get to the stage that they are at.
Now, in terms of Law and model types, I either needs will
eventually Devour the entire galaxy or the higher current
guard made from Space Marine DNA.
Yes. Absolutely.
I mean, Jazz talked about turn. It's a lot and that potential
and how they could be an interesting extra factor to
throw into the universe of something genuinely alien.
One of the things that people have mentioned before is like
oh, you know, in Rogue Trader turns in there, they've got like
Vulcans, they got by a Balkans and biopower arm and things like
that. That would have been more
interesting to do. I disagree, I strongly disagree.
There will be more interesting to do.
We already have faction. That's using bolt guns and power
armor, and all the rest of it to have somebody something that was
genuinely and an alien force that evolved over time.
Which it ironically because you put it on you Miniatures and do
new stuff. They have them and they're one
of the few races in 40K that you can say, has kind of like,
literally Embrace that and become more diverse and like,
grown into their ranges and evolved in a very real fashion
over time, I find that That immensely pleasing to mine own
eyes. So maybe I was wrong, maybe they
will conquer the Galaxy one day because they'll just become
cooler than everything else in it.
So, Mark Buckley also asked us Andy feel that some of the
Tyranny and artwork and minis were a bit cartoony.
Compared to the a, I like horror that the background and rules
felt like Some of it and some of it I don't like I'm not fond of
his own throat. And second edition, for example,
I much prefer the floaty braincase edition of it.
I wasn't a huge fan of the carnufex in itself.
I say it's kind of interesting but what do you do with that?
As I mentioned it can't go a lot of places in seen.
It was like a very specialized evolution in my eyes all the
time. But it was the Dreadnaught in
effects. It was kind of setting the
setting, the speed for everything else that was
Dreadnaught sized in some ways and I didn't like that but
overall no, I felt that the the artwork did a good cat.
Do did a good case of conveying? The alien horror enough of it?
There was a huge temptation to slide down the route hugely
into, you know, alien tiger stuff like that.
It's obviously was always an inspiration, exasperation team
behind space, Hulk, and so on. But I'm kind of glad it didn't
go too far down that route because Geiger is Geiger.
But the other thing that's alien and the these aren't supposed to
be alien per se there, this supposed to plug into the same
sort of theory that whole evolutionary discourse on what
happens to a race when they can evolve as they need to.
But you know, literally go down the guy group, that's Geiger.
Not fair last night. I thought the mark Gibbons
artwork is very evocative and Graham.
Yeah. So I think we're great Marcel.
Josh asks why no limousines anymore?
Like I think he means for the genus devil Cults because of the
that it might one. There was no model for it.
And really by second edition, it was already kind of a rule that
you didn't put stuff in the Codex.
Unless there was either a model for a reasonable plan to make a
model. Or it could be Directly
converted from existing models limousines.
Nothing like them existed anywhere in the Games Workshop
range. So yeah, you can go to a toy
store or something like that and find a car, a converter and
things like that. But we would really in the trade
of sending people to Toys R Us to go and buy their models.
So that was basically something that you'd cover in a white
dwarf or a journal article or something like that.
You don't put it in the make codex.
The bone. So that's why they disappeared.
Also in second edition, it wasn't a small thing to put a
vehicle in, you know, you had to do its own bill data facts, and
it's saying damage tables and all the rest of it, which we did
do eventually as they are thinking of the journal at some
point, but it was a reasonable sort of commission of resources
towards something that wasn't going to exist, and people
couldn't buy it. They could only make their own
and hence, it didn't make the cut for the Protects itself.
Okay, where's God asks, how did you manage the translation of
tyranids from the Ford eco into epic?
Whether it's where they balance issues ETC going from Skirmish
to large scale. Not really as I say I can't
remember the exact sequence but I feel like I actually did the
stuff on hive will before we did the second edition codex.
So it was far more of a sort of like being able to exercise that
theory about having mutually supporting elements on a large
scale before, rendering it down to a smaller scale.
So no it wasn't, it wasn't problematic.
It was really was good actually to exercise them at both levels.
I mean, one thing that we discovered Through that was that
the slug tanks and stuff like that.
We put into high for yeah, they didn't really do much for you
overall. There were tanks that look like
slugs and as much as I personally like, the idea I
pushed for those to go in, they didn't have legs sorry
unconscious upon them in the long term.
So there they were a bit of a bust and we kind of didn't
really touch on them, what we came to do 2nd edition, I know
that over in the US Army Last night, some like twenty eight
Mill, scale, epic slip tanks and so on.
Well, the malefactors her aspects has and stuff like that,
but we never really had any Prospect of putting them into
second edition. As a real addition, it was all
about the Infantry types. That works perfectly into the
next question from jingles and because he asked exactly that
question. What was the story behind the
armored cars tyranids with the Harrisburg similar effect and
all those other vehicles were there something that the design
studio felt the Codex was missing after release in terms
or was it just more of an opportunity to have more models
sculpted, or were the designs? You not even involved at all?
To the best of my knowledge. I don't know what we're after.
I think I'm a cast. Had some kind of a license.
I didn't know anything about it. Personally, they came as a
complete surprise to me. And yeah, I like I say there was
no intention of including them in the the Codex because we
weren't doing select things. So I think there would be more
being opportunistic or going like, because they do this with
a lot of stuff that was in the Epic scale and wasn't in second
edition 40K. It wasn't just look tanks.
It was all kinds of things that they did upscaled basically and
you know God bless them. They want to play with those
sort of things but they weren't part of the official range and
so they weren't supported as part of the official range.
Yeah, I'm a guy's a funny one eye because like you know, we I
remember seeing those in the 90s, you know people ordering
stuff from the US through my old to purchase these big resin kits
and the notion of actually have would actually have rules and
everything to use and when your game so it's a really I do yeah.
Like to investigate that more as to you know, who made the
decision. As two years, we'll give them
the license to make these properties based on IP and give
them the rules and who was doing that, and that kind of thing.
Because it's You got to remember the world was a much more of a
Loosey Goosey Place back. When the term intellectual
property is not one, I heard until about 1998.
I think we're talking early 90s here so it's entirely possible
that they spontaneously started making them on their own.
Then effectively got a semi license of some sort of Workshop
afterwards. I really don't know what went
down with those. Yeah, that's yes.
They had rules as well. I had nothing to do with those,
they just break their own thing. So they, as far as I was
concerned, they did their own thing and it was nothing to do
with the mainstream for UK. It's these days, I put down as
being like a fanservice kind of a thing to be 3D printing them
and so on and Publishing the rules, which are so I have no
problem with but it wasn't part of the main business.
As far as I was concerned. Cool.
And so I think we're going to say something.
I was just gonna say, I think Andy some quiet spot on the you
both right there. They got sort of like a
temporary license Etc. And then I think armacost sort
of turned into Forge World in UK, so whatever license they may
have had might have dropped off, but there's a lot of history
there and you probably have to do a whole episode on that.
Yeah, you you need to pursue that definitely because the fort
will that Games Workshop hands. Now Now who's got no
relationship to Old armor cast or and again they call
themselves Forge World for a time as I understood it.
So yeah, I don't know anything about that, man.
That's its do. That just write the rules, you
know, licensing and other people doing other stuff and other
continents Simon Hildreth asks, what changes would you make to
the code? It's like the second edition
codex. If you had a chance, I think we
sort of touched on it before as well.
Changes up make to it. I told some things down a bit.
I think, I don't think it to tone down that random events
table, somewhat certainly give it a review, giving them the
benefit of another 20. Something years of balanced,
looking through the stats, as we were doing, just then there,
there are some things, I mean, if I'm honest, this ball - the
bio balls are probably a bit over over tuned.
Zone throats definitely are. I probably try and help 200
Warriors a bit more though. As I say there was occupied a
really odd spot and struggled with it a little bit but I was
like them. So that was like an internal
problem that went on for another Edition for me.
But overall overall know there's not a great deal of change about
it at tweak, the balance here in a few places and stuff like
that. Basically try and make sure the
opposition got to have more fun. I was guilty of this in all of
my second edition code access where it was great fun to run
the army that codex was about. It wasn't necessarily great fun
to be only put on the receiving end of it although I could say
it was a bit mutually. With destruction back, then with
second edition codexes like that anyway.
But it might have been nice if, as well as the sort of like
horror movie aspects of it. There were some of the horror
movie tropes about how you fend off.
The to Anna Devane is like, oh, they're all vulnerable to Salt,
quick, men salt on your bullets. Get +1 strength, something like
that. If you see what I mean.
Yeah, analyzing of goop. And you get some sort of bonus
against them. I don't know which possibly
Shouldn't have lived in the criminal code, X itself should
have looked at some of the other ones.
I don't know, we didn't have quite the, the link together
thinking that we did. By the time we did Third
Edition, we were doing second edition.
It was very much like his codex, go off and write it.
Whereas we actually it's communicated a lot more about
how we handle the Codex as we did third.
So that's I think what I try and do is in retrospect to tone
things down a bit try and make it more of a Joint experience,
you know, maybe you have the first few terms with the
Turner's don't even show up, you know, all you got to worry about
is Ripper, swarms the lictors running around or something like
that, and then you introduce the turned information.
I don't know Senator Marco seconds and also I suggest
Golems drawings from a period where are amazing but his
designs didn't translate. So well into the Miniatures
where they deliberately turned down.
Or was that, was it just because a practical limitations, do you
think some of it was practical limitations of Mel?
I mean, you'll note that they all translated fantastically
into plastic when we ended up doing those in the next Edition
Mel is, you know, we talked about some of the problems like
metal gargoyles and melhor Merganser.
Those designs didn't work great as metal Miniatures in the end
but the other factor is it wasn't just me.
Acronym there they got formed out too.
Some less experienced Minister designers will just leave it at
that, shall we? For whatever reasons that the
management Studio felt the need to give them turn is due.
At the time, there was a kind of a bit of a push to try and get
the Miniatures designers to try different things and maybe find
something that would be there. You know best range to work on
and things like that which didn't always have happy results
the early necrons kind of fell then fell into the same trap as
well as like ours is an interesting space Collins and
yeah that kind of cool though. Those only necrons but they
don't have much they have the feel of his someone off snot, he
is part of a range and to a certain extent, the these early
turn is in 2nd edition to have the same thing of light.
He is just a one-off monster sort of thing rather than and
evolving member of a swarm. That's Across the gallop into
lactic space and is now arrived. And is adapting to your Galaxy
even as we speak. Whereas by the time it hits 3rd
Edition, you do get Plastics to support that more readily and a
lot more work with biomorphs actually representing the by
morse on the models that that starts to gel together a lot,
better trying to work with Mel Rangers was always a bit tricky
on that front. Well, thank you and Andy and the
last question we have is from never never, never Ness.
Hobbies was the decision to roll the jeans to the cult as an army
into the second edition codex, based off the law and where was
it going at the time? Or one based on sales store sale
sales, prep space, allocation that decision, buried the diesel
a cold and it looks, it took them two decades to come back
and we sort of touched on this before.
Yeah. Talking about this one went
through the the pastry entrance for them of like, if they hadn't
gone in this codex, that would be gone by now, man, they're
just been gone. There were enough, people who
wanted to bury jeans, still Colts forever around the studio,
that this was their last best shot that remaining in the law.
And so, they did certainly, that's how we felt from my end,
the time there. So there was resistance to
putting them in there, I strongly disagree that, it
buried them for decades. I think it's saved them.
I see I really like the gentler causes actually, it's probably
one aspect of the gene of the old tyranny Army that I never
played to him as never collected models or painted them along
like that. But it was one aspect of the my
really appealed that was also part of the point of having the
chance to look cool. In here words, it was neezy.
A half step away from. Oh hey you know what?
I've got my box of space Hulk. I've already got 24 Gs dealers.
Oh hey, I've actually got some Imperial Guard.
I've got a Lehman, Russ all I got to do now is by a Magus and
I've got Jesus look, all Tommy, and it's also more tanks and so
you can sell some more tanks or even potentially sell people on
the idea of, you know, expanding their hybrid Force.
Then maybe get some tyranids stuff in there later and so on.
So it was an approachability thing.
As much as anything else and I decide narratively it was
important to have tin is not just as the indomitable wave of
Flesh crashing down on your planet but also something more
Insidious that could work. Work behind the lines can strike
anywhere in the Imperium at any time.
Was a very useful narrative to hope to have for them.
Shame that the, the all hybrids didn't make it in there, I don't
know. I think the world could do
without those correctly and painted up quite a few recently.
My loving, I think they're really good.
Thanks for saving the Janesville cult, because that's my
perception of it. Except, oh, don't go to the pan
with that too much. But it Kind of delighted me.
I must confess when they came out full force was like, Hey,
plastic Rangers and bikes are the vehicles of everything.
It's like everything you could have ever dreamed of really by.
Yeah, I think they had a very uncertain future back in the
early 90s, I can tell you Well, Andy Payne, it's been an
absolute fascinating ride going through the Codex alternates.
I've been educated a lot in this in our conversations today and
even extend our greatest, thanks again from myself and been in
the community for taking your time out on your Monday, mate.
Monday afternoon to come and talk to us about it and to share
your knowledge and your memories.
I hope they're all good. Memories, of course, from the
90s in the production of the chimneys codex.
Ben. If any final thoughts bag unit,
you can extend 2nd. I look, thanks for creating the
greatest 40K race, of course, hands, not just me.
Yeah, of course, of course, but your names on the kind of look,
I don't want to say too much because that's very crunchy, but
thanks for entertaining us for all the years.
Obviously, thanks for continuing to do so, and lending your
expertise to or games table. Top Games Etc.
Is there anything you're working on at the moment or you want to
plug or anything like that? Two things, actually, multiple
things, if you'll forgive me for a moment, if you've enjoyed my
skirmish games in the past, like second edition stuff and so
forth. Take a look at warlord.
Games 2000 ad selection of games that mean car full of come up
with strontium dog, Judge, Dredd, and slain the moment for
a fantasy version of them. And they kind of embody some of
the the the cray cray of second edition in many ways, but
wrapped up in a nice modern set of mechanics, which might well
make your brain burst in quite the same way but they do
actually manage to embody some of that feel they're very small
level skirmish games you know as little as two to six guys aside
but they're a good laugh. So those there's one check that
out. If you like my kind of stuff.
The other one is I've done World War Two.
Mass aerial combat game, Blood Red Skies, which is probably the
best designed game I've ever done.
In my life is the simplest simplest to learn and the
hardest to master and it works with three stats.
So I'm very proud of that and the other thing that I wanted to
mention. So that's also from warlord
games. By the way, Blood Red Skies,
Midway Edition is out now. So you can go and bomb the
carrier's ink the flattop as they say in Ghostbusters.
The other thing I wanted to mention is I am actually working
on a, let's say, twenty eight Twenty, Eight Mill, tabletop,
Skirmish game of the moment. Sci-fi kind of Mecca, based kind
of a bit anime, Which I will, I'm going to be looking for play
testers for over the coming months because we're moving into
private play testing at the moment.
And this is actually all the many things that worked on down
the years. This is the one that's kind of
actually going to be painting miniatures again.
So I think it's going to be fun but I'd like some feedback.
So a lot of people write to me over the years and say oh if you
were warned if you want feedback and things like that, let me
know I'm asking for that now. If you would can contact me at
the Ernie Chambers at hotmail.com or you can find me
on Facebook under any Chambers. And let me know if you willing
to help out. And let's see where that goes.
I'll put get married or be sags because I got numb in my soul
that be right up My Salsa Ali. Ya, ya, ya know, the game sounds
great. I'll definitely drop links in
the show notes as well. So people who want to go and
check out and he's links for his, his personal email or on
Facebook, please have a look at the show, description notes in,
will see them down there. I'll drop a link in there for
warlord games because and he's worked a lot with those game
systems you've heard through for 2000 ad and slain of course is
probably the latest one that and he's released Flames.
The latest wants to come out. Those are all ongoing that's
going strap on your belly wheel and take a look at that.
Judge Dredd stuff. Yeah.
Absolutely. You want to play the league of
fatties? You can?
I got Miniatures and everything for a man.
Sounds good night. Not going to check it out and
Christmas is approaching. So they should put something in
their Christmas stocking. I think this year, something new
and Blood Red Skies as well. So you've got lots of stuff
there, but then he's working at the moment and made that make a
game. Sounds really interesting.
So I'm looking forward to seeing what that turns out to be
eventually so that yeah, watch this space was his post on.
So there will be more coming for that over the course of
particularly next year, I think All right, awesome.
Okay, my good sir. Thank you very much again.
Any, thanks again, Dan for tonight, and have a great
Christmas and New Year. Both of you and take care.
We'll see you in the new year sometime.
Hopefully, it does have a good one guys.
Thanks for having me on today. It's always a great pleasure.
You, you're a great pains to make me feel very welcome so I
really appreciate that. Indeed have a good holidays for
you two as well. Thanks Andy, thanks very much
and I appreciate it very much, so thank you.
Take care. Bye bye.
Take care. Bye.
The Scavengers struggling for words, over the debris,
littering the corridor, the soup.
Like sparely penetrating, the swirl of dust kicked up by their
progress. This section of the space, Hulk
was a complete wreck. The corridor walls were buckled
and twisted ancient cabling spill from rents in the ceiling
and the mangled floor plate, jutted up at such angles, that
the group's movement was slowed to a crawl.
The men were a mismatch of patched space suits and pieces
of armor. Most carries shoulder armed with
pistols, but the leader packed a path forward with a glowing
power supply. The lights picked out a You're
way ahead, the Deep Shadows within it jerked, and length as
the men, struggle through hordes it.
The leader stepped inside the doorway, and swept his light
around the chamber Beyond thick. Riveted pipes obscured the
ceiling, but the floor was mostly clear, man.
Hi, curiously, curved objects clustered thickly on the walls
of the edge of sight. Sneaking tubes or cables seem to
interconnect them and Trail a way across the floor.
The rest of the gang entered fanned out covering all parts of
the shadowy chamber with their last guns and auto Pistons as
their leader moved to examine the objects.
At first he could not determine their purpose at all.
They glittered in the light like black shiny seeds, the tubes
were of a similar Hyun but with a bluish patina, where they
spread over the basis of the objects and divided.
To dozens of fine a filaments when he saw that.
Some of them were open. He finally understood and the
hairs rose on the nape of his neck, just as a cold sick
sensation Rose in his stomach, he spun round to shout at the
rest of the run, but it was already too late man-like,
creatures with for Claude arms. Dropped from the pipes above and
ripped into the I'm with impossible speed screams and
shots echoed around the corridor as the men were torn apart.
But none of the black blue figures fell in a few
Heartbeats. The Leader stood alone.
The creatures stalked closer their body is crouched as if
ready to spring their pallid bulbous heads and Fang filled
Moore's glittering in the light. The leader flourished his power
sword with more confidence than he felt the blade was instantly,
not from his hand by a blow that was too quick to see as the
creatures. Darted forward powerful claws
gripped. His limbs The man was held
helpless as one of the genestealers leaned closer, the
hollow needle of its ovipositor slithered out of its tongue.
Questing almost gently towards the man's face.
One month later. Free Captain Lamas landed at
gray area too. With a most unusual cargo.