1 00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:06,000 Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the childhood body for 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,200 the project profession. Hi, I'm Emma divita. 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,700 The editor of project apm's quarterly journal and this our 4 00:00:13,700 --> 00:00:17,200 crisis talk season of podcasts. I'll be asking project 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,200 professionals to share their stories of managing and pivoting 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,100 their projects as the world has turned upside down around them. 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,400 So thanks for joining me in this episode. 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,600 We'll be meeting Sonia Sharma, head of planning and corporate. 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,200 Direct management office at British broadcaster channel for 10 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:36,500 which has become for many of us. One of the most important ways 11 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:38,500 to entertain ourselves at home in lockdown. 12 00:00:39,300 --> 00:00:42,200 Its programming has had to radically alter from covering 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,500 planned sporting events. Like the now Persephone Tokyo 14 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:49,600 Paralympics to DIY programs made by celebrities in their own 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,300 homes like Grace and Perry's Art Club behind the scenes at the 16 00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:56,600 broadcaster forced change. Has gone much deeper than just 17 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,700 altering program schedules as Sonia. 18 00:00:58,700 --> 00:01:02,100 Explain to me. She describes her job as doing 19 00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:05,700 more with less using budget resources and time in the most 20 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:09,600 effective way for the business Channel. 4 is an organization of 21 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,100 low project management maturity. And her main responsibilities 22 00:01:13,100 --> 00:01:15,800 are to develop an embed an enterprise-wide project 23 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,100 management office. The tricky part. 24 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:20,900 She says is working in a culture where people don't want to be 25 00:01:20,900 --> 00:01:23,100 constrained by process and bureaucracy. 26 00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:26,000 They need to be allowed to have freedom to be creative. 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,600 Find imbalances, the art, and how to introduce new project 28 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,300 management. Sepsis key. 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,900 I spoke to Sonia from her home in the middle of May and we pick 30 00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:38,100 up the conversation with her. She explains. 31 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:39,900 What's her role at Channel 4 covers. 32 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:44,400 Hi Sonia. Thanks for joining us. 33 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,300 First he could you give us an outline of your role and the 34 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:51,700 pmo's work at Channel 4. Yeah, sure. 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,100 Great to be here. Some, my role at Channel 4 is, I 36 00:01:56,100 --> 00:02:00,800 run the Enterprise p.m. I started the role beginning of 37 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,600 last year prior to that. I was sort of spending two years 38 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,300 or so setting up the technology. Pmo. 39 00:02:08,300 --> 00:02:11,500 So that kind of led into the role that I'm doing now, which 40 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,500 pretty much Is what I was doing at technology putting in place 41 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:21,700 processes and procedures and governance and rather than just 42 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:24,200 the technology department looking at this across the whole 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,900 organization. So I mean Channel 4 is a very 44 00:02:28,900 --> 00:02:32,500 low maturity organization from a sort of project point of view. 45 00:02:32,500 --> 00:02:40,300 So I guess the interesting part of the role is about how I 46 00:02:40,308 --> 00:02:45,300 actually put those Features and processes in and just to give a 47 00:02:45,308 --> 00:02:49,700 bit of background Channel 4 has what 800 800 employees. 48 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Yes. We have around 800 employees. 49 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,600 How many project managers or how big is the pmo? 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,200 Because I know you said it's low maturity. 51 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,100 But could you give us a bit background? 52 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:02,900 Yeah. So the pmo the Enterprise p.m. 53 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:06,200 I was just myself. So it's I guess what you call. 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,100 I think I've heard the phrase poo a pmo of one and the 55 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:12,900 technology pmo. Slightly bigger. 56 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:17,700 It's actually a pot a pmo of to. So there's very few of us to 57 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:21,600 pmo's and I think a lot of that is just to do with the fact that 58 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:27,500 it is a very New Concept for Channel 4. 59 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,200 And even project management is a very New Concept. 60 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,100 So in terms of number of project managers, we've only really got 61 00:03:34,700 --> 00:03:39,000 within technology about 20 or so, and then across the 62 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000 business, a lot less, say a probably about a hand. 63 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,700 You'll probably five or six and most of them are bought in as 64 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:50,900 and when we do big project, so we don't have a pool, a such of 65 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:54,900 project managers, when I came to interview you last year for the 66 00:03:54,900 --> 00:04:00,100 cover story for project. In Autumn, 2019. 67 00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:04,200 You'd ready-made, massive amount of progress in terms of 68 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:09,400 introducing project management to a broadcaster like Channel 4. 69 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:14,800 So I'm sure you were very pleased with the progress. 70 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,300 You are making. And then obviously, in March 71 00:04:18,899 --> 00:04:23,000 comes the coronavirus crisis. I was wondering if you could 72 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,400 cast your mind back to the end of March and the beginning of 73 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,200 lockdown. Could you talk us through what 74 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,100 those early weeks were like for you and how that lockdown 75 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:37,900 affected your work? And the pmo's work as she feels 76 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:39,800 for quite long time ago. It's only really nine. 77 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:44,500 Exon and mean prior to that, I guess just to put into context. 78 00:04:44,500 --> 00:04:50,200 So I've been doing, as you say some work building up the 79 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,700 Enterprise, pmo building up the portfolio for less than a year 80 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:58,800 or so, and then we actually appointed a transformation 81 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,400 director to help us with the big transformation program across 82 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,000 the organization. So, we just started that the 83 00:05:06,008 --> 00:05:11,500 beginning of February and then as you say, The covid hit we 84 00:05:11,500 --> 00:05:13,700 left Channel 4. Think a week before the actual 85 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:17,200 official look down. And I think the first couple of 86 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,800 weeks we really quite chaotic. So people weren't really sure 87 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,400 what to do. So there was a sort of period of 88 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,200 do. We keep doing what we were doing 89 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,300 before or you know, how do we adjust? 90 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:35,300 So, I think it took about a week or so to get into some sorts of 91 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:39,800 some form of order. And actually, what we did is use 92 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:44,600 the Confirmation director and her experience of working with 93 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,800 crisis situations and very, very quickly within a week. 94 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,100 Actually. We set up some covid-19 95 00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:55,300 governance. So we got even running now for 96 00:05:55,300 --> 00:06:00,400 work streams, people Finance procurement and Tekken projects, 97 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,300 and we kick them off within a week twice a week. 98 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:08,600 So eight calls in a week for an hour with a, quite a clear 99 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,200 agenda in terms of, what we Were trying to achieve within each 100 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,800 one and who was going to be involved in that and then that 101 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,600 governance started running and then alongside that there was 102 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,400 some reporting to the exec that went up to help and enable them 103 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,400 with their decision-making. So I think that was really key 104 00:06:26,700 --> 00:06:29,900 at that time of Crisis. So there was a lot of work that 105 00:06:29,900 --> 00:06:31,900 was being done. Then I think the other thing we 106 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:35,100 had to do was really look at. Then our priorities and our 107 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:40,200 portfolio and and start to think about how do we actually Out to 108 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,500 manage that, can you tell me what projects you are working at 109 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:45,400 the time. So that's interesting to find 110 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,900 out about the transformation program that you are embarking 111 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:50,800 on. But perhaps for those who don't 112 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,100 know much about it. When I spoke to you, you had 113 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:55,300 Super X projects. I remember. 114 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,600 But could you tell it give us a bit of background about the 115 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,200 transformation that channel for was undertaking before this 116 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,900 started and what's happened to those projects if you're able to 117 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:09,600 tell us. So the Super X Project was still 118 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:10,700 sore. Of living and breathing. 119 00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:15,800 If you like they were all big projects from a strategic point 120 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,100 of view, from a financial point of view and were being followed 121 00:07:20,100 --> 00:07:23,600 through what I was then doing sort of moving to the next phase 122 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,600 of things. As part of the transformation is 123 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,600 then looking at everything else. So we'd started then 124 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:33,700 categorizing all of the portfolio as that's correct, but 125 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:39,200 then we have platinum, gold, bronze, silver, and also looking 126 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,800 at What we called an execution Engine with with okay, if we're 127 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,200 putting these all these projects into a hopper. 128 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,100 How do we manage that? What stage gate process is do we 129 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:50,800 put in place Waters of the business cases that we need to 130 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,200 look at and and put a lot more sort of controls and processes 131 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,600 in place to make that happen and the other parts of the 132 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,900 transformation were around strategy. 133 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:08,600 So that's been quite a big missing part for us at Channel 4 134 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,100 and am quite What fundamental for the work that we do in the 135 00:08:13,108 --> 00:08:17,300 pmo? So there was a big bit of work 136 00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:21,000 as part of the transformation to start to build that and connect 137 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,400 that with the execution engine. So it was that was the strategy, 138 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,300 the Nations and regions strategy, that involve channel 139 00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:32,700 for relocating, some of its HQ to lead and the creative hubs in 140 00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:35,299 Glasgow and Bristol, that was part of it. 141 00:08:35,299 --> 00:08:39,700 So, I think we're really looking at longer term as well. 142 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:44,600 We're looking at where do we actually see ourselves in kind 143 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,400 of ten years time? So as a business, we already 144 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,000 sort of knew be pre covid. The we had to make some 145 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,300 fundamental changes in how we are operating. 146 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:59,700 People were not watching Leah TV, you know, the viewing 147 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:03,900 Figures were not as good as what we usually had and, you know, 148 00:09:03,908 --> 00:09:07,000 from a sort of competition point of view for the next exam has 149 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,700 and we weren't getting the young views that we needed. 150 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,100 So, they needed to be sort of a shift in that way. 151 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:18,000 So a lot of that work was about, what directions do we go in and 152 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,200 starting to think about what are the actual options and what are 153 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,300 the actual possibilities? So that's kind of what that was. 154 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:29,300 I think Nations and regions was pretty much, I guess I guess 155 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:33,900 closed off in a way. We had our leads building sort 156 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:36,500 of in the middle of being opened. 157 00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:38,700 It actually was one of the projects that got stopped. 158 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:41,800 What's happening to that. The moment I guess all work has 159 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,200 just been paused on it. Yeah, so as I was part of the 160 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,000 sort of the prioritization exercise, what we had to do is 161 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,000 really look at everything that was on the table. 162 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,500 So as I mentioned although C / X projects and one of them was the 163 00:09:55,300 --> 00:09:58,400 The Majestic one of them, you know, such as was a number of 164 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,200 other things as well. And then we just had to make a 165 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:07,700 really clear call based on business continuity and 166 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:11,800 everything else. So What are the key things that 167 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,200 need to keep on going to keep our business running and what 168 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,100 are the other thing? So we actually built, what we 169 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:22,000 call the prioritization ladder, to do that, to provide some sort 170 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,100 of logic, and, and justification for that. 171 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:29,000 So, that sort of started with number one being no cash savings 172 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,000 meant that, we've already made commitments, number two, being 173 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,400 mandatory stuff. So there might be that actually 174 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,700 because a legal reason for carrying on with this project. 175 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:46,000 And then we look at sort of strong business cases and 176 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,900 anything that, you know, would give a good return on investment 177 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,000 and then for was strategic capability. 178 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,700 So we're we're looking to the Future focused and putting 179 00:10:56,700 --> 00:11:02,800 projects in to be ready to manage those priorities. 180 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,500 And then discretionary was the last one. 181 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:09,400 So actually what we did is said anything that's mandatory or no 182 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,500 cash. Saving so bucket, sort of one 183 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:15,700 and two we keep doing and anything else stops. 184 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:23,800 And sort of the Majestic project was was not in the one or two. 185 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,600 It was more of a strong business case. 186 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,700 So it made sense to kind of do that. 187 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,400 And then, then we have to look at sort of the, the rest of the 188 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,800 stuff and, and kind of understand how we're going to 189 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,900 manage all of that ongoing. This will happen quite fast. 190 00:11:38,900 --> 00:11:42,700 I imagine those Kind of early weeks of the crisis. 191 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,800 Was it a lot about making decisions quickly. 192 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,900 What was the team working like together? 193 00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:52,300 Because this is an unusual time. And I've been very impressed by 194 00:11:52,300 --> 00:11:56,500 the amount of collaboration Focus kind of determination that 195 00:11:56,500 --> 00:11:59,600 organizations have shown. Did it. 196 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,500 Did you find that that everyone understood quickly? 197 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:07,300 What needed to be done? Because certainly it sounds as 198 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:11,000 though, there were lots of extra processes and Systems and 199 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,700 governance that hadn't existed. Before that you had to put in 200 00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:17,200 place quickly. How easy was it to pull that 201 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,300 off. It was actually quite amazing. 202 00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:21,600 How quickly we did that. I think the governance really 203 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,800 helped, because that got people into the right frame of mind 204 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,600 that actually, we've got to take quick action. 205 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,000 We've got to do what's necessary and the Cadence of having it 206 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,700 sort of twice a week, meant that we were really looking. 207 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:43,800 Being for results quite quickly. And I think everyone was sort 208 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,100 of, in a bit of a mindset to do what's necessary. 209 00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:50,100 So, in my role, sort of changed a lot at that point to help 210 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:54,600 coordinate, all of this and understand all the other acts, 211 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,600 but expert, that, you know, usually wouldn't be really 212 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,500 getting involved in. So we think it was quite 213 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:00,700 interesting. How quickly did that? 214 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,200 But as you say, the pace of work was very, very different to what 215 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,700 people were normally sort of working out what they were used 216 00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:10,400 to. And then, On top of that, you've 217 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,100 got all the challenges about doing it virtually, and all the 218 00:13:14,108 --> 00:13:17,700 challenges that people have at home with children, schooling 219 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:20,500 dependence or whatever else. It might be. 220 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:24,600 So it was actually quite amazing with all of that going on. 221 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,600 How quickly we sort of managed to get into action mode. 222 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:31,100 What would you say? Has been the biggest effects of 223 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:34,400 the crisis for Channel 4. I know Channel 4 has had to deal 224 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,100 with the cancellation of sporting events, not least the 225 00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:39,600 Tokyo Paralympics, which have been passed. 226 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,200 Into next year, so I imagine that's had a big effect on 227 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,000 Advertising revenues and the financial side of things as a 228 00:13:48,008 --> 00:13:51,900 business where publicly owned and privately funded through ad 229 00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:55,100 revenues. So as you say our most 230 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:58,200 fundamental effect is on our is financially. 231 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:04,900 So we really trying to do whatever's necessary to maintain 232 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:08,700 our financial position. So I think that's really been. 233 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:11,200 Number one, Focus. As for everyone. 234 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,800 But then on the content side as you say, we've had quite a 235 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,600 number of the big events the paralympic, some of the sporting 236 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,800 events that Formula 1 cancelled, which has then meant that we've 237 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,700 lost a lot of Revenue. But also we've had to then 238 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,300 change the schedule and I think the it's quite interesting 239 00:14:30,300 --> 00:14:34,600 because there's a lot of doing more with less that's has had to 240 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,900 happen and in terms of production as well cut to be 241 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,800 more creative. Then they were even before so 242 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,600 the creatives have got even more creative. 243 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,000 So things like the step show we had to actually launch it in a 244 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,400 very different way or decided to launch in a very different way 245 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,800 to what we were originally anticipating to do. 246 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,500 So, we had Steph in her house filming from her home and and 247 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,500 then yeah, I think a lot of the shows now, you probably say that 248 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,600 they're quite low budget, but really quite interesting in 249 00:15:06,608 --> 00:15:09,800 terms of the concept and what we're trying to do and a lot The 250 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,100 factual stuff has gone gone down really well, actually, which 251 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,700 kind of things because I was about to say, I'm a massive fan 252 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:18,900 of the Grayson Perry Art Club as a public sector broadcasting. 253 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:22,600 We sort of got part of our remit to make sure people are kept 254 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,500 really well informed. And I think a lot of the the 255 00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:31,300 covid sort of information around what's going on and even our 256 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:35,700 news broadcasts have really grown in popularity as well. 257 00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:39,300 So people look to us to find out what's really happening. 258 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,100 So I think that's been really positive. 259 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:45,400 So actually from a viewing figures point of view. 260 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,900 We've been doing really really well, but unfortunately, it 261 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:51,300 doesn't always translate into revenue for us. 262 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:55,000 Yeah. So hence your focus as an 263 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,000 organization and cost savings absolutely. 264 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:02,400 Now that kind of early crisis management phase is over. 265 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,300 I get the impression that everyone now, within businesses 266 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:13,200 needing to move towards a steady estate as we begin to unlock. 267 00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:18,500 Can you tell me how things are now at Channel 4 for you, what 268 00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:22,000 your priorities are and what's top of your agenda? 269 00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:24,600 Now? We had what we called our crisis 270 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,200 management phase. Where did you say? 271 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,000 We looked at sort of opportunities and savings and we 272 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,500 stopped what was necessary. It's about how do we bring all 273 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:37,300 that back? And obviously it's not starting 274 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:40,400 to come back yet, but there will be a point when it does. 275 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,500 And it's I guess the first thing is really about, what are the 276 00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:47,900 indicators. How do we know when we start 277 00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:50,000 bringing these things back? What are the things that we need 278 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,000 to look out for my boss? Always jokes. 279 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,000 It's like when McDonald's is open then, you know, it's a sign 280 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,900 but it is things like that, you know, that we need to look for. 281 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:05,300 So and then when we do that it My role is really about, okay, 282 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,900 when that starts to happen. How do we make sure that we've 283 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:14,300 got the controls in place to maintain what we've already 284 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:16,800 done. So I sort of feel like, we've a 285 00:17:16,808 --> 00:17:19,900 bit like what everyone's doing at home, you know, we've got a 286 00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:23,800 lot of fat. So we've been a bit of a machine 287 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,800 kind of doing lots of workouts and we've got to a place where 288 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:32,100 we doubt very very lean and now it's about maintaining it. 289 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:35,000 So, how do we do that? And make sure we've got sort of 290 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,400 all the controls in place, but we don't want to be too heavy 291 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,700 about it. So it needs to still be simple 292 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,300 and getting that balance, right? I think is probably the most 293 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:47,800 difficult thing but because we've actually I think it has 294 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,000 been a really good opportunity for the me and for the pmo 295 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,700 because we've had to use a lot of the information that we had. 296 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,700 And we've actually got to a point where we've got a lot more 297 00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:05,200 information than we had before, but it's He's now about managing 298 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,000 that and making sure that we don't lose sight of what we have 299 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,000 already done. What information information 300 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,900 about where projects are right. Now, that kind of thing. 301 00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:19,000 Yeah, exactly exactly that. So, so through the exercise of 302 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,700 stopping starting prioritizing, we've actually gathered a lot 303 00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:24,300 more information about what's going on. 304 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:31,100 Who owns them where they are in the cycle and a and for a few of 305 00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:34,500 them that wanted to continue. Business cases as well. 306 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:39,700 So this is quite revolutionary for us to start to get people to 307 00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:42,400 think in that way. So I think that's been really 308 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,100 good, but it's about that sort of slow, bring back and and 309 00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:51,000 really sort of knowing and managing that those next steps. 310 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:53,900 I think the other bit that is really important. 311 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:56,400 I think is probably the biggest priorities, the communication 312 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,800 piece. Everyone's obviously, working 313 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,200 from home at the moment and keeping everyone. 314 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:07,300 An informed about what's going on, unless you're involved in 315 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:10,300 it. You probably don't know. 316 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,600 So, there's a lot of people that still kind of feel like it's 317 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,000 still business as usual some that are totally unaware. 318 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,700 That we've actually got a situation on. 319 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:21,800 I guess it's a bit like, old the tele Zone and we're showing 320 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,500 programs must be. All right. 321 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:26,900 I think there's a bit of sort of making sure that, you know, so 322 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:30,300 that communication is constant. And, you know, there are sort of 323 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:32,600 no surprises if you like in terms of where we are. 324 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,600 And what's going to Next and then also, in terms of the the 325 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,200 work that we're doing on controls, making sure that 326 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,300 people know what to expect when perhaps they want to bring back 327 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:47,000 their project. Perhaps it want to start 328 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,200 something new that. Actually we're in a different 329 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,200 world now and to do that, you are going to have to do things 330 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,300 differently. Do you feel as though they've 331 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,100 been some positives for the pmo that have come through? 332 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:01,700 This crisis? Not least, I guess getting 333 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:06,700 people to Formalize stuff more. So, there's better process that 334 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:10,300 you talked about people needing to create business cases for 335 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:14,300 projects, which previously Channel 4 wasn't really doing. 336 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:20,400 And if so, is there a need for you to get people to understand 337 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,500 that? It isn't just a temporary thing 338 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:25,800 that it's just not just for covid-19, but that it's going to 339 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,600 be a permanent state of being after this. 340 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,100 Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of my sort of 341 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:33,900 biggest fears. I think the In terms of 342 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,200 positives, yet. The pmos definitely recognized 343 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,100 as a valuable resource, which wasn't the case before. 344 00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:43,800 There was a lot of what do you do? 345 00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:48,800 And I think now that having been through the situation where 346 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,100 we've had a lot of the information that we needed to 347 00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:53,600 and being able to act on it quite quickly because the pmo 348 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,000 was in place that's been recognized. 349 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,400 So I think that's been a real big positive for us. 350 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:01,600 And then, because now, I guess, as I mentioned before, we've cut 351 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,500 a lot of the fat out and we're in this, Place where we're very 352 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:06,700 lean and we want to maintain that. 353 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:11,600 Again, the leadership, and the exact understand the need for 354 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:16,400 control, and the fact that, you know, the pmo will be the team 355 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,200 that sort of needs to put in place those controls and, and, 356 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,400 and help to make sure that there are dear to. 357 00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:25,900 So, I think from that point of view, the pmo is definitely more 358 00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:28,300 recognized and valued. And as I mentioned before, I 359 00:21:28,308 --> 00:21:31,700 think another positive is that the information that's now 360 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:35,700 available, which wasn't People before I think the other sort of 361 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,700 positive is really around remote working previously that was not 362 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,000 accepted by all departments and some people would be like a 363 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,300 working working from home. You definitely not working. 364 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:52,000 Where's now I think when we do eventually go back there is 365 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,600 going to be a lot more flexible working on offer and I think, 366 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,700 you know, having had to move so quickly into the suit new world. 367 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,000 It is going to be more accepted by those people that Previously 368 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,100 didn't understand how that could work. 369 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:08,400 But I guess going back to your point in terms of that sort of 370 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,000 fear of moving into that next phase. 371 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,400 I think it's really interesting because I always think about 372 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,500 with moved so fast and people have just done it because they 373 00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:20,900 have had to really, but I always worry about. 374 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:24,500 Well, do they really know why we need to continue doing these 375 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:27,600 things? And when we then back into 376 00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:30,800 steady state then will they continue to do them? 377 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,900 Because if they don't understand that big picture, Then they 378 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:36,400 haven't really got that understanding of why they're 379 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,400 doing what they're doing. So, I think that's a really 380 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,000 important message and I think that that sort of something we 381 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,300 have to manage as the pmo in terms of people not going or 382 00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:48,300 being able to go back to their old ways. 383 00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:50,700 And that's a lot of communications support. 384 00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:55,000 And I think also how we balance the the process is to keep them 385 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,400 really simple and effective. I wanted to pick up on 386 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,100 communication because I know certainly that at Channel 4, 387 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:05,300 you're dealing with people. For the large part who kind of 388 00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:10,200 creative they don't necessarily like being rule-bound and 389 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,600 they're probably unfamiliar with project management terms. 390 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,100 And I know you've been successful in speaking to people 391 00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:24,800 in a way they understand, and how are you communicating the 392 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,900 pmos aims and needs to the rest of the organization in a way 393 00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:32,100 that people get, I don't think they really need to know that 394 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:36,500 it's the pmo. It's more about the business and 395 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:40,700 and what we're doing is based on strategy of the business. 396 00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:46,100 So what we need to do as a pmo is translate that strategy into 397 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,700 what they're doing on a day-to-day basis. 398 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:52,600 And I think that's where we come in as those connectors and I 399 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,100 think that's where people then start to see why what they're 400 00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:59,800 doing is important and we don't have that connection yet, 401 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,500 unfortunately, because we didn't manage to start doing that 402 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:05,300 strategy work. Mentioned at the beginning, but 403 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:09,900 I think that is really the key of, you know, making sure that 404 00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:14,400 people that don't really get the pmo still do what we need them 405 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,700 to do. And that's mainly based on the 406 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:19,300 fact that they understand why, then why they're doing what 407 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:21,700 they're doing. How are you communicating in 408 00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:25,000 this virtual world? Is it mostly Zoom calls? 409 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:26,800 How's it working? What's working? 410 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,700 Well for you and your colleagues at the moment. 411 00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:34,600 So we use Skype and we have a lot of I sort of called. 412 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,900 So as mentioned with the governance, we've got those on a 413 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:42,200 substandard bi-weekly Cadence and I think that works because 414 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,700 that makes sure that we're talking about the same things. 415 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:49,200 Then we have Team calls that been Puttin on a regular basis 416 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,200 and I have a daily catch up with that with the team as of 9:00 417 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,100 every day, and I think it's really useful having those in 418 00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:57,700 because that just means that you've got a little bit of 419 00:24:57,700 --> 00:25:01,500 informal catch-up time. But also then you've got the 420 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:04,300 formal sort of okay. Is where we need to get stuff 421 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:07,400 done time as well. But I do really miss the, the 422 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,400 coffee chat really do miss, you know, being around people with 423 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,800 it is really hard. I think that the hardest thing 424 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,000 is, I guess we're now in the transition phase starting to 425 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,300 build some of those processes or rebuild, some of those 426 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:23,700 processes. And I feel like I'm sort of 427 00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:27,000 locked up in a little room, trying to do that on my own, 428 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:29,500 whereas it would have been, you know, a lot of other people in 429 00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:33,300 the room with, you know, flip charts and pens and lots of Of 430 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:36,700 conversation and really sort of seeing the whites people's eyes. 431 00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:39,900 When you say something that they really don't get, and I think 432 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:44,500 it's, you know, you can try and do some of that virtually, but 433 00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:46,500 it's really hard. I think that's that's probably 434 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:48,100 one of the hardest things is, when you're sort of really 435 00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:52,700 designing and looking at ideas and trying to bring people into 436 00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:54,800 that. What have been the biggest 437 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,200 challenges for you personally? Trying to do your work in 438 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,900 lockdown. I think it's probably people 439 00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:04,400 again, I guess I From a corporate environment. 440 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,700 So I'm quite used to quite a fast pace of working where is 441 00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:11,900 channel for the majority of people that benefit quite a long 442 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,600 time and not. And as we've moved into covid, 443 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,600 we've had to get people that are not used to working at that 444 00:26:18,608 --> 00:26:20,200 pace. Working at that place very, very 445 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,700 quickly. And that's put a lot of pressure 446 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:25,300 on them because then as I mentioned earlier, they've got 447 00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:29,200 obviously the their own issues or challenges at home or 448 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,900 whatever is going on and it's just really, really, really 449 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,000 Hard. So I've had, then I've sort of 450 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,100 become a bit of an Agony On, in a way where people have been 451 00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:41,000 going. Oh, I really can't release this. 452 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600 And I'm just because, I guess you're sort of that Center Point 453 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,400 in terms of trying to get people to do what they need to do, and, 454 00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:52,100 you know, to another place. You're also that person they 455 00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:55,500 talk to when they're really feeling really stressed and they 456 00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:57,200 can't, they really can't keep up. 457 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,900 So there's a, there's a bit of that which is a bit of 458 00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:01,800 challenge, which I don't mind doing at all. 459 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,100 I love doing that talking to people. 460 00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:07,700 But it's then, having that time, then to do the work because 461 00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:10,700 you're spending a lot of time on calls like that. 462 00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:12,800 So, I think that's been quite tough. 463 00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:15,200 Have you been working very long hours? 464 00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:17,200 Yes, I have. I have. 465 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:21,200 So, I think the first couple of weeks were long, long, long days 466 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,800 and weekends just to get things set up and running pretty much 467 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,500 chain to my little room and my little desk most of the day. 468 00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:32,800 So I'm really, it's really bad. I do have to, you know, make a 469 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,500 conscious. This effort of getting up and 470 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:38,900 going for a walk and doing that. But but yeah, it is really easy 471 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:42,900 to do that, though, isn't it? I think, and I think it's quite 472 00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:47,300 nice to actually do this this podcast because it's got me to 473 00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:49,800 sort of sit back a little bit and reflect because you're such 474 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,100 a day in day out, fire fighting and just trying to get stuff 475 00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:55,500 done, but you're never really sitting down and going. 476 00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:57,300 Okay. What did I actually get from 477 00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:58,600 this? What did I learn from this? 478 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,500 So, this is quite a nice exercise to talk to you about it 479 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:03,100 and it and it takes me away from that day. 480 00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:05,000 Help. Well, that's that's something to 481 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,800 here. I was going to ask you what you 482 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,800 think the most important important lessons have been for 483 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,400 you so far for me. I think responding fast when 484 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,600 you're in a crisis is something that you really do have to do, 485 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,300 we think and we managed to do that. 486 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:25,900 I think that was really good and actually adding order or some 487 00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:30,600 logic into the chaos that you're in is really, really helpful. 488 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,000 So I was having our prioritization ladder. 489 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,600 The and and helping people to sort of go. 490 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,700 Okay, I can see why that you know that needs to happen or can 491 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:43,000 see why that doesn't happen. So I think the logic side of 492 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,500 things is important to, I think something that I was thinking 493 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:49,100 about is that actually people were there people change 494 00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:52,600 resistant but considered think they are anymore because this 495 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,300 think I think people do what they need to do. 496 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,800 If they know why and they don't really have any other options 497 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,000 are just going to do it. So I think that's a really good 498 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,000 lesson as a pmo because When you're actually designing 499 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,100 processes and trying to sort of move people into a direction, it 500 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:14,600 goes back to that why? And be really clear about that. 501 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,700 Why to them? And also I guess with the 502 00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:19,900 process side of things, not being, not given them too many 503 00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:22,300 options. So there is really only one 504 00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:24,600 rule. I think that's a good lesson 505 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,000 that I've learned through this. I think the other one is really 506 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,200 just to be ready. There's something I've some 507 00:29:29,300 --> 00:29:31,400 hurts. Somebody say some time ago is 508 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,000 that yes, you should run project. 509 00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:36,700 Act in a way that no one's going to be coming in tomorrow. 510 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,300 I mean, currently we run them in a way that everyone's going to 511 00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:42,700 be coming in. But if you run it on a way that 512 00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:46,600 no one's coming in tomorrow, then you sort of able to be at a 513 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,400 point in time where you can stop something and it's all packaged 514 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,400 up and ready to be picked up when you're ready to pick it up. 515 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,500 And I think that's a really great lessons for pmo's and 516 00:29:57,500 --> 00:30:01,600 project managers to try as much as possible to keep things in a 517 00:30:01,608 --> 00:30:06,900 state where they can, Left and picked up in a month or 518 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:08,300 whatever. However, my, whatever the 519 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:11,800 Cadence is, whatever time scales are, that sounds like a nice 520 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,800 place to be a, you in that place. 521 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,200 No, definitely not. Yeah, I think a lot of our 522 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,200 projects are not in that place. I think some of the work that we 523 00:30:23,208 --> 00:30:29,100 need to do now is about where we're picking up those projects, 524 00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:31,700 which I think we literally just cut them off. 525 00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:35,700 So, In Italy, we weren't working in that way. 526 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,400 So what we need to do is last sort of start sort of packaging, 527 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,900 the backup and tying that bow on where we need to or lifting them 528 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:47,000 back up, dusting them off and seeing where we what we need to 529 00:30:47,008 --> 00:30:48,900 do with them. So some of them might be okay 530 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,000 actually with furloughed the resource or it was a contract 531 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,600 resource working on them. So now we need to find out 532 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,600 what's the best way of doing it. Do we need to bring that 533 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,000 resource back on or is there someone within our sort of 534 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,400 permanent resource? That can take something on to 535 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,600 help us and I think is about will so challenging what we left 536 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,900 on the Shelf as well. So sometimes it might be well 537 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:14,900 actually we can do that project but we might need to do it 538 00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,800 slightly differently. To what we've said we were going 539 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,600 to do and it might be the I don't know, you change the 540 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,700 scope, you actually change how you're going to do things. 541 00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:25,700 So a good example that we've got is the mentoring. 542 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:29,000 So we were going to do some stuff around mentoring prior to 543 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,900 covid but that was all sort of centered around at all. 544 00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,500 So we sort of picked it up and is it off and said actually it's 545 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:38,100 a good time to do something now because people do need some help 546 00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:40,400 and guidance, but we're not going to do with the tool. 547 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,200 We're going to do it sort of in a more manual way. 548 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:45,900 So I think thinking differently about some of those projects is 549 00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:49,900 really really important. My final question is about the 550 00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:53,300 rest of the year and trying to plan for the next 6 months, 551 00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:59,500 which is just I guess various scenarios of uncertainty. 552 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,200 But how are you trying to kind of Them or what work might look 553 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,800 like for the next six months. Is it a case of simultaneously 554 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,100 planning for different scenarios? 555 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:16,100 Or do you feel as though this is going to be the new normal for 556 00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:20,500 the rest of 2020? This year is definitely very 557 00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:23,100 different what we expected and who knows what the rest of the 558 00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:26,400 year is going to hold. There's just going to be and I 559 00:32:26,408 --> 00:32:28,400 think is going to remain the same for the rest of the year. 560 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,400 So many unanswered questions. So it's really difficult to say, 561 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,400 I think the only only thing we can do is sort of be ready for 562 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,700 the what ifs and the eventualities. 563 00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:43,000 So as much as possible, you know, get our project sort of 564 00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,700 ready for that. Look at our portfolio and start 565 00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:49,700 to think about the K. If we were to bring things back 566 00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:53,400 in, how would we do that? What are the sort of priorities 567 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,400 that we need to bring back in? And and and what's the sort of 568 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,000 order perhaps that we need to do that in? 569 00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:01,800 What logic do we use for that? And I think there's something 570 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,300 about this sort of strategy. If you as well, so, going back 571 00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:07,000 to our overall strategy and going. 572 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,000 Okay, based on where we are. Now, where could we be heading 573 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:15,300 and and then based on that? What should we be doing to 574 00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:17,900 support that? So I think a lot of it that's go 575 00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:21,500 back to the business priorities, and being really business 576 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:24,100 focused. So that whatever the business 577 00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:28,500 decides to do. We can be prepared to support 578 00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:32,900 that either by providing the information to help with. 579 00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:37,500 Decisions to support that, or by sort of moving in that direction 580 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,900 with them. Well, that just leaves the most 581 00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:43,100 important question. I wanted to ask you, which is, 582 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,300 do you get any time to watch TV? And would you would you 583 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,800 recommend any channel for programs to project managers out 584 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,600 there? I spent a lot of time watching 585 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,900 the channel 4 news at which I think is great. 586 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,900 My kids love the friday-night dinners and in between as I 587 00:34:01,908 --> 00:34:04,200 think that that Sort of stuff is great. 588 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,400 I think at this time you need to laugh. 589 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,100 You need something that's going to sort of, really get you 590 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:12,400 through this. And I think some of those the 591 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,900 comedies that we've got up up there, a great. 592 00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:18,100 So, yeah, I think keep watching channel. 4. 593 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,000 Listen. Thank you so much for taking 594 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,600 time to speak to us. I know you're very busy and I 595 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,699 think project management Community out. 596 00:34:26,699 --> 00:34:30,400 There will be so interested in hearing what you what your 597 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,900 experience has been and what lessons you right pass on to 598 00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:35,900 others. So thank you again, for your 599 00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:37,600 time. It's been a pleasure talking to 600 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,600 you. Thank you really glad to do this 601 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,500 been good for me. As I said great to be able to 602 00:34:43,507 --> 00:34:49,699 have the time to think. Thanks again to Sonia for 603 00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:52,500 joining us, and to you for listening to this episode of 604 00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:57,100 apm's Crisis, talk to podcast. Watch out for our next Crisis. 605 00:34:57,100 --> 00:35:00,300 Talks episode, where we meet Hannah Gledhill, senior project 606 00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:02,800 manager at luxury chocolate maker Hotel. 607 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,600 Shockula. This podcast has been brought to 608 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,900 you by APM the chartered bodies. The project profession for more 609 00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:12,300 information on they p.m. Visit a p.m. 610 00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:13,900 Books all W UK.