1 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,240 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:21,400 the project profession. My name is Emma DeVito and I'm 3 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,760 the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,040 in this podcast. I'm speaking to Heather Walker, 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,160 Chief Operating Officer at Royal Ballet and Opera in London, 6 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,000 where she's responsible for planning and coordinating a 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,960 range of services to support the programme across technical and 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,040 production, estate, visitor experience, technology and 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,600 administration. A major focus is the renewal of 10 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,440 the estate, ensuring that sustainability is at the heart 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,600 of fabric and plant upgrades and that audiences, artists and 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,200 staff benefit from changes to the environment and the 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,680 technology running its services. Previous to becoming COO, 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,400 Heather was Project Director at Royal Ballet and Opera, so I 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,560 wanted to get her insight and advice on moving between senior 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,600 projects and programme roles and working in the executive suite. 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,640 As a bit of background, Heather's career began at the 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,760 Royal Albert Hall in London where she held a variety of 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,080 roles as Deputy Chief Executive. She led the programme to develop 20 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,080 a new operating model alongside the completion of its 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,440 redevelopment in 2004. She then moved to Australia, 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,760 undertaking major projects at Melbourne's Art Centre and on 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,080 returning, consulted for the RSC, National Theatre and South 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,200 Bank Centre. Prior to her current role, she 25 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,480 was Chief Operating Officer at the Roundhouse. 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,600 Listen on to find out about how to deliver big change 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,480 programmes, why the right culture is everything in 28 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,040 projects and why you need to be a project junkie to succeed in 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:55,640 the arts. As the COO, could you give me 30 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:00,000 your perspective of how project management fits within the Royal 31 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:06,600 Ballet and Opera House and how mature you see it as a function? 32 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,880 This is probably fair to say the the nature of what this 33 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:17,240 organisation does is a project over and over again and has been 34 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,120 for decades, hundreds of years. Because in a sense, every 35 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,480 production that either the Royal Ballet Company or the Royal 36 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,840 Opera Company, who are both the the two companies that make up 37 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,160 RBO, every production is in a sense a project. 38 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,400 I mean, it's got, you know, if it's a new production, then you 39 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,880 know, we are thinking about it years in advance. 40 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:47,120 We are hiring the creative team. We are running auditions, you 41 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,080 know, all the way through to a production manager who in, in 42 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,360 terms of a, of a theatrical show, it's the production 43 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:00,120 manager who is pulling together all of the, you know, other. 44 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,040 Is the set being made in the right way? 45 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,600 Does it, does it meet with what the designer wants? 46 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,040 You know, they, they go through many stages. 47 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,960 They, they call them gates from when something is first 48 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,520 conceived all the way through to its first night and indeed to 49 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,840 its last night. And it's being packed up and put 50 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,080 in pallets and onto a, a truck that will take it down to our 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,720 store in Wales where we keep all of our productions because many 52 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,400 of them actually come back here. Very popular productions of 53 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:38,280 Nutcracker and Cinderella and Swan Lake and Carmen and Tosco 54 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:39,920 and all the rest of it come, come back. 55 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,240 And that's, that becomes another project. 56 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,960 So we are in a sense, the sort of ultimate project junkies. 57 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:53,680 We, we are just, you know, running several concurrently and 58 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,720 planning them for sometimes more years in advance. 59 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,360 But that's probably not the kind of projects that that you, you, 60 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,440 you're thinking of when you think, well, you know, what is 61 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:11,080 project management like at RBO? And the, the, the work we've 62 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:16,000 been doing probably since open up since that big project that 63 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,839 we did to refurbish and refresh our front of house areas is, is 64 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:27,400 starting to look at the back of house infrastructure and 65 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,520 environment and particularly on stage. 66 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,760 And that all comes really on the back of that open up project of 67 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,000 saying, well, we need to do a whole lot of conditions surveys 68 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,880 now about the back of house state of our of our buildings. 69 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:49,160 And we have a long list and quite a high price tag on a lot 70 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:55,320 of stuff that needs addressing. And we decided that if we didn't 71 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,640 start by fixing things on the stage that we could see were 72 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,600 beginning to fail, then that was the fastest route to us actually 73 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,800 having a problem of continuing our operation. 74 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,600 So we have put the majority of our focus for the moment in all 75 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,720 of that stage infrastructure renewal and then beginning to 76 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,560 develop out of of of comprehensive master plan for 77 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:24,080 the entire estate over the next 78910 years to upgrade a lot of 78 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,080 equipment and infrastructure and accommodation. 79 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,920 We have three different sites. Majority of what we've got to do 80 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,680 is here, but there will be work we've got to do everywhere. 81 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,320 So that's that's what our project portfolio looks like. 82 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,320 And I guess alongside that we've got a lot of IT projects we've 83 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,520 been doing wanting to put in better technology. 84 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,400 So projects is a continuum, but in recent years it's become a 85 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:54,000 focus not just for what we do in terms of productions, but in in 86 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,440 many different areas of the of the organisation. 87 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,040 How do you see your role and responsibilities in relation to 88 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,640 all these projects going on? So I understand the project 89 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:11,240 teams report to you as COO, but could you spell out your role 90 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,000 and responsibilities when it comes to overseeing the projects 91 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,160 that are happening? I suppose First off, it is 92 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:24,720 creating an environment in which people can share their concerns 93 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,680 about things which are not working or not working as well. 94 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:32,200 How do you do that in practise or to interrupt? 95 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,840 Because that's really that taps into kind of one of the big 96 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,480 themes of APM, which is around clarity and projects. 97 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,960 And part of that is establishing the truth of what's really 98 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,960 happening in a project. And part of that is creating a 99 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,680 culture where people can speak up, as you say, that kind of 100 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,800 psychological safety. And that was one thing that 101 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,040 impressed me when I came to speak to everyone there. 102 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,320 So people listening might want to know, how do you actually 103 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,240 make that happen in daily life on a project? 104 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,400 What any advice you could. Give. 105 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:12,920 I mean, I, I suppose it's because operationally what we do 106 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:19,480 has to it, it has to have safety in mind, it has to have 107 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,400 excellence in mind. It is time bound. 108 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,880 It is financially it will have a very strict budget. 109 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,840 And if that's the environment in which you're operating at all 110 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:35,280 times, then it is about people feeling confident that they can 111 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,960 say, you know, this bit of kit is not working as well. 112 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,200 It's, it's, it's, it's starting to show signs of where it's, 113 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,080 it's, it's breakages are increasing. 114 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,320 You know, we have a very good reporting mechanism of those 115 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:55,040 sorts of things. And I think, yeah, a pretty open 116 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,320 culture about people being able to share their concerns about, 117 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,200 about things that that then, you know, that then has to be 118 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,880 scrutinised and make sure, you know, this isn't about we, we, 119 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,080 you know, we'd like the the latest new toy on that. 120 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,280 But you know, in, in the catalogue sort of thing. 121 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,840 And there are, there are competing priorities, you know, 122 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,200 there, there are lots of things that we would like to upgrade 123 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:22,720 and, and, and do in a different way. 124 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,120 So I think First off, it's if you're, if, if your operation 125 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,920 is, is quite tight and requires a lot of people to come together 126 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,520 in the moment at 7:30 every night to deliver something. 127 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,919 Then when it's not working, people are they are, they're 128 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:43,840 pretty, you know, open to saying there's an issue here. 129 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:49,640 And we can very quickly see how that it will manifest to a point 130 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,520 where the whole operation will grind to a halt. 131 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,760 You know, I remember recently we had a we had a problem in our 132 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,200 goods in lift. Now that is a huge lift that 133 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:05,000 takes an entire lorry Cavanaugh into the lift in order to 134 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,320 deliver the next pieces of scenery that are going to get 135 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,840 into the production sort of routine and get on stage. 136 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:19,760 And and it failed. And it, it was interesting how 137 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,040 quickly a, a group of people came together to say, we've 138 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,360 mapped out what we know we've got to get in and out of the 139 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,680 building in the next two weeks. And on this day at this time, we 140 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:35,400 will get to a point where we have got to change our entire 141 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,720 operation if that lift isn't back up and operating. 142 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:46,000 So I mean that that sort of really highly tuned approach to, 143 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,880 to to keeping, you know, this model of of 30 different 144 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,960 productions of upfront Valley that we do every year does mean, 145 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,360 you know, people have really clear when something is, is is 146 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,720 going to cause a problem and, and seeing that ahead. 147 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,520 But then I guess the next thing is, I suppose I have to be the 148 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,400 person who's trying to put some priority to that. 149 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:15,000 And I also need to be the person who's challenging that we don't 150 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:21,560 just fix it or replace it like for like, but what's, what's the 151 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:27,120 project here that takes us beyond what we've got now. 152 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,840 So, you know, is, is there a way of doing this that will be 153 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,520 easier to maintain, that will use less energy in the future, 154 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,200 that will require fewer people, that is connected with some 155 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:44,720 other systems that is part of an automation regime that we're 156 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,520 that we're building on. And that can sometimes mean you 157 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,280 have to do a very fast fix in order to then give yourself some 158 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,760 time to think through actually a project that is strategic and 159 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:07,040 and pragmatic and affordable but but but affordable long term. 160 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:12,520 What have you learnt about getting a portfolio of projects 161 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:17,280 like this or a programme right? Are there secrets to success 162 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,560 that you've picked up throughout your career working on projects 163 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:23,720 at cultural institutions all around the world? 164 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,680 Fundamentally, I would say the first thing is about the people 165 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,760 you know. Good project managers, good 166 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,960 programme leads, good programme directors make all the 167 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,600 difference. And that isn't necessarily just 168 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,560 the person who's got the most experience. 169 00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:52,800 It's the person who is also able to maintain that sort of 170 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,920 overview at a sort of, you know, 30,000 feet overview of what's 171 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:02,840 going on, can get absolutely into the detail and you know, be 172 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:09,640 on site, you know, hard hat in place looking at a particular 173 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:14,720 issue and can communicate to stakeholders. 174 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,480 So for me, it's you've got to be able to do the macro and the 175 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,200 micro and you've got to be able to move between those things, 176 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:27,520 being confident and genuine and engaging and commutative and 177 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,200 listening across those. So I think the people probably, 178 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,200 I mean, a lot of people talk and when they talk about projects, 179 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:39,840 they very quickly in to get into talking about process or systems 180 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,320 or, you know, everybody's got to use the same piece of software 181 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,720 or the same language. And of course those are 182 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,000 mechanisms that make the whole thing easier and means everybody 183 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:57,680 is, is sort of on the same page. But without the right people, I 184 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:03,680 don't think the systems and the processes hold you together. 185 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,720 So I I finding good people for me is #1. 186 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,360 Thank you. Do you have a particular 187 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,480 managerial leadership approach that you take as COO well? 188 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,520 When it, when it comes to these projects and some of them are 189 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:28,680 very complex and you know, we've got a very limited window of 190 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,240 particularly if they're on stage or in the auditorium or limited 191 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:38,960 window that we can get into that space without disrupting 192 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:46,080 rehearsals or performances. And I think what's really 193 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,480 important is that I understand enough about what all those 194 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,240 projects are. I don't, I'm not going to be the 195 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:52,880 person who's leading it. I'm not going to be there every 196 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,040 day, but I understand what it is that it's going to take so that 197 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,840 we can have had them really good conversation about risk 198 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,720 management and what if it overruns and you know what, what 199 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,120 are the mitigations of the contingencies we need to put in 200 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:12,240 place in advance? And then I need to, I think 201 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,040 trust the people who are delivering it so high. 202 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,800 Good people trust them don't get in their way with overloading 203 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,720 them with, you know, needing to over report to me. 204 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:31,320 And then I think being someone who they feel totally confident 205 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,840 with coming to, to say we've got a problem. 206 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,120 And so it is about trust. I think trust is a really 207 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,560 important thing in projects, being able to, you know, I, I 208 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,560 hire good people and trust them, but they trust that I, you know, 209 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,520 will be calm and only collaborative when they say 210 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,960 we've got an issue, It's got these issues, we don't know how 211 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,120 we're going to mitigate. You know, and you know, I often 212 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,840 use this phrase that if it's a success, it's their success. 213 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,680 If it's a problem, it's our problem. 214 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,200 And it's really important that they feel totally confident in 215 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,440 coming to me and going. Can we just have a chat? 216 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,080 We just need to show you something. 217 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,720 We need to talk through the the timetable again. 218 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,880 And I and I will represent that. You know, if I could go to the 219 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,520 companies, I have to go to the chief executive, I have to go to 220 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,800 the board and say something's happened. 221 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,000 They know I will front that but and I've got their back. 222 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,560 Can I ask you a bit about your career? 223 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,600 You've gone from project director at RBO to Chief 224 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,800 Operating Officer, which is a rare thing in the world of 225 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,000 project management. To reach the kind of senior 226 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,680 echelons of an organisation with a project background is rare. 227 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:01,520 How have you found that and have you got any advice to those who 228 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,560 are kind of mid senior career within projects who are looking 229 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,360 to who want to take this next step up to kind of exact level? 230 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,600 Is there anything you'd pass on? How have you managed to do it 231 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,040 and what is different now about being COO as opposed to being 232 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,800 someone purely focused on on projects as director? 233 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,200 Yeah. Well, I suppose I, I came here 234 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,320 for the open up project and and largely to make sure that the 235 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,760 operation continued during that project and that and that and 236 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,560 that we developed the operation through it. 237 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:43,080 But actually my background has been more in the management side 238 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:49,400 of things. I've just always enjoyed running 239 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,560 a department, running several departments portfolio, you know, 240 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,760 and, and running or being part of the team that's also 241 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,560 delivering projects. So that, that all the way back 242 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,680 to when I was at the Albert Hall for quite a long period of time, 243 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,280 I was the deputy chief executive there. 244 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,119 So I had a whole series of operational responsibilities. 245 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,720 But what I really enjoyed was the eight years that we were, we 246 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,720 were doing a rebuild, internal rebuild of the Albert Hall. 247 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,480 I then went on, I went Australia for a bit and again that that it 248 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,160 was, it was probably a dual role. 249 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,080 And then at the Roundhouse again was COO. 250 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:38,800 But you know, alongside running the day-to-day for me, running 251 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,640 projects as well has always been, they've always gone 252 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:49,000 together. And I personally get a huge buzz 253 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,840 out of that because I like change. 254 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,560 I like being part of not just running an organisation 255 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,960 day-to-day, but being able to look back over three or 4-5 256 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,200 years and say it's not just still running, it's running 257 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,080 better because we've done these interventions. 258 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,960 So I sort of see them as kind of two sides of the same coin 259 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,920 rather than completely different skill sets. 260 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,880 Really interesting you mentioned it's kind of the legacy you 261 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,680 leave and the sense of purpose you get from that that seems so 262 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,720 common among particularly senior project professionals. 263 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:33,160 So you love delivering change? Change isn't always easy to 264 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,480 deliver. A lot of people don't like 265 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,800 change. That's probably the most common 266 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,440 problem. Have you got any advice around 267 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,440 making change happen successfully? 268 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,920 Has you Is the biggest problem people not wanting to change? 269 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:55,360 And if So, what have you worked out that actually works well? 270 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,920 I think once again, if you can surround yourself with people 271 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:06,400 who are interested, engaged, motivated by change, you know, 272 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,000 if you're, if you're management team, my management team, I 273 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,200 think probably I'd say across the board, they're all 274 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,320 interested in delivering the sort of departmental operation 275 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,040 that they're responsible for, but continually making it 276 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,880 better. And I think that's maybe one of 277 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,680 the things I've learnt is if you can, if you can introduce it as 278 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,680 a continual rather than everybody sort of does what they 279 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,240 do for five years and then somebody comes along like me and 280 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,680 says, I think we should do it differently, which is 281 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,880 disruptive. And you know, there's a lot of 282 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,000 reason people don't like change. They're often holding on to 283 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:52,840 things which work and which if you, if you don't put the 284 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,120 analysis in, you might not realise how complicated 285 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:00,000 something is that you think you can just, you know, wipe away 286 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,880 years of people's experience and, and dedication and do 287 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,520 differently. So I think trying to make it a 288 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,600 continuum I think is helpful. I mean often. 289 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,000 I can't quite do this with you on a, on a call, but I often 290 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,200 sort of refer to my job as being, you know, if there's a 291 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,400 pencil on the table, I'm, I'm just slightly pushing it and it 292 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,880 doesn't look like it's moved much over a month, but in a year 293 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,240 it's gone somewhere. And I, I, I think that's, I 294 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:32,560 think that's part of how you deal with it. 295 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,120 I think the other thing is in my experience, there are people who 296 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:43,960 are really up for and motivated by change, but they tend to get 297 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,800 drowned out by the people who are not. 298 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:54,440 And I think trying to find a space for both those voices to 299 00:20:54,440 --> 00:21:01,080 be heard is important, but also can help both both sides of that 300 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:07,720 of that view. And I think, I think listening 301 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,320 is, you know, not assuming that if someone's going hold on a 302 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,960 second, this isn't a good idea, that it's because they don't 303 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,440 like change for change sake. And making sure that you really 304 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,080 listen to the bit that they feel is so important to hold on to 305 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,240 and, and make sure you play back. 306 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,560 OK. When we designed this project, 307 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,200 here's how I can make sure that that thing that you said was was 308 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,760 at risk and was so essential still has a place to sit. 309 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,360 I think what's interesting here is it's a big organisation and 310 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,480 there are different ways of doing projects. 311 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,200 So, you know, we have a digital team that again, like our 312 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,480 production team are constantly running projects. 313 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,320 They've even very much using agile techniques. 314 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:02,400 And at the same time, the way we've done these IT projects has 315 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,000 been different to the way we've done the stage projects. 316 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,080 And I think again, I don't, I don't have a kind of, you know, 317 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,400 I'm, I'm a fixed methodology that I think the whole of the 318 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,600 RBO have got to adopt in order to deliver successful projects. 319 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,720 But, but certainly over the last three or four years, we've 320 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,840 become more structured as partly we're doing more, we're spending 321 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,800 more money. We have to be, you know, really 322 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:38,760 clear about how we've procured, how we've risk managed, how 323 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:43,240 we've, you know, structured the project and how we assess its 324 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,800 success. But I think a number of the team 325 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,680 have been a dipped into the resources of APM. 326 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,760 Found them very helpful. OK. 327 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,040 That's great. That's a nice place to wrap up. 328 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,520 So I just want to leave me to thank you again for your time 329 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,560 been really interesting speaking, speaking to you. 330 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,960 Thank you. You're welcome. 331 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,880 Thanks again to Heather for joining us and to you for 332 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,360 listening to the APM podcast. If you're interested in finding 333 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,680 out more about project management at Royal Ballet and 334 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,280 Opera, then listen to our forthcoming APM podcast on the 335 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,200 renewals programme, where we go behind the scenes for you and 336 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,160 look out for projects Spring 2026 issue. 337 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,560 Anyway, don't forget to look out for more episodes, alter rating 338 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,520 reviews wherever you get your podcasts. 339 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,920 We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and 340 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:40,720 suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 341 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,640 Spotify users, please do also leave us your comments. 342 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,000 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the childhood body 343 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,760 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 344 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,320 visit apm.org.uk.