Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
in this podcast. I'm speaking to Doctor Sarah
Haji Kazemi and Professor Eunice Matarina Sanchez, 2 co-authors,
along with Graham Winch of AP M's latest report Projecting for
the Future, Harmonising Energy and environment.
Sarah is senior lecturer in engineering project management
at Queen Mary University of London and Eunice is professor
in project management at Alliance Manchester Business
School. APM launched Projecting the
Future in 2019 to debate the challenges and opportunities for
the profession. Building on the 2017 Future of
Project Management exercise conducted by Arab and University
College London, this latest study represents A5 year update
on The Big Conversation and was conducted to provide insights
into what the profession sees as the most important future trends
that are likely to impact the way project managers practise
their profession. To identify what might need to
change in its professional practise as we progress.
Sarah and Eunice are here to present some of the findings
report covers and to give you an overview of its recommendations.
There'll be plenty food for thought, so welcome Sarah and
welcome Eunice. Thank you for finding the time.
Thank you for having. Us it's a pleasure.
I I think it would be useful for people to get a bit of
background on the projecting the future research APM has been
involved with over the past five years.
Do do you want to give us a bit of background?
So the background, so as you said this, this goes back quite
a while back through that initial conversation that APM
started in that those leadership thought leadership initiatives.
So it builds on that work that Arab and UCL did in 2017, really
trying to understand what the future of project management
was. And they identified those seven
global trends that would impact the way that we manage projects.
So shifting a work patterns, for example, the way that the
decentralizations of working, the shift in innovation cultures
in many organisations, automation and so on.
And that report concluded with a call for further reflection on
the future of the profession. And that, of course, was taken
up by Tim Banfield. And that led to a series of
those golden thread conversations, which led to
those six very useful papers where they identified.
So these are the big trends that we're seeing that will really
have an impact on the profession.
So AI, big data, climate change, the changes in demographics, so
the ageing population and the impact that would have in terms
of our the need of our infrastructure, transport, smart
cities, urbanizations, really thinking now in terms of systems
of systems and again, the future of work and scales.
So overall, those reports really aim to show the importance of
projects, how important projects and how important the effective
management of projects are not only to the UK society but also
to the economy. So this is almost the third
cycle of reflection. That golden thread conversation
was of course paused because of the COVID pandemic.
So we wanted to, you know, bring it up, bring it back to life.
And so this report really is the opportunity to have that third
cycle of reflection really thinking more in terms of what
does this mean for net 0 targets, for example?
So this is really huge big picture stuff about societal
trends, economic trends, environmental trends, which is I
imagine it's a hugely important thing to read for project
managers and project leaders to put everything into context and
picks up. And as he said, the system of
systems, because everything's connected.
And it seems to me that more and more as as projects go forward,
that you can't just do it in isolation.
I mean, everything is linked to the benefits are linked and the
outcomes are linked. So this is really interesting
stuff. So I wonder what has been
achieved by the profession over the past five years.
You've got this big kind of bigger perspective.
So with your kind of lens on things, what would you say the
achievements have been? Yes.
So obviously it's Needless to say that projects have always
made and they continue to make huge contributions to the
economy and to the society all around the world.
But if you want to specifically say what has been achieved by
the profession in the past five years, I think we can look into
how they have actually changed or managed to adapt to the new
trends. So we can see that, you know,
projects and we're talking about UK and mostly the developed
countries, but they have managed to adopt more effective project
management methodologies, agile hybrid approaches have the use
of them have increased in every sector, digital tools and
technologies. Obviously they have
revolutionised the the management of projects and also
the the profession has has managed to, to to a high degree,
adapt to the new trends. Basically in this area as well,
there's been a huge change in the way of working and I think
this is probably post COVID, the remote working which has again
changed almost every sector, including the project, the
project management profession as well.
And obviously there has have been lots of development in
developing the skills for virtual working and remote
working as well. And I can say finally, probably
there's there's much more focus on obviously sustainability, at
least in the conversations within the profession.
Now it's it's a different thing if you know if everything, all
the sustainability principles are actually being implemented.
But at least the conversation has very seriously begun.
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with all those points.
I think, you know, in the report we look back at where we have
been, where we are now and where we we could go, where we might
go in the future. And the points that Sarah made
are very much linked to what we've seen, what was noted in
the trends. But what has a project
profession achieved in the past five years?
For me, I can go a little bit beyond, if you may, how we
responded to the pandemic and the role that projects, the role
that the profession made to that response was incredible.
And I think as a profession, we should be really, really proud
and really say, look at what we can achieve in in those moments
of crisis, how flexible, how adaptable, how responsive we
are. And it links to that point that
Sarah made. The other thing that really
resonates with me and it's also the role projects are playing
and have played in relation to responding to the grand
challenges. And we can see many examples of
those to be able to respond. And I think that also offers
additional challenges, brings additional challenges to the
profession, but also great opportunities.
And I think something else is the I think more and more you
hear, especially in own organisations, the importance,
the importance of projects for achieving their strategic goals.
So we know that as a profession, we've been talking about that
for decades now. But I think now it's really
being recognised how important projects, programmes and their
effective management are to that strategic level of the
organisation and how important it is to have a project
professional sitting at that C-Suite level.
So some really big thoughts there.
I think you've perfectly both of you have captured that, that
bigger picture. And I feel it's almost the
trajectory of project management and it's professionalisation as
well and the seriousness with which it's now taken.
I don't know. I interviewed people throughout
the pandemic and the project professionals who were keeping
companies afloat that the companies turned to them to make
their retail business online only.
You know, finding the vaccine was a project and I think it did
an incredible amount to boost the kind of reputation for the
professional, give people a greater understanding of what it
actually meant means to be in project management.
So it's nice to hear that you would agree with that.
I guess we've covered a bit about how projects themselves
have been changing over the past five years, and you've talked
about various ways of running projects.
And I guess that taps in to the mindset, you know, to thrive
these days. You know, it's about having
adaptability, about being, having greater agility.
So for people who are listening, we've got the kind of big
picture context. But if you were to speak to an
individual who's listening right now and give them advice about
how they should approach their projects, is there a particular
mindset or point of view that they should take?
Because everyone talks about the constantly changing world.
I mean, it's a roller coaster right now, isn't it?
Is there any anything you've noticed that you'd pass on?
I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all advice is for
me, it's a really focus on the on the outcome.
And we've started to hear more and more on that rather than
just, you know, traditionally project management was all about
deliver the output, do the work, deliver the output.
But actually it's not about that.
It's really thinking about that long term strategic outcome.
What's the value, what's the benefit that's that output will
deliver for the owner and operator?
And I think it's that's, that's important to keep in mind, as I
say to our executives and our students, you know, that's the,
for me, that's your North Star, That's you should that's your
guiding light. So always focus on on the
outcome, really be outcome focus or if you want that mindset of
outcome focus and really trying to recognise that value is
important. Thank you.
Eunice. Sarah, is there anything you
wanted to add to that? Yes.
Well, while I fully agree with with what Eunice said, I want to
also bring another angle. Yes.
So the, the kind of having that value oriented kind of mindset
and seeing the outcome is obviously very important, but I
think it's also as important to have a focus on, on the process
as well. So how we kind of, you know,
lead from from point A to point B and what needs to be
recognised in a close throughout that process.
So you mentioned Emma in the, you know, in your question that,
you know, we are in a, in a constantly changing environment
and there's a need for adaptability, high level of
adaptability and flexibility. So the first step, I think, or
the first kind of recommendation would be to acknowledge that we
are in a very volatile market and environment and there's need
for kind of changing the mindset of we've always done it this way
because it's, it's not going to work like that.
Things are, you know, changing dramatically, you know, with I
guess everyone's, you know, thinking about generating of AI
and how you know, everyone's lives are going to change
because of that in every, every aspect of life.
So really having kind of being ready to accept that there are
changes and we need to be adaptable and flexible.
And we can't really confidently say this is the way we've done
it in the past 30 years, especially, you know, those are
more experienced. And that's how we should
continue to do it. So I think there's a need for a
shift in the mindset. That's really interesting.
One of the questions I had was around the the biggest
challenges that have sprung up over the past five years and you
already there mentioned generative AI is, is that is
that whole area the the biggest challenge facing project
professionals? Yes.
So that the disruption of new, the new and rapid pace of
technology change as Sarah was saying, yes, absolutely.
But that has been, we've always talked about that, haven't we?
I think it's now it's just that pace of change and the, as Sarah
said, how the profession really needs to adapt, to stay updated,
to really think about how they're going to integrate all
that into their ways of working into those processes, into the
practises, how you scale and upscale or rescale for that.
And that's really that's resource intensive.
So it's really, as Sarah said, requires a change of mindset.
We can't continue to managing and delivering the projects the
way we have done because our context is changing.
And it's recognising that things that are continue to be
challenge challenges is the resource managing and retaining
our resources. And that's been a point of
discussion over many years, but we still have it.
You know, you come, you develop published the reports indicating
how many project managers are required over the next 10 years
in these different sectors. And the demand for project
managers is out. You know, for me it's
incredible. And, and there's still needs to,
we still need to be able to manage and develop and retain
those resources. Perhaps also another challenge,
building on what Sarah said, is that adapting to new ways of
working, new working practises, new working patterns.
It's important the given the context that we're living in
now, also being able to deal with uncertainty and that fast
change that requires a different mindset as well.
And of course, I think for me, it's the last point before I
hand over to Sarah, is really thinking about how we integrate
both the environmental, the social considerations into the
project. That continues to be a big
challenge. As Sarah says, we talk about it,
but I we know from at least from our focus groups, you know, that
still contains well, how do we make that happen practically?
What does that look like? We need more skills, we need
knowledge and we really need to think about how we're going to
measure it. What does that look like?
I couldn't agree more with, with the points Eunice made.
And I can, I can build on, on the, the final point that Eunice
mentioned that we're, we're, and, and this is again, not, not
just Europe, not just UK, but you know, it's, it's a global
kind of shift that we're moving away from fossil fuel based
economy to renewable energy based economy.
And, and this raises lots of lots of challenges on its own
with obviously less resources, obviously, so kind of limited
resources, but also a much stronger emphasis on
sustainability. And that is in every all the
three pillars of sustainability. So society, social
sustainability, environmental and economy as well.
So I guess if we want to summarise it's I think
generative AI and moving away from fossil fuel based economy
is are the main 2 challenges for the profession.
OK, thank you. But we've spent a lot of time
talking about the challenges. What about the findings and
recommendations from from the survey?
There were ten I think. So could you talk us through
some of the most important ones because we won't be able to
cover all of them, but if there were, you know, a few that you
wanted to talk about, that would be really interesting.
In in the report, when we look back at where the profession has
come from, the contribution it has made, when we look at it
through the lens of the industrial revolutions, I think
one thing that certainly comes out that we, we should I suppose
be more vocal of, of is the profession's ownership of the
role of the projector. Our role is projecting to that
future. What do you mean by that?
What? What is the projection?
What do you mean projecting? One of the key capabilities we
see as as part of the as a project manager project
professional is their ability capability of visioning.
You know, we talk about projects as future orientated endeavours.
We project an idea forward, and indeed, that's where the term
project comes from, to project to throw an idea forward in, in
space and time. And that's what we mean by the
projector. So really thinking about how we
create and articulate the narratives about what that
future could look like, and then thinking about, as Sarah said,
that process, right, if that's where we want to get to, that's
us projecting that idea forward. This is how we can achieve that.
So for me, it's really harnessing and really exploring
the that role as a projector because we are now really
drawing on our historical contribution.
You know, that idea comes from the foe.
It's, it's not us, it comes from the foe's work, really thinking
about the historical contribution that projects have
had, as we said to economy and society and to the development
and really trying to connect that more strongly to the
profession's contribution to now the environmental, the society
aspirations of the future. Just trying to, to bridge those.
So that for me is a really important thing that we that is
worth exploring. Sorry, just for listeners who
might not know who you mean by Defoe, who are you talking
about? He's the one that wrote the book
and I have it here. Danny Defoe, a tour through the
whole island of Great Britain. So he was actually working for,
I can't remember which king you're going to put me on the
spot, but presented the idea to the king of investing in
projects for enhancing the development of the country, and
he came up with the idea of the projector.
Which century was that? So yeah, defo 1697 is the quote.
So that's good homework for listeners if they want to find
out more, go and look him up. Were there any other
recommendations or findings that you wanted to talk about
particularly? We make recommendations for the
APM in terms of looking at how we can develop a profession,
really focusing on leadership development for the profession.
Think we also make recommendations about the role
of APM in helping develop some sort of framework to help the
profession. I suppose measure the
sustainability practises if you like.
So that's something that came out of the report.
Yeah, I mean, Sarah, were there any challenges or
recommendations? Sorry, any recommendations you
you wanted to discuss? I just think it's, well, we're
talking about our own work. So, so I hope this doesn't come
across as, but I think the beauty of this report is that
there are recommendations for, for everyone, you know, every,
every, at every level at every stage of, of career.
If you look at, you know, the project managers and project
scholars as well, and I guess everyone can, can pick what's
you know resonates well with, with what they're doing in the
context of their work. For me, what, what was, you
know, the, the highlight of, of the report, I think it was on,
on the role of, of human beings in projects.
So starting with the role of the project leader, the importance
of the role of a project leader beyond just being basically an
administrator, someone who just does project reviews and looks
at timelines and you know, all these baselines, but actually
the effect that they can have on the project team and on the the
outcome of the project. So, so the importance of the
role of the project leader and skills that they need to develop
as a project leader to successfully take the team or
you know, go from point A to point B as we say.
So bring that change which is intended by the project.
So what? What would be?
What would be a key skills that a successful project leader in
2025 would need to have in order to achieve that?
So, well, I think this would probably go beyond this kind of
the scope of this podcast because there's a wide range of
obviously hard and soft scales if we want to just kind of
really on a nut in a nutshell, I, I guess it's being open, open
to the changes, being flexible and adaptable to their
environment. But one element which is quite
very close to my heart as well is, is the equality, diversity
and inclusion element and the importance of it beyond just
performative kind of, you know, ticking the boxes really.
So it's not just so nice to have.
It's, it's necessary in this era that principles are implemented
in every, every project organisation and every project.
So at every level really. And how, how well is the
profession, just anecdotally or whether you've done research on
this or not, but how well is the profession doing on this, on
this particular trajectory? Well, I guess there's a
recognition of it. So the conversation again, it's
part of, you know, it also kind of it's under the bigger
umbrella of sustainability. So the conversation has begun.
There's awareness, but there's a, there's a gap between being
aware of it and being actually able to implement it in
day-to-day activities. It's very sector, it's very
different from sectors to sector.
So I think it's, it's no secret that the construction sector
obviously has traditionally been, you know, male dominated
and the culture is quite different from from other
sectors because of the nature. Of of the work.
So it, it depends. I, I think there's definitely
has, has been advancements and developments, but there's a long
way to go and that's in every of, of EDI.
So it's not just gender quantity, there are lots of
other elements in other areas that we need to take into
account. Can I just build on on what
Sarah was saying about this sort of the the your question around
what skills, leadership skills and how is the profession doing?
So in the report we had, we do highlight, you know, there is a
need to think more broadly in terms of those leadership
capabilities for how we lead projects in the future.
And if, if we want really put the project profession to have a
seat at that senior level, boardroom at corporate level,
then we really need to think about this.
So we do talk about some, we talk about more leadership
capabilities or domains rather than specific skills and we
present the leadership models. So one of the, we have 5, let's
say, key things that project leaders need to to recognise
that their capability to project, to create that vision
of the future, their capabilities also to make sense
of that context, that changing context and be able to
articulate that sense made their ability to develop
relationships. So they're relating
capabilities, which links to, you know, their stakeholder
engagement to their teams and their creativity, their ability
to be innovative, to think of different ways of doing things
and not sticking to all patterns.
But with all of those things together, you know, if you if
you're able to, to make sense with others, if you're able to
create that compelling vision of the future, you can also
generate new and better ways of doing things.
And then at the centre, I think that's the key capability that's
bringing all those together is your ability of judging, making
judgments, your wisdom, in other words, that builds on all that
experience, all that intuition, your own values.
And that's what's important. And we see that now with many
organisations that we've been working with that want to
develop their project leadership capabilities.
This is something that we work with them to say, OK, how can
you develop and enhance those to think more strategically so you
can have those conversations at their corporate level as well as
with with their project delivery team or with their suppliers or
with their contractors, subcontractors, etcetera.
So many interesting things you've mentioned.
I've never heard someone ask project leaders to be creative,
But you're so right, because it's about problem solving, it's
about innovation. And that, I mean, it sounds
really interesting. I'm, you know, maybe I'll become
a project leader one day, but it's, it's so much to, to take
in. I you've been talking about
projectors, but that leads me to ask about the future.
So you've kind of taken stock of where we've been for the past
five years and longer, But how, where will the future take the
profession and how optimistic do you feel about the future for
the profession? Sarah, if you want to, if you
would like to give your views first, that'd be that'd be
great. Right.
So I think your question has two parts.
So the first one is how, how the project will, how the project
profession will will change over in the next in the future.
Well, I guess, I guess the challenges that we, we already
mentioned kind of it's maps to, to, you know, the changes that
will will come again. And I, and I suppose it's, you
know, it's become a cliche because everyone's talking about
generative AI these days in every context.
But but it's important. It's going to change things,
it's going to change everything. And again, this goes back to to
development of skills for. For project.
Leaders and, and, you know, the profession as a whole, I think
it's very important that the the profession recognises that
generative AI will become a part of, you know, part of how we
work. It's, you know, there's lots of
resistance against it, I know, especially in in certain
sectors, but we have to accept it and we have to learn how to
to best take advantage of it. So I think part of the report,
it is a nice kind of summary of three ways that, you know,
generative AI can be used. And it's important that project
leaders recognise which one to use at what stage of the project
and what, you know, when to use it really.
So one of them is, is that generative AI is going to
automate lots of the work that we do.
It can. The second one is that you can
assist us in the ways that we do things and, you know, at a
higher level, it can actually help with complex decision
making. So I guess it's important that a
project leaders kind of, you know, develop the skills to, to
make a decision or a judgement on when to use generative AI,
how to use it so that, you know, the, IT can kind of help the
project to succeed and achieve its, its vision.
And also, obviously, again, this goes hand in hand.
Projects are becoming much more complex.
So the traditional project management methodologies.
So the volume of data that we have and the velocity of the
data and the variety of the data.
Again, I'm taking this from the report.
It's going to overwhelm the traditional project management
methods. So, so we can't really continue
doing the same thing with, you know, with data that we have
today and the size and scope of the projects.
So it's about using the right tools for analysing and being
able to to act on the data that we can collect and it's
available to projects. That's a yeah, very interesting
point. I hadn't no one's ever mentioned
that before. The fact that it can be
overwhelmingly amount of data. So things cannot carry on as
they they have been if you're going to use that in any kind of
useful way. Thank you.
Sarah. Eunice, was there, was there
anything you wanted to raise? What does the future hold for
the project profession? I wish I was.
I'm not in Oracle. I wish I was.
You don't have a crystal ball. I.
Don't have a crystal ball prediction as Neil, Neil Sport
said is very difficult, especially when we want to
predict the future. So I think again, it's building
on the trends that have been reported and of course the
things that we're seeing right day-to-day and that we're
experiencing as as Sarah said during as as we are managing our
projects. I think the future offers great
opportunities and challenges. I mean, that's that's the world
we live in. I think there are two things
that we need to consider. The first one, as Sarah said,
the implications of digitalization for practise all
the elements that she she mentioned and consider also how
the profession is set up for the challenges of addressing Net 0
alongside the SDGS, although those will are coming up soon.
Let's see what the UN comes up with.
But I think those are still valid.
So I think building on the point that Sarah made is really posing
back the question to the profession, what do you need to
change and how are you going to change to be able to really take
on board both the challenges and the opportunities of
digitization and of addressing the net zero challenges and the
profession From the focus groups we did, they're very aware, they
recognise them. I think they just need some
support and overarching framework that will just
principles. I would say this is these are
the principles we're working towards as a profession and
they're ready, they're ready to respond.
They just need those guiding principles.
And I think that's where APM can help to set that framework and
those guiding principles for the profession, then to continue
thriving and continue to contribute to to the society and
to be able to meet those challenges for the future.
Thank you. Eunice, if there's one thing
that you'd like listeners to take away from this podcast,
what what might that be a thought or an action?
What, what springs to mind, Sarah?
Yes. So it was difficult to choose
one area because, you know, the report touches upon lots of, you
know, a diverse range of areas. But again, so, so it's my
personal choice of what I think, you know, what kind of I can
personally relate to. And I think it's very important.
I think again, it goes back to the, to the project leaders
role. And I believe if I want to just,
you know, put a keyword out, I think ethical leadership,
probably ethical leadership kind of, I think it nicely covers all
that needs to be to be done. So because most of the
challenges that we face these days and we talk about climate
change, inequality, all these kind of technological
disruptions, environmental issues, they're all really kind
of deeply societal and human challenges really.
So it's important that project professionals also recognise
this, acknowledge it and also take make ethical decisions
during the project. I, I read an article a few weeks
ago and I thought that, that I found it very interesting was
that, you know, one of the things that we or project
managers are told or have been traditionally told was that, you
know, we're a project manager needs to be objective.
But maybe maybe they shouldn't, maybe they shouldn't be
objective. Maybe they should actually
question the ways of working or question the status quo and also
invite others in their capacity as a project leader, bring that
change into the their teams as well and, and question the ways
of working and the values. And that was that is only the
only way that, you know, you can, we can make sure that
obviously the principles of EDI and you know, the sustainable
development goals are actually going to be hopefully achieved.
It's it's, it's the first steps towards that direction, let's
say. Well, I mean, that's brilliant
because I think of project professionals as being change
makers. They make change happen.
And I think many people that I've I've interviewed over the
past few years have they feel that agency and the fact that
they can, they can change things.
So as an individual, when you're approaching a project, how can
you become an activist and and with a very small a but to make
the change you want to see happen.
So that that shines very well. Thank you.
Eunice, what would be your kind of parting thoughtful listeners?
I think I'll build on Sarah's point about that ethical
leadership. I was thinking about really
asking our, the project profession to really reflect on
their role within the context that they they work in, within
that context that we've described.
Think about their role and their responsibilities because that's
going to frame their decision making.
But really think about where their areas for development are.
So recognise their strengths, but really identify where their
areas for development are giving this change in context and
restart thinking about where that continuous learning needs
to take place. So I would say what's think
about your learning journey, that path, where do you want to
go to given giving this changing context?
I think for for the project profession, we need to really
start thinking about upscaling and rescaling.
I think for me, that's part of the culture that the profession
should have, giving that we are agents of change.
That's what projects are the mechanisms.
For delivery change. A mechanism for delivering
change. Absolutely right that I was just
about to say that's the perfect way turn to podcast.
I thought you'd give me lots of food for thought, but I feel as
though you've given me an entire tasting menu.
There's so much to eat up there. So there's there's something for
everyone. And it just leads me to to kind
of thank both of you for sharing your research with us.
And for those who are listening, if you want to find out more
about the Projecting the Future report, you can get hold of a
copy on the APM website. You'll find all the details
there. So just leaves me to say, don't
forget to look out for more episodes or to rating reviews
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