All right, we'll look at a bit of a special episode today,
because I've got 2x heavy metal painters from the 1990s, but
they've Perry, and and Stewart, Thomas guys.
Thanks very much for coming on. No, Chester must be it.
Yeah, thank you. It's the pleasure's all mine
guys. So I thought I'd get you on to
talk about your hobby history, like how you actually got into
the hobby, everyone has a story and that Probably a very similar
in some ways but some are quite different.
So, Stewart, how would you like to get underway?
Might, how'd you get into the wonderful world of miniature
painting? Whoa, started with probably like
lots of others, making airfix kits.
And what have you as it as a kid?
I was in a model shop. One day and saw all these
fantasy kits on the on the shelves.
And Piqued. My curiosity and box plastic
skeletons. And that was the that was the
original skeleton, horde box set, one of the first plastic
box sets and yeah, that was it. Yeah.
That was are fixed to Citadel in one swell foop.
Yeah. What.
The first copy of white dwarf and that was it that was I was
hooked from there. No spent.
That's great. How about you Dave?
Yeah. I mean it's kind of Summer, I
guess. But like essentially you know, I
was into the Lord of the Rings. I was into, you know, the
Dungeons and Dragons cartoon on the TV.
Final fantasy books were massive in the UK and it's especially
they had Steve Jackson's sorcery, which had all the John
Blanche covers them. And then one day, it was like a
school. We had these like play days
every so often weak people bringing games in this because I
sat next to be brought in his big brothers, toy soldiers.
And I was just like my God, this is awesome.
These are like little And so that's tough in those books or
similar flight Lord of the Rings same thing once, you know then
sort of you know, white dwarf in the newsagent and that was it.
I was just like, oh my God, this is like life-changing people
with some guys and Stewart. What was the first miniature
that really captures your eye? In which many did you initially
by and paint? Well, the first ones who has
plastic skeletons. Definitely.
And then, then I work my way through a couple of boxes of BT
Space Marines, mostly painted with enables and very basic
level painting. I think the first first thing
that I consciously bought as a Thing that I wanted to get
specifically, I think, oh God my been a Dreadnought actually.
One of the original sort of metal de Radio, dreadnoughts.
I think that was probably the first first blister pack that I
got. But yeah, it was just yeah I at
that time I just tended to Why would I ever looked interesting?
You know, did you have Games Workshop stores back there?
Now, I used to go to my local model shop, the nearest Games
Workshop store back then, to me would have been probably London,
which was couple of hours train ride away.
And the one opened up in Brighton which was nearer to me
two or three years after I got into it.
I was scared that would because I remember going to the opening
day that when they used to do, the the big extravagant opening
days with lots of special offers and what have you?
Yeah, but the yeah, the let's go.
So I think this is like a run up to doing this chat.
I was thinking about the good old days and how it all started.
I thought, like one of the big things that's worth talking
about is compared to these days where, you know, workshops
massive As the internet there's apps and is information that the
touch of Happiness, literally in your pocket back then when we
were getting into it, there was nothing there weren't that many
stores. There was obviously no internet.
You know it was really neat and it was that was part of the joy
that was really looks like he was like you were discovering
this kind of almost kind of like secret kind of like Hobby and
society and he cleaning sort of bits of information and
knowledge step-by-step and like meeting people who also into it.
And Somehow that was part of the process of like patching it all
together. Whereas now it's, you know, it
feels like it's just laid out on a plate, isn't it?
You know, this like stores are everywhere, magazines,
everywhere you go online. You know, it's very mainstream,
but I just was very different back then.
And, yeah, well, that was literally all we had was white
dwarf. I didn't know anybody at school.
Who was into this? I was, it wasn't until I got to
college that I met people who, who were like-minded, who were
into this, even the fantasy stuff.
Like Dave said, you know, prior to this, I've been into Star
Wars Transformers Lord of the Rings.
All of that sort of thing, the fighting fantasy stuff.
But yeah, it wasn't until I got to college that.
I met people who were into it with me.
If I can get into it with, you know, it was very much as I do
also, I lived in quite an isolated area, so there wasn't
in a big town. So.
Yeah, I was it was pretty much a solo hobby for the first three
or four years that I was into it.
So it's too early in terms of your actual like your interest
in the hobby that early stage, literally just painting
miniatures. We're ever interested in gaming
or is it just possible? He first knows, definitely just
the painting is collecting and painting.
Same here, the move the move from airfix kit.
The gaming side of it was again, didn't come along until I found
other people who are like minded up until that point.
Yeah, it was purely about painting.
That's I think, why I Quite good at it was because that was the
only thing that I did was you saw the pretty pictures in white
dwarf and wanted to make my stuff look like that.
Yeah well that was a witness still.
So my kind of like Fondest Memories of those days was like
literally you just spin any spare time that's like pouring
over the pages of dwarf again. And again, especially if you had
a sick day off school over there on the couch under my quilt or
whatever. And it's like a pilot to offset,
this goes to him and he literally looking at The same
pictures over and over again. Yeah, never grew tired of it,
you know. No, it's yeah.
Each each issue was was devoured.
The easy I can certain points. I can I can remember of specific
times. You know, the the white dwarf
with all the, the new background for The Elder and Jesse's
striations, wasn't it? Yeah.
But wasn't that 127, wasn't it? Yes.
Are you was?
Yeah, yeah. So there you go.
It's like yeah. But that was a, that was a
Quantum Leap Forward in in the background and storytelling.
And also there was a the way that the Miniatures were painted
and suddenly become a lot more. Ordered, you know each.
Yeah, there was a there was a definite next step to to what
had what had been before that I think I suppose like with
hindsight, you know, you know. And again this kind of my
favorite era but, you know, you think prior to that it was
obviously there was Mike was Tim but Dale Hearst was still there,
Ivan Bartley. Colin was still doing a bit of
painting, or whatever. And, so, all these quite
disparate Styles, we're still featured in white dwarf.
But with that held it with that elderly, Snap was essentially
mainly Mike Wright and Tim did a couple where he was very closely
following the sort of new style that my could develop but that
was really the beginning of, you know, that Workshop style that
then lasted, you know, well through our area and, you know,
even if they in some ways but that was that that's, you know,
I think what you're talking about is that standardization.
We're all of a sudden, it had a, you know, it wasn't about all
these different artists with different ideas and different
takes and how they paint. It was like this is the workshop
way. Yeah, that was definitely.
Definitely the the beginnings of the house style.
Heavy metal style call it. What you like?
That was? Yeah.
That that period around the end. Yes.
I think it was the end of I suppose it was the when, when
40K was was growing Beyond just the, just the basic rogue Trader
side of it. Yeah, it must have been the nine
that was when things were, yeah, that was when things were
starting to push forward and become, yeah, developer style
much more, which was great for, from my point of view because it
was again, it was something that I wanted to copy wanted to
emulate. Islet.
And It was that was the focus. Yeah, I'm asking it was just so
inspiring at the time as well wasn't win because I see it's a
bit of a cliche to belay everything at Jesse's feet.
That's true. But you know, he's figures
really that Quantum Leap in the actual figure design as well,
was the Catalyst for better painting but then literally when
you bought those figures, the casting for so much better.
The designs so much cleaner. The all of a sudden.
I mean, literally, they were, you know, the Miniatures were
capable of being painted to a higher standard, you know, it's
Everything change. yeah, they gone from from fantasy figures
weather. A bit of a twist into into the
40K design ethic that that carried on from then on and
yeah, that it definitely opened the door.
I think two more. More painterly way of looking at
things. That makes sense exhaust fumes
of. So, how long did you think?
You mentioned animals? So I had to smoke.
That was also slightly, you know, the fun thing, isn't it?
Like everyone's like, I found my first set of acrylics.
That was it never touched. Another animal again, I do find
it. Funny, the enamel paints an oil.
Paints, and, and things like that sort of seeping their way,
back into the, the miniature painters tool drawer again for
various effects and things like that.
And I'm just no, no, no. You said I but still the best.
Yeah. And I still don't know how he
did it. I really don't know.
The transition I've got with made the transition from acrylic
from animals to acrylics was was painful.
Literally, because I got used to licking the brush and blending
and doing all that sort of thing and then occasionally, you'd go.
And you start painting with a bit of enamel.
Yeah. Yeah.
You never want to let your brush when it's covered in Terps you
certainly won't forget it. That's personal.
Yeah. So did you said leave the first
enamel? A sorry acrylic paint you bought
with a The Citadel paint range. Guys.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
I mean, I was a college by then. So I was using acrylic paints at
art college for those would be tubes, which weren't really.
I tried using them on Miniatures, but they never
really worked as well. And I think I just gradually
worked my way through building up the buying, the Citadel ones.
Yeah, I mean even that there was something magical to that.
I remember my first set was the, you know, the bass, fiddle color
set the red box, you know, and got the stuff I did back then
was awful like I couldn't do skin.
So skin was just Sunburst yellow.
So I was like, painting sculpting with arches and the
any flesh area would just be like bright yellow, you know,
except for this on the sets and eventually when you talk to The
Experts, I think that's when thing.
Probably when things started to fall into place, it's like, wait
a minute for using thinks well for my get these shadows and
blah, blah blah. So, it's very much, just a
process of like, you know, keep buying get different colors.
And once you got there and started understanding how colors
work and how away or, you know, you're not limited to sort of
like a primary colors to fill it comes to us all this exactly.
Yeah. But again you would you very
much limited to you know, who's around you and I think I mean
Stewart you said that you didn't have access to a workshop
nearby. Right.
So I was really lucky that initially my closest store was
Birmingham which is probably like, you know, it's like 35
minutes on the train but what was great was that Stewart
Willis work there and Stewart was you know he was never any
metal guy but he did a little stint there, didn't he?
And he was like a fucking awesome painter and So I was
lucky that I had that, you know, that I could go there and like
sort of worship at his altar a little bit and you know clean
what I could from it. But if you've got that then all
of a sudden Things become a lot easier just in terms of really
some leveling up and understanding what's going on in
it until this day like him and other guys, Richie gunsmiths of
least kind of store manager, pipe people that were actually
really good hobbyists and Painters and I still have like,
like massive respect for them. Yeah, I mean my closest always
brightening but that was that was still you are looking at a
couple of hours to get there. So it was it was a rare occasion
that I would I would never get there.
So yeah, I was I was pretty much practicing my hobby in isolation
most of the time. Yeah.
So what we'll see if you had like You know, so you studied
painting collecting Miniatures. What was the first miniature
first paint job where you kind of?
Felt like, we were something to click.
Now, this has gone from being, you know, you know what I mean,
when it goes from just being crowned, like weight on a kind
of getting this now, I think I did a, I did a Space Marine
Captain with with Blended highlights on on the, on the top
surfaces Edge and Edge, but you've now call Edge highlights.
And I mean, it probably would look horrendously crew by any
any real standard now. But I think that was my, that
was my moment where I can go, actually, I can I can get close
to what I'm seeing in the magazine with this.
What about you bizarrely enough? It was Terminator Space Marine.
Remember the stage by stage? Blood Angel captain.
That might be. Yeah.
And I remember I was up in Norwich was still there, but it
was called, but they literally used to unbox box sets and so
fingers individually. So I was up there, visiting my
grandmother bought that, you know, the Terminator captain.
And I sat at a dining room table with my Paints in the white
dwarf. Next to me and like English
Channel, a laborious Lee, followed everything that it was
telling me to do and he did it as well.
Yes, best thing I've ever painted and that was it.
I think once you've done that, because like Christ now there's,
you know, there's no stopping. It is literally having that
base. Skillset, you know, and it's one
thing reading, it will sing it. But the first time of actually
trying it and realizing it kind of works, and that's that
doesn't leashes The Floodgate, then you just, you know, no
bounds, right? I can do anything now.
Yeah, yeah. Was there a was there?
I know there was for me. But was there a particular set
of Miniatures or thing that made you want to go?
This is what I want to do. That's a good question.
I don't know, I don't know what we thought about the fact, I can
seem like when was the, what point that I go.
I want to be the other and having metal thing.
So, don't know. It was pretty early on, but
like, for me, I did do some gaming.
The gaming was always kind of secondary to The Minister's
themselves, but all I wanted to do is just paint, okay?
And, and I know this is like cheesy, but there's like, the
best analogy is, you know, if you read tolkien's, work, Lord
of the Rings, he talks about the dwarves and the fact that they
and their younger days, the Dwarfs.
Just like making stuff for the love of making it and they were
like making all this cool weapons and armor and every like
giving it away because they didn't care about its value.
They just all they wanted to do was make it and that was exactly
what paint toy soldiers are like that.
I would because you're in had limited access to figured you'd
only have one could afford, but if I knew other people had
things, I didn't have. I thought y'all peanut for you
because all I cared about was like, give me access to it, more
figures to paint, you know? I was just, yeah.
All I wanted to do was paint, paint paint, paint paint.
That was all I cared about, you know, and it was just so like
for whatever. I don't know why it is so
absorbing it was just so you know and of course there was the
whole thing of you wanted to improve and all the rest of it.
But it was more than that. It was just something that you
could just completely become Lost in.
You know what, why why I still don't to this day.
Know why, you know, painting appeals to some people.
There's four other game, you know there's plenty of Gamers
who for whom painting is just like a chore or they hate it or
whatever. Yeah.
Why is it that certain people just get that bug?
I don't know, you know. Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, it's a funny one. I think it yet to me, was
similar to what you're saying, is it was an outlet for my
creativity. I mean, you know, I've gone to
art college, I could draw a bit. And that sort of thing, I could
buy could paint a bit, but painting miniatures was a was a
real sort of proper outlet for my creativity.
And that's that I've got my really, yeah, that I found my,
my home there. Mmm.
Yes, it's so I can I can see exactly where you're coming
from. That idea that, yeah, this is
all I want to do is to just paint stuff and it was, you
know, you've every spare minute. Oh, I've got her.
Yeah, literally down, and finish off that, that bit on on him or
whatever. So, I mean, it was, it was like
so absorbing and they kind of took over.
I'd be thinking about painting when I wasn't painting.
If you still want to make it was just really.
I mean, that was the, it was the defining.
Single stop these days, it's called The Hobby.
But for me back then it was really just about, you know, the
Miniatures. And as I say gaming was kind of
like an appendage to that. Yeah.
Yeah, same here. Yeah yeah I played Precious few
games. Even when I was at college with
friends who are also into it, I still play very few games before
I before I joined Games Workshop, My focus was always
on. Yeah, just come the painted.
So how about that? I mean, I guess this sort of
speeding up the conversation alone a bit but like I remember
your tail Center or the golden demon winning piece and then
what within the six months to a year after that you were at the
studio, right? So yeah.
What was that? What's the story behind like you
won the golden demon winner. But then actually getting, you
know, applying for a job and getting in there and what was
what went on? Well, It's so long ago, I'm not
sure exactly that. What the timeline was I'd
entered. I'd entered a couple of years of
golden demons before and first year, I got nowhere second year,
I got to the got through the Heats and got to the final third
year. I got through and and one was
hold on a minute, that was 92, right?
Yeah, yeah. So maybe just for listeners as
well, and maybe for our benefit because We're all getting on.
So that was 92. You joined what 93 92 know.
I joined I was in Nottingham by the end of 92.
I think it was about October 92, something like that.
Okay, cool. It was in, but I've been sort of
pestering, that's the way, right?
So I sent some photos of my miniature Up to Mike McVeigh
before I sent some drawings up to see if I could get a job as
an artist, which was way pie in the sky.
And so I guess that by the time, it got round to Golden demon and
and I think they were at, I've got an idea that at that Year's
golden demon door games. Today they were actively
Scouting For for new painters, so I guess kind of my name was
already on the radar. I don't know, but that's how you
know that's what led to. I wonder the thing and I can't
remember whether I approached them saying, you know, here I am
again, this time I've won a golden demon or whether they
approached me and said you know would you like to come up?
If you, but that's what happened in the end, it was all very
quick after that. Hmm, okay.
So then that's like 92. I was Jim Kenney, rough country
of 94. Josh, when did you come along on
the should paint a river? I didn't have any models.
I know, I wasn't I painted like a couple of years and it was
terrible and like you guys are just standing around looking at
things just thinking, this is crap.
This guy, this guy is not a heavy metal that somehow I've
looked it and I think was a 95. Yeah, I think was 95.
Yeah, I'm just, yeah, really. You guys are desperate making ug
place a desperate. That's what it was.
I think we used to do. Rayvon.
I remember when we met Park's first joined and what was he
trying to paint? See the words I'm using trying
to pay. He was trying to pay this
laughs. You should try to paint these
mounted. Vampire lore and he just kept
messing up the red. And I was like, dude, you've won
a golden demon twice if you can't do, but I've read you
can't look at his room shopping but, you know, it's like
backpacks is a God now, right? It is literally one of the The
finest painters there ever will be, you know, but everyone got
their, their little share of being ribbed, you know, King
cyber was Richard Potter. I mean, he was pretty rough when
he joined. I remember there being a bit of
a kind of like how the hell's this guy he sort of got through
the door and he ended up being great to.
I think that was the other great thing about the other metal team
for all its faults sir. Really when you're doing that
stuff day in day out and surrounded by, you know, really
quite talented people. I'm just absorbing that, you
know, Very quickly, you know, you can't fail but to go through
the room, get you get real good real fast.
I mean, if you, if you look at the first thing that I did for
for every metal, which was a repaint of the the old.
It's a fantasy regiments factors you regiments.
Like they wanted to re-release them in the new bright colors.
I think one of each if you look at it it's actually there on the
there on the stuff of Ian's. Yep.
Site, he's got the photograph of the six that I did and they are
hideous. But I love those.
Early goblins and Orcs the big UNS and stuff like that, which
is maybe less than six months later that it's a Quantum Leap
and you just yeah, like Dave says, you, you're surrounded by
people who are highly talented and bouncing ideas off each
other and and and not just the figure painters, I mean, you
know, everybody in the studio because it was an open open plan
office. Buddy in the studio, used to
take note of what everybody else was doing.
So you get the sculptors pitching in.
You get the artist pitching in, everybody would go all, you
could do that. You could do this and you can't
help but really get quite good. Under those under those
circumstances. I mean, they were, there are a
couple of notable exceptions that didn't last very long,
because they didn't Didn't. Didn't develop on the hull.
Yeah, once you were in there, you you You know, you would very
quickly increase the in in standard.
Yeah, I think interestingly and then this is kind of going back,
a bit to that conversation around him at the
standardization and all the rest of it.
You know, that development of that kind of Workshop skull or
every necklace style. But I really felt that, you
know, you know, growing up with it and it obviously the key
player here they seem proud. We've mentioned Tim and so Dale
and Ivan or rest of it. But there was this Be cool, kind
of like that, was that Golden Era kind of thing going on?
And I think probably yourself and just prior to you with Neal
wasn't its O'Neill. And then yourself, I think you
guys Feliz. My point of view, you were the
lucky ones. You were right on the back, end
of that but you had some connection to that prior are and
good like Tim was still there. Yeah, whatever.
And there's like, Kev white and bla bla bla but by time I I got
there that had ended like it was over.
And like you know, you guys had some memory Of that or I can
remember Tim, I remember over but then by the time I got
there, it was really in that. And at least initially in that,
for me, that really kind of dire stage of heavy metal where they
were bright. Red thing was just becoming
ridiculous. And I remember the first thing
is, I painted with two ghosts. So awful figures Gary, Molly
ghosts. And, you know, I'll marry, you
know, he gives you the figures and I was thinking really yeah.
Gray, but he's like, do one red? And one blue, I'm like looked at
him thinking he was joking and he wasn't choking hazard.
Oh my God, you know, it's like is this really happening?
Yeah, but it was that bad. Yeah, that was, it was just a
low point. I think in miniature painting
where it was all, you know, almost it was apparent becoming
a parody of itself like the bright Reds and become so, so
much of a joke, you know. Yeah it was yeah there was a
whole period from so yes. They the 94-95 time when yeah.
It was definitely everything. Got it was that everything had
to have some red on it. I touched on this in one of the
questions that was that, that Josh sent us.
It was that was where they were. You, did you develop that?
Those colors or were you told to do those colors?
And it was, it was yes, everything had to have some red
on it, you know, whether it was good, a sphere hafthor, a gun
casing. I mean, even though the cat a
chance, yes, I can cut a chance. You know, I I've fought tooth
and nail to get these done in camo.
I wanted to do these in camo colors and It was, it was a hell
of a job, too. Get those with the camo trousers
on them and then it was like right now give them red
bandanas, I mean this is a strange thing now is that and
again it's amazing how things can become kind of cool.
You know, we thought, you know, this time passes but when you
get the jar stick the work you do on your stuff and you can get
me. I'm thinking also of I've gotten
got the guy in the Denmark's buttons.
Now she's so I'll come on, multi multi, golden demon.
Winner used to be a metal guy on Instagram.
He's many textures currently doing to our needs and stuff is
really cool, painter. God, oh, no,
Follow. But make it look good either,
that's interesting, but at the time when it, you know, is
literally like, oh, he's a higher for him cause he's got a
bright red sphere. So really, it was pretty, you
know, if it's always trying as well because I think no one's
felt that, that was right, none of the paint has agreed with it
and other designers like to know the artist liked it, but it was
just, that was the way things were at the time.
I mean, you know, thankfully, we came out of that but it was a
good couple of years of dust. You know, people kind of bearing
that. Yeah I mean you were I think
were pretty much one of the ones that really pushed for
forgetting. A more realistic style.
Yeah, I can remember the arguments over black, undercoat
yeah. Yeah, yeah.
You definitely were one of the ones that was pushing for.
Getting away from these bright primary colors on everything and
it was it was good that we finally got past that.
Yeah I mean I think for me that was because I had that slight
not necessarily an interest at least of knowledge of like
historical gaming and at the time I was very much you know I
was really interested in what with the Perry twins are doing
and stuff. So I was seeing like people are
producing really great Miniatures.
Over black, undergirds you can do realistic.
Looking color schemes and still look awesome.
And it doesn't have to be dirty and brown if you know what I
mean, you know and then you know got even Mike's like paint
because there was like a feeling that
when painting go back, go back. Being some of the most
sophisticated. Again, just a bit more refined
and I think, you know, we did it, we started to do it.
And then God, I mean again I'm jumping all over but remember
how golden demon is really got to the point where it was just a
joke. Like there was one particular
year where some really crappy high of one.
And it was, it was a bit of a scandal within the company
because it was apparently basically chosen by the sales
team because they were like, we need to sell more piles and his
piece-of-shit, won the golden demon and then the following
year, Thank God, the company went like, wait a minute, and
that was when Mike instigated the, what was it called?
Nina. The Masters sing or whatever it
was. And he emailed out or not even
sent letters out to, like, all the old painters that you had
any contact deal to us for saying, look, we're really
trying to revive painting. Let's try and get golden demon
back to what it used to be. And that really, was the, the
turning point. I think of, like, wait on, let's
bring painting back as something worthwhile with in the hobby
because it really been denigrated.
You know, for a good two or three years, you know, and we
were unfortunate to have sort of been there.
I think this is the worst. This is something that would
probably be a hell of a shock to Modern fans but Amongst the
studio figure painting was seen, as we were entry-level.
We were, you know, we were the sort of One Step Above People
making the coffee. You know that was it was it was
seen as anybody can do it for a long time.
There was that attitude that that you know all it is is to
understand to make the boxes look good.
And it wasn't until a bit earlier pre our period.
Like Dave says, the time when you had the all the individual
painters with their individual Styles, it was seen, it was
given a bit more respect and then after later on in the later
90s and going forward, it was given a little bit more respect.
We happen to be there during the bit where it was just like look
you just paint. Stuff.
Shut up and get on with it. Then what was it?
Like bit of that attitude to it. But do you remember Stewart was
like I've recently started sorry go ahead.
I'm just going to say just one night guys were just going to
tape it tape. It take a quick break, have a
quick refreshment and this conversation is definitely not
over. We'll be back in just a moment.
Okay, so we're back after a little tea break.
So guys, where did we leave off? Something about red?
You mentioned a lot about Reds with red coats and
what-have-you. Yeah.
So it's been very, very interesting though.
Been bit of a really good insight into what's, what, you
know, the mindset of the painters and that kind of thing.
Because like, as much as I love the red period of that time,
that's that was my time when I got into the hobby.
But I, you know, I got into like, you know, Third Edition
and that kind of stuff and obviously, Was a massive change
in our Direction and painting style and figure direction that
kind of stuff. Which do you like, which do you
guys prefer? Do you prefer the sort of the
more 80s rule, sort of, you know, very dirty gritty style to
what hammer or did you prefer? Well, I guess I know your answer
but do you prefer them sort of 90s?
You know, the red golden age of Games, Workshop.
Stewart, it's kind of a mixture for me.
I mean, I'm always going to have a soft spot for the the That
period because it was a, you know, a time of my life and what
have you? But as far as styles of painting
that I like, I like to have a mix of it.
You know, there is space for the strong bright colors when
they're used with natural tones as well as or to offset and you
know I like yeah I'm a sort of a bit of a magpie with it.
I couldn't really I mean, I love looking at the pictures of the
old stuff I've got, I've literally above my monitor here.
I've got the heavy metal poster from white dwarf, 100 right by
my wall and I love looking at all that old stuff.
Yeah, but I'll you know similarly I like what I like to
what we were doing for four large part of it and I like the
stuff that has come since and I think Think what the heavy metal
team have got? Now, is that balance between
strong primary colors, bright colors, and a bit of a bit of
realism in there as well. So you've, you know, they've got
that nice balance going on, just what I like.
I'm also a question to. Yeah, you know, I was under that
was under the impression. Mike, big.
They had sort of started that kind of, you know, His style was
very unique, very clean crisp, beautiful bright colors.
I thought it was his sort of influence that sort of changed
the way that, you know, the art Direction went and in regards to
the model colors and that kind of thing.
But the color palette basically was is that the case or was it
more of a more of an art Direction?
Kind of definitely wasn't the case.
This wasn't the case. Okay.
So basically like and against you like, You were there prior
to me. So you might have a different
take on this, but if you really look at the first thing you have
to do, is look at Mike's work. Okay.
So you had the great clean style, amazing blending, you
know that the thing that became the workshop in stuck in how
style came from Mike but what he was doing, was always awesome.
They were beautiful they were really well-balanced punjab's
great Miniatures, the way he was using quite clean.
Bright colors was not that bright red spear stops and heil.
Shit that we ended up with okay that came from elsewhere, which
was basically someone taking what their understanding of what
my could done and laying that out as law, okay?
But they didn't quite understand how it worked and it you know,
you look at what Mike was doing and then what that especially
that really poor period of heavy metal, where was blatantly this
rubbish and so they bear no relation whatsoever.
But somehow it became I understood that all this.
I mean it was derivative from what my could come up with but
that wasn't what my could set out to do.
That wasn't what? He's paying jobs look like,
okay? They're very different.
Now, there's also this this. this came up in a conversation,
I was having with somebody not so long ago that The everything
everything that was painting was, was Mike's.
You know, when, when I've, you know, old pictures of Miniatures
pop up on Twitter and Facebook and I go, oh, that's great.
I pay you that because I love it when that happens.
It's just like. Yeah, I paid it that people oh
really, I've actually had people just what I thought might be
evaded, all the painting it was There was, there was that little
bit of Legend, the sort of spiraled into the, the I think
the idea of what Dave's talking about that, I mean, no doubt
about it. Mike's painting style was a huge
huge, probably the biggest influence on the heavy metal
style, but it wasn't Purely his work that that set it all in
motion. Yeah.
Okay. That's very interesting
reflection there. Yeah, and Mike's my external
style sort of changed a little bit to, I saw more recently, he
painted up some sort of modern order like a dark Reaper or
something like that. I don't know.
It's quite a few years ago now, but I think he I think he moved
to the US and he worked for maybe the company that was I
think was the coaster something doing Dandy kind of stuff.
Yeah we're seeing Privateer Press I read some amazing
painter. I can't remember her name, but,
wow, she was just phenomenal. The stuff that she was painting.
This is incredible, because we did amazing thing is when he met
her. I remember her.
Well, she's never seen a toy soldier in my life.
He lived really started painting.
Yeah, after meeting Mike. Wow, when yeah, so that just
goes to prove, you know, you don't need that long, you know?
So well, she's late, she's incredible paintings.
I mean, by the timeline by the time that At.
What's up 94? 95?
Mike had moved away from even being being in the heavy metal
team? Yeah, it was, wasn't it?
He was doing his books, he was a thing unto himself, the painting
guides, which we all contributed to You know, again that that was
it was his project and he did most of the work on them but all
the all the painters contributed to them.
But yeah, he was by the time that mean Dave were properly
settled in there. He was more or less.
A separate entity of his own when he won his books and the
the big conversion pieces that he was doing well, that was your
thing. Wasn't it Stewart.
I mean, I think and this probably happens to almost every
painter in the heavy metal team. They get, there's some project,
whether it's an army Burke or whatever or a new game release
that happens to be their kind of, you know, they're coming out
kind of thing. All their graduation party and I
think for you, Stuart you had to was the You know, you got that
conversion book, where basically my cost you to paint up all
these conversions. And also was Warhammer Quest and
you basically, you know, because the Plastics were pretty good
back there right now compared to the way it was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was like, your thing
and you did it. Yeah.
But that was like totally, you know, if there's like a high
point in the street too much, painting career for me, it was a
lie. That was it.
You were just like I'm going to get right?
The rules here, you know? Yeah.
Absolutely. That was my thing I do.
Yeah, I can distinctly remember the time of the thinking at that
time is exactly what you said. I wanted to make these Plastics
that were yeah for the time they were good, these days.
They look awfully primitive. Yeah.
I wanted to make them look As good as the metal figures.
Yeah. That was yeah.
That was definitely my thing. Yours was demons.
I think Dave wasn't it. It's yeah, I guess the great
unclean. One was probably my thing but
you know, when I eventually got my shot at running the team, Um
I was lucky that it coincided with the second round of High
Elves you know. It would have been the high up
the second higher for me but and so you know my I did my tub sort
of thumping and like we're going to do a new high Elf Army and
this going to have brown spacecrafts there's not gonna be
any red on it and luckily you know to be fair you know it was
250 and Allen at the time and they kind of let us run with it.
I'm pretty sure they weren't 100% sure it was going to work
but it looks Basically, it ends up looking great, and I still
see on Facebook to this day. People talk about that that are
me like, wow, it looks awesome because it really worked.
It was like, it's still a white higher farming but, you know, he
sort of like, red and yellow and all the rest of it.
It was like, turquoise and blue and wouldn't species.
Probably it worked great. And from that point on, there
was a big shift towards. Let's, we know, we can get away
with doing more kind of realistic natural colors, but
without it having to go to, you know, that kind of Which I think
is not true anyway but that whole kind of all dirty dark.
You know, the people taught what hemisphere was about.
So I think there was that so for me that was kind of high point
where I'd like proved a point but we can do this.
And then in terms of a, an actual individual figure, I
think it was that great and clean one, which I did take,
like, six weeks to cut him up or something, where it's kind of
reading the Lord of the Rings. And so, are you always do?
Stuart, what was it? What do you think was your?
I think. Yeah, if it's an individual
figure I think possibly either the the Gorka morka or qual boss
that nobody ever saw. Hmm.
Which was the the one that they based a recent plastic on, I've
got to be all right. This guy, right?
Never see this. This this one.
That's the reason that's the one.
Yeah. Yeah.
So this is proper I know socks. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
That was a games day one. So it never actually appeared.
I don't think a photograph of it ever actually appeared in white
dwarf or the, the grow-op red Gobo.
That was a big favorite of mine and I really enjoyed doing, but
I think that I think, I think the single thing that Most proud
of is that page of wizards plastic resin Plastics, right?
Yeah, the they were, they were part of the Talisman.
That's right releases, but they did bait.
They start one on the cover. They stuck a free one on the
cover and put the whole lot because I think I think it was
originally found that they were going to make a game just to be
sort of wizard combat game for them and then they at that got
abandoned and they got subsumed into In to tell as models for
another, there was a lot of projects that went like that.
But yeah, I think that's probably the page the one page
that I'm most proud of. Yeah.
Yeah we're classic - hmm. I think you know, we've talked
about the various people over the years, I'm on the team but
for you Stuart like you know you have a couple of Have you met
the law to see what? Like your your favorites or, you
know whether it was, you know, that you like their work or that
particularly like the way they did things or hold Mueller.
Yeah. Paul Miller and for his way he
used color. Yeah, he would use some weird
and wonderful ways of shading. You know, his shading of his
flesh wasn't shaded with brown. It was shady with blue.
It was something that's what it was.
Yeah, it really was. He just sit there?
And every so often you look over and go, what the hell is that?
And go and I mean there's there's some of the Dark Elves
that he did and the kind of chaos stuff that he did.
Those just got some incredible color shifts on it.
He just threw throw everything at it but him and torben.
Yeah, until one was Bulldog. Yeah, Evans clean, beautiful.
He was the epitome of The heavy metal style as it was, then
everything was crisp and yeah, it was you're like and perfect
and I agree I'd say I like is bizarre because torben Summer in
a way he took it to a different level and it was very much until
band style. But he ended up with he was so
clean. Remember he had that really
beautiful. Waxy smooth finish em.
Everything just looks so smooth, but he would literally take
weeks to paint. This is Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember like he was paying my house.
I have Cavalry of some sort of come up, you know?
I guess they were like the second round of the silver
helmet or something remember, Simon Tiff being like look we
need the Box done. Like he's painted one figure and
he's been on it two weeks. I'm not look Simon yeah but it's
going to be the best box cover you've ever had.
Just wait, you know? And they were they were they
were beautiful. They they just glowed right.
There was so good. You know why he put put
dishwashing liquid in his inks. Yeah, but I think and you guys,
I think Paul and and tolling would just incredible painters.
They had but amazing Styles and torment, especially could just
like you say he could paint something and just it would
just, you know, illuminate light.
I don't know how he did it. I think the he told me about
this technique of using dishwashing liquid and these
inks, and that kind of thing, I thought, okay, I'll give them.
He used to yeah he used to use layers.
I mean with it was something that that was a common practice
of layering on these glazes. I mean, I John Blanche, John
Blanche first told me about it as a technique that the Old
Masters of Rembrandt Sarah used to use, but The tubing just took
it to another level. I mean, you know, his figures
would have 20 or 30 layers of glazes on them and they just
they just Sean. Yeah, credible.
An amazing guy. But like beautiful guy to like
the best local only woman. Yeah, yeah, I used to when we
moved over to the new site, we used to go down to the the staff
gym together and it could throw a hell of a lot of weight
around. Yeah, lovely bloke.
Really, really nice guy. That was the thing that I mean,
it's something about the working environment there.
There was a lot of really nice people.
A lot of, you know, you I made friends for life there.
You know people that, you know, when I left not Him back in 2001
for various reasons. I dropped off the radar just
dropped out of contact with with everybody and then sort of like
about 10 years ago and got popped my head back above the
surface and people that hadn't spoken to you for 10 years.
Like oh yeah, you know, just sort of as if no time had gone
past. We we made these friendships
there amongst amongst All these people, it was it was a
fantastic environment to work with.
We all these great creative people, you know?
It wonderful man. That's great.
Now let's talk about things you didn't like to paint during your
time at the studio. Any any particular range of
models or systems that you just hated?
I think f equals one of them with it.
Okay, I know, I know there's lots of fans of Man O'War out
there again, I'm sure I never actually played a great game but
I really hated painting those figures and they they weren't
in. I couldn't get em inspired by
them or epic. I like doing the Titans in that.
But but yeah, I could never really get hugely inspired by
the micro scale stuff. Great fun for, for war, James
painting. But seriously, I had to paint
three. I think it was three beIN blades
or Shadow swords or something metal ones in camo patterns
with, you know, using blending techniques and stuff like that
on them. And it was just so God, no might
know me, it doesn't end. Who is the most?
Who was the? Who's the biggest character
amongst the AV middle team? Who was the, who was the
jokester? Stuart Thomas.
Sadly, still you left. By the time I got there might.
So I wasn't I wasn't blessed in your presence in the, in the
student team. So there was.
Yeah, you're horribly. They've will be lucky then What
about Kim because like, you know, see, Kim was like a, he
was a quiet one, but he was like a fucking matter, right?
Wasn't it an alcoholic? You tell me who's an alcoholic
or something? Yeah, something going on right
now. Yeah, I think it was full of
full of characters. And everybody was taught Mark
Jones up Jones, man. Mark Jones had a jar of Scotch
bonnet pickles on his desk jar of pickles.
The jar and chilies that you had on his desk.
You remember? That will kkkh this jar of
Scotch bonnet chilies on his desk, and he would just dip into
them and Munch away. I mean, these things are, these
are these, these kill people, and he would just sit there
munching away at them, not being around to big whoop.
It's funny. You should mention mark because
I mean I think he's like a in many ways.
Kind of like an underrated member of the team because he
became he became you know he ended up being a very proficient
painter but he had this really kind of, I don't mean this in a
bad way but he had this quite dull style where it was just,
you know, he was doing what it meant to do, you know, very
naturalistic re-clean, right? Naturalistic photograph great,
but it was neither here or there.
It wasn't especially towards the end of the period when we were
all doing what we do. It was a time when everyone was
starting to like, push boundaries a bit.
We're like, oh, we're going to be back on the coast and we're
going to put, Mark just sort of stayed the course and this big
neat entirely, but you know what effect is still?
There is nothing like, you know, marks the one that lasted the
longest. I believe, he, I believe he is.
Yeah. I mean, he moved over onto the
scenery so I, yeah, quite yeah. Let me know.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. but yeah, there was definitely a lot of a
lot of characters some folks that lat All right, guys, what's
let's get into some questions from our disco team because they
were very excited. And this is the biggest response
of ever had, to any guests coming onto the show.
So that's, that's really wonderful.
And so that's been great. So, Arch Stanton asks, what
brushes do you guys use? I don't know whether he means,
like back in the day, or now, or whatever.
But, back in the day was Workshop.
In the studio, we would have been Workshop there freak, you
know, Mike, this is that's true. This is actually, this is quite
good point because this is something that comes up on the
interwebs, quite a lot, is you see these people who go, all the
heavy metal team, they never even use.
Citadel payments we did. Yeah, we absolutely do one they
were free. We could get as we, we could get
as much as much as we could drink.
To there wasn't really anything else around at the time in the
fifth that was usable for for painting figures.
The only thing that we did do was things like Winsor & Newton
inks which we turned into the increase, the Vibrance here, the
colors, or for glazes, and stuff like that.
And it was the same with brushes we used Citadel Devon, Windsor
Newton, serious Evans, and Look back, you know.
Yeah. That's what I use.
All the time. Now, sit with the engine
Newtons, I've tried others, and I know there's, there's people
all over the place will go. Oh, they're not what they used
to be, but I've never had a bad one.
In 30 years of painting figures. I've never had a bad one.
Don't see why that should change.
Yep, that's good, man. Yeah, princeps Thomas's.
What's your favorite cheese? Great.
Bz U sophisticated w53 or Somerset break.
Fuck, I never had Somerset Brie mate, I'll give it a go it's
lovely. It's a bit smoother than French
Brie but I'm a cheddar man. I'm a Somerset lad.
I'm Somerset loud, born and bred so it's got to be cheddar.
Okay, well I stay Stanton is back again.
What do you think of the older more vibrant Styles?
Opposed the Grim darks star properly?
Now, Come on. To understand because it's like,
well, you know, originally there was this dark gray even though
brown-style. Then there was the bright style,
then there was like something else.
And now actually I think every met the got the painting and
this is something we've not talked about yet, but the
reality is, heavy metal now is fucking amazing.
Okay, the stuff those guys do is just incredible and it's
actually, you know, then you know, they're not doing like
bright red anymore. They didn't this really cool
realistic. Let's games with another level
of painting, which is beyond me likes, can't even comprehend how
they do it. So I'm kind of like their head
and shoulders above us. Yeah.
It's like you know, how, how are
they doing it? And that's really don't even
know. But of course, now we're old,
our eyes don't even work properly but I think they it's
gone beyond that. Grimdark thing for me.
Now when I look online and stuff on Facebook, whatever grimdark
has become almost. That blanket is to thing, where,
guys are trying to emulate What drum Bunch used to do, and I
just found this question little hard to answer because of kind
of its kind of move beyond that has on it.
Like the Mainstay of the mainstream style, now is
actually a really great quite realistic style.
You may not be Grim dark but brimmed up was grimdark even
ever a thing. You know.
Look that's just it. I mean there never was a grim
dark period with with every metal.
I mean, the Locust is to comes to, is that the late 90s early
2000s, where everything was really a lot more naturalistic
this, the, the new grimdark like like Dave says, that comes a lot
from The blanche's Who stuff, which is in itself, a more
recent development of John's style because, you know, if you
look at, if you look back at John Black, To stuff in the late
80s. Early 90s, you know, he was he
was doing clean strong colors, you know, he there was a lot of
stuff of his that was was sort of grim, dark kind of thing, but
The his style has moved on into this really, manky really heavy
heavily shaded style, and the, the sort of modern.
Grimdark aesthetic has sort of taken that and run with it.
And there's some amazing stuff being the thing that output
being done in that style, but equally there's some amazing
stuff being done in the sort of Heavy metal style and the more
sort of how do you describe them off a sort of fantasy art style
with the the really heavily airbrushed stuff that's the sort
of a spinoff from the larger scale kits and all that sort of
thing. You know, there's there's lots
of different styles around at the moment these days and they
will, you know, there's been is amazing stuff being done in all
of them I think actually Stuart that's like so So important and
such a great thing that back when we were there and again, it
was prior to the internet, all the rest of it in a lot of ways.
It was a very sort of clothes and Limited hobby and a very in
terms of fingerprinting, quite Limited in terms of expression.
Where's now like, literally, you know, you can do whatever that.
There's so many outlets, but, you know, you can go in any
direction you want. There's so many different places
you can go for inspiration. There's people doing all kinds.
Kinds of different stuff in terms of Style and what they
used, you know, to paint and all the rest of it means it's
amazing now. But when I look at what is out
there, now based on what we had discussed, oh my God, it must be
awesome, right? You know to be you, you imagine
being somewhat in your teens all over again and getting into it
now. Yes.
Yeah. It's amazing.
Right? Yeah, everything is so far
Advanced from from when we were not just when we were getting
into it as as teenagers. But when we were involved in it
as Adams, you know, the quality of the painter to improve the
quality of this, the Miniatures has improved.
The, I mean, the plastic figures that are coming out these days
as a head and shoulders over anything.
In that we could have dreamed of back in the day, you know, and
everything has gone up a level many, many levels and it's
incredible to see what's out there.
You know, it's it's like trying to imagine what what it must be
like. Now as a teenager growing up
with the internet when you know we grew up before anything I've
had came along. Yeah.
It's just so far removed from from our way of thinking and and
that the hobby that the hobby, as it is, now is so far.
Away from what it was when we were kicking around in it.
Yeah, I mean, so that point I mean, What is your sort of
Journey in terms of either dropping out or not dropping out
and coming back into the hobby, or whatever?
Because, I mean, personally, I went through traffic when.
But, you know, I basically dropped out of the hobby I
stopped paying attention and it was probably about four or five
years ago maybe four that I started seeing, you know, online
or well Facebook, whatever Instagram like the new
Miniatures. And I was just like, what the
fuck? That's a miniature, you know,
I'm trying to think of examples. It is like a it was like a dark
elf character where it's like, you know, she's got the snake
body and blah, blah blah. What is that?
Like that's a minute they've done that and really I just I
have not been looking so I didn't I was unaware of the
progression in quality and what they could literally do in terms
of, you know, Plastics and restaurant.
And I was just like, oh my God. And then, you know, and even the
primary Marines, I was totally unaware, then one day on
Instagram, I saw like a promise ring.
I saw someone convert Hill Academy pads, that's cool.
Convert. I looked on the side, you know,
after all those years, all of a sudden, I found myself just like
you know, on the site every day like oh I want to buy that I
want to like this, but what am I doing?
I sold over 20 years ago. How was that for used to it?
Did you uh did you ever drop out?
Or you just call for me in there or no, I do pretty much to say
why I dropped out around when I finally left Games Workshop
around, think it was Late 2000, early 2001.
And yeah, I'd go. I'd lost her shit going on
personal shit going on. So I dropped out of it
completely and I tried a couple of failed attempts to to get
back into it on a professional level and that didn't didn't
work out at all. Well, so yeah, I dropped out of
it until about I think it was things about 2009 2010.
One of the I think it was the one of the Warhammer box, sets
the dwarfs and Goblins army bought 6th edition box 6 Edition
because yeah, that will sculpt I saw that and I was saying was
you that I was looking at the figures and it was just the the
just the rank-and-file night. God being single single piece.
And they were just, I don't, I thought back to the, the Third
Edition ones with a Spears at like that and I thought, my God,
this is so far removed from then, and these are just the
rank-and-file basic figures and it.
Yeah, from yeah. I just got sucked straight back
into it. It didn't take long.
Yeah, I mean, I seen it. I'm now I'm sitting here
surrounded by boxes of crap. It happens when it happens.
Well, I wish you'd catch myself. Free was supposed to clear that
the Warhammer 40K indomita saying, I ended up like, paying
through the nose on eBay for that?
No matter what am I doing? Like how did I end up going back
down? This fucking Rabbit Hole here.
Oh yeah, definitely. And these days I'm playing games
with guys. I've every couple of weeks.
I mean, I was some guys, we do some painting together.
Other once a week I go and play D&D.
And yeah I've been I've been such right down the rabbit hole
because it's just little Tufts of Tufts of hair.
Sticking out around the rabbit hole with or I was pulled down
here. It's wonderful man.
That's great. Yeah, no, I know Dave's trying
to get back into gaming like he's still historical stuff.
He's trying to get me into Saga now.
So many times as you can. Yeah, but the big thing in the
100, of course, go ahead. So on the shelf behind me here,
you see that? Yes, that's my first ever full
40K Army since Rogue Trader. Since my, my Elder Army and
that's very Green from where I'm sitting here Stuart.
So I don't know how much of its, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It'll be like plague Marines or something.
Yeah, Google it is painted, some of it.
It'll have to see it. There's a very is there is see.
See some of it is painted a painting.
Well done. Good on you guys.
Do you guys have to wrap up again for another break if you
want to continue? Let's, let's take a quick break
and let's come back for the final episode or final part of
our wonderful discussion this evening.
Oh, catch you again after this break?
All right. A bit of a tea break again.
So we're back. So guys, where did we leave off?
Are we talking about Dave? Let's do it.
Totally remember being away from and getting back into the hobby
I think. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I mean you want to fight you got
any more questions from the from the Hat though actually in one
of the guys asked, it was a good question.
So I think we've answered some of them during a conversation
this evening but The guy said, what was the?
What was the best project you worked?
As an Army in the studio, it was it looking at whether it be 40K,
fantasy epic, or whatever or not.
Epic not Manowar. I won't torture.
You there Stewart here which I'm going to do really well you're
really pleased. I think maybe Dave really like
the britannians from memory was a High Elves biology.
Yeah. Yeah.
Hmm. Armies, everybody pitched in a
little bit here and a little bit.
There. The catch hands were mostly my
thing. Hmm.
Really quite like quick real others, like doing them because
that was that was from the ground up kind of thing.
And I think it's always good fun to be able to to Go right.
From the, from the beginning on something like that.
I liked working on the and the, this fourth edition Undead know.
I was quite profound. Although these days, I wouldn't
do them in those sort colors. The colors made the colors
Bryant. Yeah, I think that really makes
that Army. I think if it had any other way,
it would it would look as good as I like, it still makes a
really good point. They're actually a lot of, you
know, especially boom. When we were there, a lot of
Miniatures and a lot of ranges, it was still derivative, you
know, you like, okay, we doing a new one book.
We're doing a new range but actually we can remember the
previous set of figures and previously, the paint jobs and
you have very much informed by that and and rightly.
So, you know, and I love you, I guess wants to emulate.
But for example, like the cat a chance when I came along that
was brand new. When Stewart's given the cutter
Jones. Hope that didn't exist.
No one else has ever painted them.
There's nothing to look back on. There's no, that's right.
There's nothing to inform, so that that's truly interesting
when and of course, nowadays, mr.
Comes out all the time, but back then, it was pretty rare that
they would be like something brand-new, you know?
And I remember. Stewart you do you remember?
You were like really like I want this like really dirty skin
tones and I want them to look like they're in the jungle and
yeah and at that time that kind of thinking Everyone's just so
wrong. How's that going to work?
Hmm you did it. Yeah.
How are you going to make them look bright and stand out on the
box cover? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's I mean okay comparing it to what I understand of the heavy
metal team now. I mean they're working two or
three years in advance on projects and they have type.
I was a couple of years ago. I was at War Hammer Fest
watching one of the Q&A sessions and they they get a project, you
know. The new High Elves, whatever
they're called, and they start a project and they sit down and
they have all the Miniatures there and they all sit down and
work out who's going to paint work.
And and you know what color schemes and they you know, each
treated like an individual project.
We got take that by tomorrow cause it's for next.
Month's white dwarf. Yeah.
Talisman came out with them. Little Wayne England postage
stamp-sized illustrations on all the cards because the figures
didn't exist. Well the figures that are on the
back of the box are gray. Sprayed metal figures because we
didn't have the Plastics in time for Repro in the artwork.
So what is quicker for Wayne to do some pictures?
Some drawings that they could photograph a stick in place,
then it, you know, we just didn't have the Miniatures in
time these days, they're two or three years ahead of it and they
can plan things which we we would see about pants, always?
Yeah. Let's We were lucky, if we got
Miniatures 2 months ahead of release.
Yeah. Okay.
Very good insight to you this. Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't
know that, you know what I mean? That have absolutely no idea and
this is kind of a nice little doorway into the workings of the
studio back in those days and maybe in contrast to what people
are doing now. I wonder how what the pay levels
like for painters in that nowadays, whether that's going
up a lot, you know, because it's pretty bad back then wasn't I
mean I was yeah, I totally get paper than we did.
Yeah. Portable painter was getting
paid less than I was. I entered in from a store level
when I joined the studio so they said they'll pay me the same
same amount of money, same wages as I was during this in the
store. Torben was getting paid less
than me and the poor bugger didn't even have a bed to sleep
on. I think I'll sleep on the
mattress on the floor or something like that.
I think Illuminating like the fact that you know, Yeah.
Surely a studio position is slightly elevated beyond the
like a, you know, a retail? Yeah.
Basically if you think so, you
think so? You think so?
What kind of people who work there still but even top I said,
yeah, it's not like correct. It was the wages for figure
painters, I don't think we, I mean, for me, it was my first
proper job, you know, I went to college left College joined
Games Workshop at 19, but even then, even then I knew that the
wages of crap. Yeah.
You know, wasn't getting much more than I'd been getting for
stacking shelves in a supermarket while I was
financing the way through college, you know.
So yeah I hope I hope these days they get paid better because we
didn't do it for the money. We did it for the love of the
Hobby and and stuff which is slightly exploiting wasn't it
and the free white dwarf every month.
Yeah I mean we love but we did it right?
And yeah there was a reason we did loved it.
It was awesome. I mean it was because it was go
toward thank you. No no I was gonna say like yeah,
20 years ago, if you'd asked me I would have probably still had
enough file and bitter in me like give you a completely
different run. Well, it looking back.
It's like, come on it. What an awesome experience.
It was a complete blast. We acted like complete lunatics
and got away with it, you know how, no employer on Earth, which
let people act. Like we actually, I was drunk
constantly, even while I was at work, we go to the go to the
park. We go to the trip to Jerusalem,
1:00 for a pint at lunch, and have four pints and Swagger back
to the studio. Barely able to think, Jason, we
all get we were, we were. Yeah.
It was a royal. I mean, yes, the wages were
shit. Yes, occasionally, the
management were heavy-handed. But most of the time, it was
good fun. The whole thing that I can't
look back on it as anything, anything of a bad experience.
Yeah, that's good. That's right.
It was a rock and rolling in its way, but I think we wanted it to
be that, especially that those of us, who would come up with
easily growing up with like, you know, John John Blanche being,
you know, The kind of idle or whatever.
That's what we wanted. We thought that's what we were
part of. That's what we want to admit me.
Oh, my, I'm sure Stewart. Remember this, but my memory is
doing is like games, Danger, on blocks.
Let's try going around a golden, demon games.
They would like a bottle of Jack Daniels neat and okay, he was
shit-faced but we grew up with that like, John Blanche was
like, literally secondary only to Axl Rose, you know, it's
like, you know, We thought that's what we were.
Grabbing heard by Games Workshop.
Now I get to be like I'm lunching.
So that's where you kind of felt you were entering into course
you get a rude awakening. Once you realize it's not quite
how it's going to work, but I mean you know we did have like
so you spent six weeks painting the golden great demon while you
were sat reading reading The Hobbit.
We we got away with so much. Yeah.
Okay. So Sometime, we had to knuckle
down and actually get some work done.
But to say it was, it was a lot of fun and we met awesome people
as well, but yeah, amount of people that came to that studio
here. He can't even remember the names
now, right? But so many especially back,
then when we were lucky that, that was a boom time, when
remembered the company was opening all these different
offices in various countries. They having, you know, these new
Guys from Italy and he goes from lower.
So we've been meeting all these like new people that we're going
to spearhead the Hobby and all these new markets.
And it was a really interesting time where, you know, a lot of
really like fired up and exciting people.
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, There was lots of
stuff to get involved with as well because you know, a new
game was being developed. So we'd all we'd all get
involved with the play play testing of it, you know,
everybody in the studio had a blood Bowl team.
Everybody in the studio, had a girl, come Orchid gang or a
necromancer gang. You know I lived with Mark Jones
Cal Brown, who was on the Production side of things at the
time. And we had a, we had a little
Little Neck cream under campaign going, in our living room, you
know what happened? What happened?
What's he doing? Carl is running his own games
company. I believe.
Oh wow. I can't remember off the top of
my head but I'll look, I'll dig out a link and send it to you.
He's, yeah, he's doing all right.
Yeah, I mean, you know, all these people that that we got to
know over the years. And it was it yeah it was a
great environment to work in so much so much creativity, so much
lunacy, and they both go hand in hand.
That's wonderful. Who was the biggest pleasure to
work with the studio? Do you think it was the biggest
influence our or who was the? I don't know the guy that that
was your mentor. That's good.
That's really difficult. That's really difficult.
I mean, you know good though? No, no.
I'll let you go first. My
advice on painting by people, like, John and Mike.
They and, and other people too rich, right?
Everybody knows, everybody. Yeah.
My fantastic artist and illustrator these places digital
artist is an incredible figure painter.
Yeah. Probably the maze.
He's incredible. Yeah.
Journals that has a lot of Richard's work on it.
A lot of the Elder that I thought might painted he did.
It was just incredible. Like, it's just stunning.
Yeah, but he was not the glazed. I gotta remember asking my
client. How did Richard do that?
And he was exactly like Tobin, you know, like Mike said, like
he would just like, be like 30 layers of glazing.
Even having the patience to do that, it's mind-boggling.
Yeah. So it was because it was such a
creative environment and you know, the inspiration came from
all sides. I think like, yeah, for me it's
it's a Stewart say that. It's a super difficult question.
Like you you were going to lose all some people, right?
But I would say on a, you know, one is a personal level thing,
most Gary morally, likey, I don't know, you know, he gets a
lot of flack for these Miniatures, but there was a time
when they he was making pretty cool figures, I think he was, he
was a great guy and he was, you know, he was doing cool stuff
and, you know, he was very helpful to me, as I was like,
literally a teenager and Gary was like a very You know,
influential on the good way kind of guy like he was there, you
know, he had view on life and all the rest of it is all good
and then, but and then second of course, Jesse like how can you?
And I know a lot of people will seem like the obvious answer
because Jeff Goodwin but like, yeah, like literally, you know,
the best miniature sculptor on a, you know, the best Concepts
on Earth, anything used to go used to go into his office and
if you need here just to see What he was doing and thinking
and just incredible you know like how can you not be
motivated by that or inspired by that you know you know?
Yeah, just standing there flipping through his flipping
through his first books, just insane.
What the sketch books were just really, I mean, especially for
you, I mean, I was just a figure Place Stewart can actually draw
as well, so for someone like used to it, but you could
appreciate what that means. Like, Tell me just like
literally page after page of the stick.
Incredible sketches and drawings.
It's just yeah, but mind-boggling Yes, it was people
like him that hood. And again, jump, marches.
Another one, I know his, his style is not to everybody's
taste, but I mean, He's had so much influence, Jesuits had so
much influence these creatives. These people who've been there
for a thousand years or more doing all this stuff that
everybody else has has sort of taken off and run with it in
different directions. And these guys were around all
the time. And if you wanted to say, what
do you think of this? You could go up to somebody like
that and go. What do you think of this?
How do you? This is going to work and they
would tell, you know, sometimes they tell you that you were
being an idiot and what you were doing, wouldn't work.
But most of the time it was incredible advice from from
these people that not only were extremely talented, but they
were the ones who have been there from the start, you know,
knew more about it than everybody else.
But together, I think that, yeah, I would even even today,
actually, still I would Posit that like one of the really
important things is that, you know, so many people have come
and gone over the, what, for decades or whatever is there a
workshop? Yeah, but it's really telling
that, you know, Jess Ali, you know, Dave Andrews twins have
gone now but they were there for a long time but, you know,
there's a certain key people who really were just there to the
whole thing. Hmm, and yeah, you know, really
a kind of They've defined the whole Hobby and everything that
makes it near yeah. Yeah, it's not just a few little
bits and pieces that they've done like you say it's they are
the definitive, they're the ones who not just started it off but
have kept it going. And maintain that.
And I think that's part of what what the success of Workshop is
not in. Just it's not just the, this
constant churning out of new stuff and rehashing of the
things, but it's that that continuity because you've had
those same those same cookie and loads of people have come and
gone and loads of people have had input and loads of people
taking it all in different directions, but you've had this
continuity right the way through.
So you can see an Eeveelution from yeah, about sort of 1985
onwards. It's not, it's a constant
evolution of And that's why they're so bloody good now.
Because they've just built and everything that has come before.
Hmm. Well, I will say that.
I mean again just like it's probably your area of expertise
because you like that like shitty stuff, right?
But down period like I don't excite dropped out that this is
after I've kind of lost interest where and I saw someone
mentioned it on Facebook the other day where they say oh it's
the period when all the hands were massive.
It's all the plus and I know exactly what they've driven by
that all the plastic goblins and stuff that things like giant
hands on the scale and had like giant hands and the Miniatures
with this crap. They were so crappy.
It's unbelievable. And again parodies the way to
keep using because again it's that always it.
This is like a parody. A of what Workshop is he, you
know, he's like, I don't know how we arrived at that, but it
that was definitely like, you know, I guess it's like what a
six or seven or something where it was just like rehashing, and
there's no new ideas. It's like, let's just rehash
what we've done before and that all now let's do a parody of
what we did before, you know, really it was over I think it
was just you know there's nothing there.
Okay. So I kind of want to because I I
wasn't involved at that point but I think Josh probably you
were so I'm in. So what do I do?
I wasn't like, I was really out of it, completely out of out of
Games. Workshop as a hobby games, wish
it was Norma Rae old really into Rack Em.
Rack Em is a French company, maybe you don't.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were the New Gods for me the painters
especially what those guys from Martin and Vincent we're doing
in the Sierra Sebastian man. There were just they just blew
my mind that Yeah, that was one of the things that pulled me
back into it actually, was one of those I was in in one of my
local game shops in Taunton about 10 or so years ago, and I
happened to pick up a rack and catalog.
No, I've never seen any of this stuff before and I've met
sleeping through one of their full color catalogs.
And my jaw just hit the floor. It's not just the quality of the
figures, but the painting, man. I was yeah.
Just like, yeah, I'll go start doing this again because I've
got to eat. I've got to get get involved
with this because it was. Yeah, some amazing stuff would
being done, yeah, for sure. Okay.
Sir to make maybe a question for both of you guys will feel us,
you know, we're all a bit long in the tooth now, see for
yourself and I'm still young and yeah, well, that's what the
beers telling, anyway, I don't know.
So you think when we first met I was 160.
Yeah. Yeah.
We'll be painting figures. Let's talk about eyesight.
Okay mate. / - bloody hell I'm using magnifiers now.
Yeah, I've Stewart guys. Like how is it affecting you
figure painting? Are you having to use anything
to enhance? But the Iceland.
Hey, here is Bruce mate, very Spruce.
My vision was absolutely perfect up until about five or six years
ago, five minutes ago and now it is about arm's length.
Yeah, if I want to pay for it, I've got I've got reading
glasses, actually. Actually, I was talking about
this with One of the scope one of the sculptors he God this is
embarrassing because it was only a couple of days ago, that's
another things. Not just the eyesight that goes,
you know, it's again there's a bee with a blade is.
Yeah. But I've got, I'm using super
strength reading glasses now, to be able to paint, and I've can't
keep putting it off any longer. I've got to go to the auditions,
because it, I'm going to have to get some really good.
Really good? Proper grasses.
So that's good. Yeah.
You say Josh, you've been using those magnifiers.
I tried one of them and I just cannot get on with it.
Yeah, just can't, it just doesn't work for me.
This is it. That's right.
Yeah, flattens everything out too much.
You lose all your depth perception that there's true you
do. Yeah.
And I don't know why, but it just it just clicked with me and
I can use them. So they work for me, but I'd
imagine to some people just wouldn't work.
Imagine some people get actually, like, you know, yeah,
disorientation or whatever it might be from that depth
perception, problem. So, you just got to find
whatever's best for you mate. I'd go definitely to the
optometrist, and Just check it out, man.
Get some Kip. Get those.
Yeah. Yeah.
Get some glass top. They'll have something they're
made for you to do that? Yeah, for sure.
Please. Do you remember back in the day
when John used to like come on, walk around me like, pick up
stuff. Our desks maybe like a holding
it arm's length. Yeah.
Yeah, it happens to us, all right?
It does really does. Yeah, yeah, I think my eyesight
started going about who may be one or two years ago.
I really felt a big difference and I knew that, you know, it, I
just couldn't see shit because I take, I take photographs of
stuff and look bloody awful. When I, when I zoomed in on, it
was just terrible. And it will say though is like,
seriously. I mean, I mean you know Josh
because you were kind of involved in the journey really
but like it was literally only two years ago, like started
painting again, not properly. I was our own things.
Fucking Viking Army and I stopped paying figures again.
I like, literally, you know, the first attempt I literally
couldn't. See, I've almond, you know, it
was a nightmare but it took two or three figures and somehow,
you do kind of tune in like I found my, you get It used to
what you can't the level to which you can see.
But also I need you eyesight, kind of, you know, adjusts or
whatever, but it got literally, it got to the point that I.
Okay, this isn't how it was before, but now I'm kind of
doing something that I can do. But it's, it's, you know, it is
radiant. It's scary.
When you think back in the day you, we literally, you remember
how we used to paint on our knee and you'd be like right here Me
as particularly people in the future and now I'm like, I need
at least like two feet. Yeah.
Was it was, it might Park. So used to sit with his chair
really low and he'd keep the figure on his desk and he'd be
hunched right down. I thought I used to think that I
don't know. How does he is back?
Hold up for that. Yeah, what?
Yeah, I used to. I used to sit there with it.
My elbows on the desk figures figures like that.
But yeah, you'd be Right. If you right up here and I'm
looking at my thumb now I'm seeing too blurry.
Thumbs? Yeah.
Yeah, there we go. Now I'm in Focus.
Yeah, there we go. Full little arms legs and now
it's stuck it out. Yeah, but if you see this you
just gotta adapt. You know just going to adapt if
you want to keep doing it if you only keep painting.
Yeah you just gotta find the whatever works for, you know, I
mean and they'll be something out there man.
So thank you very much. The sad thing is though is like
you know this is sad. It's like really difficult.
Oh my God but you know be paying these figures are kind of going.
Okay, so yeah I'm happy but my friend gave me some primary
Space Marines. Oh God.
Can't wait. And it gets stuck in on these
three times. I've tried to paint them and
they've all ended up in stripper, okay?
And to be an experimental painter and have to sit and look
in the mirror and tell yourself, keep calm and Space Marines
anymore. Really sucks.
But yeah, you've been you've been out of it for so long and
it's something we all get takes time to get back in.
Yeah. Next time man.
Yeah you'll get your eye back in maybe in another 10 years or so.
Yeah. No kidding, but like loving the
fact that you can replicate like that era.
He's amazing. I'm enjoying this.
Honestly, I love it. I love doing it, but I love
doing the Rackham. Stuff to Allah.
I love painting in that. I'm trying to emulate their
style as well, which is incredibly difficult.
Is it completely different? Yeah, I said, look at that, and
look at like Paul Mueller's, you know, sort of style.
It's very similar to that but a completely different skill set
involved with it. I don't know.
No. Yeah I've going to I'm going to
interview Martin about it because I've been in contact
with him quite a few times corresponding him up.
I'm not going to pronounce his last name because apparently got
it wrong and he said that was funny.
Yeah, no, no, this is Martin from France.
This is the rat one of the rack and Painters when the earth and
grand grand body. I think it's cool.
I'm not sure. I'm yeah, you know, you know
until next to it. Yeah, you know, yeah yeah what
he's doing? Martin's actually been he
actually goes to Weimer world. He takes his new age of Sigma
armies or 40 counties. It goes to talk to John.
Blanche is a matter of Blanche fan and yeah, he's still very
active in the hobby. He's a professional painter by
trade and he's an incredible person has credible stuff here.
Yeah, he's really good guy, and he's a lovely person just to
talk to you know, is he's just a really great guy.
So I'm going to give get them on to get them on the podcast at
some point to talk about his experience.
As with the Rackham Studio because that's that's something
that I'm sure people would love to hear about, definitely.
Yeah, I'd like to know about that because it's, it's like I
say it's part of by the time I found out about them they'd
already gone. All right.
Catalog, this catalog that I picked up was in The Bargain
Bin. It was just like I then had to
look up who they were. And, you know this, they'd
already gone over there timers. The past.
So yeah, I'd love to know more about that because it's
something that's part of the thing that completely possible.
Yeah, many. Especially if you're talking
about people to get on, if you could get like torben or like,
yeah, it's all burning Jakob. I'll leave that to you like.
Yeah. You've got chronic command.
But get those guys on that of yours would be great.
Yeah. Well, of course with us, right?
Guys back on from the heavy metal seemed like from many
black from the early 90s, all the way through to the late in
the late 90s. How good would that be?
Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah.
So you guys are the handlers. You'll have to arrange that.
I don't know. I don't know who Leave that you
might be good and be good. But yeah, it was good.
It was good. It was a good story to share and
you guys, you know, you told a really great story and I'm sure
people the listeners will. I really appreciate I did
because you know, I know Day by only very briefly for four
months in the studio that I was there and but I didn't know some
of my first mate for best. I tell you, I was so lucky to
get that. I'm telling you you guys must be
desperate to hire me an Ozzy six foot four to six foot four tall
and could Campaign to save his life but you know somehow I
still swim dude, I'm not got Crews else but do you remember
the story you told me about what bungs are?
I can't really get because I got a terrible man today so please
tell us, yeah, that's not happening.
My memories from from, especially the well, actually
the whole of the 1990s, my memories are patchy at best.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mainly mainly, because of the sheer quantity of beer that was
being drunk at the time. I'm making up for that now,
actually do it. So yeah, I wasn't a drinker back
then, but yeah. Now it's a totally different
story. But yeah, I know what you mean.
- I just remember sitting front of that cabinet.
Stairs on the second floor and mezzanine floor and I was
thinking bloody hell. This is just that, that was the
Pinnacle of, you know, just seeing all these like literally
thousands of beautifully painted Miniatures in a cabinet that was
it for me just to reach that point.
It wasn't so much. The people it was just sitting
in front of that cabinet that just looking all over you.
The only personally, actually, yeah, I used to.
I used to go up and side, lunch, breaks, and stuff like that.
I used to go up and just look through the cabinets and all the
painted figures because it in while I was there contributing
to what was in there. Because you'd always find
something that you'd missed or you just pick up something and
go. Yeah, that's a, that's a really
nice job on that, or or whatever, you know, it's I'd
love to love to be able to see into the cabinet's now.
You see what the stuff looks like in real life.
Now, God right now. It must be amazing.
But I think like speaking to your point they're exactly the
same. Like, don't look at the
comments. You know, to our my God.
Oh my God. But there came a point we
personally, would he stop doing that.
And it was when you were like, You know, I didn't think about
it at the time but what it meant was like, well it's because it's
not relevant to me anymore. Like I'm beyond this, you know
it's like what we're doing now, you know, this stuff shared
paid, what do you know, basically, you know which was
which was fun in itself, you know, that you've grown up as we
talked about right at the beginning, you know, you've
grown up as a kid looking at white dwarfs, sucking that stuff
in being so inspired. But when you come to the point,
when you finally think, Now know, we're calling the shots.
We journey up the stuff that other people dream about, you
know. Yeah.
And I still find it quite
uplifting quite humbling. A quite amazing when you bump
into people on the internet online and go all, you know, I
loved your stuff back then, you know, I was inspired to get into
the Hobby and it It, it's still going on.
Now we were probably we were probably the second generation
of that because Wing we looked at the original heavy, metal
stuff for the pre 90 stuff and that fired us to get started.
And then there's been various Generations since then, you
know, some of the guys who are sculpting against Workshop.
Now were painters who were inspired by us and there's still
people who were inspired by us. They're painting and it's quite
amazing. I find it amazing that we had an
impact doing what we were doing, you know?
Yep, very true. Alright guys.
Well thank you very much again for your time this evening to
come on, let's do it. Thank you very much.
It's lunch time. I know last time for you make
leaving for us, it's like 12:30 now.
So I know it was difficult to get the times lined up for
everybody, so I really appreciate everybody coming on.
You both coming on to talk to us the the the crank of an podcast
listeners will really appreciate your time with us today and and
such a long time to solve. We could keep talking for
another era. Yeah, you sure about probably
Babble on about all this, or we could, but will might have to
get you back on with some other other x x any metal painters
and, and, and do it in another time, guys.
So again, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you.
Thanks for watching. Yeah, cheers.
Hey guys, you can talk as long as you like.
So please make 40 minutes. So I'm glad you guys have
connected now so please continue that.
Yeah, okay. It's only phone calls.
Yeah, great. My pleasure - very much.
My pleasure is lovely to meet you too.
Stewart. Okay.
And you I can make thank you very much and and see you guys
again soon. Take care.
Yeah. Be say soon.
Thank you. All right.
Bye-bye. Cheers.