Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, and I'm
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
today. In this podcast, we're tackling
the future of nuclear energy and I'm joined by three guests who
were all working at the very forefront of developments within
the UK and further afield. We have Nigel Khan, the joint MD
of Sizewell C, who has 45 years of nuclear experience under his
belt, working at every level and on numerous types of reactor.
We also have Carol Tansley, Vice President for Projects for X
Energy, an advanced nuclear reactor and fuel company that
designs small modular reactors. And finally, we have Stuart
McLaren, Head of nuclear energy Sector Director at WSP, who
joined the consultancy earlier this year.
I just want to begin by saying welcome to all of you.
Thank you for sparing your time to talk to APM Podcast.
A nice way to start perhaps would be if you could tell us a
little bit about yourselves, a very brief overview of your
current responsibilities and kind of what you're working on
right now. So perhaps Nigel can can we
start with you? Sure.
I'm Nigel Can. I'm the joint managing director
of Size will See. So Size will see is the second
of a series of EPR construction projects in in the UK and
Suffolk. And at the moment, you know, we,
we've gone through all our kind of planning, design, financing
and we're now into full scale construction activities at the
site. OK.
Thank you. And Carol?
I'm Carol Tansley. I'm the Vice President of
projects at X Energy. We are the designer and
developer of an advanced small modular reactor, the XC 100 and
the fuel that powers it are Trisox pebbles, which look like
this. And I am currently based in
Rockville, MD, our headquarters in the United States.
As well as looking after our overall portfolio of projects,
I'm currently also acting as the project Control Centre Director
on our first project with Dow Chemical.
We're building A4 pack of our Xe 100 plants at their seed drift
site in Texas and I'm leading that.
OK, great. And and Stuart, tell us a bit
about your role. Yeah.
So I'm the head of nuclear here at WSP.
So I'm sort of responsible for looking at the whole of our
nuclear sector across the whole value chain.
So whether it's the fuel cycle, new build generations of the
existing power stations and all across the waste and
decommissioning space. And I guess you know, what's
keeping us busy at the minute is size, well, the, the big GW sort
of developments. But, but, and some of the really
exciting stuff around SMRS, AMRS and just seeing how the nuclear
sector is really evolving and how we're having to react to
that as, as the supply chain to, to these amazing projects.
So really exciting time to be involved in this sector.
So I think it's exciting times for this country's nuclear
future. I think Energy Secretary Ed
Miliband said it was EU KS golden age of nuclear energy
dawning. And are we to believe him?
Yes, well, yes. So having just been involved in
two sort of the GW projects, I think, I think for nuclear, the
opportunity really is to kind of look into the future really as
to what energy demand looks like.
And I think both the Gigawalt projects I, I've been involved
in have really been focused on stabilisation of the grid and
making sure you've got big spinning magnets when you've got
kind of lots of renewables on the grid.
And, but I think the future really lies within more kind of
embedded nuclear generation around data centres around, you
know, potentially supply and other big demands across, across
the UK. And then, and then really, I
mean, we've faced 2 challenges really.
One around energy security. So I think, you know, there's a
small island need to make sure that, you know, we're in control
of our own energy supplies. And the secondly, we need to
make it affordable and we need to make it fit for purpose.
I, you know, we, we provide what the customer needs.
So, you know, if you're going to build big data centres right
near, you know, nuclear, nuclear potentially right next to big
populations, then then you need the right technology to do that.
OK. And and Nigel, you've been in
nuclear so 45 years around that, is that true that long?
I've yeah, I did start very young, I have to say that.
Yeah. Yeah, I know.
So I've seen, I mean, I've seen the industry change a lot.
I mean, I joined a Magnox Rector down in Dungeness.
I it was a 16 year old apprentice and you know, and
I've I've, I've gone, I've worked on pretty much every
technology that's survivor in the UK.
So I was, I've worked on Agls both as a station director and a
plant manager and also the PWR outsizable as the plant
managers. So yeah, I've seen the whole of
what the UK industry has to offer.
OK. I'll come back to you on that.
If I may, I would just like to add to what Nigel said.
I mean, I, I think there's been a, a huge change just in even
the last 10 to 15 years. I, I've only been in the nuclear
sector since 2014 when I joined the Baraka project in the United
Arab Emirates. And when I first moved into
nuclear then I had so many people say to me, why on earth
would you want to get into nuclear?
You know, it's a dying sector and I think it's probably the
most vibrant growing sector now. And as Nigel said, you know,
energy security, the net 0 imperative, AI and cloud
computing's all driven this. And I think as well, you know,
also back to your point about are we in a golden age of
nuclear? I think we're seeing huge
commitment from the government in the UK, governments around
the world, the US, Canada, and I think it's one of the sectors
that has genuine by parties and support.
And I think, you know, we've seen in the UK, as we've seen
with sizeable seers, Nigel will be very well aware government
commitment to investment in that, as well as the selection
of the Rolls Royce SMR. And I think the key now is what
we really need to see is a way for the government to give
private investors confidence to unlock the private capital to
help us with fleets of of reactors.
Because that is, you know, as Nigel said, the spinning magnets
in in order to get the kind of reliable base load that we need
and the capacity we need. That is really the key to that.
So I think certainly from my perspective, I would say I think
we're on the cusp of a golden era, but we're not quite in it
yet. But all all the signs are
positive and I think everybody's very optimistic about it.
I, I completely agree with that. And I, you know, this is a
really exciting time and it does feel very different from before,
not least because nuclear and sort of someones turn the, the
volume up on it. But there's new technologies.
It's, it's a much more diversified portfolio of
solution and how it can be applied, which is a real step
change to what's probably gone on from the previous few
decades. But I guess within that I think
there is and I think you may be alluding to it is the challenge
of delivery like the golden age only gets realised if we can
actually deliver to the business case.
The business case is going to be founded on a certain return on
investment on on assurance of cost schedule programme and
particularly in the UK you know, we've seen that this this big
complex infrastructure programmes, critical
infrastructure solutions, they're really hard to deliver.
And I think it's incumbent on everybody in the entire
ecosystem to be pulling together to make sure that we can find
the delivery models to de risk the critical paths on these
really important programmes so we can get to that fleet and
actually prove that these things can be done.
And that's on the backdrop, I think of international
competition for all of this, this there's there's increasing
increasingly stiff competition for resources, for technology,
for investment. Like from an investor's
perspective, there is a challenge of where my, where's
the easiest place for me to make my money when it will be those
that have managed to crack the delivery model and can stand
these things up faster and faster.
So I, again, to me, it's exciting.
I really want to see this happen like deeply, deeply for so many
reasons. And I think that means we all
have to come together and look at this very differently.
And if we feel like how we're turning up and delivering feels
like how we were delivering things 10 or 15 years ago, then
we're probably doing it wrong. And that's that to me is sort of
the litmus of are we, are we sort of heading in the right
direction? Is there much collaboration, is
there much kind of talking amongst different players in
this field to, to to kind of get to grips with the delivery
problems that have beset kind of major projects like this?
So from my perspective, yes, because I, I think, you know, to
the point that was just made there, I think we, we recognise
that this is a sector wide challenge and individual
companies are not going to crack it on their own.
I think there's, you know, we've seen huge commitment from the
government. It's, you know, we, we need some
of the policies to, to follow on some of the commitments.
Now from a finance point of view, you know, and I'm sure you
know, colleagues at WSP are at the point end of things of
trying to grow the supply chain. I mean, one of the, one of the
challenges we've got here is that we haven't had a pipeline
of new bills to keep our supply chain exercise.
We haven't had them for decades. And now we've got to work
together with the government as the sector to build that supply
chain. But the, the point here is as
well about delivery model and that is on the individual
companies to work. But we need to find these models
where we can collaborate, we can bring all of the partners to
work together to solve the problems.
And I think one of the ways that we need to do that is by looking
at what's not only been successful in alcoholic, the
Asian context in getting to the fleet, the the ends of a kind
and the benefits that they've managed to accrue, but what we
can learn from other sectors. And I think there's also a
matter of making sure that we're looking at best in practise
delivery models. But we are being, we are
focusing relentlessly on execution about for example, not
creating problems for ourselves by starting execution before the
designs complete. You know, there are some
fundamental things that we need to get right here.
But we also need to make sure that we are focusing not just on
the first first of a kind or first in country projects and
delivering that acceptable cost and time, but also that there is
a clear and demonstrable learning curve to bring the cost
down. The timing to get the real
benefits from the fleet approach for the economy, for the supply
chain, for the the customer at the end of the day.
Thanks, Karen. Nigel, what do you, how would
you respond to that? This is the dilemma that Vices
saw really, I guess for us, there's two things really.
I think there could be more collaboration between various
nuclear utilities. There's a thing we've seen as
see ourselves a little bit as competitors, you know, and I
think we should, we should probably look at that.
I think there's also a realisation that that the first
of a kind of any reactor type is really quite difficult because
you have to build a supply chain so that you you nucleus quite
unique really. And it's kind of design
sequence, which generally has to involve a supply chain.
Because you know, if you're going to do a civil structure,
you need to know how much equipment's going to weigh and
where it's where it's going to connect connections are you
going to be. If you're going to do a
mechanical electrical design, you need to know the loads of
the equipment you're going to connect to.
So you you got this kind of perverse sort of step by step
design approach where you have to engage eventually a supply
chain that's going to provide the equipment and materials that
you need. And to do that, you know, for
the first of a kind is really quite difficult to do.
But once you've done that, you know, building another one and
another one and another one becomes much easier.
And then you can really focus in on what you can do as far as,
you know, efficiencies, effectiveness.
I have a big say in here at at size.
We'll see is that yeah, I don't want to change the what I'm
building, but I absolutely want to interrogate the how.
You know, I want to do more modularization.
I want to do more factory work. I want to do more off site.
I want to, you know, explore where I I can help.
I want to explore all these things in the how I don't want
to build a different power station because I'll be but
start and you know, you know, with all of this, you really,
really hope that you know, you know, both the X energy, you
know, the Rolls Royce SMR, etcetera.
You know, gets that first of a kind off the thing and just
accepts, you know that that's going to be quite difficult.
But but you know, the opportunity then to build, have
a plan that you're going to build a series of these things.
You know, will give the industry confidence, they'll give the
supply chain confidence and that'll help us build the scares
we need as well. Is is that something you've
taken from Hinckley as well that you're bringing to Site R?
Well, well, as I say, Hinckley, you know, pioneered is the first
of a kind. So you know it it kind of has
created the supply chain, it's qualified the equipment for us.
We haven't got any of that pain that we went through.
You know, I personally was at in two Point C So you know, the
benefit that really benefits us, that's ours.
We'll see. And it'll be exactly the same
for other technologies, whether it's SMRS or IMRS, you know,
just you need to accept the first one's quite difficult.
And then that'd be that to not build more than it's almost
criminal because you've you've got all the rest of success.
So you kind of got that recipe for success, but it's something
I know Professor Ben Flubier has written about and is quite keen
on this, that idea of modularity and always, you know,
replicating within reason what's been done before because it's
efficient and it works and you know, the risks with it.
Is that something that is, is that part part of kind of
futures success once once you've done that kind of first of kind
and moving on from? There that fleets into what I
said. So to modulize you need the
design. I have the design.
If you've almost nearly built one before, because you as I
say, you need the supply chain, you need the equipment and then
you can really modulize, you know, so I agree, but but that
can only be it can't be done at first of a kind.
It's almost impossible. So much as you know, when I was
the delivery director, I think I'd love to have modulized more,
but designers? Impossible.
Yeah, and I would agree with that.
And I think that the key to the modularization is having the
standardisation. The two things go hand in hand.
And it can't just be about the standard reactor design.
It's got to be about a standard, you know, project delivery
model. And I think that's what Nigel
was saying there about, you know, interrogating the how it's
got to be the whole thing, the whole project delivery playbook,
if you like about that, just become repeatable.
And with that repeatability, you get the learning by doing.
And that's where you get the efficiency gains and and and
travel the path from the first of a kind to the end of a kind.
Yeah. And if I can add, like obviously
where I sit in the supply chain, there's a lot of the roles that
we all take is sort of helping the delivery of the sort of like
try and move as much through the critical path, move stuff off of
the critical path. And as we were saying, sort of
with a, when you're looking at the benefits realisation of this
being contingent on fleet and actually getting to scale and
that replication that you can have that all established, you
can move to standardisation, then they're the sort of
outcomes that we need to stay. And Nigel, you sort of mentioned
about you want to look at how can AI help, how can sort of
digital modularization, DFMA, how can we really ramp that up
to a point that when you're on the 3rd, 4th, fifth one, like
the whole of the supply chain is singing.
But we've also then got to look at like commercial innovation as
well. Because obviously, again, I sort
of say from a supply chain, I'm not.
And this isn't me speaking on, but you can see the tension
within that it's in, it's like a vested interest of people for
these programmes to take longer because if the contracts are set
up such that you get paid on a day rate or, you know, on time
and materials, there's these horrible prefer perverse
incentives, which can sort of really get in the way of trying
to deliver those outcomes. So, you know, you, we're
increasingly seeing it, you know, project 13, thinking
enterprise solutions, alliancing, you know, these
things are going to be critical, I think in making sure that one,
having that collaborative mindset, having that outcome
based mindset ideally would be a behavioural cultural thing that
exists deep within our industry. But the reality is, is that
people get measured on on their commercial success.
How are we making sure that we're pushing the outcomes that
we seek in a way that is truly incentivizing acceleration?
Because as we've said, we only get to fleet if the money is
still coming in. The money's only going to come
in if we can prove that we can actually get to a scaled
solution. So you end up sort of chasing
your tail. And there's a lot still to be
done to make sure that when we start rolling out these new,
particularly in the SMR space and the AMR space, how are we
incentivizing the supply chain to deliver as quickly as
possible, but adopting those outcomes and really living and
breathing the outcomes that the clients are wanting to achieve.
And I think that's like, particularly for me, still a lot
of work to be done, particularly in the UK.
Just to play into the previous conversation really, I mean
commercial confidence and certainty are combined.
So I've never met certainly a civil contractor that I'll take
a lot of risk on in the first of a kind.
You've had much easier conversation when they're doing
it for the second, third and fourth time.
I can't think it's the same with equipment supplies.
I mean, just to give you an idea of kind of some real, real data,
I mean we're seeing like probably 10% of the non
conformances that Hinckley saw through their manufacturing
process or less. Now, if you imagine you had a
you're having a conversation with a contract and now about a
fixed price contract, they're going to be much more confident
to go for a fixed contract with that level of non conformances,
you know, compared to the first of a kind, you know, 90% not
well, it's unknown, isn't it? How many?
Well, you know, do you really want it that you're really sure
you want it that accurate? So you know, you, you, you the
commercial opportunities really open up.
I think the more that you've got certain.
So you know that that's the reality.
Nobody's going to risk their business, Certainly not not all
for one. You know, I mean, you know,
these people invest, I think, and it's the same guess we'll
get on to the conversation about people at some stage.
But if you're asking to invest in a factory and you're only
going to give them one to do and they're unlikely to do it, if
you're going to give them eight to do or possibly 8 to do,
they're more allowed to invest, they're more allowed to give
certainty, the better commercial conditions you're going to get.
Yeah. And I, I think if I could just
add to what Nigel said that I completely agree with that.
And what one of the things that we're seeing is that our
customers who do want multiple units, who do see themselves
having a fleet are willing to work with us and come to talk to
the suppliers to acknowledge the fact that they will be providing
the demand signal for that investment.
But I think just coming back, if I may, to the question about the
commercial models, I think one of the things that we do need to
explore is how the commercial models impact project delivery
and its success. And one of the things that we're
exploring is the use of integrated project management.
This is something that's been used on big critical and complex
infrastructure projects, primarily in Canada.
They've adopted it. But what where it's been seen to
work really well is on the more complex projects where you're
kind of starting with the first of a kind model.
And what this looks at is bringing all of your main
suppliers together, including the owner and the constructor
into a multi party contract and looking at risk sharing with
reward sharing and incentivizing the kind of collaborative
behaviours that you were talking about a few minutes ago where
all of the partners are incentivized to escalate
problems and to deal with them together.
And what they found there is it really helps to accelerate the
delivery and de risk the project.
And I think those kinds of things, while they may be novel
in the nuclear sector because they've been proven elsewhere,
we should be seeking to explore those and encourage the supply
chain to come into the project as early as possible.
It's really interesting as an outsider from from the nuclear
world that what you're actually talking about is behaviour.
So it's that kind of incentivization of everyone
collaborating and raising problems and being incentivized
to crack on and problem solve and get on with it and work
together to fix it. And also a matter of confidence,
I think, because what I've noticed as someone outside is
that there's greater confidence in the nuclear sex society.
This country before it had very bad PR 20 years ago off, you
know, more Chernobyl and everything.
And now it, I think, would you agree that it's become very much
part of this sort of sustainability, you know, net
zero, that there's a reason people are appraising it and
seeing it in a different way and that is giving confidence as
well. Is that something that you'd
agree with that this, this has become much more a kind of
critical, critical part of the sustainability in that zero
conversation that we're everyone's preoccupied with?
Yeah, if I could come in, I think, I think those agendas are
definitely helps. I think that the changing
geopolitical landscape has also really helps sort of really make
that point super clear to the to the people of which to be
honest, whichever country you're in, how critique is to have
sovereignty over your energy supply that you've got like firm
power, yes. And then if it can also be
clean, even better. I think the agenda runs the risk
of being undermined if we can't as an industry deliver.
And then as we've seen a single tweet these days or some kind
of, I don't know, a 30 character statement can can actually
torpedo entire policy sort of agendas nowadays.
It's it really doesn't take much with the right words being said
by the right person in the right channels can really destabilise
what previously would have felt like a fairly stable sort of
policy position and and so on. So I think we mustn't sort of
have any hubris in any of this. We need to sort of make sure
we're alert and alive that we this is as you're as good as
your last game in all of this. And that means everything we do
has got to be right. I think and increasingly so
because of the the fact that we have to get to fleet.
I think it's just incumbent on us to really, really turn up and
make sure that we can maintain where I think we've got to and
then and take it further. But I also think that there are
going to be challenges, particularly with the SMRS,
AMRS, micro reactors, these really novel sort of much, much
smaller units that because you can start to locate them in what
won't have been traditionally nuclear community spaces.
People like the idea of things when it's over there, but the
moment that it actually comes close to them, people's
perceptions can change. And I think because that's what
we're entering into is potentially these things being
located in lots of places that wouldn't have traditionally have
homed. Are we doing enough to truly
educate, to engage and get the buy in and have the social
licence to operate around these things that when we are pushing
these things because the chance we're going to try and push them
fast, people don't feel like they're it's being forced on
them because again, these things could easily fall over.
So I think that's just something I think we are, again, we all
need to be watching vigilantly and being very, very proactive
and engaged. Where you have the operating
nuclear power plants, that's the heart and soul of a community.
You don't get people that are more prone nuclear.
But I think your point is right. You know, we will not get the
fleet roll out and unless we change the sighting policy and
it will be more flexible to allow us to site the the smaller
modular reactors either on an industrial facility or closer to
populations. And I think it is incumbent on
us to demonstrate the safety case and there is more community
outreach required. And this goes back to Nigel's
point at the beginning, I think about the need for collaboration
across the sector and to work with the government to make sure
that we are getting the message out there to bring the benefits.
And certainly what we seem to be seeing is that the younger
people are a lot more prone nuclear, they're a lot more
accepting the recognise as a clean technology.
But we can't be guilty of hubris around this.
We've got a lot of work to do and ultimately we have to
demonstrate that these reactors are safe to deploy, deploy close
to local populations. You know, I think we we owe a
debt relief to the existing nuclear opera as if operate
reactors in the UK safely, you know, since the 1960s, you know,
and that's that helps with our credibility.
I think, you know, I think also being honest and open is really
important part of our culture. And I think, you know, we have
to accept when you look at this, these are low carbon.
They do give you the energy security you need.
They do give you bikes load. They do, you know, provides, you
know, very well paid highly skilled jobs for many
generations. You know, there'll probably be
about 3 or 4 generations of people who work at size will
see. And you know, they do bring, you
know, a lot of prosperity to a supply chain as well, both in
support, in construction and in operation, you know, but then we
have to weigh that off. These things do generally take a
long time to build and they cost a lot of money and but they are
around for a long time. They do provide, you know, the,
the best power output per acre of any other technology.
And you, you know, and they have got that really low carbon
footprint, which I think is really important, you know, in
in the environment and world that we're in.
So, so I think we tick a lot of boxes, but we have to be very
open that that we're where there is shortfalls, we're open about
it and we deal with it. Yeah.
And I think humble in the face of what we're dealing with here.
So I think, I think we need to recognise that that we, we treat
this technology with respect. We we all do our best to deliver
them at acceptable cost and and in timeframes.
Should we move on to the people side of things because I guess 2
aspects that the people to follow up what we're just
saying. I was all sorting Nigel around
how important is engaging the local community around Sisol
Sea. I live in Suffolk and I read
locally that the you'd be investing in local kind of
skills. I think there's going to be a
college or. College on the coast is called
Yeah. Is it that's catchy, That sounds
quite nice, but it's nice that part of the case.
But how important is that? How, how, how do you go around
winning the local community? I mean, I know that they're
really used to having a nuclear facility there, but how do you
engage with the local community and sell this as a, as a good
thing for all the reasons you've stated?
And secondly, finding the people to work on these projects
because like you say, we had investments.
The UK, you know, was successful in this area in the 60s,
seventies. And I think that's lost a whole
generation of professionals who left the country and that's been
lost and it's creating it again or bringing talent from
elsewhere. So two things are people in the
local community, but also allied to building the skills you need
to create facilities like that, particularly around project
management and the opportunity there for the profession to
grow. So a lot to ask you there,
Nigel. So.
So, you know, without social licence you can't build, without
community support you can't build.
So you need to make sure you kind of listen to the community
in which you, you know, you want for your facility and you have
to understand them as well, you know, understand what drives
them, what you know, I've never met anybody that likes traffic
lights and cones, to be honest. So I mean, you have to work with
but but equally, you know, when you look, as you say, you know,
what, what communities generally want is, is, is to make sure you
protect what they hold dear. And so there's, you know,
certainly there's very different vibe from my experience at Incu
Point C compared with size. We'll see.
I think it's a different community.
They want different things. We've put a lot more effort
into, I'd say softer issues around, you know, arts and, and,
and kind of, you know, I would say kind of more peripheral
things, you know, that that you wouldn't expect a construction
project to be involved with, but, but that's important to the
lack of community. So so we we do it.
What do you mean by sorry? What do you mean by arts?
How do you get involved? We've run various programmes
where we engage in arts and locally music, you know, because
it's quite, it's quite that kind of community where, you know,
they, they even got me to play God, the voice of God in Noah's
flood. So they, you know, I mean, I'm
not a name for my autistician skills.
So you know, the so, so, but this is important.
You do that, I think and you know, certainly my other joint
managing director is much more in tune with this than me
really. But but you know, you know, you
know, really seriously. But but to get on to the point,
you know, young people want jobs as well.
You know, they want opportunity in an area where it's quite
difficult to get anywhere. So we we felt it's really
important to look at O 16 education, how you can get
people into into jobs and, but, and one of the bitter feedback
from from the local community we engaged was was your size will
be come and when you know, there was a boom and there was a bust,
how you're going to make sure you don't do the same again.
So so make sure we're leaving legacy.
We're looking to make sure, you know, the transport links we
create a really something that'd be a value later.
You know, the educational facilities that we put in place
that will be you of use later. Anything we build, we try and
look at it with through a lens of what kind of community or
others do with this after we're finished so that again, you
don't have this massive construction boom and then, you
know, there'll be some highly skilled jobs there, but it won't
cover the whole community. So perhaps I think, you know,
I'd really encourage others to do the same.
We, we've, we've worked hard. I mean, I'm not saying we're
always popular because, as I say, there's things that in
building huge infrastructure you have to, you know, 'cause some
disruption, but you know, you should look for a net game
wherever possible. What's, what's the opportunity
for the project management profession, I guess specifically
within the UK or if you want to speak beyond that is are there
enough, is there enough project management expertise in this
area? What needs to happen to make
sure that you have the right people working on on these
projects? And actually is part of that
what makes a successful project manager or project professional
working in an environment like this?
I was really my ears picked up. When you talk about openness,
transparency, collaborative kind of working, is that key to the
people? Is that key to their kind of
skill set or attitude that you want people to have that you
employ on your projects? I would say there's there
probably aren't enough and probably not enough for what is
coming. And that's not just nuclear, but
that's outside of nuclear. So if you look at the number of
Dcos that are being submitted in the UK this year.
Sorry, can you just say what? Can you just say what DCO is?
For, oh, sorry, say so, the DCO, the, the development consent
order. So these are the, the consented,
this is the consenting regime for getting major nationally
significant infrastructure programmes and projects to be
consented, to move forward to be constructed.
And there's about 35 of them being submitted this year, which
is twice the number of just a few years ago.
So, and interestingly and probably Nigel for you, the
majority of those around Suffolk, around the East of
England. So when you're actually then
mapping them and you heat map, where are all these major
infrastructure projects being deployed or actually they're
very heavily on the East Coast. A lot of that is energy related
because of a lot of the the offshore wind interconnectors
and so on. But what it means is an amazing
opportunity. There's going to be a huge
demand signal that's going to be sent out there because you're
going to need all of these, all these really complex programmes
that are all going to be being deployed all right next to each
other, all demanding the same thing, same resources, same
labour, limited supply chain. So I think actually it's going
to be a golden age for project managers because this is how are
we going to navigate what is going to become a sort of a knot
of major programmes all being delivered in parallel, all quite
close to each other. I think it's actually really
critical and all of these nationally significant
infrastructure projects, they all sort of leaning on each
other. This is all part of a systems
approach that the UK is trying to adopt and looking at sort of
what we need in critical national infrastructure systems
basis. So that sort of systems view I
think is also going to be a critical skill for really good
project managers, programme managers, to sort of really
understand the system in which they operate.
And again, experience is key. And I think the volume that's
coming, again, what a great opportunity for project managers
to get lots and lots of really rich experience that we can,
that we can use to help advance it like UKPLC as well and sort
of really, really, really drive things.
Yeah, if I may just build on that, I, I completely agree with
that. I think one of the huge benefits
about being in a project management professional is it's
a completely flexible set, you know, a set of skills and
expertise. You know, if I just look at my
own background, as I mentioned earlier, I've been in the
nuclear sector since 2014. Prior to that, all of my
experience was delivering major programmes for central
government. Big transformation projects
typically are with a big IT component in the UK and the
Middle East. And I was asked to join the NEC
Emirates Nuclear Energy Corporation project for my
programme management and project management background.
And, and I think to the point that was just made there about
the huge demand. I think one of the things we're
going to be seeing is re skilling and and mid career
transfers as well from other sectors such as oil and gas, big
capital infrastructure. But it is a hugely exciting
time. And I think the other thing
that, you know, I would say is there is a huge opportunity here
to bring more female project professionals into the sector.
You know, it females of typically being very
underrepresented in the section. We've seen a lot more interest
now and that is growing, particularly among the younger
population and a huge amount of enthusiasm for project
management careers in the sector.
Because I think somebody said earlier, the secure, the well
paid, you know, challenging in the right kind of ways and an
opportunity to do something that matters, you know, matters to
society now and will matter in the future.
And I think as a sector, we really need to lean into that
enthusiasm, you know, work together as individual
companies, as a sector with the government and, and really help
build the, the skills pipeline with skills providers to help
to, to grow the expertise in the sector.
Because I think people can have a hugely rewarding career here.
And I think we, as I said, we just need to lean into that
enthusiasm. As you said from I've recently
done a, a piece for you saying that I think project managers
are slightly underrated and as a profession and, and you know,
when you look what a project manager does, you mean it's
simplest form you, you kind of, you know, managing outcomes, but
you know, you deal with finance, you deal with reschedule, you
deal with communications, you deal with stakeholders, you deal
with massively complicated times.
Certainly in our sector interfaces you deal with
commercial outcomes. You kind of, you know, it's
hard. It sounds like you're a Prime
Minister to me. So you kind of, you know, I
think the profession offers a lot really.
You know, I'll go back. I mean, some of the huge
programme directors I've ever met, I mean some of them
previously run big businesses, you know.
So, so you know, that's the two the two things I'll link to me.
It's a great business background.
I think you know, to come in as an entry delivery project
manager and it's really open stores.
I think that's really true. And actually I've seen certainly
with, I think when you have successfully managed and
delivered a really complex programme like a nuclear GW
station, there's almost nothing you can't do as a professional.
There's almost nothing that is going to be any more complicated
than going to challenge you anymore as a programme manager,
as a project manager, like, and it's, it's so impressive when
you see those people then sort of whether they stay in the
nuclear sector or whether they then go into other sort of
sectors, how they can sort of boss it to be honest, because
it's such an incredibly rich training ground for like we've
mentioned, like the interfaces, the integration of incredibly
complex programmes. I think exactly right.
And a lot of those people actually can go off and do start
their own business, go and do anything they like.
And I just think that again, if you can get that at scale, wow,
again, UKPLC, what a what a great benefit, I think.
I wanted to ask you Stuart and the others actually, because he
talks about sort of systems and do you feel that there is a kind
of coherent cohesive UK strategy towards nuclear energy and, and
how important is there recognition of how important
that is to powering the UK economy?
So I'm surprised to to hear that you do think there is kind of a
greater joining of the dots particularly around major
infrastructure projects. Is that something that's come
from this government or do you or do you feel as a natural
trend towards this or if not, does it need to be accelerated?
Others might be able to speak more confidently to this than
myself, but certainly from from what I see, I think there's
absolutely an approach with the systems operator, you know you
would need. So there's absolutely a drive to
take a systems view of the energy system.
I think it's acknowledged that's what we need and there's some
great progress. I think when you step out, I
think there's still a lot of things that we need to get right
in order for that to actually happen.
And that's intent and doing are two sort of quite different
things. So I think there's still an
awful lot of doing. It's great that we've got the
intent, we've identified the problem and the sort of general
solution space we need. But then again, when you step
out and actually look at things that aren't in the energy
sector, but they are all buying for the same thing, I talked
about those 35 Dcos who are going to service all of those
things. Where's all that labour coming
from? All the resources, the supply
chains that need to be deployed, things like social value, I
imagine every single one of those Dcos are all, all those
projects will go through varying types of procurement from lots
of different organisations all saying they want to deliver
social value. Is that coordinated?
Like are we pooling all of those commitments in a way that can be
greater than the sum of its parts?
And you know, my suspicion and I don't know this for sure, but my
suspicion is that they're probably not aware of what this
project over here is committing or what this supplier has said
in this tender versus that tender.
And so I think there's there are some in May.
Again, it's all upside. I think the opportunity here for
us to come together and be really smart with how we can
deliver these national needs that are emerging out of these
really impressive projects, I think is is there for the
taking. Does anybody else want to add to
that? I would if I may, Emma, please.
I mean, I think there is real recognition of the role that
nuclear has to play as part of society and for the the UK
economy and the global economy. And I think there's no shortage
of technologies to help deliver that.
And I think the government has clearly demonstrated its
commitment through the financial commitment reached FID in June
this year. On size, we'll see.
And with the procurement of the Rolls Royce SMR product as well.
I think though in terms of your question about is there a
strategy, I think there's some of the building blocks that we
need to make sure that we do get a cohesive strategy.
I mean, just some examples. So I think we need an indication
of the quantum of nuclear that's required.
So by that I mean how many gigawatts like like we saw to be
fair, the last government had said 24 gigawatts.
And I think the reason we need that is it makes it real for
everybody. It makes it real for the supply
chain in particular. I think you know, to to leverage
on some of the points earlier. We need to make sure there's a
new sighting policy that's more flexible in allowing where the
reactors can be deployed. We need a financial framework
that helps to unlock the private capital by de risking first in
country projects or or first of a kind.
And to the point that Stuart was just making an industrial
strategy that helps to support investment in supply chain and
in skills. And I think also, you know,
coming back to regulation, we we need the, I'll call it removal
of some of the regulation that may be stifling safe progress
rather than enabling it. And I'm not in any way
suggesting that we, you know, lower our standards or we take
away any of the independence of the of the regulator.
But you know, if, if I just give you an example, in, in the
United States, we've seen clear commitment from the government
about shortening the regulatory period.
We've been given an 18 month construction permit application
window, which is the shortest that's ever been given.
And I think, you know, a lot of collaboration between the UK
regulator, the US regulator, the Canadian regulator to help
streamline that process. So I think that cohesive
strategy will only come if we get all of these building blocks
in place. And I think it's all recognised
and it's been worked on by the government.
But I don't think we're quite there yet with a a countrywide
strategy. It is is my perspective on.
Yeah, I think most people would agree with you, Nigel.
Was there anything you wanted to add?
Well, just, I mean, I, I agree with what Carol has just said.
I, I just just to go back to the point around national strategic
infrastructure projects sort of kind of working together.
I think with in Suffolk we are actually doing that.
So if you look at the lot of renewables, grid upgrades, stuff
that's going on in Suffolk and as we'll see, are working
together, but but it's been done through, I guess need rather
than, you know, strategic intent really.
So, you know, but, but if we hadn't done that, if we hadn't
worked with them, we would have dug roads up to us, we would
have doubled up on requirements. We wouldn't have shared
resources, we wouldn't have resource plans.
But so so I think, you know, it's important that, you know,
that need that's driven the the relationships in in Suffolk has
now taken nationwide so that we join this summer and there is
some vehicles to start to do that, especially with people.
So I mean, I'll sit on the Ambition skills board, which is
looking at construction sort of trade skills mainly.
But you know, I think, you know, the more you nationally join
these things up, the the better outcomes we'll get.
Yeah, 100% agree with that. So I mean a question I wanted to
put to all of you would be what are the biggest blockers to
continued progress and investment in nuclear?
One of those could be this lack of collaboration, maybe the lack
of people, the people available to do this.
But what would you say the biggest blockers and how would
how would you overcome them, Nigel?
If we specifically looking at nuclear, I think it's all about
certainty for me, I think I absolutely applaud what Carol
said. Pick some number that you need
what the demand LED is what you need it for.
Pick some technologies, give the supply chain confidence to
invest by giving them a number to go after.
And then we can get the people lined up as well, which is equal
input, takes as long. So it's about the the clarity of
the intent and need. Yeah.
And I would just amplify that again, I think one of the things
that are the critical thing has not just been supply side
shortage, it's been the absence of a demand signal.
And I think that's where to Nigel's point, we need that
clarity and consistency and certainty about what that is so
everybody can start to to ramp up to support it.
I mean, I couldn't agree more. You know it's.
The word I keep hearing from everyone we engage with the
certainty that you know, how can we be, how can we drive that?
How can we de risk the critical path, How do we get to fit
quicker? How do we give those signals
clearly, yeah, but that's a project sort of level.
But again, it's Carol's point, the the signals of pipeline, how
are we building the pipeline and how are we sending those signals
out so that they can see that there's a long term commitment
and that gives people that, that, that confidence.
And you know, I guess from someone in the supply chain, I
think delivery credibility is another real big piece because
that's where the the certainty comes from is because we as an
industry have turned up and have shown these things are credible.
You can construct them to a timeline, to a budget and you
can scale. And again, so come back to that.
What's incumbent on us? Well, we have got to get this
right. And I think that and get it
right. And then we've all got an
incredibly exciting industry that will probably be gunning
for for decades. And that's that's what makes it
so exciting. So, Stuart, that neatly segues
into my. Next question, which is what
does the future hold? How do you for nuclear energy
and how optimistic do you feel about it, Nigel?
Well. I'm optimistic in, in the, the
task I've been given in the sense that, you know, building a
fleet, copying what somebody else has done is really good.
I'm, I'm really hopeful around the future of other
technologies. I, I really, you know, cheer the
cheer people on from the sidelines.
I think it's really important that we, you know, providing we
get that real policy statement about what people need when they
need it by, you know, there's no reason why, you know, other
technologies can't get the same certainty.
My money advices from my experience is don't bet your
house on the first of a kind and, and just be realistic about
that. And, and I think that that's
going to be the challenge for new technologies coming in after
that. If you've got the certainty, if
you've got the programmes, you'll absolutely reap all the
rewards and benefits of of that kind of fleet.
Serious effect for a business, Yeah, I completely agree with.
That I mean I think, I think from an AMR perspective, if I
may, we've got 2 challenges. The 1st is you know as Nigel
just pointed out, the first of a kind demonstrating and for the
UK market 1st in country demonstrating that that can be
delivered at acceptable cost and time and then they become
predictable. And then the second challenge is
scaling to deliver the fleet, you know because that is the
theory of the case for SMR. So I think they are the
challenges and there's a huge prize if we can capture it and
that's what we're all working towards the moment.
So optimistic, but we've got a huge amount of work to do and I
don't think anybody's diminishing that.
Stuart, you feeling optimistic? I think the same.
I think there's a big upside. But it's not guaranteed.
There's a lot of work to be done for us to be able to prove it.
But if we can, then yes, I think it could be, you know, the
Renaissance. We think and hope that this
would be and it will move forward.
But I think we we've just got to get it right.
What's the cutting edge? Kind of.
Innovations in this area because how does fusion fit into all of
this as well? So kind of in in the future,
because I went to somewhere in England just West of Oxford
where they were decommissioning first fusion kind of
experimental plant there. And that was really interesting
to see that now there is a future in this technology.
Can it be proven to work Econography?
I don't know, but it's on that journey.
So if if you were to kind of catapult forward a couple of
decades, do you see a mix of different technologies then or
is there anything new that PAT systems haven't heard about or
or you know, might be interested in finding out about?
Yeah, I think Fusion personally has.
Got a journey to go on I think, you know, to prove the
technology works on a commercial kind of scarred boxes is there's
a bit to do from a material science point of view on as I
understand it, they profess to be an expert.
But you know, and again, you know, I think people absolutely
salute the investment that they've put me into at the time
of, you know, and the confidence that they is it's a technology
that will reap benefits for in the future.
But I thought it's any think in the next decade then, you know,
we need to focus on the other technologies and let fusion
continue to develop. Yeah, I would.
Completely agree with. That once again, I think, you
know, in a an economy that needs to be powered by abundant clean
energy, I think absolutely it could have an important role.
But I think even the proponents of fusion would recognise there
are some big technical challenges that they need to
overcome, as Nigel just cited, particularly making sure it can
work commercially at scale. And I think therefore, we can't
rely on that coming. We can't bet that that will be
the future. And therefore the task falls to
the proven technologies, including nuclear fission and
technologies that that we all bring.
Yeah, I I just think. Fission's probably going to be
doing the heavy lifting for the next decade or two while these
other technologies try and find their feet, if they find their
feet. But I for now, I think we're,
yeah, all the heavy lifting done by what we what we have in front
of us. Yeah.
Well, it's time to wrap. Up so I perhaps the nice thing
to ask each of you would be is is there a kind of lesson, a
lesson learned or any advice you'd pass on to project
management professionals looking to get ahead and in this world
I'll go to the. Voice of God first.
Nigel. You know, my advice always with
people is never stop learning. Really.
I've I'll describe over in the year 45 of my apprenticeships so
far and I learned something different every day and great
project managers, you know, learn, you know, consistently
for every experience, you know, the the the only mistake you can
ever make is making the same mistakes.
What's wrong? So you know, I you know, I love
project management. I think it provides structure,
you know, and whatever you're doing really, and you know, and
just just use that structure. Continue to learn, listen to
others. You're great teams, you know,
and what's not, what's not to like perfect Carol.
So anything you'd like to? Any thoughts you'd like to give
us? Again, completely agree with
Nigel. I mean, as I mentioned a couple
of times, I've only been in the sector for the last 11 years and
it's been the most exciting and rewarding 11 years of my career.
Absolutely tremendous. And every day is a school day.
And so for people that want to continue to learn and grow in
their career, I couldn't think of a better place to do that as
a project leader. Great, Stuart.
Yeah, I I mean I. Echo everything there and I just
think that, as I said earlier, I think once you've cracked the
nut of these big, really complex programmes like your skill set
is is really on a parter to excellence.
It's it's but you get it right here.
You can do anything really so but it does take that desire to
learn keep learning never stops being steep learning Kevin, to
be honest, when you look at the new technologies, new types of
delivery curve is probably only going to get steeper.
But you know, for those that want it, that's to me is super
exciting because it makes every day different.
Well, So what I mean I couldn't have.
Written these words myself that were brilliant.
Then my turn to podcasts. Such a positive notice of
profession. So thanks very much.
It just leads me to say thank you again for your time.
That's been a really interesting conversation and I wish we had
another two hours to I'll dive into some of the things I wanted
to ask you about. So we'll leave it there.
But thank you so much for your time.
It's been it's been great speaking to all of you.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you very.
Much thanks for the invitation. Good.
Conversation thanks again to Nigel Carroll and Stuart for.
Joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
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