All right, so tonight Kendall has joined me from the UK,
Kendall, how you going mate. All right, nice to meet everyone
and hi, Josh, how's it going? Good faith.
Yeah, we sort of got in contact through email, you reached out
to me and Hank Hill from the hero hammer fanzine and, you
know, you know, a lot of our online presence and you have
your own sort of online presence, which I have just
become aware of just quite exciting.
So, may tell us all about how you got everything started
about, And you know, about your, your gig what?
You guys do. Sure.
So I am part of the online community chaos talks online,
and as you can, imagine those of you familiar with cows horses, a
background, the concept everything.
You'll know that it's a range that has its roots.
Its modern Roots at least in fourth edition and in the kind
of pick era of the mid to early late 90s that here.
I Hammer as a z Dean and Crown of command as a podcast
represent. And so I mentioned to the guys
on our Discord chat. You know, if you seen this and
it turns out tons of the people who are in our community which
is still going. After all these years a big big
fans of that. Some people call it middle.
Hammer era. I'm not Josh sure what your
perspective on how to name everything is but whatever we
want to call it chaos. Dwarfs online is a board it's a
Discord channel. Is a pod First, it's a
multimedia adventure for everybody who loves those goofy
to office in their big hats and it's been through many
iterations over the years. So I'm a very recent convert to
it. I joined it in about the last 12
months. We've come a long way in those
12 months. We've got it growing again,
expand it and everything but we've got a forum that goes all
the way back to the mid 2000's and fans, who go back all the
way to Third Edition and the dark days of the mini chaos
Warrior version of the chaos tour.
Of concept. So we wanted to get together,
have a conversation with you. Look at the Army book.
Look at some of the cool things in the range.
Talk about middle Hammer, old Hammer, how it all relates and
find out, you know what the the vibe is with all the other
armies that are still trucking in their 4th Edition version.
After all this year's Wonderful night.
Okay, that's great. Because, yeah, your community is
something that's new to me as well because I was never aware
that. I've all the armies that I've
got. I could ever think of that cows
dogs would have its own, you know, multimedia Community.
It's just so, you know, incredible to me, and I think we
talked about it to that, you know, cast warms.
I don't know. It just, they just did not
appeal to me at all during the during the days.
And I think I like, I've never faced a cast wolf Army of never
seen on the Table. Yeah, it's now become.
I don't know, some kind of retro popular Army for people to
collect and even even in hindsight, now, looking back,
they do have a lot of appeal. There's something about that
that are made as a lot of character that has a lot of, I
don't know Charisma to it now. Yeah, I think I think the best
way that Jack and I and the other lesson podcasts, always
talk about this is the reason that the cast-off community is
so resilient. Need some cases appealing is
because it's an army. That's always been kind of last
place and and ironically that's something that's carried on for
a very long time. But if you focus on this core
big hat 90s range. What you're talking about is a
range that was brought out, you know, through a little bit of
mismanagement within GW and we've interviewed Rick Priestley
and he's told us all the history of it, you know, that the hats
weren't big enough, nobody had reviewed the Miniatures, you can
read all about that in our latest.
Issue of are seen in our interview with him.
But fundamentally was an Army, that sold poorly right?
Didn't catch fire with a lot of people.
And from that perspective, never merited its own full Warhammer
armies. But so it got a white dwarf
presents or Hammurabi's chaos dwarfs.
Instead of a proper Warhammer armies, book came free with the
magazine and from that point onwards the tone was set, right?
This was a minority concerned. This was a strange thing that
wasn't on the same level as everything.
And then never registered commercially on that level
either and as a result concept never Revisited or not Revisited
for a very, very long time until Forge World, we'll talk about
that later. But as a result, you know the
Miniatures themselves are relatively rare, right?
I don't know the details but I would say it was one big
production. Run in the mid-90s.
I've been through all the old stuff, Legends catalogs and you
can watch the decline from the launch of the range in 93
through to about 95. At which point almost, none of
the Miniatures are still being sold a couple of things that are
left over and I don't think there was any particular second
wind that got into it as a commercial Venture 4gw and that
adds a certain degree of cash a right?
Because as a result, because I'm a millennial, right?
I'm 32 years old, I was six years old, four years old.
Actually, for me, when Cal stores are released in 93, I was
this was not relevant to me. I was not present for any of
this to take place, but as a result, they Came, this
forbidden thing, they became this Army that you heard about,
but you couldn't see the Miniatures were rare.
The collectors were even rarer. Most people, if they bothered
with them, they had to convert them.
The hell Cannon came out in the late 90s with three chaos, to
off crewmen as a nod to the old concept.
But that was it. And so for a lot of the people
who are fans of it now, it's because it's a bit hit, right?
It's because you wouldn't face them on a table even in A normal
fourth edition, fifth edition, fandom group.
And that's what kind of brings us so much energy and freshness,
right? Because Jack always says to be
into it as an army, you have to do quite a lot of the work
yourself. Which automatically means that
when you meet a chaos tour fan up till the present day, you're
meeting someone who's putting a little bit of extra effort and a
little bit of extra reading done little bit of digging around the
edges. Right?
Saw the, the main thrust of the armies and thought there's more
to this. And that's what I think
attracts. The kind of people that keep a
community going all the way through the end of the world and
of the world was no big news for Warhammer.
Chaos dwarfs fans because fancy battle had already written ass
out, right? We had an army lists in 6th
edition ravening hordes nothing else.
And then Tamra, can Throne of chaos.
Introduced a new range from Forge World, but it's always
around the margins and I think that breeds are kind of
stubbornness to the culture. That's very Dwarven.
And I think that's one of the reasons why we have such love.
When we come to stuff like especially here, I haven't,
right? Because you read that era of
white dwarf. It's the Contemporary era of
white dwarf. A lot of us grew up with and
where we found out about the chaos to offs and then suddenly
had them snatched away. Yeah, I've I'm hoping to either
find a store player to experience cast wolves in the
tabletop or if I'm very lucky and get get some kind of chaos
tour Farm even because looking at looking at the Army lists you
know back in 93 and I've talked to you about that, just off air
before that. You know, it's a bloody
beautiful book, The Cars will it's gorgeous, it mean, it's all
in color, which is quite, you know, for that error.
Though, generally, all black and white, they had a lot of color
color plates in the book. They had a wonderful battle
Report with them featuring against the High Elves.
There's some nice background information to them.
So really, it's very much a complete, you know, Army book in
relation. If you compare it to all the
other RV, other books of that time and that, that error, but
Yeah. There's there's you know even
the book itself is quite rare to find online.
You know you don't see that many books you know for sale or
what-have-you. Yeah let alone the mirror tell
me about it. Yeah, it's a common thing.
I actually don't have a physical copy and the reason for that is
I feel adequately looked after by the fan projects so as I get
back into it I'm going to be a war hammer armies project.
A tradition person to start with with the next thing that I do,
but there's a lot to the existence of the army that is
tied entirely to the content, you find in the Army book and
it's a game of two halves with the collection, right?
Because you have this core concept of these Mesopotamian
chaos Dwarfs with these ringlet beards and these big hats and
these bullet imagery and all that kind of stuff.
And then along with them comes their public.
Goblin slave auxiliaries, right? Who are so disgusting.
And distasteful to the other greenskins, they can't be taken
in a green-skinned army and then you also have green skin slaves
as an army list option, right? Which opens up a lot of
different types of play because you can run this as a kind of
classic Dwarven gun line with a lot of stubborn infantry.
Can't be moved, you know sit back artillery and casters
hiding behind. Slow-moving infantry that you
don't really bother to advance or you can go with a much higher
risk, green-skinned horde strategy, which, you know, there
are special rules with animosity because of the way, the
hobgoblins affect the others, there's lots of things you can
do with with the magic and you can end up running, you know,
two armies that are both from the same Army book that are
radically different physically, radically different than a lot
of what you find. And also I think a lot of
collectors they are Secondary fans of a green-skinned faction.
So for me, it's been goblins, common goblins, not night
goblins. I've got about got about 700
goblins, painting in, based not painting, it makes chunks.
Then that's what I would say that because, you know, how it
is with a metal collection. You want to One of each Scopes,
right? Yeah, and I think that's been my
approach to it. Lots of them are from
third-party, right? Lots of them are from Kev Adams.
After he left, GW and stuff, like that, and then I've got and
of course, all the hobgoblins from the chaos porphyria were
metal. Then I've got plenty of plastic
doing me wrong, you know, I got semantic plastic mixed in there.
I've got the classic with maybe three of the classic common
Goblin regiment and then some battle for sculpt us.
Yes. Yeah, out of a skull pass night
goblins and stuff like that, but they just build up over time.
Yes. Well and I think it's one of
those things worth noting that if you do find a chaos fourth
player, they will often be playing with them, 20 minutes,
right? Because yeah, concept has been
so resilient and so popular. The tons of third-party
suppliers are said, well, if DW is not going to occupy, this
hill will sell you something and they come and go over the years.
And obviously GW return to it with the time account for 12,
resin kale scoffs, but fundamentally rooted in this 90s
concept is an aesthetic. That is so distinctive that it
really plays out. What I'm just going to do Josh
is I might just share my screen and show you an image from PDF
if that's all right. Yeah, sure, but I'll just share
that you can share. Now, whatever you want to do
that. So what we're looking at here in
this image, which is one of the big full color ones you are
talking about, right? So what you're looking at here
really is the whole range as it was in the 90s, almost, right?
There's one thing missing here and that's well, yeah, one thing
missing here and that's hobgoblin archers for Archers
because you've even got mixed bow and Axwell.
Friday's right. And here, you see the aesthetic
of the Army in all of its Glory. Which Is those big hettich?
Down the front, big toe, almost as tall, as you know, a
free-standing human, miniature, just with half the height being
hacked, it's about seven, sculpt in each of those regiments to
command sections behind them, you've got these barefooted
hobgoblin. Ax men who are your basic chaff
and then you've got hobgoblins on wolves, which fill your
light, Cavalry rolls back. You got your heavy Cavalry which
are bulls centaurs. Now the idea with these guys is
they've kind of been mutated by this minor chaos.
God, Chip rules the kale stew of sin and their half half.
Dwarf, half bull. You got two pieces of artillery.
So the Earth Shaker which has been given a slightly less
impressive than it normally gets position here on the side.
But is one of the most sought-after kids, you got a
rocket cannon, effectively called a death Shrieker.
That's the light artillery piece, and you got two monsters,
you got a flying bull. Great Taurus.
And that's what your lord rides around on and you got a lamb a
suit, which is based on an ancient.
Isn't Sumerian mythological beast.
That's, you know, basically, an animal with the head of a person
with a big beard and a big mutated chaos, dwarf face, and
then your sorcerer rides around on that.
And what's interesting about lamassu from a rules
perspective, is also wizard itself.
As in the animal, which adds a little bit of spice and this was
it, what you're looking at? In this picture is pretty much
everything that GW made in that Mesopotamian wave of chaos
water, and this is what people want to.
Act Right, 7, sculpture sculpture, bull sent or two
pieces of artillery, two monsters with riders and then
some green skins and some basic infantry.
And so I think one of the other things that appeals to people
about it is if you want this picture, right?
It's going to cost you. Yeah, I got one of most of these
things over time. You'll find it, but it's
achievable right more. So than say, I want one of every
Regiment of renowned from Dogs of War classic, right?
And so, I think the other thing about this as a side project, is
it appeals to a lot of those middle Hammer people who are
sometimes because I sent by itself Miniatures, right?
Sometimes I get contacted by guys who are like What I would
love is, I'd love to create this picture, right?
And then you work backwards from that and you say what's
possible? What's reasonable, what's
realistic? And it's one of the first
things, a lot of people want to talk about, but yeah, you're
absolutely right. It's very, I mean if you're
looking at this picture, you're looking at the aesthetic that
you're describing is fair is not Josh.
Well, I think so mate. Yeah I was looking at today.
I thought, you know that's that's that's what is that 3,000
points, isn't it? It's like, it's probably pretty
much. It's pretty much.
It pretty much has every single figure that I probably would
want to field in a cast or phone anyway.
And it didn't actually have all the the cuz I've got ya, because
one of the appeals that, as you said is, you can combine your
green skins with the chaos doors, which is, I think it's a
wonderful thing as I'm a green-skinned player.
So, you know, I think it is achievable because if I take out
for say, if I take out the I don't know.
The dwarf Warriors, for example, and replace those with some
black aux and actually count the hobgoblins and I replace those
with goblins. Well, then, you know, that that
collection becomes even more achievable for me.
I think, you know, financially am I I know it's quite the quite
rare and quite expensive, but there are means and ways of
actually getting those models. You know, if you really try hard
enough and, you know, look in the right places, which we can
probably touch on later for people.
Those for people who are sort of looking Miniatures, like these
nowadays. But yeah.
I mean, you know what, and the other Advantage I think Ford
cars doors with appeals to me, to is like being a dwarf player.
You know, the cast was sort of flip that on that on its head.
And you've got Calvary, you've got fast-moving, regiments,
you've got monsters, you've got magic, you've got some pretty
cool unique war machines as well.
So that then itself becomes very attractive to me as an army to
play on the on the battlefield as well.
Yeah, and one of the things you find as well, is because we've
had fan-made rules for such a long time that the community has
been kicking around for. What is it coming up on 25
years, or whatever? You're looking at a community
that if you join it, you can kind of name your poison, right?
So if an aspiring new member wants to join the disc order
wants to join the Forum. What, you're going to find is a
really accepting group of people who are going to Issei.
Okay. Cool.
So chaos dwarfs. That's a concept that you can
interpret a hundred different ways.
You could be a vintage fan, you could be a fourth edition fan.
You can even be someone who wants to reach back before this
range into the Third Edition kail store.
Such as I mentioned, we're very much mini chaos Warriors from
the 80s, right? And and you can do all sorts of
stuff and what are the things that we'll look at?
Later is some of the army blogs that the collectors and Painters
on on the Forum. Fire have poured their heart and
soul into but we're a community. I think that has that big focus
on making the collection work for the collector, in whatever
Direction. They want to take it because we
can't afford to be too choosy because we're on the outside.
All right. So this is not a group of
players who have a problem saying, okay, how do you want to
do this? Okay.
You want to do it 4th edition? Here at Hammer great.
Fantastic. Let's go away let's scour the
list it's come back. Back, bring some proxies, bring
some original vintage, have a nice chat about the army that
you're up against from the other person, talk about what era of
Warhammer, you're trying to evoke, right?
And then have an experience based on that.
That is by its very nature, not type of competitive because this
is an army that's been outside of any kind of gaming meta for
almost the entire generation of its existence, right?
And most of, most of our lives. But that said, I think one of
the other things that's really interesting about this group,
I'm just going to scroll through because this is from the battle
report in the middle of the the Weimar armies but is it does
carry with it for those who are gaming fans.
Some some interesting Rules by Rick Priestley, which is
basically shotguns the castle with Blunderbuss takes the role
of the ranged infantry, the basic range, she got some
hobgoblin arches. If you want some chef, and
that's fine. But one of the things that you
will find, if you are interested, is that you've got
this fire zone box? Where bye.
By your regiment will just kind of unleash a big hail into
whatever's in front of it, whether it be friendly or Foe
and that kind of anarchic vibe of we're going to do a lot of
damage and then we're going to pick up the pieces afterwards
and figure out how much of our army is left standing.
There's a theme that goes through the whole Force because,
you know, your Sorcerers because their dwarves, they should be
using magic. They've exposed themselves to
chaos. They turn to Stone.
Right. Gradually over time within chaos
to a culture, if you use mint and magic and that means there's
rules in. Therefore, if you miss cast your
sorcerer might end up as a useless lump of granite.
On the other hand, he might do a hell of a lot of damage.
So it's an army that fits with what you're saying.
When you talk about the classic green skin collector, wants to
go in a new and interesting Direction because if you're a
green-skinned play, you're already comfortable animosity,
right? You're already comfortable with
coming to play and creating chaos and maybe a bit of a mess.
And then just enjoying yourself while you do that.
And the last thing I'll say, is that if you go through the
rules, you'll find you can field full-on regiments of your green
skin. So you can have a goblin
regiment. You can have an old regiment.
Most importantly you can have Blackhawks and the reason you
can have Blackhawks is because calcium also invented the
backups. Yeah.
So they created them which adds a little bit of extra flavor and
spice because you know you end up with Pages like this of
classic metal or I'm sure you actually, I think have quite a
few of these days. Do I have all of those except
maybe one with a dagger in the ax?
Yeah. And, and you see these guys kind
of popping up in here because, you know, it's a collection
where it changes Direction. Hopefully through you, you might
get done with the chaos Norse, you want to do and think, okay,
now I want to go in my own Direction suddenly it becomes
this green skin project along the sides, and at the same time,
you have a lot of flexibility with a large collection, which
is as I mentioned, Mentions, what I do, right?
I got a lot of green skins way too many green skins but for me
that's part of the fun is being able to say, what am I going to
do? When I meet my friend, my going
to take goblins, we gonna do chaos tour forces chaos to off.
So we have a lot of fun with it. You can even do like, like a
rebellion game where you have like some there was someone
playing the green skins with this, the cows towards I've seen
better because I don't actually know until today when I was
reading through the book that the Black Hawks were created by
the cows stores. That's a very interesting take
and turn on things, isn't it? Yeah, it did not go.
Well yeah didn't know. That's right.
They've created their own enemy really having that and I think
for me so one of the projects I'm working on just privately in
the background, right? Is I Have a long-running fiction
series on the board and one of the things that we're gearing up
to do after our first, can I say, competitive is not
competitive but our first mass gaming event that we're going to
have in Holland in April, of next year, we're all going to
meet together blocks of the coastal of guys, from the board
is we're starting to look at narrative and how to play with
all those Concepts and say, okay, how do you make a campaign
series that covers? The green skins, as they switch
sides and the Rebellion is it happens and all that kind of
stuff. And really, it's a community of
people who are almost more into it for that kind of fun,
narrative clay, which I think is a good thing because there's a
there's if you want to play fourth you want to play, you
know, early editions and stuff like that.
Then it needs to be people who get it.
They get that. This is more about having fun
then it is about making an ironclad list and That's one of
the things that here I have. It does really well as a
community. Absolutely, you don't don't
don't play the old games for competitive play it just does
not work. You'll end up making more
enemies and friends. I think when you play it that
way, so yeah we just did like the drafting system with the
drafting of the items and that kind of thing.
You know, we have like really sort of fluffy narrative kind of
scenarios when we can and it just makes the game so much more
enjoyable, so much more memorable.
So that's what it's all about, really, isn't it?
But yeah, good pointed caps on the amount for the fourth
edition book, I think it's truly one of those.
Those are my books that people should have in their collection
because it is, it is a Hidden Gem that's been lost and
forgotten. And but should not be should not
be forgotten in many ways because, yeah, I've overlooked
it. But sadly have regretted it now
because it's got some really good content in there.
Yeah, I think it's it's one of the kind of Rites of Passage in
the chaos or Community when people join us in there
exploring and they're still fresh, maybe they had a podcast
or they saw one of our YouTube collaborations or whatever and
they're like, I heard about this seem to recall.
I want to find out more and they get hit with the price tag.
And and I think, you know, those of us who are old hands in this
game, know how that's going to work, but one of the things that
surprises people because it's so out of step with the other
vintage Warhammer, armies books is I said that the white dwarf
presents, but the reason for the price makes sense, when you
think about it, right? Because this was a white dwarf
presents production and therefore it was not treated as
a Prestige item, by most people who bought it.
If you think about classic or Hammer, all these books and why
they come back onto the market, they come back onto the market
because someone's got eight of them and they'll never use the
fourth edition one again, or someone hasn't done the whole be
for 20 years and opened a box. And it's a book they had when
they were a kid, that doesn't mean anything to them anymore.
Or you know, what do you talk about fourth edition Undead,
which is a real collector's piece I think you probably
agree. Josh you're looking at something
that there was a big print run and it was sold commercially as
part of getting what 44 cents, you know, it came free.
Most people who've got a copy, didn't keep their coffee because
it didn't have value to them. And it was for an army that fell
out of use of a lot of relevance and as a result, rather than
there being any problem nowadays with And the problem that you've
got a supply and that's one of the reasons why it is not part
of a lot of people's Collections and I don't have it myself and I
think I think I don't aspire to have it in many ways because the
copies that you can get might very well be quite dinged up and
I prefer to interact with it as it is captured in aspic in the
PDF where it is kind of captured for all time in all its Glory.
But it is one of those things where every now and again on in
the community, someone will post for that.
They've just got theirs. And and the thing everyone's
thinking, is how much because it's one of those ones.
And I really advise anyone he's a collector, if you see it at a
price that doesn't hurt you snap it up because I guarantee you,
it's sold for more and and you might very well find that seller
if you're ever looking to buy or trade.
But if you do have it, just remember how valuable it is.
If you get tempted to let go of it and if you ever want to find
a good place where it will find a good home, obviously Josh,
what's copy? But equally you can find
hundreds of people, I don't know.
We've got we've got I would say, we have about 150 200 guys on
this course and active posters versus lurkers on the Forum.
You know, it's low triple digits, it's a great group of
people, but especially, because it's a group of people that know
how to get things done, when it comes to finding stuff, you'll
always find. People take something off your
hands. You always find people who will
often to no personal benefit, help you find a vintage piece of
you're looking for it. Providing you willing to be
patient. All of the chaos to offensive
stuff. Can be found.
That the most important thing to remember, is patience is a hell
of a lot more important than eBay prices.
You're going to go to eBay, you're going to type in coughs,
coughs. You're going to be upset by what
you find, don't let that discourage you.
We know where to find collections.
That people want to let go of Minis that could easily be
scrubbed of a dodgy paint job and all sorts of alternative
ways to scratch the itch and that's the kind of thing.
You can only get from those communities that have been
plugging away in the background, right?
All right, well, I don't need to go into the Discord in and then
interact with some of the people there to find out exactly.
Where can I find these hidden treasure gems that I can I can
pick up for a bargain price. But yeah, I recently painted
one. I think I post up in your
Discord actually of a the the the giant or the great tourist.
Is it a great for us? Great support.
Yeah, it's a wonderful model is the first person cast off of a
painted. I really enjoyed the experience
of painting it A, I hope I hope I can.
I can only hope that I can get to paint more of those in the
future for myself, and make it my own little Milan and little
warband. Even if it's like a 2000 Point
Army, I'm quite happy. That's quite nice.
It's sort of represents the chaos towards in every every
aspect, you know, got some Cabaret in there and got some
light infratry maybe and some you know some nice blunderbusses
bring all the nice toys and yeah you can have a good fun.
I think there's I think Think I heard from one of my friends
here in Japan is there's a guy who actually has a full fourth
edition, cows Army. Some way here.
I don't know where he is. I've never seen it, but I hope
together actually have a game with him.
That is so interesting because I bet that, I don't know that guy,
but I bet that I've seen an image of him, right?
And the reason is because there is a famous image, and he's got,
he's it's a Japanese do he's got a, he's got a whole classic,
metal Hammer room, right? Set out.
One of the things is going. His wall is a war Master poster.
Like a big war, must be C. And this image if you ever see
it, I know there's another thing.
Yeah. Right.
And there's, there's a framed up, kale stew, or white white
dwarf presents, chaos troughs poster and I don't know whether
it's the book and he's put it in a frame or whether it's an
individual image, but it did the rounds because he bought to you,
you know, about this thing where you can get any white dwarf.
Cover painted on a t-shirt. Yeah, you getting green screened
out there me. Yeah.
Sorry, but it's our man. Our man is the, is the guy that
I met on Twitter and because most, most Japanese game is are
all on Twitter. Made the not on Facebook than on
any other right? Yeah, Twitter and he's got the
most amazing collection of Miniatures.
Like beautifully painted to round of fifth edition stuff
because I think fifth edition was the first sort of addition
that broke into Japan. Like through the translation.
I don't think he has a caste War far me, sadly, but he's got
some, he's got, he's got chaos and High Elves and Empire.
I think there is the three main enemies that he has maybe
something else as well, but they're all beautifully painted,
really amazing. Yeah, I think it's one of those
things where like as time passes that the relevance of the Army's
going to shift because we're about to be and some of us are
excited and some of us are battening down the hatches.
And I'm both we're about to be bombarded by total war war
hammer fans. It's not coming soon but it is
coming. And you had on what goes with.
So Tech is very big in that community.
But it is coming but yours all career to its point.
It is coming, I would say within two years as a downloadable
content race pack that's going to be the first time that people
have officially investigated the case for concept.
Since a tradition Tama can Forge World range and I think it's
fair to say that they're not just going to revisit the 8th
Edition Tama conversion, they're going to revisit everything that
you've got behind. You with the big hats and the
Tauruses and all that kind of stuff, because if they want to
make a video game, they got to have all sorts of the units.
And Tom McCann was a limited list that was designed to be
released in particular way. And then Forge world's went in a
different direction and how that affects the fandom is not clear.
But it will also do something to define a restatement and a
remastering of something that got very little attention.
I don't know if you're aware of what they've done with vampire
Coast. Josh.
Not not, not aware of that. Sorry.
Okay, so all I would say is, they took the concept of Luther
haakon which comes from vintage white dwarf articles, and they
turned it into a whole Army and a whole faction and invented
units and mastered law and all this kind of stuff.
And there isn't that much for chaos thoughts, right?
You got the contents of the book, we've just been talking
about, then you got the contents of talocan, afraid of chaos
which is released much later as part of their very dog, end of a
tradition before. Times that's it.
Those are the official sources. You got a couple of white dwarf
articles in the 80s that aren't connected to the Mesopotamian
concept and so creative assembly.
GW working together. They're going to come back to
this and I have no doubt that end as they evolve it towards
the old world, they're also going to change it to some
degree. It's gonna be really interesting
to see what they do. But also from a training
perspective, it's going to be really interesting to understand
whether the total value of classic 90s vintage.
Big hats is going to go up or whether It's going to go down.
Yeah, my, my Gambit would be probably going to go up.
Yeah, just because the number of eyeballs alone is going to
create new demand, and there is not a healthy type of Supply
into the market. There is just stuff that people
never got around to painting stuff that comes from great
Market sources and not much else.
And from that perspective, I think if you are interested, I
think get involved in the community now.
Because the community is still made up of those parochial
tabletop types. You know what I mean?
Who are excited by the concepts and they love the Vintage stuff,
stuff like that. They haven't been drowned out by
the fresh blood and we're excited about the fresh blood,
but he's going to change things and move the storyline along.
And there's something, you know, from the 90s that that you guys
have done such a fantastic job of preserving and a whole level
and the quite a lot of people in our community, they want to
preserve slightly narrowly. On chaos dwarfs in itself
because it's a concept that's been battered by The Winds of
time. Well, okay nice.
Yeah. Now personally speaking I've
never played the the computer game but I can I can sense from
the podcast of listen from your you guys there that it seems to
be. Yeah, it's exciting people and
building a bit of hype there. So I hope it will fulfill the
dreams and wishes of all the cast of players out there
including yourself and yeah, I would say maybe it definitely it
will Like up sales might like you know the prices will just go
up through the roof if they're not already, then they're going
to be, you know, either already pretty.
Yeah. But there was a 3D printed
version of the is this type of fourth edition Army that some
person had done and you probably know who I'm talking about but I
can't remember the name of it. So the concepts been visited
quite a lot of times. Yeah.
And and it continues to inspire people because there's so much
Mesopotamian stuff to drawn to take it in your own Direction.
So there are lots of different ranges.
What I would say without wanting to get either of them in trouble
with the IP belief is that if you like the Mesopotamian aspect
and you, you you want something epic and you know, kind of
ziggurats and demons and all that kind of thing.
Then there's a maker called Lost Kingdom minute.
Is now here I have my fans will also know Lost Kingdom because
they make a fantastic set of britannians.
They make a fantastic set of wood elves.
The guys digital sculpture operating skip digital sculptor
operating out of Spain and he's known for the massive epic,
sweeping nature of what he does, but it isn't quite on the fourth
edition end. And since we're here with you
Josh, the the supplier that I think fits the fourth Edition
version of the aesthetic. Best is a guy called fables El
Sol fa B yields edia type that into Google, you'll find him and
fabbs is great because personal use in our community.
So we know really well, we've met your kingdom or at least
digitally met and we've interviewed and but you know,
he's off doing all sorts of ranges but Fabs has a love for
the big hats in the hobgoblins as they were presented.
Back in the 90s and Ferb's of stuff.
He has a patreon that supports him in his creative.
Pretty gives the stl's out free, so if if you are, he's a
passionate guy. But then also where the kind of
community that probably puts more behind him on patreon
precisely because we wouldn't have to, you know, what I mean.
Even someone can't or doesn't choose to, they still get to
enjoy the Miniatures, and grow the community.
And as a result that generates a lot of Goodwill, that makes a
lot of people really happy to interact with them.
The other option, people have if they want physical Miniatures is
a Guy called Russian alternative is named Sergei.
You can find Russian sensitive. Again, if you're a classic
fantasy fan, you might have seen Russian alternative before he
does stuff. That's not kill sports, but I
think it's fair to say that his infernal Dwarfs of fire.
Can, you know, I believe they're called range, is, is his biggest
and probably one of his tent poles at this point.
And there, you can find all takes on that aesthetic, that
you're seeing on the cover of the book, right there.
You know, people they'll make a A Taurus because I can take it
in the right direction. Oh, speaking of horses, you can
also find similar minute she's on Skype or which is a famous
polish maker SC IBO are. And if you're listening to this,
in November of twenty Twenty-One, he's actually got a
Black Friday sale on right now, that makes this price as a bit
better than they normally are because they're quite extreme
but fundamentally. You know, Fabs is the person
you're thinking of Josh because Fabs is the guy who is set out
to say I liked it the way that it was actually people can Take
it in their own Direction. They can make it Grimmer and
darker and more evil. All this kind of stuff, but I
kind of like the proportions. I like the big goofy face, but
be hats on the hobgoblins. Let's just do that again.
He's done a fantastic job of it. I don't have any yet that's
because I don't print. I got make to print who say they
come out? Really great.
I don't know whether that's something that you guys in in,
chronic Malden and the kind of Gaming Community that Sits
around hero Hammer I don't know if printed minis or something
that I see too often in the articles that you guys have.
Is it a big thing that you're into?
It's not because but I think it's just becoming a more of an
inevitable thing thing that's going to happen.
You know, I think this the scanning the original models and
putting them out has become more controversial.
But but I think for creators like like him That are creating
sort of the the fourth edition mistake.
The night is aesthetic and having new ranges, I think.
Yeah, why not? I mean that's that's that's I
think that's wonderful. That people are still doing
that. I mean it really amazed me when
I saw what he was doing and the style that he was doing it in
the quality of the Miniatures. Look really, really nice.
And for the first time, I found something that I thought, you
know, I'd be tempted just to just to grab a few of those just
paint them up to see what they look like, because yeah.
I love my mental models. You know, you know, I'd love to
get the originals but if they're just so financially unattainable
then this is a wonderful alternative and I hope he does
more range of different models. Like the fourth edition dwarf
range for example which for some people oh, maybe just way out of
their reach financially, where if he could design a range that
match the aesthetic of the of them raw to dwarves and the
Citadel dwarves that period, Then I think you'd find a bigger
fan base, you know, and he did, like the Empire, or he did
things like the lot of the cow stuff like beastmen and cows
Warriors, and that kind of thing that show just extremely
expensive if you want the original stuff now, Yeah, it's
not kind of. Yeah and I think there's so many
different ways to skin that cat as it were Brian because you can
you can approach the fourth edition aesthetic and say I
would like to buy these as they were.
You can approach it. And say I would like to find
makers of stl's who are inspired by that era and have that Focus.
You can find people who are, like, I want something that will
proxy whether it be from historical, or Wherever else
that I can then converts up with a few, you know, judicious bits
of work. I think the thing that matters
and that I found. So great when communicating with
and hell. And all you guys is, as, with
our community, it's one where you come with a concept and the
people you meet will all have a different thing that can help
you to realize, right? And so printing is not for me.
Personally running a resin printer isn't practical with my
house which is Is two stories up a building, so airflow with a
devoting, a room to a resin printer.
You know, that's not something for this stage of my life.
But my friends who have them swear by them, right?
And the ground that they sink into their printer is, is cash
that I spend on other people doing that work.
So it's about what you want to get out of it and what your
goals are. But I do definitely think that
as time passes, you see a lot of these people To the old
Warhammer fantasy crowd, who I think it's fair to say, you
know, our amateur group, we've got quite Deep Pockets, right?
They're willing to pay and I think that's what's brought GW
back around to the old world and quite how the old world does,
and what it means. And what the Miniatures that
are, that relate to it, and all this kind of stuff, we don't
know. And we'll have to find out.
I've been meaning to ask, I mean, you guys very much, you
focus on this era specifically. So I would imagine in your T,
the old world doesn't really register on the radar, a huge
amount other than the Miniatures that it might release because
you're going to stick with the rule set that you enjoy.
Anyway, right? Yeah, that's that's kind of a
thing. Like, you know, I've been
thinking about what they're going to do and what it's going
to be, what the initial product will be launched as but I don't
think it will replace the love of my Warhammer.
It won't be the same and I think it's not just that it's just
like 6th edition wasn't my war hammer. 7th edition, 8th Edition
wasn't my war hammer so and and that's nothing against GW and
what they're doing nowadays, it's just probably just it's
very different. What it does just doesn't match
my kind of play style or the reasons why I got back into
doing this, was because I wanted to play the old systems.
I wanted to play the games that I thought were just gave me more
enjoyment or had the memories were there.
And I think anything new related to what hammer, in whatever, it
might be, just don't have the same kind of Gravitas, all the
same kind of The memory triggers that Nostalgia plays in your
mind when you play those games of the 90s, it doesn't have
that. It's for a new era of gamer or
it's from for, you know, people in the market who are sort of
coming into, what am I from ages Sigma?
And that kind of thing. So I don't know it's going to be
I was actually really hoping they're going to change the
scale and just make it a completely new game.
I was really hoping they're going to make it like a an epic
scale game that that would probably To me a lot more
personally, but, you know, and but yeah, all see what it comes
out to be, you know, it might be something that and I'm not going
to buy it. I'm not going to buy any
matches. I'll go, if Justin one of my
mates Justin here or Paul wants to buy it and by the corset and
say, you know, I'll bring it around and we'll have a game of
it and I can use all my existing models.
Yeah, I'll give it a go but I don't think I'm going to enjoy
it as much as I do with the old system.
So Have yourself. Well, I mean for me, I'm coming.
Sorry, I didn't tell you guys the backstory for me personally,
which isn't very typical from the board, but like I came back
to the Hobby like two years ago, after a 15-year Hiatus, after
growing up, and I think a lot of people especially in their 30s
will identify with this. That, like, I can afford when I
was a kid, I had like, what I beg scale or borrowed from me,
no, my more affluent mates, who didn't care about the, The Minis
that they lost interest in. And then mostly I just watched
it from the sidelines by reading white dwarf, right?
And and from that perspective, I came back to it without.
But, you know, with some playmemories from stores,
burning a hole in my pocket, Nostalgia wise.
But it was just one of those things where I was like, I want
to do something crafty. I want to paint and sculpt and
and convert and drill and all this kind of stuff.
And I got the spare time. Why not?
And X Grand of hobby money later here I am in my lamp and a
wallet that no longer I have to drag around on the floor because
of how much lighter it's gone and buying everyone on this, you
know, empathizes with that, right?
I've chased every Kev Adams, sculpt like answer to hell or
high water and that's been the hobby almost collecting has been
the hobby for me. Yeah.
But what I would say is I didn't play Fantasy during that era.
A Recollections of fantasy of minimal but they probably come,
mostly because they come from the old days when GW stored have
two tables, right? And they have some 40K ruins,
that look like a church, that was all sprayed gray and they'd
have a nice green fields where your goblin Green Fantasy game
would take place and maybe they'd switch out the trees to
do more. Masculine, more Master is
releasing. All that kind of stuff.
And I had some Forest goblins had about 20.
There's a mix of bows and hand weapons and I did.
Add them to the line of whatever more green skinny looking Army.
There was and they they'd all die and and it was fun but like
I don't I wasn't beholding to the game system.
So for me I'll be interested in Old World because I'll be
interested in how it compares to Warhammer.
Armies project to the fan books that we have to a tradition
Tanner. Can the thing that we're going
to do in April's going to be a tradition.
Why? Because we pulled the community
and the thing that most people had most experienced all those
eight. one of the reasons that I wanted to come on your show and
talk to you specifically Josh was because We have fans of the
aesthetic of the mid 90s, like me, who don't know, gaming in
the mid-90s in the way that your community does and I wondered,
if you could tell the people who've kind of, followed me to
watch this podcast, if you could help them, to understand what
makes fourth fifth edition that era that you focus on the most.
So flavorful and fun. Because they have the rule book,
they will learn They can find PDFs the center of their center
of gravity is is on eight right now because in many cases,
that's the thing that they're familiar with.
So what made it different? Why do people call it hero
hammer and like what does it have to commend itself to to
Gamers? But that's a good point because
I you know I didn't really think about that until you know coming
back into the hobby coming back into like sort of the nineties
gaming error because you know we all got caught up in.
Well I did anyway I got in caught caught caught up in other
games. Games, after leaving Games
Workshop. Either for light painting
projects, and later became Infinity.
That's way back in second edition, that it became more of
a competitive, you know, iits Style game.
And I think a lot of the games like a tradition and 6th edition
were sort of catered For Those competitive players, you know,
because became more of a corner. But seen you know, and people
went to tournaments to play competitively and they sort of
balance the lists and they sort of sort of created the Rolls
around and the armless around, you know, people who played
competitively and became more focused on that than more of the
narrative style. Play fourth edition in its
roots. I think listening to Rick
Priestley and some of the interviews that he had, and if
you read, even if you read, even the books, you know, they're
basically saying hey, these are the rules.
If you want to change them, feel free, they're just basically
like a sort of a guideline, you know, if you want to change.
JH something to know to match your theme or style or the way
you want to play. Go for it.
I think, you know, Nigel, Stillman and Rick Priestly are
sort of big Advocates of that kind of style of play.
So those games like fourth edition and even Third Edition,
really sort of more narrative based games.
So they weren't really play tested for tournament play so
much. So, they came in a lot of
problems. I think, with tournaments that
the things that people would were breaking the game because
they'll taking certain combinations of magic items or
units that just made, it, will gay people really bad memories
and maybe a fourth edition. I think it's got a bit of a bad
rap, to be honest. And a lot of people sort of came
away thinking, oh, this is a horrible game, but in its
Essence, it's not, it's really a wonderful wonderful spirited
game because it was created by people.
It really wanted to enjoy and experience more than a
tournament style, you know, equally matched kind of a
setting. So there's a lot of flavor.
There's a lot of characters they really made these, you know,
magic items which are just crazy if you look at them now.
But they all had its place. What are you thinking of when
you think crazy like you know, like the Forbidden rod, for
example, I think there's one of the the Is that were sort of
blacklisted in one of Rick's particles into 22.
They had to Bear to tone down a lot of these really powerful
weapon magic items because yeah, they would, they would just ruin
games with people, you know, you know that basically cast spell
with total power. Now, total power in 4th edition
because fourth edition magic and fifth edition, magic was
completely different from all the other editions.
So you had this all card-based and And I think from 6th Edition
on was all dice-based. That Pedal Power of just meant
that you just couldn't dispel the spell that when it was cast.
So if you had the Forbidden Rod, you had to make a roll.
Of course, if you're all the one or two it would, it would it
would break the item and you'll get a wound or something like
that. I think from memory.
But yeah, they had, they had a few items that were very, very
powerful. And because, because they're
also powerful power Gamers back in the day, the neckbeards as
that they put in the rate, it would like to call them, they
would take them all the time. You'd have these that are preset
items that people will take, you know, they'll have these Ward's,
save items that would make them very involved in vulnerable,
like black amulets and then don't have some very powerful
sword, like a Hydra sword. And, you know, your Source would
be tooled up to the max to make them almost unkillable.
Riding some Hydra or Manticore or something like that.
So it was the real wild west of Warhammer.
That's probably the best way to define 4th and 5th edition, but
The designers never meant it to be like that, you know, they
never meant it to be. If you look at the white dwarf
battle reports from the 90s, you can see the flavor, you can see
the the the unbalanced Point values of both sides because it
wasn't really a major issue, who would be the most strongest, who
would be the most powerful. And in, in a particular
scenario, it was based, okay? This is the idea.
This is the concept, these are the forces we have.
Okay, let's all let's get them all together and just just play.
And have fun. So I think that was probably the
main difference. I think.
Interesting. So it sounds like what you want
with with a kind of classic hero Hammer game.
First of all is you want to have your character-driven play,
right? You want to have your I've
invested points and time into these characters which then if I
think about it, my step back from it, lends itself naturally
to narrative play, if these characters are having such a
huge effect on the outcome of the battle.
And if the magic items that Have potentially capable of
completely changing what happens in the game, then it's a system,
that's maybe more amenable to telling stories and to, a mixed
campaign, or keeping a campaign log in a way, that maybe some of
the later additions, which focused a little bit on pushing
Miniatures and having a big, a team and strong Banner of the
world Dragon, regiment in the middle of the board.
Makes it hard. Does that make sense?
I think so, I think it does. Yeah.
I think from six additional words, like, Thomas Puritan took
over the Warhammer development. Yeah, and yes.
He came from a tour of a tournament based point of view,
and I think marketing wise, they wanted to sell more models
because, you know, that was the kind of, that's, that's their
kind of thing. You know, the rules won't sell
that the rules don't make. The money is diminishes and make
the money. Yeah.
And they want more and more models on the table.
So that's basically they're sort of driving angle sales-wise
about marketing wise Fourth edition, you can get away with
having a virus. We looked at the the the cows
are me. The fourth edition, I was 3,000
points. There's not that many models.
You know, you can get away with quite a small, especially chaos.
You know, you can get a get away with a very small amount of
models, but all them goblins might be different contrast in
terms of points, but you could have smaller armies.
You can play 59 points, we play 1500 points and its really nice.
Enjoyable match for clouds. Yeah, it's good.
It fun. But yeah you just bake it how
you want it to be, you know, you you can make it very competitive
like the math and the guys that the the fly Little cast, a flail
of skulls come podcast. I'm sorry.
Talk about where you can sort of tailor really tournament based
lists, or you can play it, like we do where we just play it
very, very Loosely. And, you know, just just for a
laugh and having having some fun which is, I think in essence
the, the main reason why we play games like this, you know?
Okay, well I think that's really exciting.
I think if there's people from the board's who are listening to
this who have history and pedigree with that kind of
thing, then definitely check out the the stuff that Josh has got
going on and especially I think read the magazine because it's
such a lovingly created and wonderful rendition of white
dwarf as it was then. And I think the most important
thing that I'm Take away from this conversation.
We've had Josh is that when the time comes to make my big
narrative campaign here, I hammers Great era for me to be
gaming in because those characters that we build the
story around, are going to have the power level.
That means that they reshaped the board around themselves and
it's going to make the story more character-driven.
Then if they just end up dead under a pile of goblins, which
is probably what would happen if I tried to do the same thing,
you know, it's probably also what's going to happen to me in
about 20 years. But we'll have to see.
Yeah, I think, I think all of us are on the, in the hobby, for
different reasons. Some people, just interrupt for
just collecting and painting. I mean, like you said, like the
collecting as is another sort of aspect the hobby that people
enjoy. You know?
I've actually enjoyed doing that to you do for the last few
years, collecting bits and Bobs that I've always wanted and
completing collections or it might be and still collecting,
you know, that's, that's that's another part of the ask.
Another aspect of hobby, that's very enjoyable.
It takes a lot of time, but a lot of the cost a lot.
Money. But yeah, some people don't even
play the game. Some people just put collate,
the models, paint them up, stick with the cabinet and just be
happy with that. Yeah, but I mean right now as a
three-stage hobby, I'm at the part where you collect them
painting is something I'm going to have to learn.
Yeah, yeah, pain is not for everybody.
I can tell them to stand that, right?
It's for me, it's about setting aside the time, making it
happen, I'm calling my bluff on that one because My blogs.
So, what you do, let me just share my screen one more time
because we're coming to the end. I think it's of the stuff that I
wanted to talk about. And what we're looking at here
is we're looking at chaos tools online the board.
Now, you know, there's a Facebook group, a Discord chat
room, full of idiots, myself included actually, yeah, I love
that, I love. And and this is kind of where we
kind of congregate is the board. The board is where you set up
your blog, right. And I'm not going to, you know,
drain it. But my writing series is on this
background stories and art section, right?
And that's been really fun, just past three thousand readers of
that. If I then go into the miniature
showcase. This is really the capital city
of the of the board, right? And what we often do with new
people, is we say Say, oh well, when are you going to start a
blog and really what that means is fundamentally, what have you
got to show? What are you working on?
What are you interested in and then your blog as with so many
other boards and forums becomes a place where you make that that
long and what you would find if you went through this is some of
the most beautiful Miniatures that I've ever seen in terms of
the design but also a huge amount of diversity in the
direction that people take it in.
You got goblin Green bases in here, you've also got, you know,
People who sculpt things lovingly in our painting
competitions or Time, reavers Blog at the top river is also on
our podcast is a good mate of mine and it's my father, the
most viewed because of the conversion work that he does.
But fundamentally, you know, the thing that I think the bluff
that I need to call this, I started a couple of blogs on
here and they're just the list of the Miniatures that I bought
and it's my effort to kind of egg myself on and say I've been
Beerus myself in front of everyone by admitting how many
Miniatures I now have. And now I have to chip away at
the gray mountain and and eventually over time turned them
into something as impressive as if we look at Eddie's blog, you
know, all of the Vintage stuff that's being created, people
making their own stl's and printing them and then painting
them up. You know, people doing this is
my favorite thing. Eddie's done recently, right?
He's taking a skaven warlock. And converted them into a
hobgoblin, but you got blood Bowl teams everything from all
over the area that explores the concept.
And then you know, obviously we have the off-topic Showcase.
If you've got some second edition Imperial Guard or
something like that, that you want to show from from other
games systems as well. And I know I'm laying down my
challenge to myself on your podcast, Josh to say, I know I
need to paint something and post it up here, but I think anyone
is halfway interested in in chaos troughs should consider
doing Doing the same thing. They want to collect some, they
can find people in the direct messages or on the marketplace
thread, who they can speak to you about what to find and how
to find it cheaply. But then equally, you can just
have a really great time. You know, looking at some
really, really special Miniatures and join the painting
contest. I've encouraged everyone from
our community to join the, the ones that you guys have had as
well. And just, take whatever range is
used to collect in whatever Direction you want to take it.
Nice. But yeah, I still can't get over
this. There's such a massive
Community, just devoted, just a cast or it's incredible.
The things bear in mind is that like, active posters, and, and,
and all that kind of stuff you're talking about, dozens not
hundreds, right? But then the Facebook groups
about 1,500 people, you know, some of the, the fiction has got
two and a half thousand readers, but those people usually don't
speak, we recently emailed everyone.
One from the old Community from the boarding Forum that we shut
it down now and we converted it all over in our big archive.
But as you'll see the archive Community Awards, go back to
2007. But if you think about how the
Army back goes back to 90, the Army book goes back to 1994.
You know, there's a lot that's built up over the years.
The key thing is, if it didn't happen here in the world of
chaos dwarfs, probably didn't happen.
Right. There are a huge number of
people who are still Paying attention to this Army outside
of this tent. And we look for opportunities to
bring new people in, which is what we thought when we, when we
were reading, you know, your magazine, listening to your
podcast, we thought we'd bet there's an exchange of value
that can take place here and we look forward to seeing lots of
new hero. Hammer people if they want to
come and join the party but they're more than welcome.
So yeah, we would love to see it.
So again, yeah, if if your community are interesting in the
hero, Amber age. It's not you know, totally
unaccessible. You can find the PDFs or the
books. And it's mainly just the, the
magic system, which will probably be the most difficult
to Source because you need the actual set because it was sold
is actually the box magic. So what's that is that storm of
magic, or what was it called? The battle magic.
So it was called, yeah. Why not magic for 5th edition
and whatever. Magic for 4th edition.
So the two differences, but they're both compatible.
Like, if you had one or the other, all right, - both one.
Because there wasn't, there wasn't much in that wasn't a
massive difference between 4th and 5th.
In terms of rules or magic. They were very, very similar.
So if but you can print those out in a, you got plenty of
files on our, on our here, a groups on Facebook, you can
print those out. And and just get a pair of just
get it like a set of playing cards and you can make those
basically until Winds of magic deck and that kind of thing.
So there's Ways and Means of getting around it and I hope and
I encourage and I'll get onto your Discord and start, you
know, plugging away on there about you know, this kind of
thing and maybe sharing some files, whatever.
So people who want to try the the the fourth edition cows
dwarf, Army lists on the table one day.
Yeah, that'll be wonderful to see and hopefully, I can see
some pictures of that happening soon mate.
So that be good. Excellent.
Well, thank you very much, Josh. I really enjoyed coming on.
Thanks for making the time and all that kind of stuff and let's
I guess see each other around both communities.
Definitely might know, thank you very much, kind of your time to
come on today, mate. And I hope to come back on to
your podcast or whatever. Whatever format you want me to
come back onto and And yeah, we can, I can talk to you guys
about some, the here, I'm out here, I have my age and why it's
why it's the best age to get into cows tools but thank you
very much for your time today. Really enjoyable, chat today,
and I hope people will will get out there.
Cast off Collections and sell them to me.
Thank you very much.