Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Chronic Command
Podcast. This is Josh, your host.
And today marks a very special time in the podcast history as
we have just reached 100,000 plays as in downloads and I hope
listens. So it's remarkable to discover
that on Friday afternoon as I was preparing a bachelor's meal
and beer, to watch some movies that night as I was home alone,
and then to have that notified on my phone was really a another
crowning achievement for the crown of a man.
So thank you so much to all of our guests that have been part
of this community project now for four years, and especially
to all the collaborations I've made with people who have made
their own content or gone ahead and interviewed other people for
your listening pleasure. So thanks everyone who's been
part of the Credit Card Podcast and long may it continue.
So talking about collaborators, we've got Matthias and Dave back
again for Part 2. I thought I'd release this one a
little bit earlier for you guys and keep it to a Sunday schedule
if possible. So every Sunday, well, that's my
Sunday. It's probably going to be your
Saturday evening, depending on where you are in the world, but
just so that you have something to listen to over the weekend
rather through midweek. So I hope you enjoy the second
part of our Empire Wahama Army's deep dive.
And the guys are now working on the high off book and we also
have Owen Staton's wonderful deep dive series as well.
The next one will be the Dark Elves, which you can now listen
for free. Any free member or paid member
on Patreon can access that audio right now.
So I wanted to gift everyone given that it's 100,000 plays
and we've reached another little milestone that click the link
below in the show note description here for the Patreon
and you can go and listen to that right now.
And that'll be the next podcast released for the Chronic
Command. So thanks again to Owen, another
wonderful collaborator. And, and I really enjoy
listening to his voice. His commanding voice, I should
say, has he's the, he's kind of the, the, what do you want to
call it? What do I call him?
The chronicler of the old world, like this old man, like Gandalf
wandering the old world's grey mountains.
And he tells and recites these stories, times past and heroes
that once lived amongst these lands.
So thanks again Owen for that mate.
I really appreciate it. And people on Patron are
enjoying that now, but they'll be out for next week.
So without further ado, let's get on with our Empire deep
dive. And as you can have done that.
Yep. And I think they do deserve a
better faith than simply dying to fanatics.
They definitely have the uses, you know, disrupting and picking
on war machines. So you know.
I used them, but I say recently, it was probably a year ago now,
but I used them with a champion in their unit against orcs and
gollies. And there's a in Chronicles of
War, there's a 5 point magic boat.
OK, that doesn't seem that brilliant, you know, But what it
allows you to do is it gives you plus one to hit.
Yeah, which is quite handy, Yeah, from a shot.
But also it allows you to fire before the movement fights if
you want to with that model. So in actual fact, it's it's
not, is it plus one to hit? It's not a -. 1 to hit because
you because you'll find before you move.
So you don't get that -1 for movement, for on, on your shot.
So in effect, it's a +2 to hit. OK, still in one short, it's at
Strength 3, but for five points, I think that's quite a quite a
handy little item for for for any bow on champion, Yeah.
And as you say, it's magic, so you can exactly also.
Wounds things like demon. Well, you've got, you've got a
Rolton wound, but in in essence, it can do damage to like a demon
or, or or a race or ghosts or anything like that.
It's a magic shot. Yeah, nice little item.
I don't have all the Chronicles of War items so I I think I'm
looking. For them, I think he gave
promotion time. I think someone, I think it
might have been me or Josh, uploaded them to the file
section of. The publishing group.
So so you can get them there. Yeah, but I need.
The actual We want the actual files, and they're so hard to
come by. Oh yeah, probably.
It is probably the rarest thing from 4th you're going to get.
Yeah. And I mean, I would have liked
the entire box, but I mean that's going to cost.
I don't know what it's not going to be cheap if you want.
It's going to be a lot, yeah, yeah.
I think years ago you could have probably picked up.
It's still been expensive because they're rare, but not
today's price. Today's prices is going to mean
it's it's ridiculously expensive.
I was very lucky and brought it at the time so.
I don't think you, yeah, I think it's going to start at, you
know, 100. At least, Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. And there's, you know, for a
handful of magic items, they're very, some cases a little bit
overpowered, maybe some of them. Yeah.
There's things like a potion, a good one for champions,
actually. There's a potion of battle in
there, right? It's a 15 point item, but you
get D6 extra attacks. Oh yeah, yeah.
But if you get 7 attacks or more you collapse after the fight.
So that's why it's good for a champion.
But maybe not. And and champion was something
like a unit of halberdiers or a unit of spear armed cavalry.
So I often give it to a goblin boss in Wolf Boys because it's
they got the plus one to strength along with the that
attack. So I think it's useful for a
champion, the last player. So yeah, kind of like the the
bow there, there are little items there, low cost items that
are quite, quite nice to give to people.
And I think a halberdier champion probably would benefit
from that as well. Whether it's very empire potion
of battle is another matter. Yeah, maybe not.
Yeah, not. As an option.
But yeah, cool is that is that horse arch as we've done now
then? Yep, and then we have the
shining stars, the Empire. Infantry from the Empire, Yeah,
They could have one unit. Flatulence.
Yeah. Yeah.
Not about the weapon skill. They've not got the weapon
skill. You can't take a champion in
there. No, but.
They're they're brilliant. Yeah.
I mean, there's really no compromised to be had either.
I mean, they're OK, They don't have the Western skill, but
that's not a big deal, you know, Western skill 3 is OK.
I mean, you still hit most stuff, so do you know?
Actually, think about, actually, I don't think there's anything
that says they can't have a champion, but they often not
have friends. Yeah, but maybe you make him a
warrior priest so he doesn't have spells.
Yeah, but he's just a a champion in there.
Normal, normal stats for a champion.
He's not got the friend. They don't have friends.
No, they don't. No, they're not unbreakable.
So he would be breakable though. That's the only issue.
So bit like the undead, you know where where characters don't
necessarily have the unbreakable rule or they can be broken.
A champion in for agents possibly run away, but at least
the play agents would stay there and he'd get away.
Yeah, but I mean the the only reason, OK, maybe you want some
modern nice models to show off, but the only reason to include a
champion in a flood unit would be to bring some sort of magic
item I suppose. Because otherwise I mean a
champion won't bring any hitting powers to unit.
No, he might. He might bring that whole
survivability thing with a flying creature charging them
though. A matter of on a flying
creature, he issues the challenge, takes all of the OR
any other characters charging him for that matter.
But you know, it's more pronounced with a flying hero
or, or or character. But yeah, he can take those
hits. You know there's no overkill so
you can only do 1 wound. Yeah, but I mean, if you, if you
have a big unit of ladinance, say 20, they care about it.
Yeah. No, unless it's some sort of
ridiculous friendship corn Lord or something used to soak them
in. Yeah.
Yeah, or dragon rider or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. But that that's kind of it just
lit. I've never done it.
It's never occurred to me before now it's just Oh no, they don't
get a champion. And I've thought about it with
plague monks for as well. There's no plague monk champion.
If you want a character that is frenzied to go in there, it's
got to be a play priest. Yeah, it can't be.
AI think there should be kind of a household.
Maybe you can take the frenzied blade and for a champion, sorry,
they get that frenzy and then you know, because typically I
think it says that the character can't lead a unit.
But I think if the unit is frenzied, I don't see an issue
with taking the frenzy blade for a for a champion for a unit that
has frenzy to emulate that special rule for them.
Yeah, but but either way, I mean flatulence, they don't need a
boost really as they. No they don't.
They are pretty cool. 2 attacks, toughness for and on the turn
they charge. Well they probably don't charge
that often. They get obviously the strength
bonus of the flail. Yeah, but I I think they get the
strength bonus first round either way.
You know they. Are charged, so yeah.
Oh, OK All right. Yeah, yes, they would.
Yeah. It just says yeah, it doesn't
say chart. Yeah, no, you're right.
Absolutely. So yeah, they're, they are
pretty useful. Obviously protracted fights,
it's more becomes a nutritional fight because they they they're
not running away, they don't get the strength bonus.
But I mean, that's a capital base anyway.
Yeah. And they they're always going to
have the two attacks. So I mean, yeah, even in these
subsequent terms, they're going to be superior to any other
infantry choice, so. Yeah.
And for 10 points, that's, that's a very healthy stat line.
Yeah, it's, you know, Slayers don't have a stat line that
good. Now they've got an.
Extra point of weapon skilled dwarf slaves and they have the
Slayer rule about the strength thing, but the actual base stats
for the points 10 points, the model that's that's pretty good.
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's, I think it has
found the the best infantry unit if you go and look at just, you
know, what you get for the points, they're quite excellent.
So yeah, yes, I agree totally. And I almost always used them
because they were good. I think they were never featured
in a white dwarf batter report during 4th or 5th.
No, they weren't. Well, they weren't.
They weren't part of that Citadel range of models.
They were Marauder and they weren't, you know, if they use,
I don't think they use Wrights Guard foot either at any point.
But if they use Wrights Guard foot, I'm pretty sure it'd just
been the Citadel. Yeah, and I, I think the only
one I I know they used something they it was the that sort of
hybrid, the 3rd, 4th battle where it was the vampire versus
Moodle something. Yeah, but even that was just
using the latest models as well, except though I think the Wizard
was an older one. Not by that's it wasn't that
much older, but they didn't use any of the Marauder stuff in
that battle. No, maybe they used it in one of
the mega battles they did. The really big ones, possibly.
Yeah, Gathering of Might. They certainly used Wright's
Godfoot in that. Whether they did much I can't
remember, but but typically, no, they didn't use them.
But yeah, the models were beautiful.
Some hate them. They are loving all load them
model those flagellants that were around at that time because
they do have humongous. They also like Hobbit feet.
A bit. I didn't used to like them a
lot, but now I do and I'm thinking about remaking or
repainting that unit. Actually, they're a bit aged by
now, so we'll see. Lovely unit.
Lovely. Weirdly in in thirds you could
only take up to 16. At most you have two years and
eight was the maximum you could have.
I mean they did have frenzy in that and frenzy in 3rd is
different to frenzy in. 4th Frenzy in 3rd.
Gives you kind of pluses to hit, pluses to your save, all sorts.
It's a frenzy is is the most powerful psychological effect
you can get in 3rd. In fourth, it's just it can be a
liability. But flashes don't have frenzy.
But the point is that in 3rd they did and I said you could
only have two units of eight and that was the, it wasn't even you
could take 5/8. It was just they came in blocks
of eight. That was it in bird.
So you know that you couldn't do what you do in three and 4th
where you'd have one big ranked up unit.
You couldn't do that. You know, the most you were
going to get was 1 + 1 for rank bonus with with the UFA agents
there. So they were kind of more of a
speed bump unit. OK.
They were nasty to fight and they would do a lot of damage.
But they were. Yeah, they weren't, they didn't
have huge survivability beyond maybe one or two turns.
Whereas Flagrance, you know, you could have Flagrance in in, in
fourth charged in the first term by some magical means.
And they're possibly still going to be fighting come the end of
the battle, you know, in that same combat, maybe, you know, So
it's yeah, they're they are. They are definitely the best
equipped unit in in 4th edition the Empire list anyway for for
combat. Yep, Yep.
And then we have the dwarfs. So what's your point on that?
Is it I? Don't simply use them.
To be honest with you, the the whole not being able to have a
champion is kind of a bugbear. Well, not be able to have a
dwarf champion, this kind of bugbear.
I know in friendly games you can just, you know, you preview you.
Yeah, I don't think anyone would be terrible.
There are some people out there I think would be, but anyone
that I would normally play, no, I don't think they would have an
issue with. It I mean you're obviously have
to agree on it, but I imagine most people would be OK to maybe
not all. Yeah, absolutely.
But do you know what those white knight have you?
Have you? You must have seen like what?
I think they're available from the assault group now, but
there's there's some really nice Renaissance style dwarfs.
But what it might do that, you know, spear men or Pike men,
spear men, Pike men, crossbow men.
That's I'm not sure about. OK, it's it gives a different
model. But if I'm going to be arming my
dwarfs for crossbows, I might as well arm humans for crossbows
because yes, they have exploited toughness.
But again, if you're, if you're, if our troops are in combat,
something's gone wrong. Yeah, yeah.
But the leadership is. Oh yeah, yeah, it's true.
Yeah, Actually, yeah. No, you're right.
Yeah, it does add to the leadership as well.
And obviously if they do it in combat, they've also got the
point of weapon skill as well. But generally speaking, you
know, it's cheaper to have a unit of human cross women than a
than a dwarf cross wing. But from an aesthetic point of
view, from an actual looking at the point of view, there's an
argument for including dwarf crossbow men there.
And can they have handguns? No, they can't.
That's something else. They should give them the option
for handguns as well. So they can be either.
I think just to reiterate that fact, they are empires dwarfs,
not normal dwarfs, if that makes sense.
Yeah, Yeah. So maybe they're mercenaries.
I don't know, but they are. But, you know, they are, you
know, emperors. So having a handgun as an option
for a standard dwarf I think should be should be there.
I think that's missing that should be there and possibly
even great weapons as well. You know, double handed swords,
because that's the other thing. There's some really nice Zvi
handler models in that range from white knight that are with
that. I said that with tag now or the
assault group. There's some really nice double
handed sword armed dwarfs that you know with big puffy sleeves
and big feathery hats. That.
They would be brilliant in there.
They'd be absolutely awesome in there.
So yeah, I think, I think the options are limited there for
the dwarfs to make them a 100% definite include unit.
Yeah. For me anyway, other people
swear by them because they would argue they're better than
flagellants in the sense if you can have more units of them and
there are more options there, you know you can Spears to.
Also, Spears are really nasty, you know, because if you add the
toughness of the high weapons skills and high leadership,
Spears just add, you know, for a unit that's either attritional
or going to get charged anyway, Spears really useful.
But yeah, I think they could have more options in there.
Yeah, personally and theoretically you can make
empire army with only dwarfs. Yeah, but no.
Yeah, but no dwarf general. No, the general, yeah.
You need a human general to keep in line, yeah.
Yes you can, absolutely. You could easily make empire
army with the dwarfs and then have human characters like
Wizards and all that. So you could do not Lord you
could do The Hobbit with an empire army that you can't do
unless you use allies with the dwarf list, Yeah.
I never used them back in the days.
I think maybe because there was wolf play in the group that felt
a bit dirty, so we didn't do that.
But yeah, I I definitely could do today.
I have some dwarf units. Yeah, the idea.
Of making I quite like the idea of actually doing rather than
having them in the army that way, but actually having dwarf
allies, but using, you know, the the puffin slash dwarfs as dwarf
allies may and seeing them more as a mercenary force.
And then you can have the handguns and you can have
cannons as well. So you're increasing the number
of cannons. That's a bit dirty, but you but
you can Max out your war machines and then still have
cannon from allies. But you could do that with any
army. You know, that's not something
that's to Empire, but I think it would actually be quite fitting
to have like the great cannon alongside them, the more
expensive but worse dwarf cannons.
You know that that classic dwarf cannon from from late 3rd early
for with the with the puffin slash type crew.
You know that alongside them, but in but as a mercury force.
Yeah, now that that's often appealed.
And I almost did that this last year where I've been doing the
empire army that I've painted up.
I almost did some dwarfs and I started painting them and I
wasn't happy with the paint job and, and, and so I'll come back
to them and just never, never got back to them.
I will do it at some point. I will paint that.
I'll paint up a mercenary. Dwarf was used in 3rd because
thirds are really weird in that they include a dwarf ally list
in the army's book, but don't say anyone can use there.
There's a section of which allies you can take and none of
them have dwarfs. They've got a dwarf ally.
No one can take them, but they do have, they have.
They make a separation between allies and mercenaries.
There's separate rules for a mercenary contingent to an ally
contingent. Because there's really sorry.
You could, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, in theory you could, but no one can take dwarves.
I, I, I think probably Britannia and an empire are a fair shout
to take them. But it just doesn't say in the,
in the brawls, but, but also with mercenaries, you can, the
opponent can bribe them as well. Part of the rules allows you to
set aside a certain amount of your points and you can use that
to bribe them. And then they might switch sides
or just go home, stop fighting and go home.
So that's quite nice. But but what I'm getting at is
is for that contingent, I might pay up.
They could either be allies in fourth or a mercenary contingent
in in in 3rd. And I quite like that idea of
having a a state troop kind of style small army of dwarfs.
So I'll probably do at salt. I don't know when, Lord knows
when, but at some point I'm going to get round to that and
that'll probably be the white knight models.
So. I'm looking for did you did you
guys ever use allies in your battles or?
Sometimes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And dwarfs were sometimes the
hours we used. Well, we, we didn't have that
many dwarf models when we were doing it.
So what my brother did was Marauder used to advertise their
miniatures a lot more in more dwarf than Citadel did.
OK obviously most articles were were adverts, let's be honest in
White Dwarf, but there were actual glossy pages of dwarfs at
almost exact scale to a miniature.
So what I'd rather do is he stuck cards behind the photos,
cut them out and stuck them onto bases, onto cardboard bases.
And we used those as our dwarfs for a while.
Alright, Very inventive it was, Yeah, but it it worked it we and
we had lovely heavy metal painted dwarfs in our if you're
just looking straight on, you didn't look above or to the
side. We didn't see the 3D dwarfs in
our army. That's a good idea.
So yeah, we used allies in a few times, but mostly, no, we, we,
we didn't do allies that much. It was I, I think again, they're
kind of in the right kind of game.
If there's a narrative to it, it works most of the time.
People tend to use it to get around the failure of the OR the
chaos. Army or something?
Yeah. Or although in to some respects,
I don't mind arterial in the chaos army because I think they
would have it. Certainly I think there there is
a narrative reason why they would have have arterial as a
bit Darf taking it out or any missile troops full stop.
But things like, you know, maybe a gold wizard in a dwarf army,
maybe a gold, I'm saying gold wizard because you could imagine
him being a mercenary. Also another wizard, right?
And I think that fits a narrative.
But you're definitely doing it to get a wizard into a dwarf
army. Yeah.
You know, that's, that's why you're doing it.
So yeah, I don't know. Allies I'm not against, but I
think it the context has to be right.
Yeah. And I think you, you sort of had
to agree in the group sort of to make it proper.
Yeah, yeah, we we very seldom use them, but you could add a
bit of flavour, definitely. And you could try out, you know,
some models from or units from another range.
This one. Absolutely cool.
Good stuff. Yeah.
And then we have the uniquely Empire halflinks.
Yeah, I love them, still do. You say that I think in the
white book Platonian could have halflinks.
Oh, maybe they could, yeah. I think you have.
You got the avenue there at hand, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the yeah, I mean the the
the point as well. Playing out the Tonio and and
the Empire is in 3rd edition, there wasn't a huge amount to
choose between the pair of them. They were pretty much the same
army. Slightly weirdly in the in 3rd
edition. Brutonia could have more canons
than an Empire, I think. I think Brutonia could have four
and an Empire could have three. I think I might have got that
round the wrong way. I might be remembering
incorrectly. But I think that weird dichotomy
that you'd expect empire to have more.
So yeah, that's that's kind of a weird one.
But yes, they could have halflings in the White Book.
And obviously the White Book was the only official Brutonian list
until 5th Yeah. But yeah, I mean, the the the
models that were available were were definitely Empire
halflings. Yeah, because they had Puffin
Slash and. Yeah.
And I mean obviously for Halflinks they their thing was
to have both that you put we were using less hand to hand.
Yeah, they weren't good at it. Cheap cannon for that.
In that sense, yeah. They're your slaves or your
goblins. Yeah, they're obviously.
Leadership, actually. Leadership is OK, but obviously
not only do they have the strength of two, they have a
toughness of two, so that's not great.
Oh yeah, no, they're not brilliant.
They are. They are a speed bump.
Yeah, and weapons give too. Even so, I think they are I had
maybe the weakest choice in the game or it's not links.
Yeah. Yeah, slaves are better.
Slaves are better than halflings, for sure.
OK, not as good leadership, but you know, but what does in
escape an army? But yeah, and they're better
than they're. Yeah, goblins are probably
better than that. Again, they beat goblins on the
leadership, but goblins have a toughness and strength of three.
Yeah, that's huge. So yeah, Halflings are the worst
close combat unit in that sense, but they are cheap.
So there's an argument they're better than other things because
you can get so many more of them.
But they mean around a combat. Around a combat, let's be
honest. And I think apart from adding
the models this, you might as well just give them a bow
because it's not going to cost you a lot and they're going to
be a lot better, so. Yeah, and the vesicular 4
certainly worthwhile. They're they're elite bow Yeah,
yes, there's no minus to save, but shooting at the right
targets and enough of them firing and you can get loads of
them for the price cost they are.
You. Know they they are a very good
missile unit probably if we've already got cross within in the
army. Would there be a toss up?
Do I take halflings or do I take handgunners?
Handgunners are very specific in that they can get rid of arm if
you've got a low armour enemy facing you.
And and Orson goblin is kind of they're they're not, they're not
high armour, but they are. But they are high toughness and
maybe not the best against Orton goblins.
But if you're facing Skaven with only light armour and shield
majority of the army, I think halflings are fantastic for
fighting Skaven that kind of army or another human army.
Like like if you're fighting Britonian something like that
where it's just basic toughness is 3 armour isn't getting huge.
They're worthwhile If you're mainly facing goblins as well,
they're probably really useful against them.
Yeah, and I mean, if they die, it's not a huge thing because
they're sheeps, yeah. Or I did, I suppose, because
because of that higher leadership, I mean, fear is an
issue. Most things are Toughness 3 in
the undead army, Yeah, I guess probably against undead.
Zombie's another one in that category, isn't it?
Zombies are pretty useless. But of course there are.
They're they're more uses. They they cause fear, but
they're dirt cheap. Their equipment's cheap.
But yeah, halflings. Yeah, hard to argue.
The worst close combat unit in the game, but not the worst.
Shooting it. Not the worst, that's all.
Yeah. So yeah, I'm looking forward to
using that. Well, I'm just painting.
I'm just about to paint some up now.
I'm going to, I'm going to use, I just painted some beast men
recently, some Nergal beast men, and I used speed paints on them
kind of for the first time. So I'm paint, speed paint, and
I'm going to do my halflings with speed.
I'm going to experiment using speed paint.
My brother swears by them. I've used them a couple of times
on various. I did some painting with my son
of some squigs. He saw squigs and adored squigs
as you wanted to paint some squigs.
So I've got some speed paints to try and make things a bit easier
for painting them. Didn't really work on those.
I did. I tried to do a xenophil
highlight and the speed paint just melted the white paint off
the model. So he's ended up being black
with speed paint on it and black with speed on it.
Doesn't really show much so it doesn't really do well, but I'm
going to. But I've done a white undercoat
on halflings I I normally just swear by a black undercoat on
almost everything or a coloured primer from from army paint.
I love the coloured primers from army painting for speeding up my
painting, but this time it's done white.
We're experiment with with speed paints on my halflings.
I've done my halflings done this month for part of empire month.
That sounds really bad actually saying it out loud.
The empire month. The Empire month, that sounds a
bit better. Very imperialistic.
No, the Empire. I'm not home to have them as my
by the end of the month, they'll be ready to go and and show off.
And then I've got a unit of Halflings, 50.
I've ended up with a unit of 15 somehow, which.
Which is a weird number for missile troops.
Yeah, I think it's not an even number.
Yeah, I think I have 24 or something, so yeah.
Good number. That's a good number.
Yeah, Yep, 11 and the the final regiments are the ogres.
Yeah, so the big boys. Yeah, but a unit?
Of ten of them painted up, I've got Foundry Miniatures.
The they've got a sideline Foundry Miniatures, McConnell,
what they're called, but it's a fantasy sideline they've got and
they've got what they call great orcs slash ogres in that.
And they're very Tudor in style. Very well, not very true, sorry.
Very Renaissance style. OK.
They have Wooden Crosses on them.
So you have to kind of ignore those, which are kind of those
are really fit into the Warhammer world.
But the models themselves, I love them.
They're they're and they're perfect.
That is, they're puffy sleeves. Some of them, some of them have
got top hats, which is a bit weird.
But yeah, I don't mind that. It's just a weird ogre.
They're they're not the most they just have weird, you know,
fashion choices, but no double handed weapons.
Ogres, yeah, should have enough toughness.
Toughness of five don't really need armour because of the
toughness. So you know, being on with with
double handed weapons, you know, with a strength 4 up to six,
they are meaty. They are beefy.
They do need leaders though around them, not as in stay near
the general. Obviously they can't officially
have champions or heroes or Lords, but again, you know, if
you're doing the whole, you know, friendly gaming group then
there's no reason you shouldn't take them if you check with your
mates. 1st and I think in some later editions August do cause
fear. I think they don't enforce them.
No, they don't know which yeah, I guess is a kind of a loss, but
also you got to think in terms of linear as well.
We're doing, we're reviewing it after the event.
They're reviewing it when we see them in later editions.
So if you're going linear though and ogres in previous editions
that caused fear, it wasn't a consideration for them causing
fear in this edition. If you say I mean it was, it was
only because they later got. It but I guess that that makes
the the comparably low leadership a bit worse in that
sense if they would have had fear because I mean they can be
scared by 5 skeletons so obviously they.
Can. Yeah, absolutely.
Obviously. Is there anything about
outnumbering with fear in fourth?
I can't remember off the top of my head.
You break automatically if you're beat, yeah.
What means there's no if there's yeah, see that's the and also in
3rd there was something about height of the model as well.
So it was fear you caused. If you were man sized, you
didn't cause fear in things that were bigger.
Oh, OK. You only cause fear and there
was some things did but they had to have that specific rule.
Fear plus whatever for, you know, fearing fury models, man
size and fury models like that sort of thing.
So ogres were fine in in 3rd because of that, because smaller
things didn't cause fear. You know, they wouldn't be
scared of a unit of five skeletons, 5 zombies or
whatever, you know, or even worse, a unit of five skeletal
skeleton horses. You know, they wouldn't be
scared of those. But yeah, in fourth there was
that, which is why you got to keep your general quite close to
them really. Yeah, I like them.
I think I like 20 painted up yeah yeah, I I don't think it's
going to be a better practical to use more, but I have it's a
mix yeah. Some I think 3rd edition, some
of the I think technically 3rd edition, but the late 3rd
edition the ones that they re released now for the oxen
goblins. Do you know that?
Those yeah, those were 4th. So those were.
They were fourth, yeah. Yeah, there was certainly 4th
and they were released probably round about the release of the
dwarf book. Yeah, round about the same time
that the wolf riders, those Portician wolf rides were
released on, on the plastic wolves.
They're at least round about the same time as that.
Yeah, and then I had some of the goldfag, the 5th edition.
And yeah. And some modern ones that are
from a Spanish company. Mom, MOM miniatures.
OK, you know. Yeah, I don't know them.
No, you have to. You have to send me pictures.
Right. You try yeah very fluffy sleeves
and stuff. So they're quite empty.
They're huge though. So I mean, compared to
especially the 3rd edition of Ogre that is sort of tiny and
you have this modern 1 is like, yeah, absolutely massive.
So. And there's, there's, there's
those War games, Atlantic ones as well that intrigue me.
I think they're probably fit with the late 5th edition, 6th
edition plastics better, I think.
But there I am tempted to buy a box of them.
They're like £20 for about 8:00 or so, I think.
Yeah. So it's not, it's not bad value.
There's not bad value going on there because they're in the
cost of models these days and they're definitely Renaissance
in style. You know, they're lunch neck
overs. So yeah, I might have a look at
those two increasingly. And obviously, you know, we were
talking about the other day the, you know, oh, I've got 12,000,
you've got 17,000 worth of points.
Ogres are a good way to build that up.
Very expensive, so yeah. 10400 points plus.
Yeah. And there are a lot of choices,
both modern and, you know, vintage models, they are quite,
absolutely different versus Yeah, nice.
I like them. And I think, you know, in the
game they are quite good. They add something to a bit of
staying power and strength. So yeah, it's nice.
All right. Should we?
We're going on two hours now, but maybe, yeah.
We'll, we'll. Maybe we need to we.
We've kind of touched on special characters already, really.
There might be a couple of special mentions when we get
there, but yeah, let's go. War machines then.
Yeah, mortars. I've never had any luck with
them. You know, but they kind of like
a stone throw a bit stronger, aren't they?
My, my big issue with them. I like the model, but it's a bit
pathetic. It's a bit small and pathetic
looking. There is a later one.
Obviously there's a later. One and the 5th finish one,
yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure I like the
model, but it doesn't look as pathetic as the as the tiny
little late 3rd edition one. It's like that, you know, it's
tiny. It's there's not a lot to it.
Like I said before, we were quite literally in how the model
looked. So obviously that model didn't
have wheels. So logic was you couldn't move
that one. So I think that's, I think he
could probably have picked it up and carried it.
He's. He's he's not big.
They could yeah, between the three of them, they could have
probably carried it, I reckon. Yeah, for sure.
It's it's not yeah. I don't own any.
I think my brother's got a couple and potentially might be
able to get some from from easy printing but but no, I don't own
any of them at the moment and. Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not much of them. It's basically a stone thrower.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, they are unique in
the sense that no one else has them.
But as you say, the actual effect of them involved you've
got. Any house force.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Water, yeah. Thank you.
A huge mortar the other. See, that's an impressive
mortar. It's you.
Know it's a big old size but the Empire 1 is just looks a bit
silly and small. Don't get me wrong, it's
probably more realistic and that's what Peris were going
for, yeah, but in the grand scheme of things, it just looks
a bit pathetic. Yeah, it's not really in line
with the rest in that sense. The the 5th edition one, I'm
getting it now. Actually, I have a, I bought it
still waiting for it to arise. So yeah.
And I think that's the, I wouldn't say rare in that sense,
but I don't think. It's rare in that no one
probably was buying it at the time.
Rare in that sense. Yeah, I I agree.
It's and that's really does come down to with a lot of the
models, why things are rare and why they're not.
You know, did you buy them as models?
You. Know because any leftover stock
Games Workshop would have just melted down if they couldn't
sell them. They'd have melted it down and
and turned it into another model.
Yeah, so by late 5th edition, Empire wasn't the hot stuff,
obviously, I think. No, it wasn't.
No, it was very old army and and needed a revamp.
Which is again why probably they were one of the flagships for
for 6th edition coming out and why they got their plastics
early on because nothing really appeared for them for a while.
And yeah, they needed a bit of a boost sales wise.
Yeah, I mean, from early 4th until, you know, late 5th, the
Empire didn't get much attention at all.
Model slice or rubes or anything but.
Obviously in army in in white dwarf they did.
They were the remain stay of white dwarfs still and and
people would have been inspired to buy them to trade an army
then, but possibly not to collect the entire range.
You know that they, they were probably just buying a few and
then they're buying probably the plastics, you know, and mortars.
No, I don't think people would generally buy mortars because
you can get great great cannons and help blasters and they were
a bit better. But I would like to get it sort
of a perfect hit and just land that.
Yeah, I don't. Blame you.
Yeah, yeah, it. Would be nice.
Absolutely. OK, onto cannons, you know?
Must have I guess. My cannon, Yeah, in my book
because I've got our fifth my our 4th edition book my brother
took. I've got a 5th edition book.
That I bought on eBay. I've managed to procure one of
the fourth ish ones. So my book A great Canon is 95
points, not 100. It's not a huge difference but
you know, there is a slight, slight difference there so yeah.
So my great canons are 95 whereas I bet yours are 100.
Yep. I own.
I have two books, but they're both 4th edition.
Yeah. I wonder what the reason was.
I mean, I don't think Canons was be underpowered, but maybe
aligning with others and well, yeah, well, if you put.
Them in line with a dwarf cat that's the main other user of a
cannon yeah Dwarfs, Dwarf cannons were 110 points OK
you've got 3 dwarfs with it not 3 humans, but 110 points and
they were only strength seven yeah and the D4, I think yeah.
Whereas great cannons, less points, more effective, greater
range, stronger, did more wounds.
Yeah, but then. They know with the point.
I suppose you could argue that's one of the.
Benefits of Empire, you know, there are few there other than,
you know, the flexibility. That's that's one thing we
should say. You know, the Empire army is a
very flexible army. You know, you, you can play it
in a number of different styles. Nothing lends just OK, maybe
your opponent lends to you doing a bit of a gun line and sitting
back with them. But but typically, you know, you
could do pretty much whatever you want.
Vastly tactically flexible, but there are few.
Strengths of an empire. I mean, they, they are vanilla,
yeah. Empire really is your baseline
for other books. Yeah.
So great. Having cheaper cannons than
other people. Maybe that's one of the benefits
there. And better cannons than other
people as well. Yeah.
So I mean, it was a bit of a
skill based choice because if you could mess it properly, that
was a huge benefit, obviously. And I mean, you're not sad if
you haven't played in years. So OK, so how does this work?
But you could definitely get good at it.
So that would have been yeah. I mean, yeah.
And even just knowing your board, sort of, you know, if you
play that you're familiar board. Oh yeah, absolutely.
And there was unscrewed. There's people that used to use
their arms and they'd lean over and they'd know the length of
their arms. Yeah, that sort of thing.
Or or those that tried to fire crossbows or something first if
you're like. That take that.
Also takes the fun out of it you.
Know the Spirit. Of the game and I mean they did
make it well you had to fire your you know all your guest
range weapons first which was a fantastic thing to bring in
because it forced people to play in the spirit of things but yeah
and now in the old world apparently you don't you can pre
measure and that's like well So what you do with a cannon
basically is guess a point you could say right say it say
you're firing a unit or a monster yeah well obviously
you're going to find a something like that you can say right 10
inches back from the back of the base of the final model yeah and
then. You have been very unlucky.
Not to hit in that case, yeah, because.
Typically. An average role, you're going to
get 10, you know, on the two dice.
As long as you're not rolling misfires, obviously, then you'll
get 10, No 6 on 1/4 on the other.
That would be your average because obviously five and five
are the two averages. Yeah.
So you OK, misfire skews that a little bit, but it's roughly 10
inches is the average. So you can pretty much guarantee
a hit almost. You have to be very unlikely to
get a hit. Which is.
Which is even more precise if you're not, if you're not as
precise as third edition or I said, you don't even need to you
know, guess or measure or anything like that.
You just shoot it along trajectory.
But it, you know, 4th. And 4th through to 8th, I guess,
Yeah, cannons were yes, you could be really good, especially
if you're using the army week in week out, or you know, it was
your regular army, you could get really good with them.
But yeah, there was still an element of guessing and you had
to have a bit of luck on your side.
But I I think in 8th edition. They had that rule.
You could. Did they?
Oh, I can't remember. OK.
All right. I don't.
I just think that's taking it too far of it being too easy.
Yeah. No, I I like the guest parts.
You know, it's a bit fun. Yeah.
Flavoursome. Yep.
Right. And then the behemoth, the steam
tank. The steam tank, the.
Points to move and stuff like that yeah yeah yeah and it.
I think some people have, you know, noted that it does break
if you rules it's a bit unwieldy.
Yeah. Yeah, you can.
Just place it in. Front of the unit and it's going
to stay there forever and and you can have up to 8 of.
Them as well. So yeah, yeah, some people.
May say oh. Only 8, but no 8's quite a lot.
If you're playing a 3000 point game, 8 is a lot.
Yeah, and obviously you. Can't have it 25. .25% say 750
points, You're going to get three at most.
Yeah. Which anyone?
That's probably anyone that's got more than one in a game is
probably not really things. If if.
You start playing about. 3000. Points that's probably going a
bit far it's like the it's like the person that includes like 5
joints in their armies they're all some goblins you know yeah
probably pushing it a little bit with gamesmanship there if
you're including that many one I think that's fine I think it's
fine actually reach the unit to break those rules normally yeah
and if. There is a random element they
can't break down on their own, so exactly.
You don't even need your opponent to destroy it, you can
destroy yourself quite easily. Honestly, I think that's quite
often. The case because it is very
difficult to destroy, it has Windows 10 and most spells
doesn't work at all exactly against it.
So yeah, it's it is a beast, but.
Also, you can kind of stay away from it.
It's not fast by any stretch of the imagination as as a as a
model, yes, OK, it's got the cannon that can misfire quite
regularly. Generally speaking, you can stay
away from it. So I don't I don't think it's
that breaking. Yeah, it's for what it is.
It does break quite a few at all of the game.
Yes, relatively cheap for what you get for your points, but it
is a gamble. If you include it as an Empire
general, you are. Gambling on that steam tank
doing. I think it became even better in
later editions, but in this edition it is pretty ropey and
one of the reasons it probably breaks some of the rules is that
I think again, bit like some of the other things in the Empire
army, it pretty much uses 3rd edition rules rather than
fourth. There's no difference between
the two editions, but it is based on, you know, the end of
3rd edition when they were doing the you know, the the article in
the Warhammer in in Warhammer army's empire for the steam tank
is literally just taken from White Dwarf and plopped into you
know, and that was a third edition White Dwarf yes with.
4th in mind. But it's a third edition, right
Dwarf, so you know the the but you know a people need to be
able unless you're using cardboard pieces, you need to
own a steam tank, which not everyone does Yeah, OK, they.
Might be using a modern. Model and and actually I think
if you're using the modern model, it probably breaks even
more rules because it's a lot bigger model yeah whereas the
original steam tank ain't OK yes it's a lot bigger than a castle,
but it's not it's not the size of the plastic one that came
later it's quite a headache but it's.
Yeah. Oh yeah, it's another one.
You Chuck it. At some when you're breaking
their head, but but you know, you've got problems.
You Chuck it at some, but you know, it's it's base size isn't
it's not 5 inventory models wide.
I don't think it's probably like 3-4 at most, you know, so, so
it's not in its original form, it's probably not as deadly as
it potentially could be. Yeah, but it's great fun.
Running over the wall. Yeah, absolutely.
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Get to it. Yeah, That's the only thing to
do with it. It's something, something
cannon. Who needs that?
Just run over. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I think yeah, it's it's not bad in any means in a way, but
not game breaking either. Right.
Then we have the the war wagon or wagons.
You can have any any number though, so you're not limited
TO8I my, probably my. Opinion of War Wagons have
changed. I I originally thought they were
silly. I think in when I when I was
playing the game Risha, I thought they were a bit silly.
But now I think they're just kind of a characterful model.
Yeah, and that's reason. Enough to include it.
Yeah, OK, It's a pain in the arse to work it all out.
All the different rules. It's got fit like a.
Steam Tank in that sense, although.
Wall wagon's probably even more complicated and not not for
movement. Obviously you've got to do steam
points for a steam tank, but all the different weapons, it's just
like, oh God. And and where do you measure
ranges from on the? On on.
On the wall wagon, you know Steam Tank's easy because that's
where it's gun is. Yeah, but.
Ranges from a. War wagon, you know.
Oh, do you measure from the model?
Then you're going over part of the model is, and strictly
speaking, something like the blunderbuss.
If you've got him at the front and he's shooting straight
ahead, does he not kill the horses?
Yeah, they should. You know, obviously you wouldn't
do. That you, you just ignore the
horses and and shoot over them. But you know, there is.
And also we think that's a blunderbuss.
And then the dwarfs, they've got different rules, I think the two
different blunderbusses. Yeah, Yeah, that's a different
the Council blunderbuss and the Empire one, Yeah.
And yeah, I actually had great results last time I tested it.
It was like magic. I was able to snap next with the
Yeah, yeah, I never succeeded in that before, but.
And I broke an entire unit of Blackhawks with a blanderbox.
Wow. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, Black.
I think Blackhawks are my current.
Favorite unit I used them Boil and yeah, they just minced
whatever they touched. They were brilliant.
I loved them. But yeah, no, you've, you've
destroyed some Blackhawks with that.
That's that's a good achievement, Yeah.
And I think they. Killed 6 in one shot, Wolf ran
off. Wow, that's great.
Yeah, it's just heavy charity isn't it?
So yeah, no, I, I said I didn't used to like it.
My opinions changed and now if I've got the points I'd probably
include a war wagon probably possibly even over a steam tank,
just because whilst the weapons are a headache moving it is less
of a headache. So, so yeah, probably go with
with a war wagon over a steam tank in that sense.
Also, people probably will. Whinge as much.
But unfortunately if you. Don't have one, it's going to
set you back properly to get one.
Oh yes, they are very expensive. Now on, on, on Fleece Bay, yeah,
it's, yeah, difficult to get hold of.
Bit like it seems like I said, you've got your own one to
include it. So, you know, are they, are they
that excessive in that sense? Probably not, yeah.
And I think the if you compare to this Dean tank, the main
drawback is that, you know, even a strength three attack is in
danger of putting it into, you know, low moving a weight of
100. And 50 points, yeah, yeah.
But then. I hope.
You've still got the crew firing, you know, still a still
a base of operations for them. So yeah, no, I, I, I overall I I
quite like the wall wagon. Haven't used it that often.
I've seen it by great cannons and hell blasters instead of
them in my in my allocation. But yeah, I think every now and
then, maybe just as a change include all wagon.
Yeah, no, I like it. It's cool.
Pretty model, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Very characterful, very characterful indeed.
And then of course, help monsters possibly.
One of the most dangerous guns. In the game most hated loss
excuse. Me.
Yeah, they are. Yeah.
They are just going to end an yeah.
So yeah, I I am historically an undead unscaven player quite a
lot help lost and will just yeah, yeah, it means.
Yeah, it's it's really a no brainer in in in that sense.
I mean, they don't. You're just hit and then, yeah,
things are going to stop. Nothing.
And then. Goodbye unit pretty much there,
you know, unless you're very high toughness is pretty much,
you know, short and there's always.
You know, should you shoot over half range or should you wait?
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I.
I would normally hold on to it and and fire it for the first
couple of turns and then unleash it in one go.
Probably would be my my preference.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, obviously.
Obviously, if it's about to be charged, then yeah, just
discharge everything. Just just go for it.
Well, that's a bit of a waste if that's on a unit of five like
cavalry. But generally speaking, though,
help losses are a no brainer to include.
They they decimate yeah, there's not a lot you can say about them
really. They they just.
Yeah, I mean they, they can really.
Yeah. And they they are.
Going to block one part of the battlefield, Yeah, people won't
go near from them if you know what it is, but that can work
against you. Sometimes my I was playing a
game against my Allen and the plot, the plot one right in the
middle of his deployment zone. I was playing escape and I just
simply went into, I split my arm into two halves and stayed away
from it, went down the flanks and also then split his infantry
because they went off and Knights, they went off to either
side. And whilst it's really not
necessarily a advisable tactic, this gave him to split your army
up that much. But there's plenty of it.
And then really there's a lot in an empire army as well.
But if you're spending a lot of lot of points on cavalry and
Knights and you split the army that way, then there's not a lot
left to to go for the other flank.
So yeah, that that was quite an effective tactic.
But but so anyway, where do we get to you?
Yeah, body guns. Yeah, they yeah, just a no
brainer include them. They'll destroy everything.
Well, they shoot at. Are you are you on mute at the
moment? I can't hear you.
Oh, sorry. There we go.
That's. OK.
Brilliant, I'm back. There we go.
No worries. I hope it's.
Sort it out with your son. Yeah, they're all.
Right now, they're on the train now.
So, yeah, good. Sort of.
But she, yeah, that's why she kept ringing, because she was
kind of panicking and yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm a little bit in the doghouse now for not answering, but there
we go. That's my problem to worry
about. Yeah.
OK. Yeah.
Excellent. You said hopefully Hot Pot's
lost war machine. I have.
I've been on the receiving end, I said.
Just boil just now and they actually killed some storm
burning 3rd edition though not not 4th but pretty much the same
rules. But I do have one to get back
and that's going to be part of my halfling painting for this
month. So I'll be able to comment then
on on how it's once I've tried it because I will not use the
model unless it's painted any more.
I used to. But not now.
Yeah, and they have an excellent.
Little mini story in the the army They do, yes.
Very nice. Yeah, yeah.
Melting. Oh, that's the.
Flavour. It's fantastic.
A bit annoying. There are just zero to 1.
You can only have what? I suppose that stops you just
filling out your machine allocation with halfling hot
pots, I guess. Yeah, but zero to 1 only.
Does that mean there's only so if you want around or who knows?
Yeah, they I'd never hit anything with them, but I'm
going to keep trying and I suppose unless you're under the.
Dot, it's only strength three. Yeah, it's not so.
Yeah, yeah. But but.
Characterful and fun. It is, yes.
Yeah, and I mean, it would be quite embarrassing for the
opponent, you know, killing some valuable Knights or something
within. Yeah, I mean, it's only.
One wound. So you're not.
You're probably not going to kill a character unless you've
already knocked some, some wounds off a character.
But yeah, I'm covered in soup. Or, you know, whatever it is
that's in the that's in the Stew.
But it's firing. Yeah.
Very embarrassing. But the.
The It's just going to happen. Yeah, it's still toughness 7 as
a. As a war machine, that's pretty
surprising. I don't think it'll have a
lesser toughness, but of course it's not.
Going to be difficult to kill the halflings, so it's still
quite squishy. I guess this is true, yeah.
It's useless if once they're dead.
Yeah, they're not really. Yeah.
I mean, you can't really hide behind them.
In, in, in force. So, yeah, what?
I'm looking forward to giving a go.
Yeah. All right.
So should we just go over the monsters really quickly?
I guess yeah, the options are. There, but because of the way
the models are, I think the only ones I'd really consider for for
them really. Probably a dragon, but that'd be
a big gain. Really big gain.
Oh, that Griffin, Hippogriff and Pegasus probably would be the
only ones that I would, from an aesthetic point of view, I would
choose. I mean, Griffins and Hippogriffs
and Pegasus, they're all creatures of chaos, so you know.
When? You look at it, they're all
mutated things of chaos. So all of them have valid, you
know, home there. You could argue pretty much, but
those are the three that I'd really look at.
Yeah, it'd be a bit weird to. Include a vibe against an orphan
compliance army, for example, you could by mirror cockatrice
just as. A like for an empire army so you
could make an odd for cockatrice I guess.
I think manticore is 1. Of the one of the state flags I
think is a manticore but. It's a bad.
E-mail so the. Completionist in me says that I
should at some point get all the monsters, but not very easy to
find around here, at least if you want the European ones.
Swarms Swarms Black Tree design I.
Mean getting a delivery from them is hard, but but they do do
a lot of swarms. I've got some scorpion swarms to
paint up for. I'm going to do them for my
chaos and do them in kind of pastels.
So they're kind of slanishy things because you know,
scorpion is one of the animals of slanish.
You know, a lot of things have got scorpion claws and tails.
So yeah, I I thought some pastel kind of painted scorpions would
look quite called as a swarm for chaos.
Well, the well, the chaos needs swarms at 100 points for base.
It's quite, I think 100 points is a lot for a swarm, awful lot.
You know, the armies that can have reduced value, ones like
the scape and getting a A50 point, they become a lot more
effective and a lot more useful. If 50 points, 100 points, it's a
lot, yeah. I don't remember seeing.
Anyone using swarms? You know, apart from escaping
armies really. Although bats.
Bats, yeah, from dead, but again, 100 points is a lot of
points to invest, you know, and one base isn't going to do a lot
so really. Three.
Yeah, you need about. Three at most really.
So you're looking at 300 points as opposed to scaling.
Rats was 150. You know, that's that's where
the difference comes in. So whether I use my chaos, I
mean, I don't know. But then again, depends on what
kind of game I'm playing. If I'm just playing, you know,
get all the models on the board sort of game, then yeah, the the
swarm of 3/4 bases is is viable in that sense.
So if you did use monsters back then, did use them as mounts or
as yes on their own mounts, typically as mounts.
Not really for the Empire that much.
Again, that was more cardboard based time.
We didn't have the Emperor and we didn't have the dude on the
Pegasus. So no, we didn't really use them
for Empire. I know my mate Alan recently has
started using a Griffin unmount without a rider in his armies,
and the Griffin actually on its own is pretty good.
It's got a. Reasonable.
Yeah, it's got high weapon skill, you know, high strength.
What's the OK, It's got an extra attack over Hippogriff.
That's actually for a five points difference.
Britain's that OK? OK, Hippogriff.
Is a bit quicker. It's got movement of eight as
opposed to 65. Who cares exactly?
It's like like great eagles. Got movement of two, Who cares,
they fly. Yeah, OK.
If they're grounded. There's an issue, but generally,
you know, five points, yeah. Why?
Why would? You go over Hippogriff over of
Griffin for five points difference.
OK, because you've got the model, obviously, but you know,
if you've got the model, but overall, yeah, no, Griffin's
much better value for points. It's it's pretty.
Much the same. It's got higher initiative, one
more attack. That they're two good reasons to
go through. Griffin overhead Griffin for the
five points difference and yeah, I might consider that wouldn't
really go giant spiders. They just they don't they don't
smack of empire. No, they don't.
They're just talking about it. I said magic would really
covered that, you know. OK, it's 200 points more.
What's it got? It's got extra point of weapon
skill. It's stronger, it's got higher
toughness. Same number of wounds.
Lower initiative. A lot lower initiative.
And it's got the same. Number of taxes as Griffin, not
sure. Manticore, yeah, again, Griffin
I think is probably the out of those 3 animals which the stats
are pretty similar. I think Griffin's probably a
better bet out of those three anyway.
Plus I think the aesthetics that's empire better than than a
manticore. Yeah, that's true.
And why words are forks. Yeah, clearly I did intend to
get one from the the maid to order, but I never did.
It was my order was cancelled sadly for whatever reason.
One of those, yeah. So yeah, a lot of options, but
you know, you probably wouldn't use some all definitely.
Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong you.
Know if my opponent did it, I'm not going to.
I'm not going to kick up anything.
That's fine. I personally wouldn't choose
them, no. Right.
So yeah, we did talk about some of the special characters, maybe
a quick mentioning of some of the others, the obviously the
Emperor. Yeah, yeah, pretty.
Good 10 that's good for general but I don't know the items.
OK, I know the seal was very good.
I think the one is 1 to hit and a four plus hit 4 plus spell or
automatic dispel. Yeah, yeah.
Four plus dispell, I think that's pretty good.
Yeah, and you can still. Give him some magic armour if
you would like. Yeah.
So exactly. I think that's pretty good.
And then the hammer of Sigma, though, is phenomenal in that
you'd have to roll to wound and there's no armour safe, because
the problem with all those weapons that don't that negate
rolling to wound is you've still got to somehow get through the
armour. Yeah.
I think the hammer of Sigma just Nope.
None of that. I think the.
Wound no armour safe. The problem maybe if you meet
some other beefed up characters is that you you're not going to
cause a lot of wounds. You I mean if you meet something
with a high weapon skill, you on average going to cause 2 wounds
and that's not going to be enough to kill a big thing.
That's true, That's true, But hopefully the silver.
Seal keeps you alive by giving that -1 to because that that
kind of evens the odds with like a chaos.
You charge you to chaos Lord or they charge you whatever the -1
to hit suddenly means they're not doing a three plus.
They're only on A4 plus, same as what you're probably going to be
hitting on. So that kind of evens the odds a
bit yes, give them some magic karma to try and you know keep
them alive from those attacks. If they've got this is again as
stained earlier. You know, I've started to really
take note of multi wound weapons, magic weapons, and
that's where that comes in, isn't it?
The the the Hammerstein doesn't do it, but it wasn't that
prevalent in in I don't think at the timing force people really
took notice of multi wounded weapons.
You know, they, they were considered where you got to get
the wound in in the first place. Yeah.
In most challenges you. Don't actually often kill the
other opponent outright. You tend to maybe do 1 wound and
it's an or of attrition in actual fact.
So multi wound weapons, suddenly it's like I've only got to do 1
wound and I might kill you. So suddenly they're really quite
effective. So yeah, it could do with that
on the hammer Sigma. You know, I think in six they
did add that in. I think it became multi wound.
Yeah. Yeah, it did.
Oh yeah. Oh, no.
Before just. Before we move on, my brother
did port for the game we did at Boyle this year.
He did port the Emperor O in 3rd.
He didn't port the 4th edition one back though.
What he ported was the Warhammer role play version of him and he
just he's super powerful. If you do that, his hammer is
just basically is if you're chaos, his hammer will kill you.
So that's simple. And he has some sort of
psychological effect on them and all sorts.
There's all sorts of things and basically he is like a superhero
if you if you use that. Version.
Here he is very much he is. He is a leader of men, but he is
a man. Yeah, yeah.
That's why it's only the leadership that does anything
and he doesn't have any special roots either.
So it's I mean you could make generic general of the same
quality much Yeah. And you can give them.
Hammer of Sigma and Silver Seal, they're not unique to to the
Emperor. So I'm just saying you can yes,
but he will be exactly the same except the leadership.
Except the leadership could be good, but you know.
OK, we talked about Magnus, and then there's Swartz Helm.
And I mean, he's a good Army standard bearer.
Except he. Can't have a magic banner.
No, he can't because he's got his sword.
That's true, That's true. But to be honest with you, these
days for me, I tend to just take if I take an army standard
bearer, except with Scaven. If I take an army standard
bearer then it's really only for the re rolling of the brake
chest I'm worried about. Yeah I I usually.
Don't use the Magic Banner, but I know for a lot of people
that's a big thing and it's a little bit weird that you can't
have a Magic Banner on your. Yeah, true.
But he. Is.
He is a very good character for the points though.
Yeah. And yeah, he's. 3 rules, yeah,
that's huge, obviously, because three attacks.
And his sword, you know, he's re rolling tits and no armour safe.
So he's he's pretty effective fighter.
So, OK, not out on his own, No, you never charge him in on his
own. But in a unit of Knights, he's a
really effective additional character in that front ring.
He looks really powerful. Yeah.
He does, yeah. He's a.
Lovely model. He is a lovely model.
And then grant theorganist, you know, Yeah.
Combination of point random. Wizards, Yeah.
So, and I mean, he has a bunch of special rules and that's one
of the instances where there is a significant difference between
the 4th and 5th edition of the book.
Oh yes, there's the. Apology effect isn't there?
Yeah. So it's you have.
An unbreakable Everyone is unbreakable within 6 inches, so
that's good. Obviously if you have two units
besides and to get a 4th edition copy.
I'm gonna have to just for my, for my collection anyway, We
have to get a full edition copy for sure.
So yeah, I'll fix that. Yeah.
No, overall, he's a pretty solid choice.
He's a pretty solid choice, and he's not a.
Bad cost. So he has his own P 3 + 1 cards,
which is which is pretty nice in like small games and so on.
And then he can use if you want to like high magic.
That's yeah, kinda cool. That's very cool.
OK, He only gets. Two spells, yeah, but does he
get to select them or does he need to deal them randomly
still? I think like, yeah.
Really. One else I think yeah dealt 2
spells in the same way it's 11/2 with so yeah.
OK, so they are dead. It's the ability to potentially
get that banishment spell against undead and chaos.
Isn't it from from the high match?
But it's a low chance. That's probably, you know, 2 two
out of 10, but you can, you can. Switch those two out so you have
those you can. So you get double with the Yeah.
But it's still pretty low chance of getting manageable.
But there are a couple of other good ones as.
Well, so Oh yeah, no, you're probably again.
Too good high magic. Deck is fantastic.
I've got a lot of love for the high Magic deck, so it's always
a good shout maybe to go for high Magic for him for sure.
And I mean. In a, in a competitive
environment, I guess he doesn't have any ward States and I don't
think he can get one. He can he can heal, can't he?
I. Think he can heal?
He doesn't get 3 wounds in in one round of combat shooting.
He's fine. We're back to those multi wound
weapons again. Yeah, generally in most combats
are said he should survive unless you've got a multi wing
weapon, he should survive and then he can heal.
So that's nice. Yeah, he's a pretty cool
character and the, you know, that's a lot of things pretty
good. So that's fine enough.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And then we have the. Supreme Patriarch, no special
rules at all, and I think he and the staff is unique to him.
Either, I don't think it's just him, I think anyone can take the
staff. I believe, I can't remember if
something maybe it's unique to him.
I can't remember. Yeah, but it's.
A bit cheeky to give it to someone else.
It is that there you could be. Symbolising a time when he
wasn't the Super Room patriarch, you know.
If that's part of the fluff. Of the battle you're playing,
then there's no idea for doing it.
But yeah, I wouldn't generally use it.
No. Anything that is the although he
doesn't say the on his on the entry, it does say further down
it says the stopper. Generally the if something says
the I think it should be used very sparingly anyway.
The means it's one and I think. I mean in earlier items it was
maybe more of an oversight. I don't think they actually
intended for goblin champions to run around with sort of
techlifts or something. But no, I don't think they did
either. I think that was should have
been, yes, a high or funny. Yeah, we something I didn't
realize until until getting back into force is the Staff of
Lightning is Hawks and Goblins only in fourth.
In fifth, anyone can take it. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, No one is they think, oh, Staff of Lighting's very not.
No, the staff of Lightning is just Hawks and goblins.
They did put that on the card, even though it's one of those
original box set cards. Yeah, yeah.
And. Apart from that, he has actually
one more lead ship and one more weapon skill for a weapon skill
for a wizard. Yeah.
I mean, they're not total pushovers overseen.
No, they're not. No, no, no.
He's got, you know, he's got toughness for so that means he's
a little survival, but obviously no armour except for the bodied
horse and it's just. Actually for plus one leadership
and plus one weapons he has cost 3 points more than a normal
Lord. So I think that's a.
Fair reason to include him. Obviously not in every single
battle like they did in White Dwarf.
He was in every single battle for a while and I think that's
also different. I think in 5th edition he's,
well, it's the other way around. He's Bright wizard 6th edition 6
is. A different person, yeah, the
supreme patriarch is a different about the guilt and I think.
Yeah, I don't think he's identified as a bright wizard in
5th edition. It's battle with it.
So 5th edition, yeah. Yeah, that's true.
I mean, you could still, they did say in the book you could
still use 4th edition cards if you had them.
But yeah, I'm not I'm not a fan of that whole no no deck thing.
I've. Horribly boring.
Well, just the name. Net magic missile, yeah, it's
just like thank you. Well, I mean, that is the
spelling, the bright deck, but it has more favour to it in in
bright deck. But it's just something yeah,
no, let's not talk about fit. I'll, I'll I've got too many,
too many hang ups with it. The stopper bonus is quite nice,
though. Absolutely going to, you know,
having total power, it can run out.
But yeah, right. Then we have the Rex Marshall.
He's also not very special. He doesn't have any special
rules, but he has West Coast scale of seven.
Yeah, open scale we. Can go pass par with an L4 or a
dwarf, but yeah, he's again he he he's very vanilla, yeah, but
he. Looks excellent in the unit of
Ryke Scott. Yeah, he's a nice model, I
agree. Nice model, but.
Yeah, pretty. Dull.
He's not he's not exciting. No, right there we have a bunch
of. Yeah, but the the.
But the elect accounts, however, the fact that they and I, I
never cottoned on to this until later until again, once I've got
back into it. Any elect accounts can be your
general. Any of the any of the characters
in the Empire book can be your general.
So any of the special characters you can have the Supreme
patriarch being your general. Yeah, but the elect counts are a
good because they they're that, well, they're actually the same
got they're round about the same.
They're 10 points cheaper, aren't they?
But they've got good leadership, they're slightly cheaper, and
they are full of character, those electric counts and actual
fact, I've kind of got an agreement with my brother that I
can use the because the electric count stats are standard across
all three. All four of them.
Yeah. So we've kind of got an
agreement. I can just use these electric
count stats and give them A and, and have the electric count of
Nordland leading my Nordland. I mean, it just basically uses
exactly the same things because the heavy armours included in
it, the the bodied wars is included in that cost.
So 90 points plus 30 points and he gets heavy armour shield
bodied wars. OK, yes, three of them don't
have Shields, but I've kind of based mine upon Boris
Todbringer, who does have a shield and I give him that amber
amulet sometimes, which is exactly the same as the Taliban
of Ulrich. Yeah.
In in effect. So is in effect is in effect
just the rules for Boris Todbringer.
So yeah, I, I love them. I, I think they're great, though
I didn't in the day. I didn't back in the day, I
thought the elect caps were a bit poo.
But in actual fact, no, I think for the points for the
leadership, which is what you, that's the main thing you want
from your general with the empire, you need leadership.
So I think overall, you know, still got OK, only three
attacks, not 4 only weapons, skill 5, you know, but they do
have 3 wounds. They've got toughness of four.
I think they're pretty good for you.
I think they're nice and you know, they all have.
Two of them have special rules, but the other ones have, you
know, slightly unique items, more or less.
So yeah, I think they're nice models.
And Marius, the Mad Lord, he actually costs a bit more.
He costs 110 points, but you know, he has the pleasure of
having Oh, yes, yes. The additional attack, yes.
Yeah, but is he the same? That obviously got the extra tap
from the additional hand weapon, but he's the same stats, isn't
he? I think Yep, he is.
In my 5th edition book anyway. Yeah, yeah.
Oh, and he's frenzied as well. Yeah.
OK, so he's the extra hang weapon and he's frenzied.
Yeah, so he got 7 attacks, but yeah.
So he's pretty. Pretty tasty in that sense.
Yeah. So yeah, no, I'll give him a go
in fourth at some point. I do have the model painted up.
I painted him up for my birthday game for one of the other Empire
generals to use as his leader. So yeah, no, I, I, I will give
him a go at some point. I I do want to at some point
have a little Avalan force, but that's yet another Empire army
to play. Might pass for now.
Yeah. And then and then, yes, I
suppose. Exactly what I was about to say.
Ice cream before, before arcane magic came out.
The only way you can get an ice wizard as well.
She's pretty cool actually. She's got a high leadership.
OK, Webb Schiller isn't that great.
Toughness isn't great. Only three wounds, but she does
have a an alternative frost blade.
It's not the same the rules I think.
Potentially. Yeah, but it's the same cost.
As 100 points, but she. She's not bad as a character,
you know, in a unit with a decent hero, I think she's
probably the most effective. And it's just those ice.
I think the ice spells are really good deck.
It's really good. But I, I think the, I mean,
yeah, fear. For us, it's not a bad weapon,
but you know, she's not the best person to, I mean, it's a little
bit of a waste to give to a wizard even though they're not
totally pursuers. But yeah.
But yeah, she's, you know, ice model and a bit unique.
And as you said, the only one that could use ice magic in the
5th. Or was it?
Yeah, we could yeah, Archaemedic.
So it was 340 actually to them, but it was, you know, late 24.
I mean it's but also. You've got very much, you've got
leadship 10. So if you're leading a unit of
Knights, you know, kids like Wing Lancers, giving them that
leadship of 10, that's something making Wing Lancers even better.
Yeah. Yeah.
So yeah, why not? I don't think.
I'd be used to. I do have a thing to, but I
guess unless you're using the Emperor strictly speaking.
What's his what's Kurt's leadership?
Hang on. There is an argument saying she
has to be your she should be your general.
If you're not using the empire with the leadership 10 Yeah,
she's the best leadership in the in.
The whole army except for for Karl.
Franz, who has it equal. There's an argument she should
be that's. Something I've not considered.
Before I might, because I might try that one an it might be an
army of wing Lancers. It should be a couple of these
two. Well, you could.
You could. Convert up some or use Cossacks.
Or something like that to get some some of the other troop
types, I guess. OK, yeah, no, I won't consider
that in future. Give that a go just to be
characterful. Yeah, it's level.
Three. Yeah, not 4.
Yeah, there's a couple of things.
One should probably give a go. Yeah.
Awesome. Cool.
That's. That's the Army book really.
Obviously the difference between 4th and 5th ones.
There was a there was a catalogue pages in fourth and
you've got army list builds in 5th and I prefer the 4th ones
what I understand. Maybe for people that are
coming. Back to the hobby from you know
later editions and or first time touching the hobby.
Then those army lists are useful to give you the idea of this is
what you're supposed to do an actual example as opposed to
just telling people what to do in in the preface.
Yeah. And I think it look like we said
it that. Isn't very useful or helpful for
anyone who reads it on how you're supposed to do things.
Anomalist is probably a good at it, but I like the catalogue
entries, obviously, you know, Yeah, so that's a nice.
Historical viewing of of the miniatures that you know, not
everything got photographed for those lovely colour photos in
army books. So having them, you know, the
the the catalogue pages, a nice way of still recording what
models were around at the time, I think.
Yeah, right. So we put these three hours
here. Yeah, I think that's probably
time to draw it towards. A close, I guess if there's
anything else that you think you want to cover or you want to
discuss, maybe just do another little, little shorter session
further on. But I think that's probably a
quite a lot of material for for Josh to use for his Crown of
Command podcast. Is there anything he wants as
well? Josh, when you're listening to
this, eventually, if there's anything you'd like us to maybe
go over and and cover, yeah, let us know.
We can always jump on. Maybe Josh can join us for that
as well. That final part, if one aspect
we didn't, yeah, I think 1. Aspect we didn't talk too much
about, but you may touch it a bit is, you know, if you want to
get into it today, how do you go about to make an army model wise
and so on. We talked about what models are
out there. And tactics I guess is the other
one really, maybe we could discuss.
I'm probably not the best necessary for tactics with an
empire and I don't really use it that much.
I haven't used it more recently but and and when I was younger I
probably wasn't really using tactics like 1110 or 11 exactly.
So, but I'm happy to, you know, discuss.
Them and and you know and also theoretical tactics like like
we've done a little bit of you know, things to maybe try out in
a battle at some point. Happy to do that but yeah
probably I should leave so I've got to go pick my partner up
soon from the from, not from the but it doesn't ask me to come
from I've got to be right from the train station at some point
probably where I'm going to end up yeah but no you've got up
from the train station so yeah probably right to call to draw a
veil over it for today we could probably talk for hours and
hours and hours and hours and hours and keep we've got shared
interest and we're. Nerds.
So, you know, we could. Do it for hours.
I mean, that's the thing to do when you get.
To Boyle, that's the evening when we go.
Down the pub and we talk about those sort of things.
They go on for hours of those conversations.
So you can look forward to that when you make it over.
Yeah, for sure. Thanks a lot.
And. And you as well, thank you very
much, very enjoyable. Few hours for a Saturday
morning? Fantastic.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Have a good day. And you too.
I'll see you later. Catch you soon.
See you then. Bye.