Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma DeVito and I'm
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
in this podcast. I'm speaking to Heather Walker,
Chief Operating Officer at Royal Ballet and Opera in London,
where she's responsible for planning and coordinating a
range of services to support the programme across technical and
production, estate, visitor experience, technology and
administration. A major focus is the renewal of
the estate, ensuring that sustainability is at the heart
of fabric and plant upgrades and that audiences, artists and
staff benefit from changes to the environment and the
technology running its services. Previous to becoming COO,
Heather was Project Director at Royal Ballet and Opera, so I
wanted to get her insight and advice on moving between senior
projects and programme roles and working in the executive suite.
As a bit of background, Heather's career began at the
Royal Albert Hall in London where she held a variety of
roles as Deputy Chief Executive. She led the programme to develop
a new operating model alongside the completion of its
redevelopment in 2004. She then moved to Australia,
undertaking major projects at Melbourne's Art Centre and on
returning, consulted for the RSC, National Theatre and South
Bank Centre. Prior to her current role, she
was Chief Operating Officer at the Roundhouse.
Listen on to find out about how to deliver big change
programmes, why the right culture is everything in
projects and why you need to be a project junkie to succeed in
the arts. As the COO, could you give me
your perspective of how project management fits within the Royal
Ballet and Opera House and how mature you see it as a function?
This is probably fair to say the the nature of what this
organisation does is a project over and over again and has been
for decades, hundreds of years. Because in a sense, every
production that either the Royal Ballet Company or the Royal
Opera Company, who are both the the two companies that make up
RBO, every production is in a sense a project.
I mean, it's got, you know, if it's a new production, then you
know, we are thinking about it years in advance.
We are hiring the creative team. We are running auditions, you
know, all the way through to a production manager who in, in
terms of a, of a theatrical show, it's the production
manager who is pulling together all of the, you know, other.
Is the set being made in the right way?
Does it, does it meet with what the designer wants?
You know, they, they go through many stages.
They, they call them gates from when something is first
conceived all the way through to its first night and indeed to
its last night. And it's being packed up and put
in pallets and onto a, a truck that will take it down to our
store in Wales where we keep all of our productions because many
of them actually come back here. Very popular productions of
Nutcracker and Cinderella and Swan Lake and Carmen and Tosco
and all the rest of it come, come back.
And that's, that becomes another project.
So we are in a sense, the sort of ultimate project junkies.
We, we are just, you know, running several concurrently and
planning them for sometimes more years in advance.
But that's probably not the kind of projects that that you, you,
you're thinking of when you think, well, you know, what is
project management like at RBO? And the, the, the work we've
been doing probably since open up since that big project that
we did to refurbish and refresh our front of house areas is, is
starting to look at the back of house infrastructure and
environment and particularly on stage.
And that all comes really on the back of that open up project of
saying, well, we need to do a whole lot of conditions surveys
now about the back of house state of our of our buildings.
And we have a long list and quite a high price tag on a lot
of stuff that needs addressing. And we decided that if we didn't
start by fixing things on the stage that we could see were
beginning to fail, then that was the fastest route to us actually
having a problem of continuing our operation.
So we have put the majority of our focus for the moment in all
of that stage infrastructure renewal and then beginning to
develop out of of of comprehensive master plan for
the entire estate over the next 78910 years to upgrade a lot of
equipment and infrastructure and accommodation.
We have three different sites. Majority of what we've got to do
is here, but there will be work we've got to do everywhere.
So that's that's what our project portfolio looks like.
And I guess alongside that we've got a lot of IT projects we've
been doing wanting to put in better technology.
So projects is a continuum, but in recent years it's become a
focus not just for what we do in terms of productions, but in in
many different areas of the of the organisation.
How do you see your role and responsibilities in relation to
all these projects going on? So I understand the project
teams report to you as COO, but could you spell out your role
and responsibilities when it comes to overseeing the projects
that are happening? I suppose First off, it is
creating an environment in which people can share their concerns
about things which are not working or not working as well.
How do you do that in practise or to interrupt?
Because that's really that taps into kind of one of the big
themes of APM, which is around clarity and projects.
And part of that is establishing the truth of what's really
happening in a project. And part of that is creating a
culture where people can speak up, as you say, that kind of
psychological safety. And that was one thing that
impressed me when I came to speak to everyone there.
So people listening might want to know, how do you actually
make that happen in daily life on a project?
What any advice you could. Give.
I mean, I, I suppose it's because operationally what we do
has to it, it has to have safety in mind, it has to have
excellence in mind. It is time bound.
It is financially it will have a very strict budget.
And if that's the environment in which you're operating at all
times, then it is about people feeling confident that they can
say, you know, this bit of kit is not working as well.
It's, it's, it's, it's starting to show signs of where it's,
it's, it's breakages are increasing.
You know, we have a very good reporting mechanism of those
sorts of things. And I think, yeah, a pretty open
culture about people being able to share their concerns about,
about things that that then, you know, that then has to be
scrutinised and make sure, you know, this isn't about we, we,
you know, we'd like the the latest new toy on that.
But you know, in, in the catalogue sort of thing.
And there are, there are competing priorities, you know,
there, there are lots of things that we would like to upgrade
and, and, and do in a different way.
So I think First off, it's if you're, if, if your operation
is, is quite tight and requires a lot of people to come together
in the moment at 7:30 every night to deliver something.
Then when it's not working, people are they are, they're
pretty, you know, open to saying there's an issue here.
And we can very quickly see how that it will manifest to a point
where the whole operation will grind to a halt.
You know, I remember recently we had a we had a problem in our
goods in lift. Now that is a huge lift that
takes an entire lorry Cavanaugh into the lift in order to
deliver the next pieces of scenery that are going to get
into the production sort of routine and get on stage.
And and it failed. And it, it was interesting how
quickly a, a group of people came together to say, we've
mapped out what we know we've got to get in and out of the
building in the next two weeks. And on this day at this time, we
will get to a point where we have got to change our entire
operation if that lift isn't back up and operating.
So I mean that that sort of really highly tuned approach to,
to to keeping, you know, this model of of 30 different
productions of upfront Valley that we do every year does mean,
you know, people have really clear when something is, is is
going to cause a problem and, and seeing that ahead.
But then I guess the next thing is, I suppose I have to be the
person who's trying to put some priority to that.
And I also need to be the person who's challenging that we don't
just fix it or replace it like for like, but what's, what's the
project here that takes us beyond what we've got now.
So, you know, is, is there a way of doing this that will be
easier to maintain, that will use less energy in the future,
that will require fewer people, that is connected with some
other systems that is part of an automation regime that we're
that we're building on. And that can sometimes mean you
have to do a very fast fix in order to then give yourself some
time to think through actually a project that is strategic and
and pragmatic and affordable but but but affordable long term.
What have you learnt about getting a portfolio of projects
like this or a programme right? Are there secrets to success
that you've picked up throughout your career working on projects
at cultural institutions all around the world?
Fundamentally, I would say the first thing is about the people
you know. Good project managers, good
programme leads, good programme directors make all the
difference. And that isn't necessarily just
the person who's got the most experience.
It's the person who is also able to maintain that sort of
overview at a sort of, you know, 30,000 feet overview of what's
going on, can get absolutely into the detail and you know, be
on site, you know, hard hat in place looking at a particular
issue and can communicate to stakeholders.
So for me, it's you've got to be able to do the macro and the
micro and you've got to be able to move between those things,
being confident and genuine and engaging and commutative and
listening across those. So I think the people probably,
I mean, a lot of people talk and when they talk about projects,
they very quickly in to get into talking about process or systems
or, you know, everybody's got to use the same piece of software
or the same language. And of course those are
mechanisms that make the whole thing easier and means everybody
is, is sort of on the same page. But without the right people, I
don't think the systems and the processes hold you together.
So I I finding good people for me is #1.
Thank you. Do you have a particular
managerial leadership approach that you take as COO well?
When it, when it comes to these projects and some of them are
very complex and you know, we've got a very limited window of
particularly if they're on stage or in the auditorium or limited
window that we can get into that space without disrupting
rehearsals or performances. And I think what's really
important is that I understand enough about what all those
projects are. I don't, I'm not going to be the
person who's leading it. I'm not going to be there every
day, but I understand what it is that it's going to take so that
we can have had them really good conversation about risk
management and what if it overruns and you know what, what
are the mitigations of the contingencies we need to put in
place in advance? And then I need to, I think
trust the people who are delivering it so high.
Good people trust them don't get in their way with overloading
them with, you know, needing to over report to me.
And then I think being someone who they feel totally confident
with coming to, to say we've got a problem.
And so it is about trust. I think trust is a really
important thing in projects, being able to, you know, I, I
hire good people and trust them, but they trust that I, you know,
will be calm and only collaborative when they say
we've got an issue, It's got these issues, we don't know how
we're going to mitigate. You know, and you know, I often
use this phrase that if it's a success, it's their success.
If it's a problem, it's our problem.
And it's really important that they feel totally confident in
coming to me and going. Can we just have a chat?
We just need to show you something.
We need to talk through the the timetable again.
And I and I will represent that. You know, if I could go to the
companies, I have to go to the chief executive, I have to go to
the board and say something's happened.
They know I will front that but and I've got their back.
Can I ask you a bit about your career?
You've gone from project director at RBO to Chief
Operating Officer, which is a rare thing in the world of
project management. To reach the kind of senior
echelons of an organisation with a project background is rare.
How have you found that and have you got any advice to those who
are kind of mid senior career within projects who are looking
to who want to take this next step up to kind of exact level?
Is there anything you'd pass on? How have you managed to do it
and what is different now about being COO as opposed to being
someone purely focused on on projects as director?
Yeah. Well, I suppose I, I came here
for the open up project and and largely to make sure that the
operation continued during that project and that and that and
that we developed the operation through it.
But actually my background has been more in the management side
of things. I've just always enjoyed running
a department, running several departments portfolio, you know,
and, and running or being part of the team that's also
delivering projects. So that, that all the way back
to when I was at the Albert Hall for quite a long period of time,
I was the deputy chief executive there.
So I had a whole series of operational responsibilities.
But what I really enjoyed was the eight years that we were, we
were doing a rebuild, internal rebuild of the Albert Hall.
I then went on, I went Australia for a bit and again that that it
was, it was probably a dual role.
And then at the Roundhouse again was COO.
But you know, alongside running the day-to-day for me, running
projects as well has always been, they've always gone
together. And I personally get a huge buzz
out of that because I like change.
I like being part of not just running an organisation
day-to-day, but being able to look back over three or 4-5
years and say it's not just still running, it's running
better because we've done these interventions.
So I sort of see them as kind of two sides of the same coin
rather than completely different skill sets.
Really interesting you mentioned it's kind of the legacy you
leave and the sense of purpose you get from that that seems so
common among particularly senior project professionals.
So you love delivering change? Change isn't always easy to
deliver. A lot of people don't like
change. That's probably the most common
problem. Have you got any advice around
making change happen successfully?
Has you Is the biggest problem people not wanting to change?
And if So, what have you worked out that actually works well?
I think once again, if you can surround yourself with people
who are interested, engaged, motivated by change, you know,
if you're, if you're management team, my management team, I
think probably I'd say across the board, they're all
interested in delivering the sort of departmental operation
that they're responsible for, but continually making it
better. And I think that's maybe one of
the things I've learnt is if you can, if you can introduce it as
a continual rather than everybody sort of does what they
do for five years and then somebody comes along like me and
says, I think we should do it differently, which is
disruptive. And you know, there's a lot of
reason people don't like change. They're often holding on to
things which work and which if you, if you don't put the
analysis in, you might not realise how complicated
something is that you think you can just, you know, wipe away
years of people's experience and, and dedication and do
differently. So I think trying to make it a
continuum I think is helpful. I mean often.
I can't quite do this with you on a, on a call, but I often
sort of refer to my job as being, you know, if there's a
pencil on the table, I'm, I'm just slightly pushing it and it
doesn't look like it's moved much over a month, but in a year
it's gone somewhere. And I, I, I think that's, I
think that's part of how you deal with it.
I think the other thing is in my experience, there are people who
are really up for and motivated by change, but they tend to get
drowned out by the people who are not.
And I think trying to find a space for both those voices to
be heard is important, but also can help both both sides of that
of that view. And I think, I think listening
is, you know, not assuming that if someone's going hold on a
second, this isn't a good idea, that it's because they don't
like change for change sake. And making sure that you really
listen to the bit that they feel is so important to hold on to
and, and make sure you play back.
OK. When we designed this project,
here's how I can make sure that that thing that you said was was
at risk and was so essential still has a place to sit.
I think what's interesting here is it's a big organisation and
there are different ways of doing projects.
So, you know, we have a digital team that again, like our
production team are constantly running projects.
They've even very much using agile techniques.
And at the same time, the way we've done these IT projects has
been different to the way we've done the stage projects.
And I think again, I don't, I don't have a kind of, you know,
I'm, I'm a fixed methodology that I think the whole of the
RBO have got to adopt in order to deliver successful projects.
But, but certainly over the last three or four years, we've
become more structured as partly we're doing more, we're spending
more money. We have to be, you know, really
clear about how we've procured, how we've risk managed, how
we've, you know, structured the project and how we assess its
success. But I think a number of the team
have been a dipped into the resources of APM.
Found them very helpful. OK.
That's great. That's a nice place to wrap up.
So I just want to leave me to thank you again for your time
been really interesting speaking, speaking to you.
Thank you. You're welcome.
Thanks again to Heather for joining us and to you for
listening to the APM podcast. If you're interested in finding
out more about project management at Royal Ballet and
Opera, then listen to our forthcoming APM podcast on the
renewals programme, where we go behind the scenes for you and
look out for projects Spring 2026 issue.
Anyway, don't forget to look out for more episodes, alter rating
reviews wherever you get your podcasts.
We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and
suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
Spotify users, please do also leave us your comments.
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the childhood body
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
visit apm.org.uk.