1 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,080 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:19,880 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,400 the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,440 in this podcast. I'm speaking to Doctor Sarah 5 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,200 Haji Kazemi and Professor Eunice Matarina Sanchez, 2 co-authors, 6 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,800 along with Graham Winch of AP M's latest report Projecting for 7 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,000 the Future, Harmonising Energy and environment. 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,720 Sarah is senior lecturer in engineering project management 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,120 at Queen Mary University of London and Eunice is professor 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,760 in project management at Alliance Manchester Business 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,680 School. APM launched Projecting the 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,680 Future in 2019 to debate the challenges and opportunities for 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,360 the profession. Building on the 2017 Future of 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,800 Project Management exercise conducted by Arab and University 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,000 College London, this latest study represents A5 year update 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,760 on The Big Conversation and was conducted to provide insights 17 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,240 into what the profession sees as the most important future trends 18 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,040 that are likely to impact the way project managers practise 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,760 their profession. To identify what might need to 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,640 change in its professional practise as we progress. 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,760 Sarah and Eunice are here to present some of the findings 22 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,960 report covers and to give you an overview of its recommendations. 23 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:34,320 There'll be plenty food for thought, so welcome Sarah and 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,800 welcome Eunice. Thank you for finding the time. 25 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,200 Thank you for having. Us it's a pleasure. 26 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,400 I I think it would be useful for people to get a bit of 27 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,840 background on the projecting the future research APM has been 28 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,040 involved with over the past five years. 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,600 Do do you want to give us a bit of background? 30 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:00,560 So the background, so as you said this, this goes back quite 31 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,800 a while back through that initial conversation that APM 32 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,520 started in that those leadership thought leadership initiatives. 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,160 So it builds on that work that Arab and UCL did in 2017, really 34 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,440 trying to understand what the future of project management 35 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,920 was. And they identified those seven 36 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,960 global trends that would impact the way that we manage projects. 37 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,560 So shifting a work patterns, for example, the way that the 38 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,160 decentralizations of working, the shift in innovation cultures 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,360 in many organisations, automation and so on. 40 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:39,320 And that report concluded with a call for further reflection on 41 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,200 the future of the profession. And that, of course, was taken 42 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,280 up by Tim Banfield. And that led to a series of 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,600 those golden thread conversations, which led to 44 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,880 those six very useful papers where they identified. 45 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,200 So these are the big trends that we're seeing that will really 46 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,080 have an impact on the profession. 47 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:04,080 So AI, big data, climate change, the changes in demographics, so 48 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,760 the ageing population and the impact that would have in terms 49 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:11,080 of our the need of our infrastructure, transport, smart 50 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,520 cities, urbanizations, really thinking now in terms of systems 51 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,720 of systems and again, the future of work and scales. 52 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,000 So overall, those reports really aim to show the importance of 53 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,440 projects, how important projects and how important the effective 54 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,120 management of projects are not only to the UK society but also 55 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,680 to the economy. So this is almost the third 56 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,440 cycle of reflection. That golden thread conversation 57 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,600 was of course paused because of the COVID pandemic. 58 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,080 So we wanted to, you know, bring it up, bring it back to life. 59 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:52,200 And so this report really is the opportunity to have that third 60 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,360 cycle of reflection really thinking more in terms of what 61 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,520 does this mean for net 0 targets, for example? 62 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,880 So this is really huge big picture stuff about societal 63 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,400 trends, economic trends, environmental trends, which is I 64 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,040 imagine it's a hugely important thing to read for project 65 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,600 managers and project leaders to put everything into context and 66 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,399 picks up. And as he said, the system of 67 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:19,200 systems, because everything's connected. 68 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,200 And it seems to me that more and more as as projects go forward, 69 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,080 that you can't just do it in isolation. 70 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,560 I mean, everything is linked to the benefits are linked and the 71 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,400 outcomes are linked. So this is really interesting 72 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,440 stuff. So I wonder what has been 73 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,920 achieved by the profession over the past five years. 74 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,000 You've got this big kind of bigger perspective. 75 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,720 So with your kind of lens on things, what would you say the 76 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,200 achievements have been? Yes. 77 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:53,200 So obviously it's Needless to say that projects have always 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,560 made and they continue to make huge contributions to the 79 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,040 economy and to the society all around the world. 80 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,200 But if you want to specifically say what has been achieved by 81 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,960 the profession in the past five years, I think we can look into 82 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,720 how they have actually changed or managed to adapt to the new 83 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,440 trends. So we can see that, you know, 84 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:25,040 projects and we're talking about UK and mostly the developed 85 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,120 countries, but they have managed to adopt more effective project 86 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,520 management methodologies, agile hybrid approaches have the use 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:39,080 of them have increased in every sector, digital tools and 88 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,640 technologies. Obviously they have 89 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,960 revolutionised the the management of projects and also 90 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,200 the the profession has has managed to, to to a high degree, 91 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,320 adapt to the new trends. Basically in this area as well, 92 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,880 there's been a huge change in the way of working and I think 93 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:04,680 this is probably post COVID, the remote working which has again 94 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:09,600 changed almost every sector, including the project, the 95 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,800 project management profession as well. 96 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:20,720 And obviously there has have been lots of development in 97 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,240 developing the skills for virtual working and remote 98 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,080 working as well. And I can say finally, probably 99 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:34,880 there's there's much more focus on obviously sustainability, at 100 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,360 least in the conversations within the profession. 101 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:42,120 Now it's it's a different thing if you know if everything, all 102 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,120 the sustainability principles are actually being implemented. 103 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,880 But at least the conversation has very seriously begun. 104 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,720 Yeah, absolutely. I agree with all those points. 105 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,120 I think, you know, in the report we look back at where we have 106 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,600 been, where we are now and where we we could go, where we might 107 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,040 go in the future. And the points that Sarah made 108 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,560 are very much linked to what we've seen, what was noted in 109 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,120 the trends. But what has a project 110 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,160 profession achieved in the past five years? 111 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,240 For me, I can go a little bit beyond, if you may, how we 112 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,920 responded to the pandemic and the role that projects, the role 113 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,200 that the profession made to that response was incredible. 114 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,760 And I think as a profession, we should be really, really proud 115 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,920 and really say, look at what we can achieve in in those moments 116 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,400 of crisis, how flexible, how adaptable, how responsive we 117 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,200 are. And it links to that point that 118 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,360 Sarah made. The other thing that really 119 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,560 resonates with me and it's also the role projects are playing 120 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,560 and have played in relation to responding to the grand 121 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,760 challenges. And we can see many examples of 122 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,640 those to be able to respond. And I think that also offers 123 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,880 additional challenges, brings additional challenges to the 124 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,040 profession, but also great opportunities. 125 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,720 And I think something else is the I think more and more you 126 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,400 hear, especially in own organisations, the importance, 127 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,080 the importance of projects for achieving their strategic goals. 128 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,360 So we know that as a profession, we've been talking about that 129 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,600 for decades now. But I think now it's really 130 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,520 being recognised how important projects, programmes and their 131 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,440 effective management are to that strategic level of the 132 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,520 organisation and how important it is to have a project 133 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,400 professional sitting at that C-Suite level. 134 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,039 So some really big thoughts there. 135 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,520 I think you've perfectly both of you have captured that, that 136 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,720 bigger picture. And I feel it's almost the 137 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,400 trajectory of project management and it's professionalisation as 138 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,800 well and the seriousness with which it's now taken. 139 00:08:57,560 --> 00:08:59,800 I don't know. I interviewed people throughout 140 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,760 the pandemic and the project professionals who were keeping 141 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,680 companies afloat that the companies turned to them to make 142 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:10,440 their retail business online only. 143 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,320 You know, finding the vaccine was a project and I think it did 144 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,520 an incredible amount to boost the kind of reputation for the 145 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,280 professional, give people a greater understanding of what it 146 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,440 actually meant means to be in project management. 147 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,680 So it's nice to hear that you would agree with that. 148 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,800 I guess we've covered a bit about how projects themselves 149 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,000 have been changing over the past five years, and you've talked 150 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,440 about various ways of running projects. 151 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:40,320 And I guess that taps in to the mindset, you know, to thrive 152 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,440 these days. You know, it's about having 153 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,920 adaptability, about being, having greater agility. 154 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,320 So for people who are listening, we've got the kind of big 155 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,520 picture context. But if you were to speak to an 156 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,280 individual who's listening right now and give them advice about 157 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,560 how they should approach their projects, is there a particular 158 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:07,640 mindset or point of view that they should take? 159 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,560 Because everyone talks about the constantly changing world. 160 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,080 I mean, it's a roller coaster right now, isn't it? 161 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:18,240 Is there any anything you've noticed that you'd pass on? 162 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:25,320 I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all advice is for 163 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,680 me, it's a really focus on the on the outcome. 164 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,480 And we've started to hear more and more on that rather than 165 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,160 just, you know, traditionally project management was all about 166 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,840 deliver the output, do the work, deliver the output. 167 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,200 But actually it's not about that. 168 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,480 It's really thinking about that long term strategic outcome. 169 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,480 What's the value, what's the benefit that's that output will 170 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,320 deliver for the owner and operator? 171 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,680 And I think it's that's, that's important to keep in mind, as I 172 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:03,960 say to our executives and our students, you know, that's the, 173 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,680 for me, that's your North Star, That's you should that's your 174 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:10,560 guiding light. So always focus on on the 175 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,360 outcome, really be outcome focus or if you want that mindset of 176 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,600 outcome focus and really trying to recognise that value is 177 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,640 important. Thank you. 178 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,320 Eunice. Sarah, is there anything you 179 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,440 wanted to add to that? Yes. 180 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,800 Well, while I fully agree with with what Eunice said, I want to 181 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,400 also bring another angle. Yes. 182 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:38,480 So the, the kind of having that value oriented kind of mindset 183 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,280 and seeing the outcome is obviously very important, but I 184 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,640 think it's also as important to have a focus on, on the process 185 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,960 as well. So how we kind of, you know, 186 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,640 lead from from point A to point B and what needs to be 187 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,000 recognised in a close throughout that process. 188 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,040 So you mentioned Emma in the, you know, in your question that, 189 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,440 you know, we are in a, in a constantly changing environment 190 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,680 and there's a need for adaptability, high level of 191 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:11,760 adaptability and flexibility. So the first step, I think, or 192 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,200 the first kind of recommendation would be to acknowledge that we 193 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:22,560 are in a very volatile market and environment and there's need 194 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:27,000 for kind of changing the mindset of we've always done it this way 195 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,960 because it's, it's not going to work like that. 196 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,880 Things are, you know, changing dramatically, you know, with I 197 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,800 guess everyone's, you know, thinking about generating of AI 198 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,240 and how you know, everyone's lives are going to change 199 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:45,240 because of that in every, every aspect of life. 200 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,560 So really having kind of being ready to accept that there are 201 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,600 changes and we need to be adaptable and flexible. 202 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,520 And we can't really confidently say this is the way we've done 203 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,720 it in the past 30 years, especially, you know, those are 204 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,400 more experienced. And that's how we should 205 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,000 continue to do it. So I think there's a need for a 206 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,600 shift in the mindset. That's really interesting. 207 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,240 One of the questions I had was around the the biggest 208 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,040 challenges that have sprung up over the past five years and you 209 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,120 already there mentioned generative AI is, is that is 210 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,160 that whole area the the biggest challenge facing project 211 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,800 professionals? Yes. 212 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,440 So that the disruption of new, the new and rapid pace of 213 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,040 technology change as Sarah was saying, yes, absolutely. 214 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,160 But that has been, we've always talked about that, haven't we? 215 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,040 I think it's now it's just that pace of change and the, as Sarah 216 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:48,080 said, how the profession really needs to adapt, to stay updated, 217 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,680 to really think about how they're going to integrate all 218 00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:56,840 that into their ways of working into those processes, into the 219 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,960 practises, how you scale and upscale or rescale for that. 220 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,000 And that's really that's resource intensive. 221 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,880 So it's really, as Sarah said, requires a change of mindset. 222 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,920 We can't continue to managing and delivering the projects the 223 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,560 way we have done because our context is changing. 224 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:19,360 And it's recognising that things that are continue to be 225 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,880 challenge challenges is the resource managing and retaining 226 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,840 our resources. And that's been a point of 227 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,440 discussion over many years, but we still have it. 228 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:37,200 You know, you come, you develop published the reports indicating 229 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:42,800 how many project managers are required over the next 10 years 230 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,960 in these different sectors. And the demand for project 231 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,840 managers is out. You know, for me it's 232 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,440 incredible. And, and there's still needs to, 233 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,400 we still need to be able to manage and develop and retain 234 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,200 those resources. Perhaps also another challenge, 235 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,920 building on what Sarah said, is that adapting to new ways of 236 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,840 working, new working practises, new working patterns. 237 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,040 It's important the given the context that we're living in 238 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:19,200 now, also being able to deal with uncertainty and that fast 239 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,640 change that requires a different mindset as well. 240 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,280 And of course, I think for me, it's the last point before I 241 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,040 hand over to Sarah, is really thinking about how we integrate 242 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,960 both the environmental, the social considerations into the 243 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,880 project. That continues to be a big 244 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,040 challenge. As Sarah says, we talk about it, 245 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,240 but I we know from at least from our focus groups, you know, that 246 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,960 still contains well, how do we make that happen practically? 247 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,960 What does that look like? We need more skills, we need 248 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,600 knowledge and we really need to think about how we're going to 249 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,200 measure it. What does that look like? 250 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,440 I couldn't agree more with, with the points Eunice made. 251 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,400 And I can, I can build on, on the, the final point that Eunice 252 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,360 mentioned that we're, we're, and, and this is again, not, not 253 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,400 just Europe, not just UK, but you know, it's, it's a global 254 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,440 kind of shift that we're moving away from fossil fuel based 255 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,600 economy to renewable energy based economy. 256 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:23,760 And, and this raises lots of lots of challenges on its own 257 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:29,120 with obviously less resources, obviously, so kind of limited 258 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,280 resources, but also a much stronger emphasis on 259 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,760 sustainability. And that is in every all the 260 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,880 three pillars of sustainability. So society, social 261 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,840 sustainability, environmental and economy as well. 262 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,840 So I guess if we want to summarise it's I think 263 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,880 generative AI and moving away from fossil fuel based economy 264 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,160 is are the main 2 challenges for the profession. 265 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,440 OK, thank you. But we've spent a lot of time 266 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,280 talking about the challenges. What about the findings and 267 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,280 recommendations from from the survey? 268 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,960 There were ten I think. So could you talk us through 269 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,920 some of the most important ones because we won't be able to 270 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,480 cover all of them, but if there were, you know, a few that you 271 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,200 wanted to talk about, that would be really interesting. 272 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:15,319 In in the report, when we look back at where the profession has 273 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,560 come from, the contribution it has made, when we look at it 274 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,480 through the lens of the industrial revolutions, I think 275 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,440 one thing that certainly comes out that we, we should I suppose 276 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,600 be more vocal of, of is the profession's ownership of the 277 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:38,800 role of the projector. Our role is projecting to that 278 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,680 future. What do you mean by that? 279 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,520 What? What is the projection? 280 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,600 What do you mean projecting? One of the key capabilities we 281 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,400 see as as part of the as a project manager project 282 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,720 professional is their ability capability of visioning. 283 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:59,760 You know, we talk about projects as future orientated endeavours. 284 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,080 We project an idea forward, and indeed, that's where the term 285 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,720 project comes from, to project to throw an idea forward in, in 286 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,720 space and time. And that's what we mean by the 287 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,600 projector. So really thinking about how we 288 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,960 create and articulate the narratives about what that 289 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,440 future could look like, and then thinking about, as Sarah said, 290 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,040 that process, right, if that's where we want to get to, that's 291 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,920 us projecting that idea forward. This is how we can achieve that. 292 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,840 So for me, it's really harnessing and really exploring 293 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:44,000 the that role as a projector because we are now really 294 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,640 drawing on our historical contribution. 295 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,720 You know, that idea comes from the foe. 296 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,760 It's, it's not us, it comes from the foe's work, really thinking 297 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,400 about the historical contribution that projects have 298 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,560 had, as we said to economy and society and to the development 299 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,680 and really trying to connect that more strongly to the 300 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:11,480 profession's contribution to now the environmental, the society 301 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,120 aspirations of the future. Just trying to, to bridge those. 302 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:20,440 So that for me is a really important thing that we that is 303 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,200 worth exploring. Sorry, just for listeners who 304 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,480 might not know who you mean by Defoe, who are you talking 305 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,840 about? He's the one that wrote the book 306 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,160 and I have it here. Danny Defoe, a tour through the 307 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,160 whole island of Great Britain. So he was actually working for, 308 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,240 I can't remember which king you're going to put me on the 309 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,960 spot, but presented the idea to the king of investing in 310 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:53,080 projects for enhancing the development of the country, and 311 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,200 he came up with the idea of the projector. 312 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:02,320 Which century was that? So yeah, defo 1697 is the quote. 313 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,200 So that's good homework for listeners if they want to find 314 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,760 out more, go and look him up. Were there any other 315 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,680 recommendations or findings that you wanted to talk about 316 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,400 particularly? We make recommendations for the 317 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:23,000 APM in terms of looking at how we can develop a profession, 318 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,760 really focusing on leadership development for the profession. 319 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:34,000 Think we also make recommendations about the role 320 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,720 of APM in helping develop some sort of framework to help the 321 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,520 profession. I suppose measure the 322 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,040 sustainability practises if you like. 323 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,200 So that's something that came out of the report. 324 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,280 Yeah, I mean, Sarah, were there any challenges or 325 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,760 recommendations? Sorry, any recommendations you 326 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,000 you wanted to discuss? I just think it's, well, we're 327 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,880 talking about our own work. So, so I hope this doesn't come 328 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,680 across as, but I think the beauty of this report is that 329 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,720 there are recommendations for, for everyone, you know, every, 330 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,600 every, at every level at every stage of, of career. 331 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,720 If you look at, you know, the project managers and project 332 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,640 scholars as well, and I guess everyone can, can pick what's 333 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,200 you know resonates well with, with what they're doing in the 334 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,320 context of their work. For me, what, what was, you 335 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,800 know, the, the highlight of, of the report, I think it was on, 336 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,840 on the role of, of human beings in projects. 337 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,960 So starting with the role of the project leader, the importance 338 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,280 of the role of a project leader beyond just being basically an 339 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,320 administrator, someone who just does project reviews and looks 340 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,840 at timelines and you know, all these baselines, but actually 341 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:59,200 the effect that they can have on the project team and on the the 342 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,040 outcome of the project. So, so the importance of the 343 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,080 role of the project leader and skills that they need to develop 344 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,520 as a project leader to successfully take the team or 345 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,240 you know, go from point A to point B as we say. 346 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,520 So bring that change which is intended by the project. 347 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:18,840 So what? What would be? 348 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,760 What would be a key skills that a successful project leader in 349 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,800 2025 would need to have in order to achieve that? 350 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,440 So, well, I think this would probably go beyond this kind of 351 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,200 the scope of this podcast because there's a wide range of 352 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,800 obviously hard and soft scales if we want to just kind of 353 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,680 really on a nut in a nutshell, I, I guess it's being open, open 354 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,080 to the changes, being flexible and adaptable to their 355 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,680 environment. But one element which is quite 356 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,480 very close to my heart as well is, is the equality, diversity 357 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,000 and inclusion element and the importance of it beyond just 358 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,520 performative kind of, you know, ticking the boxes really. 359 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,200 So it's not just so nice to have. 360 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,560 It's, it's necessary in this era that principles are implemented 361 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,000 in every, every project organisation and every project. 362 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,080 So at every level really. And how, how well is the 363 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,880 profession, just anecdotally or whether you've done research on 364 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,560 this or not, but how well is the profession doing on this, on 365 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,400 this particular trajectory? Well, I guess there's a 366 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,000 recognition of it. So the conversation again, it's 367 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,880 part of, you know, it also kind of it's under the bigger 368 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,640 umbrella of sustainability. So the conversation has begun. 369 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,200 There's awareness, but there's a, there's a gap between being 370 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,240 aware of it and being actually able to implement it in 371 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,480 day-to-day activities. It's very sector, it's very 372 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,280 different from sectors to sector. 373 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,560 So I think it's, it's no secret that the construction sector 374 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,520 obviously has traditionally been, you know, male dominated 375 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:07,000 and the culture is quite different from from other 376 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,560 sectors because of the nature. Of of the work. 377 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,040 So it, it depends. I, I think there's definitely 378 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,480 has, has been advancements and developments, but there's a long 379 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,280 way to go and that's in every of, of EDI. 380 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,240 So it's not just gender quantity, there are lots of 381 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,400 other elements in other areas that we need to take into 382 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,040 account. Can I just build on on what 383 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:39,880 Sarah was saying about this sort of the the your question around 384 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,080 what skills, leadership skills and how is the profession doing? 385 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,440 So in the report we had, we do highlight, you know, there is a 386 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,040 need to think more broadly in terms of those leadership 387 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,120 capabilities for how we lead projects in the future. 388 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:59,960 And if, if we want really put the project profession to have a 389 00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:06,400 seat at that senior level, boardroom at corporate level, 390 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:07,920 then we really need to think about this. 391 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,400 So we do talk about some, we talk about more leadership 392 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,560 capabilities or domains rather than specific skills and we 393 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,920 present the leadership models. So one of the, we have 5, let's 394 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:26,080 say, key things that project leaders need to to recognise 395 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,720 that their capability to project, to create that vision 396 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:36,880 of the future, their capabilities also to make sense 397 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,880 of that context, that changing context and be able to 398 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,120 articulate that sense made their ability to develop 399 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:45,840 relationships. So they're relating 400 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,040 capabilities, which links to, you know, their stakeholder 401 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,320 engagement to their teams and their creativity, their ability 402 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,160 to be innovative, to think of different ways of doing things 403 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,200 and not sticking to all patterns. 404 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,840 But with all of those things together, you know, if you if 405 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,520 you're able to, to make sense with others, if you're able to 406 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,360 create that compelling vision of the future, you can also 407 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:17,200 generate new and better ways of doing things. 408 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,280 And then at the centre, I think that's the key capability that's 409 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,600 bringing all those together is your ability of judging, making 410 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,120 judgments, your wisdom, in other words, that builds on all that 411 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:36,280 experience, all that intuition, your own values. 412 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,720 And that's what's important. And we see that now with many 413 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,680 organisations that we've been working with that want to 414 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,400 develop their project leadership capabilities. 415 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,520 This is something that we work with them to say, OK, how can 416 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,760 you develop and enhance those to think more strategically so you 417 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,000 can have those conversations at their corporate level as well as 418 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,360 with with their project delivery team or with their suppliers or 419 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:06,800 with their contractors, subcontractors, etcetera. 420 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,960 So many interesting things you've mentioned. 421 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,560 I've never heard someone ask project leaders to be creative, 422 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,120 But you're so right, because it's about problem solving, it's 423 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:22,440 about innovation. And that, I mean, it sounds 424 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,520 really interesting. I'm, you know, maybe I'll become 425 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,120 a project leader one day, but it's, it's so much to, to take 426 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,560 in. I you've been talking about 427 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,080 projectors, but that leads me to ask about the future. 428 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,200 So you've kind of taken stock of where we've been for the past 429 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,720 five years and longer, But how, where will the future take the 430 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,360 profession and how optimistic do you feel about the future for 431 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,080 the profession? Sarah, if you want to, if you 432 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,280 would like to give your views first, that'd be that'd be 433 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,760 great. Right. 434 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,800 So I think your question has two parts. 435 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,800 So the first one is how, how the project will, how the project 436 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,200 profession will will change over in the next in the future. 437 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,720 Well, I guess, I guess the challenges that we, we already 438 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,640 mentioned kind of it's maps to, to, you know, the changes that 439 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,400 will will come again. And I, and I suppose it's, you 440 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,760 know, it's become a cliche because everyone's talking about 441 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,080 generative AI these days in every context. 442 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,280 But but it's important. It's going to change things, 443 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,240 it's going to change everything. And again, this goes back to to 444 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,320 development of skills for. For project. 445 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,320 Leaders and, and, you know, the profession as a whole, I think 446 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,040 it's very important that the the profession recognises that 447 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,600 generative AI will become a part of, you know, part of how we 448 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,080 work. It's, you know, there's lots of 449 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,160 resistance against it, I know, especially in in certain 450 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,520 sectors, but we have to accept it and we have to learn how to 451 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,040 to best take advantage of it. So I think part of the report, 452 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,240 it is a nice kind of summary of three ways that, you know, 453 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,680 generative AI can be used. And it's important that project 454 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,360 leaders recognise which one to use at what stage of the project 455 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,600 and what, you know, when to use it really. 456 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,440 So one of them is, is that generative AI is going to 457 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,400 automate lots of the work that we do. 458 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,640 It can. The second one is that you can 459 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,120 assist us in the ways that we do things and, you know, at a 460 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,240 higher level, it can actually help with complex decision 461 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,480 making. So I guess it's important that a 462 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,760 project leaders kind of, you know, develop the skills to, to 463 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:47,240 make a decision or a judgement on when to use generative AI, 464 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:53,800 how to use it so that, you know, the, IT can kind of help the 465 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,200 project to succeed and achieve its, its vision. 466 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,760 And also, obviously, again, this goes hand in hand. 467 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,680 Projects are becoming much more complex. 468 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,160 So the traditional project management methodologies. 469 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,280 So the volume of data that we have and the velocity of the 470 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,000 data and the variety of the data. 471 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,680 Again, I'm taking this from the report. 472 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,640 It's going to overwhelm the traditional project management 473 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,800 methods. So, so we can't really continue 474 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200 doing the same thing with, you know, with data that we have 475 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,760 today and the size and scope of the projects. 476 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:37,840 So it's about using the right tools for analysing and being 477 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,440 able to to act on the data that we can collect and it's 478 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,520 available to projects. That's a yeah, very interesting 479 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,520 point. I hadn't no one's ever mentioned 480 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,240 that before. The fact that it can be 481 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,240 overwhelmingly amount of data. So things cannot carry on as 482 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,880 they they have been if you're going to use that in any kind of 483 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,160 useful way. Thank you. 484 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,000 Sarah. Eunice, was there, was there 485 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,680 anything you wanted to raise? What does the future hold for 486 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,280 the project profession? I wish I was. 487 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,720 I'm not in Oracle. I wish I was. 488 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,720 You don't have a crystal ball. I. 489 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,640 Don't have a crystal ball prediction as Neil, Neil Sport 490 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,160 said is very difficult, especially when we want to 491 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,720 predict the future. So I think again, it's building 492 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,440 on the trends that have been reported and of course the 493 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,840 things that we're seeing right day-to-day and that we're 494 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,600 experiencing as as Sarah said during as as we are managing our 495 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:39,720 projects. I think the future offers great 496 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,760 opportunities and challenges. I mean, that's that's the world 497 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,040 we live in. I think there are two things 498 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,240 that we need to consider. The first one, as Sarah said, 499 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,400 the implications of digitalization for practise all 500 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,640 the elements that she she mentioned and consider also how 501 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:03,800 the profession is set up for the challenges of addressing Net 0 502 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,200 alongside the SDGS, although those will are coming up soon. 503 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,520 Let's see what the UN comes up with. 504 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,120 But I think those are still valid. 505 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:22,160 So I think building on the point that Sarah made is really posing 506 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,640 back the question to the profession, what do you need to 507 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,600 change and how are you going to change to be able to really take 508 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,880 on board both the challenges and the opportunities of 509 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,840 digitization and of addressing the net zero challenges and the 510 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,800 profession From the focus groups we did, they're very aware, they 511 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,080 recognise them. I think they just need some 512 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,160 support and overarching framework that will just 513 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,760 principles. I would say this is these are 514 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,000 the principles we're working towards as a profession and 515 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,040 they're ready, they're ready to respond. 516 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,800 They just need those guiding principles. 517 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:08,280 And I think that's where APM can help to set that framework and 518 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,840 those guiding principles for the profession, then to continue 519 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:18,200 thriving and continue to contribute to to the society and 520 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,000 to be able to meet those challenges for the future. 521 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,520 Thank you. Eunice, if there's one thing 522 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,080 that you'd like listeners to take away from this podcast, 523 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,400 what what might that be a thought or an action? 524 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,880 What, what springs to mind, Sarah? 525 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,040 Yes. So it was difficult to choose 526 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,440 one area because, you know, the report touches upon lots of, you 527 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,000 know, a diverse range of areas. But again, so, so it's my 528 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,520 personal choice of what I think, you know, what kind of I can 529 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,160 personally relate to. And I think it's very important. 530 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,360 I think again, it goes back to the, to the project leaders 531 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,600 role. And I believe if I want to just, 532 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,760 you know, put a keyword out, I think ethical leadership, 533 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,920 probably ethical leadership kind of, I think it nicely covers all 534 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,600 that needs to be to be done. So because most of the 535 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,679 challenges that we face these days and we talk about climate 536 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,360 change, inequality, all these kind of technological 537 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,400 disruptions, environmental issues, they're all really kind 538 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,920 of deeply societal and human challenges really. 539 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,120 So it's important that project professionals also recognise 540 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:49,679 this, acknowledge it and also take make ethical decisions 541 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,480 during the project. I, I read an article a few weeks 542 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,240 ago and I thought that, that I found it very interesting was 543 00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,280 that, you know, one of the things that we or project 544 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,880 managers are told or have been traditionally told was that, you 545 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,640 know, we're a project manager needs to be objective. 546 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,400 But maybe maybe they shouldn't, maybe they shouldn't be 547 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,880 objective. Maybe they should actually 548 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,640 question the ways of working or question the status quo and also 549 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,720 invite others in their capacity as a project leader, bring that 550 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:21,280 change into the their teams as well and, and question the ways 551 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,800 of working and the values. And that was that is only the 552 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,080 only way that, you know, you can, we can make sure that 553 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,440 obviously the principles of EDI and you know, the sustainable 554 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,760 development goals are actually going to be hopefully achieved. 555 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,520 It's it's, it's the first steps towards that direction, let's 556 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,360 say. Well, I mean, that's brilliant 557 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,080 because I think of project professionals as being change 558 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,760 makers. They make change happen. 559 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,600 And I think many people that I've I've interviewed over the 560 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,320 past few years have they feel that agency and the fact that 561 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,320 they can, they can change things. 562 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,160 So as an individual, when you're approaching a project, how can 563 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:04,600 you become an activist and and with a very small a but to make 564 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,560 the change you want to see happen. 565 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,000 So that that shines very well. Thank you. 566 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,720 Eunice, what would be your kind of parting thoughtful listeners? 567 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,720 I think I'll build on Sarah's point about that ethical 568 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,040 leadership. I was thinking about really 569 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,760 asking our, the project profession to really reflect on 570 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,680 their role within the context that they they work in, within 571 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,440 that context that we've described. 572 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,280 Think about their role and their responsibilities because that's 573 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,240 going to frame their decision making. 574 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,240 But really think about where their areas for development are. 575 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,240 So recognise their strengths, but really identify where their 576 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,680 areas for development are giving this change in context and 577 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,040 restart thinking about where that continuous learning needs 578 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,560 to take place. So I would say what's think 579 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,320 about your learning journey, that path, where do you want to 580 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,920 go to given giving this changing context? 581 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,120 I think for for the project profession, we need to really 582 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,040 start thinking about upscaling and rescaling. 583 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,080 I think for me, that's part of the culture that the profession 584 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,400 should have, giving that we are agents of change. 585 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,280 That's what projects are the mechanisms. 586 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,680 For delivery change. A mechanism for delivering 587 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,120 change. Absolutely right that I was just 588 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,360 about to say that's the perfect way turn to podcast. 589 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,480 I thought you'd give me lots of food for thought, but I feel as 590 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,560 though you've given me an entire tasting menu. 591 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,040 There's so much to eat up there. So there's there's something for 592 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,440 everyone. And it just leads me to to kind 593 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:48,480 of thank both of you for sharing your research with us. 594 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,560 And for those who are listening, if you want to find out more 595 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,360 about the Projecting the Future report, you can get hold of a 596 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,600 copy on the APM website. You'll find all the details 597 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,240 there. So just leaves me to say, don't 598 00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,480 forget to look out for more episodes or to rating reviews 599 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,600 wherever you get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 600 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,200 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 601 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,400 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. And Spotify users can also send 602 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,680 us feedback directly within the Spotify app. 603 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,480 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 604 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,480 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 605 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,720 visit apm.org.uk.