1 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,600 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,000 the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, and I'm 3 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,320 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,080 today. In this podcast, we're tackling 5 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,600 the future of nuclear energy and I'm joined by three guests who 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,320 were all working at the very forefront of developments within 7 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,800 the UK and further afield. We have Nigel Khan, the joint MD 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,080 of Sizewell C, who has 45 years of nuclear experience under his 9 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,840 belt, working at every level and on numerous types of reactor. 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,200 We also have Carol Tansley, Vice President for Projects for X 11 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,760 Energy, an advanced nuclear reactor and fuel company that 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,760 designs small modular reactors. And finally, we have Stuart 13 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,200 McLaren, Head of nuclear energy Sector Director at WSP, who 14 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,160 joined the consultancy earlier this year. 15 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,280 I just want to begin by saying welcome to all of you. 16 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,640 Thank you for sparing your time to talk to APM Podcast. 17 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,080 A nice way to start perhaps would be if you could tell us a 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,240 little bit about yourselves, a very brief overview of your 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,960 current responsibilities and kind of what you're working on 20 00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:24,800 right now. So perhaps Nigel can can we 21 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,040 start with you? Sure. 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,880 I'm Nigel Can. I'm the joint managing director 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,480 of Size will See. So Size will see is the second 24 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,960 of a series of EPR construction projects in in the UK and 25 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:42,480 Suffolk. And at the moment, you know, we, 26 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:47,640 we've gone through all our kind of planning, design, financing 27 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,640 and we're now into full scale construction activities at the 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,000 site. OK. 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,000 Thank you. And Carol? 30 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,640 I'm Carol Tansley. I'm the Vice President of 31 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,920 projects at X Energy. We are the designer and 32 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:05,080 developer of an advanced small modular reactor, the XC 100 and 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,240 the fuel that powers it are Trisox pebbles, which look like 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,720 this. And I am currently based in 35 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,880 Rockville, MD, our headquarters in the United States. 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,560 As well as looking after our overall portfolio of projects, 37 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,520 I'm currently also acting as the project Control Centre Director 38 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,240 on our first project with Dow Chemical. 39 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,440 We're building A4 pack of our Xe 100 plants at their seed drift 40 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,960 site in Texas and I'm leading that. 41 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,880 OK, great. And and Stuart, tell us a bit 42 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,280 about your role. Yeah. 43 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,200 So I'm the head of nuclear here at WSP. 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,760 So I'm sort of responsible for looking at the whole of our 45 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,240 nuclear sector across the whole value chain. 46 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,840 So whether it's the fuel cycle, new build generations of the 47 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,920 existing power stations and all across the waste and 48 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:58,040 decommissioning space. And I guess you know, what's 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,200 keeping us busy at the minute is size, well, the, the big GW sort 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,280 of developments. But, but, and some of the really 51 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,560 exciting stuff around SMRS, AMRS and just seeing how the nuclear 52 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,920 sector is really evolving and how we're having to react to 53 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:16,920 that as, as the supply chain to, to these amazing projects. 54 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:21,000 So really exciting time to be involved in this sector. 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,200 So I think it's exciting times for this country's nuclear 56 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,520 future. I think Energy Secretary Ed 57 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,320 Miliband said it was EU KS golden age of nuclear energy 58 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,080 dawning. And are we to believe him? 59 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,880 Yes, well, yes. So having just been involved in 60 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,840 two sort of the GW projects, I think, I think for nuclear, the 61 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,600 opportunity really is to kind of look into the future really as 62 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,240 to what energy demand looks like. 63 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,440 And I think both the Gigawalt projects I, I've been involved 64 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,720 in have really been focused on stabilisation of the grid and 65 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,920 making sure you've got big spinning magnets when you've got 66 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,880 kind of lots of renewables on the grid. 67 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,920 And, but I think the future really lies within more kind of 68 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,240 embedded nuclear generation around data centres around, you 69 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,079 know, potentially supply and other big demands across, across 70 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:23,720 the UK. And then, and then really, I 71 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,360 mean, we've faced 2 challenges really. 72 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,880 One around energy security. So I think, you know, there's a 73 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,840 small island need to make sure that, you know, we're in control 74 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,120 of our own energy supplies. And the secondly, we need to 75 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,520 make it affordable and we need to make it fit for purpose. 76 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,560 I, you know, we, we provide what the customer needs. 77 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,200 So, you know, if you're going to build big data centres right 78 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,920 near, you know, nuclear, nuclear potentially right next to big 79 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,600 populations, then then you need the right technology to do that. 80 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,240 OK. And and Nigel, you've been in 81 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,240 nuclear so 45 years around that, is that true that long? 82 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,720 I've yeah, I did start very young, I have to say that. 83 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,680 Yeah. Yeah, I know. 84 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,840 So I've seen, I mean, I've seen the industry change a lot. 85 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:12,520 I mean, I joined a Magnox Rector down in Dungeness. 86 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,800 I it was a 16 year old apprentice and you know, and 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,280 I've I've, I've gone, I've worked on pretty much every 88 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:19,800 technology that's survivor in the UK. 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,640 So I was, I've worked on Agls both as a station director and a 90 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,240 plant manager and also the PWR outsizable as the plant 91 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,360 managers. So yeah, I've seen the whole of 92 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,120 what the UK industry has to offer. 93 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:35,920 OK. I'll come back to you on that. 94 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,200 If I may, I would just like to add to what Nigel said. 95 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,560 I mean, I, I think there's been a, a huge change just in even 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,000 the last 10 to 15 years. I, I've only been in the nuclear 97 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,880 sector since 2014 when I joined the Baraka project in the United 98 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,240 Arab Emirates. And when I first moved into 99 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,080 nuclear then I had so many people say to me, why on earth 100 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,760 would you want to get into nuclear? 101 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,400 You know, it's a dying sector and I think it's probably the 102 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,080 most vibrant growing sector now. And as Nigel said, you know, 103 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:12,120 energy security, the net 0 imperative, AI and cloud 104 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,560 computing's all driven this. And I think as well, you know, 105 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,840 also back to your point about are we in a golden age of 106 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:23,120 nuclear? I think we're seeing huge 107 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,240 commitment from the government in the UK, governments around 108 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,800 the world, the US, Canada, and I think it's one of the sectors 109 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,280 that has genuine by parties and support. 110 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,880 And I think, you know, we've seen in the UK, as we've seen 111 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,560 with sizeable seers, Nigel will be very well aware government 112 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,240 commitment to investment in that, as well as the selection 113 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,440 of the Rolls Royce SMR. And I think the key now is what 114 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,920 we really need to see is a way for the government to give 115 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,320 private investors confidence to unlock the private capital to 116 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,080 help us with fleets of of reactors. 117 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,400 Because that is, you know, as Nigel said, the spinning magnets 118 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,040 in in order to get the kind of reliable base load that we need 119 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,240 and the capacity we need. That is really the key to that. 120 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,880 So I think certainly from my perspective, I would say I think 121 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,120 we're on the cusp of a golden era, but we're not quite in it 122 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,200 yet. But all all the signs are 123 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,400 positive and I think everybody's very optimistic about it. 124 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,880 I, I completely agree with that. And I, you know, this is a 125 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,640 really exciting time and it does feel very different from before, 126 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,440 not least because nuclear and sort of someones turn the, the 127 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,800 volume up on it. But there's new technologies. 128 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,680 It's, it's a much more diversified portfolio of 129 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,960 solution and how it can be applied, which is a real step 130 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,440 change to what's probably gone on from the previous few 131 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,960 decades. But I guess within that I think 132 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:50,840 there is and I think you may be alluding to it is the challenge 133 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,480 of delivery like the golden age only gets realised if we can 134 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,240 actually deliver to the business case. 135 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,120 The business case is going to be founded on a certain return on 136 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:05,360 investment on on assurance of cost schedule programme and 137 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,200 particularly in the UK you know, we've seen that this this big 138 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,440 complex infrastructure programmes, critical 139 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,160 infrastructure solutions, they're really hard to deliver. 140 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,240 And I think it's incumbent on everybody in the entire 141 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,520 ecosystem to be pulling together to make sure that we can find 142 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,520 the delivery models to de risk the critical paths on these 143 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,880 really important programmes so we can get to that fleet and 144 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,760 actually prove that these things can be done. 145 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,000 And that's on the backdrop, I think of international 146 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,200 competition for all of this, this there's there's increasing 147 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,280 increasingly stiff competition for resources, for technology, 148 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,880 for investment. Like from an investor's 149 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,480 perspective, there is a challenge of where my, where's 150 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,920 the easiest place for me to make my money when it will be those 151 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,560 that have managed to crack the delivery model and can stand 152 00:08:57,560 --> 00:08:59,960 these things up faster and faster. 153 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,840 So I, again, to me, it's exciting. 154 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,800 I really want to see this happen like deeply, deeply for so many 155 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,560 reasons. And I think that means we all 156 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,960 have to come together and look at this very differently. 157 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,800 And if we feel like how we're turning up and delivering feels 158 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,600 like how we were delivering things 10 or 15 years ago, then 159 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,240 we're probably doing it wrong. And that's that to me is sort of 160 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,920 the litmus of are we, are we sort of heading in the right 161 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,400 direction? Is there much collaboration, is 162 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,680 there much kind of talking amongst different players in 163 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:37,000 this field to, to to kind of get to grips with the delivery 164 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,440 problems that have beset kind of major projects like this? 165 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,680 So from my perspective, yes, because I, I think, you know, to 166 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:49,120 the point that was just made there, I think we, we recognise 167 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,960 that this is a sector wide challenge and individual 168 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,080 companies are not going to crack it on their own. 169 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,560 I think there's, you know, we've seen huge commitment from the 170 00:09:57,560 --> 00:10:00,160 government. It's, you know, we, we need some 171 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,160 of the policies to, to follow on some of the commitments. 172 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,680 Now from a finance point of view, you know, and I'm sure you 173 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:09,600 know, colleagues at WSP are at the point end of things of 174 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,960 trying to grow the supply chain. I mean, one of the, one of the 175 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,360 challenges we've got here is that we haven't had a pipeline 176 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,880 of new bills to keep our supply chain exercise. 177 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,920 We haven't had them for decades. And now we've got to work 178 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,200 together with the government as the sector to build that supply 179 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,800 chain. But the, the point here is as 180 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,520 well about delivery model and that is on the individual 181 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,280 companies to work. But we need to find these models 182 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,880 where we can collaborate, we can bring all of the partners to 183 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,760 work together to solve the problems. 184 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,160 And I think one of the ways that we need to do that is by looking 185 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,360 at what's not only been successful in alcoholic, the 186 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,920 Asian context in getting to the fleet, the the ends of a kind 187 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,040 and the benefits that they've managed to accrue, but what we 188 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,120 can learn from other sectors. And I think there's also a 189 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,240 matter of making sure that we're looking at best in practise 190 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,200 delivery models. But we are being, we are 191 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,240 focusing relentlessly on execution about for example, not 192 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,560 creating problems for ourselves by starting execution before the 193 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,920 designs complete. You know, there are some 194 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,760 fundamental things that we need to get right here. 195 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,040 But we also need to make sure that we are focusing not just on 196 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,760 the first first of a kind or first in country projects and 197 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,680 delivering that acceptable cost and time, but also that there is 198 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:36,640 a clear and demonstrable learning curve to bring the cost 199 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,240 down. The timing to get the real 200 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,240 benefits from the fleet approach for the economy, for the supply 201 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,560 chain, for the the customer at the end of the day. 202 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,360 Thanks, Karen. Nigel, what do you, how would 203 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,160 you respond to that? This is the dilemma that Vices 204 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,160 saw really, I guess for us, there's two things really. 205 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,880 I think there could be more collaboration between various 206 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,320 nuclear utilities. There's a thing we've seen as 207 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,840 see ourselves a little bit as competitors, you know, and I 208 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,960 think we should, we should probably look at that. 209 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,000 I think there's also a realisation that that the first 210 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,960 of a kind of any reactor type is really quite difficult because 211 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,680 you have to build a supply chain so that you you nucleus quite 212 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:20,440 unique really. And it's kind of design 213 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,920 sequence, which generally has to involve a supply chain. 214 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,160 Because you know, if you're going to do a civil structure, 215 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,080 you need to know how much equipment's going to weigh and 216 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:30,720 where it's where it's going to connect connections are you 217 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:31,600 going to be. If you're going to do a 218 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,800 mechanical electrical design, you need to know the loads of 219 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,560 the equipment you're going to connect to. 220 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,920 So you you got this kind of perverse sort of step by step 221 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,400 design approach where you have to engage eventually a supply 222 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,920 chain that's going to provide the equipment and materials that 223 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,800 you need. And to do that, you know, for 224 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,040 the first of a kind is really quite difficult to do. 225 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,880 But once you've done that, you know, building another one and 226 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,800 another one and another one becomes much easier. 227 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,440 And then you can really focus in on what you can do as far as, 228 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,520 you know, efficiencies, effectiveness. 229 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,200 I have a big say in here at at size. 230 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,680 We'll see is that yeah, I don't want to change the what I'm 231 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,080 building, but I absolutely want to interrogate the how. 232 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,520 You know, I want to do more modularization. 233 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,240 I want to do more factory work. I want to do more off site. 234 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,680 I want to, you know, explore where I I can help. 235 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,320 I want to explore all these things in the how I don't want 236 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,640 to build a different power station because I'll be but 237 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,040 start and you know, you know, with all of this, you really, 238 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,440 really hope that you know, you know, both the X energy, you 239 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,360 know, the Rolls Royce SMR, etcetera. 240 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,760 You know, gets that first of a kind off the thing and just 241 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,120 accepts, you know that that's going to be quite difficult. 242 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:44,880 But but you know, the opportunity then to build, have 243 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,960 a plan that you're going to build a series of these things. 244 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,480 You know, will give the industry confidence, they'll give the 245 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,680 supply chain confidence and that'll help us build the scares 246 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:53,920 we need as well. Is is that something you've 247 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,760 taken from Hinckley as well that you're bringing to Site R? 248 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,040 Well, well, as I say, Hinckley, you know, pioneered is the first 249 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,640 of a kind. So you know it it kind of has 250 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,600 created the supply chain, it's qualified the equipment for us. 251 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,160 We haven't got any of that pain that we went through. 252 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,840 You know, I personally was at in two Point C So you know, the 253 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,760 benefit that really benefits us, that's ours. 254 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,320 We'll see. And it'll be exactly the same 255 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,720 for other technologies, whether it's SMRS or IMRS, you know, 256 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,000 just you need to accept the first one's quite difficult. 257 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,240 And then that'd be that to not build more than it's almost 258 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,080 criminal because you've you've got all the rest of success. 259 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,680 So you kind of got that recipe for success, but it's something 260 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,040 I know Professor Ben Flubier has written about and is quite keen 261 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,800 on this, that idea of modularity and always, you know, 262 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,400 replicating within reason what's been done before because it's 263 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,120 efficient and it works and you know, the risks with it. 264 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,680 Is that something that is, is that part part of kind of 265 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,120 futures success once once you've done that kind of first of kind 266 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,080 and moving on from? There that fleets into what I 267 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,560 said. So to modulize you need the 268 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,960 design. I have the design. 269 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,360 If you've almost nearly built one before, because you as I 270 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,320 say, you need the supply chain, you need the equipment and then 271 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,680 you can really modulize, you know, so I agree, but but that 272 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,000 can only be it can't be done at first of a kind. 273 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,400 It's almost impossible. So much as you know, when I was 274 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,960 the delivery director, I think I'd love to have modulized more, 275 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,400 but designers? Impossible. 276 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,120 Yeah, and I would agree with that. 277 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,640 And I think that the key to the modularization is having the 278 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,880 standardisation. The two things go hand in hand. 279 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,440 And it can't just be about the standard reactor design. 280 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,960 It's got to be about a standard, you know, project delivery 281 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,440 model. And I think that's what Nigel 282 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,920 was saying there about, you know, interrogating the how it's 283 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,400 got to be the whole thing, the whole project delivery playbook, 284 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,160 if you like about that, just become repeatable. 285 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,680 And with that repeatability, you get the learning by doing. 286 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,640 And that's where you get the efficiency gains and and and 287 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,920 travel the path from the first of a kind to the end of a kind. 288 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,680 Yeah. And if I can add, like obviously 289 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:07,200 where I sit in the supply chain, there's a lot of the roles that 290 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,640 we all take is sort of helping the delivery of the sort of like 291 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,520 try and move as much through the critical path, move stuff off of 292 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,440 the critical path. And as we were saying, sort of 293 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,680 with a, when you're looking at the benefits realisation of this 294 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,720 being contingent on fleet and actually getting to scale and 295 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,400 that replication that you can have that all established, you 296 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,800 can move to standardisation, then they're the sort of 297 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,400 outcomes that we need to stay. And Nigel, you sort of mentioned 298 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,000 about you want to look at how can AI help, how can sort of 299 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,520 digital modularization, DFMA, how can we really ramp that up 300 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,080 to a point that when you're on the 3rd, 4th, fifth one, like 301 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,720 the whole of the supply chain is singing. 302 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,520 But we've also then got to look at like commercial innovation as 303 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,320 well. Because obviously, again, I sort 304 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:54,920 of say from a supply chain, I'm not. 305 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,320 And this isn't me speaking on, but you can see the tension 306 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,040 within that it's in, it's like a vested interest of people for 307 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,680 these programmes to take longer because if the contracts are set 308 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,760 up such that you get paid on a day rate or, you know, on time 309 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,960 and materials, there's these horrible prefer perverse 310 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,920 incentives, which can sort of really get in the way of trying 311 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,960 to deliver those outcomes. So, you know, you, we're 312 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,760 increasingly seeing it, you know, project 13, thinking 313 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,839 enterprise solutions, alliancing, you know, these 314 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:28,800 things are going to be critical, I think in making sure that one, 315 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,520 having that collaborative mindset, having that outcome 316 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,840 based mindset ideally would be a behavioural cultural thing that 317 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,120 exists deep within our industry. But the reality is, is that 318 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,200 people get measured on on their commercial success. 319 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,160 How are we making sure that we're pushing the outcomes that 320 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:54,320 we seek in a way that is truly incentivizing acceleration? 321 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,640 Because as we've said, we only get to fleet if the money is 322 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,480 still coming in. The money's only going to come 323 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,560 in if we can prove that we can actually get to a scaled 324 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,840 solution. So you end up sort of chasing 325 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,240 your tail. And there's a lot still to be 326 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,680 done to make sure that when we start rolling out these new, 327 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,240 particularly in the SMR space and the AMR space, how are we 328 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,040 incentivizing the supply chain to deliver as quickly as 329 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,280 possible, but adopting those outcomes and really living and 330 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,080 breathing the outcomes that the clients are wanting to achieve. 331 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,240 And I think that's like, particularly for me, still a lot 332 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,680 of work to be done, particularly in the UK. 333 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,680 Just to play into the previous conversation really, I mean 334 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,520 commercial confidence and certainty are combined. 335 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,200 So I've never met certainly a civil contractor that I'll take 336 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:50,840 a lot of risk on in the first of a kind. 337 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,920 You've had much easier conversation when they're doing 338 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,480 it for the second, third and fourth time. 339 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,120 I can't think it's the same with equipment supplies. 340 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:01,480 I mean, just to give you an idea of kind of some real, real data, 341 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,920 I mean we're seeing like probably 10% of the non 342 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,400 conformances that Hinckley saw through their manufacturing 343 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,800 process or less. Now, if you imagine you had a 344 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,920 you're having a conversation with a contract and now about a 345 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,720 fixed price contract, they're going to be much more confident 346 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,280 to go for a fixed contract with that level of non conformances, 347 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:25,960 you know, compared to the first of a kind, you know, 90% not 348 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,080 well, it's unknown, isn't it? How many? 349 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,520 Well, you know, do you really want it that you're really sure 350 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,960 you want it that accurate? So you know, you, you, you the 351 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,960 commercial opportunities really open up. 352 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,800 I think the more that you've got certain. 353 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,360 So you know that that's the reality. 354 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,240 Nobody's going to risk their business, Certainly not not all 355 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:44,800 for one. You know, I mean, you know, 356 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,760 these people invest, I think, and it's the same guess we'll 357 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,840 get on to the conversation about people at some stage. 358 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,320 But if you're asking to invest in a factory and you're only 359 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,760 going to give them one to do and they're unlikely to do it, if 360 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,760 you're going to give them eight to do or possibly 8 to do, 361 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,800 they're more allowed to invest, they're more allowed to give 362 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,920 certainty, the better commercial conditions you're going to get. 363 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,440 Yeah. And I, I think if I could just 364 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,000 add to what Nigel said that I completely agree with that. 365 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,280 And what one of the things that we're seeing is that our 366 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,480 customers who do want multiple units, who do see themselves 367 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,480 having a fleet are willing to work with us and come to talk to 368 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,840 the suppliers to acknowledge the fact that they will be providing 369 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,360 the demand signal for that investment. 370 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,320 But I think just coming back, if I may, to the question about the 371 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,160 commercial models, I think one of the things that we do need to 372 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,680 explore is how the commercial models impact project delivery 373 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,280 and its success. And one of the things that we're 374 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,120 exploring is the use of integrated project management. 375 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,840 This is something that's been used on big critical and complex 376 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,440 infrastructure projects, primarily in Canada. 377 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,200 They've adopted it. But what where it's been seen to 378 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:56,760 work really well is on the more complex projects where you're 379 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,520 kind of starting with the first of a kind model. 380 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,840 And what this looks at is bringing all of your main 381 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,680 suppliers together, including the owner and the constructor 382 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,560 into a multi party contract and looking at risk sharing with 383 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,400 reward sharing and incentivizing the kind of collaborative 384 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,520 behaviours that you were talking about a few minutes ago where 385 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,800 all of the partners are incentivized to escalate 386 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,960 problems and to deal with them together. 387 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,960 And what they found there is it really helps to accelerate the 388 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,640 delivery and de risk the project. 389 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,760 And I think those kinds of things, while they may be novel 390 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,960 in the nuclear sector because they've been proven elsewhere, 391 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:41,400 we should be seeking to explore those and encourage the supply 392 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,000 chain to come into the project as early as possible. 393 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,640 It's really interesting as an outsider from from the nuclear 394 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,800 world that what you're actually talking about is behaviour. 395 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,160 So it's that kind of incentivization of everyone 396 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,560 collaborating and raising problems and being incentivized 397 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,480 to crack on and problem solve and get on with it and work 398 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,000 together to fix it. And also a matter of confidence, 399 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,600 I think, because what I've noticed as someone outside is 400 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,880 that there's greater confidence in the nuclear sex society. 401 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,200 This country before it had very bad PR 20 years ago off, you 402 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,040 know, more Chernobyl and everything. 403 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,160 And now it, I think, would you agree that it's become very much 404 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,800 part of this sort of sustainability, you know, net 405 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,160 zero, that there's a reason people are appraising it and 406 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,200 seeing it in a different way and that is giving confidence as 407 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:38,640 well. Is that something that you'd 408 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,080 agree with that this, this has become much more a kind of 409 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,520 critical, critical part of the sustainability in that zero 410 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,680 conversation that we're everyone's preoccupied with? 411 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,960 Yeah, if I could come in, I think, I think those agendas are 412 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,560 definitely helps. I think that the changing 413 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:04,240 geopolitical landscape has also really helps sort of really make 414 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,560 that point super clear to the to the people of which to be 415 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,120 honest, whichever country you're in, how critique is to have 416 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:15,400 sovereignty over your energy supply that you've got like firm 417 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,520 power, yes. And then if it can also be 418 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:22,640 clean, even better. I think the agenda runs the risk 419 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,760 of being undermined if we can't as an industry deliver. 420 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,560 And then as we've seen a single tweet these days or some kind 421 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,680 of, I don't know, a 30 character statement can can actually 422 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,080 torpedo entire policy sort of agendas nowadays. 423 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,880 It's it really doesn't take much with the right words being said 424 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,200 by the right person in the right channels can really destabilise 425 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,240 what previously would have felt like a fairly stable sort of 426 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,840 policy position and and so on. So I think we mustn't sort of 427 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,040 have any hubris in any of this. We need to sort of make sure 428 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,240 we're alert and alive that we this is as you're as good as 429 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,520 your last game in all of this. And that means everything we do 430 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,960 has got to be right. I think and increasingly so 431 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,480 because of the the fact that we have to get to fleet. 432 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,720 I think it's just incumbent on us to really, really turn up and 433 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,200 make sure that we can maintain where I think we've got to and 434 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,400 then and take it further. But I also think that there are 435 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,800 going to be challenges, particularly with the SMRS, 436 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,320 AMRS, micro reactors, these really novel sort of much, much 437 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:33,040 smaller units that because you can start to locate them in what 438 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,280 won't have been traditionally nuclear community spaces. 439 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,920 People like the idea of things when it's over there, but the 440 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,360 moment that it actually comes close to them, people's 441 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,800 perceptions can change. And I think because that's what 442 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,160 we're entering into is potentially these things being 443 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,360 located in lots of places that wouldn't have traditionally have 444 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,680 homed. Are we doing enough to truly 445 00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:02,160 educate, to engage and get the buy in and have the social 446 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,200 licence to operate around these things that when we are pushing 447 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,560 these things because the chance we're going to try and push them 448 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,680 fast, people don't feel like they're it's being forced on 449 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,600 them because again, these things could easily fall over. 450 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,840 So I think that's just something I think we are, again, we all 451 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,640 need to be watching vigilantly and being very, very proactive 452 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,920 and engaged. Where you have the operating 453 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,360 nuclear power plants, that's the heart and soul of a community. 454 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,120 You don't get people that are more prone nuclear. 455 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,480 But I think your point is right. You know, we will not get the 456 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,560 fleet roll out and unless we change the sighting policy and 457 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,360 it will be more flexible to allow us to site the the smaller 458 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,400 modular reactors either on an industrial facility or closer to 459 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,240 populations. And I think it is incumbent on 460 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,640 us to demonstrate the safety case and there is more community 461 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,920 outreach required. And this goes back to Nigel's 462 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,000 point at the beginning, I think about the need for collaboration 463 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,720 across the sector and to work with the government to make sure 464 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,960 that we are getting the message out there to bring the benefits. 465 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,920 And certainly what we seem to be seeing is that the younger 466 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,000 people are a lot more prone nuclear, they're a lot more 467 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,960 accepting the recognise as a clean technology. 468 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,040 But we can't be guilty of hubris around this. 469 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,440 We've got a lot of work to do and ultimately we have to 470 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,800 demonstrate that these reactors are safe to deploy, deploy close 471 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,840 to local populations. You know, I think we we owe a 472 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,880 debt relief to the existing nuclear opera as if operate 473 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,280 reactors in the UK safely, you know, since the 1960s, you know, 474 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,720 and that's that helps with our credibility. 475 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,000 I think, you know, I think also being honest and open is really 476 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,240 important part of our culture. And I think, you know, we have 477 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,440 to accept when you look at this, these are low carbon. 478 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,360 They do give you the energy security you need. 479 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:56,040 They do give you bikes load. They do, you know, provides, you 480 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,200 know, very well paid highly skilled jobs for many 481 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,960 generations. You know, there'll probably be 482 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,440 about 3 or 4 generations of people who work at size will 483 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,360 see. And you know, they do bring, you 484 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,320 know, a lot of prosperity to a supply chain as well, both in 485 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,680 support, in construction and in operation, you know, but then we 486 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,680 have to weigh that off. These things do generally take a 487 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,480 long time to build and they cost a lot of money and but they are 488 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,960 around for a long time. They do provide, you know, the, 489 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,000 the best power output per acre of any other technology. 490 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,720 And you, you know, and they have got that really low carbon 491 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,720 footprint, which I think is really important, you know, in 492 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,480 in the environment and world that we're in. 493 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,400 So, so I think we tick a lot of boxes, but we have to be very 494 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,200 open that that we're where there is shortfalls, we're open about 495 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,040 it and we deal with it. Yeah. 496 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,240 And I think humble in the face of what we're dealing with here. 497 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,160 So I think, I think we need to recognise that that we, we treat 498 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,160 this technology with respect. We we all do our best to deliver 499 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,120 them at acceptable cost and and in timeframes. 500 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,600 Should we move on to the people side of things because I guess 2 501 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,360 aspects that the people to follow up what we're just 502 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:09,440 saying. I was all sorting Nigel around 503 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:13,440 how important is engaging the local community around Sisol 504 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,440 Sea. I live in Suffolk and I read 505 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,960 locally that the you'd be investing in local kind of 506 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,560 skills. I think there's going to be a 507 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,120 college or. College on the coast is called 508 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,720 Yeah. Is it that's catchy, That sounds 509 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,080 quite nice, but it's nice that part of the case. 510 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,760 But how important is that? How, how, how do you go around 511 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,160 winning the local community? I mean, I know that they're 512 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,160 really used to having a nuclear facility there, but how do you 513 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:46,280 engage with the local community and sell this as a, as a good 514 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,280 thing for all the reasons you've stated? 515 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,960 And secondly, finding the people to work on these projects 516 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,880 because like you say, we had investments. 517 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,640 The UK, you know, was successful in this area in the 60s, 518 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,760 seventies. And I think that's lost a whole 519 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,280 generation of professionals who left the country and that's been 520 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,080 lost and it's creating it again or bringing talent from 521 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,280 elsewhere. So two things are people in the 522 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,440 local community, but also allied to building the skills you need 523 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,280 to create facilities like that, particularly around project 524 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,000 management and the opportunity there for the profession to 525 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,720 grow. So a lot to ask you there, 526 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:25,400 Nigel. So. 527 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,720 So, you know, without social licence you can't build, without 528 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,240 community support you can't build. 529 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,960 So you need to make sure you kind of listen to the community 530 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,120 in which you, you know, you want for your facility and you have 531 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,360 to understand them as well, you know, understand what drives 532 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,200 them, what you know, I've never met anybody that likes traffic 533 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,480 lights and cones, to be honest. So I mean, you have to work with 534 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,040 but but equally, you know, when you look, as you say, you know, 535 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,760 what, what communities generally want is, is, is to make sure you 536 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,360 protect what they hold dear. And so there's, you know, 537 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,520 certainly there's very different vibe from my experience at Incu 538 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,120 Point C compared with size. We'll see. 539 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,560 I think it's a different community. 540 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,040 They want different things. We've put a lot more effort 541 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:19,920 into, I'd say softer issues around, you know, arts and, and, 542 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,480 and kind of, you know, I would say kind of more peripheral 543 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,720 things, you know, that that you wouldn't expect a construction 544 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,160 project to be involved with, but, but that's important to the 545 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,040 lack of community. So so we we do it. 546 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,440 What do you mean by sorry? What do you mean by arts? 547 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,400 How do you get involved? We've run various programmes 548 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,360 where we engage in arts and locally music, you know, because 549 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,680 it's quite, it's quite that kind of community where, you know, 550 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,800 they, they even got me to play God, the voice of God in Noah's 551 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,600 flood. So they, you know, I mean, I'm 552 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,560 not a name for my autistician skills. 553 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,440 So you know, the so, so, but this is important. 554 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,520 You do that, I think and you know, certainly my other joint 555 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,360 managing director is much more in tune with this than me 556 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,200 really. But but you know, you know, you 557 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,760 know, really seriously. But but to get on to the point, 558 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,400 you know, young people want jobs as well. 559 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,840 You know, they want opportunity in an area where it's quite 560 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,640 difficult to get anywhere. So we we felt it's really 561 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,240 important to look at O 16 education, how you can get 562 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,360 people into into jobs and, but, and one of the bitter feedback 563 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,400 from from the local community we engaged was was your size will 564 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,400 be come and when you know, there was a boom and there was a bust, 565 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,800 how you're going to make sure you don't do the same again. 566 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,200 So so make sure we're leaving legacy. 567 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,440 We're looking to make sure, you know, the transport links we 568 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,560 create a really something that'd be a value later. 569 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,160 You know, the educational facilities that we put in place 570 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,800 that will be you of use later. Anything we build, we try and 571 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,760 look at it with through a lens of what kind of community or 572 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,160 others do with this after we're finished so that again, you 573 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,240 don't have this massive construction boom and then, you 574 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,720 know, there'll be some highly skilled jobs there, but it won't 575 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,160 cover the whole community. So perhaps I think, you know, 576 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,920 I'd really encourage others to do the same. 577 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,120 We, we've, we've worked hard. I mean, I'm not saying we're 578 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,320 always popular because, as I say, there's things that in 579 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,920 building huge infrastructure you have to, you know, 'cause some 580 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,920 disruption, but you know, you should look for a net game 581 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,080 wherever possible. What's, what's the opportunity 582 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,400 for the project management profession, I guess specifically 583 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,120 within the UK or if you want to speak beyond that is are there 584 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,000 enough, is there enough project management expertise in this 585 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,680 area? What needs to happen to make 586 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,000 sure that you have the right people working on on these 587 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,480 projects? And actually is part of that 588 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,840 what makes a successful project manager or project professional 589 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,640 working in an environment like this? 590 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,600 I was really my ears picked up. When you talk about openness, 591 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,800 transparency, collaborative kind of working, is that key to the 592 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,160 people? Is that key to their kind of 593 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,800 skill set or attitude that you want people to have that you 594 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,440 employ on your projects? I would say there's there 595 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,120 probably aren't enough and probably not enough for what is 596 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,240 coming. And that's not just nuclear, but 597 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,480 that's outside of nuclear. So if you look at the number of 598 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,920 Dcos that are being submitted in the UK this year. 599 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,600 Sorry, can you just say what? Can you just say what DCO is? 600 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,080 For, oh, sorry, say so, the DCO, the, the development consent 601 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,160 order. So these are the, the consented, 602 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,960 this is the consenting regime for getting major nationally 603 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,000 significant infrastructure programmes and projects to be 604 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,120 consented, to move forward to be constructed. 605 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,640 And there's about 35 of them being submitted this year, which 606 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,040 is twice the number of just a few years ago. 607 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,680 So, and interestingly and probably Nigel for you, the 608 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,040 majority of those around Suffolk, around the East of 609 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,200 England. So when you're actually then 610 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,600 mapping them and you heat map, where are all these major 611 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,200 infrastructure projects being deployed or actually they're 612 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,080 very heavily on the East Coast. A lot of that is energy related 613 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,720 because of a lot of the the offshore wind interconnectors 614 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,400 and so on. But what it means is an amazing 615 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,159 opportunity. There's going to be a huge 616 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:11,800 demand signal that's going to be sent out there because you're 617 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,679 going to need all of these, all these really complex programmes 618 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,040 that are all going to be being deployed all right next to each 619 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,800 other, all demanding the same thing, same resources, same 620 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,760 labour, limited supply chain. So I think actually it's going 621 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,960 to be a golden age for project managers because this is how are 622 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,000 we going to navigate what is going to become a sort of a knot 623 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,800 of major programmes all being delivered in parallel, all quite 624 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,120 close to each other. I think it's actually really 625 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,679 critical and all of these nationally significant 626 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,400 infrastructure projects, they all sort of leaning on each 627 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,400 other. This is all part of a systems 628 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,600 approach that the UK is trying to adopt and looking at sort of 629 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,280 what we need in critical national infrastructure systems 630 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,480 basis. So that sort of systems view I 631 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,480 think is also going to be a critical skill for really good 632 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,680 project managers, programme managers, to sort of really 633 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,640 understand the system in which they operate. 634 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,240 And again, experience is key. And I think the volume that's 635 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,280 coming, again, what a great opportunity for project managers 636 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,680 to get lots and lots of really rich experience that we can, 637 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,640 that we can use to help advance it like UKPLC as well and sort 638 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,320 of really, really, really drive things. 639 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,920 Yeah, if I may just build on that, I, I completely agree with 640 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,520 that. I think one of the huge benefits 641 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,080 about being in a project management professional is it's 642 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,920 a completely flexible set, you know, a set of skills and 643 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,160 expertise. You know, if I just look at my 644 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,920 own background, as I mentioned earlier, I've been in the 645 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,840 nuclear sector since 2014. Prior to that, all of my 646 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,960 experience was delivering major programmes for central 647 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,920 government. Big transformation projects 648 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,520 typically are with a big IT component in the UK and the 649 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,400 Middle East. And I was asked to join the NEC 650 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,720 Emirates Nuclear Energy Corporation project for my 651 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:02,440 programme management and project management background. 652 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,400 And, and I think to the point that was just made there about 653 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,120 the huge demand. I think one of the things we're 654 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,440 going to be seeing is re skilling and and mid career 655 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,120 transfers as well from other sectors such as oil and gas, big 656 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,880 capital infrastructure. But it is a hugely exciting 657 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,400 time. And I think the other thing 658 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,360 that, you know, I would say is there is a huge opportunity here 659 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,320 to bring more female project professionals into the sector. 660 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,280 You know, it females of typically being very 661 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,120 underrepresented in the section. We've seen a lot more interest 662 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,000 now and that is growing, particularly among the younger 663 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,920 population and a huge amount of enthusiasm for project 664 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,320 management careers in the sector. 665 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,920 Because I think somebody said earlier, the secure, the well 666 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,080 paid, you know, challenging in the right kind of ways and an 667 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,360 opportunity to do something that matters, you know, matters to 668 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,760 society now and will matter in the future. 669 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,280 And I think as a sector, we really need to lean into that 670 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,840 enthusiasm, you know, work together as individual 671 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,480 companies, as a sector with the government and, and really help 672 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,120 build the, the skills pipeline with skills providers to help 673 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,000 to, to grow the expertise in the sector. 674 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,800 Because I think people can have a hugely rewarding career here. 675 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,280 And I think we, as I said, we just need to lean into that 676 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,880 enthusiasm. As you said from I've recently 677 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,640 done a, a piece for you saying that I think project managers 678 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,600 are slightly underrated and as a profession and, and you know, 679 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,080 when you look what a project manager does, you mean it's 680 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,840 simplest form you, you kind of, you know, managing outcomes, but 681 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,960 you know, you deal with finance, you deal with reschedule, you 682 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,000 deal with communications, you deal with stakeholders, you deal 683 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,240 with massively complicated times. 684 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:49,160 Certainly in our sector interfaces you deal with 685 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,880 commercial outcomes. You kind of, you know, it's 686 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,480 hard. It sounds like you're a Prime 687 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,960 Minister to me. So you kind of, you know, I 688 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,840 think the profession offers a lot really. 689 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,040 You know, I'll go back. I mean, some of the huge 690 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,200 programme directors I've ever met, I mean some of them 691 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,720 previously run big businesses, you know. 692 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,280 So, so you know, that's the two the two things I'll link to me. 693 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,720 It's a great business background. 694 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,720 I think you know, to come in as an entry delivery project 695 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,800 manager and it's really open stores. 696 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,880 I think that's really true. And actually I've seen certainly 697 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,280 with, I think when you have successfully managed and 698 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,800 delivered a really complex programme like a nuclear GW 699 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,880 station, there's almost nothing you can't do as a professional. 700 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,240 There's almost nothing that is going to be any more complicated 701 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,720 than going to challenge you anymore as a programme manager, 702 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:46,240 as a project manager, like, and it's, it's so impressive when 703 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:48,360 you see those people then sort of whether they stay in the 704 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,080 nuclear sector or whether they then go into other sort of 705 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,040 sectors, how they can sort of boss it to be honest, because 706 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,920 it's such an incredibly rich training ground for like we've 707 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,840 mentioned, like the interfaces, the integration of incredibly 708 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,920 complex programmes. I think exactly right. 709 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,360 And a lot of those people actually can go off and do start 710 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,040 their own business, go and do anything they like. 711 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,200 And I just think that again, if you can get that at scale, wow, 712 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,200 again, UKPLC, what a what a great benefit, I think. 713 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,400 I wanted to ask you Stuart and the others actually, because he 714 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:30,600 talks about sort of systems and do you feel that there is a kind 715 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:37,440 of coherent cohesive UK strategy towards nuclear energy and, and 716 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,120 how important is there recognition of how important 717 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,200 that is to powering the UK economy? 718 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,440 So I'm surprised to to hear that you do think there is kind of a 719 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,040 greater joining of the dots particularly around major 720 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,360 infrastructure projects. Is that something that's come 721 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,680 from this government or do you or do you feel as a natural 722 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,720 trend towards this or if not, does it need to be accelerated? 723 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,840 Others might be able to speak more confidently to this than 724 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,960 myself, but certainly from from what I see, I think there's 725 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,840 absolutely an approach with the systems operator, you know you 726 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,120 would need. So there's absolutely a drive to 727 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,640 take a systems view of the energy system. 728 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,840 I think it's acknowledged that's what we need and there's some 729 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,600 great progress. I think when you step out, I 730 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,840 think there's still a lot of things that we need to get right 731 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,480 in order for that to actually happen. 732 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,560 And that's intent and doing are two sort of quite different 733 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:33,800 things. So I think there's still an 734 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,960 awful lot of doing. It's great that we've got the 735 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,640 intent, we've identified the problem and the sort of general 736 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,400 solution space we need. But then again, when you step 737 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,400 out and actually look at things that aren't in the energy 738 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,600 sector, but they are all buying for the same thing, I talked 739 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,600 about those 35 Dcos who are going to service all of those 740 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,040 things. Where's all that labour coming 741 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,640 from? All the resources, the supply 742 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,680 chains that need to be deployed, things like social value, I 743 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,600 imagine every single one of those Dcos are all, all those 744 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,400 projects will go through varying types of procurement from lots 745 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,440 of different organisations all saying they want to deliver 746 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,600 social value. Is that coordinated? 747 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,880 Like are we pooling all of those commitments in a way that can be 748 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,760 greater than the sum of its parts? 749 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,560 And you know, my suspicion and I don't know this for sure, but my 750 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,240 suspicion is that they're probably not aware of what this 751 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:27,120 project over here is committing or what this supplier has said 752 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,080 in this tender versus that tender. 753 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,000 And so I think there's there are some in May. 754 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,720 Again, it's all upside. I think the opportunity here for 755 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:37,520 us to come together and be really smart with how we can 756 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,360 deliver these national needs that are emerging out of these 757 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,320 really impressive projects, I think is is there for the 758 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,840 taking. Does anybody else want to add to 759 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,040 that? I would if I may, Emma, please. 760 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,200 I mean, I think there is real recognition of the role that 761 00:41:54,200 --> 00:42:00,200 nuclear has to play as part of society and for the the UK 762 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,760 economy and the global economy. And I think there's no shortage 763 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,360 of technologies to help deliver that. 764 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,880 And I think the government has clearly demonstrated its 765 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,880 commitment through the financial commitment reached FID in June 766 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,120 this year. On size, we'll see. 767 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:19,120 And with the procurement of the Rolls Royce SMR product as well. 768 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,680 I think though in terms of your question about is there a 769 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,280 strategy, I think there's some of the building blocks that we 770 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,240 need to make sure that we do get a cohesive strategy. 771 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,040 I mean, just some examples. So I think we need an indication 772 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,800 of the quantum of nuclear that's required. 773 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,560 So by that I mean how many gigawatts like like we saw to be 774 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,760 fair, the last government had said 24 gigawatts. 775 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,840 And I think the reason we need that is it makes it real for 776 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,600 everybody. It makes it real for the supply 777 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,120 chain in particular. I think you know, to to leverage 778 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,200 on some of the points earlier. We need to make sure there's a 779 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,200 new sighting policy that's more flexible in allowing where the 780 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,200 reactors can be deployed. We need a financial framework 781 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,000 that helps to unlock the private capital by de risking first in 782 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,560 country projects or or first of a kind. 783 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,280 And to the point that Stuart was just making an industrial 784 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:16,080 strategy that helps to support investment in supply chain and 785 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,880 in skills. And I think also, you know, 786 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,680 coming back to regulation, we we need the, I'll call it removal 787 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,400 of some of the regulation that may be stifling safe progress 788 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,960 rather than enabling it. And I'm not in any way 789 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,080 suggesting that we, you know, lower our standards or we take 790 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,440 away any of the independence of the of the regulator. 791 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,560 But you know, if, if I just give you an example, in, in the 792 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,800 United States, we've seen clear commitment from the government 793 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,440 about shortening the regulatory period. 794 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,280 We've been given an 18 month construction permit application 795 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,080 window, which is the shortest that's ever been given. 796 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,760 And I think, you know, a lot of collaboration between the UK 797 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,840 regulator, the US regulator, the Canadian regulator to help 798 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,320 streamline that process. So I think that cohesive 799 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,800 strategy will only come if we get all of these building blocks 800 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,360 in place. And I think it's all recognised 801 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,280 and it's been worked on by the government. 802 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,800 But I don't think we're quite there yet with a a countrywide 803 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,360 strategy. It is is my perspective on. 804 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,640 Yeah, I think most people would agree with you, Nigel. 805 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:26,880 Was there anything you wanted to add? 806 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,360 Well, just, I mean, I, I agree with what Carol has just said. 807 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,440 I, I just just to go back to the point around national strategic 808 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,880 infrastructure projects sort of kind of working together. 809 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,280 I think with in Suffolk we are actually doing that. 810 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,720 So if you look at the lot of renewables, grid upgrades, stuff 811 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:51,120 that's going on in Suffolk and as we'll see, are working 812 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:57,440 together, but but it's been done through, I guess need rather 813 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,960 than, you know, strategic intent really. 814 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,960 So, you know, but, but if we hadn't done that, if we hadn't 815 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,520 worked with them, we would have dug roads up to us, we would 816 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,800 have doubled up on requirements. We wouldn't have shared 817 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,960 resources, we wouldn't have resource plans. 818 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,080 But so so I think, you know, it's important that, you know, 819 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,280 that need that's driven the the relationships in in Suffolk has 820 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,840 now taken nationwide so that we join this summer and there is 821 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,120 some vehicles to start to do that, especially with people. 822 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,360 So I mean, I'll sit on the Ambition skills board, which is 823 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,360 looking at construction sort of trade skills mainly. 824 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,760 But you know, I think, you know, the more you nationally join 825 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,200 these things up, the the better outcomes we'll get. 826 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,680 Yeah, 100% agree with that. So I mean a question I wanted to 827 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,200 put to all of you would be what are the biggest blockers to 828 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,680 continued progress and investment in nuclear? 829 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:55,280 One of those could be this lack of collaboration, maybe the lack 830 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,480 of people, the people available to do this. 831 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,280 But what would you say the biggest blockers and how would 832 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,800 how would you overcome them, Nigel? 833 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:08,360 If we specifically looking at nuclear, I think it's all about 834 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,840 certainty for me, I think I absolutely applaud what Carol 835 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,160 said. Pick some number that you need 836 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,800 what the demand LED is what you need it for. 837 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,240 Pick some technologies, give the supply chain confidence to 838 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:23,360 invest by giving them a number to go after. 839 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,360 And then we can get the people lined up as well, which is equal 840 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:31,920 input, takes as long. So it's about the the clarity of 841 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,000 the intent and need. Yeah. 842 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:38,560 And I would just amplify that again, I think one of the things 843 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,400 that are the critical thing has not just been supply side 844 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,600 shortage, it's been the absence of a demand signal. 845 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,360 And I think that's where to Nigel's point, we need that 846 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,400 clarity and consistency and certainty about what that is so 847 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,560 everybody can start to to ramp up to support it. 848 00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,800 I mean, I couldn't agree more. You know it's. 849 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,040 The word I keep hearing from everyone we engage with the 850 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,400 certainty that you know, how can we be, how can we drive that? 851 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,760 How can we de risk the critical path, How do we get to fit 852 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,920 quicker? How do we give those signals 853 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,880 clearly, yeah, but that's a project sort of level. 854 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,280 But again, it's Carol's point, the the signals of pipeline, how 855 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,160 are we building the pipeline and how are we sending those signals 856 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,040 out so that they can see that there's a long term commitment 857 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,440 and that gives people that, that, that confidence. 858 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,520 And you know, I guess from someone in the supply chain, I 859 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,520 think delivery credibility is another real big piece because 860 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,440 that's where the the certainty comes from is because we as an 861 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,240 industry have turned up and have shown these things are credible. 862 00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:46,400 You can construct them to a timeline, to a budget and you 863 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,160 can scale. And again, so come back to that. 864 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,040 What's incumbent on us? Well, we have got to get this 865 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,480 right. And I think that and get it 866 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,080 right. And then we've all got an 867 00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,160 incredibly exciting industry that will probably be gunning 868 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,720 for for decades. And that's that's what makes it 869 00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:07,000 so exciting. So, Stuart, that neatly segues 870 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,520 into my. Next question, which is what 871 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,840 does the future hold? How do you for nuclear energy 872 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:16,520 and how optimistic do you feel about it, Nigel? 873 00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:23,040 Well. I'm optimistic in, in the, the 874 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,200 task I've been given in the sense that, you know, building a 875 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,840 fleet, copying what somebody else has done is really good. 876 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,640 I'm, I'm really hopeful around the future of other 877 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,120 technologies. I, I really, you know, cheer the 878 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:37,720 cheer people on from the sidelines. 879 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:40,360 I think it's really important that we, you know, providing we 880 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,480 get that real policy statement about what people need when they 881 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,680 need it by, you know, there's no reason why, you know, other 882 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,760 technologies can't get the same certainty. 883 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,720 My money advices from my experience is don't bet your 884 00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:56,800 house on the first of a kind and, and just be realistic about 885 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:58,440 that. And, and I think that that's 886 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,560 going to be the challenge for new technologies coming in after 887 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,360 that. If you've got the certainty, if 888 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,960 you've got the programmes, you'll absolutely reap all the 889 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,760 rewards and benefits of of that kind of fleet. 890 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:14,200 Serious effect for a business, Yeah, I completely agree with. 891 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,640 That I mean I think, I think from an AMR perspective, if I 892 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,520 may, we've got 2 challenges. The 1st is you know as Nigel 893 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,000 just pointed out, the first of a kind demonstrating and for the 894 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,160 UK market 1st in country demonstrating that that can be 895 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,120 delivered at acceptable cost and time and then they become 896 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,680 predictable. And then the second challenge is 897 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,360 scaling to deliver the fleet, you know because that is the 898 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,440 theory of the case for SMR. So I think they are the 899 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,640 challenges and there's a huge prize if we can capture it and 900 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,000 that's what we're all working towards the moment. 901 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,360 So optimistic, but we've got a huge amount of work to do and I 902 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,720 don't think anybody's diminishing that. 903 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,880 Stuart, you feeling optimistic? I think the same. 904 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,880 I think there's a big upside. But it's not guaranteed. 905 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,560 There's a lot of work to be done for us to be able to prove it. 906 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,680 But if we can, then yes, I think it could be, you know, the 907 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,320 Renaissance. We think and hope that this 908 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,920 would be and it will move forward. 909 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,320 But I think we we've just got to get it right. 910 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,720 What's the cutting edge? Kind of. 911 00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:21,720 Innovations in this area because how does fusion fit into all of 912 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,720 this as well? So kind of in in the future, 913 00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:30,800 because I went to somewhere in England just West of Oxford 914 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,520 where they were decommissioning first fusion kind of 915 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,720 experimental plant there. And that was really interesting 916 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:42,440 to see that now there is a future in this technology. 917 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,120 Can it be proven to work Econography? 918 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,520 I don't know, but it's on that journey. 919 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,920 So if if you were to kind of catapult forward a couple of 920 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,520 decades, do you see a mix of different technologies then or 921 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,360 is there anything new that PAT systems haven't heard about or 922 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,200 or you know, might be interested in finding out about? 923 00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:06,360 Yeah, I think Fusion personally has. 924 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,680 Got a journey to go on I think, you know, to prove the 925 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,080 technology works on a commercial kind of scarred boxes is there's 926 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,720 a bit to do from a material science point of view on as I 927 00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:18,520 understand it, they profess to be an expert. 928 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:23,600 But you know, and again, you know, I think people absolutely 929 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,520 salute the investment that they've put me into at the time 930 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,320 of, you know, and the confidence that they is it's a technology 931 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,400 that will reap benefits for in the future. 932 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,240 But I thought it's any think in the next decade then, you know, 933 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:40,840 we need to focus on the other technologies and let fusion 934 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,360 continue to develop. Yeah, I would. 935 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,840 Completely agree with. That once again, I think, you 936 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,240 know, in a an economy that needs to be powered by abundant clean 937 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:55,560 energy, I think absolutely it could have an important role. 938 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,120 But I think even the proponents of fusion would recognise there 939 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,720 are some big technical challenges that they need to 940 00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:05,840 overcome, as Nigel just cited, particularly making sure it can 941 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,400 work commercially at scale. And I think therefore, we can't 942 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,560 rely on that coming. We can't bet that that will be 943 00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,840 the future. And therefore the task falls to 944 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,360 the proven technologies, including nuclear fission and 945 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,400 technologies that that we all bring. 946 00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:24,120 Yeah, I I just think. Fission's probably going to be 947 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:28,200 doing the heavy lifting for the next decade or two while these 948 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,840 other technologies try and find their feet, if they find their 949 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,560 feet. But I for now, I think we're, 950 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,480 yeah, all the heavy lifting done by what we what we have in front 951 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:37,080 of us. Yeah. 952 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,240 Well, it's time to wrap. Up so I perhaps the nice thing 953 00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:46,080 to ask each of you would be is is there a kind of lesson, a 954 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,720 lesson learned or any advice you'd pass on to project 955 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:54,280 management professionals looking to get ahead and in this world 956 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,520 I'll go to the. Voice of God first. 957 00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:04,400 Nigel. You know, my advice always with 958 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,000 people is never stop learning. Really. 959 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,360 I've I'll describe over in the year 45 of my apprenticeships so 960 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,480 far and I learned something different every day and great 961 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,000 project managers, you know, learn, you know, consistently 962 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,440 for every experience, you know, the the the only mistake you can 963 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:23,920 ever make is making the same mistakes. 964 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,400 What's wrong? So you know, I you know, I love 965 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,400 project management. I think it provides structure, 966 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,280 you know, and whatever you're doing really, and you know, and 967 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,240 just just use that structure. Continue to learn, listen to 968 00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:41,360 others. You're great teams, you know, 969 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:45,640 and what's not, what's not to like perfect Carol. 970 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,120 So anything you'd like to? Any thoughts you'd like to give 971 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,720 us? Again, completely agree with 972 00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:52,400 Nigel. I mean, as I mentioned a couple 973 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,280 of times, I've only been in the sector for the last 11 years and 974 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,640 it's been the most exciting and rewarding 11 years of my career. 975 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,240 Absolutely tremendous. And every day is a school day. 976 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,760 And so for people that want to continue to learn and grow in 977 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,600 their career, I couldn't think of a better place to do that as 978 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,560 a project leader. Great, Stuart. 979 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,480 Yeah, I I mean I. Echo everything there and I just 980 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,320 think that, as I said earlier, I think once you've cracked the 981 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,960 nut of these big, really complex programmes like your skill set 982 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,800 is is really on a parter to excellence. 983 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:28,840 It's it's but you get it right here. 984 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,280 You can do anything really so but it does take that desire to 985 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,240 learn keep learning never stops being steep learning Kevin, to 986 00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:40,080 be honest, when you look at the new technologies, new types of 987 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,760 delivery curve is probably only going to get steeper. 988 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,560 But you know, for those that want it, that's to me is super 989 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,440 exciting because it makes every day different. 990 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:50,760 Well, So what I mean I couldn't have. 991 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:52,680 Written these words myself that were brilliant. 992 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,760 Then my turn to podcasts. Such a positive notice of 993 00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,800 profession. So thanks very much. 994 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,360 It just leads me to say thank you again for your time. 995 00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:03,040 That's been a really interesting conversation and I wish we had 996 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,600 another two hours to I'll dive into some of the things I wanted 997 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,400 to ask you about. So we'll leave it there. 998 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,120 But thank you so much for your time. 999 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,440 It's been it's been great speaking to all of you. 1000 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,160 Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you very. 1001 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:18,880 Much thanks for the invitation. Good. 1002 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,280 Conversation thanks again to Nigel Carroll and Stuart for. 1003 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,280 Joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. 1004 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,600 Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rating 1005 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,600 reviews. Wherever you get your podcasts, 1006 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,840 we'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and 1007 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:39,200 suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 1008 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,960 Spotify and YouTube users, please do also leave us your 1009 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,440 comments. This podcast has been brought to 1010 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,720 you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. 1011 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,280 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.